Coming Back to Life: Healing the Mother Wound with Makena & Gigi Sage

Makena had built a life that looked successful on paper (career, independence, and ambition) but underneath it all, she was struggling with anxiety, burnout, and a quiet sense that something was missing. In this deeply personal episode, McKenna sits down with her mother, Gigi Sage—a pioneering coach with over 40 years of experience—to share their powerful journey through breakdown, healing, and transformation. Together, they explore what it means to “lose your light,” how to find your way back to yourself, and the profound role their mother-daughter relationship played in that process.

From navigating a shared “dark night of the soul” to healing the mother's wound and redefining their relationship beyond traditional roles, this conversation offers insight, honesty, and practical wisdom for anyone seeking deeper connection and aliveness in their life.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

• What it means to “lose your light” and how it happens
• The impact of childhood experiences and family challenges on identity
• How burnout, anxiety, and misalignment show up—even in a “successful” life
• The power of slowing down and reconnecting with what truly brings you alive
• A simple but transformative question: What brings you vitality?
• How to navigate and heal the “mother wound”
• Why forgiveness is more about your freedom than the other person
• How redefining roles (mother, daughter, mentor, partner) can deepen connection
• The importance of curiosity over assumptions in relationships

Key Takeaways:

• Start noticing what energizes you vs. drains you
• Create space to slow down, clarity doesn’t come from force
• Ask yourself regularly: What brings me alive?
• Get curious about the people closest to you instead of assuming you know them
• Healing doesn’t require the other person’s participation—it starts with you

Practical Thoughts:

Healing, whether within yourself or in your relationships, isn’t about rewriting the past it’s about releasing its hold on you.

Thank you for listening. Don't forget you can submit your question! And yes, I really am going to give you an answer in an upcoming podcast.and be sure to say hi on Instagram!

Resources Mentioned

• Makena's Book - The Wisdom That Raised Me: A Daughter's Journey into Wholeness, Wisdom and Womanhood (featuring exercises like “Charting Your Aliveness”)
• Coaching principles from Gigi Sage’s 40+ years of experience

Help me reach more service providers like you by following the show & leaving a rating or review on Apple & Spotify!

Keyword tags:

Brittneyscott,#MotherDaughterRelationship #podcast #podcastclips #podcastlife #selfgrowth #personaldevelopment #healingjourney #innerhealing #motherwound #selfdiscovery #mindsetshift #emotionalhealing #anxietyrecovery #burnoutrecovery #womensupportingwomen #womenempowerment #relationshiphealing #familyhealing #forgivenessjourney #mentalwellness #liveyourtruth #findyourpurpose #authenticliving #growthmindset #selfawareness #healingtrauma #lifecoach #coachinglife #spiritualgrowth #wellnessjourney #empoweredwomen

McKenna had built a life that checked all

the boxes: career, ambition, independence.

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But beneath the success, she was

struggling with anxiety, burnout, and a

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nagging sense that there was something

more to life that she was missing.

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What she didn't expect was for her

mother, a longtime coach and mentor

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to others, to become her guide.

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Her mother, Gigi Sage, is a pioneer

in the coaching industry with

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a legacy spanning four decades.

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As a master coach, mentor, and author, she

supported thousands of people, leaders,

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couples, entrepreneurs, and families to

create successful and deeply fulfilling

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lives, careers, and relationships.

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Known for her keen intuition and

no-nonsense wisdom, her essence supported

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her daughter McKenna and helped her to

create something magical and build a life

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that was actually fulfilling for her.

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So in this episode of the podcast, we are

gonna interview McKenna and Gigi and let

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them tell you a little bit about their

mother-daughter relationship, about how

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McKenna had some breakthroughs and how

her mom was her guide to help her through

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that, and how McKenna navigated her own

mother wound and what that meant for her.

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So let's head into the interview

and learn about McKenna and Gigi

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Welcome to the Mother Daughter

Relationship Show, the podcast for mothers

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and daughters who want to build stronger

bonds, deepen their understanding,

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and transform their relationships.

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I'm your host, Brittney

Scott, licensed therapist and

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mother-daughter relationship coach.

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After years of working with hundreds of

daughters and mothers, I've developed

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strategies that help break generational

patterns, heal wounds, and create the

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loving relationships you've always wanted.

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Each week, I'll be sharing insights from

real clients, expert interviews, and

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practical tools you can use immediately

to improve your mother-daughter dynamic.

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Whether you're struggling with

communication breakdowns, navigating

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major life transitions, or simply wanna

take your already good relationship to

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the next level, this show is for you.

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And yes, the transformation I guide

my clients through can be yours too.

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I'll share more about

how you can work with me.

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It's time to experience the

relationship you both deserve.

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Are you ready?

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Let's dive in

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And we have McKenna and her

mom, Gigi, here with us today.

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I'm really excited to hear their

story and allow them to share.

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So tell the listeners about yourselves.

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Oh, that's a broad question.

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I'm excited to be here, first of all.

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Thank you for having us.

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Yeah, me too.

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Thank you so much for having us.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I'm excited.

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Let's see, a little about our stories.

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Well, which part of our

stories, like today or past?

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What would you love for us to go into?

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I think I would like you guys to

share when did you notice that

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your light started to go out?

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Hmm.

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For me, I think it was when we had our,

what I call kind of our family dark

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night of the soul that I talk about,

which is my parents got divorced when I

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was around 12, and then Gigi got sick.

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She had chronic fatigue syndrome.

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My dad got cancer.

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We went through a lot of financial ups and

downs, and so we talk about that sometimes

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it happens very gradually for people over

time, and sometimes it happens kind of

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in a certain moment or a certain stage.

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And so for me, that was really

the time when it was kind of like

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childhood shifted very much, and the

realities of the world sort of set in.

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And so I would say that's when I had

that experience of my lights going out.

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Gigi, do you wanna speak

to that at all, or?

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For myself?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's funny 'cause nobody ever

asks me this question, right?

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You always ask other people.

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I've asked thousands of people.

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So, you know, specifically, I can't

tell you, but it was a gradual

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process, but it was in my teens.

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And I would say- Probably

maybe 13, something like that.

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You know, I, I was a very, would you

say, curious person, and really started

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doing all kinds of things early.

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And so I kinda matured quickly.

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And so I think I, again, too, lost

that youthful child part of myself and

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went into kind of the depression or

the confusion that teens often go into.

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And my mother, I would say, really

didn't know how to navigate that.

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I also went into what people expected

of me instead of what, you know, in my

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heart, more that I, I was a very fun kid,

dance and singing all the time, and I

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went into much more of a serious role.

