In this episode of The Art of We, Krista is joined by longtime friend and renowned relationship coach Shana James for a candid, heartfelt conversation about cultivating deeper intimacy in partnership. From redefining what sex actually means to designing date nights that create more presence, pleasure, and connection — we talk about insights and tools that might just shift how you think about  intimacy, sex, and what’s possible in your relationship. This episode is full of heart-opening perspectives on what it really means to be intimate with another human being.

“The Art Of We” podcast with Krista Van Derveer and Dr. Will Van Derveer

(02:13) Welcome Shana James

(04:13) Impact of growing up without emotional intimacy

(06:42) The question that changed Shana’s client’s relationship

(07:02) What is intimacy, really?

(09:57) Shana’s 7-date night ritual

(12:15) Creating turn-on by removing pressure

(14:07) Practicing presence and attunement in intimacy

(17:46) Prioritizing intention for opening more possibility

(20:00) Perimenopause, stress, and shifting desire

(26:53) Breaking inherited relational patterns 

(32:36) When your partner shuts down or isn’t growth-minded

(35:36) Calling your partner into their greatness

(43:33) Redefining sex

Reach out with your thoughts, experiences, and topics you want to hear about. We love hearing from you!

Resources Mentioned: 

• Our Top 10 Relationship Agreements 
• Shana James’ Honest Sex Book
• Shana James Quiz

Get in Touch: 

• The Art Of We Website
• The Art of We Instagram 
• Integrative Psychiatry Institute: Psychedelic Therapy Training

Rate, Review & Follow on Apple Podcasts: 

If you want to show your support for this show, please consider rating and reviewing The Art of We on Apple Podcasts. To do that, open the Apple Podcasts app and search for The Art of We. Scroll to the bottom of the package and rate with 5 stars. Let us know your favorite part of the show by clicking “Write a Review.” While you’re at it, follow the show so you can get the latest episode delivered to your phone weekly. 

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We can ask for what we want. And my sense, when I work with people who are struggling in relationships is like, be as open, inspiring, vulnerable. Do it in a way where you know you've given your all and it's not because of you that someone's not stepping up or stepping in. Don't go in there and have a temper tantrum and then be like, I'm not getting what I want my relationship, and I don't want anyone to blame anybody, but go all in and see if I open my heart and I ask for what I want and need, whatever your gender. Can we start to make some progress toward it? And if so, if somebody's willing, then we can build on that.

Welcome to the Art of we podcast. I'm your host, Krista Van Derveer, today's episode is extra special because I'm joined by a long time dear friend and truly extraordinary relationship coach, Shayna James. And we don't hold back in this conversation. We dive deep into how to cultivate more intimacy in relationship, even when life feels full or sex feels complicated, you'll hear about uncommon practices for deepening connection. Shayna's Refreshing definition of sex, which I love, and shayna's creative approach to date nights, which I truly can't wait to try with. Will It sounds fun and edgy and different. I can't wait before we dive in a quick headline about Shayna. Shayna James is a longtime relationship coach with a master's in psychology in over two decades of experience helping people deepen connection, build trust and keep passion alive in their partnerships. She's the creator of the man alive podcast and her new podcast called practicing love. Her deeply inspiring TEDx Talk is a must watch. It's called what 1000 men's tears reveal about the crisis between men and women. She's also the author of two books honest sex and power and pleasure. She's truly a powerhouse in the domain of intimacy in relationships, and I hope you enjoy this connection and conversation as much as I did. Now let's dive in.

Welcome Shayna to the art of we podcast. It is so fun to get to connect with you here. Thank you so much for coming on and being with us today.

I'm so happy to be here with you. I love being with you. Anywhere. I'll go anywhere with you.

Oh, I feel the same way. And I was actually thinking back to when I first met you, and it was in 2010 which is a long time ago.

I love that you remember that, or that you know that I tracked it.

I tracked it. I didn't remember it. Look it up. But it was when you were leading the authentic woman's experience with Alexis Shepherd, the two of you were leading that that was a program that you were putting on at the time in San Francisco, and I remember it was kind of, it was one of the first points that I had with authentic relating. And this is, like, that kind of arena, yeah. And at the time it was kind of like edgy. It was edgy for us to go into as women. It was like this whole experience that we're going to have where we were going to find out more things about ourselves, and, you know, in some good challenges for our lives get messy

and real

and get messy. And we did, and you and Alexis really started my journey in this deep dive in authentic relating that makes me happy, and it was beautiful to do with you and with women. Honestly, was great.

Yeah that makes me so happy. I think about that now. That is part of our history, and having been in these communities where we can be open and honest and messy, and it's been interesting to get older and become a mom and be around people who haven't had that in their lives. And I'm seeing now how rare it is, whereas when I was younger, I just thought, this is the way life is, but most people don't get to have that.

