Easily listen to The Art of We

97. Q&A: Help! My Husband Keeps Bringing Up The Past (And Won't Let It Go)

Episode 97 • 5th September 2024 • The Art of We • Krista Van Derveer and Dr. Will Van Derveer

Dr. Will Van Derveer 0:00

It's kind of like going to the gym and building that muscle and that capacity so that a complete and total security or assumption that the repair is inevitable, that every time we experience a disconnection, we're going to fully repair that. And it sounds kind of obvious to talk about it in words, but I think most people can probably understand that. You know, there's a lot of emotion around not knowing necessarily if that repair is coming or not. And for those of us who grew up in childhood environments where our parents were not great at modeling repair or didn't know how to at all, maybe you have no memory at all of your parents ever doing that, then it's learned. It's a learned thing.

Krista Van Derveer 0:46

Welcome to the Art of We podcast. Today we have a question from a community member about how to deal with a particular issue that she's having with her husband, and these are her words. “I've been with my husband since I was 18 (22 years together) the same argument comes up over and over again. We were on a break 20 years ago, and I kissed someone else. That's all. It is brought up over and over, and I'm quizzed all the time. I can't remember what I did yesterday. Nevermind 20 years ago. How do we get over the same topic?” So thank you so much for this question. I think it's such a good, juicy topic. And we actually did do a podcast episode number 92 that has a similar flavor to this, dealing with topics that come up over and over inside of partnership. But I love that this is a very specific example that we can use and talk about what comes up for you, Will, when you hear this question?

Dr. Will Van Derveer 1:43

Well first of all, I can very much relate to the question. I've been on both sides of this, where I was the one bringing things up over and over again, and I've also been the one who was holding space for my partner, bringing things up over and over again, and it's painful and it's frustrating and it's confusing, and I'm glad that we're talking about it, because I think there's some really effective ways to break this down and move through and and put behind, which I think a good place to start is, what is the shared desire between two people for the outcome of this conversation, right? Are you? Are you wanting to stay in the conversation looping for another 20 years? Or can you have a conversation about what you both want, if it's something different from that? I mean, presumably it's different. I mean, obviously our listener has a different desire, but it might be useful to get an explicit enrollment with her partner, her husband, of how do you want to be? What do you want to be talking about? Because I think relationships are really about like, what do we want to be talking about, I think, at the end of the day.

Krista Van Derveer 2:50

And having really explicit conversations about that, versus right, implicit or there's expectations about something that are unspoken, that kind of thing, right? I mean, clearly, when I hear this statement, clearly to me, he's not fully repaired about that incident 20 years ago when she kissed somebody and they were on a break. So he's not complete about it. And so I would take the approach of trying to understand, and maybe you, maybe a listener already has trying to understand what's actually going on for him such that it keeps coming up. But I love your starter question of being like, Hey, what's going on here? Do we actually want to be talking about this ongoingly, or are we both open to getting to the root of what this is all about? Right? Exactly, and I also can resonate, I know for me, when I'm bringing up topics over and over again. It's because I'm actually not complete about them, and sometimes I'm just making jokes about them and pretending like it's humor, but it's really not humor. Or I keep bringing it up, and usually what's underneath it for me is there's a misunderstanding of what kind of meaning making I'm making about the event, or I don't have all the information of what actually happened, or I have a need and request that I haven't spoken and we haven't agreed upon yet.

Dr. Will Van Derveer 4:11

Right for me, there's another possibility that, you know, I don't know why trauma is such a big thing in my system or my history, but it seems like I often have, like a non verbal, you know, deeply seated fear that just cycles in me when I'm in one of those loops. And, you know, so there's no amount of, like, conversation or verbal understanding that's gonna resolve that is what I found. So, you know, there are highly effective strategies for integrating those experiences and moving on. And you know, I've, I've had, you know, the good fortune of having access to a lot of those technologies, trauma therapy, somatic therapy, psychedelic therapy, whatever the therapy, couples therapy, which I'm not saying is something that is necessarily required to do. This at all, but sometimes when conversations can't get resolved verbally, then there can be like a mammalian or reptilian subconscious, somatically defined situation that needs to be addressed a different way.

Krista Van Derveer 5:18

Right. So if that was the case for these people. What would be your recommendation? Let's just say they can't work it out verbally, one on one, with each other, and we will give some tips about how we would approach that. But if it's a deeper level of trauma, what would you suggest this person does to help resolve the underlying trauma?