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But it was a gradual experience.

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Some people have it where they

see, in a moment, they really

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see where their lights went out.

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Hmm.

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So that was mine.

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Yeah, and in the book we really talk

about, I think the first line is, "A

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painful thing to witness a forgetting,

nearly as painful as going through

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one yourself," and that's because I

really talk about how m- my mom, Gigi,

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how she then went on this journey in

her, her 20s to wake back up again

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and to really come alive and to

tap back into her natural vitality.

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And in that, she started to lead

life on her terms, and we had

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this very unconventional childhood

and a lot of beauty and magic.

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Of course, there were challenges as well.

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But in that, then she sort of went

through another wave, so to speak,

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of our lights going out, and that's

what I talk about, is that we both

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kind of had that at the same time.

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So that's second time that that

happened, and we went through

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that dark night of the soul.

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And then in some ways, you know, Gigi

very much was my catalyst for waking

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back up again or coming back alive again.

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That's what the book is really about.

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And then I think in some

ways I was that for her, too.

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You know?

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Absolutely.

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Or really a part of that for her.

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Yeah.

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Absolutely.

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So I think we both supported each other.

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I supported Makena through her journey,

you know, of coming back alive, and Makena

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did with me also when we decided to really

partner together and build something.

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You know, her belief and support hugely

changed me and changed my life as well.

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So we're very open to doing

that with each other, yeah.

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Mm.

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So describe what that is.

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Like, what helping each other

through this and kind of re- like

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waking back up or finding light

again, what did that look like?

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What's the work?

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What it looked like?

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Yeah, there was an experience for

me, a very particular experience,

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that was the catalyst for this, which

I call the soul reveal, and that

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was a time in my life when I was…

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This is fast-forward now

to my mid to late 20s.

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I was very successful on paper.

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I had a successful marketing

career, and I had a great life.

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A lot was working, but I was feeling this

sense of like, there's something more

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I'm meant to be doing, but I don't know

what that is, and I was Having a lot of,

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um, anxiety and panic attacks, frankly.

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I was having daily panic

attacks at that time.

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And I was just like, "What is happening?"

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I could not seem to get clear.

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And I'm a very, you know … I'm

someone, as your listeners probably

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are too, who I was soul searching.

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I was working with coaches and

different people and reading books and,

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and trying to get clear, and I just

couldn't seem to get there on my own.

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And Gigi had been really, I think, trying

to let me sort of figure things out

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because we all know how your mom is a

therapist or a coach, like, we, we don't

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want them normally to coach us or do that.

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And so she was kind of

sitting by and letting me…

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You know, not completely sitting by, of

course she guided me, but sort of letting

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me try to figure it out until there

came a point where she was just like, "I

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can't sit by and watch this any longer."

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And that happened to happen when

we were together on a trip to

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Costa Rica to lead a retreat.

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And so through her asking me

questions, maybe, Gigi, you want

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to speak a little bit to that?

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Yeah.

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I saw Makena was in a lot of pain.

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She worked so hard and was on her

computer, you know, 10 to 12 hours a day.

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And, you know, just I could see her

soul, like, just going, shriveling up.

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And so when I got the opportunity,

I knew I was gonna be with her.

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She was leading a retreat with me for

women in Costa Rica, and I took her on

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this experience of just, uh, spending

time together, walking and talking.

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And every time she tried to go to what

did she want to do with her life, I would

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divert her and have her go get a massage

or, you know, we would sit down and have

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a nice dinner or a margarita or whatever,

because she was so in this habit of trying

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to figure out what she wanted to do.

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And so I waited by spending time with her.

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And when she relaxed, then I started

to ask her basically questions

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like, "What does your heart want?"

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And so she was now in a

different frame of mind.

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She wasn't coming from that

place of trying to figure it out.

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So when she was more relaxed, then

she could start to open up and

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really share what was on her heart.

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What was she feeling or seeing or

dreaming, or maybe what were her dreams

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when she was younger that we go back to.

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And as we talked, she

started to see things.

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And again, I didn't try to make

it into a plan or anything, I

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just said, "Okay, let's continue."

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So we spent, what was it,

four days or three days?

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Two days.

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It felt like a lot longer.

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Just doing this, and I just held

this space for her to talk and

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talk and share what was on her

heart, and her frustrations.

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And then I would just guide

her by asking, like I said,

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"What really brings you alive?"

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That's one of my favorite questions.

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What brings vitality

into your body, actually?

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What brings you alive?

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Because that is for your listeners also,

those are your cues of waking back up.

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Those are those things because when

you know what you love and you start

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doing that, what happens is you gain

energy and inspiration, and through

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that you start to see life differently.

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So that's basically what we did.

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She became more energized.

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Instead of looking through that loop of

how do I get out of what I'm doing, she

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looked out of the loop of what inspires me

and where, where do I feel really on, and

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she started to see how she could do that.

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I helped her to begin to see, okay, you

can start to do little bits of that.

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You don't have to change

your whole life yet.

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Yeah.

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And Gigi has a great quote she

always says, which really captures

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this, I think, which is, "When

women deeply relax, we become wise."

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And in that, that was my experience,

is I was coming from this place in

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my life all the time of stress and of

trying to figure it out from my mind.

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And finally, when she helped me

relax and unwind and get away from

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trying to figure it all out, then

there was space for clarity to really

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dawn, and that was my experience.

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So that was the catalyzing sort of

moment for me of coming back alive again,

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and then really it was a, a journey.

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I mean, it had many, many steps.

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And I think through life we go through

many times of really being in ourselves

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and in our aliveness, and then of

course that dims to some degree.

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But I think having gone through it,

you know, once, and at least once in my

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case, and multiple times in Gigi's case,

it's like once you have that roadmap,

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you have that grid, that's so much she

taught me, is then how to find your

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way back there again if you do lose it.

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So that was a little bit of

the coming back alive again.

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And, and we haven't really said,

but Gigi's work, 'cause she's been a

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coach for 40 years, so working with

people, and this was really catalyzed

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through her own experience that we

talk about of her first awakening.

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And so I had the privilege, which

most people don't have, but that's

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why I wanted to write the book, was

that so more people would have these

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tools and this, through the story, of

this framework and this mentorship.

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So it was really life-changing for me.

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Hugely life-changing.

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Yeah, and just to s- say, too, if someone

is curious, in the book, I think it's the

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second chapter, there's a exercise at the

end of the chapter called Charting Your

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Aliveness, and you can walk through that

and start to see where is your vitality.

