If you’re a woman who feels like you’re performing, over-managing others’ comfort, or doubting your leadership instincts—this episode is for you. Krista and her colleague Barbs Edwards, introduce The Circle: a transformational women’s group experience based on T-Group methodology. Together they explore how this real-time relational practice helps women track their inner experience, speak with clarity and care, and break free from old patterns like people-pleasing, over-controlling, or self-doubt. You’ll hear personal stories, practical insights, and why collaborative, emotionally intelligent leadership is more needed now than ever.

(00:00) – Why women don’t have impostor syndrome—they have undervalued leadership styles

(02:13) – Guest Barbs Edwards 

(05:21) – What is T-Group

(06:59) – Speaking only what’s true

(08:54) – Tracking yourself vs. managing others

(10:24) – Why this work helps women stop performing

(12:22) – Barbs’ personal story: finally shifting lifelong patterns

(17:05) – Krista’s journey through corporate gender bias and self-doubt

(21:37) – Real-time feedback: How others actually experience you

(34:07) – How The Circle accelerates growth

(36:17) – How to join a free Taster Circle (virtual or in-person)

Reach out with your thoughts, experiences, and topics you want to hear about. We love hearing from you!

Resources Mentioned: 

• The Circle For Women
• Our Top 10 Relationship Agreements 

Get in Touch: 

• The Art Of We Website
• The Art of We Instagram 
• Integrative Psychiatry Institute

Rate, Review & Follow on Apple Podcasts: 

If you want to show your support for this show, please consider rating and reviewing The Art of We on Apple Podcasts. To do that, open the Apple Podcasts app and search for The Art of We. Scroll to the bottom of the package and rate with 5 stars. Let us know your favorite part of the show by clicking “Write a Review.” While you’re at it, follow the show so you can get the latest episode delivered to your phone weekly. 

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or on your favorite podcast platform. 

And so we really don't get mirrored in the strengths that we bring in the workplace. And so it really isn't that we have imposter syndrome, it's that the world keeps telling us that we don't have the right form of leadership. And my story is we have the exact right form of leadership. There's a tremendous amount of data that shows that collaborative more vulnerable leadership leads to more buy in, more engagement, more innovation, more trust and psychological safety. So I think we're exactly what the world needs, but we've been told that we're not what the world needs. What would it feel like to say what's really true for you with clarity, care and no apology?

What if you could see your relational patterns as they're happening and choose a new response in real time? What would it mean to lead without performance, just with presence, clarity and courage. What would it be like to stop managing others comfort and start honoring your own truth? Welcome to the Art of we podcast. I'm your host, Krista Van Derveer, and I'm joined by a badass colleague, friend, wise, female leader and my co creator of the circle, Barb's Edwards is a longtime facilitator, coach and guide who has spent the past three decades helping people come home to themselves and to one another, with a background in psychotherapy and a career shaped by work with global organizations, women's leadership programs and top executive teams. She brings fierce compassion, deep listening and a gift for creating spaces where truth can emerge. At the heart of her work is a longing to help women reclaim the parts of themselves they set aside in the push to be perfect, productive or strong. She believes that when women gather in circle with courage and realness, something profound is awakened shameless brilliance returns and new choices become possible, which is exactly what we're talking about today on this episode, you'll hear about the circle, which is not only a potent practice for women to reclaim themselves, it's a movement of women raising

welcome barbs. Is so fun to be having this conversation with you. Welcome to the Art of we Podcast. I'm so excited about this conversation together.

Oh, thank you, Krista. I feel thrilled to be here. I listen to you and will on a regular basis. I deeply respect what you all are up to the level to which you reveal yourselves and are vulnerable about your lives in a way that all of us get to learn from. So I'm so happy to be here. Oh, thank you.

And it's really a special episode for me, because we're going to be talking about something that we've created called the circle, and it's been informed by this relational methodology that we're going to get into On this episode, and it's really relevant to the art of we because it is such a realm of deep connection and relationship this methodology, and it really brings us into a type of connection that I find is so rare for us to find these days, and also a type of self development and self leadership that becomes accessible when we have this kind of methodology. So I'm excited to share from our hearts and from our experience, all about the circle and this t group methodology.

I notice I have this bubbling of energy that's coming up combination of excitement and, I don't know, maybe a little bit of anxiousness also, like, will we be coherent and make sense in the process? Because it matters. It does matter. That's what it feels like.

