We cover a LOT in this one! Including: Creating a Safe Space for Sexual Conversations, Navigating Sensitive Sexual Conversations, Tips for Talking About Sex, Addressing Suppressed Desires and Fantasies, Getting Stuck in Sexual Routines, The Role of Sexuality in Relationships, Stages of Sexual Development, and more. Fostering an environment of trust and security using relationship agreements so partners can work through vulnerable topics without fear of disconnection.

“The Art Of We” podcast with Krista Van Derveer and Dr. Will Van Derveer.

(00:00) - Creating safety and security in relationships

(01:56) - Addressing fears stemming from “how do I talk to my partner about sex?”

(02:36) - Handling feelings of being less attracted or desiring more intimacy

(04:53) - Keys to prevent conflict escalation

(06:42) - Our relationship agreement that supports us to stay in difficult conversations

(11:53) - Stages of sexual development and self-awareness

(15:00) - Receiving sexual feedback from a partner without defensiveness

(17:51) - Framing requests for change in intimacy with positivity

(19:49) - Discussing vulnerable sexual fantasies with a partner

(22:41) - Getting stuck in sexual ruts or routines

(33:11) - Using relationship agreements to foster secure functioning in partnerships

Reach out with your thoughts, experiences, and topics you want to hear about. We love hearing from our listeners!

Resources Mentioned: 

• Our Top 10 Relationship Agreements 
• E92: Same Argument Over & Over? Here’s What To Do

Get in Touch: 

• The Art Of We Website
• The Art of We Instagram 
• Integrative Psychiatry Institute: Psychedelic Therapy Training

Rate, Review & Follow on Apple Podcasts: 

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Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or on your favorite podcast platform.

Krista Van Derveer 0:00

The purpose of secure functioning, which is really creating enough safety and security inside of the partnership so that there's room for all different parts. There's room for all different expressions. There's ways that we can talk about all these things and hold them together. But if that initial base of safety and security and trust isn't strong in there, than anything, no matter whether it's sexuality or it's household chores or puppies, kids, whatever it is, is going to be a lot harder to talk about and a lot harder to work as a team together.

Welcome to the Art of We podcast. We are very excited to get into this juicy topic today, but first, we want to say thank you so so so much to the people who have left us reviews. I can't tell you how meaningful it is to us when we find a new review. Usually, what's happening is I'm looking through the different podcast stuff and statistics and comments, and I find a new one, and I copy and paste it and text over will, and I'm just like having dancing emojis and just celebrating, celebrating your words. So thank you. It's so deeply meaningful to us, and I can't tell you how delighted it makes us feel. Thank you. So today's episode, we've gotten a couple people asking for us to talk about how to talk to your partner about sex. We don't have a lot more context than that. So obviously, the curiosity for exploration on this topic is coming from a place of probably “I'm challenged in having a conversation with my partner about sex.” So it's probably like something that they're not liking, or levels of frequency or different kinds of touch that doesn't feel good, I would imagine like, what would you think Will might be inside of that broad topic?

Dr. Will Van Derveer 1:56

Maybe there's something that you've always wanted to try that you're scared to bring up because you think it might create a rupture or some uncomfortable feelings,

Krista Van Derveer 2:06

That's a good one.

Dr. Will Van Derveer 2:07

I think it's a bit of a minefield around self worth and identity. There can be fear about what does it mean that we're having challenges, or that I can't talk about it, or I want something I've never talked to my partner about, or, right?

Krista Van Derveer 2:22

Or even maybe I'm not super turned on, or I don't really want to have sex with you, or I want to have more sex with you, right?

Dr. Will Van Derveer 2:31

I don't feel as attracted to you anymore as I used to, and so on.

Krista Van Derveer 2:36

I just want to say it's a tender and vulnerable topic, and it can be very charged, and people can get defensive really quickly, and it can be a hard conversation to navigate. So I'm grateful that we're talking about this same here. How do you think you and I do with our conversations about sex, which we happen to have one just this morning, by chance.

Dr. Will Van Derveer 3:00

I think we do great. I feel like we have a really open dialog and conversation. And, you know, like you said, we talked, we had a I brought it up this morning that I wanted to talk about some things that were happening, and you were really receptive and open to it. So, you know, maybe we could start by talking about how to talk about charge topics in general, and then maybe we can also talk specifically about maybe what sex topics often bring up, or specific tools. I guess we could start the conversation by talking about how we enter into potentially challenging conversations with each other.

