In episode 63 of the Potential Leader Lab Podcast, we explore what role feedback from others plays in your evolution, and why is it essential to discern whose feedback to value.
🤔 Our Discussion 🤔
Throughout the episode, I emphasize the importance of feedback — discerning who to seek it from and how to filter it effectively. It's not about chasing everyone else's version of who we should be; rather, it's about carefully identifying and valuing the feedback that aligns with our goals.
We unpack the concept of being "antifragile," a term coined by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, which refers to systems or people that thrive and grow stronger through challenges and stressors.
This episode also touches on the existential aspects of our evolution, particularly in relation to others. We consider Jean-Paul Sartre's concept of "hell is other people" from his play "No Exit" to illustrate how others play a significant role in shaping our journey.
Perry Maughmer believes the world deserves better leadership; that in every human interaction there is the opportunity to either build others up or tear them down; and that leadership is the choice we make in those moments.
These beliefs led Perry to create the Potential Leader Lab. He wanted to offer those who share his beliefs the space and safety to explore transformative ideas, experiment with new behaviors, and evolve into the leaders they were meant to be and that the world needs.
This is a framework he has used again and again with his Vistage peer advisory groups and companies like Turn-Key Tunneling, Convergint, Haughn & Associates, I Am Boundless, Ketchum & Walton, LSP Technologies, and Ahlum & Arbor.
Perry lives and works on the shores of Buckeye Lake in Ohio, in the mountains of northwest Georgia, and on the beach in Anna Maria, Florida with his amazingly creative wife Lisa. They have 2 rescue dogs and are intermittently visited by their 3 wonderful children throughout the year. Perry & Lisa are living life in crescendo and focused on exploring, experimenting, and evolving their vision of a life they have no desire to retire from.
Copyright 2025 Perry Maughmer
Transcripts
Perry Maughmer [:
Welcome to the Potential Leader Lab. I'm your host, Perry Maughmer, and this is where we explore how to create a better world for those we care deeply about by dismantling our delusions and acting our way into a different way of being. And I welcome you to episode 63, your evolution is what others say it is. So, this will be central to explore experiment of all framework that we always talk about, and and I really in this one, we're gonna kinda talk about the myth of the self determined evolution. Why we think we control our own growth, but we actually don't. And the hard truth kind of is your evolution is dictated by the impact you have on others, not by what you think you have become. So, essentially, what I'm saying is on the explore experiment evolve framework, we wanna focus most of our own energy on exploring and experimenting because by and large, our evolution is determined by what we get back from other people. I mean, I I wanna be careful with this because as we go through this, you'll hear this, but there's a balance.
Perry Maughmer [:
And the balance is you wanna have a firm idea of what you're trying to accomplish from an evolutionary standpoint for yourself. But I just want us to be clear that it isn't up to us if we finally evolve to that point yet because most of those things, most of those behaviors we're gonna try, we are doing it to positively impact other people. So we have to get feedback from them to see if that's actually working or not. And so we can't do it in a vacuum. That's all I'm saying. I don't I don't want this to turn into a %. We are our self image is determined by other people. That's not what I'm talking about.
Perry Maughmer [:
What I'm talking about is being able to have a little bit of gray area and discernment for ourselves to know that if I'm working on specific behavior changes to elicit, to create that better world for other people and elicit different responses from people, then I have to be aware that how that lands matters, and what I intend doesn't. It does from my own deep down in my soul. But if I'm not effective, if it doesn't land correctly, I've gotta figure out a different way to do it. So that's that's really what we're talking about here. So there is a bit of nuance. This isn't a definitive, hey, you're only what other people say you are, because I'm gonna talk on a little bit about Sartre's book, in his play. One is his, play No Exit, but it's not that brutal. I'm just using it as an example.
Perry Maughmer [:
So, society, by and large, sells us the idea that self mastery and personal development is an individual journey. You know, you read all the books on what you need to do. It's always you, you know, it's self development. It's it's it we we we, you know, self help books. So we talk about ourself a lot. We talk about you. We talk about, you know, things we are gonna do differently. Much like organizations, it's always we we have to be careful and not do too much naval gazing here.
Perry Maughmer [:
Right? We can't be so focused on just us and what we want that we we don't include feedback from the outside. And, really, if you wanna think about this, we wanna build ourselves to be antifragile. And, Nassim Taleb wrote that book, Antifragile, and he talks about the difference between he says that you if something's fragile, it breaks easily. The opposite of fragile actually isn't strong because something that's strong resists shock. Right? So something strong resists shock, and he said, what you wanna be is antifragile, and antifragile people or systems or organizations actually benefit from shock. They benefit from things like stressors and volatility and mistakes and failures and faults. That's what that's what makes them stronger, much like our immune system. Our immune system is antifragile.