Yeah, it matters. And I can relate to that just about every single episode. I'm like, Oh, is this going to make any sense? Is it going to be communicated in a way that people really get the essence of it, and especially this, because it is so near and dear to our hearts. And so I'd like to invite us to start with a high level explanation of what T group is for the people who are listening, who haven't heard of T group before, since it's the foundation of the work that we're doing together, I feel like it's a really important part for people to understand that makes sense. So T group, it's not the thing that you're drinking, like a tea. It's T, the letter T, dash group, and it stands for training group. It's a real time, interpersonal experiential learning practice designed to heighten self awareness, emotional intelligence, authentic relating skills, the ability to navigate conflicts and the ability to give and receive feedback effectively. So a little bit of very short history was originally developed as part of a sensitivity training in the mid 20th century by social psychologists like Kurt Lewin. This methodology is Widely used for leadership development, group dynamics, training and deepening human connection, and is taught at the Stanford Graduate School of Business and a couple other institutes that are standing for relational and leadership development. So at a very high level, would you add anything to that? Barbs in terms of T group itself?

I think I would just say over the years and where it's taught that it can be different in different places. And I would say what we've done with the circle is to build off the foundation of T group, but it could be very different than what you've experienced somewhere else, but that it will have the essence of what T group is, yes.

And I'll say first that for the listeners. I'm just wanting to say is we have a variation of people who listen to our podcast, and this specific podcast is really speaking to the women. So the circle is for the women, and we're going to get more into why that is the case. So yes, let's speak to the essence of of the tea group.

Yeah, so one of the things that makes a T group, a T group, is that you're really talking about what's happening in the here and now. So typically, we come together and we will tell stories about our lives. We'll bring the problems of our lives and maybe brainstorm about those problems, and we're talking about what we'd say kind of then and there, you know of what's happened in the past, or what we want to have happen in the future. And an essence of the circle will be that we're speaking about what's happening in this moment, which is a very different experience. And anyone who's participated in a circle, that's probably the essence of what they'll say is, I've never experienced anything quite like that with kind of a smile on their face. Of that was really incredible, because we don't typically talk that way. So that's one of the elements that makes the circle a circle with us. What else would you add to that? Krista,

I would also add to this that the practice is really different in that it's a called out experience, or practice of tracking one's own experience as the primary purpose. And I'll say that for me, this is really challenging, and it's really good for me, and primarily because when I'm in relationship with somebody, or I'm talking to somebody, my tendency, especially as I think, as a woman, at least in my skin, my history, I tend to be over in the other person's world, tracking them, and then I am reacting based on how they're reacting, versus this practice is really about, Wow, can I put a 90 or 100% attention on what's actually happening in my experience in relationship to what's happening in the present moment, what this person is saying? How does that impact me? What am I feeling in this moment based on what the conversation is in the present moment? And for me, that's really, really, really hard to do, but it's created so many more openings in my world as a result of actually having a deeper connection with myself and really knowing what's going on. So that's part of the essence of it for me. And then curiosity is like we're coming with, wow, what is here in this moment? Yeah, what's happening for me, what's happening for us. And the difference is that when I first started doing this, actually, it was back in like 2010 but then I took a very long break, and now I'm back in this group with you, barbs, with this group of women, and we're in the circle. And it was strange for me at first, because I'm like, I don't even know anything about these women's backgrounds. I don't know what their challenges are in the future. I don't even really understand what's going on, because we're not learning about each other, but we were learning about each other in real time, versus the stories and narratives that we hold about ourselves.

And there's something about it that I have found to actually be very relaxing, in a way of which I was performing, in some way around what I thought you might want me to be doing. And it was subtle that this new way of kind of relaxing of all I have to do is track my own experience and know, like, what are the sensations that I'm feeling in my body right now, and what are the tapes that are running in my head in this moment that all I'm really doing is trying to do that. As I do that, something's going to happen with Krista right as I share something, then she's going to be tracking herself. So we end up having like in some ways, it sounds so simple, but it can become so layered, because as I share something, it's going to have some impact on Krista, and she's going to share something, and then it's going to have an impact on me, but it's this beautiful way in which we're just tracking what's going on with ourselves and then being available to the impact it's having on another person. And there's something about that that my nervous system has Relaxed, and this is what I've heard with other people in the circle. There's one woman who has been so afraid of groups and her she just says her whole life is really changing as she's befriending groups in general through this process of finding herself and finding a relaxed way to be with others through relating to herself.

