In this episode of 'dare to be more', host Anthony Perl speaks with Trevor Mee, Head of Music at MLC School, about the School's exceptional music program and the profound impact music education has on young women's development.

Trevor shares his journey from the Queensland Conservatorium to teaching at Newington College and ultimately to MLC School, explaining how his passion for group music-making and the social aspects of music led him to education. He describes the fascinating differences between boys' and girls' schools, noting how girls often need encouragement to step forward but produce incredibly fine work once they do.

The conversation explores MLC School's comprehensive music program, which begins in Pre-Kindergarten and continues through Year 12. Trevor explains the compulsory string program in Years 1 and 2, the introduction of band instruments in Year 3, and the diverse range of ensembles including string orchestras, symphony orchestras, jazz bands, choirs, and rock programs. He describes how MLC School has built on its reputation as one of the finest classical music schools in the country whilst expanding to offer equally strong contemporary and jazz programs.

Trevor discusses the importance of catering to the full spectrum of musical interests and abilities - from students pursuing diploma-level classical training to self-taught electric bass players, from operatic singers to pop vocalists. He explains how the music department works to create well-rounded musicians who understand music holistically, not just their own instrument or voice.

The episode explores how music education develops transferable skills - from shaping phrases musically to expressing oneself in other areas, from managing performance nerves to presenting confidently in high-stakes situations. Trevor shares touching stories of students who, whilst not musical superstars, found their music experiences to be among the best things they did at school.

Trevor addresses the delicate balance parents face in encouraging music practice, sharing his own experience as a parent and explaining how MLC School's supportive atmosphere helps students maintain their love of music even when they've been pushed to practice. He describes the joy of seeing a Year 12 student who once wanted to be a banker now pursuing a music career because the School's environment kept her passion alive.

The conversation concludes with Trevor's interpretation of 'dare to be more' in the context of music education - encouraging girls to overcome their perfectionist tendencies and dare to show people what they're capable of, stepping up and having a go even when the work isn't quite finished.

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Host:  Anthony Perl

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The power of music education.

2

Welcome to Dare to Be More, the podcast

from MLC School in Burwood, Sydney.

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Today we're exploring the transformative

power of music education with

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Trevor me the head of music.

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Discover how MLC School's comprehensive

music program spans from pre-kindergarten

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through year 12, offering everything

from classical orchestras to jazz

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bands and contemporary rock programs.

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Learn why every girl from

year one learns an instrument.

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How music develops skills that

transfer to all areas of life and why

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performing at the Sydney Opera House

creates memories that last a lifetime.

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We'll explore how music education

builds confidence, resilience, and the

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courage to show what your capable of.

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I'm your cohost, Anthony Pearl.

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Let's get into today's conversation.

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Well, hello everyone and welcome to

another episode of Dare to Be More,

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and we're gonna be talking about the

power of music education with Trevor.

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Trevor Mees: Trevor,

welcome to the program.

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Thanks very much, Anthony.

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We were just talking and you said it might

be an idea for me to introduce myself and

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let people know a little bit about me.

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So I've been here at MLC,

this is my sixth year.

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I came from Newington College

before that, 10 years before that.

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And before that I was

teaching in Newcastle, but.

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I suppose the most relevant sort of

thing is we've got school students

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here and I think back to when I was

at school and I just went to music

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as it was something that I'd been

taught for when I was six years old.

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And then, you know, I, I'd reached

a skill level where I was accepted

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into the Queensland Conservatorium

of Music and I found that people who

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were doing performing for music for a

career were really looking at at least

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four to six hours practice every day.

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Really didn't suit my personality to do

that, so I ended up sort of going veering

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into a teaching path and realized that

the thing that I enjoyed most about

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my growing up and learning music was

that experience of getting, especially

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when kids get together, making music.

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And the social aspects of it.

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And so I gravitated towards doing

orchestras and choirs and things and,

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and having that group music experience.

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So the classroom really, I

really appreciate that group

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dynamic and that sort of thing.

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So that's kind of like in a very, very

short nutshell, my background and how I

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ended up here as head of music at MLC.

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Yeah.

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Anthony Perl: Fascinating and

so many things to pick up on.

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But I, I did just wanna ask you

briefly, I mean, moving from

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Newington, a boys school Yeah.

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To a girl school.

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Correct.

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How much of a difference do you see?

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Trevor Mees: Yeah.

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Well, I could only if I took

you to a lunchtime, Anthony

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and at Newington College.

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The lunchtime at MLC, within two

minutes, you would see the difference.

