Dear Listener, has your relationship been rocked by a betrayal? Maybe you discovered your partner was hiding something—an affair, a secret account, or a series of trust-breaking half-truths. Or maybe you're the one who kept the secret, and now you're wondering if there's any way to heal your relationship.

This is the second episode in our Managing Thirds series, and we're tackling one of the most painful examples of a mismanaged third: betrayal. We're joined by Relationship Center therapist Shae Burnette, AMFT, who specializes in recovery from betrayal trauma. In this conversation, Shae walks us through how couples can actually heal after infidelity or other major breaches of trust, and even build a stronger relationship as a result.

Shae explains that betrayal isn't just about affairs – breaches of trust can result from withholding information that, if known, would have changed everything. This can include hidden addictions, covert spending, or omitting a quiet, inconvenient truth, like realizing you don’t want kids after all. What all betrayals have in common: one partner kept a secret, and now the other partner's sense of reality has been shattered.

We walk through the phases of healing—from addressing the betrayed partner's trauma and rebuilding trust, to renegotiating the agreements of the relationship so this doesn't happen again. You'll learn what the secret-keeping partner needs to do to regain trust (hint: it's more than just apologizing), how the betrayed partner can set boundaries after infidelity without becoming punitive, and why rushing through recovery almost always backfires.

If you're navigating betrayal trauma recovery and wondering whether your relationship can survive—or even become stronger—this episode offers a clear, compassionate path forward.

Key Takeaways

0:00 Intro

02:01 Managing Thirds: Recap

03:11 What is betrayal?

07:22 Phase One: Rebuilding Trust

29:14 Phase Two: Agreements

43:51 Phase Three: Maintenance

Resources and links

Ep. 37 - A Common Reason Relationships Fail: Managing Thirds (Part 1 of 4)

The Ten Commandments for a Secure-Functioning Relationship by Stan Tatkin (blog post)

Have a question or comment? Email us at [email protected]. We love hearing from you!

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From The Relationship Center, I'm psychotherapist, couples counselor, and

2

dating coach Jessica Engle, and this is "I

Love You, Too," a show about how to create

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and sustain meaningful relationships.

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Josh: and dating coach Jessica

Engle, and this is I Love You Too,

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a show about how to create and

sustain meaningful relationships.

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I am dating and relationship

coach Josh Van Vliet.

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On today's episode, we're gonna

be talking about how to heal

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from betrayal as a couple.

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We're so happy you're here, and please

remember that this show is not a

10

substitute for a relationship with a

licensed mental health professional.

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Hello and welcome, dear listener.

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Welcome to our second episode

in our Managing Thirds series.

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If you missed the first one

last month, I do recommend you

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go back and check that out.

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That's kind of our overview of what

Managing Thirds is, and we'll give a

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little bit of a CliffNotes version of

that today in case you missed it so that

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you're not, totally lost in this episode.

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We're joined today by Shae Burnette,

who is an associate marriage and family

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therapist here at The Relationship

Center, and Shae works with high

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conflict, betrayal cases, as well

as working with folks, who are

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neurodivergent, and queer couples.

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And Shae brings such a wonderful

combination of both clinical depth

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and, and warmth, to the work that it's

incredible to see the work that you

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do with folks, Shae, helping people

rebuild trust, repairing ruptures, and

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finding their way back to each other.

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so I'm so glad you're joining us

today to talk about betrayal and

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how folks can chart a path from

betrayal to a relationship that

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they're really excited to be in.

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so Shae, welcome to the show.

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Shae Burnette: Thank you.

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It's great to be here.

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I'm really excited to talk about

one of my favorite subjects.

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Josh: Wonderful.

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So glad.

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Jessica: Before we get started, if you

love our show, well, we love you too,

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and want to be in touch between episodes.

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To get more free dating, relationship,

and social anxiety advice, please go

38

to relationshipcenter.com/newsletter.

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Okay, on with the show.

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Excellent.

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So Jessica, why don't you start

us off with a quick overview

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of what is this Managing Thirds

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Josh: So Jessica, why don't you

start us off with a quick overview

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of what is this managing thirds

thing if you missed the last episode?

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Jessica: Absolutely.

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So thirds, this is a term that

Stan Tatkin, a, a renowned couples

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therapist coined, and it just

refers to people, things, and

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activities outside of a couple.

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The idea here is that thirds are among

the most common and dangerous threats

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to a relationship's safety and security.

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They are everywhere.

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Uh, a third could be, for example,

work or, uh, substances, uh,

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pickleball, uh, an affair partner.

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so learning to manage thirds is essential.

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We have to do it as a couple.

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And mismanaged thirds are one of the

most common reasons relationships end.

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Today, we are gonna be talking about

one of the most common and difficult

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examples of mismanaged thirds,

which is when a betrayal happens.

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Uh, the good news is there is a way

to heal from that experience, which

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is what Shae is here to talk about.

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Josh: Beautiful.

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Thank you.

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And, uh, you know, we're using the

word betrayal, and I know that that

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probably brings up a particular

kind of betrayal for many folks.

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but the way that we're holding

it is a little bit broader

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maybe than folks might realize.

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So Shae, I'd love for you to

talk about a little bit, what

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do we mean when we say betrayal?

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Shae Burnette: Yeah.

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I think I'll start by saying what

we don't mean exclusively, uh,

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because I think people have a very

narrow idea of what betrayal is.

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So, betrayal is not just infidelity.

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It's not just cheating.

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it's not just something that

happens in monogamous relationships.

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And it's not always the end of a

relationship, which I think is a

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really important thing to emphasize.

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no one has to stay in a relationship

after a betrayal, but a lot of people

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choose to, and that process doesn't

have to feel impossible or wrong or bad.

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It can feel like another responsible

choice, just as responsible as leaving

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the relationship, as long as everybody

treats it like something that we're gonna

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work on and understand why this happened

and make sure that doesn't happen again.

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Josh: I love that.

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We so frequently go to like, "Well,

you should just leave," right?

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"If this person betrayed you in some

way, why are you still with them?"

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And, that is sometimes the right choice

to make, but it discounts the folks

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for whom it is also the right choice

to stay and, try to see if there's

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a path forward to heal together.

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Shae Burnette: Yeah, I, I really

try to emphasize, like, there is no

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stigma for me with either choice.

