1986 Penn State graduate Larry Jaffee loves this quote from Albert Einstein: "I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious." Larry's curiosity has led to a career in journalism, teaching and his latest endeavor, authoring the book "Record Store Day" that dives into vinyls' comeback. In this episode, we cover a wide range of topics that keep Larry curious.

(7:33) - Pursuing a career in journalism

(8:45) - Writing style

(12:28) - Concerns about ChatGPT

(13:11) - Advice to aspiring journalists

(14:15) - Going into teaching 

(16:05) - Sports reporting

(19:57) - Bringing the vinyl industry together

(29:08) - Writing "Record Store Day"

(31:15) - MTV's impact on the music industry

(37:15) - Top record collection

(39:57) - Lions Den presented by http://Lions-Pride.com: Penn State Experience

Learn more at http://LarryJaffee.com.

Special thanks to Penn State student intern Dan Bransfeld.

Show off your Penn State pride with the latest apparel and gear by visiting http://Lions-Pride.com.

Keep up with all the Penn State news at http://Collegian.PSU.edu.

Join Penn State's network connecting students and alumni at http://Alumni.PSU.edu/LionLink.

Lion Legacy is a Baroudeur Production and is not affiliated with Penn State University. Visit us at http://LionLegacyPodcast.com and http://Instagram.com/LionLegacyPodcast.

We are.

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It's more than just a champ.

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We are inspirational creators,

difference makers, world changers,

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and we are one community.

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Join alums, Jared and Ross as they uncover

stories of Penn Staters and their unique

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professional and personal journeys.

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We are Penn State, and

this is Lion Legacy.

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All right.

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Episode number 60 of Lion

Legacy, also known as the.

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Halloween episode, a special

time of the year for kids.

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And Ross, what are Evan and Julia

going as for Halloween this year?

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after they changed their mind

about 17 times, which I'm sure

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most kids do that, Evan, is.

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10 and a half years old and a little

bit of satire, but he's got a big Elmo

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costume just because he thinks it's funny.

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He's like, I'm going to be Elmo.

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I like, cause I'm a big Elmo.

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And I'm like, all right,

I guess that's funny.

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I don't know, he's going to

be at this big red thing.

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And he actually, believe it or not,

may turn this into a little bit of a

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side hustle because he said, friends

and family that have like little

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kids are like, Oh, we should come

to a little kid's birthday party.

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You can be like the big.

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Mike Elmo mascot.

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So he might turn this into a

little bit of a side hustle.

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I was going to say we could put

him in times square as well.

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And you can take photos with the

tourist and get a dollar or two.

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Yeah.

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Apparently some of his friends are

like, they're going along with this.

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It must be something I don't quite,

understand what the kids those age,

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but they're like, like doing a little

throwback to Sesame street at their age.

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It's kind of, like funny in some way.

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I don't quite get it, but whatever.

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And Julia is going to

be, have you seen this?

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popular Disney show.

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They did a couple of

movies called zombies.

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Have you heard this?

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It's like a Disney, like

tween musical type thing.

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with these like zombies.

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So it's these check this out.

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It's werewolves, zombies, and humans

that all coexist in this town.

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And it's these are all friends and it's

all, they put three movies out zombies,

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one zombies, two and zombies three.

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And it's anyway, so Julia loves it.

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And so she's going to be one

of the characters from zombies.

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And are her friends part of

the zombie crowd as well?

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They didn't coordinate.

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They didn't coordinate.

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But it's pretty cool.

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Maybe your nieces are familiar with it.

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I don't know.

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Yeah, I'll have to get into it or at

least I'll ask them at least about that.

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Cool.

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hopefully they'll also get a lot

of candy because that's, I know,

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an important part of the day.

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Oh yeah.

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I'm just, I'm happy to give out the candy,

walk around a little trick or treating.

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It's fine.

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I'm over the weather holds up, but,

Halloween's always a good time.

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I don't ask me to dress up.

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I'm not a costume guy, but I'm happy

to go along with everything else.

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are you going to be at the door

or are you going out with them?

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My neighbor sets up a fire pit

at the end of the driveway.

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And we pull out some chairs, we

hang out, we, have a few beers and

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we hand out candy to the passersby.

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Nice.

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Awesome.

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That's actually my favorite part of it.

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Don't tell anybody else,

but that's my favorite.

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you'll have to give us the

Halloween, rundown next time

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we, we talk, but you're sure.

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this episode is all about music and Ross.

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I know you are a big music aficionado.

