Dear Listener, does communicating with your partner sometimes feel like an uphill battle? Do you find yourself saying things you don't mean—or struggling to say what you do mean without it landing as an attack? What if there were a way to communicate that actually brought you closer, even during conflict?

In this episode, we're joined by Relationship Center therapist and couples counselor Nicole Penrod to explore Nonviolent Communication (NVC)—a powerful framework for transforming how you and your partner talk to each other.

Nicole breaks down the basics of NVC (also called compassionate communication), originally developed by Marshall Rosenberg. At its core, NVC helps us move from reactive, judgmental communication to empathetic, connecting conversation. Think less jackal (defensive, fear-driven) and more giraffe (big-hearted, slow, and steady).

We walk through the four steps of NVC—Observation, Feeling, Need, Request (OFNR)—with real examples, including Jessica getting pretend-mad at Josh about socks on the floor. You'll learn why "I feel abandoned" isn't actually a feeling, how to set your partner up for success (and vice versa!), and why asking for what you want can help heal attachment wounds.

If you're tired of the same old fights and ready to communicate with more compassion—for your partner and yourself—this episode is for you.

Key Takeaways

0:00 Intro

06:07 What is NVC?

10:45 What are the NVC basics?

18:28 Name the Need

21:04 Requests Without Demands

32:01 How do I actually use NVC with my partner?

Resources and links

Decolonizing NVC

1. Book: Decolonizing Non-Violent Communication
2. Podcast episode with the author: https://www.skepticspath.org/podcast/decolonizing-nonviolent-communication-with-meenadchi/

Feelings and Needs Lists: https://www.sociocracyforall.org/nvc-feelings-and-needs-list/

Nicole’s favorite video introduction of the basics: https://roxannemanning.com/an-introduction-to-nvc/

On the 4 listening modes: https://seedofpeace.org/nvc-introductory-articles/four-ways-of-listening/

Have a question or comment? Email us at podcast@relationshipcenter.com. We love hearing from you!

If you’d like to work with one of the talented clinicians on our team, go to relationshipcenter.com/apply-now to apply for a free 30-minute consultation.

To get a monthly email with our best content, go to relationshipcenter.com/newsletter.

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I'm really, mad because, you left a lot of laundry on the floor.

2

Josh, all of your dirty laundry

you've left on the floor.

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That

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Josh: was almost too skillful.

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You're already, you're already

naming what you're feeling.

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Jessica: true.

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That's true.

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Yeah.

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Maybe it's more like

you really are a slob.

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Josh: you go.

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Good.

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Perfect.

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Nicole Penrod: Yeah.

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Very violent.

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Jessica: Yes.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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From the relationship Center, I'm

psychotherapist, couples counselor and

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dating coach Jessica Engle, and this is I

Love You too, a show about how to create

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and sustain meaningful relationships.

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Josh: I'm dating and relationship

coach Josh Van Vliet.

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On today's episode, we're gonna be

talking about nonviolent communication for

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couples with special guest Nicole Penrod.

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We're so happy you're here.

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And please remember that this show is

not a substitute for a relationship with

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a licensed mental health professional.

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Hello and welcome dear listener.

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We're thrilled to be joined today

by special guest Nicole Penrod.

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Nicole is an associate marriage and

family therapist, dating coach and

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couples counselor here at the relationship

center, and they specialize in helping

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anxious folks build self-confidence and

especially love supporting social anxious

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folks, trauma survivors and unconventional

couples, as well as queer creatives.

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And Nicole is joining us,

today to talk about nonviolent

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communication for couples, a

particular passion of yours, Nicole.

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So welcome.

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Nicole Penrod: Thank you so much.

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I'm so excited to be here.

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Josh: We're so thrilled to have you.

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Jessica: Before we get started, if you

love our show, well we love you too

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and wanna be in touch between episodes.

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To get more free dating relationship

and social anxiety advice, please go

42

to relationship center.com/newsletter.

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Okay.

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On with the show.

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Josh: Alright, so, Nick, we're talking

about nonviolent communication, also

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known as NVCA thing that many people have

probably heard of at some level of depth,

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even if you just heard the term before.

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But I'd love to hear from you, why do you

love this so much, especially for couples,

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and what impact have you seen it make

for some of the folks that you work with?

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Nicole Penrod: Yeah, I think a lot

of people would've experienced or

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encountered NVC in the realms of

mediation or, sometimes at work, I

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have really loved bringing it into the

room with couples that I work with.

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There was, a couple that I had been

working with who, when they came in,

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one of the communication issues they

were running into was the fact that they

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were trying really hard to express their

needs to each other, and they didn't

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use the term nonviolent communication,

but they were trying kind of a version

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of it, but they kept bumping heads.