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So you see lots of ball games right

across the campus at a boys school.

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It's like boys have this ability.

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You could just grab a boy, a group

of boys, put a ball in amongst them,

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and they will create the rules.

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Within two minutes, there'll

be some sort of game.

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Going.

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There's never really any sort of

sit down and negotiation about

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it, that it just happens just

naturally that they will, they'll

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make up the rules as they go along.

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The girls are living little pods

talking in groups, so the social

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atmosphere is very much more a

negotiation all the way along.

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So, yeah, and I found with with boys,

they were more willing to really

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just throw themselves into things

and have a go, whereas girls find it.

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They need that bit of encouragement to

like, to, ironically, the, they do very

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fine things as soon as they do have a go.

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I just found they need that

atmosphere of, of comfort ready

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to, to present what they're doing.

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Yeah.

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So there's absolutely,

there was large differences.

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Yeah.

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Anthony Perl: I can imagine, and I

mean, tell me about the music program

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at MLC and how that sort of starts.

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Because you talk, you know about your

influences, particularly in that almost

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like a team environment, which people

I think forget about that, that music

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is so much a part of that because it.

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Yes, people are learning individually,

but ultimately they're getting

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together and performing together,

which is not dissimilar to the

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sporting side of things as well, and

I think that's an important aspect.

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But tell me, just give me an overall

impression of the program first.

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Sure.

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Well, I mean,

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Trevor Mees: obviously we started

pre-K, you know, music classes

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happen and like from pre-K right

through to year 12, and you've got.

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In the classroom.

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There is of course performance that

happens in there, but listening

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as well and as well as composing.

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So just dependent on the level

of the appropriate level.

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Those three things, those three

elements happen in the classroom.

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But that's curriculum wise.

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In a practical sense as far as

co-curricular music, really, that we

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have students that have started typically

string instruments, mainly from when they

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were sometimes down to three years old.

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So they already come with

some skill, but we start.

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A year one program in strings.

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And that's simply because year at

that stage, strings is accessible,

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where they're not physically capable

to play a band instrument at that

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stage until they reach year three.

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So in year one and two, they do

compulsory string classes, violin,

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violas, cello, double basses.

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And then in year three, they have

the option to continue with that

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or to have a go to band instrument.

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We have sort of like, you know, in

our junior school program, we've got a

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ukulele unit that, those that haven't,

that haven't connected with, that they

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might want to, you know, learn how to

play a ukulele and sing a song with it.

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There's choirs there.

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Uh, and that sort of then branches

out into what we have is like a,

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um, a string program with string

orchestras and symphony orchestras,

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band programs, jazz bands.

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The ukuleles can lead on

to being in a rock program.

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So right across the spectrum, really.

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And that's one thing that I've sort

of like, I'm proud of here, that in

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MLC has had a, a reputation as being.

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If not, well look, arguably one

of the finest music schools in,

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in, certainly in terms of, of

classical music in the country.

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And we still have that.

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We can still, we have students here who

are going onto a concert career as, as

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classical musicians, but also across the

spectrum now we have, you know, very,

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very fine jazz bands, contemporary music.

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Yeah.

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So I'm loving the fact that I've

been able to help the school even

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bring those areas up to be, you

know, on a par with the, with what's

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traditionally been all here, you know,

so very strong with classical music.

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Anthony Perl: Yeah.

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I mean, it's wonderful to

have that, Brett, isn't it?

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Because I was gonna say, there's so

many musical influences these days.

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And do you find that the girls are

bringing that to the table as well?

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They're different interests

and different kinds of music.

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Is that enable them to explore

those different types that exist?

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Trevor Mees: Yeah, completely.

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You know, they all come with a

background, you know, well, I'm, I

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should say that, that's from me saying

as a high school teacher, mainly.

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So, and look, there needs to be a, a

worthwhile experience for the girl who has

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done her diploma exam in violin as much

as there is the girl who is a self-taught,

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got absolute gun electric bass player.

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So we need to, I think, be able to

cater for both of those, you know,

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that entire spectrum, or the girl who's

just like a, an operatic singer or

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a girl who has an amazing pop voice.

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Yeah.

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So, yeah, we try to cater

for where they're at.

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There are certain things about

music that you wanna fill in.

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Then with some students you are filling in

them, encouraging them to try things like

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improvisation, but they've always just

learned the notes that are on the page.

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There's some students though, that

when you show them the notes on

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the page, that terrifies them.

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So you've gotta be able

to take both of those.

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And what we try to do in a music

department, you know, in the classroom

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and in our ensembles, is actually

make a more well-rounded musician.

