Welcome to another episode of Late Boomers! We’re your hosts, Cathy Worthington and Merry Elkins, and we’re thrilled you’re joining us on this journey of reinvention, connection, and growth at every stage of life.

In this episode, we dive deep into the foundations of thriving, lasting relationships with our insightful guests, Bruce Chalmer and Judy Alexander, co-hosts of the “Couples Therapy in Seven Words” podcast. Bruce Chalmer, an experienced couples therapist and author of several books including “The Passion Paradox,” joins us alongside Judy Alexander, retired educator, author, and “the real person” on their podcast. Together, they blend wisdom from decades of helping couples and add a generous dose of real-world humor and humanity.

We explore everything from surviving betrayal, rekindling passion, and navigating intimacy in long-term relationships, to how faith, kindness, and a willingness to face uncomfortable truths can help couples not just survive challenges but come out even stronger.

Key Takeaways

• Forgiveness After Betrayal: Bruce Chalmer reminds us that healing from betrayal is possible, but it’s not guaranteed or easy it requires immense courage and honest engagement (02:35).
• Betrayal Beyond Infidelity: Betrayal in relationships isn’t just about sex it can involve finances, addiction, and emotional wounds between friends, siblings, and partners (03:26).
• The Truth About Communication: Most relationship issues aren't really about how we communicate; they’re about what we’re communicating hurt, mistrust, or contempt (05:41).
• The Seven-Word Formula: “Be kind, don’t panic, and have faith.” This powerful mantra underpins lasting relationships and guides partners through life’s inevitable obstacles (04:35, 26:45).
• Stability vs. Intimacy: All couples need both stability (reliability, predictability) and intimacy (honesty, aliveness) but these can sometimes feel at odds. The key is learning to tolerate anxiety and embrace honest vulnerability (12:27).
• Practical Tools for Rekindling Connection: Emotional openness, respect, and humor matter. Judy Alexander also shares her unique creative journey into biblical erotica, showing that reinvention can spice up relationships at any age (20:36).
• Sacred, Good, and Plain Old Sex: The distinctions between different kinds of sexual experiences as relationships mature, good sex adds intimacy; sacred sex adds meaning and connection to something bigger (35:09).
• Sexual Fulfillment at Any Age: True sexual and emotional connection often reaches its peak in our 60s and 70s, thanks to maturity, communication, and creativity not just hormones or acrobatics (42:03).

We hope you found today’s episode as inspiring and practical as we did! If you enjoyed this conversation, please share it with one friend who could use a dose of hope, humor, and wisdom in their relationships. Don’t forget to subscribe to Late Boomers wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode.

For more from Bruce Chalmer and Judy Alexander, check out their podcast “Couples Therapy in Seven Words,” Bruce’s website, or Judy’s book “The Blue Tent: Erotic Tales from the Bible” (as Laria Zilber).

Remember, it’s never too late to grow, to connect, and to create the life and relationships you truly want.

Thank you for listening. It means the world to us. See you next time on Late Boomers!

Mentioned in this episode:

Late Boomers is part of the eWomenPodcastNetwork.

eWomenPodcastNetwork

Hi. Welcome to Late Boomers podcast. I'm Cathy Worthington.

And I'm Merry Elkins. We're so glad you're joining us today. As always, we're here to celebrate the possibilities that come with this exciting stage of life, because it's never too late to reinvent yourself, strengthen your relationships, or discover something new.

Today, we're talking about one of the most important and sometimes most challenging aspects of life. Our closest relationships. Whether you've been together five years or 50, every couple faces obstacles, and the question isn't whether problems happen, it's how we move through them together.

Yeah, that's so true. And there's trust, intimacy, forgiveness, passion, and even conflict, which are all a part of the journey. And today we're going to explore what helps relationships survive difficult moments and even become stronger because of them.

Joining us are husband and wife therapists Bruce Chalmer and Judy Alexander, and they are hosts of the podcast called Couples Therapy in Seven Words. That sounds delightful. I can't wait to listen to that. Bruce is also the author of several books, including his newest, the Passion Paradox. Together, they've spent decades helping couples create healthier, more connected relationships.

Bruce and Judy, welcome to Late Boomers. We're delighted to have you both with us.

Well, we're happy to be here. And I just have to correct you. I'm not a therapist.

Oh, okay.

Bruce is a therapist. He likes to say I'm the real person on the podcast, but I'm a retired educator and. And author and lots of other stuff, but therapy is not among my talents, so.

Well, they go well together.

Okay.

They do. They do actually go very well together. Yeah. So we don't. Judy's not licensed, so we. Yeah, we don't work together, but.

Oh, I see. I thought that's how you.

We make beautiful music together. There's that.

