Wild World S2E13 - Watching Whales in Southeast Alaska with Heidi Pearson

Alaska is a place of superlatives. It’s by far the largest state in the US. It’s home to the highest mountain in North America, and more than 27,000 glaciers. In the winter, it gets dark and cold– the record low was -80 degrees Fahrenheit. 

But because Alaska is so big, there’s a big difference between regions. While the far North extends well into the Arctic Circle and is home to polar bears and caribou, and its southern end, Alaska has a much milder climate. Southeast Alaska, which extends along the Western edge of the Canadian province of British Columbia, has dramatic coastlines carved by glaciers where mountains covered in dense forest plunge down toward the sea. This is a land where brown bears hunt for salmon making their way upriver to spawn, as bald eagles soar overhead. There are also over a thousand islands, ranging in size from just a few rocks to as much as 90 miles long. The Pacific Ocean winds its way from north to south, forming a marine maze known as the Inside Passage.

The waters off the coast of southeast Alaska are some of the best places in the world to see whales. Whale watching has become a big business, drawing hundreds of thousands of tourists each year. But it’s also a pretty ideal place to be a biologist that studies whales.

And that’s exactly what brought our guest here. Dr. Heidi Pearson is Professor of Marine Biology at the University of Alaska Southeast in Juneau. She has a Bachelor's degree in Biological Anthropology and Anatomy, and Biology, from Duke University and a PhD in Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences from Texas A&M University.

This episode of Wild World was produced by 3WireCreative with support from the Rice Alumni Traveling Owls and National Geographic-Lindblad Expeditions

The Rice Alumni Traveling Owls program offers exciting intellectual itineraries to destinations across the globe. Traveling Owls trips serve as a catalyst for lifelong learning and strengthen bonds between Rice University alumni and friends. But you don’t have to be a Rice alum to participate in Traveling Owls programs. I’ll be hosting a Traveling Owls trip to southeast Alaska in August 2026 on a tour organized by National Geographic-Lindblad Expeditions. We would love to have you join us! Visit alumni.rice.edu/travelingowls for all the details. You can also call (713)-34-TRIPS or email travelingowls@rice.edu to ask questions or sign up!

Help support this podcast and future episodes by checking out Autio, the perfect travel companion app for more engaging road trips. Autio is a network of stories, told by master storytellers like Kevin Costner, Phil Jackson, and John Lithgow, with the power to bring the landscape, its people, and its history alive as you pass through it. 

Mentioned in this episode:

Please check out our affiliate link for AUTIO!

Autio is a network of stories, told by master storytellers like Kevin Costner, Phil Jackson, and John Lithgow, with the power to bring the landscape, its people, and its history alive as you pass through it. Professionally edited and narrated, the audio vignettes combine to paint a picture you’re unlikely to get from a history book or visitor’s guide.

Autio

Traveling Owls trip to southeast Alaska in August 2026 on a tour organized by National Geographic-Lindblad Expeditions

The Rice Alumni Traveling Owls program offers exciting intellectual itineraries to destinations across the globe. Traveling Owls trips serve as a catalyst for lifelong learning and strengthen bonds between Rice University alumni and friends. But you don’t have to be a Rice alum to participate in Traveling Owls programs. I’ll be hosting a Traveling Owls trip to southeast Alaska in August 2026 on a tour organized by National Geographic-Lindblad Expeditions. We would love to have you join us! Visit alumni.rice.edu/travelingowls for all the details. You can also call (713)-34-TRIPS or email travelingowls@rice.edu to ask questions or sign up!

Lindblad Expeditions

Traveling Owls trip to southeast Alaska in August 2026 on a tour organized by National Geographic-Lindblad Expeditions

The Rice Alumni Traveling Owls program offers exciting intellectual itineraries to destinations across the globe. Traveling Owls trips serve as a catalyst for lifelong learning and strengthen bonds between Rice University alumni and friends. But you don’t have to be a Rice alum to participate in Traveling Owls programs. I’ll be hosting a Traveling Owls trip to southeast Alaska in August 2026 on a tour organized by National Geographic-Lindblad Expeditions. We would love to have you join us! Visit alumni.rice.edu/travelingowls for all the details. You can also call (713)-34-TRIPS or email travelingowls@rice.edu to ask questions or sign up!

Lindblad Expeditions

Traveling Owls trip to southeast Alaska in August 2026 on a tour organized by National Geographic-Lindblad Expeditions

The Rice Alumni Traveling Owls program offers exciting intellectual itineraries to destinations across the globe. Traveling Owls trips serve as a catalyst for lifelong learning and strengthen bonds between Rice University alumni and friends. But you don’t have to be a Rice alum to participate in Traveling Owls programs. I’ll be hosting a Traveling Owls trip to southeast Alaska in August 2026 on a tour organized by National Geographic-Lindblad Expeditions. We would love to have you join us! Visit alumni.rice.edu/travelingowls for all the details. You can also call (713)-34-TRIPS or email travelingowls@rice.edu to ask questions or sign up!