Krista Van Derveer 3:39

Well, we had some really good advice from our couple's therapist, and we put it into play this morning. We had a lot going on today. Basically what she was suggesting to us is she was specifically speaking to me, because once in a while when Will says something, something happens for me, and I have a big reaction. Is that fair to say?

Dr. Will Van Derveer 4:08

The Spice Girl comes out? Yes.

Krista Van Derveer 4:11

And so we had an opportunity this morning when we're talking about scheduling and schedules and stuff like that, and will said something that had me get very reactive, and what her advice was, and I think that this can be helpful in any kind of charged conversation, which is why we're bringing it to this conversation, is to own and claim before I respond, to say anything, to say, Oh, I'm noticing I'm having a reaction, or I'm noticing I'm getting reactive, or something, that there's self awareness, that there is a response happening in my system, and I'm letting you know that that's happening, versus just coming back at you quickly with some sort of quick response.

Dr. Will Van Derveer 4:53

Well, my memory of that session with our couple therapists is that she asked me what I would want. For you to do that would help me stay open to the process, and that's what I told her I would want or need from you. And regardless of the attribution of of credit, I I commend you for how quickly you are able to put into play things that we discover in those sessions is really incredible how, I guess I would just say, coachable you you are, and how willing you are to to grow and try new things and not everything that we knew that we try works, you know, but I'm just really grateful to have a partner and wife who is so willing to give it a try. Yeah, thanks. So thank you, and that that really did help me this morning, that you know, you were clearly having a big reaction, but you were aware that you were having a reaction, and that that shifts something big for me.

Krista Van Derveer 5:55

Well, thanks for all that, and I'm glad that it you know, I felt like we were able to reduce the minutes and possibly hours of conflict that we would have been in had I just reacted from my reaction, versus naming what was happening for me. So maybe to the person who's listening about how to talk about sex with your partner. One basic step is, if it's a charged topic for the two of you or a challenging topic for the two of you, is to understand before you have the conversation. What does each person need if they notice that they're getting reactive in some form, like defensive, angry, triggered and to really go slow enough so you can tend to what's happening with that, versus just then going into something that that doesn't feel good and it's harder to get yourselves through.

Dr. Will Van Derveer 6:42

Right. Or maybe you know about yourself that you need to take a minute or two to cool off before you respond to something that was said that you had a big reaction to. So a big practice that we have is staying in the conversation. So that would take the form of say, for example, Hey, I'm right here. I'm gonna just keep being with myself for a couple minutes, and then I'll come back to what we're talking about, which is really helpful, because, you know, oftentimes people who don't have very sophisticated relationship tools will just blow out, get angry, storm off and leave, and then not through any ill will or any negative intent, but often will not pick up the threat and not finish the conversation. And this might sound like 101, to a lot of people out there, but it's crucial to have the trust with each other that you will move through things and put things behind you. There's nothing more frustrating. We just did an episode on this recently of like, what if you keep having the difficult the same thing over and over and over again? It's really frustrating.

Krista Van Derveer 7:50

Well, and to your point, so today, we did have this rupture happen, and it is actually. It was very sensitive. It's a sensitive topic, clearly, and when we have the agreement of staying in the conversation, that's one of our relationship agreements, it doesn't mean that it has to be one continuous conversation, but like, for example, today, which is kind of an unusual for me, but I noticed that I needed to actually take a few hours, and I'm so glad that I did, because as I'm taking those hours, I'm processing what's happening for me, and I was able to come back into a conversation with you more level headed, and owning more of my part and all those different things that we really practice doing. So stay in the conversation doesn't even have to be the same day, but it could be like, Hey, let's meet tonight. Let's meet tomorrow morning to complete this, but it's, it's not letting it go just to clarify, right?

Dr. Will Van Derveer 8:43

It's having an explicit conversation about when you're going to come back to it.

Krista Van Derveer 8:47

So step one, really understanding your partner and what they need, and understanding yourself and what you need inside of any kind of sensitive or challenging conversation. That's a good one. Now, before we go to more steps. I feel like I just want to get your world a little bit about, whether it's our relationship historically or other relationships that you've had. What has been the landscape around talking about sex? Has it been like taboo? Has it been it's not talked about? Has it been it's always talked about, and we're able to work our way through things. I'm just curious what you've experienced.

Dr. Will Van Derveer 9:24

I think for the most part, my relationships have been pretty open in terms of talking about sexuality and what, what me and my partner want, what they like, how often they like to have that kind of intimacy, what they've experienced in the past, what their preferences are and so on. So I think it's been relatively easy to talk about for the most part.

