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EP 49: Reinventing L&D: Why Learning Teams Must Think Like a Business in 2025

Episode 49 • 4th December 2025 • Learning Matters • ttcInnovations

First of all, you need to PR yourself all the time. A lot of the people in all the organizations that I know beyond L and D, they don't know what L and D people are actually doing. They think that we're just coming up with training out of their asses, sorry for the language or whatever. We just like vomit like knowledge somewhere and that's it. Sometimes they even think that we are the subject matter experts. I once went to create an onboarding for one department and we had a kickoff meeting and they said,

Okay, great. This is what we need. When is it going to be ready? And I asked, you know, I need some people from your team to help me out with building the content. It's like, what do you mean? A lot of my work as a leader is to first of all, explain to everybody what that means to do L and D. Whenever I did all my keynotes and it was all mostly about, you know, data.

storytelling, a business mindset. If I have a book, you can just read the book and that's it. That would be my biggest service for the L &D and I'm not, you know, trying to make money out of it. It's really about doing a service to the community of L &D professionals, which I love and I love being part of. And I know so many great people that are having the same mindset as me and we're trying to kind of help spread the word and spread the revolution that we're at. Because if you don't join this revolution, you'll just be left behind. If I could help.

elevate that talent that will also benefit me when I'm looking for employees myself. So it's like it's good karma. Welcome.

Back to Learning Matters, I'm Doug Wooldridge, your host.

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And I'm very excited to be talking with our guest today. He's a strategic results driven people and culture and learning and development leader with over 20 years of international experience. He's a recognized scientist and award winning lecturer with a focus on scaling high growth organizations, driving operational excellence and transformative change. He's been awarded with OnCon Top 10 Learning and Development Professional Award, CLN Trailblazer Award, Learning Legacy Leader of the Year for 2024.

He's Kong: 2024

intro thank you who's that interesting guy you were talking about

Well, it's you and we, we appreciate you being here. So thank you so much. As always, we are going to be discussing the latest and greatest in the world of L and D. I'd like to start off with this first. What strategy matters most in learning and development today?

Well, I think the most important strategy is to treat L &D as a business. So that's the most important thing every L &D professional needs to do today. To really think like an entrepreneur, thinking like you are kind of a boutique business within a business. And you need to think about

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money in money out how much value you bring to the organization, how much money you bring to the business. You want to be seen as a revenue generating function and not just as a nice to have or a perk as many organizations do view L and D as such. So yeah, so that's, think the most important thing. And you can only do that by really being data driven, understanding the business and know how to tell

the right story to your leadership. So it's about the data, it's about the story and how you communicate what you're doing to the people who matter.

I love that the idea of storytelling to, to the higher ups to make sure that they understand why you're in need. So how do you teach folks to develop their story and, to push themselves to the forefront of the mind for their organization to, really bridge that gap between, well, do we need L and D? What do we need from it? Why do we need it? Where do you start?

I start with a problem we're trying to solve. So I always take this approach. You need to think about what the problem in the organization is, what the root cause of the problem is, and if learning is the solution or part of the solution. So once you think about that, you can start telling the story, right? And then when you understand, okay, what is the problem? What's the root cause of the problem? And what kind of learning experience

will help solve the problem. So once you know what the learning agenda is, now you need to think about, what do we expect to see after the learning, even before you start working on the program, right? So you need to think about what kind of metrics I need to look at post-training to show that this was successful, that this moved the needle, that this actually made a behavior change.

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and business impact within the Patrick, the third and fourth, and obviously fifth level as well if you can actually calculate ROI. So once you do that, even before you do any type of training, then you can already think about the story framework.

And then you actually need to do the work. So when you do the work, you think about, I know the agenda of the training. What kind of format is going to be the best for this type of training? So you really need to think about, it going to be an IOT? Is it going to be a digital learning experience? And you need to get all the right information to decide what is the best output you need to create to eventually create the best.

learning experience for this specific audience. You need to think about the audience because are they mostly Gen Z's, millennials, is it a more diverse kind of audience? You need to think about what would be the most engaging format for this specific audience. Also need to think about is this a one time thing? Is it going to be something that will be long term for future employees, future learners?