Lindblad Expeditions

Traveling Owls trip to southeast Alaska in August 2026 on a tour organized by National Geographic-Lindblad Expeditions

The Rice Alumni Traveling Owls program offers exciting intellectual itineraries to destinations across the globe. Traveling Owls trips serve as a catalyst for lifelong learning and strengthen bonds between Rice University alumni and friends. But you don’t have to be a Rice alum to participate in Traveling Owls programs. I’ll be hosting a Traveling Owls trip to southeast Alaska in August 2026 on a tour organized by National Geographic-Lindblad Expeditions. We would love to have you join us! Visit alumni.rice.edu/travelingowls for all the details. You can also call (713)-34-TRIPS or email travelingowls@rice.edu to ask questions or sign up!

Lindblad Expeditions

WildWorld_Alaska_final01

Yet because whales live in the ocean and spend much of their lives far below the water's surface, it can be hard for marine biologists to study them. That means there's still a lot we don't know about whales.

Heidi: Oh my gosh. No one's ever asked me about whale lice before, so this is so exciting.

Scott: Yes. All right, good.

Woo,

Scott: this is Wild World. I'm Scott Solomon. In this episode, we're heading to a place that's Paradise for Whales and Whale Biologists. Alaska is a place of superlatives. It is by far the largest state in the us. It's home to the highest mountain in North America and more than 27,000 glaciers in the winter. It gets dark and cold.

This is a land where brown bears hunt for salmon making their way up river to spawn as bald eagles soar overhead. There are also over a thousand islands ranging in size from just a few rocks to as much as 90 miles long. The Pacific Ocean winds its way from north to south, forming a marine maze known as the inside passage.

Dr. Heidi Pearson is Professor of Marine Biology at the University of Alaska Southeast in Juno. She has a bachelor's degree in biological anthropology and anatomy and biology from Duke University and a PhD in Wildlife and Fishery Sciences from Texas a and m University. Heidi Pearson. Welcome to Wild World.

Thanks for having me. So you right now are in a Juno, Alaska, right? And you're, you're in a studio, but could you maybe give us a, a little bit of a sense, like if you looked out a window or stepped outside, what, what does it look like today in Juno? I.

Heidi: Today in Juno is what I call a Juno day. It is overcast.

Scott: So I've been to Juno once many years ago. I'll actually be back in Alaska in 2026, which I'm very excited about. But I remember Juno as being this kind of small town, but really kind of vibrant and really, really beautiful. Like, I mean, it's on the water, right? It's in southeast Alaska. There's mountains around, I think there's a glacier nearby.

Is that right?

We have a lot of federal agencies here. Of course at the Capitol, there's a lot going on. We have the Coast Guard, and then we have this immense natural environment, which attracts a lot of researchers from around the world, including myself, and we are landlocked, so to speak. So we live in this narrow.

Strip of of land, which on one side you have the Pacific Ocean that's on the west side. On the east side you have steep mountains that end up in the Juno ice field, and there is one main road in town, and then it literally ends at the north and the northern and southern boundaries, it just ends in the rainforest.

So to get to Juneau, you either have to come by airplane or ferry or boat. Yeah, I think.

Scott: From what I remember, Juno has the distinction of being the only US state capital that you can't get to by road. Is that right?

Heidi: Yes, that is correct.

Now you mentioned rainforest. So for for listeners that aren't familiar, they might be surprised to hear you talk about a rainforest in Alaska, but this is not a tropical rainforest. Right. Tell us a little bit about what a, what a temperate rainforest in Southeast Alaska is like.

Heidi: Yes, and you're absolutely correct.

You know, a lot of people think rainforests are only in the tropics, but we are in a temperate rainforest. It's called the Tonga National Rainforest. It's the largest temperate rainforest in the world. It starts just north of like the Seattle, Washington area, and extends all the way up along British Columbia into southeast Alaska.

And it has everything you might think of with a tropical rainforest, except it's much cooler. But we get. Lots of rain each year. It's over a hundred inches of rain. I don't, I don't know to be exact, but it's certainly a lot of rain.

Scott: It's a lot of rain. A lot rain. Yeah. That's a lot. But

Heidi: then we turn into a snow forest in the wintertime.

So I've come to really like that. Anyway, so there's a lot of cool plans and of course animals in the temperate rainforest.