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And when they explained to me what

they were doing, the way that their

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expressions of needs were coming

forward, really were preventing them

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from actually hearing each other.

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So I'll give an example of

what this can sound like.

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Uh, we're having a conversation, I'm

getting really worked up and I say at

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some point trying to be vulnerable.

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I really need you to hear what I'm

actually saying and not what you're

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hearing or what you think I'm saying.

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That might be a vulnerable

expression of a need that I am

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feeling arise in me in that moment.

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But my partner is not going to

be able to hear almost anything

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aside from an accusation, right?

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You're not listening to me.

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And the more that we are using

needs as an expression of judgment.

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Back and forth, the more stuck we're

gonna feel, even if we're trying so,

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so, so hard to get the right words.

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So with this particular couple, I brought

in NVC as a way to really expand the

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vocabulary around needs and root us in

a different framework where everything

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I need, you need everything you need.

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I also need, we're not actually

accusing each other of anything.

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We're trying to be understood

and understand in return and.

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It's still a technique

that they use to this day.

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It's something that I think has

been really transformative in their

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communication and has allowed us to

go so much deeper in the work because

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we're not getting stuck in these

conversations where they're just bumping

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back and forth like a pinball machine.

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We can actually get down into what

they need to transform to feel better.

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Josh: Beautiful.

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And so it sounds like on the other

side of that, they're able to share

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more vulnerably in a way that the

other person can really hear them

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and take in, 'cause it isn't landing

as an accusation, it isn't landing

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as, there's something that I'm doing

that's wrong, but rather, oh, you're.

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Being vulnerable with me, and I can come a

little bit closer because of that, and we

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can really see how do we get both of our

needs met well, am I getting that right?

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Nicole Penrod: Yes, absolutely,

and there's also a side effect of

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a lot more empathy for yourself.

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When I'm really trying to connect

with what do I actually need and

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what is feeling vulnerable inside of

me, what do I need to be listening

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to or hearing internally to be able

to communicate compassionately?

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Suddenly, I'm much kinder to myself

because I'm understanding, oh,

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there's something that I need.

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It's not anyone's fault.

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It might not be this person's fault.

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It might not be my fault.

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But I still am able to communicate and

make a request and hopefully team up

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with my partner to get that need met.

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Jessica: Yeah, that's the piece

that I'm hearing the most in the

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story that you're telling Nick,

is we're on the same team, right?

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Nonviolent.

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I think is a kind of an intense term.

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A lot of people, I think make

fun of that part of the name.

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And there it captures something

real, very real, right?

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Which is there can be a way we

get into communication cycles that

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are really about, I'm against you,

you're my opponent, rather than we're

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here together solving a problem.

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Josh: I love that.

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And I love the piece that you're

naming also, Nick, around.

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developing more empathy for

yourself, in the process?

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Certainly in my experience, trying to

identify what I need it can be hard

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sometimes and to really like get down

to like, oh, what's the thing underneath

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my, complaint right now that I'm needing?

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And it can feel a little vulnerable

to really sink down to that.

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So I love that that aspect of like,

there's this side effect of like.

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It's also good for you, not just for

your relationship with your partner.

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Well, we should probably at this

point define like, what is NVC?

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What are we talking about here?

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So let's, yeah, why don't we start there.

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Nicole Penrod: Yeah, so nonviolent

communication, also often referred to

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as compassionate communication, partly

as a response to, as Jessica noted

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people's feelings about the name, which

are a little bit all over the board.

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It is a framework, it's

a communication model.

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It's a practice that prioritizes

identifying how we can extend

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empathy to ourselves and others

through understanding our needs.

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You'll hear a lot in nonviolent

communication trainings or in readings,

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the idea of giraffes and jackals.

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Giraffes are the big hearted

creatures, who are able to eat

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branches with thorns because of the

resilience of their lips and tongue.

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So they were chosen as the

representative for the Nonviolent

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Communicator because they're able

to navigate thorny conversations

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while maintaining like a really open,

big heartedness in those moments.

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And the jackal is the often quite

defensive if we think about it in

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our nervous system regulation frame,

fight or flight kind of creature that

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has a really hard time regulating

themself, is often speaking from

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a place of judgment and fear.

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Rarely is malicious, but is trying to get

their needs met in a conversation without

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a consciousness of what they're doing.

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In nonviolent communication,

we try to be giraffes.

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We try to move slowly.

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We try to lead with the heart and

with empathy, we try to lead with

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understanding ourselves and others.

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There are specific communication

strategies and skills that

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come out of NVC, and we'll

talk about some of those too.

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But at its root, it's really a philosophy

of one way that we can communicate.

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And I'll note too, invented

originally by Marshall p Rosenberg.