Yeah, we do that. We do.

We do that.

Well, you should. Being a couple's therapist.

Indeed.

Yeah.

Well, Bruce, literally, we do because we write songs together, so.

Oh, good. That's good. That's what I thought you meant. That sounds good.

Yeah, that, too.

That's a whole other podcast, Bruce. One of the hardest things a couple can experience is betrayal. So is forgiveness really possible? And where does the healing process begin?

Yeah, yeah, of course it's possible in the sense that I've worked with so many couples over the years, and I've been in private practice for over 30 years, and I've worked with so many couples that have healed from betrayal, so clearly it is possible. Does that mean every Couple ends up staying together? No. Does that mean every couple ends up healing and whatever, however you want to define healing? No, not really, but it certainly is possible. It takes enormous courage. One of the reasons I love doing the work that I do is it's so inspiring and also a great privilege to be invited into people's lives to help them that way. It's so inspiring to see the courage that people show when they're working through really hard stuff. And betrayals among the hardest.

Yeah.

Well, are you talking about basically just sexual betrayal or are there other types of betrayal?

No, actually, I mean, a book I wrote on it, and actually particularly the book I wrote on it, Betrayal and Forgiveness, I include sexual betrayal, of course, is kind of the most of what I see in the office, but also a betrayal between siblings, you know, betrayal, betrayal between business partners, friends. I have examples of all of those things in the book that I wrote

about with couples, there's financial. There's, you know, gambling, alcoholism, drug use that, you know. So it's not just sexual betrayals that couples go through. There's all kinds of ways that you can betray your partner.

Yeah, true. So true. And Judy, I know you're not the therapist, but as you obviously are, since you're making music together, you must be privy to this information. So what do you see emotionally that people often don't expect and do you know, what helps them begin moving forward at all that Bruce has discussed with you?

Well, I think honest conversation. You know, we talked a little earlier amongst ourselves about our seven word formula. Well, Spruce's seven word formula, be kind, don't panic, and have faith. That's where we get the name of our seven word podcast from. So I think that. I think the not to panic part, because so often when something happens in a relationship, the first thing you do is you panic. You go into that freeze and nothing can get. You can't think.

You can't think straight. So I think the important part is not to be able to panic, as Bruce likes to say, to tolerate the anxiety.

Yes. We have sort of an in joke that I say that so often that we. We speculate that if people listening to our podcast had a drinking game where every time I said that they took a shot, they would be completely schnockered by the end of the podcast. I do say tolerate the anxiety.

And I know you, Bruce, you've written that relationship problems are almost never really about communication. And that's kind of surprising because we hear the opposite all the time. So what do you mean by that?

Yeah, that was. That was a fun. The. The book that I wrote has. It's the snarkiest title. It's the only of my titles that are snarky. That is snarky.

Good word.

The title of that book is it's not about communication. Why everything you know about couples therapy is wrong, which I. I do point out late in the book, by the way. That last bit about everything you know about couples therapy being wrong applies to me, too. Everything I know about couples therapy is wrong, too. It's the knowing. So let me get back to your question about the communication part. It is the rule rather than the exception.

In the first session, when I'm just meeting a couple and they're telling me what's going on, and they will almost always say, we need to communicate better. We need tools for communication. We need to figure out, because we try and talk about some of this stuff if it's at all controversial, we have differences or scary or whatever it is, and we get into an argument or we just shut down and get into a deep freeze, or can you give us tools to communicate with? And I. What I love to point out in my rather snarky way is that they are almost always. They're the occasional exception, but almost always they're very good at communicating. That is not the problem. The problem isn't that they're not good at communicating. The problem is what they are communicating so effectively.

If what they're communicating is contempt or anger or mistrust, that's going to come through no matter how carefully you craft your I statements or practice your active listening or engage in your nonviolent communication. All of which are good ideas, by the way. Nothing. They're not bad. It's just that if you actually need them because you're freaking out, you won't be able to implement them. You'll just get into arguments about how you're doing it wrong. And if you don't need them, they're ridiculous. They're absurd.

Yeah. Because there are human beings involved and human beings. There are human beings. I mean, human beings are screwing up what they know. Yeah.

We're not seeing the four seasons. Do you know the. The Tina Fey will 40 thing in season one? We. We were watching it and just laughing. And season. Season one, they had this great scene where Tina fey and Will 40, the married couple, one of the characters were obviously doing couples therapy. They had been doing couples therapy and someone had. I think Tina Fey had something she needed to say to Will Ford.

He said, I need a moment and they clicked into their therapy speak, and you could tell they sent it up beautifully because you could tell they were accomplishing absolutely nothing. All they were doing was engaging in the, in the practice. But of course, that basically, you know, diverted them from actually being intimate, from actually saying how they felt. And so that's, that's why I say, you know, teaching people communications tools is almost always a waste of time.