Krista Van Derveer 9:49

Do you feel like you've been able to really stand for what you've wanted, or even maybe even know what you've wanted? Like I feel like sometimes with such a very. Vulnerable, intimate topic. Sometimes we might be in denial about the things we want because it might be really hard to ask for, or the things we don't want because we might hurt our partners feelings, or something like that. So I'm just curious. Like, and I know that you're not speaking for all people that are male, but I'm just curious, as my male partner, like, how do you relate to that?

Well, I think it's an ongoing, you know, learning over the course of a lifetime. I don't claim to have it all figured out, but I think definitely, as a man, I feel like there's a and maybe this is true for women too, but I think it's particularly relevant to men. I experience a kind of a strong polarity between focusing on my own personal pleasure versus being focused on my partner's pleasure, or something like that, where there's this kind of concern about not wanting to be selfish in the bedroom or solely focused on my own personal pleasure, but in the physical animal level. And there's other levels of sexuality, of course, but there's a rather selfish component to the pursuit of pleasure, I would say. So that's something that I've just been noticing and been aware of for, you know, some decades as an adult, but it's an interesting dichotomy as a man, because you have with a P That's hard, you can hurt people with it. And I think it's not unheard of for men to get injured having sex with women, but it is less common, I think, than the other way around.

Yeah, thanks for sharing all that.

How would you answer the question? When you start wondering about whether there are suppressed desires or even knowing what you want, I start wondering if you're talking about yourself over there.

I guess the best way to answer that is just looking back over my history, and I've just turned 50, and as I look back, I'm really able to recognize and see in my different stages of my lifetime, there were also different like stages of sexuality, I think, and different partners, obviously, that had different flavors of intimacy, sexuality, connection, disconnection. And as I'm looking back, I'm just realizing that there was a lot less conversation about what was happening, what was needed, what felt good to the partners, what didn't feel good to the partners. It was more this, like, kind of weird. We should all know what we're doing and how each other feels. And there was a lot less self awareness than there is in our partnership, and that evolved over time, obviously to where it is today. So it's kind of like a hard question for me to answer, because I feel like at least back then, I was playing something out more than anything, like playing out who I thought I should be sexually, it felt harder to approach conversations back then.

What was the benefit of playing out – you trying to be a certain way sexually? What was the upside for you, or what was the kind of unconscious goal or desire there?

I think it's safe to say that the unconscious goal was to make sure that the person I was with really enjoyed being with me, and by that that would create some level of security for me in relationship with them, obviously false security, you know, but like, I had some sort of false security that we were going To be okay if that part of our lives was robust, abundant, they got what they needed. And I know everybody's not like me, for sure. I know that people listening to this might be like, What the heck was she doing? I think it was a kind of a cultural piece playing out there too.

I do think that is really common. I mean, I can relate personally to, you know, kind of tailoring my sexual behaviors to what I thought the other person, you know, would give the other person as much pleasure as possible, mostly because I wanted to make sure that that wouldn't be the reason why our relationship didn't work out. Maybe there would be other reasons, but not because of that. I think there's a lot of, I don't know, I can't speak for all men, but I know there's a huge amount of, I mean, just look at the industry of sexual performance. And, you know, Viagra, and like all these different things, pumps and devices and things that people buy, there's a huge amount of concern and interest in sexual performance, and some of it is because I want to have the pleasure of being able to have an erection or whatever. But I think there's also this massive issue around pride and shame, right, the fear that I can't, quote, unquote, satisfy my partner.

Right, which is very relevant to this conversation. Like, if I came to you with a request about something, let's say I'm having an experience where you were doing something, let's say habitually, that I actually didn't enjoy or it didn't feel good, but I never said anything in the first place, or over time, it got to be not quite what my body needed. What is it like to receive? Whether it's done really skillfully or not, I think is another question. But what is it like to receive? Hey, like, I'm really wanting something different here than what you're doing. Is it hard to receive that communication?

I think so. I think it’s delicate.

What would it kick up, potentially?

Well, it's what we're just talking about. I think there's a threat, potentially there's a could be a threat response around, oh my gosh, like, I'm How long has this been going on? Or has Krista van derveer If another partner would be a better fit for her and not talking about it with me? Or the longer things go unsaid, the more dangerous they become to the foundation of the relationship, of course, right?

Or even to the person who's receiving it. Like, if you had a request from me, like that thing that you do all the time, like, I haven't really liked that for a couple years.