Krista Van Derveer 3:54

Yeah. What do you notice? If anything around the people who like you and me, we've been in a relationship for a long time. We were totally into still, are probably into this kind of relating, versus the people that you know who haven't had that kind of experience growing up. Is there something or a few things that you notice?

the people who I know through this, we can just feels like we can just drop in, a moment and admit like, this is the thing that I'm struggling with. This is what I feel vulnerable about. This is where, you know, this is what I'm really wanting or longing for. Here's the grief or here's like, it's just all here, and we are so accepting of each other. And when I see people who haven't had that, I definitely notice a little bit more of holding it together, or feeling, I mean, I still feel hesitant sometimes to share with people, especially people who aren't haven't done this, but I think I'm more willing to just be like, uh, this is the messy me, yeah, and it just looks harder over there when I watch people trying to hold it together. And. Then when I coach people who are in romantic relationships trying to keep it together, that is, I don't know I want to say harder, but you know, it also looks hard, because I want people to have someone to lean into. I know you and will have that relationship, and I have that with Mark, my partner, and it's like we can just lean in and know that we're going to be held and know that we're going to be supported and believed in, and all those things. And I think if we're hiding or holding back or just afraid to show who we really are in that moment, it's harder to have that and talk about intimacy, like the topic of today, yeah, that's like, feels like a really big part of if we can't be revealed. If we don't feel like it's safe, then it seems really hard to have intimacy.

Yeah, there's a client who I worked with today, who I'm just I was so excited when he was like, you know, my partner and I, they're new in the past couple months, you know, things were kind of off. They felt a little funky. So instead of just thinking, Oh, well, this isn't going to work. You know, they asked themselves the question, one of the questions I had posed him was, well, how can I love you better? Or here's what would feel more like love to me. And he sent me this whole write up that they, you know, she captured the notes of what that was, and then, and they really got into like, oh, when you're going through a problem, here's how you like to be responded to. When I'm going through a problem. It's actually totally different. It's quite the opposite. Like, I want to be supported and given ideas, and you just want you know, more guidance to or support to, like be in your heart and not be in your head or right. And if we don't know these things about our partners. Intimacy is really hard to have.

I love that you just said that as I was getting ready for today, I've been thinking a lot about this topic intimacy, like, What even is intimacy? And I'm sure it's different for people, but what I hear about your client around love is that they actually got together and had a conversation about what that even means to love each other, is that, right?

Yes which reminds me of your agreements too, right? It's like we've got to know what love is, or how we feel loved in what ways have us feel loved, or, I don't know the grammar of that, what has me feel loved? What has you feel loved? Yeah, if we don't know that, it's kind of a guessing game. And I think that is how the most of the culture, most of the world out there, tends to do it like, Yes, I don't know. We're not, we're not taught about this stuff.

So every year we get into our birthday season, which is, his is in March, and mine's in May, yeah. And even though, like, we work this every single year, you're reminding me of where we get into trouble, which is this kind of weird cultural indoctrination about how to do birthdays, which for me, it's like, okay, I need to figure out what he wants without him telling me what he wants, and if I do it right, and then he'll have a great birthday and be memorable, and he'll feel loved, and he'll do all these things. And even though we've done a whole episode on, like, how not to do that a couple years ago, every season we come around, it still happens. But it's like, if we're not having the explicit conversation, and he's not, we're not proactively supporting him, yeah, to what he actually wants, then we're in that same game over and over again. And I think like you're saying it's like, at least when I was growing up, the people who were modeling modeling relationship were not doing more of these explicit conversations with each other.

No, no. And I love that because I mean, Mark and I have only been together. It's been almost three years. We've had a couple two or three birthday seasons for each of us, and we've both admitted like, Oh, this feels stressful. I'm trying to think of something that you're gonna love or that it's gonna make you happy, and you know, and then ending up asking like, Okay, well, what would make you happy? What are you wanting? I mean, in some ways, I don't like when people try to guess. For me, I don't need it to be a surprise. I want it to be something, I think, especially being a mom and a business owner and being so busy, I don't want to like this might sound awful, but like, I don't want to waste time with a surprise. If I'm not going to like it, I want to know what it is so that I can prepare for it and then, like, enjoy, relax, and know that it's going to be the thing that I want. But totally right. If we're not talking about it that, right? We are stressing ourselves out more.

Yeah, and I think there is responsibility. I'm just I'm gonna say you, in this case, yeah, for you to figure out what you do want. Yes, I think so too. And I have a hard time doing that. I think will has a hard time doing that. But yeah, well, right?

And both of us are people pleasers. I don't know about you too. So putting attention on ourselves. What do we want? That can be harder then what I love is being a team about it. We've also created, I don't know how I told you this, but we've created this series of seven dates. Oh, it started with Betty Martin's three minute game. Have you ever done that?

I haven't. Sounds amazing.