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I don't really believe in

failure in relationships.

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Staying together is just a choice.

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Breaking up is just a choice.

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and so to talk about what betrayal

is in the context that we're

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talking about it, I often call my

betrayal cases, uh, DICE cases.

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That's discovery of information

that changes everything.

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the specific third that's

getting mismanaged in betrayal

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cases is in fact information.

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somebody has done something and

they've concealed it, whether

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for a short time or a long time.

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Uh, usually what they've done is

a violation of the agreements of

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the relationship, and they've not

shared information with their partner

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that their partner needed in order

to make fully informed decisions.

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Jessica: Great.

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So discovery of information that

changes everything, and I know

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this comes from Stan Tatkin's

approach to betrayal trauma healing.

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And what I'm wondering is if you

can give us some examples because

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a lot of people do think affair is

the only way to have a betrayal.

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Shae Burnette: Sure.

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Money is another big thing.

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I have a secret bank account

that you don't know about that

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I've been putting my money in for

years 'cause I don't trust you.

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that would be a betrayal if you find

out, "Wait, I thought we had joined

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our finances, and I thought that I

knew where all the money was going

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in our relationship, and actually

you have this secret bank account."

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Or, you know, "I have a gambling problem."

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Those are examples of

money related betrayals.

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sometimes information like, uh, "I

told you that I cut contact with this

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person that was really harmful to you

in your life, and actually, I've been

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talking to that person, and I've been

telling them things about you that you

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would not want shared with that person."

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Anything that you know that your partner

would not want you to be doing and

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you're concealing it is a betrayal.

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Jessica: Great.

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Thank you for those examples.

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Yeah, those are, those are pretty potent.

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I could feel myself feeling the gut

punch of like, "Oh, if I learned

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that Josh had an offshore account.

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Whoo!"

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We're in trouble.

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We're in

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Shae Burnette: Yeah, and it's,

it's a very jarring experience.

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Um, I think it's important to introduce

these terms up top that … 'Cause I'm

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gonna use them a lot while I'm talking

about this, that, , the person who's

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in your position in that scenario,

Jessica, the gut punched person,

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uh, that's your discovery partner.

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That's the person who's found

out that something's been going

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on that they didn't know about.

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And we call the other partner, the

person who perpetrated the betrayal,

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we call that person the secret keeper.

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Josh: That's me in this case.

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I've got the offshore account that

Jessica doesn't know about and been

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keeping the secret of, uh, where

I've been stashing my millions.

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Jessica: stashing my millions.

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Shae Burnette: Right, yeah.

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But, and Josh, we're gonna talk about

how you can repair that with Jessica.

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We're gonna make sure that you don't

keep any more big secrets like that.

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Josh: So that's kind of the lay

of the land for what is betrayal.

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where do you start with

healing from betrayal?

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Shae Burnette: So there are

stages to treating betrayal.

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there's a first phase, and a

second phase, and a third phase.

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I'll get just into the first phase of

what we need to do first is address

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the trauma of the discovery partner.

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betrayal trauma is a particular flavor of

trauma, and there are- symptoms of it you

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can look at a person who's experienced,

betrayal, and you can see signs of trauma.

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Like, uh, they often have hypervigilance.

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They're really scanning the environment

often for things that don't align,

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things that are like, "Uh, this

detail doesn't align with this detail.

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Does that mean that something's

going on that I don't know about?"

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they may feel a compulsive need to like

ask whether or not their partner is doing

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something over and over and over again.

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they may be constantly replaying

memories from the relationship, trying

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to figure out, "How did I get deceived?

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What little things should I have noticed?"

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Uh, it really attacks your belief

that you understand what your reality

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is, and it can cause people to feel,

uh, just very destabilized generally

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in their lives of like, "I don't

know if I can trust myself anymore."

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It's interesting that the discovery

partner often winds up mistrusting

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themselves as much if not more than they

mist- trust the partner after a betrayal.

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Josh: Well, that makes complete sense

to me because, You've made some decision

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that's like, "I love this person.

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I trust this person."

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And it's like, kind of calls into

question your judgment about that, right?

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"I should have known.

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I should have seen this."

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, Even if there was no reason that you kind

of, quote-unquote, "should have," right?

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That that internal dialogue

about yourself, is-- makes sense

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to me that that would be a very

natural reaction to betrayal.

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Jessica: betrayal.

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Mm-hmm.

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Shae Burnette: I hear over and

over again from discovery partners,

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"How did I let this happen?

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Why, why did this person

get away with this?

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There's something wrong with me.

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I'm a fool."

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And the reality is, like

we offer people trust.

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It's a gift.

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If somebody chooses to break your

trust, that's a choice that they made,

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and I really have to emphasize that

with people early on in the work.

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So the discovery partner's task early

on, is to, A, stop blaming themselves

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for the betrayal and to, B, do

something that we call throwing down.

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And throwing down, I guess the best

way I could encapsulate that is

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basically the discovery partner needs

to start treating their boundaries

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like just facts, just information.

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"I'm just sharing my boundaries with you.

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This is what they are.

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They're not negotiable.

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They're not punitive.

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They're not me trying to

distance myself from you.

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This is the only safe path to

closeness with me is through

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the channels that I set up."

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And it doesn't have to

be A big emotional thing.

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Like it doesn't have to be like,

"I'm exerting my power over you.

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I- I'm dominating you."

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It's just, "Yeah, if you're gonna

do this, then we can be together.

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If you're gonna do this,

we can't be together."

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Josh: And what might that look like

in our, um, uh, offshore account

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example if Jessica was, laying

down the, the law, so to speak?

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Jessica: Yeah.

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Can I, can I give it a try, Shae,

and see if I'm, I'm grasping

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everything you're saying?

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Okay.

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Shae Burnette: please do throw down.

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Jessica: I've discovered that

Josh has this offshore account.

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I-- my reality is blown open.

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I start to track his every little

move, everything that he says

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that slightly m-misattunes or

misaligns with other things.

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I go, "Is he betraying me again?"

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I contact you and I say, "We need help."

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We come in You helped me

understand, oh, this is PTSD,

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me double-checking everything.

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And okay, now I have to set some

boundaries with Josh, and it's not,

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uh, "I hate you, treat me better,"

and it's not, "I don't care.

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You can stay away.

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You can, you can move out.