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You know, I think a lot of musicians

have worked before with the

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singer who has this amazing voice.

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Really they don't know anything about

music and what the musicians who are

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accompanying them actually are doing.

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And musicians always really appreciate

when the singer in the band actually

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knows what they are as a musician as well.

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'cause they speak a different language

then and they collaborate better.

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And the ultimate outcome is so

much more rich when they have

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that understanding as well.

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Anthony Perl: Yeah, absolutely.

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I mean it, it's true what you say.

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There is so many aspects to it,

and that's part of it, isn't it?

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Being able to understand, even if you're

in an orchestra, for example, understand

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what different instruments are bringing

to the table as part of that process.

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Trevor Mees: Yeah.

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Look, and a lot of the process for

most of our classical musicians

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is to go to a teacher once a week,

one-on-one, and then be practicing

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in their bedroom or in a studio for

the rest of the time, you know, so.

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Our ensembles offer that idea of, of

being able to, and even in a classroom,

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in an elective classroom as well,

it offers that also, you know, you

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are interacting with other people.

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You know, one thing here is like

if we're have keyboard students,

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we encourage them to be involved.

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Join a band.

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In the sense of being a percussionist,

because the xylophone has the

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same keyboard, if you like, that

a, that a piano keyboard has.

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So they already know that and

it gives them that ensemble.

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You know, piano is one instrument

that we can't have a piano orchestra.

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You know, it's hard to get 50

pianos and put the all in one room,

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you know, the school's got got a

budget, but I don't think I'd be

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able to stretch it to there, but.

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Yeah, the, so for them to get

that ensemble and play with other

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people I think is really valuable.

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And the school offers that.

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It's almost a little bit like, I imagine

when you went to school, Anthony, you

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know, one thing I loved about it, and

I'm not saying this flippantly, but

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I really enjoyed lunchtime because

you had a whole cricket team there.

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Or, or I could play tennis up against

the garage wall, but like, you

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know, when there's another person

there, or you know, your mates that

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are playing footy together, it's

so much more of a rich experience.

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Anthony Perl: Absolutely many hours spent

playing football and various and cricket

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during this, during those school years.

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Tell me a little bit about the influence

that you think music has elsewhere,

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because learning music is, has a full-on

effect to other things, doesn't it?

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Trevor Mees: Yeah.

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Well look, I think that.

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If you know how to shape a phrase

musically, you know how to express

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yourself in other, in other areas.

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You know, before we came on the

podcast, I was telling you that like,

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you know, value of music education, I

feel like a Charlotte, and if I was to

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talk about, like, about brain research

and that sort of thing, but it stands

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to reason that the same areas of the

brain really are in operation when you

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are trying to play a beautiful phrase.

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As to when, like I was talking to a

year 12 girl this afternoon who, you

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know, she's gonna be in the next few

years, having to go to high stakes

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interviews and you know, being able to

convince someone because you know, you

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know, language has a lilt about it and

poetry, you know, all sorts of things.

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And when they write an essay that this

sentence either is structured like,

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and it is akin to a musical phrase.

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You know, so I think it provides

all of those skills and you know, or

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it backs those things up at least.

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And they're also, music students

are used to stepping on stage with

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the nerves that accompany that.

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And they've had so much of a background

of being, being able to face and deal with

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that, that when they come to situations

in their life where they have to give a

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presentation in front of 20 people and

the CEO's sitting over there and there's,

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you know, like high level executives.

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I think that background helps them

to step in front in those situations

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and actually have something in

their back pocket that they've

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done this sort of situation before.

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Anthony Perl: Well, what about

the extremes of things here?

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I mean, we've talked about some of

the students that go on and have

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musical careers or use their music

in some way, shape, or form, but it's

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probably sitting at the other end of

things so that those that are kids

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that are maybe are less talented and

don't have a musical ear and find and

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struggle with some of those things.

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So how well do they feel supported and

how, how do you manage that difference?

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Yeah.

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In those streams?

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Look, you

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Trevor Mees: know, I'm glad you

asked that question, Anthony Course.

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I think a couple of times before

they've, that I've had students, and

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I'm thinking actually probably more

in, in the, like at, at when I was

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at, at Newington with some boys that

would come up and they never pretended

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that they were gonna be musicians.

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And, and certainly there's girls

here that are like that as well.

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You know, they're, they know that they're

not one of the superstar musicians

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and we have, you know, musical heroes

of the, that the kids watch them

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and perform and go, wow, you know.