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There's like the original

nonviolent communication book.

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These are also ideas that come

from many, many different cultures.

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It borrows a lot from Buddhism,

from mindfulness, so you'll

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also hear a lot of that in here.

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It feels like more, a coalescing

of a lot of ideas about how to be

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good to each other in conversation.

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Josh: As I'm hearing you talk

about jackal versus giraffe.

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I imagine part of how you look

at that is like we all have

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a little bit of jackal in us.

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Like we can all be a jackal

sometimes, and that part of the work

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is to be a little bit less jackal

and a little bit more giraffe.

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Is that a fair assessment or fair take?

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Nicole Penrod: Yeah.

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Well, and I think even more than

that because we try not to use

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these as identities, really.

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It's how frequently can we

put on our giraffe ears and

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talk out of our giraffe mouth?

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Josh: Yeah.

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Love that.

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Nicole Penrod: Can we use this as like

a lens or a frame that we're putting on?

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Because none of us are gonna be

really either of these things

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a hundred percent of the time.

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Josh: Yeah.

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Beautiful.

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Why does NVC work?

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Like, I could hear somebody listening

to this and be like, well, compassionate

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communication, that sounds nice.

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That sounds like a good thing to do.

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But , why this particular approach?

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Why is this one effective?

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Nicole Penrod: At a most basic level,

you're more likely to get what you want if

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somebody feels like you understand them.

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So this is why it's used a lot

in mediation and negotiations.

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If I really, really actually want

my partner to listen to what I'm

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saying and not like twisted in their

head, somehow I need to A, be able to

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communicate what I'm saying effectively

and find some way to say what I mean.

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And b, I need to help them feel like

I am listening and I care about them

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so their defenses can come down.

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And nonviolent communication

offers us a path to do that.

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It would be amazing if we were

all being giraffes all the time.

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Uh, but one question I get a lot is

if I use nonviolent communication

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and someone else isn't using it, am

I gonna get steamrolled and trampled?

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And this comes up a lot

with my couples, right?

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If one person's kind of tapped in and

trying to use the skill and somebody

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else isn't, and they're just having

a moment, they're not regulated,

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they're struggling to be present.

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Who wins.

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I put that in scare

quotes, that conversation.

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But NVC not only isn't about winning, it

actually, improves our odds of everybody

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coming to a solution that we all like.

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And within the frame of a romantic

relationship, the solution that we all

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want is to feel closer to each other

and to move through conflict in a

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graceful and kind and compassionate way.

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We're not trying to pretend we're not

feeling something or that we don't need

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something, but it's a way for us to

actually make ourselves known clearly and

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appropriately without stoking a fire or

activating things more than we need to.

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Jessica: It seems like now would

be a good moment to go over.

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Like, what is NVC in terms of the basics?

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Like, what is it?

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Actually sound like

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Nicole Penrod: So I usually break

this up when I am teaching it to

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clients into the listening modes and

the communication sort of template.

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So the listening modes,

there are four of them.

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And the simplest way that I can

think to explain them is empathy in.

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Empathy out judgment in judgment out.

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So empathy in might sound like, oh,

I'm feeling really stressed right now.

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That makes sense.

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I had a hard day.

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Let me just take a breath

before I say anything.

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Empathy out might sound like, wow, this

person is maybe coming at me kind of hard.

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They must have had a really

rough day or a really rough week.

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They must really be feeling like

either I'm not showing up for

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them or listening, or like they

just need somebody to actually

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care about what they're saying.

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Again, let me take a

breath before I respond.

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Judgment in however, might sound like,

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geez, I always do this.

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God, I'm so frustrated about this.

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I'm like sick of myself.

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I wish that I had said something

sooner because now I'm in this

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position and that's awful.

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And judgment out probably is gonna sound

like they always do this or God, you sound

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so like rude and judgmental right now.

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I can't even take in what you're saying.

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So those are the listening modes, and I

work with clients sometimes on identifying

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those where we can and asking them a

lot, how are you interpreting this?

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What are your thoughts coming up as

you're hearing this person speak?

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And are there ways in which we

can pause and recalibrate the

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mode and see what that changes?

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The conversational template, I

think is one that this is where

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a lot of people start with NVC.

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I think it's actually one of

the more sophisticated skills

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that needs a lot more nuance.

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So if you're on day one of NVC and

you're like, I am going to do my

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OFNR, which is observation, feeling,

need request right now with my

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partner, here I go, and then your

partner's like, why do you sound like.

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A robot that kind of scared me, that's

where we sometimes run into trouble.

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So OFNR is a set of four skills

that you can use together.

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You can also use them separately.

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And these are the foundation of how

we speak nonviolently to each other.