Scott: And I guess, I think when I think about those, those temperate rainforests, I'm, I'm sort of picturing like a lot of ferns and like dense mats of moss, like just moss everywhere.

Heidi: Yes.

And we call that dense moss. When it's on the ground, we call it muskeg. Mm. And it's spongy. Like we all wear extra tufts, you know, those really ugly brown rubber boots. And those are great for walking through the spongy muskeg because it's very soft, but then it's also very moist. Also.

How, how cold does it get actually in the winter, in, in Juneau?

Heidi: In Juno, we actually have a pretty mild climate. So I grew up in Iowa, you know, the Midwestern plains and the winters that I grew up with are much more severe than we have here in Juno. So we are, we're right on the Pacific Ocean and, you know, being a huge mass of, of water, oceans help to moderate temperature so we don't get too hot or, or too cool.

I would say in the wintertime we have about two weeks maybe where we are in like the single digits, maybe even below zero. So we get a cold snap. But otherwise our, our winters can be in the twenties and thirties. We oscillate right around freezing quite a bit.

Scott: And how about the darkness? So that's another kind of famous thing that people think about with Alaska is kind of a long stretch where, where it really doesn't get light.

Heidi: It does, but not to the extreme that some of my colleagues up in Fairbanks or even up in Vic, formerly known as Barrow, you know, so our shortest day of the year on the winter solstice, we probably have about six hours of daylight, which is, which is decent, you know, and on the flip side of that, we're coming to the summer solstice now, where we're gonna have about 18 hours of daylight.

But I will say that because we have so much cloud cover and precipitation, oftentimes I feel like my colleagues in Fairbanks actually get more light than we do in the winter, because they don't have all the clouds that we do. So the clouds really have a, a moderating effect on everything.

Scott: Do those clouds mean that you don't get to see the Northern Lights?

Scott: That's definitely one of my life goals. I still have not had a chance to see the Aurora, so one of these days I'm gonna hopefully get, get that opportunity. It sounds really amazing.

Heidi: Yeah, it's definitely worth it.

Scott: So what about Southeast Alaska more generally? Do you have any kind of favorite places that you've been in, you know, outside of Juneau, in, in Southeast Alaska more generally?

Heidi: You know, one of my other favorite towns in Southeast Alaska is Sitka. Sitka is on the outer coast. So Juno, we're in the inside passage. You know, we are, we're not on the, the open ocean, but Sitka is, so, it is, is west of, of Juno a little bit, and it's on an island, but it's, it's, it's exposed to the Pacific Ocean and it is a beautiful little town because it has that open ocean exposure and it also has a very nice art scene.

Scott: I'm right there with you.

Yes. That was your favorite show of mine as well. Yep.

Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. So I kind of think of Sitka as being kind of close to that fictional northern exposure town. So I'd say that's my, one of my favorite spots in Southeast.

Scott: That's awesome. That definitely paints a, a very vivid picture for, for me at least, and knowing, knowing that that reference to that show.

So, so you mentioned that you're, you're originally from Iowa. I'm also actually a mid-westerner. I grew up in Illinois, so not, not far from where you grew up. Tell me a little bit about how you got from Iowa to Alaska. What, what was your kind of career pathway? Did you, did you always want to be in Alaska and study whale and, and other marine mammals or, or, you know, what were you interested in when you were young?

And we had our own saltwater aquariums to take care of. A central part of the course was we all got SCUBA certified and we went to the Florida Keys over spring break and went diving and snorkeling and sailing and That's amazing.

Scott: What a cool class.

Heidi: It, it, it is and it still exists today. And so that was really my first introduction to marine biology.

And then in grad school, just how things turned out. I got into a a marine ology graduate program. I went to Texas a and m, and from there I went to Gloucester, Massachusetts. I worked with a small nonprofit for a couple years, and then got into academia and long story short, landed at University of Alaska Southeast in 2011.

Scott: Very cool. And from what I understand, you did your PhD research on dolphins, but dolphins not in, in, in North America, but actually down in New Zealand, if I'm not mistaken. Is that right?

Heidi: That's right. I studied the Dusky Dolphins on the south island of New Zealand, and in fact, I just returned from my field site there in April.

Scott: So you are combining topics that we have covered in a variety of different episodes. This season in Wild World actually, because we had an episode. About lemurs in Madagascar, we had one about primate behavior with chimpanzees and Senegal, and then most recently we actually did an episode about New Zealand, but we were focused on the, on the birds.

So maybe you could just very briefly tell us a little bit about dusky dolphins and what makes them interesting and special.

Heidi: Yes. Well, they are a smaller dolphin. They are maybe six feet in length. They have this beautiful like gray and white pattern on them, which I guess is why they're called the dusky.