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I can remember some kids would come

up to me at their valedictory and you

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know, like, and they would come to

shake your hand and say, you know, I,

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look, sir, I know I wasn't the greatest

violinist, but they really wanted to

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let you know that the experiences they

had in music at that time was one of

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the best things they did at school.

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You know, so it, it's like that's

that it, I think it so enriches

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their school life, you know?

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I mean, if you think about your time

at school, I don't imagine that you

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would, men remember it could be is, and

there is inspirational teachers, don't

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get me wrong with this comment, but.

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You're probably not gonna remember a math

class or you know, a science L lesson

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that, you know, like you were looking

at a chemical equation or something.

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But I think what people tend to remember,

sporting things are one thing, you

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know, if their basketball team actually

won the premiership, um, concerts.

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You know, we do a major concert every

second year at the Sydney Opera House

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and like that's an incredible experience.

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Like, let's be honest, like a lot

of these kids, that's gonna be the

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pinnacle of their music performance.

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You know?

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Or if it's Sydney Town Hall, they're

not gonna do those sort of things again.

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And I think they really

do understand that.

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And they're together with these

people that they spend every day

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with and that they know so well.

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I think it's a, it's one of the more

powerful experiences they have at

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MLC School or any school for that

matter, be in, be in the band, be in

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the choir, just like get involved.

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It doesn't matter if

you are the superstar.

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You know, your, your conductor, your,

the person taking that ensemble would

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just love it if you are there with

enthusiasm and you are working at

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your part and contributing your bit.

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That's, that's the aim.

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Anthony Perl: Yeah, I think there's,

you know, often I imagine for a lot of

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the girls that can sit there and say,

well, I don't really understand pitch

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so well and I can't hear things that

to the same degree and I think I sound

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good, but when other people around

them saying, you don't sound so good.

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It's being able to manage

all of that, isn't it?

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I mean, that can be a challenging

thing, whether it's singing or playing

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an instrument, it doesn't matter.

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That can be challenging

for the girls, I imagine.

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But.

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It's good that that's being

managed through the process and

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that there's a place for all of

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Trevor Mees: them.

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Yeah.

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I don't think, you know, like you

don't wanna expose anyone, you know,

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a solo's come up from time to time

and that's, you know, like there's a

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little bit of like, who's gonna get

the solo part and that sort of thing.

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And, but you know, like the,

you do develop a sense of

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care for those individuals.

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You're not gonna put somebody in the, in a

situation where they're not gonna be able

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to, you know, to stand up and perform.

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Sometimes though, it's like, no, well

actually, yeah, I know you're nervous,

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but I, here's your opportunity.

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You know?

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Yeah.

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It's a balance.

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You do have to like lean on your

just sort of human understanding

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for those situations really.

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Anthony Perl: Uh, I just also wanted to

ask you from a parent perspective, 'cause

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you often hear about parents that might

be pushing their girls particularly around

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music and to do a certain amount and to

make sure you're, you know, repeating it

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every day and be quite strict about that.

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How do you respond to that sort

of environment and what do you

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recommend is the right thing for

parents to do to encourage music?

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Maybe not take it too far.

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Okay.

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Trevor Mees: Well that's

a good one, isn't it?

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So I'm gonna rely on my

experience as a parent here.

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So like, you know, having three

children and they're all, they're

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all grown up and out of the three of

them, one is now like a music teacher.

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So he followed in his dad's footsteps.

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But the two girls are doing, you

know, another separate career.

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I, some people are natural practices.

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My wife, who I met playing in within

an orchestra, she loves to practice.

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Whereas I said before, for me doing

four to six hours practice every day.

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It was like after 30 minutes, 40

minutes, I'll be going, okay, I'm

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kind of, is there anyone to talk to?

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But like the, so some of them will be

natural practices, some of them won't.

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We had a deal in our family is that

they all learned because I believed in

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the benefit of it up until lower 15.

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So when they're in about year

10 and you're choosing electives

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for your senior classes, well,

okay, you're, you're thinking then

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about where am I gonna specialize?

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You know, um, you know, but we get some

students who like would absolutely be

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superstars at music who, um, who then,

you know, they've got, and sometimes

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with family priorities of like, no, I

want you to go into this sort of career.

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I suppose you, you've gotta be guided

and I think some push from parents

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is, is like, it, it was necessary

for me, put it that way when I didn't

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like practice when I was a child.

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So if it wasn't for my mom and dad going,

no, you've gotta go down and off you go.

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And if we don't hear the violin coming

out from there, there's a problem.

