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117. Over-Merging & Hyper-Independence: The Path to Secure Love

Episode 117 • 6th March 2025 • The Art of We • Krista Van Derveer and Dr. Will Van Derveer

Krista Van Derveer: 00:00

I feel like we've made a lot of progress in creating not only healing with that wound of mine, but also the security inside of our partnership, that I actually don't need as much of that anymore, and so we're onto other better and greater things together. And I know there's been other things that you've been holding in our relationship that we could talk about the same thing. So we're both doing it for each other, and I love this perspective of holding each other's parts and our parts as our responsibility.

Welcome to the Art of we today, before we dive in, I want to say thank you so much to Melissa. Melissa, thank you so much for your review and the questions that you left for us there for us to talk about, which we're going to get into today. But just want to let you know how much it means to us to hear your feedback and to see your review. So thank you so much, and we're excited to dive into these topics. So one question that you asked was about, what is the impact on the we of over merging and so for those of you who are newer to our podcast, I just want to start out by explaining what we mean by the we. So we like to hold the we as the entity that includes me and will both of us as individuals, but it also transcends us and we really relate to it as its own entity. Really helps us in our relationship. Anything you want to add about that Will?

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 01:20

I think it's useful to talk about that the we might have specific needs that are somewhat reminiscent of something that you might or I might want individually, but may be very different in some cases. So it's a living, breathing entity that may have its own desires and preferences and so on. So that's how we are thinking about it,

Krista Van Derveer 1:40

yeah, and in context to this conversation, we also hold that it's really important that we have very strong, individuated individuals inside of the we so the more that you and I will are appreciating our differences and our similarities and we're not trying to be The same person, the more that we can use our collective experience and intelligence and wisdom to help us succeed as a couple and to really understand what the we needs from us. When things get tricky or challenging, or we find ourselves in a place where we don't know how to move forward, we're often asking, Okay, well, what is the we need from us right now? What would be the healthiest thing that we can do for the entity of us right now? And like you said, sometimes it's not what either of us wants to do. So, Melissa, this is a great question, what is the impact on the we of over merging? And I have a lot to say about this as I was thinking about it, but I'm wondering, well, if you want to just start and take a stab at what happens for you when you hear that question.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 02:44

I think about the difference between interdependency and CO dependency, and we talked about this several episodes ago, but this idea of over merging into another person kind of suggests that there's not a well developed person there to begin with, prior to entering into the we which is what you were just talking about, is how we need to be differentiated and know who we are in order to show up and contribute and stay in touch with who we are as we deepen into our relationship,

Krista Van Derveer 3:16

right? And you know, I would admit that out of the two of us, and as a nine on the Enneagram, I'm more likely to be the one who would tend to over merge into you in your world. And while it is a developmental aspect, I think we could look at through, through that frame of me having less of a secure sense of myself that I need to go over into your worlds in some form. Is that what you're saying?

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 03:45

You’re bringing up a really good point, which is that there are different styles of attachment that on the one side could look like over merging. On the other side could look at under merging. Right? People who are more on the avoidant end might be more likely to maintain the moat around their individuality. And these are some of the common patterns that that we see in adult partnerships, right?

Krista Van Derveer: 04:11

And attachment, which we talked about. And there's lots of episodes that you could scroll through and look at, you know, go deeper into the attachment piece, which I love that you're bringing that up, because I feel like, if we're really for each other's success, which is what we're standing for with the we, then if somebody has a tendency to over merge, or somebody has a tendency to under merge, they're not in the we as much or as collaboratively, then there's probably some kind of support that they're needing there, versus, like, making them wrong, which I think we can tend to do that as a society is, if I'm coming across to you as needy, or I want to have a lot of contact, or some flavor of that, often, it might be like a little bit of a turn off, or there's something wrong with them. When you think there's a judgment there, usually, right?

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 04:59

I mean, in the way that I just started the conversation, that there could be under development of the person's individuality or their sovereignty before entering the relationship, even just starting it that way, can imply that there's something wrong there, or it's not okay to find yourself over merging with another person. I think that the interesting thing about this concept of over merging is that the over merging person typically gets more judgment than the more individualistic person in the couple. And I've been on the receiving end of that, and it's it's interesting because, you know, in our marriage, I tend to be the more isolationist person, maybe, but in the relationship I was in previously for 20 years, I was over merging, or, you know, continually pursuing someone who was extremely distant and isolating. So I think that's a really interesting thing to look at, is that, and if you're being accused of over merging. You know, what's your partner doing, or how is that showing up and being contributed to by both sides of the partnership?