Yeah, it reminds me of how many other self development and professional development courses and methodologies and all the things that I've done in my life, and I know you're a lifelong learner, too Barbs, and there's been a lot of things that have had impacts on my life, but with this particularmethod, the way that we're doing it, there's something about this real time feedback with each other and how we're impacting each other, and what we're able to see about our own patterns, like you were talking about in real time, that's had me have the capacity to have much faster integration around the changes that I want to be making, because I have so much more visibility of them.

And so this practice is really a way to wake up to the ways that we're having impact on others that we don't want to be having, and having more impact that we do want to be having, and how we're influencing others and leading others and leading our own lives. I think that that's really at the essence of this, also, that's really been my life's work, is working with with leaders. And I think about with leaders, you're really trying to increase your influence that you have with other people. And we have a professional circle, and we have a personal circle, but the way that we hold it is, everyone is a leader. Everyone is building their capacity to influence others, whether it's at their home, in their homes, with their, you know, partners, or their children, or in their communities. Of how do we expand that influence? And I really feel like this is so essential right now that we need to take this up as women in a really profound way. Of we have a lot of problems, and I think women have a really unique place that we can bring our skills to those problems. And that's what's so exciting about doing this with women, is building more capacity for leadership and influence in all of our lives.

So barbs, I'd love for us to explore a little bit more and have our listeners hear a little bit more about you and your story and why this particular methodology, the circle that we've created, is so important for you in your life, how it's impacted you. And also, I also love to hear a little bit more about why women, why? Now you've touched on it, but I'd love to hear all of that, if you'd be willing to share

Sure. You know, there are some people who their goal is to grow, and I am one of those people like I started transcendental meditation when I was 13 in Kingsport, Tennessee, which is not a typical place to do meditation, but I had migraine headaches, and my mom and I were in the in an elevator, and there was a flyer up, and the next week, she was dropping me off with a bunch of adults to learn how to meditate. And you know, that started a series of different things, of the EST, which is now forum, and I became a psychotherapist, and I have been incredibly blessed to facilitate many really transformational programs, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People I taught around the world and the remarkable women's program. And I have mediated conflicts in so many different environments between groups and an executive coach, and what I have found in this is there was an element that felt out of alignment for me in my work, and some areas that I felt like in my own personal development, these issues still had me that there were ways in which I still was triggered, and I understood them, but I wasn't able to shift them, if that makes sense, and it was hard for me in my work, as I'm working with other people, to make those kind of changes, to feel kind of like a hypocrite in a way that I hadn't been able to penetrate those things in myself. So one of the things that has been so profound in this, for me, in the circle, is that I'm actually I actually have it now. There's a way in which I have some new awarenesses and some new choices that I didn't have before that's been really profound to me. And I think that's why you and I have been so excited about creating more circles as we see the impacts of I see life transforming shifts happen for people, and I've been in men and women's circles and women's circles, but where I see, in a moment, that something really significant has happened. I think why women is when I was raised with in an all women household, and I just find women fascinating complex, my sisters, we all look a lot alike, and we're quite competitive, or have been in our lives together, and I think that really keeps us that competition that kind of lives in our DNA as women, you know, we only could get a mortgage in the 1970s on our own. So I think there's a way in our DNA that there's competition for safety in our lives, and that's deep in ourselves, that maybe there is, for many of us even an unconscious process. But rarely have I talked with a woman that there hasn't been some painful story that a woman's had about some kind of competition with another woman. So there's some way in which we, I think, aren't for each other's success in a way that really could help us make the difference that we could. And so I think bringing women's circles together, we have an opportunity to deal with some of that complexity in a way that we bring just a beautiful lens of curiosity to understand it. I think women live with a lot of shame. We have found. We call it the shame boomerang in our circle, which is like somebody does something and the other person feels shame, and then the person who did it feel shame, and it just really gets wrapped around and it's been a very profound way to create more resilience in the places that we are embarrassed about or feel shameful about. And I guess the last thing I'd say is, you know, misogyny is just out of the closet now, and it's really time for us to learn how to influence more powerfully in the world in the current I mean, I think that is true for all time, but I think in the current moment, we need women and some of the natural qualities that many women bring, certainly not all Women, but collaboration, authenticity, trust building, relationship building, I believe those are all really needed in the world.