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It starts to map your aliveness.

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And so it gives people the tools,

again, to go out of their head and

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into their experience to start to see.

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McKenna, what was it like to, I

guess, go through that process with

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your mom and not, I don't know, a

different life coach or- … like, it

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being your mom, knowing that there's-

Yeah … a different connection to her.

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What was that like for you?

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For me, it didn't take

away from the experience.

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It actually really added to it.

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But I, I get where you're coming from,

and then in that, I don't know that that

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would be the case for everybody, right?

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And I will say that my mom

and I don't have a typical

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mother-daughter relationship.

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And in that, I think part of it, we

were kind of talking about this before

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we got on today, is that we don't

hold each other in the role of, like,

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mother and daughter in the typical way.

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Of course, she's my mother.

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In some ways she's completely that, right?

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My love and support in so many ways, and

I'm her daughter and many things to her.

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But we've never sort of been fixed

on the idea of what those roles need

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to be, and so it's allowed us to have

many different kinds of relationships.

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It's allowed us to be friends.

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It's allowed us to be business partners.

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You know, we've navigated through

a lot of different things in life.

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And so when I was in that

experience, she wasn't my mother.

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I think that's the truth, you know?

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She was my friend and very much my

mentor in that experience, and that's

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so much as I've really been open to that

in our dynamic, is her being my mentor

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and having these other relationships.

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Yeah, I think, like she said, our

relationship's different, and we

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just don't have the expectation.

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Uh, what I see often with mothers and

daughters, there's an expectation that

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a mother's supposed to be a certain way.

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There's an expectation that a

daughter's supposed to be a certain way.

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And while those are great roles, when

we have the expectation, we actually

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close off the connection because

we aren't curious about the person.

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I would say, if anything, Makena

and I are constantly curious about

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each other and supporting each

other to evolve, supporting each

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other to go for what, what we want.

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And for…

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You know, I have five kids- And

of course, that's my work, so, you

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know, I've been doing it 40 years.

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It's a natural thing for me.

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But with all my children, I've always,

I look to see what do they want, how

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do they wanna develop in their lives,

and I get behind that to support them.

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I'm not trying to create kids like me.

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You know?

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I'm not trying to recreate myself.

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Now, Makena and I's relationship also is

mission-driven, so that's very different.

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We're on a mission

together to change lives.

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Mm.

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And so that also keeps us in a very

respectful mode with each other.

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We're aligned in that sense,

and that doesn't mean- Yeah

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that we don't fight sometimes.

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It doesn't mean that we don't

have the normal mother-daughter

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stuff that comes up.

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I would just say we have a lot less of

it, in my experience, than most people

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because, like she said, we are on a

mission together, we are in business

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together, we're very much professional

with each other in those areas.

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And then again, like we said, just

not trying to hold those roles.

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So that may not be possible for

everybody, but that was, that was, for

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us, really what's allowed us to have

kind of the relationship that we do.

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Yeah.

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What is possible, though, is to really be

curious about your mother or daughter and

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ask them, you know, what are their dreams,

what do they want, instead of thinking

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you know them, because familiarity

breeds contempt, they say, right?

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We get around somebody, we think we

know them, and you don't know them.

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I always say, you know, that person gets

up and they go to work, and they show

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up at work and everybody treats them

completely differently and sees them

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differently than maybe you see them.

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So the biggest thing, I think, with

mothers and daughters is to let go

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of the view, of any kind of view,

and get curious about each other.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah.

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So with you guys, like, having

these different roles between

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the two of you and showing up in

different ways for each other, not

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just the typical mother-daughter,

how do y'all navigate boundaries?

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W- how do you know, I guess, which role

you're in or which hat you're playing?

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When is Gigi mom and, and not mom?

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Like, how do you guys know that and-

Mm-hmm Well, we have a, a thing that we do

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around business, and what I call is, and

I, I teach this also to all my clients,

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is to be professional instead of personal.

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I also encourage this in

people's private relationships.

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In the sense of not professional

in the sense people think, "Oh,

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that's not very, uh, intimate."

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It's very intimate because there's

a certain level of respect.

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And so in us doing that, we create

boundaries that way because we're

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really respectful of each other,

and we practice that all the time.

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And of course, we cross it sometimes, and

like McKenna says, you know, if you read

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the book, you'll see we- we've had bad

fights where we're arguing or whatever.

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But under- She's yelling at

me walking down the road We,

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we tell it all, don't worry.

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But in that, underneath the core

of our agreement is respect.

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Yeah.

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And of course, there have been

times when we've crossed boundaries.

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You know, I think McKenna, uh, it's even

in the book too, there was a time where

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I depended on Mc- McKenna too much.

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That was the, the mother wound

that she talks about, and

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depended way too much on her.

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And then she went to college.

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We had to separate for a while.

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Um, but I guess the difference is

we don't make that into something

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that can never be resolved.

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We're willing to get in, do

the work on whatever comes up.

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We will talk about it and go through

it, and then, you know, we're

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always looking, how can we respect

and how can we build together?

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How do we evolve to become better people?

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Yeah, and I think as far as how

do we navigate the different roles

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beyond that, I mean, it's pretty

clear for us when we're in business

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time, in business mode, right?

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If we're in working hours, we're on work

calls, we're leading a retreat, we're…

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It's like we're in a certain

mode, a certain energy with each

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other, and sometimes we have

to have those conversations.

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I mean, Gigi just had that

conversation with me this week.

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I've had a lot going on personally.

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She said, "Listen, we're about to

go lead a retreat for 25 women.

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We have to be able-- You have to

set these things aside, and we

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have to go pro," basically, right?

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And, and I know that, but it's

always a good reminder, and, and

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I don't take that personally.

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Like, "Oh, she doesn't care."

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I have to set all that aside because

that's when we're in business, right?

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And we're caring for our clients, and

that's where our attention has to be.

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But then when we're relaxing at home

or she's visiting or I'm visiting her,

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then of course we have times where we're

just unwinding and talking and chatting,

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and that's more the personal time.

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So for us, it's felt, uh, pretty

clear, I would say, when we're

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navigating one versus the other.

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Yeah, I think usually it's pretty clear.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That can be hard for a

lot of moms and daughters.

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Yeah.

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It sounds like that works very well

for the two of you because the mom

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and daughter foundation is- as well.

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Like, it's not rocky Yeah You

guys are not struggling there.

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Like, you've kind of settled on

a solid foundation, even though

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in the past there was some.

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So I'm gonna segue into the part

of the book about the mother wound.

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Um- Yeah.