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O is for observation.

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Without judgment.

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The way we'll often hear this framed is

imagine there was a camera in the room.

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And it was watching, what would it

register about what just happened?

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It could be the words that someone

said, it could be the posture they took.

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I'm not interpreting it, I'm just

saying, here's what I observed.

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That created a reaction in me.

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The next bit is feelings, and this is

also gonna be feelings without judgment.

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A big, tricky, tricky piece of NVC

is that we try really hard not to use

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feelings that masquerade as judgments.

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When you raised your voice,

I felt really disrespected.

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What I'm saying is, I felt like you

disrespected me, or that you don't

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respect me or that you should respect me.

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That might make it harder for someone to

hear me, even if that's how I felt, right?

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I felt abandoned because you abandoned

me, versus I felt frustrated or I

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felt, even better than that angry,

or I felt hurt, or I felt scared.

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We're getting like further and further

down, and this is something that I think

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mileage is gonna vary depending on you and

your communication style and your partner.

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But it's an interesting frame

to hold for a little bit.

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The N in OFNR is needs.

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These are universal, basic human needs.

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They are one to two words, and they are

things that all of us as people need.

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Our most basic basics are gonna be

things like shelter, food, bottom

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of the hierarchy of needs, right?

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Water, security and safety are

often gonna go down there too.

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And then we can also

go in other directions.

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As a human, I need fun and play.

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I might also need peace.

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I might also need respect

to some degree, right?

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And so I am really trying to sort

through what's the need that is

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not getting met in this moment?

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What is the need that I have

that is activated right now?

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And then the last piece is a request.

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And the request and nonviolent

communication also has a few

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subcategories categories.

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Category one is it's a positive

request, so I need to ask for something

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I do want, not something I don't.

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Rather than, Hey, can you not be on

your phone when like we're having a

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conversation, I might say, I'd really

appreciate it if you could give me your

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full attention while we're talking,

so I'm giving you something to do.

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The other piece of it is it has a wind

condition, and the wind condition is not

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when I'm satisfied, because if I ask,

Hey, can you be better about this thing?

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And then I eventually get to decide

either you were or you were not.

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That's creating a dynamic in a hierarchy.

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It's putting me in the power position,

which is again, gonna make it hard

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for this person to truly hear and

see me, and for us to communicate

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on the same team as equals.

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Instead, it might be, Hey, for

this week, can we do like a

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15 minute cleanup before bed?

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And then at the end of the week, if

we've done a 15 minute cleanup every

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day, we both independently can determine,

yes, the thing was accomplished.

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We did it.

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High five, go team.

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And then I get to say

like, thank you so much.

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That was amazing.

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That feels a lot better.

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Can we continue this?

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Or How did you feel about it?

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And again, we're making these decisions

together, so I might have an idea, but

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I'm not enforcing, a tyranny of some

sort over the health of our relationship.

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So that's the OFNR.

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That's the base communication strategy.

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Jessica: Yeah, I mean those were great

examples you gave within each category.

315

I remember when I was teaching

OFNR to various couples,

316

each one would really take.

317

A whole nuanced conversation

to really explain why.

318

'cause it is a very particular

way of communicating.

319

I imagine it would be helpful

to hear an OFNR put together.

320

So maybe we can start with in

an ineffective communication

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and then turn it into an OFNR.

322

So let's see.

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What can I get mad at Josh about?

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I'm, I'm.

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I

326

Josh: I'm

327

Jessica: not actually

pulling from real life.

328

Let's see.

329

I'm making up that.

330

I'm really, mad because, you left

a lot of laundry on the floor.

331

Josh, all of your dirty laundry

you've left on the floor.

332

That

333

Josh: was almost too skillful.

334

You're already, you're already

naming what you're feeling.

335

Jessica: true.

336

That's true.

337

Yeah.

338

Maybe it's more like

you really are a slob.

339

Josh: you go.

340

Good.

341

Perfect.

342

Nicole Penrod: Yeah.

343

Very violent.

344

Jessica: Yes.

345

Thank you.

346

Thank you.

347

Okay, Nick, help me.

348

OFNR.

349

Nicole Penrod: Yeah.

350

So, what did we observe you

kind of said this earlier,

351

pot, some laundry on the floor.

352

What happened?

353

Did you walk in and see a

pile of laundry on the floor?

354

Did you wake up and notice

that stuff was everywhere?

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What did you actually observe?

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Jessica: I've been walking

through every room of our house

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and there are dirty socks on the

floor of every room of our house.

358

Nicole Penrod: Wow,

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Jessica: Mm-hmm.

360

Mm-hmm.

361

Nicole Penrod: great.

362

And well done.

363

if true, that's huge.