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I don't care."

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It's, it's none of that, but it's if I'm

hearing the, like, centered factual, it's,

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"In order to be in relationship with me,

you need to transfer the funds from that

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offshore account to our shared account,

and going forward, you need to share

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all information financially with me and

complete this course of couples therapy.

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Those are the terms of, of

getting back in with me."

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Shae Burnette: Absolutely

beautiful throwing down.

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I would, I would love somebody to

come into my office and be that clear.

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That's so good.

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And I, I think it's, I think it's

helpful to point out that one of

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the reasons that people wind up in

situations where betrayal occurs

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is that sometimes, , boundaries in

relationships have not been made as clear

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or explicit as people think they have.

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some people just assume

that there are boundaries.

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Like I- I've … Can't tell you

how many times I've heard people

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be like, "Wait, that's cheating?

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I didn't think that was cheating,"

because there was never an

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explicit conversation about it.

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And often there's never an explicit

conversation about it because

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people are afraid of what sharing

information with each other will do.

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This is why the secret keeper keeps

secrets too, … Not because they hate

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their partner and, you know, if they

hated their partner, they would leave.

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It's because they love their partner and

they don't want their partner to leave,

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and they're afraid that if they share this

information, they're just gonna get left.

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So they think the thing to do is to keep

a secret, and I just think transparency

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is like the best way out of this.

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Everybody has to be honest.

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Josh: And

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Jessica: There is often a family

system that the secret keeper has

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come from that just tells secrets.

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That's just what they do.

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Everybody's trying to get their needs met

in a system where things aren't really

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addressed directly, and so it's just

kind of what's been modeled for them.

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Was that

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Shae Burnette: Yeah, absolutely.

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Oh, yes.

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And sometimes I even, uh, I run into

folks who have ADHD who grew up in a

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household where they received a lot of

criticism and judgment and scrutiny,

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and their survival tactic in that family

growing up was, "I gotta keep secrets.

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I gotta not tell people, because when I

tell people things, they get angry at me."

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And, there's so many different

reasons why a secret keeper may

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have developed this behavior.

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we call it self-interested behavior, and

it's prioritizing the comfort, the feeling

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of safety of that individual over the

comfort and safety of the relationship.

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and in order to address the betrayal

trauma of the discovery partner, the

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secret keeper has to start demonstrating

that they can behave differently,

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and that means being completely

open and honest and transparent.

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They need to come forward with

the information, not let the

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information get discovered.

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It's one of the early things that

we do in this kind of therapy.

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Uh, you may have heard of the practice

of people writing each other letters.

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in some versions of betrayal therapy,

people will write letters like, "Here's

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everything I did," and the discovery

partner, "Here's everything I feel."

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I don't do the letters thing.

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I, I believe that people need to be in the

room together to do this stuff, because

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y- your nervous system is registering,

"I'm not safe," and you need to be face

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to face with your partner reestablishing

that safety and reteaching your nervous

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system, "Actually, I am safe here.

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I'm safe to tell the truth to this

person," if you're the secret keeper,

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and, "I'm safe to trust this person

again," if you're the discovery partner.

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So early on, I sit these couples down.

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I have them look at each other, and

I have the discovery partner just

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ask every question that they have.

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And if they can't think of more

questions, I'll think of more questions.

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We just need to get all the information

out now, because there's nothing worse

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than re- reiterating that gut punch

that you talked about earlier, Jessica.

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Like, you don't want there to

be like, "Oh, in addition to the

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offshore account, I also bought a

speedboat that you didn't know about."

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Jessica: Josh.

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Josh: Sorry.

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It was just a speed boat.

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I thought it wasn't a big deal.

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We didn't have an agreement

about speed boats.

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Jessica: about Speedboats.

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Shae Burnette: explicitly said that

you couldn't buy a speedboat, right?

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Josh: Exactly.

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I thought that was fair

game in our relationship.

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Jessica: in our relationship.

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Shae Burnette: yeah

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Jessica: Oh.

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Josh: yeah, no, that, that

makes so much sense, right?

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It's like…

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And I can, I can picture in the, in

the secret keeper's role, like, "Oh,

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I don't wanna share that thing."

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"I've said most of the stuff.

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, That one doesn't really matter, but I know

it's gonna hurt if they find that out.

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But it doesn't really matter,

so I'm not gonna share."

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It's like getting that out so it's not

a week later or a month later, like

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it finally comes out 'cause they're

asking more questions, and then you're

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Shae Burnette: Yeah.

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Josh: the betrayal all

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Shae Burnette: And the, the other part

of that is that, like, obviously we've

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established that there's misunderstanding

in this relationship already.

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It's a poor assumption that the secret

keeper actually knows what's important

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to the discovery partner at this point.

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if you think you've shared all the

important details, you probably

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haven't actually, 'cause you don't

know what's important to your partner.

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So it's very important for the

discovery partner to set the pace

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of, "This is what I wanna know."

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And sometimes discovery partners

don't wanna know particular

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details, and that's okay.

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There are certain details that I'll

always ask, in infidelity cases.

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Uh, I'll say like, "Do you want details

about the sexual encounter or not?"

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And the discovery partner gets to decide

whether or not they want that information.

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Jessica: makes

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Josh: so

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Jessica: what

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Josh: I've got so far, right, is that

the discovery partner needs to set, here

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are the terms for engaging with me, in a

relationship and, then in the beginning

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of this process, asking all the questions,

understanding everything that's happened.

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Uh, what is the-- I think you

started to speak to this, but I'd

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love to hear a little bit more.

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What does the secret keeper need to do, in

order to rebuild trust with this person?

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Shae Burnette: Right.

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So the secret keeper needs to, like

I said, divulge everything that

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the discovery partner asks about.

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You gotta answer questions

when they come up.

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If your partner has a question for you

at 1:00 in the morning in the middle

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of the night, you're gonna wake up

and you're gonna answer that question.

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And, you're not going to make

countermands with your partner.

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You're not gonna say, "Well,

I did this, but you did this."

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Eh.

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Not happening.

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We're focusing on the discovery partner's

trauma in this phase of treatment.

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There is no back and forth.

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You'll get to have that later when

we get into the second part of this

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treatment where we're restructuring the

agreements of the relationship to make

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it stronger and more resilient against

this kind of behavior in the future.