Well, okay, so, Judy, just made myself

real popular with a lot of therapists out there.

Yeah. Yeah, you did.

You've walked alongside all of this for time. How long have you two been together?

We've been together 22 years, 23 years, married 22 years.

Yeah.

So you have had your ups and downs a bit. So what do you think in knowing about what Bruce does and your education background, what do you think are the biggest mistakes people make when they're trying to restore trust or trying to communicate, if that's the right word. Trying to get things right. Is that a better word?

See, everybody, I say this thing about communication. Nobody wants to use the word anymore. No, it's okay. It's all right. It's fine. I even tell couples, no, it's okay. If you think you need communication things, maybe you do. You know, I could be wrong.

That has happened. Anyway.

Well, I hate to say this, but we've had very. We've had ups. I don't think we've had any.

You haven't had a lot of downs, but there's a reason for that, I think.

Yeah. Well, first, I think Bruce and I have both benefited from having crappy first marriages. So we came into the second marriage knowing what we wanted and knowing what we didn't want. So I think what was like, 45 when we met?

When we met, I was 51, I think.

Yeah.

Were mature.

We. We were mature. And, you know, I, I, I was single for seven years, and I had gone through the dates, and it's like, you know, so when I got a message from Bruce from one of the dating apps that I was on, on JDate, and he was like, well, you know, I'm new to this. I don't know, should, should we talk? Should we call each other? Should we, Whatever. And I said, like, let's just meet for coffee. Because, one, I didn't want to sit through another meal where I had to sit there saying, oh, please, please don't order dessert. I didn't want, you know. Yeah, it's like, I, I don't want to go for drinks.

I just want to. Let's have coffee. See if we have anything in common and if we don't, like, you know, fish and cut bait. So after I met Bruce for that first cup of coffee, it was. And it was two and a half hours later, it's like, wow, this is.

Yeah, this is.

For me, I can have a really deep relationship with him. We had similar backgrounds, we had similar upbrings. We had similar. Similar goals. We just had so much in common. I said to my friends, I had. I was playing mahjong that night. I said to my girlfriends, I said, he's a male me.

I mean, we are just, like, clicking.

That's perfect.

And it's been like that ever since, you know, I need to say it. And it's not like we haven't faced adversity. We've had problems with our children, with grandchildren, you know, family stuff. But it always comes down to he and I being able to communicate.

Oh, no, you said the C word.

I know.

Well, we can talk to each other very openly and very honestly and not have to worry, like the other one is going to, like, insult me or jump down my throat and criticize me. I mean, a little trauma there from the first marriage. So I don't have to worry about those things because he's just not that person, which is why I married him.

Well, and if I can add to that, I mean, that's the other piece. That is all that's underneath all of that is the maturity part. Like what Judy was saying. It's like, yeah, we both had. Had experiences and benefited greatly from knowing. Yeah, we don't want to go through that again. But also, we weren't kids and you are way more mature. You still are more mature than I

am, but you certainly were about women anyway.

Yeah, I think I want to know all the women.

That's true. Yeah. I wanted to ask you a question. You've described stability and intimacy as the two golden gifts that every relationship needs to thrive. So can you explain a little bit what those are and why do you say, and you mentioned this earlier, tolerating anxiety is the chief skill of intimacy.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of my central thesis, I guess, of a lot of the stuff that I do that there's lots of ways of understanding, you know, what do we need to be in a good couple to be in a couple that feels like it works, that you want to be in, and a lot of ways of saying it. But I talk about these two different sets of needs, stability and intimacy, as you mentioned. And that book I mentioned, you Mentioned that I wrote the passion paradox is about a paradox that exists there because they're both needs. And I'm using the word needs carefully. You know, they're not just desires, they're.

If they're not fulfilled enough, something feels sick, it doesn't work. And yet the requirements of the two are in up. It's somewhat in conflict. Stability is all about. And the word stability I'm using in its usual sense. So you're probably thinking something similar to what I'm thinking. When things are stable, they're not shaky, you're not worried about them. You know, if you wake up in the morning and you're not worried about your relationship, it's stable, or at least you think it's stable.

So stability is really important. The more a couple, you know, gets together, builds a life together, especially, you know, have kids, things like that, it puts a huge premium on stability. It's really important. All the skills of stability are about being predictable. You know, I, I think I talk about the boring trifecta of, of attributes to be reliable, responsible and accountable. All. I'm not knocking them. They're all really super important.