What is the shelf life of the course? Is it going to be changing all the time? Is it going to be something long term? So you really need to think about all of that when you think what kind of format I need to do and also think about how much I need to invest with what kind of metrics I'm going to see afterwards and how much we're going to move the needle. What's the ROI here? Is it only for a few teams? Is it something that's a global for a lot of employees that will move a lot with the needles?

and then we will see a huge impact to the business. This is where you make the business decision of what kind of format, how many hours and resources I need to create that training and then actually follow through it. And then always remembering that post-training, we need to follow all the metrics we already discussed before we even started and to see if we check the boxes. So there's ROI, if you can obviously connect that to very specific.

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business metrics and money. And if you don't or you can't, you can at least do ROE, return of expectations. So return of expectations is something that's also very important because if you cannot calculate ROI, at least you go through the metrics you determine and you can say, okay, how many boxes have I checked? Did I, was what I was expecting to happen actually happen? And if you check all these boxes, these are just as good as ROI because you...

showed performance change. You showed behavior change, better efficiency, better productivity, whatever the metrics are showing. And this is actually almost as good as ROI in some cases.

you're telling me is that in: 2025

Not at all. mean, you really need to think about beyond just smiley sheet. mean, qualitative data is good for if this is something I can do better next time in terms of the learning experience. This is more for me. This is more for the L &D understanding what I can improve in terms of the level one, Kirkpatrick, of like, how is the learning itself, right?

which is, you know, it's still important, but what's mostly important to the business is the actual behavior change and the business impact. So this is what you need to focus on. And again, smaller sheets are great, but it's a very small percentage of what you need to look at.

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So what are you looking at then as far as metrics and data?

So, LND people are usually, you know, they take all the data dump that they get from the LMS and are just showing all that data, completion rates, and the quizzes average or whatever it is. And not that it's not important in a way, but what I'm looking at is, was the training engaging? And were the people post-training able to do what they were supposed to do?

or do better post-training. So that's what I'm looking at. Exactly. So we're thinking about what kind of behavior change we're looking at, what kind of a better performance we're looking at, and we are measuring that performance. Now with sales, customer success, any of the business roles, it's a little bit easier to look at. But let's say you have finance or R &D, you need to look at other metrics. For example, in R &D, can look at

how many debugging's do they need to do this month, right? So if I lowered the debugging's or all these kind of things, great. We're saving time, we're more productive and time is money. You can convert some of these to money obviously. So really you think about performance metrics. And each role has different performance metrics and you can get that from the leaders of those departments to understand what for them.

would make a huge change in terms of performance and in terms of being more efficient. And again, that equals money. If you think about, if I save X amount of time, I can look at, what's the average salaries for this department and how much time I saved times the average money times the amount of people. This is kind of estimation of how much I might've saved in terms of money. So you can play with the numbers now.

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do we think that 100 % of the training was the 100 % of the behavior change? Not necessarily, but you can do some qualitative surveys and observations to see how much the training actually impacted the behavior change. So you can do, for example, kind of reflective surveys month after the training, and you can ask people,

What contributed most to your success in the past month? Was it the training, my manager, the resources, whatever it is. And you can see how many contributed the training for their success. And you can evaluate approximately how much of a percentage the training actually contributed to the success of the people that month, that quarter, whatever you're looking at. But I also ask the team leads, the managers.

to be involved, because that's the most important thing. Before I do any type of training, I train the managers of the people who are being trained about what your people are going to be trained on. And I let them know what kind of behavior change we're expecting to see post-training. And then we ask them to observe their employees and report to us if they've seen any improvement in these and these metrics before, you know, after training and obviously to understand how

do they think that the training helped with that specific behavior change?

That's brilliant because it takes out any of the guesswork for the managers because they know what to expect. They know what they're looking for. So I think that's awesome. When we were discussing doing the podcast last week, you mentioned that a lot of what you talk about with other L &D folk in the world is how do they approach their business to up their budget so that they can actually provide the learning that their corporation needs?

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So besides the storytelling aspect of it, what is your strategy or what do you tell folks to help them build their strategy to try to get that budget in the right place?