So it's a touch game where you're working with giving and receiving. It's giving and receiving, and it's doing the touching, and it's so hard. It's mind breaking because it's..

I think I have done it. It's where, it's where I would I'll just say me and will, where I would touch will for three minutes the way I want to touch him. Yep, yes, I have done that.

Well okay, so it's touch as the giver, touch as the receiver, and then being touched as the giver and being touched as the receiver, so it breaks apart. This is why it's mind bending. Okay, because you could be receiving touch, but you're the giver in that moment, and so what you realize is that the person who's doing the touching is actually receiving from you. Yes, right? It breaks my brain every time, even though I've been doing this for years.

Because I'm touching will the way that I want to touch him, so I'm receiving something pleasurable for myself.

I mean, I think there's another exercise where it's like, how do I want to touch for my own pleasure? Oh, okay, slightly different, but same basic concept. So we ended up taking this and turning it into dates instead of just a three minute thing. And oftentimes, you know, when we got to the one, which was, what do I want you to do for me, for my pleasure, and for a whole evening, what do I want that to look like? And both of us sort of just like, floundered. We were like, you know, I don't know. I don't know how to know what I want, because it feels like too much to ask for. And so then we started having these conversations of, okay, well, what if I help you? You know, we're gonna have conversations leading up. Let's talk about what would feel good, what are you scared of? What would make you know, what would be most meaningful for you? And then we're as a team, and by the time we get to that night, we feel so connected, and we've worked through so much, the fear and the for me, often the tears and the all that other stuff that right? It's part of the intimacy, and then we get to have even more intimacy because we've been connected about it. Instead of, I'm gonna create this separate thing for you. I hope you like it. I hope I get it right. I hope you don't do something to mess it up.

Totally, totally. I love what you guys created together. So are you saying just to dive in there a little bit? Are you saying that it would be like a any kind of thing, like, I would love to receive, being driven to a dinner place. The dinner place is this or are you talking about, like in the bedroom, or is it spectrum?

We ended up doing both because, like, one of mine, I was like, I want to experience timelessness. I feel so bound by time, and it stresses the crap out of me. I was like, I want to go to dinner not look at time. I want to eat slowly. I want to just be in the moment, in the now. And it was so amazing. I mean, it was, it was incredible. Like, I don't do that. Usually, I don't give myself permission to do that. And then it was like, Okay, I want to come home and I want you to massage me and right? And then I want to see where it goes. I mean, I didn't have any in that one. I don't think I had a specific, Oh, I did one time. I think I, I was like, I want to, oh, because there's another one where the language isn't exactly right, and you can play with the language of it, but like, oh, I want to use you for my pleasure, something like that, like, and that one was super tricky, because nobody wants to be objectified. There's got to be consent. There's got to be all these things. But so we, you know, as talking through that I was like, I want to experience how I can open my heart and my soul through sex, by using your presence and, you know, like the divine masculine in this timeless way, right? So it just, I mean, it's gone all different places for both us.

This sounds amazing. Is there a way that people can learn about this?

Yeah, yeah, we're gonna write it down at some point.

But if it's, if it's seven nights, are you alternating nights? Sounds amazing, exactly. And how do you even Coach Mark to show up as the divine masculine holding? Is it okay for me to ask this? Yes, that's such a great question. Are you asking him to, like, be a spacious container without, like, his full presence and attention on you. Are you coaching him? Tell me more about that.

Yeah, that's a great question. Okay, so I think part of it is asking for him to have his attention on me and to, you know, I think in the bedroom, it was like, okay, wanting him to pleasure me in some way. And I wanted to practice saying what felt good what didn't feel good like I wanted to practice opening the portal, or the doorway into this deeper, more intimate, more spiritual experience. And what I understood about that for myself was it's a fine line between something that feels like kind of agitating and then something that is incredibly blissful. It could just be like a minor little shift or a different pace, a different pressure, a different you know. So I think in that moment, it was like, can we explore what it's like? How do I find that doorway? For myself. And so it was a lot of me asking and noticing my own body and my responses. And what am I longing for right now? And will you be here with me in this discovery as I discover it? And then will you put your attention on me? And what do you notice? Right? Oh, I noticed. Well, you said that one, and you seemed like, oh, that might feel okay. And you said that one, and you just totally lit up. So like, let's try going in that direction and asking for flexibility. You know, will you be willing to switch with me? Even if it feels like some kind of you could take it personally, like I'm saying, maybe you're not doing it good enough. That's not what I'm saying, but you might take it that way, but in this container where we're playing and having this kind of intimacy, can you set that aside for now? Unless you can't, right? If you really can't, then we pause and we connect about that. But it's, it's more of this practice of, on that night, it's like, how do we make it for me, yeah, and then on another night, how do we make it for him? And on some of those nights, you know, it's been beautiful, like I and I've been scared because I'm like, maybe this isn't good enough. But then when I put my attention on him, or I, you know, one night, we did the chakras, and so I just put my attention on different parts of his energy or his body, and then kind of just felt into intuitively, maybe a blessing, or what I want for him, or things like that. And then, you know, we moved into something sexual as well. But at the end, he was like, not to say that sex wasn't mind blowing or amazing, but I've never had anybody put their hand on my heart and tell me how much you know they love me and all the things that they appreciate about me, and so it's amazing, right? It doesn't have to be sexual for it to really get in or feel ecstatic or beautiful or loving.

