Dawn Damon: Well, my guest is an author, grief-informed NEURODIVERGENCE specialist, and the founder of ADHD holistically, where she empowers individuals with ADHD to transform daily struggles into opportunities for growth and self-discovery. She has 25 years of experience as an educator and a background in ADHD coaching. Please welcome my guest today. Dr. Jennifer Dall.

Hello. We are so glad that you are joining us today. I've been excited about this conversation with you because I know so many women who have been struggling with this for so long to get a diagnosis. How did that moment for you when you got the diagnosis shift the way that you understood yourself?

Dr. Jennifer Dall: Well, I think it really helped me get some validation, like this was really somebody who finally agreed with what I had been saying and thinking for so long. So, it was really great actually. It was not a miracle cure. You know, we don't have that, but it just kind of helped me feel wow. I was right. All these things I had been thinking I was right. Yes. And so that validation was really helpful.

Dawn Damon: I agree with that. That validation can really be a game-changer because it's not in your head anymore. You don't feel alone. You don't feel well, maybe you still feel a little bit alone, but there's something powerful about it, not that we want labels, but it does bring understanding.

Dr. Jennifer Dall: Right. It does, it very much brings understanding. And for me, I had a big background in education. I had training, and I had a doctorate. I slowly, over time, started seeing these things and believing these things, and getting other people to believe them was hard, you know? Yeah. First of all, the knowledge about women and ADHD is lacking. It's getting better, but it's lacking. And just for so many times, being told, oh, no. No, no, no. All these reasons why. No. You know, you doubt yourself. And so finally, I think having the knowledge and the strength to just finally go and say, look, no, we need to talk about this, and these are all the reasons why.

Dawn Damon: Yeah. I'm so glad you did that. So when you found out that you had ADHD, all of a sudden, your past started to make sense. Did you have it in childhood, or was it more the adult onset?

Dr. Jennifer Dall: I had it in childhood. I mean, that's one of the things, it's not really adult onset. It's, I think, adult awareness. Okay. Um, so you've always had it, it was just, had it categorized, categorized, or misdiagnosed or hidden? Masked, hidden away. Um, especially with girls. And so it was, it was seen as other things a lot of times with, I think, girls, it's more, it comes out, some of the things come out more as like. Personality issues, maybe, you know, you are lazy or you forgetful, or why do you do this and not so, so people look at it like you're doing these things on purpose, um, as opposed to, oh, maybe there's something else going on here.

So, back to your question. Yeah. I. When I really found out, even before then, I, I started seeing more and more things and that was part of it is every time I read something or I looked at one of my students differently or I learned something else, there were so many little things that just clicked and it just really built up and there, and there's still things I will read or hear about things having to do with ADHD that they're learning. I mean, there's so much and. Then I'll remember something, and it will just really click in my head about that was what was going on. That's what is going on. That's why I did this or why I did that. And I think probably a lot of your listeners feel that way too. They'll, they'll hear somebody talk about something, and in some part of their brain, they're like, oh, wow, that's what that was. I do that. I did that. Yeah, when I was a kid, when I was a teenager, as an adult.

Dawn Damon: Yes, totally. I have a friend I'm thinking of, her name is Missy, and, um, shout out to you, Missy, but because I'm gonna send her this and have her listen to it. But, you know, she would say now, knowing that that's what she has, you know, she was always running late. She was always in trouble with her mother. She would leave the house and, and leaving the house. For a job or for school meant going outside and then coming back in. I forgot my keys. Going outside, coming back in. I forgot my homework. Going outside, coming back in, and just, you know, by the time she was in her teens, she had kind of a lower self-esteem, if you will. Mm-hmm. Because she felt like she was. A loser or failing or not living up to everybody's expectations, is that what you kind of experience or do you see that others definitely.

Dr. Jennifer Dall: I see that, and I experience that, you know, organization is hard and time management, just, not even just time management, but like an understanding of time is hard in a way that's so hard to explain. And with girls and women, then, as I said, it can be. Misdiagnosed or not seen as by her mom as this is something you're doing on purpose, or you're lazy, or you're stupid. Or it can also then be misdiagnosed in certain ways as depression and anxiety. And sometimes that goes with it. There is a correlation, but sometimes, you know, trying to keep it all together is very tiring.

And so if you go to a doctor and you're like, I'm always tired, I'm forgetful, I'm all these things, a lot of times what they go to is that, oh, well, here, I think you're depressed. Here are some antidepressants. Which doesn't help you, doesn't solve the problem. No. Doesn't get to the bottom of it. Doesn't help you build skills or tools or anything to really work with it. So I can completely understand what Missy is saying. I get it, Missy.