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But for now, we're changing

the secret keeper's behavior

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patterns from self-preservation

to relationship preservation.

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You're gonna do things that are healthy

for the relationship, and what's

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healthy for the relationship right now

is addressing your partner's trauma.

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So that means, you're not rolling

your eyes when your partner has

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a big feeling or is feeling,

um, paranoid of like, "Oh, ugh.

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You went out last Tuesday, and I didn't

know where you were for like two hours."

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Like, the secret keeper really needs

to remain neutral and not have a

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big emotional reaction to that.

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, It's tough work.

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It's really, really hard.

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in some ways, I think the secret

keeper's part of this work can be

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harder than the discovery partner's.

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And then I think about it and I'm

like, "Ah, no, it's all really hard."

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Jessica: all hard, and, and

I hear what you're saying.

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There's, uh, in some ways more of a

burden on the secret keeper to be doing

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behaviors that are new and challenging.

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Um, so it's, it-- more

of a load in that way.

371

And That seems appropriate.

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Like the whole idea I hear of this first

phase is balancing things out again,

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like rebalancing the, the playing field.

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Is

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Shae Burnette: Yes,

there's been a power…

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Jessica: field?

377

It's a

378

Shae Burnette: I mean, I'll take it,

379

yeah.

380

A, an imbalanced playing field

would be hard to play on, for sure.

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Jessica: Yeah.

382

Shae Burnette: yeah, no,

it's, it's totally like that.

383

There's a power imbalance, right?

384

There's a power imbalance between the

secret keeper and the discovery partner

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because the secret keeper has information

that the discovery partner doesn't

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have, and therefore, the secret keeper's

making decisions that are fully informed,

387

and the discovery partner is working

with like not a full deck of cards.

388

They're, they're just like guessing at

what they should and shouldn't be doing.

389

So we have to readdress the power

imbalance and- The, uh, you know, I say

390

that it's hard for the secret keeper, but,

discovery partners have a surprisingly

391

difficult time throwing down sometimes.

392

, Uh, I'll give a little parable.

393

I see this happen a lot.

394

So, couple comes in and the discovery

partner is, like, so proud of having

395

continued to cook meals, celebrate this

person's birthday, take them to their job.

396

the discovery partner is like,

"I'm sticking by my, my partner,

397

and I'm so proud of myself.

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I haven't changed anything

about how we relate.

399

We're still having sex.

400

Like, I'm not, I'm not

punishing my partner.

401

Look at me not punishing my partner."

402

and that's still in this mindset

of, , good, bad, punishment, reward.

403

We've gotta get out of that and just

look at what works and what doesn't work.

404

And if the discovery partner, uh,

has wound up in a relationship with

405

someone who has a lot of self-interested

behavior, they may have a lot of

406

self-sacrificing behavior that they

need to unlearn, and that can be

407

really, really tough sometimes.

408

Sometimes discovery partners just

wanna rush through phase one.

409

I've actually had more discovery

partners be like, "Hey, uh,

410

can we go to phase two now?

411

I, I forgive them.

412

Let's go."

413

And I'm like, "Well, it's

not really about forgiveness.

414

Forgiveness is a piece of it.

415

It's about are you still

having trauma symptoms?

416

And until you're done having the

trauma symptoms, we have to really

417

treat you like the person who needs

help and support and to be the focus

418

of this relationship right now."

419

Jessica: a great point, and it makes

me wanna revise what I said earlier.

420

Both have a load, like you said, in

terms of practicing new behaviors.

421

I can totally see how somebody who maybe

got into a relationship with someone

422

who's prone to keep secrets needs to

unlearn martyrdom, so to speak, right?

423

Probably had that modeled a

lot when they were growing up.

424

It can be very uncomfortable to, to

move into assertiveness if you've

425

learned early on that that's not

what you're supposed to be doing

426

Shae Burnette: Absolutely.

427

And there's a million

different flavors of this.

428

I feel like, you get secret keepers

who feel like they don't have

429

any power in the relationship.

430

You get discovery partners who feel like

they've been overbearing historically.

431

there's all different versions of this,

and we always just need to move it back

432

to the middle of like, okay, is what's

going on right now working or not working?

433

Is this functional or

is it not functional?

434

And putting the value judgments on

it, i- it's just gonna perpetuate

435

the cycle, 'cause that's where it's

coming from is the value judgments.

436

Jessica: Right.

437

I imagine that for

438

Josh: the discovery partner, part

of what may make it very hard

439

to do what we're talking about

here is facing the possibility

440

of the end of the relationship.

441

That in order to, to, to kind of throw

down like we've been talking about,

442

like be really clear, "This is what

needs to happen in order to be in a

443

relationship with me," you have to

be willing to leave, essentially.

444

You have to be willing to say,

"Okay, if this doesn't happen…"

445

Like, this isn't an idle threat.

446

This isn't like a, "If you don't do

what I want, then I'm gonna, like,

447

get mad and stomp my feet more, but

I'm not actually gonna go anywhere."

448

It's like, we're in deal breaker

territory where if you do not do

449

XYZ, like I know that I can pick

up and leave, and I will be okay.

450

You know, I'll grieve and

whatever, but I'll be okay.

451

And it's a hard thing to do, I

would imagine, for, for many people.

452

Uh, I imagine, is that-- Yeah,

is that part of what you see?

453

Shae Burnette: totally.

454

I definitely see discovery partners and

s- secret keepers both feeling like,

455

"Gosh, we don't even know why we're in

this anymore, but the end of it would

456

be the scariest thing in the world."

457

, And I…

458

Sometimes I tell couples, you

know, like, "Everybody can stop

459

being careful with the Fabergé egg.

460

It's in pieces on the floor.

461

You don't have to tiptoe anymore.

462

we already broke it.

463

And weirdly, we broke it by being

careful in an unproductive way."

464

, So yeah, the discovery partner does

need to be ready to throw down, and that

465

sometimes means, "Hey, if realistically

we can't change our behavior and create

466

a functional, safe relationship for

each other, we might have to split up."

467

But again, to me, that's not failure.

468

To me, that's just really deep

knowing of what needs to happen.

469

Like, great, we tried it.

470

It worked for as long as it

worked, and then it didn't.

471

Josh: Yeah.

472

If the

473

Jessica: a discovery partner is

really having a hard time throwing

474

down, what do you tend to suggest?