They're also boring, they're predictable. That's what it's about. Stability is about that intimacy is equally a need. But intimacy isn't about predictability. It's about feeling alive in the moment. What I mean by intimacy, not just sex, I mean more generally, is where you're present and honest with yourself and each other. That feeling of being alive, that can be beautiful, it can be ecstatic. It can also be terrifying because sometimes being honest with your partner involves telling your partner something that they're not going to like.

You're pretty sure just a complaint, something as simple as that, or maybe more serious, something that is saying, wow, I'm really worried about something, or I'm really worried about our relationship, or I want to try something new in bed and I'm worried you're going to think I'm weird or, you know, fill in the blanks. So that's why tolerating anxiety is necessary for intimacy. And the problem that happens when, with so many of the couples that I see is that they become. They're too afraid to do that, especially if they've tried and it's gone off the rails. And so they, they shut down part of themselves. And over time that doesn't work. Over time. That's where you get things like affairs.

Not the only reason for affairs, but it's a biggie. That's where you get some people Getting depressed in the relationship, that's where you get somebody saying all of a sudden to the other, I'm out of here. I can't stand it anymore. That's where you get couples that are arguing about everything and nothing. So all of that. So, you know, the, a lot of the work I do with couples in therapy is all about helping them learn how to not panic. Which is the faith part is so you don't panic. It's not religious faith, but it's that mindset that says somehow this is all possible.

Can you give us one hint as to what you tell people when stability and intimacy are in conflict?

Well, that's almost always in the first session. I give them that little more or less what I just said. You know, the little mini lecture I just gave you, you know that the bit about there are these two needs, and I talk about that and very often you can see the light bulbs. You know, people will say, wow, I hadn't thought of it that way. Yeah, we're really good at stability, but we can't talk to each other, or we're afraid to talk to each other, or we're afraid to be sexual or, you know, all of those things. So that tends to be how it comes up. And then when people can then focus on, well, how have we been avoiding intimacy, how have we been shutting down? That is scary stuff. But that's when you can start to talk about that without freaking out.

Then they can actually get someplace.

So, Judy, what do you think about how people become more comfortable with vulnerability and the uncertainty that real intimacy requires?

Probably the ability to listen to your partner and try to be as non judgmental as possible and to really hear what they're saying and to honestly reflect. You know, if they're telling you something that they don't like or that they are finding, like Bruce was saying, maybe they want to try something new in bed, or maybe they want to do something different, or maybe they don't like. What you've been saying is to listen honestly and evaluate yourself and not immediately say, get defensive. You know, I think too often a lot of couples get defensive. Be. Well, probably because there's so much back and forth and it's like, you know, somebody's got to win. And I think we're very equal partners. So we look at our marriage more like it's a, a team effort.

No, I, I just, I know without a doubt that, that Bruce always puts me and my needs above everything else. So if he, I know that he's looking out for me. And has my best interests at heart. So if he's telling me something, I'm going to listen to him. And I think perfect for you.

Absolutely.

Want to do with respect, too. Yeah.

It is hugely one of the most

respectful people I know. Not just of me, but, you know, I. I see how he interacts with people just around him and in his everyday life and, you know, in our social circle, he's just that type of person.

So. Well, again, that's amazing.

So, yeah, so are you. And that, you know, it. It's coming back around to that. That notion of maturity again, that. That ability to actually, you know, to hear and to hear and not freak out. It's, you know, you can tell. I do. I'm.

I'm big on the not freaking out bit. That's why it's the middle of the, you know, the don't panic part is in there because it just doesn't work. You can't think clearly. You can't. You. You can't be available to.

Yeah.

You get a shot of adrenaline.

Yeah.

And your brain goes out. Out to lunch. But, Bruce, you've also talked about what you call the death spiral for passion.

Yeah.

So what causes couples to lose that spark and can they get it back?

Yes. Well, what causes and loses. Basically, the same thing I was saying about stability and intimacy. That's the death spiral. Because what people will do is if attempts at intimacy don't work. And again, I'm not just talking about sexually, but it attempts at intimacy. If you're trying to tell your partner something important to you and they won't hear you, or you can't say it, or you're afraid to say it, then people tend to shut that down. That is, in fact, the death spiral for intimacy right there.

Because the more you shut down, the less alive you feel. And ultimately you're left in. You know, a lot of the folks who consult me, it's been going on for years where they just don't know how to connect with each other anymore.

And then they shut down everything.

Yeah.

Yeah. Judy, from your perspective, what do you think about that? And also, what do you think are some of the practical ways couples can rekindle emotional and physical closeness after years together that maybe they don't have?

We're smiling because you just teed up a perfect question, so go for it.

Okay.

Can't wait to hear it.

I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Oh, I'm referring to your book.

Oh, my book.

All right, let's hear that.

Yeah.

Well, You. Because you're asking how might a couple, you know, reignite that spark?