Krista Van Derveer: 06:06

Right? There could be some polarization going on there that has the person feel like they need to reach out from our contact because they're not getting enough contact. But I also want to say that even inside of relationship, I don't think we enter relationships fully individuated, at least. That's not my experience, but it could be an aspiration that as we continue to move along in our partnership, that we're into more healthy individuation, and there's less over merging and less under merging.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 06:37

I think the whole process of developing that balance is it's all about communication, right? And so if the question, if the conversation between two people in a relationship keeps coming up around, well, you know, it seems like there's over merging happening, or, you know, whether it's like I'm taking responsibility, I'm seeing myself over merging, or the other person saying you're over merging with me, it sounds like a an opportunity to revisit what your agreements are and also clean up any impacts that haven't been talked about. It also seems like a great opportunity to look at parts, what parts are being activated here. You know, if someone, let's say, for example, goes on a hike and they, you know, had their ringer off, and the person at home was freaking out because they haven't heard from their partner, and they've left him a bunch of texts or something like that. You know, what parts are coming up there in that moment for the one who's scared that the hiker person is not safe, or something like that.

Krista Van Derveer: 07:41

I think the growth mindset here is like, Oh, wow, great. Somebody's having a over merging or an under merging, and fantastic. This is awesome that we're identifying this. Here's work to do for us. We get to support each other, yeah. And, you know, I think it takes a while to get there, inside of a partnership, to really use that framework. But I really feel that way. It's like, if something's going on that isn't really supportive or is triggering one person, it's like, great, here's work for us to do together, and what's the impact on the we of over merging? I think the we is going to feel out of balance for both of you, and so you're both going to be picking up on that. And then, like you said, Will I think it's an explicit conversation of what's going on and how people are feeling and what needs aren't getting met, and are there agreements to support those needs to get met so we can create more security within our partnership that we're going to have the contact that we need ultimately, with each other? Yeah, definitely. Okay, so can we go into Melissa's next question? Sure, let's do it. Okay, great. So Melissa's next question is, what if one person's need for contact is actually covering up a fear or wound they have?

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 08:47

That's a great question. Want to kick us off.

Krista Van Derveer: 08:51

I feel like I've had this in my in my past with you. Yeah, a really good example is when, and I've talked about this on previous episodes, is is when you go away and you're on a men's trip or a bike trip or something that's, you know, maybe out of cell range. And part of my wound and fear that's happened in the past of losing a partner and never getting to say goodbye to them gets kicked up because I can't get in contact with you. And I don't know, you know, if you're safe after this epic road biking trip, you know what kind of risks you're taking, and I can get scared, and so I might have a stronger need for contact around that kind of content

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 09:33

The approach that we've taken, and I feel like you could decide, you know how you want to answer this, but for me, it works extremely well for us, I think, is that we're both responsible for all of the parts that live inside of each of us. So in this case, you have an injury from a traumatic loss that is very real. And why would I. Judge that, or complain about that, or, you know, not be up for fully integrating that experience that you had before we met, when the power of our we is capable of healing that together through not just showing up more abundantly with communication, which is part of it. But maybe what Melissa's saying is like, if you're not dealing with moving forward in the healing process, and you're continuing to sort of feel obligated to, oh, man, I gotta, guys, I gotta take a break here on the side of the road on my bike trip, so I can text Krista so she can be okay.

Krista Van Derveer: 10:40

So she can feel safe and connected? Yeah? Totally, yeah, right.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 10:45

So that's where the sort of combination of challenging one another to grow and heal while at the same time showing up in a very personalized, very custom, bespoke way for the wounds that really do need extra care.

Krista Van Derveer: 11:00

Yeah. And as a result of us doing these initial steps, the things that I needed and that we agreed to and felt okay for you, it's not like you were compromising. I feel like we've made a lot of progress in creating, not only healing with that wound of mine, but also the security inside of our partnership that I actually don't need as much of that anymore, and so we're onto other better and greater things together. And I know there's been other things that you've been holding in our relationship that we could talk about the same thing. So we're both doing it for each other, and I love this perspective of holding each other's parts and our parts as our responsibility.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 11:34

Exactly. I mean, we were just reflecting with you the other day about a different kind of specific injury from my past that, and you've showed up so abundantly for that has really softened a lot for me. So again, it sort of goes beyond reciprocity, and it's, it's kind of like a commitment to take care of the whole that doesn't keep score about, like, oh, well, I did this for Krista, and so now she's going to do this for me. It's not a tit for tat thing, right?