Yeah, I deeply agree with all of that. Greatly agree with all that Barbs. I so appreciate that. And hearing your journey, and knowing your journey and the power of what we're talking about here has really impacted me as well, in terms of my personal journey, as you know, early on working inside of these male dominated industries and companies, and, you know, initially kind of being like, really, rah, rah. Like, I I'm gonna get in there. I'm gonna be successful. I'm very committed. I want to show up. I want to, like, I'm cheerleader of these companies, and my role, and it started to dawn on me after a while, especially after being offered money for sex with one of the companies that I worked for. Wow, it was, it was $1,000 bonus per year if I were to sleep with this guy on the while we were on the road together. And so sorry, but like, that's like, that's what we're having to face in some form, and this was a while ago, yes, but I know this still happens today. And my rose colored glasses of I can do this, and I'm strong and I'm capable, started to slightly turn color. My they were rosy, and then they were not so rosy anymore, as I started to work in different elements, different industries, also that were male dominated. And over time, I did become stronger, but then when I started to become a consultant inside of companies, that was kind of like a great challenge for me, because the companies that we were working in were male dominated, and the methodology that I was trained in at the time, and that, I think is extraordinary still to this day, is called the collaborative way. It's a methodology that we bring in to train relational and leadership development. But even with these skills and tools that I had to directly confront these experiences of bias, gender bias, age bias inside these companies, and the level of challenge that I got back from most of these men, and most of them were older, so they were kind of attempting to tell me how to be and how to do things. Eventually, over time, I just started to become pretty wounded, because I was being giving signals, was being told things that I wasn't doing it right, or I didn't have the credentials, or what have you. And eventually, over time, I started to really put on this imposter syndrome feeling. And I loved consulting, I loved working in these companies, but I actually didn't really feel like I could affect as much change as I wanted to.

That is such a common story that I hear with women and some way in which they feel like they aren't as capable. And there's this great article HBr put out around, let's not call it impostor let's stop calling it imposter syndrome or something like that. But it's just talking about women, and our style, often, our style of being more collaborative and more relational, is not as respected in the workplace, that what we're used to having is more control, command, clear, decisive. And so we really don't get mirrored in the strengths that we bring in the workplace. And so it really isn't that we have imposter syndrome, it's that the world keeps telling us that we don't have the right form of leadership, and my story is we have the exact right form of leadership. There's a tremendous amount of data that shows that collaborative, more vulnerable. Leadership leads to more buy in, more engagement, more innovation, more trust and psychological safety. So I think we're exactly what the world needs, but we've been told that we're not what the world needs,

which is such a gaslighting experience, and the beauty of what we're up to right now is that in our circle, in our women's circle, I have already healed so much of what I would say has been high levels of self doubt because of the messages I was getting for so long, and already I'm able to be reflected to by you and the other women about the things that I can't quite see about myself because of this training. Let's say that I got about who I am or who I'm not based on my experiences, and it's been a really beautiful and healing experience to be in this women's circle.

Can you give an example of something that shifted, like what we might see if we were a fly on the wall, what might be different.

One thing that's really been in vivid Technicolor for me, that's been wonderful to receive is there's a way that I can enter into a space or a relationship, and I can start to ask questions, like questions around, like, Are we okay? What are we up to? Together? What are we doing? And there's a way that, the way that I'm asking these questions in what I'm learning is not having the kind of impact that I'm wanting to have. It's almost like I'm asking the question from a place of, let's clarify what we're up to together. Let's clarify what what our relationship needs. And in the Art of We, Will and I practice this all the time, we're always like, what are we up to together, and what are our agreements? And let's clarify those. And I think with Will, it's a little bit different for me. I feel very confident in my relationship with will I feel confident in what we're up to, but when it comes into more of this social experience or colleague experience, I tend to take a little bit of a back seat in my in my power or in my leadership, I should say, and so leading with these questions of like, well, what are we up to? Or are we okay? It's very nuanced, but it comes with a impact of me deferring to the other person, and that's something that I'm really taking away from our group, specifically, is really waking up to not having an idea, any idea, of what impression that was leaving on people around me,

you know, as a member of the group and watching you, Krista, what I notice when you've gone from questioning to actually putting more of your opinion out, is that you step into influencing and moving the group in a particular way, And the group has always been so enthusiastic about receiving that leadership, because it's good leadership,

and that's so amazing to receive because that wasn't the messaging that I was getting in consulting. I mean, yes, I was getting some of that, but as a generality, I didn't walk away from my consulting years being like, dang, I'm a badass leader. I was like, Oh, I have a lot of work to do, yeah.