Okay, well, we talked about, you know, being able to talk to each other and hear each other and listen and take. Take what the other was saying really to heart. But also being married to Bruce and doing our podcast. And. And even though I'm not a therapist, I've spoken with tons of therapists and regular therapist, sexual therapist, tantric therapist, all different types of people. So I was very inspired to start writing erotica.

Oh, think about that.

Can show you.

Excellent.

So I. I wrote this book called the Blue Tent Erotic Tales from the Bible.

Oh, and. And by the way, Judy shows instead

of the red tent.

Yeah, exactly. That's.

That's like.

That was the idea. Yes. With apologies to Anita Diamond.

Y.

Yes.

Or maybe.

Thanks.

Tell us a little bit what that is.

Okay, so. Well, the. The educate. I was a teacher for many years, and then I ended my career working as an educator at a synagogue. So Jewish education for over 20 years. So I've always written. I was primarily a playwright, but then when I retired, I didn't want to do playwriting anymore. I wanted to do some other type of writing.

I said, well, what. What do I really know? I said, well, I know a lot about the Bible and know a lot about sex. Well, you know, between speaking to therapists and being married to this wonderful man. So I decided that I was going to write biblical erotica. So there didn't seem to be a lot in that area. So what I did was I took the usual stories from the Bible, and there's a lot of sex in that Bible that nobody really ever pays much attention to, or, you know, certainly we're not reading the stories to our kids.

We didn't learn about that in Sunday school.

Exactly. But, you know, when. When you study it as an adult, which Bruce and I do, we go to a Torah study group every week at our synagogue. And, you know, we've both done tons of reading over the years, and as I said, I was an educator, and, you know, we did some teaching in the high school kids, about sex and the Jewish take on it. But when you get down to it, a lot of the stories in the Bible itself have tons of sex. Tons. So all I did was fill in some of the graphic details of what they don't have in the Bible.

So, for example, it just says, begat, begat, begat.

Right. Yeah. Well, they had to be doing something to be begetting.

Yeah, I know.

But of course, if I can throw in. I mean, in Jewish tradition, actually, this is true in many different traditions, but certainly very were familiar with Jewish tradition. There is, in addition to the written text, there is also what's called midrash, which is, you know, expansive writings, sort of filling in the blanks. And the rabbis who wrote Midrash and the various other people who wrote that didn't shy away from. From sexual stuff at all. There's lots of stories in the Talmud. There's lots of stories in the midrash more generally that you. You didn't have to make up any of these particular encounters.

You just expanded on them.

Yeah, I just feel that, you know, like, the details of what they're doing, but I mean,

I don't know how graphic you want it to be.

So, like, there's a midrash on when Adam, when he was in the Garden of Eden, before.

Before Eve.

Before Eve came along. In order for Adam to be able to name all the animals, which it does say in the text that he named all the animals. Well, what it doesn't say in the text and what Midrash says is that in order to name the animals, he had to intimately know them. So basically had to have sex with all the animals.

Can't figure out how he did it with mosquitoes. We haven't figured that one out yet.

But thank goodness for Eve.

Yes. Well, and actually before Eve, there was.

Before Eve, there was another character, Lilith, and she is viewed as, you know, now she's viewed in Jewish literature kind of as a she demon because she insisted on sexual equality with Adam. So she was actually, according to Midrash, the first woman before Eve came along. And Eve was more submissive. So these are stories. Take the Lilith and Adam story, and I go through what their sexual escapades are. Then she flies out, and then Eve comes in, and then what. The sexual dynamic between Adam and Eve and how. What their sex life is and what they do.

Same thing, you know, with other characters. Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebecca. You know, there's the story of.

Especially some of those that are still giving birth when they're in their 80s and 90s.

Well, exactly.

Yeah.

She was. She was 90 when she gave birth, which is pretty good.

She had to be having sex. And, you know, we're gonna have to

get both of your books.

Oh, indeed. Yes.

Yeah.

So that's what.

Get hers first. That'll keep you married.

That keeps things sp.

Spicy.

And as Bruce likes to say, if you get the audio, you. You're hands free. So.

Oh, dear.

And Judy did the. The Judy we We both, all of our books, we have both audio versions and we each did our own. So Judy did a beautiful narration of hers and so, and her, she's, she has a pseudonym, Laria Zilber. So people who are looking for her book, it's the Blue Tent Erotic Tales from the Bible by Laria Zilber. If you search for just the blue tent on Amazon, you'll get blue tents. So if you search for the Blue Tent Erotic Tales from the Bible, then

you'll get to go camping.

You're going to have to give, that's fine. But it's not podcast. So writing erotic viewers and listeners can understand that.

Yes, indeed.