I love this experience that you're sharing. And you know when I think about intimacy and what it means to me, it means, well, it means a lot of presence, and I'm hearing so much presence, yeah, and also, when I'm with somebody else, it's also really about like, generous heart, generous listening, totally shared reality, which means there are differences and there are similarities, but what I'm hearing and What you and Mark are navigating, there is a lot of presence, really, and a lot of what you know feels deeply intimate, yeah? And as a woman who's super busy and has a lot going on with family and work and relationship, you know you were saying before we started, is just like, super full. There's a lot going on, yeah. And what I'm also hearing is that you and Mark are prioritizing these moments.

And to be totally transparent, I mean, I think it took us a little over a year to do the seven dates. It wasn't like seven weeks in a row. You know, I have a kid. He is kid like, yeah, yeah. So it took a while, but there was also conversation about it leading up to it, and we're planning another one. I think it's the end of this month, or sometime in June, right? Sometimes it takes us, like, a month or a month and a half to get it on the calendar for a night that we actually know that it's nothing else is happening, and I don't have my kid and but there's a commitment to that, right? And there's intention, and at least for me and for anybody listening, I think you can check in with yourself and see if this is true, because I never want to say that we all work the same way. But there's something for me about when there's intention, or when there's kind of a container created or a context, like we are in the context of me receiving pleasure, or we are in the context of him exploring, you know, how he would feel more loved or right? There's something about that that I feel freer, or I feel some part of me comes in, and I know like as a woman who's going through perimenopause, sex isn't always me too desire. I'm like, but when I have put myself in the context of, okay, now my generous heart is giving Yes, right? Or I'm gonna let myself be here, body to body, with no pressure that something has to happen, but also knowing that we know each other so well that we can attune to each other and love each other and and care for each other. I still sometimes have this inner resistance, right? Some part of me is just like, oh, it's gonna be work or whatever, totally, just to be honest. But there's also, I think what transcends that is the remembering we have that kind of intimacy. And I think if a couple doesn't have that kind of intimacy, I can 100% understand why either one of them would just be like, I don't want to. It's too much. It doesn't feel good. I don't feel seen, I don't feel understood, I don't feel attuned to, I don't feel cared for, if they're not…

practicing prioritizing this kind of intimacy that you're talking about?

Or just if they don't have their own sense of intimacy, right? So if they're not saying this is what feels good, this is what doesn't feel good, if they're not being honest with each other, yeah, it's really hard to feel connected or to feel intimate. And then if you're not feeling that, I feel like, as a woman in perimenopause, I'm like, I would not bother being sexually intimate with anyone?

Totally, yeah. And I think you're bringing up a point too. That's really true for me in general. If I'm not connected to myself, yeah, and if I'm not slowing down enough to know the nuanced complexities as a female, in a woman, in a woman's body, you know that, and all the things that I experience and feel. If I can't know what's going on myself, at least on some level, yeah, and I can't express it to will, then I'm definitely not going to feel close to him.

No. And I know the fantasy is that somebody will just know us totally but, I mean, Mark has also said he was like, you know, you're so responsive that it it's not as hard as it's been in the past with women to know, like, Oh, that felt good for you. Or that's not feeling quite right, you know, it was like, but a lot of he said, a lot of women he's been with, like, aren't that responsive? Or, you know, we have a lot of shame, I think, around expressing ourselves, and so then if we keep it quiet, hoping that someone's gonna just know how we want to be touched and cared for, just to set up for disaster, totally disappointment. Let's say maybe not disaster, but heartache.

Heartache pain, yeah. Maybe resentments.

Totally resentments.

We can just take a quick pause. Okay, Shayna, I'm loving this conversation, and one thing that I've been wanting to ask you here specifically because I've never asked you this question, ooh, fun is, why are you so committed and dedicated and interested and passionate about supporting relationship and healthy relationship and thriving relationships and intimacy like tell me about was there something in your own life or world that felt like, oh, shit, there's something else possible here. Or tell me a little bit about that.