First of all, need to PR yourself all the time. A lot of the people in all the organizations that I know...

beyond L and D. They don't know what L and D people are actually doing. They don't, they don't. They think that we're just coming up with training out of our asses, sorry for the language or whatever. We just vomit knowledge somewhere and that's it. Sometimes they even think that we are the subject matter experts. I once went to create an onboarding for one department and we had a kickoff meeting and they said, okay, great, this is what we need. This is the onboarding we're

thinking about when is it going to be ready? And I asked, you I need some people from your team to help me out with building the content. It's like, what do you mean? You cannot just build it for me? And it's like, do I really know how you onboard people? No, I need a such a minor expert to work with to build that for you. And then so what do you actually do if we're producing everything and you're giving you all the information? So people don't really understand the work of an LND and I'm trying to...

to describe it sometimes as a ghostwriter in a way. So I need to work with a sub-tomator expert to create a learning experience. And I actually need to show them what that details in terms of the end-to-end cycle of creating a learning experience from the needs analysis, from all the work we're doing, then actually deciding what kind of format, designing, developing, all the like.

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Addy model that we all know or other instructional design models, pretty much understand, they need to understand what instructional designers actually do, what e-learning developers actually do. And once they understand the whole process, it's like, okay, now I understand why it takes so long to create that because they think, oh, I need the training for two days from now or whatever. No, this takes a lot of thought, a lot of...

you know, design work and really get into the minds of the learner and trying to understand how to deliver that knowledge in a way that will be engaging and that will be able to apply what they need to apply on their day to day. So people don't understand that. So a lot of my work as a leader is to first of all, explain to everybody what that means to do L &D. And then

PR our work all the time. When we do newsletters, I'm not just writing, we have these new courses or whatever. It's not just promoting the content that we created. It's showing the success work, showing what happened post-training in terms of behavior change, in terms of the impact of the business. I need to pump it up all the time because if you don't, it's like you haven't done it. nobody cares that you know how much impact you bring to the table.

cares how you see other data. like, my god, success, great. No, you need to PR that thing to everyone, obviously, especially to the leadership, because eventually they're the decision-making people in terms of budget, in terms of headcount, and all these kind of things. And when we have recession, and when we have like, we all know we have some hard times sometimes. The first.

employees to be let go are usually HR, L and D, all the non revenue generating functions, they're going to be cut, not the business side, obviously. So if you're able to always constantly show that the value show the, the, the ROI show why it's important that even more important in times of change and pivoting, you have to have a strong L and D function to survive that, to survive that.

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the time of change because time of change, meaning that people need to do more with less people need to be up skilled to be better and do better job with with less amount of people. So actually you need us more. And what I loved about, you know, wakes that when I create that rapport of what I was doing and when we had unfortunately like a wave of layoffs.

We were the only ones who weren't cut at all. Nobody was let go from my department. And because I was able to do a good job PRing what we were doing, pretty much was able to articulate exactly what each person in my team is actually doing and how they're contributing to the success of the department and the success of creating the best learning experiences that bring this amazing

behavior change and amazing impact in the business and this is how much money we brought to the table or saved.

I want to dig into your team just a little bit. have a pretty big team over there at Wix and what exciting things are you guys working on this year?

So Wix is a great place because they have a really interesting strategy. They prefer to create everything internally and not be dependent on external vendors necessarily. So I have my own big production team that all they do is producing digital learning experiences from institutional designers, e-learning, videographers, multimedia.

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people, designers, this is something that is great to have because we can come up with a training solution very quickly when we see a need. So just think about it. Let's say we see a knowledge or a skill gap, right? If you need to be dependent on external vendors to create those learning experiences, it will take you time.

So, and time is money. So if you have all the resources to create something internally, it's going to be very quick. You can bridge that gap way quicker. And that means you're going to save more money to the business because you know, if people are not performing the way they should, you know, that, that costs money to the company. So, that's why all the production team trainers, we have our own soft skills team that creates.

soft skills workshop, soft skills trainings online. And we make sure that we always look at not just the knowledge gaps, but also the skill gaps, because that's very, very important. And especially in the business roles, have a lot of soft skills, some people call it power skills, human skills, that are very, important to...

do your job in a better way, especially when you're communicating with our clients. So this is something we can, again, bridge very, very quickly. We see a gap, immediately we create the relevant workshop or the relevant course, and we are able to produce it pretty quickly and obviously deliver it pretty quickly. So this is something that is a great sandbox for me to work with.

But also, because we are a tech company and we're a software company, we can utilize a lot of our own tools that we have in general. We have our own AI solution and we can create our own AI tools internally based on that AI tool that we have. So we are doing a lot of things internally and we build off things internally to save us a lot of time using AI, using the technology that we have. We are website builders, so we even create our own LMS.