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Yeah … but it's solid, and so that makes

the other ones easy to kinda jump between.

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Yeah.

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And I think that's, that ties

perfectly into what I believe the

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premise of this show is, right?

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Is working on the mother-daughter

relationship, is taking the time to

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devote to that as much as you can.

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And every relationship is so different,

but as much as you can, get that solid

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because it does, like any relationship in

our lives, like our romantic partnership

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or our relationship with our kids, if

you have them, that solidity overflows

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then into other areas of your life.

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Whereas if it's not, or if you have

conflict, or if there's things that

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aren't addressed or haven't been said,

then things fester, and that's a drain on

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our energy, you know, and our vitality.

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Yeah.

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I think lots of moms and

daughters want to fix it.

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I think it's really the knowing

how to and how to set things aside.

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So going through the book and your part,

like with the mother wound, you said

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one day you just called your mom up and

said, "You know, I forgive everything."

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So what happened?

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What have been the events

that caused a mother wound?

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Mm-hmm.

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And then how did you get to that

place where making that phone call

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and ready to just put it behind

the two of you so you could move

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on and have a better relationship?

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Yeah.

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What caused it, like Gigi said,

the biggest wound for me was

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her over- overly depending on

me emotionally at a young age.

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I became the oldest at home around

12, like right when all that was

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happening, 12, 14, maybe more like

14, and in that time we were going

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through so much, and she was a single

mom raising kids at home on her own.

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We were going through

financial challenges.

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There was a lot going on, and so while

I understood all of that, and at the

393

time, of course, I was there and wanted

to show up and do whatever I could, as

394

I got older, I started to feel like,

wow, that was too much for me to take

395

on emotionally at that age, right?

396

I wasn't ready for that or

totally equipped for that.

397

And so…

398

And of course, she didn't put

everything on me, but you know how that

399

happens and, and especially if it's

a single mom or something like that.

400

And so that was the biggest wound for

me, was just like feeling so tuned into

401

her and her needs and, and everything

there emotionally that that was really

402

hard for me to sort of, yeah, navigate.

403

And how I got to the place of

being able to make that phone

404

call, I mean, it took time.

405

Like Gigi said, when I first went

off to university, I went across the

406

country, and that wasn't because of

any conflict or something, but I think

407

unconsciously it was partially to create

some space and some ability to just

408

sort of be in my own energy for a while.

409

And I, you know, to give Gigi credit, my

mom credit, she was very open to that,

410

and she really encouraged me to do that.

411

So I'm really grateful.

412

So in those years, we were connected.

413

We definitely talked, but we

weren't so connected, right?

414

She really allowed me to

sort of individuate and…

415

Not sort of, to individuate.

416

And- So in that, you know,

we had some space and time.

417

And then as I got older, I guess

I just started on my own kind

418

of personal growth journey, and

self-reflection and things like…

419

And that's what eventually led me

to do a, a seminar, a workshop.

420

And in that workshop we really

talked about, I guess, just things

421

like making peace with the past.

422

And I just remember seeing that it did not

serve me to hold any resentment about the

423

way I was raised or about what happened.

424

The resentment only hurt me.

425

You know, I could think whatever

I thought, but I really wanted

426

to be free of that feeling of,

like, not feeling good about it.

427

And I also wanted my mom to be free of it.

428

I wanted us to have that clarity

in our relationship of like,

429

let's put this behind us and

let's start with a fresh slate.

430

And I think there's so much…

431

It can be hard to get to that place,

but if you can get to that place,

432

there's so much value in that because

it's just a relief all around.

433

I think when people hold onto

things, they think it's somehow

434

punishing the other person, or if you

forgive someone then you're, you're

435

saying it's right what they did.

436

And I just had to go, it's none of that.

437

It's just It is what it

is, and it was what it was.

438

And it also cr- a lot of

those experiences, those hard

439

experiences made me who I am.

440

You know?

441

Those were the formative experiences

for me that I'm actually really grateful

442

for now, which is, you know, was not

easy to say at that time, but it is now

443

with some time and space from it all.

444

It's like, wow, I'm so grateful

for the way all of it went.

445

And so that's kind of how I got

to that place of being able to,

446

to make that phone call and, and

what it's led to on the other side.

447

And that's why I wrote that chapter around

healing the mother wound and the father

448

wound, is because I feel so strongly

that it's work that's worth doing.

449

Because the freedom you can have on

the other side of that in yourself

450

and with your parents, whether by

the way you have a relationship with

451

them or not, or whether you have a

good relationship with them or not.

452

And that's why I wrote about my father

in the book as well, is I don't talk to

453

my father, and we haven't in many, many

years, probably over a decade, and I've

454

chosen not to have a relationship there.

455

So the healing can be done either

way, and you can really come

456

to this place where you feel

complete and you have that freedom.

457

I don't know how else to describe it.

458

That's what it feels like to me.

459

Yeah.

460

Gigi, what was it like for you

getting that phone call from McKenna?

461

A relief.

462

Very much so.

463

You know, I have five kids.

464

I always say each one has their own

issues, of course, with me, right?

465

And that's why I talk about in the book

as well, I think as a mother too, is being

466

willing to go into those hard places with

your kids where you did make mistakes.

467

I've made so many mistakes with my kids.

468

And so in that, I've been willing to

sit in the discomfort of my kids sharing

469

with me, you know, how they were hurt

or what happened because of this, and

470

being willing to get in and really try

to work those things through and heal.

471

And so I think it's important

on both sides, you know.

472

So McKenna is amazing that

she's willing to do that kind

473

of work, because it's hard work.

474

And then also me too.

475

You know, in our family, we've worked

to really, really heal the challenges

476

or the things or the mistakes, and it's

taken us years, but we have a super

477

harmonious family because of it, and I

think a lot of people shy away from it.

478

And then the other thing, like McKenna

said, I think a lot of time people

479

get stuck on either mother or the

daughter on The pain and the story,

480

and they won't let go of it, and then

they carry it through their life.

481

And I'm always like, it just, it…

482

She said it just takes away

from your quality of life.

483

Because if you have a mother and she

did, you know, a lot of things, maybe

484

they were terrible, maybe they weren't so

terrible, but you're able to forgive, it

485

never means you agree with what happened.

486

It just means that you're willing to

forgive and say, you know, "She's a

487

human being having a human experience."

488

So, yeah What advice would you give the

moms, Gigi, that their kids are coming

489

to them trying to express what hurt them,

trying to talk to them about what was

490

painful or what was a mistake or just

what was something they didn't really

491

need, and the moms are running from it?