So Dusky dolphins, they're very gregarious and social. At one of the places where I study them off kaira, they occur in large groups regularly of 200 to 300 individuals, sometimes more.

Scott: Wow.

Heidi: And one of the things that we, we do just on a basic level is we do photo identification. So we take photos of distinctive markings, which for them is their dorsal fin.

Some of them even move to different habitats in different times of year. And then another thing, they're just really fun to watch. They're called the acrobats of the sea. They are very acrobatic dolphin. They do all kinds of leaps and somersaults and flips for communication, for mating displays, probably just for fun.

And when we were there in New Zealand, my small research team was my husband who does a lot of work with me and then my five-year-old daughter. And we were on this small open skiff and we would always joke that the dusky dolphins were purposefully coming up to our boat and leaping and splashing us.

'cause we would get wet all the time. 'cause they're just, they're just so playful. And so they're, they're really intriguing for their social complexity, but they're also just a lot of fun.

You are listening to Wild World. I'm Scott Solomon and I'm speaking with marine biologist Heidi Pearson.

Like they're leaping outta the ocean. They're doing, you know, slapping their fins and different things like that. Am I right that they're kind of playful or am am I totally misinterpreting the behavior of these whales?

Heidi: No, you're right. And I, I agree. I think humpback whales are, they're probably the most animated baline whale, you know?

So we have the tooth whale just have teeth like dolphins, and then humpback whales have baline instead of teeth. We call them baline whales. They're the largest whales. And yeah, they are, they are more, we call surface active, more playful, and they're more social. So we think than other whale species. And that is an intriguing, thi intriguing thing for me, you know, when studying them.

Scott: And I know that, you know, they are also famous for having these complex calls and, you know. This is one of those things where like, I feel like, you know, we see studies that come out every now and then about like, you know, some, some new discovery about how humpback whales are using their calls or the way they're spreading.

How much do we really understand the, the, the calls of, of humpback whales?

Heidi: I think we're still at the tip of the iceberg. So, you know, for all citations, whales and dolphins, hearing is their dominant scent. So it makes sense that that is a way that they communicate. And for humpback whales, their elaborate song has been studied for decades.

They do pro produce what we call social sounds when they're bubble nut feeding. When you'll have a group of, you know, 10 to up to 20 humpback whales working together, blowing bubbles to corral herring. There's this really loud feeding call that will be produced by what we think is one member of the group, but we are still trying to unravel what all that means, especially on the feeding grounds.

Scott: Yeah, maybe you can talk a little bit more about that bubble net feeding. 'cause that, that's a fascinating behavior. I've, I've, you know, I've seen it sort of, you know, captured in, in, in nature documentaries and I've maybe seen a little bit of it myself in, in the Wild, but I wasn't quite sure. So like, I've seen them blowing bubbles and then coming up to the surface.

But tell us a little bit more about what bubble knit feeding is and, and how they do it.

And so we've learned more about this through underwater. Camera tags that have been put on whales in recent years. So it's usually one whale. You know, you have a group of say, 10 whales and they, they dive down. Usually one whale will start blowing bubbles outta their blowhole, these small bubbles, and then they will gradually swim around the outside of a large school of herring.

And then when you get to the surface, that actually acts like another barrier for the herring. 'cause of course it's air. And so at that point then the whales whale open their mouths and lunge feed, you know, through that herring, trapped in that bubble net. And I see it, you know, pretty often. But it, I still am amazed by it and it's, I think it's one of the most amazing.

Wildlife spectacles that we can view. 'cause you have, you know, this huge mass of, of whales and a pretty small space and it's just cooperative, intelligent behavior. It's just, it's really cool.

Scott: I mean, that's, that is amazing. It's, you know, they're coordinating their, their, their movements and they, like you've said, they figured out how to use bubbles as a tool.

Or they they can't or don't want to swim through the bubbles? Is that, is that right?

Heidi: Yeah, it probably elicits a fright response in the fish so that they cluster closer together. And then another thing. Is that we think it's one whale will produce this very, very loud feeding call. It's like an atonal sound.

It kind of sounds like a, a horn. Sometimes if it's really quiet we can hear it on the boat, on the above, the surface of the water. Wow. And so it's thought that a whale makes that really, really loud call to further frighten the fish. And it could be that if the fish would try to go through that, that bubble net, the sound would be louder so that the net combined with that sound causes them to school more tightly together.

Scott: Yeah, that's just amazing. I mean, I guess comparable in some ways to the way that like. Wolves hunt together in packs or lions, coordinate their, their hunting behaviors.