And it's so great to watch you just change. And this is what I see with all the people, is you get this opportunity to change in the moment and do something differently, and you get to hear what the impact is of that change from people, yes, and that's really, you know, I've done a lot of executive coaching as you have, and one of the things processes I go through is interviewing people who work with that leader to find out. I'm trying to figure out, what specifically do they do, what's the behavior that they do? What are the stories that you make up about that behavior? What's the impact that that has, and what would you like them to do differently as a result? And you know, it's just like getting them good feedback that we don't typically give to each other. And I'm often trying to find an impact that actually will be motivating to a leader that sometimes doesn't want to change, sometimes does, but something that matters to them, that motivates them to shift. Yeah, and you know that process is kind of a cumbersome process for someone to step in the middle and try to do that for you, and yet it's really necessary, because in life, we don't get that feedback. We don't find that out. And in the circle, you get to find that out in a really, we're building our capacity to give good, clear, grounded, observational feedback and impact, and you get to hear it and open up some areas that have been blind spots, like there was a woman who recently said, you know, I would so much rather know that I'm boring here than to think that I'm boring to other people out in the world, right?

She wanted to be known in the group, that she wanted to be told Yeah, that maybe she's boring in the group, rather than being like, not knowing and being out in the world and being boring to people. Y

Because as we build in the circle, you know, we build over time. We don't, because we're building trust over time, but after we've been in the circle for a while. If someone's talking for a long time, someone might say, Huh, I noticed that I was really paying attention for the first minute that you were talking, and then I began drifting. That's just what was happening for me. And then that person has their impact of like, wow, I notice I'm a little some embarrassment comes up or something. So we work through that, but we get to find out, like at least, how we're occurring to the person who's sharing with us.

And it's so relieving to my system to be able to be responsible in my speaking and own my experience, this is what my experience is, and to actually be really truthful about that in a circle and container that feel safe enough to do that because we have facilitation, yes, yeah. And I want to go back to to what you were saying about the executive coaching and even the 360 feedback models. So those are 360s are where we go around, and we get all the different opinions. And you know what, how people are rating other people about how they're doing with their leadership or communication or skill sets. And, you know, I think that there's a lot of really good intent with 360s and some of them are better than others, and some of them, it could be really useful. But what I found is that is kind of going back to this motivation factor that you were talking about, is when there's a sheet of paper in front of somebody who was told to be given a 360 to get all this feedback about how they are in their leadership, and they get the piece of paper, and it wasn't like a volunteer of like, Oh, I really want to learn about myself. I really want to learn how other people are impacted by me. And we're trying to support them as coach, executive coaches, and they're just digging their heels in and going into defensiveness and excuses and well, that person must be, you know, so and so, and there's really not any change happening, but there is something amazing about people who are actually really interested in real self development and leadership development. When they get that real time feedback with somebody in this container there, I think there becomes an inherent motivation to want to change behavior, because they're seeing right away that what they're doing isn't getting the results that they want.

Oh, it's been so stunning for me. Can I tell you one of the big areas where I've changed? So my father died when I was really young, and I grew up with these two sisters and my mother, and he committed suicide, and my mother was terribly depressed after he died, and there was just a lot of sense of being out of control. And so one of the decisions I made very early on is that I was going to control so that I wouldn't be out of control. And this is one of these areas that I kind of have talked about that has had me and I haven't had it. And one of the models that I use when I coach with people is the iceberg model, which is the iceberg. There's the tip of the iceberg, which, if you look at that as a metaphor for a human being, is the behavior that the human being is doing that everybody can see. Right the tip of the iceberg you can see. And then underneath the waterline, there's all sorts of things that no one else can see. And that's, you know, the sensations that are happening for me, my beliefs, my feelings, my values, my needs, that are going on that sometimes I know what those things are. But those can even be blind spots for me. So one of the things that has happened for me above the waterline, the tip of the iceberg. The behavior that you would see when I get controlling is I can interrupt, I can get abrupt, I can have more complaint than request. There can be an edge in my voice. What's interesting is, a lot of this behavior has really worked for me in working with powerful men in the world totally, you know, it really has, yeah, I've worked with a lot of CEOs that I know this edge has worked, but it never felt like I had control of that edge, that I I was being choiceful about it. And one of the things that someone told me in our circle is that they were scared of me andas I really slow down the process of what's going on, what I have recognized is that many people will read me as a little angry, but actually, as I've sat with my own experience and become present with my own experience, I often am having completely opposite experience. It's often loneliness or a lack of attunement or a fear or a sadness that's happening for me. But what's most available to me, and this can be different for different people, right? Some people have more sadness available to them. What's most available to me is an anger in this desire to control my experience, and yet what I'm feeling is much more vulnerable than anger, and what anger does is great fear. It creates people to push against me, which ultimately I get more feeling out of control. And what I've become much better at recognizing is, oh, I'm actually a little afraid in this moment, or I'm a little bored in this moment, and I feel a lack of attunement, and I don't know how to get back into connection. And so I'll I'll have an edgy feeling, and I'm getting much better at being able to identify and say what I'm actually feeling, what my needs are. That actually draws people towards me versus pushes them away. And that's been really profound for me.