Krista Van Derveer: 12:02

And I would say within your partnership, the two of you are doing things like this to support each other, but it's not getting movement. The healing isn't happening. And like you were saying, Well, it starts to become a burden, or it starts to become something that feels like we're not getting anywhere around it. Then I would actually go to other steps, like maybe there's actually some sort of therapy or coaching that they might need to get support with this particular piece, whatever it is for them, their fear or their wound that's coming up that can't get resolved within the partnership itself, I would definitely go for extra support.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 12:34

Totally agree. I mean, if, if we had sacred cows in our relationship, in other words, if there were injuries that one of us had that we couldn't move forward in healing, then I think it would be that would be really hard for me. I feel like having an agreement with you that we both feel great about, that we're going to turn over every stone and heal every injury that either one of us ever had in the past, gives me a feeling of permission to be myself and then address whatever injuries either one of us has specifically, but not feel like, Oh, I've got a I'm obligated now to just never touch that fragile place.

Krista Van Derveer: 13:11

yeah, that would be really hard. Yeah. Okay. Well, do you feel like that's complete for now, and we can move on to Melissa's third question. Yeah, that's a great question. Thanks, Melissa. These are really great questions, actually. Let's take a quick break and we come back. We'll answer Melissa's very juicy third question. Be right back. Welcome back. Okay, let's get into Melissa's third question, does the we always need to default to the higher need for contact? So I'm assuming she's saying somebody in the relationship has a higher need for contact. Maybe one person doesn't always want to meet that need, or they have a different need. Maybe it's a better way to say that. And does that mean we always need to default to the person who has the highest need?

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 13:53

Well, we like to put on this Kendrick Lamar song when we just want to be inside of our own space for a while. You want to tell them about it. Such a good song.

Krista Van Derveer: 14:08

Are you talking about the bitch? Don't Kill My Vibe. Song, yeah. Okay. I mean, here's the deal. It's a great song if we're not calling the woman a bitch and she's the one that's like, you know, like making his life horrible, and we're just taking it at face value and being like, I could call you a bitch. Yeah, bitch. Don't Kill My Vibe.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 14:28

Well isn't the one who wants more contact? Always a bitch. I mean, it's not a gender thing. I think it's just like a complainy kind of like, no, no. I don't want to share my day with you.

Krista Van Derveer: 14:42

I mean, are you talking about a female dog or, okay, no, I think that we need to maybe take out the word bitch in order to have it be communication that we're trying to communicate here. Look, I sometimes have a high need for contact, and sometimes you have a really high need for contact. But I would never go to the place of saying something mean about you because you have a higher need of contact. If I'm in a place of an eye space where I'm like, I actually need some time away from the Wii. I need to actually, like, close my door and light my candle, shut out the dogs and shut out the husband. Then I probably would get a little bit frustrated if you had a high level of need for contact, yeah, but I would never call you a bitch.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 15:28

There's just something very poetic about “I got my drink, I got my music. I won't share it for today.” I just love that line anyway, to be more straightforward in the answer to the question, I think anytime you're asking a question of always or never, you know, it brings up, for me, curiosity about, you know, in such a question, I wonder if there is an imbalance in someone's, I don't know if it's Melissa's or someone's relationship, where there is a sense that someone always wants more contact, and the other One, more or less always feels like they're on their heels because they're not wanting so much contact. And I think that, again, it's a classic dynamic of the ambivalent person and the avoidant person. The ambivalent person, for reference, we've talked about this a lot, but just headline is the one who tends to regulate their nervous system through contact with the other person. The avoidant person is the one who regulates their nervous system through self contact or going inside and kind of going away from connection or conversation with the other person. So our view is that all people have needs for both. But there are these styles, and the styles can get very exaggerated in partnerships.

Krista Van Derveer: 16:43

Yes and there is one practice that you and I have, we actually even have an as agreement, a relationship agreement, that says we agree to prioritize one another's needs for CO regulation. So co regulation, I would say it's more of a we practice where if one of us is dysregulated, and in that case, they might need more contact from their partner that we're actually practicing coming together to support the regulation of the person who's dysregulated. Now, if this is abused or uneven, again, not tit for tat, but overused by one person versus another person, or one person is having, you know, a trigger or trauma response to something that doesn't seem to get better over time. I would not suggest this, but I think that in our partnerships, the first time that I've really tried the CO regulation method, and to me what this agreement has been like, and let me know. Agree with this, but I remember early on in our relationship, where, if I was dysregulated, we agreed that I would call you on the phone during the work day, and that, of course, unless you couldn't, absolutely couldn't, that you would pick up the phone and we would prioritize supporting each other. Getting regulated Is that what your memory was definitely and vice versa? Yeah. So I would say that just practicing that for a little bit went a long way. I think that it strengthened the security of us in our partnership to know that we're there for each other when needed, yeah, and gave us even a little bit more strength to self regulate when each other aren't around. I don't know if you agree with that.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 18:24