475

Like my mind goes to like maybe

they need some individual support.

476

but what is it that helps somebody move

from that kind of ambivalent space to

477

being really clear about their boundaries?

478

Shae Burnette: Yeah, I mean, I definitely

think that if you can have individual

479

support, while you're in this work,

whether you're the discovery partner

480

or the secret keeper, it's very, very

helpful to have some individual s-

481

support outside of the couples therapy.

482

Um, if you can have an

individual therapist, great.

483

there are groups for people

who have been through betrayal.

484

Getting into a group would be great.

485

but another way that we can help

the discovery partner throw down is

486

reshaping the discovery partner's

concept of boundaries as well.

487

both partners in this relationship,

like we said, may have a belief that

488

boundaries are pushing away or punitive.

489

And if we can reconfigure the discovery

partner's concept of their own boundaries

490

as like, "Oh, no, no, this is, this is

how I teach people how to be close to me."

491

and it often requires them to

regulate their nervous system.

492

In the face of their partner being upset.

493

you have to be ready for your partner

to be uncomfortable with the fact that

494

you have a line that can't be crossed,

and you have to get ready to, together

495

as a couple, go through those moments

of discomfort and come out the other

496

side going, "Okay, that was fine.

497

We both got dysregulated.

498

That's okay."

499

Jessica: Yeah, great point.

500

And I just wanna name that, you know,

if you are a discovery partner listening

501

to this and the idea of really stating

your boundaries and staying regulated

502

in the face of your partner's distress

sounds impossible and is dysregulating

503

in and of itself, you know, a l-

a lot of people who struggle with

504

assertiveness have trauma histories,

and it was scary to set boundaries.

505

And so in that case, I would

highly recommend, trauma-oriented

506

individual therapy because it's not

just learning a skill, uh, you know,

507

learning a communication skill.

508

It's actually learning how to calm

your nervous system, as you said.

509

Shae Burnette: Absolutely,

yeah, which is a really tough

510

task, but totally doable, right?

511

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

512

Josh: Well said.

513

Okay.

514

So, so far we've got…

515

We've talked mostly, I think,

about phase one in this approach

516

to healing betrayal trauma.

517

And what I'm gathering, if I can just

sum up from phase one, what I'm hearing

518

is it's really all about supporting

the discovery partner to heal, and that

519

that's really the focus, and you don't

really move on until essentially the

520

symptoms of trauma, have, been alleviated.

521

Is that right?

522

That's right.

523

And

524

Shae Burnette: phase one, we wanna

make sure that the discovery partner

525

has healed from their trauma.

526

They're showing much, much

reduced trauma symptoms, right?

527

Like not nearly as much hypervigilance.

528

They're feeling more comfortable.

529

They're feeling like

they're able to trust again.

530

And the secret keeper has

hopefully examined their behavior

531

and come to understand why did

I do this in the first place?

532

Why do I behave this way?

533

And they're starting to behave

differently, That is usually what

534

causes the betrayed partner to

not feel traumatized anymore, is

535

that they see more trustworthy

behavior from the secret keeper.

536

Jessica: Well, so what I'm

understanding is, okay, we've

537

done the first part of this work.

538

Uh, i-in this ex-example, Josh

has, uh, communicated everything

539

there is to communicate about

the, uh, speedboat, was it?

540

Josh: Speedboat- Speedboat … the,

the secret account.

541

Jessica: Uh, yeah.

542

Anything else?

543

Josh: I've put the account back into-

544

Jessica: You've moved the money

545

Josh: The money.

546

I've, uh, sold the se- speedboat.

547

Uh-

548

Jessica: Um- Mm-hmm.

549

You've answered all my

questions at, at 1:00 AM.

550

Josh: Yep.

551

Jessica: Yeah.

552

Uh, non-defensively.

553

Yeah.

554

Um, you've really shown up, uh, indicating

that you can be in the role of kind of

555

the bad guy while I'm, healing, right?

556

and so then we're ready to move

on because I'm, I'm, like, not

557

tracking you so closely anymore.

558

I'm, I'm really, like, starting

to feel more at ease, and I'm

559

actually trusting myself more.

560

You're actually expressing some

insight about why you did this.

561

Why did you do this, Josh?

562

That's

563

a

564

Josh: great question.

565

I've been reflecting on this quite

a bit as we've been in this process

566

and, you know, my family had a lot

of secrets around money growing up.

567

There was a lot of instability ar-around

money, and I felt like I'd-- I've

568

done this, you know, since I was--

I had a little, like, stash of money

569

under my mattress as a kid 'cause I

didn't know if there would be food.

570

Jessica: Okay.

571

Okay.

572

Josh: Okay.

573

Okay.

574

Jessica: so have we officially finished

the first phase of the work, Shae?

575

Shae Burnette: Yeah, it sounds

like we're ready to move forward.

576

Um, I especially like that Josh is

able to name why he did what he did,

577

and he's able to do it without shame.

578

That's really important.

579

there are a lot of big feelings,

obviously, in phase one, and one of

580

the things that I'm there to help

people do is to reduce shame, right?

581

To steer us away from shame, because

shame is not a mobilizing emotion.

582

It's an immobilizing emotion.

583

Guilt might be mobilizing,

remorse might be mobilizing,

584

but shame is not mobilizing.

585

So Josh is able to look at

what he's done and go, "Yeah,

586

okay, that's why I did that."

587

And that is a place from which Josh is

able to grow and do something different.

588

So now that we're in this place

where Josh is ready to grow and do

589

something different, and Jessica's

not feeling traumatized anymore, now

590

we can get into phase two, which is

how do we structure this relationship?

591

How do we make agreements that

we both actually agree to?

592

And how do we maintain those agreements?

593

How do we negotiate them as we go forward?

594

What does it look like when

an agreement needs to change?

595

, And how do we make sure that all

the agreements that we think we're

596

making are explicit, they're clear,

they're on the table, and we've

597

both actually talked about them?

598

They're not just assumptions that

we have in our head for how our

599

relationship is supposed to work.

600

Josh: Is this the phase where I

get to share all of my complaints

601

about Jessica's behavior?

602

Jessica: behavior?

603

Shae Burnette: You do get to

start talking more in this phase

604

about things that you need in the

relationship and things that aren't

605

working for you in the relationship.