Oh, man, we're laughing about it, but it's really sad to even imagine that,

yeah, like, I think that I would be, I would actually, this is good. I think this is really good that we're talking about this. Because I if that happened and you were saying that to me, like, Hey, I haven't like that for a couple years, I would feel shame of not doing it right. I would feel lack of trust. It's like betrayal feels like a really strong word for this, but it'd be like, Well, wait a minute. So you've been letting me operate this way for two years, and it hasn't felt good to you, and you've known that the whole time, I would feel lack of trust.

Yeah, what else are you withholding for me?

Yeah, what else are you withholding? I would feel scared to go into more sexual interactions with you, because I'd be like, I don't know if he's telling the truth or if we're actually, like, right talking about things here. So yeah, it would kick up a lot for me. So I think the how to talk to a partner about sex is really about masterful communication, and it's really about, as we said in the beginning, knowing your partner what they need and what you need when trigger comes up. But also I feel like leading with positivity. And I'm not saying doing the sandwich of acknowledgement, or you acknowledge them and then you tell them what you need to be different and acknowledge them. I'm not talking about that, but I'm talking about me saying something to you, like, Will I really deeply? I mean, obviously it has to be truthful, deeply, appreciate and love our intimacy together, like set the set the context, so your partner can walk into it feeling safe and secure, right, and understanding how important it is to you. I think that's that's a really important move.

I agree, addressing the threat before it even exists is a pro move.

And then if I were needing to have that conversation, I would say something to the effect of, like, Listen, I'm not going to go into the conversation of the two year thing, because that hasn't happened to us, and that's not true. But I think that if I did have a request for you, I would own my experience, rather than put it on you. Like, I'm starting to notice that when we start to do this thing, fill in the blank. I'm getting into my head, or I'm not feeling open and relaxed, or whatever the actual truth is for you, and I'm wondering if we can do some experiments to figure out how I can actually receive more of what you're bringing for me feel more open and relaxed, so we can have a different experience together. Are you open to that?

I love that way of starting the conversation, it's pretty hard, as I try that on and listen and imagine responding to that be pretty hard to bring defensiveness or fear into that, which goes back to the comment on the walk of you know, I'm noticing myself having a reaction like self responsibility, I think is pretty disarming for me anyway, that when I received that, it's very disarming for me, because it says to me that your amygdala is not driving, not running your vocal cords right now. And it's scary to me when, you know, for me too, like I scare myself later, when I think back about some of the things I said to you and my amygdala was running my vocal cords is not, not pretty.

Right, I have a list of all those things on my phone so we can address them someday. I'm just kidding. Nice. Okay, well, what about if somebody wanted to try something new that felt vulnerable? Like, Hey, I've had this fantasy situation for a long time, right? But they're not sure if their partner would be open to it. They think they might be offended by it. I'm curious if you want to take a step at that one. Well,

I think that the invitation to support a fantasy or to fulfill a fantasy together can be really amazing if it's framed as an inclusive thing, like, I want you to be in the whatever Joker and Batman fantasy that I'm having, and it feels a little more threatening for me if the fantasy that's, you know, being talked about and kind of like the actions that are being proposed or not don't include me. In other words, like, for example, it would be different if you said to me, Hey, I've always wanted to have sex with a woman, and I have never done that. And I feel like, you know, after all these years, it's really time for me to be true to myself, and I love you, and I'm committed to you, and I want to have that experience like that would be a little more challenging for me, as opposed to, you know, we're doing something together.

Well, what if you were in the room?

I know there are guys who get off on watching their partner have sex with another person, but that's not part of my makeup?

I think that's the other part of this. Is like really knowing what, obviously, what you're stepping into with your partner. How are they made up? And if you have a fantasy or desire that doesn't fit inside of their makeup, or it feels threatening to the makeup, I mean, that's a big conversation, they may not want to have that happen, and they may not be aligned with that, and that might mean something else. I mean, if, if you're not willing to give up that fantasy, it might mean something else for your relationship. So it kind of depends on, I guess, what level of fantasy we're talking about here, like you're saying, and how does your partner relate to that kind of invitation?