Yeah. Well, you know how your historical pain can catapult you so growing up in my house with my parents, my mom is, and still is really mean and nasty to my dad. She's an incredibly loving person in other ways, but very judgmental, very bitter, very you know, one of the things, and I think this comes from that, one of the things I say to women often is, if you can see the best in a man and call him into that, he's way more likely to step into that than if you're cutting off his balls or cutting him down, which is what my mom does, so painful to watch that it's so painful to watch. And then I see my dad has become kind of like a ghost. He he's, you know, successful businessman, whatever, but he acts like a child, and he's whatever their dynamic. I was always like, I'm not, probably not getting married, because I'm not doing that. If that's what love looks like, I'm not doing that. And then I got married when I was, I think it was just about 30, and I felt like I'd been I did a master's in psychology. I was doing these relationship courses, and I was actually coaching at that point already, and then realized how much wounding was still pain and history was still running me.

Rght after you got married, you were starting to notice this more.

Yeah. I was, I was, I mean, I was noticing it as we were not married, but then as we got married, something happened, and then becoming parents together, it was like it really just stirred up a lot of old history where I realized I was emotionally volatile. I guess I would say, like I was never a mean, attacking, shaming, blaming, but it was more like I would get so emotional or something, I would be hurt by something he said, and then he wouldn't feel heard, because my emotions would get so loud.

Oh that's such a good one to identify there. Wow, yeah.

And I would go into like, Well, I would maybe this isn't working, and maybe we should just end this, and maybe we shouldn't do it. And that, you know, broke a ton of trust and foundation totally. So yeah, from a young age, watching my parents, I thought, I'm gonna do it different. I'm gonna do it better. I'm gonna I'm gonna make this work. This is I can't. My heart hurt so much being in that, and it hurts still watching them, and it was like, There's got to be another way.

Yeah, do they know that your work and that you use them as a model for what you don't want?

I think, I mean, when I was writing my book, I was trying to figure out, how do I not throw them under the bus, but also acknowledge and I have an example in there. I think. Of how they fight about things like taking out the garbage, but in reality, I see them each not feeling understood, not feeling supported, not feeling valued for their contributions.

Ooh, so painful.

And so I really started to feel like, you know, any time I got into a fight in my marriage, what really would have helped is if I was able to, and sometimes it felt terrifying, but to be vulnerable about what was going on under the surface, instead of the surface complaint or the surface attack, or you're doing this or so, yeah. I mean, I guess that ties in with why I'm so passionate about it. I think because coming from such closed hearted relating and seeing that they're, you know, they're good people, they just never learned any of how to be connected or intimate or ask for what they needed or wanted or and then going through a divorce myself was the extra boost of like, all right, I really got to figure this out, right?

And so you just really followed what you were seeing. Was super meaningful for you in your life to have, yeah, and partially because you saw your parents do something very different. You're reminding me when you were talking, I was having a flashback back to the authentic women's experience that we referred to at the very beginning of this podcast episode, where I took a training of yours, and I remember part of the training, this was the edgy part, which was so fun. I mean, there were so many edgy parts, but one of them was that you had this men's team come in, and there was chocolate and whipped cream and strawberries. And we really, as the participants, really needed to practice using the men to really ask for what we wanted in, like a just a really direct, vulnerable, truthful way.

Right - how you wanted to be fed? I haven't thought about that in so long.

That was really fun. I had, I had a very lovely gentleman, Garret, I remember his, you know, Garrett, yeah, and it was awesome. And it just, it's like, I wish you know, hearing your experience as a young girl. I think that so many of us can just have the map of our parents as the way as this is the way it is, and we follow that map. And what I love about the work that you do and have done for so many years is just is breaking the mold of these maps that we have Yes, and being able to train ourselves to do something different, to see possibility. And yeah, I'm just really grateful for that experience and for our continued relationship.

Yes, and it's not easy when you realize that you're off the map, right? I mean, now I think in the past decade or two, there are many more books about being conscious, being an adult, in relationship, being attachment styles and love languages and all these things, which I highly, highly recommend. You know, if you can inform yourself about the foundations, and why are we reacting to each other this way, and with compassion, not with judgment, but how was I trained? And totally, yeah, I talk about in my book, you're not who you think you are, and neither is your partner. Because there's, there's a way that we hold each other right, like you're this, and we have all these stories and and then I often saw this is also back to the authentic woman experience, where I remember Alexis and I talked about this, it's like two people could say the exact same thing, and the person receiving it would have a totally different response, right? Some of us are triggered by being ignored. Some of us are triggered by being told what to do. Some of us are triggered by being you know, you're being too soft, or you're being too hard, or you're being whatever it is, and to recognize, like, Oh, these are my triggers. It's not that this person is doing something wrong. Like, how do I take it out of right and wrong and really speak to actually, I went on a trip recently with my ex husband, my new partner, my kid, and a couple other friends, amazing. And my ex and I were, at this one point in a hike, we were talking and we were just reflecting on how much we've grown. And you know that way where it's like, oh, right, it's really talking about the impact, or this is, this is what it's like for me, not that you're wrong over there, but I need something else in this moment, or I would like something else in this moment, or this is where I'm feeling left behind, or I'm feeling misunderstood, or all these things. But how do we do that with each other? To me, that's intimacy, is being honest in a way that is going to try to create connection, as opposed to just vicious honesty or dumping, blaming.