Dr. Will Van Derveer 5:39

Well, I think when I put my psychotherapist head on, the first thing I think of is EMDR, because it's highly effective. It's evidence based, it's quick. So, you know, sometimes a single event, trauma, like a car accident in the past, or a betrayal from the past, or something like that, can be resolved in just one or even just a handful of sessions. If EMDR is not the right tool, then, for example, if there's more complex layers to the trauma, if it was multiple traumas, if it was childhood trauma, then there may be a need to go deeper with somatic therapy.

Krista Van Derveer 6:17

Somatic therapy is really body based really getting the person into their body and where they're feeling things in their body and exploring those areas. For those people who don't know what somatic based therapy is, but you could reach out if you have questions about either of those, or how to find that kind of therapist. Reach out to us if you want more information about that. Or you could go into googs, Mr. Googs, and do a little search in your area for those things.

Dr. Will Van Derveer 6:44

If you want to get more informed about parts work, internal, family, systems, Dick Schwartz's work, we talk about a lot here.

Krista Van Derveer 6:54

Yeah, we practice that in our relationship. All these things, actually, we've practiced in our relationship for different various things.

Dr. Will Van Derveer 7:00

But why don't we explore before we go to they need therapy. Maybe there's more of a conversation that can be had between the two of these beautiful souls about what kind of agreements do they need to succeed. Let's just assume that both parties don't want to be in this conversation this time next year. They want to put this behind them.

Krista Van Derveer 7:19

Right, and that's probably a good topic to explore, a good question to explore, like, when the next time it's brought up, or before then, maybe even better, before it's brought up, is, hey, do we want to be talking about this for the next 20 years, like you had mentioned when we were preparing for this episode? Or do we want to try to resolve it actually, and get to the deeper issue of what's going on? Yeah, so that would be a first conversation to have, for sure. And if you're new to our work, you don't know that will and I are all about agreements and relationship agreements that really help build a container and a structure for us to stay connected, to repair from conflict, to do all the things that we need to do, so that we can actually be focused on the things that are most meaningful to us. So from an agreements perspective, what agreements are in place to deal with conflict in your relationship would be one question. If there aren't any agreements, you know, it's a good time to start that. I would say, to start agreements about conflict. You can go to our website, Krista van derveer.com and download our top 10 relationship agreements. But also for this episode, I think it's fair to assume that we're operating in a space where the husband doesn't feel complete about this issue. Why don't we take a break, and when we come back, we'll share how we would address this particular situation and what agreements we might put in place to help resolve something like this happening in the future. We'll be right back.

Dr. Will Van Derveer 8:53

Welcome back. We're going to go through a demonstration here of how you might go about having this conversation, and we're going to use an example that's a real example from our lives of something that got stuck in our is it gullet?

Krista Van Derveer 9:13

Is that like a turkey? Turkey Neck? Neck? Do we have a turkey neck? Are we getting that old?

Dr. Will Van Derveer 9:20

Well, hopefully not, but in any case, it got stuck in us for a minute, and then we needed to have a number of conversations to get through it.

Krista Van Derveer 9:30

So yeah, and actually, to be clear, almost five years.

Dr. Will Van Derveer 9:32

Five years, the five year conversation,

Krista Van Derveer 9:36

The person who asked the question said It's been 20 years, right? So I just want to give context that it's, you know, sometimes these things take a while until we really know how to address them.

Dr. Will Van Derveer 9:46

Definitely okay. So why don't you kick us off with approaching me about this issue that we were dealing with? You want to give the context?

Krista Van Derveer 9:55

Sure so it is probably six months after we got married, we got married on September 1, and it was around then that I found out that you had signed a significant business agreement with our business partners on our wedding date. And when I learned about that, I was like, whoa. Like, what like, how is it? How is that? How is that business partnership, like, officially formed on the same day that our wedding took place. And it really just hit me in a way that didn't feel good, because, one, I didn't know about it. And two, it's like, I really value our wedding day and want it to be sacred on its own and celebrate it like I want that day to be our day. And so when I found out about it, it just didn't feel good to me. And I understand that you guys had to get that started and do that, but it feels a little bit like not holding sacred or wedding day.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 11:02

Yeah. And we have talked about this a number of times over the last several years, and I can tell that it's still painful for you that that happened, and I feel sad that the impact of that is still causing pain for you.

Krista Van Derveer: 11:19

Thanks. I think I still don't fully understand why you guys had to choose that date, and how come I didn't know about it. Did you like, sneak the signature in on that date and like, like, I didn't even let know it. Like, were you signing you when you were putting your wedding outfit on and we're getting prepared to get married?