364

So

365

Jessica: Is this part of a

nonviolent communication you like?

366

As you go through, you assess

as the therapist whether the

367

thing is like really bad or not

368

Nicole Penrod: Exactly.

369

And then if it is really bad, I look at

the person who did it and I'm like, bad.

370

great.

371

Okay, so you've made the observation.

372

Now we talk about the feeling.

373

What is the emotion that came up

in you when you noticed, okay,

374

there are socks everywhere.

375

Jessica: Yeah.

376

I mean, I named it earlier.

377

I was, I'm mad.

378

I'm, I'm mad.

379

Mm-hmm.

380

Mm-hmm.

381

Nicole Penrod: Okay.

382

The next part I think is the hardest one

for people who are unfamiliar with NVC to

383

be able to do quickly, which is what need

either wasn't being met or got disrupted

384

by, I'll also say, you can say was being

met, we can use it in a positive context.

385

When you're mad, it's unlikely

that you're like, and it met

386

my need of socks everywhere.

387

But in this case, right, what need

got disrupted when you made this

388

observation and this feeling came up?

389

Jessica: My need for Josh to be clean.

390

Nicole Penrod: Okay, so

great example of a judgment.

391

Jessica: You're welcome.

392

Nicole Penrod: Yeah, and I think this is

where people go really all over the map.

393

What I'll often do is I'll actually

give clients a list to start with.

394

So that they have a sense

of what the bounds are.

395

And then as we progress, I also

might ask either them or their

396

partner, this is advanced mode

to suggest a couple of options.

397

Or I can step in and help a little

bit as a therapist too, right?

398

I might note, okay.

399

Common ones when we're talking

about cleanliness could be peace.

400

If it feels like this is really chaotic

and it's bringing stuff up for me.

401

Order.

402

If this is a need we all have, some

people have a, a bigger cup to fill

403

with the need for order than others, but

we all have it at least a little bit.

404

Aesthetic pleasure.

405

That's another need

that we have as people.

406

Do any of those resonate for you, Jessica?

407

Jessica: Yeah, I need order and peace.

408

Mm-hmm.

409

Nicole Penrod: So we can say.

410

I need order and peace in the home.

411

We can also, we don't have to use that

exact clinical language every time.

412

We could also say something like, I

was really noticing that I tend to

413

feel a lot better when things are

orderly and peaceful and that felt

414

kind of threatened by this situation,

or, it just had me feeling off

415

because of these needs that I have.

416

Jessica: Hmm.

417

Nicole Penrod: So we can get a little

bit more casual with it, and this is

418

where we start to get up to the more

advanced levels of, I'm just communicating

419

my need in a way that it comes to me.

420

But I think at the base level

here, yeah, it could be.

421

Okay.

422

I walked around every room in the house.

423

I observed that there were socks

in every room on the floor.

424

I feel pretty mad.

425

I really do need peace

in order in the house.

426

And then we come to the request.

427

Often an early request will

be something like, can you,

428

tell me what you heard me say?

429

Or, like, what do you,

what do you hear from that?

430

Can you validate me?

431

We're not always gonna ask it

in that exact way, but we're

432

looking for a connection, right?

433

A confirmation of understanding.

434

And then the positive

request we might make.

435

What would be helpful to you, Jessica,

that has, a wind condition that has sort

436

of a start and an end point that would

help meet your needs for peace and order

437

in the house that you could ask of Josh,

438

Jessica: I don't know if I'm

gonna do all the things right.

439

Let's see.

440

Would you be willing to not

leave socks on the floor?

441

Nicole Penrod: That's literally

how it sounds all the time.

442

When I'm working with people,

443

Jessica: Yep.

444

Yep.

445

Nicole Penrod: I'm like, amazing.

446

Let's take it from the top.

447

'Cause in that case, right, what we've

done is we have set Josh up to fail

448

Jessica: Hmm.

449

Nicole Penrod: He doesn't actually have

an opportunity to get it right here.

450

All he can do is his best

until he gets it wrong.

451

Unless

452

Josh: have to never, ever leave

socks on the floor ever again.

453

Nicole Penrod: Uhhuh.

454

Josh: Yeah, that's, that's attainable.

455

It's fine.

456

It's fine.

457

I got it.

458

No problem.

459

Yeah.

460

Nicole Penrod: Yeah.

461

Yeah.

462

Impossible.

463

Or incredibly difficult.

464

Perfectionistic asks, I think,

often make us feel both inclined

465

to meet them and excited about

the opportunity to prove ourselves

466

Jessica: yes, absolutely.

467

Nicole Penrod: well.

468

'cause one thing we're doing with

that, I think unintentionally,

469

is we're replicating.