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So our LMS is exactly what we need, has only the features that we need. If we need something, we do not depend on any external vendor to wait till the product roadmap will come to that solution that we ask for. We can create ourselves. So this is something that's very unique. This is not for every company, but everything that we do for other L &D professionals that don't have access to that internally, you can find it externally with

Other vendors, there's a lot of great vendors out there and you can definitely find solutions out there if you cannot, but you need the budget. You need to pitch it to your leadership and you need to know how to show the ROI of what you're bringing to the table. If you have a vendor you wanna work with, you need to do the right pitch to understand what kind of value codes that could bring.

how it's solving your problem at the moment, why it's important to invest in this first and not other things. And now with the AI, there's so many great tools out there that can help you cut the production of e-learning experiences in huge, huge, huge amount of time. We were able to cut 50 % of our production of e-learnings.

in time so we can create double the work in the same amount of time and our work is just increasing. So for us, it was an amazing time saving. So we were able to be more productive and more efficient with how we produce our e-learnings. And kudos to my e-learning manager that just took the team and just explored all the AI solutions that we can to improve the concreation. We used to use

Intro narrators to narrate some of our videos and now you can have an automated like narrators via some of the AI tools You can create video quicker. You can edit things quicker. You can create videos in even two five minutes. Sometimes there's a lot of you can create off scenarios With AI tools kind of a coaching tools There's a lot out there that you can utilize to really elevate the the work that you do and obviously

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Elevating the work means you can save time, but you can also create even more engaging learning experiences that the learner can actually be better, be more efficient, and the time to productivity can be even shorter than before.

Not only are you guys able to react incredibly quick to potential gaps, it sounds like you're able to predict them as well. having all these tools at your service, having a big team, having a corporation that really respects your work, understands it, sees the value in it, and loves the solutions that you're creating, it sounds like the perfect place to work.

It kinda is, but...

Even if you don't have that, and that's what I want to send my recommendations for all the LD professionals out there, it's getting the buy-in. Eventually, if you get the buy-in and you get the seat at the table, you need to show the work. So let's say you're starting a new company and you don't have all these resources. You can still do a lot with minimum resources, but you need to think about what will be my quick wins, what will move the needle most, showcase the potential of your work,

you can do and then you will get the budget, then you'll get the headcount. And if you keep showing and keep doing it all the time consistently, consistency is the key here because you don't stop. It's like, oh, I have a seat at the table. I have my buy-in. I'm good. I don't have to show it anymore. You constantly need to show that. And once you do that, you will get more money. You'll get more budget and you'll be seen as a revenue generating function. And you will be able to understand the business better. And that's the most important thing. If you understand the business,

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understand the business KPIs, if you understand the strategy of the organization, what are the plans to do in the next year, you'll be able to prioritize your projects and to choose projects that will move the needle and not just wait till they ask you to do the work. Because a lot of LND people, what they do, they're just waiting until, we need training on this and then they said, okay, I will do this. Okay, I will do that. No, the power is

to say no sometimes, because you know how many times I was requested to do a course and I was like, wait, but what are you trying to do with this? mean, sometimes.

those managers that ask for courses because one person in their team asked for it. then it's like, just because one person asked for it, means that we had to create it. And then when I used to create those and just say yes to anything, then you see that post launch, not all people took that course. It didn't really move the needle and wasn't really needed. So again, the burden to prove the need is on the stakeholders.

they need to provide me, again, what the problem is, what the root cause of the problem is, and if trading the solution, we need to come up with that together and understand what is the impact, what is the business impact? And you need to prioritize the projects based on that. Also, do your own needs analysis. Get access to...

then the performance, the interview people from all the different functions, understand what is the biggest knowledge and skill gaps that you see that will really move the needle and then suggest that. So we're not just waiting to be asked to do certain things. We suggest ourselves, okay, we've seen that customer success people, they have a lot of churn, whatever. Let's see why, let's investigate why and let's see what kind of training we can help them to reduce the churn, right?

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So it's not just being passive, it's being proactive. And once you do that, then you can really, they can really see the value of it because you're not just like sitting there idly waiting or, you know, then, just saying yes to everything. And then you'd create things you, and then you're the one to blame if it didn't work, right? If there's no behavior change, if there's no, it's like, okay, you wasted time and money to create this training. Nobody took and it didn't impact anything. Exactly.