That's, are those, are those reasonable comparisons?

Heidi: They are, absolutely. And there is likely some division of labor where certain individuals do the same rule each time. I don't know that that's quite been worked out yet, but we know, for example, with wild African wild dogs, you know, they do have that division of labor.

It's likely that occurs in humpback whales too. But the cool thing is that they're also using a tool. Yeah. You know, so there's not many other wild animals that are cooperating like that and using a tool.

Scott: Absolutely. It's incredible. Wow. Well, let's talk about one of the other amazing whales that lives in, in southeast Alaska, the, the orcas or sometimes called killer whales.

Heidi: They are, they are. I mean, I will never doubt the intelligence of an orca, but I will say our perception of their intelligence is a bit skewed because they have been unfortunately held in captivity.

And so we've been able to perform different types of cognitive tests on them, observe them more closely as compared to say, a humpback whale or a sperm whale, which I would argue are probably just as quote unquote smart, but they just haven't been in captivity and able to be studied under human terms.

But yes, all that to say, orca are one of the, the most intelligent animals in my opinion.

Heidi: They do. And so in southeast Alaska, we have three different types, which are called ecotype, and they're not species. They're not even a subspecies. They're all. Orca or killer whale, but they have diverged into different body morphologies and they have different feeding strategies. They have different calls, and all of this we think is because of their possession of culture and shared knowledge that is passed down through generation, which has kind of separated the population up here in the Northeast Pacific into three different ecotype.

Well, they do get together in these super pods and mate them, mate them. Another interesting thing that's been revealed about these resident killer whales is that the, you know, they're, they're female led and the males of course are the more showy ones. 'cause they have the large dorsal fins, which can be like six feet tall.

But they are really mama's boys. They stay with their mom for life. And it's been found really interesting that if a male's mother dies, his chance of dying greatly increases.

Scott: Oh wow.

Heidi: So his longevity is, is linked to his mother's longevity.

Scott: Mm-hmm. What is it that she's doing to, to help him to live longer?

I think it's these, these matriarch, these older female killer whales that lead these resident pods that have the knowledge for the group to, to thrive and succeed.

Scott: And along those lines, I've read that orcas are some of the only other animals that are known to have menopause, which, as I understand it, is perhaps connected to the fact that the older females play such an important role in the social lives and, and, and in the lives more generally of those orcas.

They can also help in caregiving, which is a big thing as well. And you know, the more we study these complex citations, the more instances we're finding of menopause. So I know menopause has also been found in narwals and pilot whales, and there's probably one or two more I'm forgetting right now. But as these long-term studies continue, I think we will find more instances of menopause in citations.

Scott: Just so interesting. So, okay, so we've talked about humpback whales and orcas. What other types of whales can you find in a southeast Alaska?

Heidi: Well, at my study site near Juno, we also have two species of porus, which are a type of toothed whale. We have the dolls porus, and the harbor porus. They aren't as predictable in my study site, and they are.

They actually have a special adaptation in their heart to allow them to basically exercise at that high level. They love to bow ride, but they're really hard to get a photo of for photo ID because they're so fast. And then contrast that to the harbor purpose, which also occur in our study area. They're pretty small, they're cryptic and, but there's been a lot of attention paid to them lately for management because there's some evidence that they are caught at pretty high rates in bycatch, which is causing population declines in southeast Alaska.

So on that front, there's some more studies going on to try to figure out the population status. But yeah, so those are two other citations that occur in my study site.

Heidi: They do. You know, so they would be more common in the outer coast, like in the Sitka area mm-hmm.

That I mentioned. We have gray whales in Southeast Alaska as well, but again, they're more in the open ocean or coastal. One time in April we saw a juvenile gray whale in the Juno area. We have a sighting every once in a while of a sperm whale in the inside waters. I've never seen one in southeast Alaska, but as far as whales, you know, it's really those two porus species, humpback whales and killer whales that we have at my study site near Juno.

And then as you get further towards the. The open waters of the Pacific, you'll see a greater variety.

Welcome back. My guest is Dr. Heidi Pearson, a marine biologist who studies whales in southeast Alaska.

So how common is it to see a whale in southeast Alaska, like near Juno if you're, if you're out for a boat ride or if you're, you know, if you're out fishing or something like that. Is it like pretty likely that you'd see a whale? Is it a, a rare and unusual thing to see?

So I would say from. Early May in most years from early May through. Early October, you have almost a 100% chance of seeing a humpback whale in the waters near Juneau. They're only, the humpback whales are only up here during that time period, 'cause that's the feeding season. Otherwise, they migrate down to breeding grounds.