492

That's one thing that I hear

from a lot of daughters- Yeah

493

is that they would love to have these

conversations, but their mom won't.

494

It's a lot of denial.

495

It's, I guess, just running away.

496

Like, the conversations

never actually get had.

497

What would you say to those

moms that struggle there?

498

Well, I think it's…

499

One part is it's very difficult

sitting as a mother, and as more as

500

my, more of my kids have kids and

everything, you just wa- you'll see,

501

they'll see the same thing, right?

502

Yeah.

503

Yeah.

504

Down through the years.

505

But as a mother sitting, and because

your child never knows e- your experience

506

and what you were going through at

that time, yeah, as a human being.

507

So, as a mother, sometimes there's a

feeling of when the child comes to you

508

with something, and they have these

versions, and then you think, "Oh, my

509

gosh, if you only knew what, what was

going on for me," because then there

510

feels like there's a blame, right?

511

And there's a blame, and then of

course there's guilt with that.

512

So, I would say two things.

513

I would say with the daughters,

it's your approach is huge, and your

514

approach in not going in with blame,

but just going in and saying, "Hey,

515

when this happened, this is the way

I felt," and not blaming your mother.

516

"These are the things that happened

for me, and this is where, you

517

know, it made me scared," or, "It

was too much," like McKenna said.

518

And then with a mother being able to

just listen and let it go through you.

519

And my biggest thing is I

just go in and apologize.

520

I don't agree with everything my kids

bring to me, to be honest with you.

521

I do not.

522

But I just go in and say, "I am so sorry.

523

So, so sorry you felt like that,

and I never intended such a thing.

524

And I know I make huge mistakes, and

maybe I didn't do this, and I didn't

525

do that, but you know, I love you,

and I really get that that hurt you.

526

And I so…

527

I get that."

528

And I think by allowing them then

to f- really feel heard, it gives

529

space for those things to dissipate.

530

But again, the tricky part is

sometimes people want to make

531

people wrong and feel bad.

532

You know what I'm saying?

533

Yeah.

534

Yeah.

535

So that's that maturity, even

though you're feeling this way,

536

is to go in and say, "This is

what happened, and it wasn't fair.

537

It wasn't anything that

should have happened to me."

538

And then the mother really also getting

it and just going, "You know, I get that.

539

I'm so, so sorry."

540

Yeah Yeah, and I will say that again,

speaking more to the daughters whose

541

mothers may not wanna have that

conversation or may not have- be in a

542

place to, or maybe they're not even here

anymore, their mothers, and they, they

543

still hold things is, is that's where we

really share an exercise in that chapter

544

that we call the releasing ritual, and

it's really a way to fully, no matter what

545

your relationship with your, your parent

is To fully work through some things in

546

yourself too, because again, you don't

have to have that opening with the other

547

person to make that peace within yourself.

548

And you can still have…

549

It's not maybe, doesn't feel as cathartic,

of course, as having a conversation with

550

a parent where you can do some kind of

clearing, but you can come a long way on

551

your own and, and we've helped a lot of

our clients do that through this exercise.

552

Yeah, to let some things go that you've

been holding onto and to make peace.

553

That can be a really big healing.

554

The other thing is there's a way of

communicating that can bridge connection.

555

If you go to your mother and you first of

all sit down and really think about what's

556

something you really appreciate about

her or something you wanna acknowledge

557

her for that is true, and you go to her

and you start the conversation that way,

558

by really sharing with her, like where

she added value or what it- what do you

559

really appreciate or admire about her?

560

And share that with her so she…

561

Then you have a bridge when

you start your conversation

562

that you can talk a little bit.

563

You see what I'm saying?

564

To find…

565

And it needs to be…

566

It can't be a compliment.

567

It needs to be really specific

about something that you

568

admire or respect in her.

569

Then often that opens the

conversation for deeper dialogue also.

570

Yeah.

571

That can drop that, that

initial like defense wall- Yeah.

572

Exactly … that she may put up of,

"What are you gonna bring to me now,"

573

or, "What did I do wrong again?"

574

kind of thing.

575

Yeah.

576

Absolutely.

577

Okay.

578

So shifting gears a little bit

to just other relationships

579

that we have with women.

580

In, in the book, one of the stories

that stood out to me, 'cause I thought

581

there was so much vulnerability in

there, was your story with asking your

582

friends, the group of friends that you

had made, of asking them what happened

583

in that relationship and what did you

do wrong, and kind of putting yourself

584

out there to hear what they had to say.

585

So share more of that story in

your words, and yeah, how'd you

586

gain the confidence for that?

587

'Cause that takes a lot of vulnerability.

588

Yeah.

589

So the story in brief was that in

590

Texas, and had moved back there

after many years living in San Diego,

591

and I had made a new, new-ish group

of friends in the past year or so.

592

And at first everything was really great.

593

We had a lot of fun.

594

It was a lot of couples me and

my husband were friends with.

595

We would do girls' nights,

the girls all together.

596

But there just started to be some things

where I felt like we were being left out

597

of things, and they were sort of talking

about things that felt like behind our

598

backs, and I just started to have some

signs that something was going on.

599

And- That was really

upsetting and really hard.

600

And I, you know, like I do with most

things, I went and called my mom and

601

talked with her about it and just said,

you know, "What would you do here?"

602

And she said, uh, she said,

"I would just bring it up."

603

I think that's something about

our family is that we just dive

604

headfirst into things, you know?

605

She, we…

606

I would so much rather have the

conflict in GG2, the conflict,

607

the hard conversation, than

have something fester unsaid.

608

You know, it's so uncomfortable to be

in those situations where it's like you

609

know something's going on with either

another person or a group of people

610

and no- nobody wants to bring it up.

611

Yeah.

612

To me, that's harder.

613

Even though what ended up

happening was incredibly hard,

614

still I'm grateful I did it.

615

So she said, "I would go directly

to them at the next girls' night and

616

ask, like, what's going on here?"

617

You know?

618

And basically, I, I followed the format

that she talks about because this is

619

what we, she's taught me to do, and we

talk with our, our clients, and we've

620

done in our family, which is I went in

there and I first just acknowledged.

621

I said, you know, "Listen…"

622

I sat down with this group of women

and I said, "I, I'm so grateful

623

for these friendships, you know?

624

It's meant so much to me moving

back to Austin and having a great

625

community here," and I just really

acknowledged the things about them

626

that had been really meaningful to me.

627

And then I said, "I've noticed that

it seems like there's something going

628

on or something unsaid, and I would

really love to open up the conversation

629

of, like, what is that, you know?