Right. No, that doesn't cut it. I want to I want to switch things up just a little bit and learn a little bit more about you, Eli. What what brought you into the world of L &D? What got you to this point today?

Yeah. So it's kind of funny because I actually was a scientist before that. I was the biggest nerd you could think of. I did my PhD in nuclear spin physics. wow. And yeah, was, my dream was to be a professor, science professor, and I love teaching. And part of what brought me to L and D is first of all, I have a passion for education and learning. Even when I was in high school, I was a tutor. I was a math tutor, science tutor, and I was

teaching while doing my undergrad and grad school. And I love teaching as a professor. what's really funny is that if you think about science courses, university courses, science hasn't changed, math hasn't changed. The professors have been teaching the same way, the same courses for tens and tens of years. But you know what really changed?

the students that your audience change and you cannot change in the same way. You cannot teach in the same way that you taught 20 years ago, 30 years ago. If you want people to really love science and be engaged, you have to teach in a different way. And that's what I did with the courses I taught at NYU. And it was quite a success. I won a few awards there and people loved the way I was teaching it because I was really trying to think about the audience. And even when I gave talk

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and I gave like, you know, everywhere about my research, whatever, I really thought about who the audience is, what they know, what they don't know. And you only always need to think about what's in it for them, because when they're sitting, it's like, what's in it for me? You have pretty much 90 seconds to captivate the audience. So you need to know the audience very well before. So I always do a research of who the audience is. And I usually never do the same talk.

every time I was changing depending on the audience, depending on the scale of the audience, depending on the venue, everything you really need to think about the experience of how you teach and how you do your learnings. And that made me really passionate about, okay, can I bring it to the corporate world? The way I think about.

teaching and learning. And I'm also a lifelong learner. I'm also very techie. And I really wanted to not be stuck in academia and think about how I can move my skill set to the corporate world. And I met someone in the most bizarre way. And I kind of had the opportunity to leave academia, which was crazy to leave. Everybody was saying, you're leaving a tenure track position. Like, why? It's like everybody, all, every PhD's dream to do so. And I just said, you know, I wanted to learn something new.

wanna see where it brings me. since then, I never look back. And obviously, I learned a lot myself how to create learnings when I'm not a matter expert, because in academia, I was a subject matter expert, but now I'm not. So it's really about working with subject matter experts and also learning myself, which is great. And I love tech because I love learning new technologies. And as an L &D person, you can move from one industry to another from one thing to, so I did like video platforms.

advertising technology, now I'm in the website building. I love that I can bring L &D to different types of industries, still in the tech, but still very different type of products. So for me, it was very, very interesting. And I can also go and do L &D for finance, for healthcare, whatever it is, because the skill set you need to be a great L &D professional is not necessarily dependent on the industry itself. It's about how you can create the most important

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learning experiences and obviously understand the culture, understand the people. And I'm a very people's person. think you have to have that passion for people, for learning, for growth. And that's pretty much the biggest kick I have for my job is like you're impacting people's lives and careers. mean, just think about how many people you touch and how many people you help them get promoted, even doing sometimes intermobility and do something else completely. You're offering them learning opportunities that can upskill them.

within their own field and also learn a new field. You know how many people move from sales to customer success or from customer success to even product. Half of my team are internability people. They did not do L &D before they came to my department. They were Wix employees in different roles and they learned L &D. And again, I was looking for the passionate, the basic skillset of how to solve a problem.

Are you a people's person? How can you really get into the mind of a person? There's often neuroscience behind L &D as well. And really kind of like do a lot of trial and error, do a lot of A-B testing, do trials and errors. So it's a fun thing. For me, L &D is science. And you can teach it for the people who want to learn that. But it's beyond just science, because it's science with people's connections.

So it's a great combo for me as a scientist as well.

I love your outlook on this. have an incredibly optimistic and people centric approach to learning. I think it's wonderful. I want to talk just a little bit about the book that you're in the middle of writing. You said you mentioned that you're looking at potentially next six months, next seven months for release. What led you to get into the world of being an author?

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So I've been.

doing a lot of keynote speaking at L &D conferences. So I met a lot of L &D professionals in the past four or five years. I've been doing this pretty rigorously. And I always saw the same problem. I always saw people who are, as I said, pretty much passive, waiting for things to happen. And they're very old school mindset of I'm just doing the training that I've been asked to do.