Yes. So you've covered a little bit of this. Maybe we can elaborate, but do you have a seven word formula? Be kind, don't panic, and have faith. And how, how did, how did you create that? Why is it resonating with so many people?

You know, I, I have my, you know, my creation story of it because I remember this. It was, I've been in private practice now for what, 31 plus years. And early on, probably the second or third year of my private practice, I was in a consultation group meeting. You know, therapists get together and talk about stuff. And one of the people there, who happened to be a friend of mine, we were leaving the meeting, it was over, we were getting up and moving and he turned to me, we must have been talking about couples therapy. I really don't even remember. But he turned to me and he said, how do you do couples therapy anyway? You know, like, as if I could answer that, you know, walking out the door. But I had actually given it a little bit of thought and I had crafted a five word formula just to throw around other numbers.

Be kind. Basically what I said was, I think if you boil down what we're doing, just really oversimplify what we're doing. We're basically trying to convey to people, be kind and don't panic. And the idea there is if you're panicking, you can't be kind. And kind, I don't just mean be nice, I mean be kin, that feeling of kinship. So be kind. That, that was five words if you count and be kind and don't panic. But then I realized, I started sharing that with people and they would say, well, that's interesting, that's really good, tell me.

I get that idea. How do you not panic? And they had me there because I had to realize, well, I don't have a simple answer to it other than to notice something which is that the couples who were able to not panic, even dealing with things like betrayal and, you know, awful sorts of things happening in their relationship. They were the ones who showed what I came to call faith. And I don't mean religious faith, but they came to show that sense of faith. And what I mean by faith is a mindset. It's this mindset that just says, you know, this whole reality thing is right to be what it is, even though it's hard to understand sometimes and painful sometimes, but there's some rightness about it. You know, religious people would say, oh, you mean God is good, basically, which is exactly what it would mean from a religious standpoint. But from a non religious standpoint, it's not, you know, you don't even have to invoke the idea of God.

It's just the idea that this whole reality business is. It's basically right. So our life is basically meaningful even when it's hard. Those are the folks who could cope with trying to understand betrayal, trying to understand, you know, things going wrong, trying to understand somebody who's changing their mind about wanting to be in the relationship.

Right. Not wanting to bury whatever it was, the betrayal, the infidelity, and say, well, let's just get past this and go on with our lives again and pick up from where before this happened.

Yeah, yeah, those are the folks. The folks who say that are not showing that faith and they don't get anywhere until they realize, no, not only can't you go back, you shouldn't go back where you want to end up as better off than you were, because where you were is what you got.

And there really is nothing, I guess. Judy, what do you think about that? Can you elaborate more and talk about how powerful that could be with faith and also paying attention where it's really important?

Well, I think, you know what Bruce started saying about not wanting to go back because that's where it got you in the first place. So what you want to do as a couple who's been through this, if you want to stay together, and that's not always a given that people want to stay together, but if you do want to stay together, or even if you want to still be, need to be in each other's lives, because probably because you have children together, is to get to a place where you can understand that, you know, somebody might have, let's say the guy, if he cheated on you, what was, what was your role in this relationship? What was, what was it about you that it came to that? Where did that getting Back to the whole thing with intimacy. Where did the intimacy break down? Why is he seeking something outside of the marriage? So you have to examine. Because everybody. You know, a relationship is not just two people. It's each of you individually, and it's your relationship as a couple too. And then all the other external forces. Yeah.

And all the external forces that come with it. Children, parents, community. So all these factors that happen that get. Get you to a certain place. So you've got to see what your role is in this thing of coupledom.

And I just want to. I want to add to that. That is a. It's always a necessary part of understanding the context. It's a thin line. And especially early on, thin line between recognizing. Yeah, you're both part of the context and blaming the victim because you don't want to do, you know, we. That the.

The fact that the guy cheated on her doesn't mean that it was her fault that he cheated. His cheating was his own moral failing. Pretty much everybody I work with acknowledges that I rarely meet. I'm trying to think of. I've ever met a couple where someone cheated and said, but it wasn't a. It shouldn't be a problem. What's the matter with you? Nobody's in my office saying that the ones who cheated are feeling very guilty about it. But.

So you don't want to blame, you know, it's not her fault. Even if she was, you know, cold or something. That doesn't. Didn't mean he cheat. He should have cheated. He could have talked to her about it. But nevertheless, they're both part of the context, and that's that it takes faith to go into that kind of conversation.

Yeah, that's great. Well, Bruce, you've compared couples therapy to improv theater, so that's a fascinating analogy. What do you mean by that?