Dawn Damon: Yeah. And so, but you said tired a couple of times, so, is that part of it? Do people with ADHD, do they struggle with sleep, or what are some of the symptoms they can struggle with?

Dr. Jennifer Dall: Okay. There's sort of a, a revenge procrastination thing that can go on, so it's time to go to bed. For some of us, then, like, this is the time I finally have for myself, and so I stay up later. You might be really interested in something, and so you're not going to bed. Getting those sleep routines that you know are good is har is hard to stay on. Another reason I believe that we are tired is that we spend a lot of time masking, a lot of time trying to figure out how to do things.

So, your friend Missy is getting out the door, getting out with her things. This takes energy. Neurotypical people don't expend to do some of these things. And so you're tired because you're expending more energy to show up, to do the things you need to do to remember. And so that can then be seen as other things also. So I think, I mean, I think everyone's tired right now for one thing, but yeah, I would agree with that. Yes. But yeah, we spend more energy trying to do things. That is a struggle. And so just like any other time when you're doing something that's hard for you or not, I mean, it's hard for you, you get more tired.

Dawn Damon: Mm-hmm. That makes a lot of sense because it, you're calling forth all of your faculties and your energy, and you get stress hormones just to, yeah. Accomplish this task. And if the stories you're telling yourself and you've been told are that, you know, you're being difficult, or you're being lazy.

Dr. Jennifer Dall: You know, you've got that going on inside your head, too. One of the things I've noticed, I know for me and for a lot of other people and for me, is that there are certain things you're really good at. Okay? The things you're interested in, that you hyperfocus on, that you love, you are really good at, and you can just spend all the time, and you can get it done.

And if people then don't understand why, then there are other things that it's not just that you're not good at it. It's that we're really interest-based. So if we're not interested in something, it's very hard. It's very difficult to, to get it done, to make it happen. Whereas some people are just like, okay, I'm not interested in this. I'm just gonna do it anyway. Some of those tasks, some of those things can be hard, very, almost painfully hard for us to just go and do. So you're. People see on the one hand, you are so smart, you're doing so great in this. What is the problem? Why aren't you doing this? Mm-hmm. And so they're taking that as like, it's a choice. It's a decision when it's not really.

Dawn Damon: Yes. The way you are. I, I have not heard you say a word a moment ago. I think you said revenge and procrastination. I'm not sure if that's what you said.

Dr. Jennifer Dall: Yes.

Dawn Damon: I'm so interested in hearing a little bit about more of that, and then you said your interests-based people, and that's enlightening for us to hear that, that you can hyperfocus when there's interest. Is that because your brain is turned on and alert?

Dr. Jennifer Dall: Yes. Okay, so the questions were about interest-based and about revenge procrastinations. Yes. So we'll start with the, the revenge procrastination. Okay. I think that this happens. We're busy all day, we're doing all these things, and you know, if you're a mom and you have a job and you, you're doing all of these things, and it's time to go to bed, and you know, okay, I should go to bed 'cause I have to get up. But like, finally, that's my time to myself. That's my time when I can just do whatever I want, which is probably, it could be one of my hobbies or something I want to do, but it could also just be staring at the television. Not doing anything productive. And so it's this idea of, of kind of, I'm not sure who you're getting revenge on.

Ultimately, it's yourself. You're only really hurting yourself here, but. You're not going to bed because this is the time that you have when you can finally do things. So it's that kind of, that idea that, yeah. Okay. Then the other question was very interesting, being interest-based, right?

So, ADHD neurodivergent minds are heavily interest-based. So, we can hyper focus. That's how, and you know, your friends' parents, partners, and coworkers, they may get frustrated because if I'm really interested in something, I can spend all kinds of time doing it. But if there's no interest in it, I have a really hard time getting it done. So something that I absolutely hate is anything having to do with bills, money, and taxes, and I know I need to do it, and I'm an adult. When my husband was still alive, I think I had a little more push and accountability for it. But since he passed away, it's been much harder to get that interest to get that done, whereas other people just do it.