630

Is there something I did or we did?

631

I'd love to talk that through."

632

And it ended up being a very, very

intense experience where each woman

633

basically went around the circle and

told me all the things she didn't,

634

uh, like about me, which used the word

resonate, but all the things she didn't

635

like about me and why I just wasn't a

fit, basically, to be their friends.

636

And that sounds very, like, high

level, but it was extremely traumatic.

637

By the time they were done, I

was, like, sobbing hysterically.

638

And it ended up being…

639

It was a really hard time because

basically I got ki- sort of pushed

640

out of that friend group with no real

reasoning underneath it, other than

641

they just decided kind of that they

didn't like me, and there were certain

642

small things that I ended up getting

an understanding of that maybe had

643

happened, but nothing really huge.

644

And interestingly enough, I know

now two other women who were

645

in that community that have had

similar situations happen to them.

646

And so in that, maybe in the

moment, I would've said I'm, I'm

647

not glad that I did that because it

was extremely hard to go through.

648

But in the end, once I grieved

and I healed from having an

649

experience like that, it really

highlighted for me so many things.

650

First of all, I, I was able

to self-reflect on some

651

things I did need to work on.

652

You know, the, the things that

they did bring up, I really

653

tried to reflect on, like, what

was my part in those and what…

654

how could I grow?

655

But the other thing was it just

really made it clear to me, like,

656

what did I want in friendship?

657

What did I value in friendship?

658

What were the qualities of the

people I wanted to have in my life?

659

And so that's been…

660

it's just given me a whole different

paradigm on the other side of that, so.

661

I think I could have done that one-on-one.

662

Hmm.

663

I don't think I could have done

that in a group and opened it up

664

for everyone to tell you that's…

665

And that's where I talk about the

vulnerability, 'cause I could have

666

easily, like, called somebody up or

gone on, like, "Let's go have drinks

667

and, and chat," with one person.

668

But to let a whole- Yeah … group

just kind of go around the room, whew.

669

I don't know that I would recommend

it- Yeah … for most people.

670

Let's say that.

671

I- Not my fire.

672

Uh, yeah, and when I told her to go

do it, I, I had no idea that they

673

would, you know, be that intense.

674

No idea.

675

It just, you wouldn't think that, right?

676

And like she said, it's so interesting,

'cause two women reached out to her over

677

the years who had the same experience.

678

So, you know, in that, there's

a leader somewhere in that.

679

Yeah.

680

There's so much- Yeah.

681

So What we talk about in that chapter is

just the culture of mean girls, you know?

682

And that unfortunately, it, it seems to

be a part of our culture, and I don't

683

know why or where that started or … But

it's something we talk about a lot

684

as one of the values Gigi's instilled

in, in me and in all her daughters

685

is, and son, is, um, like she said,

respect and kindness and inclusivity,

686

and that's so important for us.

687

Like, when we lead our programs and

we lead our retreats, the women will

688

tell you, Gigi is on a mission to

be like everybody feels included.

689

Everybody gets welcomed in this way.

690

If something comes up,

we talk about it, right?

691

And it's brought up in such a way

that, yeah, that we don't create these

692

sort of behind-the-scenes things that

break down relationships, you know?

693

And, and it's sneaky.

694

You know, I go on in that chapter to tell

a story about where I unintentionally,

695

unconsciously, a few years later, said

something about another woman when she

696

wasn't present, and she overheard me, and

it was totally not meant to be anything

697

terrible, but it, it made her feel bad.

698

You know?

699

It made her feel terrible.

700

And I was like, "Oh…"

701

And she was courageous enough to bring

it to me, and I was like, "Oh, my God.

702

I can't believe that after having

had an experience like that, I would

703

do something like that," right?

704

I know better.

705

This is something I'm writing about.

706

It's something we talk about in our work.

707

I know better, and yet I

still did it unconsciously.

708

And so what we call gossip is, like,

talking about anyone who isn't present

709

in a way that, that you wouldn't talk

to them to their face or be … In

710

a way that doesn't lift them up or

that you wouldn't be really open with

711

them about if, if you were gonna have

a conversation with them about it.

712

So in that, it's, it's a sneaky thing.

713

It's, it's a tough one, but yeah,

it's just something we feel really

714

strongly about is Women being kind to

each other and, and not just women,

715

people being kind to each other.

716

Yeah.

717

Yeah.

718

I'm convinced that one of the- I'm

raising our daughters that way.

719

Oh, yeah, for sure.

720

I'm convinced one of the underlying

factors of mean girls is a mean mom.

721

Mm-hmm.

722

Because they, you learn it from somewhere.

723

Yeah.

724

You learn how to do that and

what to say and, yeah, I, I think

725

it just starts with a mean mom.

726

Yeah, I think sometimes … I definitely,

with the women I work with, I always

727

am on, you know, you can't let your

daughters go and start talking bad.

728

You have to correct that,

and you have to model it.

729

And, you know, you can say mean moms,

but also sometimes it's unconscious moms.

730

That's part of it, too.

731

Mm-hmm.

732

Women that are just unconscious.

733

Thank you so much.

734

They, people don't know their impact.

735

They don't know their impact, right?

736

And if they really, like the girl

that brought it to McKenna, she

737

didn't realize she even did it, right?

738

She was unconscious for a moment.

739

So often there is the mean part, but

also I think there's just also there's

740

people are unconscious about it.

741

Yeah.

742

There's so much that's modeled

to us in general in our culture,

743

you know, too, in terms of, uh,

and I think in school and so on.

744

So there's, there's layers of

complexity to all of it, right?

745

And, and all we can really do in all

of that is go, "What's the part that

746

I play, or how can I make a change in

myself and in my relationships with

747

other women, and in the way," like Gigi

said, "I model this for my daughter?"

748

That's all we can really do, and

hopefully then enough of us do

749

that and it has a ripple effect.

750

Yeah.

751

So bringing it back to the two

of you, speaking of being kind

752

and knowing that conflict exists

in every relationship, what is

753

repair like between the two of you?

754

When a hurt does happen unintentionally

or something impacted you negatively

755

from the other person, how do you guys

repair to keep the relationship healthy?

756

We're very direct.

757

Yeah.

758

We, we come, we come and say, you

know, just like, "You know, that

759

really hurt my feelings," or, "I really

felt disrespected in that moment."

760

And the thing is, I think both

of us are really willing, instead

761

of being defensive, we're really

willing to go, "Oh, okay, I'm sorry."

762

Because again, it might have, I

might not have thought I was being

763

disrespectful, uh, but the way

it landed for McKenna, it was.