470

What I'll often explain to clients

is the toxic shame cycle where I

471

feel bad about myself, and then

I make the plan to be perfect so

472

I don't have to feel bad anymore.

473

Then when I'm not perfect, I feel

bad about myself again, and I

474

just do that in circles sometimes.

475

We unintentionally facilitate

that within our partners.

476

So what we're looking for is an

opportunity for success because

477

what I want and what I need is

to feel like my sense of peace

478

and order are not as threatened.

479

That's actually not gonna work.

480

If I'm like, please never leave socks

on the floor again, and then you do.

481

And I'm like, oh my

God, my piece, my order.

482

Damn.

483

So if we rework this, right, what

do we think might be a different way

484

to change the circumstances without

trying to create a sense of perfection?

485

Jessica: Yeah.

486

Um, let's see.

487

Would you be willing to.

488

Shop for more laundry baskets, so we

have a laundry basket in every room.

489

For your convenience, sir.

490

Josh: convenience.

491

Nicole Penrod: I think that's

definitely an option, and I, when we're.

492

Making requests we need to recognize

that we're opening ourselves up to

493

negotiation because it might be that

Josh is like, I don't want a laundry

494

basket in every room that seems extreme.

495

Can I offer you this instead?

496

Right.

497

Here's my counter offer.

498

Okay, great.

499

Interesting counter offer.

500

Lemme think about that?

501

Will I accept it?

502

Will I offer something else?

503

We try really hard to both.

504

Offer something possible and

not be hyper attached to a yes.

505

Because if somebody is not able to

say no without me being either like

506

explosive towards them or judgmental

towards them, I haven't made a request.

507

I've made a demand.

508

And again, that's where we get into

the power dynamic, the hierarchy,

509

the things that make it really hard

for someone to hear you and feel like

510

you're working on something together.

511

Jessica: Yeah.

512

In my experience, the request part

is the hardest and I think that it

513

is the one that touches the most on

early attachment material because

514

so often in insecure attachment,

515

Josh: There was

516

Jessica: an experience of.

517

You know, zero sum game,

518

Josh: We

519

Jessica: not able to negotiate and

get everyone's needs met one person.

520

Often the kid has to, either subsume

their need for, care and dependency

521

or subsume their own autonomy in

order to keep the parent happy.

522

So this one to me always feels

like the part where you're actually

523

doing a little trauma work.

524

To help them actually name

proactively what they want,

525

which can feel really scary.

526

Nicole Penrod: Yeah.

527

That gets tied up a lot

in the needs piece too.

528

I find that when I've been working

on NVC with clients for a while,

529

they often will come back to the

same small set of needs and requests

530

that they have sort of deemed safe.

531

Josh: scared.

532

Mm-hmm.

533

Nicole Penrod: can ask for these things.

534

It sort of works or I feel comfortable

naming this need, but maybe not that one.

535

And that is where we

sometimes delve into trauma.

536

We sometimes delve into self-esteem work.

537

We sometimes delve into prior unhealthy

relationship dynamics, either within

538

that relationship or in past ones.

539

Parental stuff comes up a lot.

540

I think that was a very astute

observation because yeah,

541

it's actually quite difficult.

542

To ask for what you want without

either trying to like eat some of

543

the compromise so that you don't feel

like you're asking for too much or

544

really extend really far and hope

that this person can meet everything.

545

And sitting in that middle is

really tricky and sometimes

546

we'll even overcompensate.

547

Jessica: Going back a little bit to

the, I feel, one more observation in

548

my experience, and I think we touch

on this in the I statements episode,

549

which has a lot of crossover here.

550

There's often a tendency to say,

well, I feel like you're a jerk,

551

or, I feel, right, like you were

saying, an evaluation masquerading.

552

So do you have any shorthands in terms

of how do you know if it's actually a

553

judgment or evaluation versus a feeling?

554

Nicole Penrod: One interesting tip

from the Nonviolent Communication

555

original book, I think it's

addition two or three is.

556

That a, a feeling word

in NVC is a short word.

557

I feel mad, I feel sad, I feel happy.

558

I feel scared.

559

Not like many, many syllables.

560

So that's a very shorthand.

561

It's not perfect, but it's an option.

562

And I sometimes will tell people, in

therapy, sometimes we'll really work

563

to expand the emotional vocabulary with

something like a feelings wheel, where

564

the further out you go on the wheel.

565

The more complex and nuanced the

emotions are, I sometimes have to

566

challenge clients, especially a lot of

the ones that I see who, either through

567

practicing non-monogamy or being in queer

relationships that have required more

568

negotiation, or being like premarital and

wanting to do all of the psychoeducation

569

and learn about feelings have almost

over intellectualized their emotions.