Yeah, that when I was writing that book, it's not about communication. I was speculating, you know, thinking about that a lot. Like, what is it like? The first session I do with folks, I mentioned that little, you know, mini lecture I give about stability and intimacy. And it. It sort of sets a tone and, you know, usually sort of gives people some hope. It's like, oh, there's a way of understanding this. After that, it's not fixed anymore. It's not like I have these set questions that I'll ask people or set topics that we have to cover.

We're following the meaning and the reason. I think it's like improv, and I am not. I. Maybe I've tried It. Once or twice, but I'm not skilled at improv. You've done probably more than I have. Yeah, but. And.

And several of our kids were, you know, like theater people, but.

And Merry, both actors.

You are.

Yeah, we understand.

You know better than I do that the thing about improv, and I'm sure you'll. You'll know this before I will. Or knew it before I did the yes and thing.

Yes.

And the thing about yes and what I'm realizing is that in the beginning of work with a couple, they are not doing yes and they're doing no. Damn it.

Right.

No doubt.

But I'm still doing yes and in other words, I'm trying to follow the. The thread where it goes even if it seems ridiculous. Like, improv, of course, is hilarious because it can get ridiculous. Well, I'm following the thread of meaning where it goes without freaking out, you know, so when. When he says he cheated or she says she cheated or they say they cheated, I'm not freaked out about it. I'm curious. And that's sort of the sense of improv. So after that first session, the first session's like the prompt, you know, it's like you have to have a good prompt for improv to get going.

After that, who knows where it goes? Actually, when I was writing about that, I was thinking, what if the prompt were that you're lost, you find yourself lost, your car is broken down, and then this weird guy comes along and he sits down with you and he starts asking you all these strange personal questions. Well, that's basically therapy, you know? So there's your prompt. So take it from there.

Oh, perfect.

Well, yeah.

Love it. Love it.

Judy, what do you think about using improv in your marriage with Bruce?

I think our whole marriage is just improv.

Thinking that same thing.

Yes and no script or anything to it, Just yes and no.

We're up for. We're up for anything.

Many things.

Many things.

Well, at least we're up to hearing what the other one has to say. Doesn't mean we're always up for it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, Bruce, you have a chapter in your work titled Sex, Good Sex and Sacred Sex. So those are very intriguing distinctions. Can you explain the differences?

Yes, I can. And I have to say yes. I'm using them in a. In a very quirky sort of way.

The.

The first one. Yeah. Sex, Good sex, and sacred sex. The first one, I. I. In the chapter, I call it plain old sex. What is plain old sex? Well, whatever you think it is, you know, if you think it's sex?

It's.

Actually, I'm not going to get into a Clintonian discussion. You know, I did not have sex with that woman or whatever. You remember that.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

I'm not. Not going in, not going there. It's, you know, what plain old sex requires. And this, of course, this part isn't funny. What plain old sex requires is that you not freak out. And people who've been sexually traumatized have trouble even with plain old sex. Just the idea sometimes of being sexual when somebody has been through, you know, rape or other kinds of sexual trauma is very difficult. So even to do plain old sex, you need to be.

You need to process that stuff, recover from it, so that at least you can feel physically interested and able to do again whatever you call sexual. So, you know, the other thing that plain old sex requires, basically, is just a little bit of knowledge, you know, some basic anatomy and basic physiology. You know, what's where and what does what.

That's.

Those are important things for plain old sex. Now, what takes plain old sex and turns it, at least in my definition, into good sex is when you introduce intimacy in the terms that we were talking about. I don't mean it has to be tender and, you know, it could be very vigorous. But the point is that sense of feeling, of tolerating the anxiety, of being alive and honest. So couples that can get to good sex have to be able to talk about things that maybe they're afraid to talk about initially, like fantasies. For example, sometimes people are afraid to say fantasies because they're really worried, oh, no, my partner's going to think I'm really weird for whatever it is the fantasy might be. So couples. And even simpler things like just saying, I like this, I don't like that, and not freaking out, you know, taking that as a gift.

That's. That's how you get to good sex. Sacred sex really is more about the sacred than it is about the sex. So what do I mean by sacred sex? Well, what do I mean by sacred? Sacred is when something. It's not just the two of you anymore. It's. It's involved in higher forces and a higher purpose. And so there's sacred.

It moves to sacred sex. When. When you get out of yourself and you're connecting to, you know, the Tantra, people will talk about that, connecting to larger forces or, you know, even in terms of, you know, traditional Western religions, you know, connecting to God but still. Still feeling horny, you know, without. Without that having to, you know, squash the lust Somehow connecting that to, to a greater purpose. That's what I mean by sacred.

And heard that.

Yeah. And sex is amenable to that in particular. You know, that's where tantra comes from, that, that concept. Because the, the forces of sex are awe. They're awe inspiring. And that's, that's what sacredness is about. You know, if, if you remember, you know, anybody who's ever had an. Or anybody who's ever had a first orgasm, and they're not always nice, they're not always good.