764

And so I have to honor

that's her experience.

765

You know, I think that's the

biggest thing is instead of being

766

defensive, going, "Oh, okay.

767

Again, so sorry about that.

768

You know, maybe I didn't mean that at

all, but that it landed that way on

769

you, you know, I'll, I'll definitely

be careful about that in the future."

770

Yeah.

771

So ours is really well-developed just

'cause we've been doing it a long time.

772

So but it is a certain kind

of directness that we have.

773

Yeah.

774

And I don't think so.

775

I think also just if there's something

to take ownership for or apologize for,

776

then that, that can be part of it, too.

777

So it can either be bringing it to someone

and saying, "Hey, when you did this, I,

778

I, I felt this way," or w- like Gigi said,

or it can be we self-reflect and we go,

779

"Wait a second, I was acting this way."

780

Yeah.

781

And then we bring that to the other

person, and we say, "Hey, I'm, I'm

782

so sorry, I was totally out of line

there," or- Yeah … "I realize that I

783

was frustrated because this other thing

is happening in life and I brought…

784

You know, I took it out on you," or…

785

So I think having an open door

of communication as much as

786

possible is how we repair.

787

Mm.

788

Yeah, and we let go.

789

We don't hold things.

790

That's the thing, is we,

we don't hold onto it.

791

That's right on.

792

I think there's a narrative in, in

general in popular culture, and I

793

t- I think I talk about this in the

book, I can't remember, but I see it

794

a lot in relationship, in marriages,

and, you know, boyfriend/girlfriend

795

or girlfriend/girlfriend,

whatever it might be.

796

I see this narrative, and I

think it's true in families, too,

797

that it's like the drama, right?

798

They talk about what's going on in

the family drama or between the, you

799

know, mother and daughter or between

these people, and that's, again, it's

800

sort of like that gossipy, drama-y

feeling, and sometimes that can feel

801

just like what you do, or it can feel

in some ways exciting or something,

802

gives you something to talk about.

803

But we…

804

I really believe, and I'm sure I got

this from you, Gigi, but I always

805

say that, um, conflict is, can be…

806

Conflict is healthy.

807

That some degree of conflict is necessary,

I think, in a healthy relationship, but

808

drama is optional, and I think drama just

creates so many breakdowns in the end.

809

So that's just, again, a premise

that we hold is that we don't want

810

drama in our relationship, and I

have that in my marriage as well.

811

It just doesn't serve the life we want.

812

We would rather be out living

the lives we want and having a

813

great time and being connected.

814

And of course, if things come up, then

we address them, and we have those

815

conversations in service to us having

peace and harmony so we can move forward.

816

Yeah.

817

What advice would you both give…

818

McKenna, you can speak to a

daughter, an adult daughter.

819

Um, Gigi, you can speak to a

mom who has an adult daughter.

820

But what advice would you give them

on either healing or reconnecting

821

their relationship, or just

introducing repair into it?

822

That way it stays healthy if they really

don't have a good repair system First

823

of all, as a mother, like I said, if

your children are bringing things to

824

you, is being willing to listen without

Taking it personally, you know, is

825

just to listen again that this is your

child's experience, and to just sit

826

and let that go in, and don't defend.

827

And you can say, like I said, you

know, "I'm really sorry about that.

828

I did not intend that.

829

I'm really sorry that that happened."

830

But the willingness to listen

deeply without reacting or

831

responding instead of reacting.

832

Sitting and then responding and

just saying, you know, "Wow, I

833

never, I never knew that that's

the experience you had there.

834

You know, I'm sorry for that."

835

So I think that opening.

836

You know, I had a conversation with the

daughter of a friend of mine a couple

837

weeks ago, and we went out together in the

evening, and she's going through a hard

838

time, and we talked for, like, five hours.

839

And basically what I did is just

listened, and she felt validated.

840

And in it, I also said, like, things

that I saw or my experiences from

841

my own life, but I didn't try to

get her to think a different way

842

or to change what she was doing.

843

And at the end of the conversation, she

said, "I've never had a conversation

844

like this before in my life.

845

I wish I could have this with my mother."

846

And all I saw in that moment is the

reason why she couldn't have it with her

847

mother, because her mother thinks she's

protecting her by telling her all the ways

848

that these things could go wrong, right?

849

But what she does is she actually

separates herself from her

850

daughter when she does that, yeah?

851

So that's, I think, for moms, is to

realize your daughters are different

852

people than you, and you can share your

concerns, but they're gonna choose, and

853

they're gonna make their own choices.

854

And the more you can be a listener

and really, really there to listen

855

without any judgment or attitude,

that's the way to heal a relationship,

856

you know, is to get where somebody

else is coming from and to sit in that

857

even though it's very uncomfortable.

858

And even though you may feel

enormous amount of guilt, you know,

859

too, is to set that aside and just

realize you're there to be present

860

and to heal this relationship, so.

861

Yeah.

862

So.

863

I think that's really beautifully said.

864

It's like, it's this, this feeling

of set your daughters free- Yeah,

865

it is … in the sense of, like,

they are, they are who they are.

866

If it's a grown woman, at that

point she is who she is, and

867

you're not gonna probably change

her, and by trying to change her,

868

it just creates more resistance.

869

And so if you can let that go and just

get curious about her instead, about who

870

she is and, and sort of set that aside,

then like Gigi said, that creates so much

871

opening, and that's the perfect bridge

into the same is true for daughters.

872

So for daughters is to set your mothers

free, and understand that you'll never

873

understand what they went through.

874

And you think you know them, but what

if you set all of that aside, all your

875

opinions and all your things you think

she should do differently, 'cause we

876

all have that with each other, and you

just got curious about who is she now?

877

And you might not like certain things

or think she should do th- things

878

differently, but if you set all that

aside, then this, this resistance or

879

this, this conflict energy that is so

often in these relationships can start

880

to ease, and you can bridge to a new

kind of relationship with one another.

881

And as far as, like, a, another

tool that we talked about was the

882

acknowledgement too, and that can

feel difficult to do for either party.

883

Both people can use this,

a mother or a daughter.

884

But it is for a while, instead of

focusing on all the things that frustrate

885

you or the things you, you know,

the conflicts, the things you wanna

886

talk through, is if you can set that

aside for a little while temporarily.

887

It's not that you're not gonna ever

talk about it with your mother or your

888

daughter, but if you can set it aside

temporarily and just focus on the things

889

you appreciate and, and voice some of

those things, then you start to build,

890

again, like a bridge to a different kind

of relationship with the other person.