And that's it. I'm not thinking about what's next. But then they complain that they don't have enough budget. They don't have enough headcount. It's funny because you're going to all these conferences and you see a lot of great vendors that you want to work with, but you don't have the budget to work with them. So it's kind of sad. Okay, if you want to work with all these great vendors that you see, it's like you need to pitch yourself and you need to PR yourself and you need to show how much value brings.

to the table. So you really need to change that mindset from being, again, a service oriented function that just waits for to be asked to do something to an entrepreneur. And that mindset, I saw that is just lacking to all the only people. And now you add the whole AI.

Revolution that's been here for, you know, more than you think. mean, now people are waking up about it, but it's been here for at least two, three years already. And, and the people who will be successful in L and D are not the people going to be afraid of is AI going to replace me, but is, am I, do I know how to work well with AI to elevate my work and be even

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more productive and efficient with my work. So I would say you need to think about AI as your sidekick while you still the lead actor. So you need to bounce off with a psychic pretty well. You need to know your psychic very well. You'd have a great relationship with you to know him very, very well, but he's still your psychic as long as you know how to utilize it to outshine yourself as well and still be the lead actor and not let the psychic steal the show. So, um,

Yeah, it's kind of like from the movie. I'm a movie buff, I'm always everything is for me is from the movies. Yeah, so actually my first job was a blockbuster when they actually existed and that was the best job in the world. was just.

watching movies all day, talking about movies, and that to me was still like the highlight of my career. Yeah, it's the best. didn't pay as well, but, you and now you don't have the experience of actually going to a video store and pick up a movie and like look at all these like really like, okay, this is what I have to watch now. It's like such a huge decision of what I'm going to do in this Friday night. And if it's bad movies, like you're kind of...

F'd up so you cannot just choose something on Netflix in like an easy one, two, three. Yeah, so a lot of people need to understand they need to be more techie, need to be more data driven, need to know how to tell a story. You need to look at all the data. Okay, what's relevant data? What kind of story the data tells me? It's a huge mindset shift.

And whenever I did all my keynotes and it was all mostly about, you know, data, ROI, storytelling, business mindset. And then everybody was saying, can you consult? Can you consult for me? Cause I cannot have a full time job. And then I said, you know, if I have a book and I just, you can just read the book and that's it. That would be my biggest service for the LND. And I'm not, you know, trying to make money out of it. It's really about doing a service to the community of LND professionals, which I love. I love being part of, and I know so many

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great people that are having the same mindset as me and we're trying to kind of help spread the word and spread the revolution that we're at. Because if you don't join this revolution, you'll just be left behind. And I know when I open any positions at Wix for L &D professionals, I just don't see a lot of really good talent. And if I could help elevate that talent.

that will also benefit me when I'm looking for employees myself. So it's like, it's good karma. You give, you take, and it's, so.

That's awesome. And I think you're 100 % right there. And it's not just the bettering the L &D world, betters the L &D professionals, it also betters every single corporation. like you said, if you're not a part of the revolution, not only are you personally going to be left behind, but so is your corporation. such

uncertain future as we have right now. You really can't be left behind. You got to be you got to be adaptive. You have to be able to change. You have to be able to to really be agile.

If you educate those L &D people to help spread the word about the impact and value of L &D to their leaders, their leaders will view L &D in a different way and that will actually create more opportunities for L &D professionals.

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throughout because usually L &D teams are pretty small. And if you can turn almost every company to be like Quicks where they embrace L &D and bring as many L &D professionals to the team because they understand the value of it, that will bring more job opportunities for everybody. So that's going to be also a great thing.

Well said. Before I get you out of here, can people connect with you?

you. So on LinkedIn, Dr. Eli Benetacher, obviously, when the book is out, you'll see all about it. And I'm also probably going to have my own podcast about once we release the book. Not competing with yours, but it will be things that are more than merry. I agree. So yeah, and obviously, if you're doing a lot of conferences in L &D, you'll probably see me around. I'm doing a lot of those, especially I'm going to do more probably when the book is

out or just before it's out. yeah, connect with me. And if you need any inspiration or anything you can help you with, I'm always here to help as my gift to the community because I'm getting a lot out of it as well.

Well, we appreciate you coming on here, Eli, and sharing your incredible breadth of knowledge and your excitement for the industry. So thank you so much.

(: 39:32

Thank you for having me. That was great.

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