Perry Maughmer [:
The more it's tested, the stronger it gets. And so, if you think about this just conceptually, we don't we wanna get rid of the thought that we wanna be strong. We actually wanna be antifragile. And that's really where we go with this with this discussion is that constant thought of I'm gonna keep moving forward getting feedback. And and actually to use, you know, actually use another term that we're all familiar with in business is is an MVP, like a minimum viable product. If if you've ever read the book, The Lean Startup, by, I think it was Steve Blank and Eric Reese, they talk about an MVP, a minimum viable product. And one of the one of the pieces of that is one of the three components is enables feedback for future elements. And so, you you create something as a baseline.
Perry Maughmer [:
You get it out to get feedback on it and then you iterate as you go instead of spending months or maybe even years creating the quote unquote perfect product and then rolling it out only to find that your your study group or you and your partner or your company or whatever didn't take into account many things that the public actually wants in the product. And so then it's a huge failure. Their thought was get something that's workable, then throw it out there and let people let people give you feedback, actual feedback so you can iterate. Well, let's think about that for us because our identity isn't isn't really what we say it is. It's how other people experience us. So what if we looked at ourselves like a we wanted to act, like, treat ourselves as a product from a leader standpoint. Like, we're gonna create a leader that's they're gonna create better world for those we care about. So we have to gather those people because those are the ones we're talking about, by the way.
Perry Maughmer [:
We're not talking about everybody. You're gonna identify who these people are, people that whose whose feedback you value. And then, you're gonna put yourself out there as a minimum viable product and say, okay, this is where I'm starting. And then, as you gather feedback, then you can iterate. Right? That that takes if you shift it's just interesting how if you shift into that mindset and you become your leadership becomes a product, now it's something outside of us that we can work on. It isn't it isn't a judgment against us. So we have to shift our focus from internal self assessment to external impact. So we take that we take that from, you know, constantly the voice in our head, like, constantly listen to the voice in our head, which by the way, if if it was a person, we wouldn't be friends with it very long.
Perry Maughmer [:
So we gotta be careful. Right? So shift from that to external impact. Shift from self assessment, internal self assessment to external impact. Because I'll give you an example. Like, you might say, I wanna I wanna become more patient. Right? And you you say to yourself, oh, I'm being more patient with all these people. But what if the people closest to you don't notice anything about you being more patient? Have you actually become more patient just because you tend to think that you're being more patient because by the way, we're fairly myopic. We don't we don't really, know ourselves very well.
Perry Maughmer [:
And self awareness, there's a couple components to it. One is we know who we are, and the second is that we know how we're perceived by others. And we can have both types. We can have neither or we can have one or, you know, one of them. And so we have to be very careful that oftentimes who we feel we are is not how we're perceived by other people. And and our evolution is truly validated by the echo we create in other people, not the monologue in your own head. So, again, we have to shift outside that monologue that's going on in our head about how well we're doing or who we are or impact. What we really wanna evaluate it by, it's it's really validated by the echo we create in other people.
Perry Maughmer [:
You know, what what do we hear back? When we put this out, what comes back? That's what we have to pay attention to. And, again, we're I I wanna be clear. I don't want everybody, like, chasing this. We're not trying to chase other people's versions of us. That's that's not what I'm talking about. We need a great deal of discernment in this process because what I'm talking about is is filtering feedback. So you have to be very explicit for yourself as to who that feedback's gonna come from and who you want it from and how you value it. Right? You have to discern these things.
Perry Maughmer [:
This isn't just like you're throwing it out to the world and then and then taking it all in. I, the best example I can give you this is like a three sixty assessment. And I wanna I had a great coach tell me one time about how do I how do I process this. And so they were going over the three sixty with me, and there were a bunch of comments. You know, there there were there was both quantitative and qualitative feedback for me. Well, some of the qualitative feedback were, you know, people had written down. Well, this is what I think period is stop doing, start doing, you know, that kind of stuff. And, she gave me this.
Perry Maughmer [:
It stuck with me. It was years ago and it just stuck with me. She said, I want you to get a red, yellow, and green highlighter, and I want you to highlight the stuff in green that you wanna take action on, highlight the stuff in yellow that you wanna think about, and highlight the stuff in red that you're gonna ignore. And I thought that was so that was so liberating because she said, it's just feedback. You don't have to act on all of it. And that's really important that we understand that. Just because people give us feedback does not mean we have to act on it. Right? We have to decide, does it align with what we want most? Does it because they don't know that.