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 11:39

Yeah, paperwork is in the dressing room for the wedding. So it's important to give a little context of what actually went down in that, which is that we were coming up on the end of the year, and we needed to have documents to show that the company was open, because we're going to file a tax return. And so we needed to complete business formation documents that reflected a start date before when we started taking payments from people. And so as we got into the fall, we said, okay, you know, looking back, when did this start? We started receiving revenue in September. So we said, okay, September 1 is the start date. So it was something that came up later that we ended up retroactively signing. And the mistake, or the kind of blind spot for me was it didn't occur to me that September 1 would have that kind of impact on you and on us?

Krista Van Derveer: 12:41

Well it was interesting because thank you for sharing all that, and there's some new stuff in there that I didn't even know about. So in our modeling here, basically what we're attempting to model is generous, listening curiosity, taking responsibility for impact, even if it wasn't intended. But what's interesting to me is that we were on a walk two days ago with our dogs, and I didn't learn until two days ago that it was dated back to nine one I thought for almost five years that it was like decided in advance that on September 1, we're going to sign this paperwork together and have that be our business anniversary on top of our wedding anniversary. So just goes to show that there's probably impacts or misunderstandings or an incomplete conversation inside of these issues that come up on an ongoing basis when they keep coming up. I mean, it's happened to us several, several times inside of different things in our lives where it keeps coming up. It might come up as like a stab or a joke or disguised as humor, but usually, there's always something underneath that that isn't totally cleared up yet.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 13:51

I think that's right on, and it brings up this agreement that we have about abundant repair and how it's kind of surprising to me, in a way, how often that agreement comes up for us? It's really important for us.

Krista Van Derveer: 14:07

Yeah, and for the people who are newer to listening to us. How would you describe that agreement?

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 14:12

The commitment to abundant repair, is a commitment to getting back into full connection after a conflict, or we call it a rupture, a feeling of disconnection or a misunderstanding or hurt or feeling alone in the relationship, whatever the manifestation is. Can really feel it in your body when you're fully connected and there's no emotional charge left between us.

Krista Van Derveer: 14:41

Right, and we keep working it until we actually really feel that like, I think that everybody who's listening knows what it feels like to be fully repaired, even if they haven't put language to it before. But for you and me, for me, I should say it's like, I feel back in connection with you, not only that, but if it's abundant repair, I feel even closer to you I've. Stronger as a we stronger as a team, stronger as partners, and that we really learned something about ourselves or each other that we didn't previously have before.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 15:09

It’s kind of like going to the gym and building that muscle and that capacity so that it becomes and I'm not going to say it's already finalized in my system, in my body, but we're working toward a complete and total security or assumption that the repair is inevitable, that every time we experience a disconnection, we're going to fully repair that. And it sounds kind of obvious to talk about it in words, but I think most people can probably understand that. You know, there's a lot of emotion around not knowing necessarily if that repair is coming or not. And for those of us, for those of us who grew up in childhood environments where our parents were not great at modeling repair or didn't know how to at all, maybe you have no memory at all of your parents ever doing that, then, you know, it's learned.

Krista Van Derveer: 16:05

It's a learned thing when we're talking about an explicit agreement between two people that this is going to happen, so that we can lean into the relationship and know that we're going to abundantly repair when there is conflict. And sometimes it takes five years, it takes 20 years to realize that there is actually, oh, like, Okay, this thing isn't fully repaired, which is why it keeps coming up. And what I would say to the person who asked the question, I would say there could be a couple steps for you here, and I'm just kind of pulling these out of you know what I would probably do, but if you kept bringing things up to me, well, and you've modeled this so well for me, like, I've learned this from you, because you've done such a good job as, like, Oh, it sounds like this. There's a thing here that we haven't fully cleaned up. Like, it keeps getting brought up. It sounds like there's something that you're needing here. And you bring such heart and genuine care to that curiosity towards me that I just kind of am, like, I can't get defensive around it. I can't, like, do my normal shtick around it. But I just kind of melt into it. I'm like, Oh yeah, I guess there is, because I keep bringing it up. So I would bring the question forward, like, hey, it sounds like there's something still here for you. Would you be willing for us to get in there more and attempt to understand what's really happening for you? And then the next thing is to listen really generously. And by listening generously, it's like giving him, your partner, your husband, the space to be, to express, to really get in there deeply with what he's feeling or what he felt, and to bring more questions to understand even deeper. Will help me understand that, like, help me understand why you felt that XYZ was happening. Or help me understand why you have the story that I don't love you, or didn't love you, or help me understand why you feel that way.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 17:45