But then if we consider the other types of whales, like those two porous species and killer whales throughout the whole year, you still have a chance. I would say maybe if you, if you would go out every day, all year long, if you could do that with the weather. On average, even in the off season, you would probably see a porus or a killer whale on average about once a week.

So it's a pretty good place to be for seeing marine mammals.

So tell us a little bit about that research. Like how do you actually study that?

Heidi: Yeah, so I've been interested in this issue for quite some time. You know, Gino, the. The whale watching industry is directly tied to the cruise ship industry, which has been increasing steadily year after year. And so together with my graduate students over the past, it's been 10 years now, we have looked at this question in various ways, and the question is if and how does whale watching impact humpback whales?

And we did find that in the presence of whale watch boats, humpback whales tended to have shorter dive times, faster breath, right rates, and they changed direction more often, indicating a behavioral change. And then starting in 2020, we started trying to layer on is there a physiological response of humpback whales to whale watching.

Pandemic

Scott: mm-hmm.

Scott: That's very interesting. I mean, yeah.

'cause you would maybe otherwise not have a way of knowing like, well what would happen when there aren't any tourist boats around, whale watching boats around? 'cause presumably there're always around when there are whales around. So, yeah. So that's a clever way of, of taking advantage of the, of the pandemic, I guess.

So. So what did you find? Like what, what, what's the conclusion?

But it's such a big question that we wanna make sure when we put the results out, that we are a hundred percent can stand behind, behind it scientifically. But it's not just the, the stress that we're looking at. We're also looking at residency patterns. So how long do whales stay in Juneau? And you know.

When we didn't have a lot of vessels in Juno, were they staying longer than when tourism returned? And what we found was really, so far no difference that the whales that came to Juno were, were here no matter the the vessel traffic. One interesting thing we found though is that females tend to stay in Juneau longer than males.

Which I think is a really interesting finding because it means it's an important place for this v more vulnerable part of the population to be, especially if they're here with their calves. So it just speaks to the importance of this area for humpback whales.

And I'm imagining that there's, you know, not all whale watching is maybe done the same. Like maybe there are some, you know, some operators or boats that are really, really cautious and careful and maybe others a little bit less. So. Do you, do you see any evidence of that in your data? Is there like variation in the whale watching practices that maybe affects how the whales are responding?

Or maybe too soon to say.

Heidi: Yeah, that's a great question. And I'm just thinking back to the studies I've done, we haven't been able to collect data at that fine scale of resolution yet. What we have been able to collect data on is, you know, this blanket presence versus absence or number of boats. But as far as the boat behavior type of boat, I mean, we talked about all these kinds of variables, but we just haven't been able to tease all those out yet.

Scott: Yeah, that's good. I was gonna ask you about what kinds of protections are, are in place for, for whales in southeast Alaska?

Are there, I imagine there's probably others.

Heidi: That is the only law or regulation, well, part of that regulation is also that you're not to change the behavior of whales or cut off their path, but really that a 100 yard thing is the main one. And then there's other guidelines for best practice, like not staying with a whale for more than 30 minutes, giving moms and calves extra space.

But those are guidelines and they aren't laws.

Heidi: They have a few. And so in no particular order, I can say vessel strikes, fisheries, entanglements, climate change, and pollution, and that would include noise pollution. And we've seen evidence of all of those pretty readily apparent. You know, in the long-term study I've been doing of humpback whales here since 2013, we have good evidence of all of those risk factors impacting whales.

Scott: Yeah. And I know, you know, one of the things that your lab has, has really looked at is, is climate change, right? And the role of whales in sort of, you know, as, as sort of mediators as players in the, the, the carbon cycle, right? And, and, and you study something called blue carbon. So maybe you can explain what blue carbon is.

And so that's a topic I started getting interested in more fully when I was a Fulbright scholar to Norway in 2018. That was a focus of my work.

Scott: Very interesting. So, yeah, so, you know, whales are, are sort of part of the marine ecosystem and so they're part of, you know, everything that's going on with the role of, of oceans.

How important are oceans generally for, for climate change?

And so the planet would be a much hotter place without the ocean and the animals that live there.

Scott: Yeah, definitely. And, and what about whales? Sort of what is their, their heart in, in, you know, in that and giant cycle of, of, you know, carbon moving from, you know, the atmosphere to the ocean and back and forth.

How do, how do whales figure in.

Heidi: So they, they play important roles in both the nutrient and carbon cycling. And with my work, I look at both the nutrient cycling and carbon cycling roles of whales because they're intertwined. And so with the nutrient, I will say the nutrient cycling piece, we have a much better understanding of the carbon cycling piece.