So if we're interest-based, we'll do it. We're on it. It's just very hard if there's no interest there to get something done. And that's another thing that people can really misinterpret about what's going on. So I always like to talk about, if you can have those conversations, if your partner, your spouse, your boss, your friend, whoever you're involved with, with this, can kind of come to an understanding like that's what's going on. This is not being difficult; this is not trying to be lazy or get out of doing something. And so, looking at this, having this conversation about why you do really well with this and why you don't, and then looking at ways to work with it. Because we're not trying to excuse anything but say, say you're talking about chores in the house, like unloading the dishwasher. You know, you just, people who don't go through this don't understand, but it's not just being defiant that you don't wanna. It's not just that you don't wanna load the dishwasher, it's just that for cer, for there'll be certain tasks where it is just almost painful to do them. And so what I like to talk about is, well, then if you're in a job or in a house, there are many tasks, there are many chores, and so dividing them up maybe differently, you know, sometimes it's a, maybe these are women's tasks, well, but maybe we could do this differently. I don't really mind doing this other thing. I can't explain why I don't mind taking out the trash. I can't explain why I just hate doing the dishwasher, but if you don't care or you're willing to swap, you know, having that conversation of that kind of thing. I dunno if that makes any sense.

Dawn Damon: Yeah, that's really good. Yeah. Finding what works. Yes.

I wanna talk about that because that's something that you do today, which is that you help women, first of all, do they already know that they have this diagnosis? What if I'm asking you a couple of different questions here, but what if a woman is like, I don't know why I can't just do the simple stuff. It's gotta affect her self-esteem and her self-worth. Mm-hmm. How does she find her diagnosis, and then is that something you help them with, or do they already have a diagnosis once you connect with them and coach them?

Dr. Jennifer Dall: So I don't diagnose. Okay. You would need to go through a psychologist for an actual diagnosis if that's what you want. The people that I talk to either have the diagnosis, and they know, or they simply suspect. And a lot of what we talk about is whether it's something that you suspect or it's something that you've gone to the doctor for, something that brought you to this point. You heard something, you've noticed something, something has been tickling your brain, oh, I think I have, might have ADHD because I always do this or I always do that. And so this is showing up in your life in a way that is impacting you. Right. That's why you came. You go to the doctor because you have a sore throat or because you know you always have a headache. Here, you start with what brought you here. What brought this to your mind? And if it's, if you don't have a diagnosis, if, if you think you have ADHD, because you have a hard time organizing your thoughts.

You know, it almost doesn't matter if you have ADHD or not. If we can talk about it, if we can work on it, if we can find little subtle shifts and strategies that help you manage it and it doesn't impact you as much, then that's really the goal. Like, like I said, I don't diagnose. You have to go to a, a medical doctor, a psychiatrist who does all kinds of tests, and that's a whole other thing. So I like to look at it as there's a reason you're, you're talking to me, or some things come up. Mm-hmm.

So let's focus on this. And sometimes it's something really easy and like low-hanging fruit. And sometimes it's something really big that's impacting your relationship or your job or really is impacting your life. So again, little things, 'cause ADHD wants to take it all on ADHD wants to read this 500-page book and get all the answers. And make all the changes today, which never works.

Dawn Damon: So, yeah. I did not know that, that ADHD people and may everybody's different, but yeah right, that maybe they wanna take it all on or they think they can do so much. I had someone working for me one time, and she would just say, oh, I can do that. I can do that. She would just take more and more and more on, but she could not manage time to save her life. I mean, she not only couldn't manage time, but she couldn't grasp time. Yes. And she couldn't be. That's exactly it. And it did affect our relationship at the end of the day. It was like, I'm kind of really rigid with time, and she didn't know what time even was. Is that classic?

And so, yeah, hard to allocate to explain the concept of time. And the other thing is, you know, you were talking about your friends always being late. Well, and that's what people think. Many people with ADHD are often late, but also people, and I fall in this category, where I'm really early, and it's not becaus,e like, I've known people who are like, you have to be on time, and to be rude, late is rude. It's not that. It's just like my ability to understand time is so poor that I just have to get there early. I'm always there. Early or else I am late. Mm-hmm. And so some of your listeners may understand this, so you know, I'm the one who brings a book, or now with the phones, you know, you have your phone, you can play games. But, you know, I'd always have a book because if I had to be somewhere at 10, and even now with like, you know, you can look on maps and it's gonna take you 25 minutes right now to get there, and you can add in 10 minutes for parking. And you would think, okay, so you just leave at this time. That's all there is to it, but like, we'll. No, it's this big murky area. So then you leave even earlier 'cause you don't have that concept of time, and that is so hard to explain to people who have a concept of time.

Dawn Damon: Yes. But it sounds like you have taught yourself some tools created some habits for yourself or, um, developed a mindset around this. So that you can thrive, and I'd love to hear about that. Are these the same tools and skills that you are now coaching and teaching other women? What are some of those?