606

I would caution the secret keeper not

to go overboard and, like, totally

607

redirect into, like, "Now it's time

to tell you why it's all your fault."

608

but that's why everyone waits to go

to phase two until it's clear that

609

we really have integrated this stuff.

610

It's not just a performance.

611

It's like, "No, I really do, I can

take accountability in a neutral,

612

shame-free way, uh, for what I did,

and I understand my part in it and

613

I understand your part in it, and

I'm not blaming anyone anymore."

614

Josh: Mm-hmm.

615

We should probably mention just briefly,

like phase one can take a while, right?

616

Like we're not talking like a

couple of weeks for phase one.

617

It's like

618

Shae Burnette: Oh, yeah.

619

No.

620

It takes a long time.

621

It takes a long time, and it

takes as long as it takes.

622

And, I said, clients, sometimes just

the discovery partner, sometimes the

623

secret keeper, sometimes both, are

like, "Hey, let's go to phase two.

624

We're ready."

625

And, , you know, I've had my missteps in

my early days of doing this where I've

626

let people go to phase two 'cause I'm

like, "Well, great, you guys feel good."

627

and it's only been, like, a couple

of months, and then it happens again.

628

We have a second betrayal, and it's like,

oh gosh, all the way back to square one.

629

That sucks.

630

So it's really important to take it slow

and to be very thorough about, "Okay,

631

do I really feel a deep sense of change?

632

Are my behaviors different

than they were before?

633

Do I have different emotions than

I did when we went into this?"

634

It has to be more than just like, "Yay,

we're in our reconciliation honeymoon,

635

and we're flying around on butterflies."

636

Like, you have to be in a grounded

place to move to the next step.

637

Jessica: I'm really hearing in what you're

saying, Shae, that this process, even just

638

the phase one, if you can get through it,

can turn a betrayal into an incredible,

639

uh, and I, I don't mean to be, uh, too

rosy about this, but an incredible,

640

like, healing opportunity, right?

641

It can really force a level of

healing that maybe a couple wouldn't

642

have gotten to any other way.

643

Shae Burnette: Yeah, absolutely.

644

That's one of the things I love about

this work is that it kinda makes me

645

optimistic about relationships in general.

646

, There's no such thing as the worst thing

that ever happened in a relationship.

647

There's just new information, and a

more informed couple is a happier,

648

healthier couple in my mind.

649

If we can discover what's really going

on, we can move forward together,

650

and everybody, everybody knows

what's going on, and they feel safe

651

Jessica: Yeah.

652

Yeah, and I wanna name that that can

also mean still separating, right?

653

Going through the process,

determining actually I don't

654

wanna be in this relationship.

655

I know some discovery partners, that's

where they land within phase one.

656

And still, it is healing and beneficial

for the, the subsequent relationship.

657

Josh: Yeah.

658

And Mm-hmm.

659

Shae Burnette: they want out as well.

660

It's totally legitimate and valid

for a secret keeper to look at

661

what they've been doing and say,

"Boy, I'm not ready to go forward."

662

And, .. there's a particular

instance, I've actually seen this

663

happen a few times, discovery

partner is doing that, "I'm so proud

664

of myself for sticking with you.

665

I would never leave."

666

And the secret keeper looks uncomfortable,

and they don't like it when the

667

discovery partner is saying that.

668

And then one day the discovery partner,

we're trying to throw down and,

669

and they get there, and they do it.

670

They throw down.

671

They're like, "You know what?

672

No.

673

I'm really angry, and I'm, I'm

taking something off the table.

674

I don't wanna do X, Y,

or Z for you anymore."

675

And the secret keeper

676

Josh: And then one day

677

Shae Burnette: And I'm

thinking, "Oh, rejection, hurt.

678

What, what is this feeling?"

679

And I ask, and the secret keeper

will say, "I feel relieved.

680

I'm really glad there's a

point at which you will leave.

681

I don't think I'm good for you.

682

I don't want you to put

up with this anymore."

683

And sometimes people will come

to that conclusion even if the

684

discovery partner is still in it.

685

Sometimes the secret keeper

is like, "I'm not ready.

686

I'm not ready for this

relationship with you.

687

I can't do it."

688

Jessica: Gosh, what I hear in that is

the secret keeper having a taste of a

689

relationship that's not a repetition

from early in their lives potentially.

690

A relationship that is actually

collaborative and equal, and that that

691

might really be relieving, be healing,

be corrective, and I could imagine being

692

in that position and having a taste of

that and being like, "Oh, that's what

693

relationship's supposed to be like.

694

I'm supposed to have something to

push up against, , a wall that won't

695

just fall over if I do something,

that I shouldn't be doing."

696

Shae Burnette: Yes, absolutely.

697

And everybody needs that, right?

698

Like, we all need boundaries

and agreements in relationships

699

in order to feel safe.

700

Josh: Which brings us nicely back

to phase two, which is all about

701

setting clear, mutually agreed upon,

agreements for the relationship.

702

Is that right?

703

Shae Burnette: Yeah, absolutely.

704

Yep.

705

Jessica: My question about this for you,

Shae, is my mind immediately goes to like,

706

"Okay, are we talking like, 'Don't cheat.

707

We agree, don't cheat.

708

We agree, uh, Josh, we agree we

don't have secret accounts.'"

709

Is that what we're talking about?

710

Josh: Probably

711

Shae Burnette: gonna be a little

bit more specific than that.

712

That might be a broad one that you have.

713

There's usually layers to this.

714

So, the big rule might be nobody

has a secret account, right?

715

and the sub-rules under that, we sit

down and review finances together.

716

Here are the practices that we're

gonna develop as a couple that help

717

us both trust that what is supposed

to be happening is what's happening.

718

and also you're gonna talk about how do

we have the conversations about this.

719

Like, okay, I need to get Jessica

a really cool present, and I need

720

to save up some money for that.

721

I'm gonna set aside some cash in

a sock drawer, and if she finds

722

that, she might freak out, right?

723

Josh: Um, and so

724

Shae Burnette: I still wanna do the

surprise for her, so the best thing to do

725

is, have you guys talked about surprises?

726

Are they allowed in the relationship?

727

Does the discovery partner

want a surprise at this point?

728

I don't know.

729

Jessica, do you want Josh to surprise you?