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You know, at some point I was grateful,

you know, I was grateful at the point

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where I played in an orchestra where, you

know, with people who were professional

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musicians that I'm like, wow, okay.

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So I went through this.

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Thing.

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So there's some discipline, you know,

kids don't wanna do math homework either

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or, so there's some push from parents.

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It can get to an unhealthy level

sometimes, you know, like with,

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you know, with real hot housing

and especially, you know, when

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there's, when there's scholarships

on the line to schools like this.

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I'll tell you what, something

that I'm kind of proud of is that.

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We do have schools, students with

that sort of a background that have

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been, you know, made to practice there

'cause of the opportunity of getting

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scholarships and that sort of thing.

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And what I find here is that they

get to their end of the time and

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because of the atmosphere that we

have in the music department and the

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comradery and the joy of making music,

they don't hate what they're doing.

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Like that's a big plus when, you know,

as a matter of fact, I was talking to

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one of my year 12 IB students last.

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And what, two weeks ago when she

did just before they went on exams.

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And I was talking about that

'cause she's now pursuing a career.

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A couple of years ago she wanted to

be a banker and wanted to go into that

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industry and I spoke to her about it.

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And you know, like that whole thing about

apartment, she really still enjoys making

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music and wants to do that as a career.

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And actually I was like getting a bit

choked up thinking, you know, like that

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we've done that for someone with music,

which 'cause obviously naturally I love.

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You know, so yeah, it's a delicate area.

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You know, parents know their children

and they have desires for them.

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I think that some level of making

them do it is a healthy thing.

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I think it can have its limits.

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You know, we're here to support the kids.

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Whichever way, whatever's

happening at home.

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Anthony Perl: It was a lovely story and,

and I know what you mean about, it's

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when you have a teachers that make a big

influence on you, and particularly when

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it's around music, I think, because music

just has that way of giving out as well.

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So it's a wonderful thing to have

students that feel that way about

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a program that you're involved

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Trevor Mees: in.

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Well, you know, music can, and the

thing about music is that it can say

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things that words won't ever get to.

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You know, so that's where the

real power lies, you know?

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And you see kids switch on

to that and that's a buzz.

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Yeah.

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Anthony Perl: Well, just to wrap

things up and it's a good way to

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finish it based on what you're saying.

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Where I want to ask everyone who

appears on the podcast this question,

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dare to be more in terms of the music

program and what you look after.

378

What does Dare to be more mean?

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Trevor Mees: Well, I think when I came

to like MLCI didn't really know what dare

380

to be more meant, um, that teaching, like

teaching girls and coming from a boys

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school where they do so many fine things.

382

I found girls like oftentimes if I take

it to a classroom example, if you went

383

to a boys school and they're working

on a composition, they're quite happy

384

to show you wherever it is at and.

385

But girls have a bit of a

perfectionist idea about them.

386

You know, like where it's, oh, it's

not ready yet, sir, and I can hang on.

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I'll finish it this weekend

and can I show you next week?

388

And they're hesitant.

389

And then when you see what they're

doing, they're really doing

390

things at such a fine level.

391

So dare to be more, to me, a

little bit means that dare to show

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people what you're capable of.

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Which I think for girls' education is

like, you know, I, I really think that

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they, they benefit from that as a motto.

395

So that's probably, I think the, you know,

dare to be more is the best thing about

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that, that saying that that's or slogan

or, you know, thing that, label that,

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that we have out there in the community.

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MLC does help your, to

encourage girls to, yeah.

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Step up and have a go.

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Anthony Perl: Yeah.

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Fantastic.

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Thank you so much.

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The program sounds amazing, and

all we can do is encourage anyone

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who's listening into this program to

get involved in the music program.

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Yes, please.

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Live.

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I

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Trevor Mees: have 185 girls on the choir

role at the moment, and if I have to go

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over and see the sport department and you

know, see if we can have rehearsals in the

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gym because like there's more than that.

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Give me that problem.

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Yeah.

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And I will, I can promise that you'll love

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Anthony Perl: what we do.

415

Thank you for joining

us on Dare To Be More.

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If you enjoyed this episode, please

subscribe wherever you get your

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podcast so you never miss an episode.

418

Your likes and comments also

help more families discover

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these valuable conversations.

420

For more information about MLC School

and their approach to girls' education.

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Visit their website@mlcsid.nsw.edu.au.

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Check out the show notes

for more information.

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The Dare To Be More Podcast is

produced by podcast done for you.

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I'm your host, Anthony Pearl,

and we invite you to join us next

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time as we continue to explore

what it means to dare to be more.