And with that can come some increase in carbon cycling as some of that phytoplankton that otherwise wouldn't be there, can sink to the sea floor because phytoplankton is a, like a plant that absorbs CO2. So my lab has been working on that whale pump mechanism for some time, and then. We're trying to connect the dots to carbon cycling, which is much trickier.

But we know that whales, they do store and sequester carbon just by virtue of being really big. They can store a lot of carbon in their massive bodies for long periods of time. And then when they sink those carcasses, a lot of them sink to the sea floor where the carbon that was stored in their body now becomes sequestered at the sea floor.

Scott: Yeah. And what do you see as sort of the role of, of ecotourism in all of this? So, you know, sometimes there's a kind of a tension between people not wanting to, to have a negative impact on these wild places, you know, but then by going and getting to experience an amazing wild place and have an encounter with these incredible animals, perhaps people become more, more engaged, more motivated to want to, to have a positive impact.

Heidi: I do think about that a lot, and one of the previous studies I've done with students is we have surveyed passengers on whale watches in Juneau before and after their trip to try to gauge that. And we did find that whale watching had a positive impact on conservation and people's desire to have whale protection.

So there's definitely some positive impacts, you know, huge educational value as well. But that, that has to be balanced with impacts on the whales themselves. And then, you know, increased emissions. And I don't wanna deny anyone the chance to see a whale in the wild. You know, I saw a gray whale off the coast of Oregon for the first time.

Scott: So what are some things that people can do if they're, if they're thinking of, you know, visiting Southeast Alaska and they wanna make sure they're being responsible tourists and, and specifically with whales in mind, what are some things that they can do to make sure they can, they can visit, but be having, you know, a positive impact to the extent that's possible.

And also, what are some things that people can do more generally if they're, maybe, if they're not living in a place where there are whales, if they're not gonna be, you know, coming to southeast Alaska.

Heidi: Yeah, those are great questions. So, for seeing whales in Southeast Alaska, I would just encourage people to do their homework and look at the, the websites on the, the companies and see if they are part of the Whale Sense program, which is the responsible.

Another thing anyone can do in Southeast Alaska for free is there's lots of places you can see. Not just whales, but also seals and sea lions from shore. And yeah, there's some hotspots where you can just walk out on some of our beautiful trails and and see whales and humpback whales and sometimes killer whales from shore.

So just do your homework, I guess would be my advice for choosing a whale watch operator. And then everyone can help to protect the oceans. You know, even where I grew up in Iowa. All, all rivers lead to the ocean. And so just to make sure that you don't litter that, you cut those anything with a loop, you know, make sure and cut it, especially those plastic six pack rings.

And joining conservation organizations to help the cause. I mean, I could go on and on, but no matter where you live, you can do something to help the oceans.

Scott: In our final segment, I'll ask Heidi about something I've been dying to know about whales.

So you brought up some of the other marine mammals other than whales that, that occur in southeast Alaska. And I know you've done some work with sea otters, which are just, you know, these incredibly cute animals. Like people love to see sea otters, but they also like, have a really important, you know, role that they play in marine ecosystems.

Can, can you tell us a little bit about that?

Heidi: Yeah, so my first introduction to Alaska was my master's work. I studied sea otters in Prince William Sound and I studied the behavior of territorial males. And so I got to know a lot about their mating strategies and their reproductive behaviors. We identified sea otters based on scars on their noses, which was a lot of fun and challenging.

Scott: Wow.

Sea otters, one of their favorite. Prey items are sea urchins and sea urchins love to eat kelp. So if you have a lot of sea otters, the logic is that they depress the sea urchin population. There's fewer sea urchins mowing down these kelp forests, and you have more kelp

Scott: and kelp, and that's

Heidi: considered a healthy ecosystem.

Mm-hmm.

Right,

Heidi: right, right. So kelp is Yeah. A type of seaweed and. The, the kelp that we studied is called the canopy surface canopy kelp, like you described, like giant kelp. The biggest kelp will anchor to the sea floor and then it can grow to be 40 to 50 feet tall and like you say, creates these beautiful forests that provides lots of habitat for other animals.

And then if we're thinking about one of the big additional ecosystem benefits is that it's a plant and so it is absorbing carbon dioxide like trees on land. And so we didn't, in my study, we didn't quite get to that link to link sea Otter populations with kelp forest growth and the carbon link. But we know that through time as there were more sea otters in an area, it allowed, for the most part more kelp forest to grow

Is that right? Yes. Yes, exactly. It's a,

Heidi: it's called a trophic cascade. So it's this kind of, this cascade or waterfall effect, starting with the sea otters,

Scott: because you have like, basically like a, like a food chain or a food web, right? And like different trophic levels. That's where that term comes from, right?