730

Is it worth it?

731

Josh: bit more

732

Jessica: it is worth it.

733

I, I do love a good surprise.

734

Josh: saving up for a speedboat for you.

735

Jessica: for you.

736

Too soon, Josh.

737

Too soon.

738

Shae Burnette: Right.

739

So, like, if you can ha- if you can

just have the conversation, like…

740

I, I sometimes have couples, like,

go wild with your imagination.

741

Come up with theoretical situations

because the reason we got in

742

this situation before is 'cause

everybody imagined that it wasn't

743

ever gonna get to this point.

744

So let's imagine a lot of different

things that could happen, and let's just

745

kinda weatherproof the house against

all these different things that might

746

happen, all these different outside

forces that might impact the relationship,

747

and how do we deal with them together,

and what's our general principle for

748

how we communicate about these things?

749

Like, what, what is a secret and what

isn't a secret in this relationship?

750

Like, let's really make sure that we are

on the same page, we're defining terms

751

the same way so that there can't be

misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

752

Jessica: I know that Stan has the Ten

Commandments for Secure Functioning

753

Couples . One of them is, we

share everything with one another.

754

Um, And so I'm also wondering in here, I

hear there's a kind of drilling down into

755

the specifics, and is there also a kinda

like zooming out to the more general?

756

Shae Burnette: well, uh, you

want the relationship to have

757

not just things that we don't do,

but also things that we do do.

758

So- That's important too, like getting

on the same page in this phase about like

759

what are the values of this relationship?

760

We've got, here's like the you

know, 10 rules for what, what we,

761

what we don't do, and then here's

the 10 things that we do do.

762

Here's our guiding lights.

763

Here's like what we do do is we share

information with each other very openly.

764

What we do do is we spend quality

time together and make sure that,

765

you know, we're getting to see

and hear a lot of each other.

766

what we do do is we make sure

that each other's needs are

767

met to this extent, right?

768

, Or maybe we give each other a

little bit of space if we've been

769

over-functioning and over-taking

care of each other a little bit.

770

So yeah, it's, it's not just the

things that are against the rules,

771

it's the things that are the goals.

772

Like, this is the gold standard.

773

This is how we wanna treat each other.

774

Josh: And for our example, it might

be we combine all our finances.

775

That's one of our shared agreements.

776

And y- like you're saying in the drilling

down piece, we might be, uh, we sit down

777

together weekly to review our budget

together, and we, make shared decisions

778

about spending above $50 or something.

779

Or we-- Since you like surprises,

we're gonna set aside, you know,

780

100 bucks for surprise gifts,

and we have that so that you-

781

Jessica: I think we could increase

782

Josh: 100, I think.

783

$1,000 for surprise--

$20,000 for surprise gifts.

784

much is a speedboat?

785

Here

786

Shae Burnette: bit more than

787

$1,000, Josh.

788

Josh: Uh, we set aside X amount of

dollars for a surprise gift and, I have

789

a credit card that I use that you don't

look at because it's for surprises, but

790

we review the statement, once a quarter

together or something that such that you

791

have transparency into that, uh, without

-- ruining the surprise of the gift.

792

Jessica: of the gift.

793

Mm-hmm.

794

Shae Burnette: That's great, yeah.

795

And, and, uh, this is where

you gotta get creative, right?

796

I love that.

797

yeah, I can have this credit card, but

we're gonna review it once a quarter.

798

That's the kind of creativity

that you need in this phase.

799

a couple have to really be able to like

imagine together to get through this part.

800

Josh: Okay.

801

Right.

802

So now, Shae, I, I do have some

complaints about Jessica's behavior

803

as well, which is part of what has

contributed to my, secret keeping.

804

Jessica: Oh,

805

Josh: this when I get to share that?

806

When do I get to share that, Shae?

807

Shae Burnette: You can start sharing

that now, but it's very important, and

808

hopefully we've modeled this in phase

one for you, that when we tell Jessica,

809

"Here's the things that aren't working

for me," it's not I'm trying to shame

810

you as revenge for all the shame that

I felt in, in the first part of this.

811

It's again, I'm giving you information

so that we can do things differently.

812

Jessica: Okay.

813

Shae Burnette: very important

that you frame it that way, right?

814

Josh: So I have some information

815

Jessica: information.

816

Okay.

817

So, um, one of

818

the things that I have noticed in

819

Josh: s- one of the things that

I have noticed in our, in our

820

finances is that I get worried

about your spending on Bitcoin.

821

Jessica: Ah.

822

Josh: And I worry that maybe

you're putting a little bit too

823

much of our money into Bitcoin,

824

Jessica: into Bitcoin.

825

Mm-hmm.

826

Josh: and that that's gonna crash at

some point because it's an unstable,

827

unregulated, uh, basically gambling thing.

828

I mean, Bitcoin's an excellent

829

Jessica: I mean, Bitcoin's

an excellent investment.

830

I think we've, we've talked about this.

831

Josh: about this.

832

Well, no, we haven't, actually.

833

That's part of the problem.

834

Jessica: problem Is this, is

this relatively real, Shae?

835

This, uh--

836

Shae Burnette: Oh, this is great.

837

I'm, I'm waiting for you guys to finish

it out and, and come to the new agreement.

838

I, you're doing a perfect job.

839

Jessica: Yeah,

840

yeah.

841

Um, okay.

842

New agreement.

843

We should have a new agreement,

it sounds like, because there's,

844

uh, concern here that- Yeah … we

need to agree on something.

845

I

846

Josh: I'd like to diversify our

investment strategy a little

847

bit more than just Bitcoin.

848

Jessica: a little bit

more than just Bitcoin.

849

Okay.

850

All right.

851

Uh, great.

852

Let's do, uh, Bitcoin

plus some mutual funds?

853

Josh: funds?

854

Jessica: How about,

855

Josh: how about we give you,

like, a little pot of money

856

Jessica: Yeah.

857

Give me a pot of money

858

Josh: of money.

859

Little.

860

Little pot of money

861

Jessica: in Bitcoin.

862

Josh: for investing in Bitcoin.

863

Mm-hmm.

864

Jessica: And

865

Josh: And then we'll, we'll

maybe talk to a financial advisor

866

about how to plan for retirement.

867

Deal.

868

Deal.

869

Jessica: Deal.