Yeah, or the opposite of totally shutting down exactly yeah. I'm so glad that you brought this up, because when I was thinking about in. Intimacy. Preparing for this call, for this episode, I was thinking about how one way that will, and I get to intimacy is through actually addressing the impacts. And you know, we talk a lot about that, but, you know, it's not just to make our relationship stronger to address those, but it's also creates so much intimacy when we're willing to take those risks in a way that you're talking the way that you're talking about it, no. And if we weren't doing that, it's like, oh my gosh, if we weren't addressing the pouches, the big things, the little things, I would be like feeling so disconnected.

I know from him, and it happens, right? We like you, and I think we can notice, oh, there's disconnection. How do we get back into connection? I think of, do you remember? Was it Shel Silverstein, the Sarah Cynthia silverstout, never took the garbage out, or I remember the author, but I don't remember that there's this poem, and in the book there's this picture of a rug. At least how I remember it is like there was a rug and like all the garbage was piled up and and that's what it feels like to me. If we're not clearing out, we're kind of shoving the garbage under the rug in the living room, right? Eventually it just becomes this really stinky place to be stinky. Don't feel seen or understood, and then it's so easy to be like you're being a jerk, or you don't ever understand me. That's one thing too. I really highly suggest with people, is addressing the moment that's happening. Instead of taking, I used to do this, taking it back into like, you always, or you never. This is something that you do all the time, like, nope, right here, right now. This is what's happening. This is the impact it's having on me, or this is how I'm feeling, can we try this? I mean, it takes a lot of emotional regulation and capacity to regulate our own nervous systems and soothe ourselves at times, and to be able to totally pause instead of react.

Yeah, sometimes will. And I say, we have to who's going to be the adult in the room right now to be able to lead us into that if we're both highly triggered. Okay, so I want to ask you, Shayna, like, I love everything you're bringing. And you know, for the people who, and I've had this in past relationships, yeah, who don't have a partner who's willing to have a growth mindset or be able to take responsibility for impact, or even have enough self awareness to realize that they're having impact or that they're defended anyway. How would you suggest maybe I'll break it down to somebody who's like, okay, yeah, that'd be so nice to be able to address ruptures and impacts with my partner, but they always get super defensive.

So I would say on one level, if you feel like you're being, you know, verbally abused, or gas lit, or any of that. It's a different story. And I would, I would look for a professional to help, or I would choose out of that relationship. But if it's someone who you're like, This person is so well intended. You know, maybe we have a family. They're great with the kids. We love each other, we're friends, but, like, we just have these recurring cycles where I just don't feel seen, understood, all of that. I like to suggest that people have a conversation kind of go meta, if that makes sense, right? Like, go higher level. To be like, Hey, I notice that when we start to talk about things that feel, you know, relational or connected or based on one of our hurt or my hurt, or how what I'm wanting more of you don't seem to want to go there at all. Like, can you tell me more about that? Or would you be willing to try this with me. I think oftentimes we as women give up and we settle and we think, like, I guess that's all I get. I guess that's all he's capable of. And actually, one of my friends has said to me, she's like she said the other day, and I don't want to sound arrogant, this is how she said it. She was like, 100 different women could have dated the man you're dating right now and he wouldn't have become the same person he is right now. And what I heard in that was, you know, there's a way that I really I celebrate who he is, and I encourage him to be more of himself. And, you know, as weird as he wants to be, as powerful as he wants to be, as soft and tender as he wants to be. And I think we as women tend to not learn how to be with a man's vulnerability, and we think that makes him weak. He's not going to be here for me. He's not going to be my rock. So therefore, like, you know, we want it, and yet sometimes we shut it down. Is one part. I think, if we aren't feeling like we can set boundaries or say yes or no or what we want or like or don't like in the bedroom, we don't encourage a man's power or strength or, you know, verbality or however you want to say it, and then we can also get upset that they're not as. Powerful as we want them to be. To me, it's empowering that as women, we can actually speak up, and especially as we're getting older and we're tired of putting up with bullshit, or, you know, whatever it's like, but we don't have to do it in a way that's FUCK THIS BULLSHIT. We can do it in a way. It's like, Hey, I notice I'm really wanting some things, you know, and I want it. I want it with you. Ultimately, I want to do this with you, right? It's like, what's that tender, empowered place we can ask from, instead of complaining or bitching or just giving up? Yeah, I don't know if I answered your question, though.

Well, I don't remember what it was…now I remember, okay, so yeah, it was really about like, if I don't have a growth minded partner, yes, who's Matt, who's who's matching with me at that point. But what I really love is you going more contextualizing the what's happening, and bringing conversation to that, versus, like, just continually getting frustrated that they're not getting something that that something that they want from their partner.