Like going from the top, top predator down, the down, the sort of pyramid towards the, towards the base. This kind of cascading effect, I guess, right? Yes, exactly. And sea otters were, were, were hunted historically for, was it further fur? Is that, is that why they were hunted? Yes. Yes. I assume they're better protected these days.

And that practice still continues today, but it is only by the. Alaska natives.

Scott: And what about some of the other marine mammals in the area? Are there, are there sea lions or, or seals that are commonly found in southeast Alaska?

Heidi: Yes, we have harbor seals and stellar sea lions. And the stellar sea lions are an interesting case study because there, there's one population that stretches from Southeast Alaska all the way to the Aleutians and the part of the population in the western part of that range.

But we're pretty lucky in Southeast Alaska that most of our marine mammals are, are doing pretty well. You know, humpback whales, killer whales, stellar sea lions, Harbor seals, as far as I know, dolls porus, as far as I know, Harbor porus. You know, I mentioned maybe some interactions with fisheries, but overall, if you're a marine mammal, southeast, Alaska's a pretty good place to be.

Scott: I mean, that's fantastic to hear. That's definitely not something that you can say about marine mammals in, in all parts of the world.

Heidi: Right, right. Yeah, it's, it's a pretty special spot and. You know, it's, it's a very rich place for, for food, you know, the environment. It's just nutrient rich, these productive waters other than, you know, vessels and, and fisheries.

There's not a lot of human habitation here, you know, so, yeah, it's a, it's a pretty nice place to be.

Heidi: Oh, let me think. So I mentioned the Dusky Dolphin research. Well, I do collaborate with a nonprofit in the south of Portugal.

It's called aim. And I work with them on different aspects of their common dolphin. Research and some of the same questions that I've been interested in with the Dusky Dolphins. We are asking of the common dolphins about their social networks and social relationships. We've also done some really cool studies there using drones to look at mother calf relationships.

And then I'm very excited. I'll be going back there this fall. I got a Fulbright Scholar Award to Portugal, so I'll be there for the fall to work with AIM and University of Lisbon on a marine mammal management plan for a new marine protected area there. So I'm excited to get more involved in marine conservation with my upcoming time in Portugal.

Heidi: Thank you.

Scott: So I want to ask, 'cause I think you're doing a job that a lot of young people and people in general just think of as kind of a dream job, right? You're a, you're a marine biologist, you're studying these amazing marine mammals, whales, dolphins, otters, all of these very charismatic, amazing animals.

What advice do you have for people who are interested in marine biology and, and specifically marine mamm biology like you study? What advice do you have for people who might want to get involved in this kind of work?

Writing reports and applying for permits and analyzing data and doing all that stuff. Applying for grants. I also teach classes, and so I have many, many other things I do. Like the really cool flashy stuff is, yeah, five to 10% of my job, but that's what keeps me going. Yep. You know?

Scott: Okay. So I have to ask you a question that I've been dying to ask a whale biologist since I learned about this.

I am so curious about whale lice. Oh yes. Okay. Which apparently are not lice at all. But they're actually crustaceans. What is going on with whale? First of all, maybe you can just describe what these are and like I said, since I found out that this exists, I've just been like oddly fascinated with knowing more about them.

Scott: Hmm. So I guess you said they're parasites, so they're act, are they actually feeding off of the whale itself or are they consuming something like, I don't know, whales are often covered in barnacles. Are they, are they maybe picking off those barnacles? Like what are they, what, what are they actually doing?

Heidi: I think they are feeding on parts of the whale skin itself. Hmm. And, but I would have to look that up to be fully sure. Like I said, no one's asked me about whale lice before.

Scott: Yeah.

Heidi: But when I see them, it's actually on. The whale, like the bare skin of the whale. It's not on, say, a barnacle or something else attached to the whale.

Heidi: something. They can be on any part of the body. That is what I've seen.

Scott: Yeah. Very interesting. Well, thank you for helping me satisfy my, my curiosity about, about whale life.

I've been, I've been dying to ask someone. You're welcome.

Heidi: You're welcome.

Scott: Well, Heidi Pearson, thank you so much for, for sharing your knowledge about whales and the wonders of Southeast Alaska. And it's been just a delight to, to have you on and hear about your work.

Heidi: Well, thank you so much. Thanks for all the great questions.

I'm happy to be here. Woo.

You can listen to Wild World anywhere you get podcasts. Follow at Wild World Show on Social Media for updates and bonus content. This episode of Wild World was supported by the Rice alumni traveling Owls and by National Geographic, Lin Blood Expeditions Wild World is produced by Three Wire Creative.

That's it for this episode. Join me next time as we explore another part of our wild world.