Perry Maughmer [:
They may not know us they may not know what we're trying to accomplish as much as we do. So again, this isn't an all or nothing thing. There's a lot of gray area here that requires a lot of discernment. Alright? So let's talk about this model in action. So we have explore. This is where curiosity is and are you exploring to expand yourself or serve others? So, ask yourself that question. Am I am I trying to expand myself or serve other people? And if I'm doing, hopefully, what I'm doing is doing the first to do the second. So you just wanna be able to connect those things.
Perry Maughmer [:
So you just wanna be able to tie in my expanding of myself in service to other people. Now, my experimentation, remember, everything that I do, every action that I take lands somewhere. And and this experiment doesn't mean anything if no one else experiences that outcome. I have to be in the moment. Like, it's very hard. I gotta be honest with you. You know, the great thing about finite games, the great thing about playing a sport or all these things is that they spend or great golfers or even even, military operations or any of those things. They they practice 90% of the time so that the five to 10% of the time they perform, it is it is dead on.
Perry Maughmer [:
Right? The reason that that a great golfer can hit that shot out of a out of a sand trap is because they've hit it thousands of times. So when they when they get in there and they they have to do it for real, it's automatic. We often don't get that option because we can't do the work we're talking about in a vacuum. We can't do it in a in what I'll call a safe environment. We can't do it in a kind environment. We have to do it in the moment. We have to practice as we play. And that's that takes a different kind of a different kind of emotional commitment.
Perry Maughmer [:
We all know that. Right? We the only way we can test a new behavior and see if it lands correctly is to try it with people. And when it doesn't land, we have to figure a way out of it in the moment. We can't say, well, that was an experiment. Sorry about that. I mean, well, actually, you can. I guess, now that I think about it, you can't say that. If you're really comfortable and confident, you can say that.
Perry Maughmer [:
And then the true evolution happens when people around you respond differently to you. The shift in their perception proves your growth. I want you to think about that. The minute you see that shift in them, the minute they start responding to you differently, that's evolution for you. That's meaningful progress. When you've created that shift for them. We always say, the relentless few. Right? It's it's the easiest way to change other people's behaviors to change our own.
Perry Maughmer [:
If I focus on me and changing my behavior, I can elicit a different response in people. If I if all I'm doing as a leader is trying to is focused on changing other people's behavior, like, I'm trying to make other people behave differently, that's a losing battle and not when you wanna fight, to be honest with you. It's not very fun for you or for them. Now, the tie in to the relentless view on this, which is, you know, what I like is that we're all broken. So our evolution is never complete. It's always, you know, it's go back to Kintsugi and the repairing of the pottery with the gold dust and the lacquer. We're all we're all breaking all the time and putting ourselves back together, breaking and put our putting ourselves back together. I mean, Hemingway said, and I love this quote, the world breaks everyone and afterwards, many are stronger at the broken places, but those that will not break, it kills.
Perry Maughmer [:
And so, we will break. There's no there's no shame in breaking. There's no problem with breaking. We actually then get repaired, and we're stronger at the broken spot. Like, we're we repair ourselves constantly and put ourselves back together. So it's okay. It's okay to feel broken because we are. And the impact we have on other people is a constant feedback loop, and it's our responsibility to keep that loop open.
Perry Maughmer [:
Like, we have to welcome that in. We always have to create a feedback loop for people. We have to make it comfortable for people to give us feedback. And, again, I wanna be clear. Red, yellow, green highlighters. Just because somebody's telling you something doesn't mean you have to do something with it. You still have to discern if that fits and matches. Now I'm not saying discard things you don't like to hear.
Perry Maughmer [:
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is make sure that even if it stings a little bit, is it meaningful to you? Does it connect with where you're trying to go? So remember, it's not by what you believe in yourself, but how you've experienced how other people experience you differently that you measure your evolution. Hopefully, those two things match. Hopefully, when you see that they're experiencing you differently, it matches what you believe about yourself. I'm not saying one is definitively more important than the other. I'm saying you need both. You can't you can't just do one or the other. Those two things have to have to come back together.
Perry Maughmer [:
Now, we're gonna briefly touch on the existential weight of this. Right? Because in existentialism, we think there are four ways that we experience the world. One is subjective, is our own subjective experience of the world, you know, phenomenologically that's all we can do is our own lived experience. Then we experience ourselves in relationship with others, then we experience the connection with physical environment and also with the spiritual and ideal world that we have. But I wanna focus on number two, which is our our experience with other people. Because if you think about this long before a mirror was invented, our reflection was other people. Like, that's how we got a reflection of ourselves was from others. And so when you really truly think about this, when you think about Sartre in his in his play, No Exit, the message there was the power that other people have to deny our autonomy.