You know, they're. And the circumstances aren't always good, but they're, the power is often awesome. It's like I didn't know my body could do that or that. It just seems like it took over. So sex is really amenable to that kind of thing. So when people are at the good sex stage where they can actually feel able to, to again to tolerate some anxiety, then they can enter into the possibility of sacred sex.

So I have a question for both of you, but I want to ask Judy first. So what do you think couples often misunderstand about maintaining a fulfilling, intimate sexual relationship as they grow older together with older people? Talk about older people and fulfilling relationships?

Well, I can only talk about us, so I can talk about other older people and my girlfriends. From what I hear from them,

no names.

No names. So like Bruce said, it's a willingness to be able to talk to the other person to tell them your desires, your likes, your dislikes. Obviously there's going to be physical changes, physiological changes. When people say sex, I think there's this conception that it means, you know, penile, penetrative sex. Sex doesn't have to be just that. It could be other things. It could be if couples, let's say they can no longer have sex, there are other things that you can do with each other to fulfill each other sexually, whether it's sexual using hands or mouths or toys or other body parts. As one of our sex therapist friend likes to say, you know, you got hands, you got feet, you got toes, you got a nose, you got a mouth, you know, make use of them.

So, you know, when you, when you get older and you don't think of those things when you're 20 and 30 and you can be really acrobatic. But you know, if you, if you can't turn over and you can't have something inside you, whatever it is, if you want to go ahead and do other stuff, I think talking about that with your partner to explore is one of the things that keeps your sex life alive. And if you can't do any of that, even a hug or a deep kiss, you can always kiss and hug. Touching, touching, you know, all of that is. Is very sexual. And so it doesn't have to be just a sex act. It just can be acts of connection, staring into each other's eyes, you know, having a nice glass of wine after dinner and just looking at each other. Just things like that, giving each other back rubs.

So it doesn't have to be a penetrative sex. It could just be other things that are creating a sense of intimacy between the two of you and help you feel connected because, you know, who knows what's going to happen to us in 20 years if we're going to be able to. So I still want to have that connection with him.

Yeah. The one thing I'd add to that, I love, to paraphrase at least the late David Schnarsh, who was a couple's therapist who wrote a lot about sexual stuff. And he would go around giving lectures to folks about the general topic of sex and couple couples. And he would ask the question of his audience. He'd say, at what age do you think men and women, respectively, reach their sexual peak? And, you know, the usual answers would be, you know, usually it's like, well, women older than men, you know, men in their 20s, women in their 30s or whatever it would be. And Schnars would say, nope, both men and women reach their sexual peak in their 60s and 70s. What people would say, that can't be. We're not talking hormones, right? We all go through.

I mean, women, obviously, menopause, and men also, you know, like, we ain't what we used to be when we got older. And. And we're not talking acrobatics, as you said. We're not talking, you know, sexual gymnastics. He's talking about maturity. The very things you're describing that the. And I remember when I fell in love with you in my early 50s, commenting that, wow, this is as intense as it was when I was 18, except now I can talk, right? In other words, there was maturity. I could say things and not be afraid and in ways I couldn't do when I was younger.

So maturity. So it is. It does not. Yes, the sexual intimacy. There's no particular age where it has to end and the. The myths people will have. And here I'm not to mansplain to the three women in the conversation, but, you know, the idea that, you know, sex goes out the window with menopause is simply not the case to take statistically for many, many, many women. And again, you guys would know it much better than I would.

And the, and for men as well, the, you know, the, the stuff about, you know, erectile dysfunction, they, they define these things as opposed to your dick doesn't get as hard as it used to all the time. Well, okay, you can, that doesn't have to throw anything off if you don't freak about it. So that's, that would be a misconception, I would say, too, is that people think it has to go away because it doesn't.

Yeah.

Nice. Well, Bruce and Judy, this has been a very thoughtful conversation, and you've given us so many practical tools with a deeper understanding of what makes lasting relationships work.

Yeah, that's really poignant. And if listeners would like to learn more about where they can find your podcast, Couples Therapy in Seven Words, and your books, Ruth, including the Passion Paradox, and yours, Judy, Would you say what the name is and your name, your pen name is?

Sure. It's. It's the Blue Tent Erotic Tales from the Bible and Laria Zilber, Z I L B E R. And you could find all the information on our podcast site, CT like couples therapy ctn7.com or you can go to Bruce's Bruce chalmer.com, his website, and there's also a Larryazilber.com website for my book and all that good stuff.

Oh, thank you so much. And thank you to our listeners for joining us today. We hope this conversation has given you new ideas and encouragement for your own relationships.

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