891

Yeah.

892

And so that…

893

I think those two things of

acknowledgement and letting go of any

894

expectations or things you think the

other person should be, or views of

895

how you think they are, and getting

curious instead, those can be so

896

profound, even if only one of you does

it, by the way, because in relationship

897

you can only ever control your half.

898

And then from there, if you start to

build that bridge to a little bit more

899

peace or a little bit more harmony or

maybe even some fun in your relationship

900

with the other person, then there

can come a time where you can have

901

some of those harder conversations

from a very different place Yeah.

902

Well, can you both share a bit about

your work and, like, working together?

903

You guys spoke of retreats.

904

Tell us, tell the listeners more about

it, more about what you guys do together.

905

Yeah, we run a coaching business.

906

We run a podcast we also have called

Way of the Muse, and, uh, we've been

907

doing that for a couple of years now.

908

We talk about all different kinds of

topics, everything from, you know,

909

communication, a little bit like what

we're talking about today, and that

910

could be communication in relationships,

in families, and in business.

911

We talk about business-related

topics, seasons in life.

912

It's just a mother-daughter kind

of conversation, but also really

913

from our work and what we do.

914

So we run retreats inter- internationally

with women and masterminds.

915

Yeah, right now what we do is we

have a year-long mastermind, and it's

916

predominantly entrepreneurial women.

917

And so it's a year program, and in

the program we always lead one major

918

retreat, sometimes two, and so those

retreats we do all over the world.

919

I've been doing retreats

for over 30 years.

920

So we bring those women together, and

like Makena was talking about, the women

921

come to relax that are busy, busy ladies,

and they get this opportunity to be with

922

other women that are super empowering,

and we are absolutely inclusive.

923

If any clicks happen,

I'm I'm the drill sergeant.

924

And out of that experience, what women

do is they get more clarity about their

925

businesses, their lives, and just-

Careers … because I've been doing my

926

work so long that we work in all aspects

of their lives, in their relationship,

927

with their families, in their businesses.

928

So how to really design

exceptional life, you know?

929

Go for your dreams and go

for what you want, and that's

930

what we do then also in our…

931

the year-long program, and then

we do some private coaching too.

932

Yeah, and the book really came out of

the desire to share our story, 'cause

933

it was really the story that was on

my heart to write, but also to share,

934

you know, so much of what I talk

about in the book that Gigi taught me.

935

I'm not the only one.

936

It's been the women that

we've worked with, right?

937

She's mentored…

938

Some of her clients have been with her

and with us for 20 years or more, and in

939

that there's been this, this mentorship,

and I feel like the journey that I've

940

gone on is why the subtitle of the book…

941

I don't even think we've said the

title of the book, which is The Wisdom

942

That Raised Me: A Daughter's Journey

into Wholeness, Wisdom, and Womanhood.

943

And it really has been this journey for

me of feels like becoming the woman I

944

was meant to be, kind of peeling away

all these layers of the personality I

945

had created to kind of cope with, you

know, the challenges I went through in

946

life and, and peel, peeling the ones

away that didn't really serve me anymore

947

and stepping into my dreams and stepping

into more and more of the life that I

948

really, really wanted and, and becoming

someone that I don't even recognize.

949

You know, the woman I was 10 years ago

would've been like, "Whoa, that is…"

950

Could not have even imagined

that that's who I would become

951

in a really good way, you know?

952

And so that journey, I think,

in some way, shape, or form,

953

is what we do with our clients.

954

They really step into what is the

life they want in all areas, and,

955

and who is the person they wanna be?

956

How do they wanna feel?

957

And then really helping them

with tools like we share in the

958

book to, to go on that journey.

959

Yeah.

960

Well, I am going to leave the

link of the book, to get the

961

book in the show notes for sure.

962

Thank you.

963

But I talk a lot about how healing doesn't

have to look one way, which is why I bring

964

so many people into the podcast, because

the way that I help women heal is just one

965

way, and the way that you guys are doing

it is a different way, in that there's

966

a lot of different modalities and that

women should choose the best one for them.

967

And so I love that you guys have, you

know, your program and also you wrote the

968

book and just have guidance for women.

969

If they are interested and some

things that you said with the…

970

said today resonates with them, where can

they find your work, and where can they go

971

learn more about what you guys are doing?

972

I think the book is a

great place to start.

973

The other place to go would be our

website, which is wayofthemuse.com,

974

and then our podcast is also called Way

of the Muse, and you can search for that

975

on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, YouTube,

wherever you, you listen to your podcasts.

976

Yeah.

977

Yeah.

978

Thank you guys for being here.

979

Thank you so much.

980

Thank you.

981

Yeah.

982

Yeah.

983

Yeah, it's nice.

984

I think it's such a great topic.

985

When I was looking, there was

only one or two mother-daughter

986

shows I could find out there, and

I was like, "Oh, this is awesome.

987

I love what you're doing here."

988

And you have a beautiful receptivity.

989

Mm.

990

Thank you.

991

Yeah.

992

So thanks for having us, yeah.

993

Yes.

994

Thank you guys for being

here and sharing your work.

995

Yeah.

996

Awesome.

997

That's all for today's episode of The

Mother-Daughter Relationship Show.

998

Thanks so much for

spending this time with me.

999

I hope you picked up some valuable

insights that you can start using right

00:54:10,958 --> 00:54:14,398

away in your own relationship to create

deeper connection and understanding.

00:54:15,017 --> 00:54:17,268

If something from today's

episode resonated with you,

00:54:17,488 --> 00:54:18,457

don't keep it to yourself.

00:54:18,898 --> 00:54:21,997

Share it with a mother or daughter in

your life who needs to hear this message.

00:54:22,468 --> 00:54:25,257

And while you're at it, please

consider leaving a rating and

00:54:25,258 --> 00:54:28,358

review so we can reach more families

and transform the way mothers and

00:54:28,358 --> 00:54:29,587

daughters relate to each other.

00:54:30,357 --> 00:54:34,627

For those ready to take the next

step, you can visit my website to

00:54:34,628 --> 00:54:38,427

learn more about my private coaching

programs and my program designed

00:54:38,427 --> 00:54:40,278

specifically for mother-daughter pairs.

00:54:40,987 --> 00:54:44,417

Whether you're dealing with communication

challenges, life transitions, or

00:54:44,417 --> 00:54:47,597

just wanna strengthen an already

good relationship, I'm here to help.

00:54:48,357 --> 00:54:49,548

Thank you so much for listening.

00:54:49,868 --> 00:54:51,098

I'll see you in the next one.