Yeah. I agree with that for sure. I think that if you are out there and you identify as a person who tends to feel more needy or more going toward your partner to get that down regulation, or if you're the one who tends to break off connection with your partner and kind of, you know, disappear inside of yourself. And this is called, we call this auto regulation, from Stantec and and so on, whichever type of paradigm you identify more with, there's a developmental path here. So there's a way to if you tend to go inside, then your developmental path is to learn how to depend on your partner more for down regulating your stress. If you tend toward going toward your partner to down regulate your stress. Your developmental path is to learn how to self regulate more when your partner is not available.

Krista Van Derveer: 19:15

Totally. And you could sit there with your partner and say, Okay, I need some help in auto regulation, meaning I can, you know, regulate myself I'm in stress. Let's brainstorm some ideas of what I can try and do before I call you or before I reach out to you.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 19:29

Yeah. Team thing, exactly. Yeah. Why not have it be a team thing? And the goal here is not to, you know, become like some androgynous, like completely balanced person who doesn't identify as either avoidant or ambivalent. The purpose here is to become more resilient and more available for your moment by moment experience, right?

Krista Van Derveer: 19:50

And that leads me back to asking the question of, in this case, maybe Melissa, have you and your partner had a conversation about what? And the purposes of your relationship, because this can inform how the two of you want to talk about this, this kind of thing. Do you want to be having more strength and resilience individually and as a we do you not what does that look like? So if you're clear about what you're up to in your partnership, the way that you handle these things or talk about these things can become more clear between the two of you,

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 20:22

100% and a language that I learned from you Krista, is that I love is you know what pulls you forward? So when you define what you're up to as a couple, then that mission or that purpose can pull you forward to take on those developmental tasks that are required for you to have a bigger fulfillment of that mission or purpose.

Krista Van Derveer: 20:46

Right to actually be able to live into it together. Yeah, I love that.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 20:50

So do you need to default to the one who needs more contact? No, of course not. Both people need to feel great about the kind of agreements that they have with each other. And so if someone is feeling like they're having to default to someone else or vice versa, then it sounds like there's just a need to revisit what the agreements are. And as you said, what you're up to as a couple.

Krista Van Derveer: 21:14

Yeah exactly. And have a real conversation about what's going on for both of you. That helps a lot.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 21:20

Yeah, because this agreement to drop everything to be available to the other person, as you pointed out, it's very important to just want to underline this can be abused, right? It can feel out of balance. If one person is pulling the fire alarm every day and needing to be regulated by the other person and the one who's receiving that isn't doing the same, it's going to feel unfair, right? And fairness and justice and collaboration are all really critical elements of this kind of relationship we're talking about.

Krista Van Derveer: 21:51

Definitely. And I'll just add one more piece here, which is how critical it is to keep becoming more self aware of yourself and other aware, meaning the impacts that you're having on your partner as a result of continually reaching out for contact, or on the other side of that, isolating yourself and not being available. Like, what are the impacts on the we as a result of that? What are the impacts on your partner? There's a co creative dynamic there, like we started with.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 22:21

Absolutely and coming in hot is something that every couple has a different sort of capacity to hold that between one person coming in hot with the other one. But even that can be that capacity can be developed too, right on, right yeah, I don't know how it is for you, Krista, but if I'm coming in hot with you, I'm a hot mess, and I need help to get regulated, you know, and I'm acknowledging that, you know, I'm bringing a lot here to be held, and I'm aware of that, yeah, that's helpful. So implicit in that, as I'm I'm grateful that you're showing up and being willing to be disturbed by my disturbance, right?

Krista Van Derveer: 22:58

It's not like you're putting it on me.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 23:00

I’m not expecting that, or, you know, feeling entitled to that, it has a different impact, right?

Krista Van Derveer: 23:06

Yep, totally awesome. Well, I love again these questions. Thank you again. Melissa, so much for your review. If any others of you who are listening to this appreciate the content and want to hear about specific topics, we would so appreciate if you left a rating and review. We get, well, I get giddy every time I get to read review, and I text, well, I don't call him during the day and say, We got another one. Let's check it out. Yeah. So thank you from the bottom of our hearts.

Dr. Will Van Derveer: 23:36

We love it. Yeah. We love it. Love the conversation. So thank you for that.

Krista Van Derveer: 23:39

Thanks for joining us today, and we'll see you next week.

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