570

And gone.

571

Okay.

572

I have to find the perfect word.

573

Hold on, let me consult my wheel.

574

Okay.

575

Here.

576

I think this is the exact word

for how I'm feeling right now.

577

And often it's like a, an intellectual

exercise, more so than it is what

578

is happening in my body right now.

579

So if I, take a pause in

the conversation and wonder.

580

How am I feeling and I notice I

have a real heaviness in my chest

581

and a bit of lethargy in my limbs

and my eyes are wanting to tear up.

582

That could be a way that I recognize

that I'm sad when if I looked at my

583

wheel, I might be more inclined to pick

something like I feel abandoned, which

584

is very weighty and vulnerable to admit.

585

And might not actually make myself and

my partner feel more connected, unless

586

we already have a really solid frame

for understanding that concept together.

587

The other thing I'll add about

feelings and NVC is that a feeling

588

is something that you're willing

to own because a hundred different

589

people might have a hundred different

reactions to the same conversation.

590

Dirty socks on the floor of every room

is a pretty extreme example here, but

591

you might be able to find someone who

sees that and experiences relief because

592

they came from a home where everything

had to be perfect all the time, and they

593

might have internalized a really high

standard of cleanliness, and in this case,

594

with their particular personality and

constellation of experiences, it might be

595

a huge weight off to realize that their

partner is not expecting perfection.

596

And that maybe a sock on the

floor isn't gonna kill us.

597

So I need to be able and willing

to own my emotion because a lot of

598

what's happening emotionally is me.

599

You didn't make me feel a thing.

600

I reacted to something, and it

might've been even something that

601

you did or said, but a lot of it

is what I'm bringing to the table.

602

It doesn't make it my fault either,

but when we can own our emotions

603

fully, I think that's when NVC

starts to get really transformative.

604

Jessica: When you say own your

emotion, you mean specifically

605

That piece of you didn't make me

feel, Josh didn't make me feel mad.

606

Mad.

607

I had my own stuff internally,

my own values, my own experience.

608

That brought up mad when I could have

felt something else in that position.

609

Nicole Penrod: And that sharing

that you were mad with him is

610

an act of generosity because you

want him to understand you better.

611

This is what's alive in me.

612

I might even get more into why at some

point during this conversation, Hey, like

613

when I was younger, this is how it was.

614

Or I had a period where I had my own

stuff around mess or just ever since

615

I was young, dirty socks enraged me.

616

Like that's just what it is.

617

So I am, I'm sharing myself with

you and if my anger is nonviolent.

618

It's gonna take us some practice to

really both feel that in an embodied way.

619

But if it is, it's totally safe to

not only share that I'm angry, but

620

to hear that somebody's angry and

say, oh, wow, the like purest, purest

621

response and nonviolent communication

is, thank you for sharing that with me.

622

Even if it's.

623

You slob, you left your socks everywhere.

624

If Josh is like transcended into

the upper echelon of nonviolent

625

communicators, he might be able to

pull out, oh, you're angry because

626

of my socks on the floor, and you're

communicating that with me so that I know.

627

Thank you for sharing that.

628

Jessica: Sometimes Josh, is that elevated?

629

I

630

Josh: someday I'll get there.

631

I'm curious, if a couple's

listening to this and they're like,

632

oh, great, let's try this out.

633

Observations, feelings, needs requests.

634

Cool.

635

how do we go about starting a practice

with nonviolent communication together?

636

Nicole Penrod: Yeah.

637

One of my favorite early exercises is

actually hanging out with the feelings

638

and needs lists from the official NVC

website and talking through them in a

639

moment where we're not having conflict.

640

Picking, okay, what am I

feeling in this moment?

641

Okay, what need might be being met right

now if I'm like feeling pretty happy.

642

What need maybe isn't feeling so met in

my life right now, whether it is related

643

to you or unrelated to you, and creating a

little bit more of a shared vocabulary so

644

that in future moments, if you wanna use

this language, it comes up a little easier

645

and your partner knows what you mean.

646

If Jessica said she wants peace, and

I say that I want peace, we might

647

actually mean slightly different things.

648

So those needs might

manifest differently for us.

649

And talking a little bit through,

okay, what does that mean for me?

650

For you?

651

What are our histories

around some of these needs?

652

I think it's a really

nice connecting exercise.

653

I also, after a primer like this one, or,

uh, there's a really great about 30 minute

654

video on the nonviolent communication

website with a longtime trainer and

655

practitioner that I think is a great

introduction to the concepts for step

656

two, I often highly recommend the small

book that I think you can pay what you

657

want for it online called Decolonizing

Nonviolent Communication by Minchi.

658

This author also was on a podcast

talking about decolonizing

659

nonviolent communication.