Definitely. I mean, tell me if you agree with this. But I think sexuality can be a big part of what becomes routine. And for couples in long term relationship, it's like you you kind of get a sense of what they like and dislike, or, you know, how they have an orgasm or whatever. And then there can be a kind of gradual slippage into the rut of, okay, well, let's just do what we both know is gonna cause an orgasm for us and move on and go back to our television program or whatever the thing is we're doing. And there can be, over time, an erosion of joy and exploration, and it's like we've our default mode. Network has claimed our sexuality, and it's just like, over and over and over again, like the same same routine, same routine, same routine. And there's security in that sort of because it's like, okay, I know we know how to do that, how to do that with each other, but as you and I have been talking about recently, there's a staleness that comes from just focusing on how to get to the end point, rather than just exploring one another's sensuality and sexuality and our bodies and how we feel pleasure, and not kind of filing sexuality in the in the file of like, okay, well, you know, I paid my credit card, and now I'm gonna go have sex with my partner, and then I'm gonna go balance my checkbook or whatever, you know, like, yeah, these banal tasks of life,

yeah, I think that, you know. And looking back at my ginormous sexual history with so many people…

many people at the same time over many years

…the different stages I've been in. I'm an expert now (sarcastic). Yeah, no, I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm joking about that, but I but referring back to my, my own evolution in my sexual life, which isn't, doesn't need to be, like, gonna be else's. But as I'm hearing you talk about the routines, routines when I was in, my sexual routines when I was in, let's say, my 20s and 30s, I didn't actually have sex until college.

Me too.

I was a good girl. I'm kidding that I was a good girl. I'm not putting labels on anybody here. But back then, when things became routine, they were what you were talking about for me. But as I started to really develop and be able to make contact, like not just kind of get into our heads about what's happening and kind of be in an i space about that, but really learn how to cultivate a we space, meaning basically, we're connected to each other. We're communicating. We're connected. We're using the skills we have of attunement and sensitivity to notice changes or reactions or what's going on. I feel like particular routines can actually deepen, like particular things that we do together can become a place where we can deepen together, rather than back in the day routines, when it's like what you're talking about, where we're actually not really connected. We're just feeling our bodies and maybe trying to go for goals and get someplace. I think that there's an important distinction there.

I totally agree. It's a great point about routines. And I think it, for me, it brings up this, this point that you're making about the two different versions of routine, brings up the, what are we up to in bed anyway? Like, what? What is the purpose of sexuality in our relationship?

Amazing question love that.

I mean, why? Why have sex at all? And so I think that's a really juicy question for the person who brought us this wonderful question, a typical psychiatrist returning a question with a question, but what? What is the role of sexuality in your relationship? Is it about? Yeah, relieving tension and having an orgasm? Only nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with sexual release tension.

That might be part of it.

It could be part of it for us, it's a part of our sexual life, but it's also not a huge part of our sexual life.

When we are not having intimacy and sexuality together, we can really notice a big impact on us, on our We and how connected we are, how functional we are, how close we are. So it is for bodily pleasure, but it's also for closeness, and it's also because we know that it keeps us moving forward as a connected couple and reaching the goals that we want to reach. That's a great question. I would invite that conversation to happen in your own self first and then with your partner, to become really aligned about it. And that's also a good entry point for conversations about sex: let's talk about what we're up to there together. What do we both want? Can we do a review? How is it going? You know? Like, let's talk about what's working. Let's talk about what we want. Different. Are you open to that?

Right. And sometimes, as you pointed out earlier, the answer to the question, what do you want is not readily available inside of you. So then you get to conduct the trial and error experiments of what do I like and what do I like now, and it's different from a month or six months or a year ago.

I think that's key too. Part of how to enter the conversation or be in the conversation is just to own like, if there was something you did like and you don't like anymore, it's like, yeah, I've changed. I've just noticed my body changing. And are you open to staying on top of that with me so we can keep deepening here. Now I have question for you, Wil,l if we didn't already have an aim to have sexual intimacy twice a week, which is what we do, that's like the magic number for us right now could change anytime. But if we weren't having that, and you felt like it was either too much or too little? How would you bring that topic to me? By way of supporting our listeners and having some ideas about how to bring that conversation up. And maybe we'll just do like, the typical gender thing here, where you're like, you're the guy, and you're not getting enough sex. That's typical. It's not for everybody. I know some couples it's reversed, and I know not all couples are male and female, so I'm just putting that out there.

I don't know how stereotypical that is for people our age. I mean, I think it's not uncommon in men in their 20s that I've known in one context or another to have a, you know, much higher libido. I mean, I did in my 20s. I think having sex with my girlfriend in my 20s was like, I could do that every day and be pretty psyched, or even multiple times a day sometimes.

So did you have to have the conversation with her?

That's a long conversation to get into.