Perry Maughmer [:
You know, the the phrase that came out of that out of that one act play was hell is other people. And I and there's a real deep meaning to that, but we have to understand that evolution is not an internal process, but an external revelation. Right? It's not an internal process. It's an external revelation. We work on the process, but that doesn't matter. What matters is the external revelation. And the the hardest thing we have to be cognizant of this as well for other people. The hardest thing in the evolution process is those that are close to us allowing us to evolve.
Perry Maughmer [:
Because we all categorize each other. We all kind of put people in a bucket. You know, we we we're used to people that we know that are close to us. You know, we're those that we care deeply about. They have a version of us in their mind, so they're expecting certain things from us. What we're talking about is breaking that connection and saying, no. That's not what I'm that's not what I'm about anymore. I'm about this.
Perry Maughmer [:
You're gonna get this behavior from me, not this that you're used to. The hardest thing in that process is for them to actually recognize that behavior change. That's why you have to have the intestinal fortitude to do it over and over and over again. And you in doing it once, isn't gonna get you a pat on the back? Just accept this. Right? We're talking about long we're talking about sustained behavioral change. It may take you months before they recognize and think that it's gonna stick. So that's why you have to have both the internal motor to do it, and then understand that it's the it's the external piece that shows up that makes a difference. It's the external revelation that makes the difference.
Perry Maughmer [:
Your internal process is really important, but that external revelation matters. It's how they it's how they experience you that matters. It isn't about I'm sad to say, but it isn't about what you wish to be. It's about what actually happens when you engage in the world. What what mark do you leave? And remember, way back, I've said it multiple episodes, what we're trying to do is leave the world better than we found it. We're trying to leave folks built up, not tore down from an interaction with us. Do I feel better or worse than I did before I interacted with you? Very rarely, on very rare occasions, probably less than 5% of the time, does somebody go, I feel about the same. I'm either feeling better or I'm feeling worse walking away from this interaction.
Perry Maughmer [:
So which do you want it to be? That's what we're talking about here. So remember, you can't you cannot declare yourself evolved. Only those people that are impacted by you can say that. And then how do you wanna test it? Well, you ask those people around you, have have I evolved? So here's the challenge. Find one person this week. Find one person and ask them, what's different about me from six months ago? Now, be ready for the truth, their version of the truth. Because, again, they're gonna give you the one person's version of their experience with you. That's why you want multiple.
Perry Maughmer [:
That's why in a three sixty, you ask multiple people. Right? Because when you ask 25 people that question and you get responses, you wanna pay attention to the ones where there's where there's repetition. Right? If there's an outlier, it's called an outlier for a reason. You you can you can think about it. You can you can ponder it, but you may not take it to heart. But if you ask 25 people, do you notice anything that's changed about me in the last six months? And you gather those responses, look for things, look for repetition, look for things that that show up over and over and over again. That's why you don't just want one person giving you feedback because, again, all they can tell you is their lived experience with you. That's all you can expect, and and it's truthful because it's theirs.
Perry Maughmer [:
That's why it's so awesome when you get 20 people because they're all giving you their lived experience with you. And if you see a commonality, then you can take that as something to work with. So, remember, go out and find one person to talk to, and just ask them. And then, write this stuff down. Then, ask another person. And and always make sure, remember, you want these feedback loops to be open. You wanna establish and one of the things we don't do very well as we don't tell people how we like feedback because we wanna frame it and you wanna ask them a specific question. In fact, you could ask a different question if you say, have you noticed that I've become more patient? Have or you can say, have I become more patient with you? Do have you experienced me differently? Ask them specifically.
Perry Maughmer [:
Try to avoid the open ended questions because it's hard to imagine what you'll get back. But if you're working on two or three things, ask them about those things. Get feedback specifically on those things. So here's the thing. You're never gonna know unless you ask, and you wanna establish that feedback, and you wanna have a positive response to the feedback. Because if they don't get a positive response to the feedback, they're not gonna offer it next time, and and it will sting. We all know this. Right? It ever all the feedback stings initially.
Perry Maughmer [:
We want it. We value it, but but it doesn't feel good when people give us honest feedback about how our behavior touches them, how they experience us. That's okay because we're all just trying to get better. Right? We're not trying to be perfect. We're not trying to be the best. We're just trying to get better. We're trying to be better versions of ourselves every day. So, if you're ready to stop waiting and start doing, you're obviously in the right place.
Perry Maughmer [:
Keep questioning, keep pushing, and remember, growth isn't comfortable, but ultimately, comfort just wants you dead anyway. So I'll see you the next time in the Potential Leader Lab.