Exactly. And this kind of keys into another really important point, which you could either call a commitment or you could call a relationship skill, but it's something I've learned from you, which is that when we're expressing something that feels true to us. We're doing truth telling, even if it's subjective. You know, I'm having the experience of whatever we want to be mindful about what we're sharing. Is this share going to move us further toward the objective that we share with each other? Because if we're not aiming towards something together about what we're sharing about, then it can get a little unclear about, why are we talking about this thing? So in this example from our listener, thanks again for bringing this it's a really good topic. The question is, why is the sharing happening? You know, is, is the sharing of, hey, I've got another quiz for you, which can get pretty frustrating and, you know, if not annoying, right? Where are we going with this? What's the goal? What's the outcome that we're trying to get to? Are we trying to get to a full repair, or are we perseverating, which is a, you know, kind of psychiatric term of just going around in circles and not getting anywhere. There's nothing wrong with sharing just to be known. Nothing wrong with that. But I think in general, if we're going to share to be known, it usually works better with our partner if it's going toward something that you both want? Does that make sense?

Krista Van Derveer: 19:23

Well, sometimes I want to share to be known by you, just so you know me, so I'm not quite sure.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 19:29

Yeah, I guess what I'm talking about is this kind of coming back to the same thing over and over again. Okay? It's like, okay, you already let me know that that upset me, that I kissed somebody 20 years ago, and now you're letting me know again. So is this a different thing that you need me to know about, or is this the same thing, right? And if it's the same thing, then what are we actually up to in this conversation?

Krista Van Derveer: 19:53

Well, potentially, what's missing for him is that he's not feeling like he's heard. He's not feeling understood. So. So in this conversation, when the listener is bringing this or her husband, like asking the questions, bringing curiosity, listening generously, I would also say it might go a really long way to replicate back to him what you're hearing him say, oh, so it sounds like what you're saying is XYZ and ABC. Is that right? Like, I'm hearing you say that you really got scared and afraid in the in that moment, and it really impacted you, and you really feel like we haven't attended to it. Is that right? And he might say yes or no, if no, then it's like, Oh, okay. Help me understand. So I can really get it. Can you tell me again, and then replicate back and ask him, Okay, I got, I think we got that, is there anything else that you want me to know about, that is there more? And keep doing that process until he feels fully understood and fully heard, because that, that in itself, could be the thing that's not happening definitely, because the listener might be, who knows, she might be just kind of disregarding, ah, that happened 20 years ago. What are you worried about? Or why are you worried about? Or why are you concerned? Or dismissing his experience, which then doesn't resolve it. It just kind of like nails, the, you know, nails, the nail down deeper and still feels unresolved.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 21:14

Definitely, I've been on the receiving end of that, and that doesn't feel great to be dismissed, or, you know, be met with impatience, or totally some kind of predetermined judgment that there's something unauthorized about my speaking up about it, or something like that.

Krista Van Derveer: 21:30

Yeah and sometimes when things come up between you and me, I really need to make sure I'm in a space where I can have patience about a particular topic, where I'm like, here we go again. You know, like, why do we have to go here again? Like, I have to actually center myself and get into a different mode, which is really being for your success, being for my success, being for our success, and getting through this thing together. The last step I would just say, before we wrap here, is that I would also just see, like, what's needed. Maybe he's needing something from you that he hasn't gotten. Maybe it's assurance that you guys are in this together. Maybe it's an explanation about what your experience was, or why you chose to do that that he hasn't fully gotten yet. That's part of the repair process is to make sure each person has what they need so they can actually move forward in a way that feels good.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 22:20

100% agree, and I just want to thank you for practicing all of these relationship skills with me. It feels amazing when you receive me with generosity and patience and curiosity and, you know, really helps me to trust the process and overcome, you know, earlier experiences that led me to believe that I was really on my own, relationally and emotionally. So it's quite powerful how these tools work. So very grateful for our listener for bringing this question forward.

Krista Van Derveer: 22:54

Yeah me too, definitely, and it's definitely a team process. We're both getting lots of reps in the gym around our relational skills and learning so we can do it better next time. And yeah, thank you so much for this question. It's really a really important one that I think a lot of couples get into. So hopefully it's helpful. We'd love to hear from you, and otherwise, anybody who's listening to this, please reach out to us with other topics that you want to hear about. You can reach us at Krista van derveer derveer.com can directly reach out to us there, or you can post a topic or feedback on your favorite podcast platform, which we read every single one, and we deeply appreciate it. See you next time. Thanks for joining us, and we'll talk with you next week. Bye.

More Episodes

97. 97. Q&A: Help! My Husband Keeps Bringing Up The Past (And Won't Let It Go)