870

Josh: Great.

871

Shae Burnette: You did it.

872

Jessica: Woo-hoo.

873

Shae Burnette: Awesome.

874

Yeah.

875

Good sharing information.

876

Maybe rag on Bitcoin a little

bit less next time, Josh.

877

that, that that didn't quite

feel super neutral, but

878

it was, it was, it was close enough.

879

Josh: That's good feedback.

880

Yeah, that wasn't very neutral.

881

I s- I still have some strong

feelings about Bitcoin that I need to

882

process with my individual therapist.

883

Uh, okay, so is there anything

else that we're doing in phase two?

884

Or is that, is that the heart of it?

885

We're agreements, agreements, agreements.

886

Shae Burnette: Yeah, that's the

heart of it, and honestly, it's

887

more work than it sounds like.

888

It's…

889

That's a very complicated part.

890

As you might imagine,

relationships are big.

891

They encompass a lot of our lives.

892

There's tons to talk about

893

Josh: Especially if there are things

that you didn't think that you needed to

894

make agreements about, that you're just

learning now, "I need to make agreements

895

about these things because apparently

we're not on the same page about what

896

constitutes a betrayal, what constitutes

infidelity, what constitutes, you

897

know, keeping secrets about finances."

898

So I'd imagine that could then…

899

You might, uh, apply that

to a lot of areas of life.

900

It's like, "Well, I didn't know

that we needed agreements about

901

this, so we should probably also

talk about this, this, and this."

902

Shae Burnette: Absolutely.

903

Yeah.

904

And it's that thing of we're gonna

make sure that not only are we

905

talking about everything, but that we

understand what we're talking about.

906

There's a lot of checking

in in this phase.

907

There's a lot of me being

like, "Now wait a minute.

908

Did you hear what they said?

909

And did they hear what you said?

910

And do you both agree on what that means?"

911

Like, that's huge in this part.

912

Josh: Yeah.

913

That's such a key skill, and it makes

sense that you'd really need to hone

914

it in this stage, to, to be successful.

915

So where do we go from here?

916

Is this, is this-- Are we, are we done?

917

If we've made our agreements, we're

just, like, skipping off into the sunset?

918

what, what happens from, from here on out?

919

Shae Burnette: So after phase two, phase

three starts to look a lot more like just

920

sort of conventional couples therapy.

921

You're coming back to talk about

the agreements that you've made.

922

You're doing maintenance.

923

This is when some people

are gonna graduate.

924

They're gonna say, "Great.

925

We did it.

926

We, we came up with our new agreements.

927

We've done a little bit of time

with the new agreements to make sure

928

that they're all sustainable for

us, and we're both feeling calm.

929

Uh, all of the betrayal trauma stuff

is way behind us, and we're ready to

930

just, like, start off like this is a

new relationship to some extent because

931

we've totally renegotiated everything."

932

Um, and that is when some people choose

to move on, and then some people are

933

like, "Hey, we wanna stay in treatment

because we just wanna have that safety

934

net of a place to come back to."

935

For some people, the strategy is,

like, this room is where we talk

936

about this stuff 'cause it feels safe.

937

My goal is for me to just be training

wheels, and y'all go off and do your

938

thing at some point, but couples

get to determine what that point is.

939

Jessica: Beautiful.

940

Josh: that we haven't talked about

yet around healing from betrayal

941

that you, you wanna mention?

942

Shae Burnette: I think

we've got everything.

943

Jessica: Okay.

944

So Josh and I have made all of our

agreements about, uh, Bitcoin and

945

surprise gift funds and- Shared

946

Josh: Shared accounts

947

Jessica: accounts, et

cetera, not keeping secrets.

948

And we say, "Shea, thank you so much.

949

This was really, really hard, and we're

a different couple because of it."

950

Josh: Does

951

Jessica: sound

952

Shae Burnette: I say, "Yeah."

953

And I say, "Great.

954

It was wonderful working with

you, and go out there and keep

955

being a new couple all the time."

956

A relationship is a choice that we make

every day, and it's always growing, it's

957

always changing because we're always

growing and we're always changing.

958

And hopefully the new version of your

relationship that you've built is strong

959

but flexible, and it can accommodate

the growing versions of the both of you.

960

Jessica: Mm.

961

Mm-hmm.

962

It's beautiful.

963

Amen.

964

Josh: yeah.

965

Well, I hope that, you, dear listener,

listening to this, if you are in the midst

966

of trying to heal from betrayal, this

gives you at least a little bit of hope,

967

uh, that it's possible, that there's a

direction, that there's support out there

968

that can make this not easy, but, uh,

easier and, and at least doable, right?

969

There's, there's a way forward.

970

So, Shae, thank you so much for joining

us today and sharing your thoughts

971

and your expertise in this area.

972

love hearing you talk about

this, and I think it's gonna

973

be super useful for folks.

974

Shae Burnette: having me.

975

I'm glad I got to talk about it.

976

Josh: And that's all for today.

977

You can find the show notes with links

to all the resources we mentioned in this

978

episode at relationshipcenter.com/podcast.

979

And if you have a question or

980

Jessica: And if you have a

question or comment, email us at

981

[email protected].

982

We love hearing from you.

983

Josh: If you'd like to work with

one of the talented clinicians

984

on our team, including Shae,

go to relationshipcenter.com

985

to apply for a free

30-minute consultation.

986

Jessica: You can also sign up for a

monthly email of our best content at

987

relationshipcenter.com/newsletter.

988

And if something in this episode

touched you, will you share

989

Josh: And if something in

this episode touched you, will

990

you share it with a friend?

991

That helps us reach more

sweet humans like you.

992

Lastly,

993

Jessica: Lastly, we'd love it if you

would leave us a rating and review

994

wherever you listen to podcasts.

995

And be sure to hit subscribe while you're

there so you never miss an episode.

996

Josh: Until next time, we love you too.

997

Bye.

998

Bye.

999

Jessica: Shae, Shae, Shae, Shae,

Shae, Shae, Shae, Shae, Shae,

00:47:40,401 --> 00:47:43,331

Shae, Shae, Shae, Shae, Shae.

00:47:43,571 --> 00:47:43,801

Shae.

00:47:43,851 --> 00:47:43,911

Josh: Whoo.

00:47:44,211 --> 00:47:44,471

Whoo.