Exactly, that we can ask for what we want. And my sense, when I work with people who are struggling in relationships is like, be as open, inspiring, vulnerable, do it in a way where you know you've given your all, and it's not because of you that someone's not stepping up or stepping in. If that makes sense, it's like, Don't go in there and have a temper tantrum and then be like, I'm not getting what I want my relationship and he's the one to blame. I don't want anyone to blame anybody. But do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, go all in and see if I open my heart and I ask for what I want and need, whatever your gender, can we start to make some progress toward it? And if so, if somebody's willing, then we can build on that, right? And if somebody's not willing, it's really hard to create the relationship you want together,

So well said. I love that. It's like, really about taking responsibility as part of that. Yeah, now something that I struggle with, without it being like, having to have it be so much work where I have to pause and really think about it, like, there's something that happens for me that I noticed once in a while, where I'm like, I just want to be really straight, and so I'm just super straight with will, and I love getting to be straight and not feel misunderstood or not having a negative impact. Of course, that's not always the case. Sometimes I am misunderstood, I have negative impact. But for those moments, I don't want to take too much responsibility for how he's impacted, but I want to take responsibility for how he's impacted, right? And I want to be able to be, like, really free in the moment. So basically, the way I hold it is, like, Okay, if I say something that has negative impact, I will definitely clean it up. But I'm actually really also looking for this balance. And I don't know if you have any thoughts about this, about it's like, straight, it's also neutral, it's not activated attacking, yeah, it's not attacking, but it's just like, I'd love to cuddle with you tonight, but I'm not interested in having sex or having physical intimacy. Yeah, and you know, if it's like, if it's delivered that straight, it he didn't even say, like, well, I want to have physical intimacy, but I'm like, already on the defense, because I'm like, super tired or whatever. The thing is, how do you navigate that kind of Mill Road of, yeah, give the woman the permission to be vulnerable and say what's true for her and also what she wants,

and that it might have an impact, right? I mean, I love context, so I think it's really helpful, because the way I see it, we're always inside of a context. But oftentimes, if we're two different people, we're inside of two different contexts. And usually it's not explicit, it's implicit. So like, I'm in a context of, oh man, whenever we start to kiss, it snowballs, and then he wants sex, or she wants sex, and the other person could be in the context of, you know, just whatever it is, something different. So I love what you're saying, which is, like, I want people to have permission to be straight and honest. And I think the context of, hey, there's something I'm wanting. And you know, part of me is afraid it's gonna hurt your feelings, but another part of me really wants to honor myself. Can I just say this straight, something like that can be really helpful, right? Where we give the intention, right? Or I really want to be close to you, and I would love to snuggle, or I'd love to cuddle, and I'm not feeling sexual. Can we just create a night where that's all we're going to do? And actually, I love that I love again. I don't know if you or whoever's listening is gonna feel the same, but there's something so freeing to me, especially if I'm not feeling turned on, to create a container where it's like, I know it's only gonna go so far. Actually, often ends up really turning me on, because I don't have to push or. Resist or be afraid, like this is going to happen. And there's something delightful, I would say, if you listening, have never experienced that. Try it like, create a night where there there are boundaries around this is as far as we're going to go, or this is what we're going to do. And you know, we're whether it's not having intercourse or not having genital touching, or, I don't know anything, it's like, it's so amazing to see what happens when you're not in you're not fighting the invisible thing that you think is coming at you.

I love this, yeah, and you can relax.

How would you invite Mark into that context?

I would say... I'm feeling a desire to be close to you, or want to be close to you. And right now, I'm not necessarily feeling turned on in a sexual way. Can we have an evening where we just cuddle and snuggle, and how would it be for you to not make it? I was going to say sexual, but in my book, I expand the definition of sex that, you know, could be energetic sex, it could be so, right? So I usually get clear, like it wouldn't be intercourse, or wouldn't be genital it would just be, you know, and then kind of going back to those seven dates, right? That could be a date where someone says, I want to do this inside this container, and then say he wants to have a date where he's like, I really do want it to be about sex again. There has to be consent. Because that was one of my fears too. Was like, Well, if he says he really wants this, but then what if I don't want it in that moment? And we agreed, like, Okay, if one person doesn't want it, we're not going to force anything. You know, maybe we reschedule, or maybe we just see what's what is arising spontaneously in this moment. And we can always say this is what it is, what it is, and we're going to do a do over of that.

Okay, So you would do the whole night over?