660

Highly recommend because the risk that

we sometimes run, and that I see a little

661

bit in some of the original texts by

Rosenberg is nonviolent communication

662

can become a tool of tone policing

I don't wanna say ignoring systemic

663

oppression, but sometimes trying to

like transcend it with compassion.

664

This idea that, okay, well if I

feel bad that somebody I don't

665

know, did a microaggression

against me because I'm a lesbian.

666

I need to interrogate my own

experiences and feelings and they

667

didn't make me feel anything.

668

I feel the way, you see how

it's kind of a slippery slope.

669

So I really, really like that

text because I think it dives into

670

some of those stickier areas and

provides a lot of frames and a lot

671

of opportunities to think about.

672

As with literally any practice, any

skill, what of this is useful to me

673

and that I wanna, take with me and

apply to my life and my relationships?

674

And what do I not wanna take with me?

675

When are the times where I might actually

want to, recognize the impact someone

676

else had on me and choose not to engage

or choose to engage in a way that is

677

maybe more respectful of my anger than

it is of my empathy in that moment.

678

Maybe I'm justified in

that, and that's fair.

679

We all are gonna have different lines.

680

So I like that text because it

deconstructs some of this practice and

681

gives people an opportunity to think

critically about each piece on its

682

own and what they wanna take from it.

683

Josh: That's beautiful.

684

I think it's such a great idea

to practice this outside of.

685

A moment of conflict first because,

you know, we can't learn things.

686

I mean, we can, but it's very,

very difficult to learn things

687

when we're super dysregulated.

688

I love that recommendation and

I love all those resources.

689

We'll link to all of those in our

show notes so that folks can check

690

those out, and get some of that

nuance that you're pointing to there.

691

Jessica: I also just wanna add that

hiring somebody like Nick to walk you

692

through NVC is helpful, because of all

of these nuances and it can be hard to,

693

particularly for supercharged topics.

694

Really use an in depth method like this.

695

Nicole Penrod: Yeah.

696

And if you're noticing that it is really

hard to even identify what needs are

697

being met or make any kind of a request.

698

It's a decent indicator that

there's deeper stuff that

699

needs to be worked through.

700

And working with a clinician who

has the experience to support

701

you through that, will make the

entire process a lot smoother.

702

Jessica: Here.

703

Here.

704

Josh: it.

705

Jessica: I also wanna say, Josh, that

you do not have socks on the floor

706

of every room in our house, and I

really appreciate your cleanliness

707

because it gives me peace in order.

708

Josh: Oh, thanks.

709

Well, anything else that

we wanna cover, today?

710

Nicole Penrod: nothing that wouldn't

take more time than we have, I think.

711

Josh: Yeah, I know.

712

Just give us another three hours

and we'll just like really get

713

into some of the nuances here.

714

Nicole Penrod: Yeah.

715

Josh: Beautiful.

716

Well, thanks so much for joining us, Nick.

717

It's been really fun, chatting

about this and I've learned a lot.

718

It's funny, I don't think I even

had explicitly the, observations,

719

feelings, needs, requests, structure.

720

I've done all of those things

individually, but having that,

721

it's like, oh yeah, that's a great

little, thing to come back to.

722

Especially if in a moment where

you're struggling, it's like, okay,

723

what are some handle holds here

that will help me navigate this

724

with more empathy and compassion,

both for myself and my partner?

725

Nicole Penrod: Yeah.

726

At minimum, they're great internal

reflection tools in those moments.

727

Josh: Yeah.

728

Beautiful.

729

All right, well that's all for today.

730

You can find the show notes with links

to all the resources we mentioned in

731

this episode@relationshipcenter.com

732

slash podcast.

733

Jessica: and if you have a

question or comment, email us at

734

podcast@relationshipcenter.com.

735

We love hearing from you.

736

Josh: you.

737

If you'd like to work with one of the

talented clinicians on our team, including

738

Nicole, go to relationship center.com

739

to apply for a free 30

minute consultation.

740

Jessica: You can also sign up

for a monthly email of our best

741

content@relationshipcenter.com

742

slash newsletter.

743

Josh: and if something in this

episode touched you, will you share

744

it with a friend that helps us

reach more sweet humans like you.

745

Jessica: Lastly, we'd love it if you

would leave us a rating and review

746

wherever you listen to podcasts and

be sure to hit subscribe while you're

747

there so you never miss an episode.

748

Josh: Until next time, we love you too.

749

Jessica: too.

750

Josh: Bye.

751

Jessica: Thanks for letting

me throw you under the bus.

752

Josh: Any time baby.

753

Jessica: What do you think?

754

Laundry baskets in every room?

755

Josh: No, that sounds awful.