I feel like since being in this circle with you for this last year, I've witnessed a person who I feel like I did experience a little bit harder to get in with, like, almost like, penetrate or like connect with to a person who I feel like there's so much warmth that exudes from you and so much welcome. And so I experience you very differently from the beginning of this circle to now. And it's It's extraordinary to get to witness the change in real time. It's beautiful.

I love you naming it, and it feels so different from inside of me, my felt experience of it feels so different.

And what does that make possible for you in your other areas of life, beyond our circle?

Well, I just had a trip with my sisters, who I'm very close with, and probably my sisters have gotten more of my edginess than anybody. It's like, the closer and you get, the more edge you can get. And one of the things, you know, they just named is that I ask if I can give them feedback, if I can give a thought, you know, which is something that has really gotten into. I mean, I knew that as a coach, that that's good behavior to do, but I didn't always do it, and so I think that I'm just easier to live with than I used to be, you know? And by being easier to live with, I'm having a different experience inside, right? I'm staying more connected, more relational, more recognizing what I really need and want in any moment, being able to make requests that is significantly changing all of my relationships. I love hearing that, but it's more, I would say, it's interesting. It's more of a essence, of a presence, I would say, that we're working with in the circle, than it is skill building, although skill building happens, but you're really working in this state of being able to stay in this moment with another human being.

Yeah, and I can say that it's not always an easy ride. What I love about these circles is for the people who are really interested, the women who are really interested in self development, who want to understand what their blind spots are, who want to be more effective in their leadership, no matter where that is, in their life, at home, in their calling and their career and their friendships like this really gives, even though it's not always easy, it really gives that level of satisfaction Of like, Wow, I feel like I'm actually really changing here and making strides in my development. That's how I would relate to it.

I would absolutely agree with that. I think every woman I've ever known feels like they could use some help in how to deal with difficult conversations and where we see it differently and how to deal with conflict. You'll just make great strides in that in a circle like this.

So if you're listening to this and you're like, this is interesting to me, I want to learn more. Then we would love to have you join us in one of our taster circles. So meaning, like you can come in, you can taste what we're talking about and experience it for yourself and see if it resonates with you. So we have in person taster events here in Boulder, Colorado, and we also have virtual taster events that you can sign up for. So how would you find out about these dates? You can go to www.KristaVanDerveer.comand you can just click on the women's group tab and learn more about this.

And there's a couple of ways that you can come into a group, if you decided you wanted to go forward, and you'll make a commitment to be in a group and that so that you can really develop this trust over time, so you build more and more capability. And there's stranger groups where we just place you in a group. And then there's also building a group. And we did that with our circle, which is three women invited. Each of them invited a woman. We had our first circle with six people, and then we sat there and thought of other women, and then we put out other invitations, so that you have a group that has some affinity already, which has some power to it. Both of them have benefits to them, but there's two ways to do it, and there's personal circles, and there's professional circles. And the circles will go into issues around that women face, like power and aging and misogyny, competitiveness, conflict, our bodies, all of it, all these really juicy, important topics and themes for us to explore together. So if you have any inclination, come join us.

These taster events are free. Come try it out, and if you're interested, go to www.KristaVanDerveer.com and click on women's groups. Okay, well, thank you so much. Barbs, it's always such a pleasure to get to be with you in any form, and this form as a podcast episode, I have a feeling we'll be doing more of these, and I'm so excited about what we've created, and it's a joy to be on this journey with you.

Krista, I am thrilled and just so excited about what we're doing together and what we're standing for for women in the world.

So good. Thank you, and thank you everybody for listening. We hope that you have a great rest of your week, and we'll talk to you next time. See you soon, bye.