Okay, maybe we skip it.

I think I would bring a lot of care what we talked about in the first 20 minutes of the show today, I would be pretty concerned about the impact that what I was going to bring to you might have on you, or especially given what I know about you know, kind of what you shared today on the show, about what happened before I met you, sexually and like when You were younger and performing right to make sure that your partner is having the best possible experience, actually, or what have you, knowing that that's in you, at least historically, you know, suggests to me that there's, there's a tenderness there, and special care is warranted when there's tenderness there, you know, from prior experiences. So I think the other thing that would come up for me, like, let's say, in the example, that I was actually really just wanting to be intimate with you once a week rather than twice a week. I think I would also feel the other side of it, which is like, oh, like, what if I'm not satisfying you sexually? And, you know, this very strong cultural meme about your partner going somewhere else because you're not enough, so to speak for them sexually, or you don't care enough about them sexually so on.

Right, I think key in what you're saying too, is if we can slow down enough to really, really, really, really, really, get each other's worlds and really help me understand why you don't want to have sex twice a week so that I'm not carrying the “Oh, I'm not attractive.” Or “Oh, there's something wrong with us.” You know, maybe you aren't attracted to me. But if that's the case, like, let's deeply get in there and get each other's worlds. Because I find that if we actually get each other's worlds, where we're doing the best we can to stand inside of their shoes and look outwards and understand the nuances and understand the words even, like, what do they mean by attraction? We might be saying the same word, but two different things, so the more we can do that for each other, usually there's like, common ground that we can find that we're both wanting, and hopefully we can find a win, win situation inside of that.

Definitely, I think there's obviously, there are reasons why people avoid talking about sensitive topics, because they're sensitive and they're loaded, and there can be fear about you know, what does this mean about me, or what does it mean about our relationship? On the other hand, if you think about it, choosing to avoid a difficult topic is just postponing something that gets worse if you don't deal with it straight away. Plus, I think there's a couple of really interesting possibilities. One is your partner might be also needing to talk about sexuality, and they're just waiting for someone to be brave enough to start the conversation. And that can be really beautiful and relieving for both people. Or you find out that your partner is just a complete and total monster that you need to get away from as soon as possible. I'm exaggerating, but the point is that if, if the conversation leads to deepening, great, if it leads to Okay, well, we've got big problems here, and we need to go work with a counselor, or maybe we need to split up. I'm not saying that that's not painful or challenging, but more clarity and more truth leads to better things for everybody.

Yeah, finding the misalignment actually talking about the misalignment like that's key to people getting what they want, even if it means it's a breakup, that's great. I love that. And you're also reminding me of one more piece here before we wrap, and anything else that you want to say too. But all of this really points towards secure functioning, the purpose of secure functioning, which is really creating enough safety and security inside of the partnership so that there's room for all different parts, there's room for all different expressions. There's ways that we can talk about all these things and hold them together. But if that initial base of safety and security and trust isn't strong and there then anything, no matter whether it's sexuality or it's household chores or puppies, kids, whatever it is, is going to be a lot harder to talk about and a lot harder to work as a team together, and really painful, like unnecessary suffering, in my opinion. So one way to create, you know, trust and safety and security and that we really stand behind, is creating relationship agreements, like I would say, for you and me, and maybe I would ask you this, but it's both our skill and histories that we bring to the table, but also these agreements that we have about how we're going to be with each other really help create that container and that safety and security.

For sure. You know, I think there are a small minority of people who grow up, I'm talking about less than 10% of people who grow up with parents who they teach through showing their kids how this works, secure, functioning what we're talking about, but the vast majority of us didn't grow up with that, and so our relationship agreements are a scaffolding that it's like a one of those metal cages that tomato vines can grow on, like It's something that we need in order to keep moving forward in what Dan Siegel calls earning secure attachment through practice. It takes a huge amount of practice to get there, but it's it is doable, and that, to me, is one of the most hopeful things that I know about humanity, is that we can overcome these pretty intense environments that you know most of us are growing up in.

Really well said. And unlike a tomato cage, it creates more freedom inside of the trust and security insecure functioning, there's more freedom for each person, and that's really what we're standing for, too. So thank you for saying that all of the things that we brought into this conversation have been really important points. And for those of you who are listening, and if any of you who are listening brought the topic to us, we would so love to hear well, what about this, or what about that, or you guys didn't touch on that, we would so love to hear anything else that you want to hear about this topic. We love talking about anything and everything related to We. Thanks for listening.