We've, we've put that option out there, like, well, let's just try it and see. And if it doesn't feel like what we want it to feel like, or whoever's night it is doesn't feel like they got what they needed, then let's do it again. That takes the pressure off. Anytime there's pressure, it's, yeah, it kills our intimacy and our turn on, I think, absolutely,

Even our ability to be present, because we're anticipating something that might not feel good,

Right. And that is, I think it's Emily nagoski, or maybe many people talk about, you know, our brains being our biggest sex organ. It's amazing how much of an impact that has the thoughts about what might happen and am I going to be okay, or, I don't know for you, I've had part of my perimenopause journey was pain during sex, and then as I was balancing my hormones and things started feeling good, but there was still this tentativeness of like my body was tense because it was like, it doesn't hurt right now, but it might hurt in 10 minutes totally, and having to work with that together right to be like, Okay, what could I relax into right now? What actually, how slow do we need to take it? Because, you know, maybe we need to go a lot slower, or maybe we need to put some different boundaries up or not. Boundaries like limits, right? We're only going to go here, and then we're going to see how your body does, and if tomorrow your body's still feeling okay, yeah, then we'll try moving something forward, little experiments here and there.

I love this conversation. There's so many directions I could go, but I before we do go, you were just really caught my ear around your definition of sex or sexual. Tell me more about if you be willing to tell me more about how you hold sex.

I hold sex as and it could be you can have sex with yourself too. So when it's partnered sex, that it's two people coming together to create pleasure and connection and intimacy in as many ways as you possibly can. So I talk about one dimensional sex, which is just the physical, and sort of more like fast food sex, and then four dimensional sex, which is more gourmet, which is like, Okay, we've got the physical, we've got the emotional, we've got the energetic, we've also got the I'm feeling you, you're feeling me. I'm feeling you, feeling me. We've got, like, this cycle, right? There's a spiritual component. And so I really, I like, expanding what sex is, so that people don't think, because there's so much of like, you know, I gotta get to home base. I got to I got to get to intercourse. I've got to get to an orgasm. So much…

Agenda.

Yes agenda. when you go from agenda based to pleasure based, you know, how do we enjoy this moment and how do we be with what is spontaneously arising? Sometimes it is energetic, sometimes it's emotional. I've had emotional orgasms. Or, you know, Susan Bratton is a woman who works a lot with men and sex, and she talks about the 14 different kinds of orgasms that we can have. So there's just so much more than people usually are taught. And the reason why it makes me happy to talk about. Is because I think the wider the definition, the more we feel like we've gotten there, we've had the pleasure, versus, oh well, yeah, like I'm, I'm, you know, I kissed or I made out, but it wasn't the whole thing, right? That's how it was when I was little. I only got to second base, or…

I just gotta go here quickly…Emotional orgasm. You're talking about, not a physical orgasm.

Well for me, when it happened, I mean, there are a couple of times where it's happened, where there's one time it happened actually through genital sex, but then the energy, like, moved up into my heart, and then it was like this heart bursting, you know, energy and tears and all kinds of things. And there have been times where just energetically connecting with each other, and then it's almost like a heart orgasm. You know, energy opening in the heart. So you can label it, you know, maybe some people would be like, well, that's not an orgasm, but I don't know. However we want to describe it, like orgasm, to me, tends to be like, there's a lot of energy that moves or awakens or expands, explodes, whatever you want to call it like, and in these different centers.

Oh, that's so interesting. I love that. And one of the weird ways that, one of the weird things, weird, quote, unquote, that happens for me, is more of like, a like, vision of future.

So beautiful.

Is that my sixth or seventh chakra? Yeah,

it is. Yes, opening, right? Like, as the energy moves through and as the presence consciousness, then that gets to open as well.

Amazing. I've never, I've always, like, been talking about it as kind of a strange thing.

Now I want to interview you so you can then you can share all the amazing things that happen for you too.

I'd love to share more and keep collaborating with you here. Shayna, it's so fun. I'm so grateful for you and my life and continue to be and for all the beautiful work that you're doing in the world and with people. And I would love for you to share too, where people can find you and how to get a hold of you if they want to learn more before we close.

Yes. So there are a couple different ways. If you go to www.ShanaJamesCoaching.com/quiz

there's a quiz, what keeps you from having the best love and sex of your life after 40. Oh, I love that. If you're not over 40, it's okay too. But you know, I tend to work with people who are a little older, because now I'm a little older, but it all applies. Yeah. And you can also get a free copy of my book on a sex virtual copy if you go to www.ShanaJamesCoaching.com/free And either way, we'll guide you into being able to chat with me if you have a struggle or something that you're wanting more of.

That sounds great. And I love that title, honest to sex. There's just so much in that title for me. So I love it so much, and I I love you, and thank you so much. And all these links will be in the show notes, so those of you who are listening, you can just go and take a quick click and otherwise awesome. Yeah. Thank you everybody for listening. If you have any feedback or comments or questions, anything that comes up for you, please, you know, leave us comments area of the review section on your favorite podcast platform, or feel free to reach out to either of us, and there'll be more more in the future. I can feel it.

Me too. Thank you. Thank you, Shayna. Have a great day. Bye.