Dr. Jennifer Dall: Yeah, some of them are,and like you said, everyone's different and things change. So what works now may not work later. One of the big changes I went through is, that I left education because I wanted to be able to work with people on my own and be there. An entrepreneur not being tied to bell schedules and calendar schedules has been a huge, huge shift that has been a real challenge. And so I have tried so many things, and what I have learned, and I'm working on learning and talking to people about is figuring out what times of day I do better and really, really being truthful with myself and honest about it.

How much time can I really work mentally? Being honest again and truthful and kind to myself about that, and I've learned to, I'm working on breaking things into smaller bits, which ironically is when I taught and when I taught special ed, is something that we would do, you know, task analysis, breaking things down into smaller things because with ADHD can be, oh, I'm going to write this chapter for a book. And that sounds easy. And it’s not that it's hard, it's just the management time of it, of these are all the steps, and these are the order they have to go into, and this is how much I can get done today. And then at the end of the day or the end of the week, sitting back and saying, okay, this is what I got done, and letting myself be okay with it. So this is something I really try to talk to people about: what is really manageable? Why do you have to do it? What are the steps, and how can we just get started and do that?

Dawn Damon: Yeah. Without being overwhelmed. That's so important, and I imagine that the women you work with really appreciate your insights because you're living it. You're not just someone who understands it because of a book, and you've learned it, but you are living it. And I loved your authenticity. Just no,w that said, I've learne,d and I'm still learning, and hey, I, we don't solve this, we manage it. You know, this is Yeah. My reality, right?

Dr. Jennifer Dall: Yeah. And, something I've gotten into a lot lately is this idea of little mini experiments. I find that if I tell myself, this is an experiment, I'm going to try this because with a DH adhd, I wanna say, oh, this is a great plan. I'm gonna do the rest of my life. I'm gonna get outta calendar, I'm gonna block it. I'm gonna like block it all out, and it doesn't work that way. So this is an experiment. This week, today, this month, I'm going to, I'm gonna try this. It's an experiment. It works, it gives me some data. It doesn't work. We go from there. And, I, the people I've talked to about this have also really liked that idea of this is just an experiment.

Dawn Damon: Beautiful. That gives you permission, takes the pressure off, doesn't it?

Dr. Jennifer Dall: It does. And as a woman with ADHD who grew up, you know, with masking these are the things you're supposed to do to be a good girl and a smart girl. And, and, and when you're smart in certain ways, everybody expects you to be smart. Always. And so letting go of some of that and, you know, let's experiment, let's have fun. Let's see what works today.

Yeah. And when I talk to people, just because it works for me doesn't mean it's gonna work for you. You know, sometimes you'll pick up a book. It's like the five steps to, you know, having the perfect life and. That doesn't always work for lots of reasons.

Dawn Damon: Right? And so you're helping women, I think, probably love themselves, accept themselves, stop the shaming. Can I have a toolbox?

Dr. Jennifer Dall: And that freedom to change it because everything can change so fast in your life, you know, you can lose your job, something can happen in your community or neighborhood. I got hit by a guy on a bike, and I got a traumatic brain injury, you know, like all these things, and then you just keep wow, picking up pieces and figuring out next steps,

Dawn Damon: And that's what you do. Wow. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us today, Dr. Jennifer. You offer courses and workshops. You are equipping women, and you're supporting them and helping them reframe their narratives and unlock their potential. Thank you so much. How can we get a hold of you or find you?

Dr. Jennifer Dall: My website is adhdholistically.com, and you can go on ther,e and I have my 30 hacks. They're real quick and easy things that you could try. I'm on Instagram. And threads. And I'm starting to do a lot more writing of little things because I know that that's how I process things better. And a lot of the people I work with process things better in little, little bits, little manageable bits.

Dawn Damon: Yes. Wonderful. You're practicing what you preach, so that's great. And we will make sure that we put all of your links in our shownotes.

Dr. Jennifer Dall: Perfect thank you today.

Dawn Damon: Thank you so much for being with us, Dr. Jennifer Dahl, and hey, all you bravehearted women listening today, maybe you ADHD, bravehearted women, I'm glad that you took a moment to join us and listen and make yourself available to these things that Dr. Jennifer has for you.

And you can also visit my website. If you're ready to reignite your confidence and you wanna make some transformations in your life, you wanna awaken courage, and you need clarity, stop second-guessing. Find out what you're really, your God-given purposes. Visit www.braveheartedwoman.com/braveheartedtransformation. There's my online course for you. I'd love for you to be a part of it. I'm gonna leave you like I always do, sweet women. Is it time for you find your brave and live your vision?