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I love it.

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I love it.

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I, remember getting into music when

I was a kid I think back to certain

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styles and when I was in like middle

school, high school that really, just

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like anyone else in your formative

years, really sticks with you.

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and, that music, whether it

was, great, or I just remembered

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being great, just, built.

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My, my taste in different music

styles, it's evolved, as time goes on.

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I just appreciate, appreciate good music.

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I'm not most styles.

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I'm not this guy that I

don't eat up everything.

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I'm not a hip hop doesn't

really do it for me.

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Country music doesn't really do it for me.

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I'm a rock and roll guy.

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But I can, I appreciate the old

stuff, the classic rock, the new

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stuff from when I was growing up, even

pop music today just fascinates me.

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let me give you an example.

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Taylor Swift, right?

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Taylor Swift is everywhere.

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She is the biggest thing going.

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So you know what I did?

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I'm curious.

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I go, what makes it so good?

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I listened to probably about half a

dozen of her albums, like while she

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was touring and like all over the

news, I have to hear for myself what

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the big thing, and it's good stuff.

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It's really, it's good.

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I like her newer things or early stuff,

man, not too much, but she puts out

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some good music and I can appreciate it.

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it might not be my favorite, but

I'm all about music appreciation.

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And so that's what that is, you

know, who I got into as you were

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talking about during the pandemic.

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Yeah.

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I got into Frank Sinatra, love him,

classic, just such a relaxing, I

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would pour myself a drink during the

pandemic Friday night with a book.

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hit after hit.

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Yeah.

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that's a great thing about it is

that there's so much, no matter

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how old you are, there's so

much music that came before you.

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I remember being in high school and

I would go hang out with my buddies

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and we would dive into classic rock.

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So this was in the nineties

and dating myself here.

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And we would go back and just listen to

stuff from the sixties and seventies.

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And we would just, in addition to

stuff that was current at the time, we

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would learn about educate ourselves on.

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Classic rock.

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And that's how I got into it.

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And so there's still stuff, even for

you think about a kid today, right?

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College student, high school

student, they can go back.

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They can listen to stuff from

the two thousands, the nineties,

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eighties, you work your way back.

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It's the same thing, Jared.

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Like you're like, I never

really listened to Sinatra.

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Let me just dive into it

and learn about his music.

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Start with the hits.

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And maybe I go a little deeper.

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And that's the great thing is just,

there's just so much out there,

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so much good music out there from

whether it's our era or a prior era

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and you can consume it, that will.

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Yeah.

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And we had a great conversation

tonight with another music aficionado.

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Yeah.

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So we spoke with Larry Jaffe.

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and Larry is a journalist by trade.

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He's also a, an adjunct

journalism professor.

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and he's also a writer, a long time

writer about the music industry.

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we're going to talk about his book

called record store day, which I, I'm

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going to repeat what you'll hear it

a little bit, but, it was featured

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in the Penn state or alumni magazine.

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And I'm like, this sounds good.

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This is right down my alley.

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He wrote about record store day

and the resurgence of vinyl,

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over the last 10 years or so.

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And I'm like, Sounds great.

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I'm going to read it.

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And I read the book and afterwards

we reached out to him and said,

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Hey, we're want to talk to you.

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And he was happy to join us.

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we covered a lot of ground about

journalism, about music, about the

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industry, music industry that is, and,

what he's done over the course of his

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career, and just really cool background

and a lot of cool stories he shares

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with us to Jared, with that, we're

going to put some records on here.

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We're going to drop the pin.

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on the record, we're going to go

spin some vinyl with Larry Jaffe.

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RAAAWR RAAWR

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All right, let's welcome Larry

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master's degree in journalism.

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Larry is a journalist, communications

professional, and a professor.

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Larry has written about cybercrime,

pop culture, the media business,

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and most recently wrote a book

called Record Store Day about the

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resurgence of vinyl records, which Ross

actually read and thoroughly enjoyed.

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We'll get to hear a little bit more

from Ross about his perspective.

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Larry is also a lecturer of

journalism at Rutgers University.

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After spending a decade teaching at

the New York Institute of Technology,

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where he won the 2021 Presidential Award

for Excellence in Part Time Teaching.

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We're excited to have you on,

Larry, and talk about your career,

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your writing, and also some music.

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Thank you.

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Really great to speak

with you here, Larry.

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As a fan of journalism and a fan of music,

I admire the fact that you made a career

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Out of the former and found a way to be

involved in the business of the latter.

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We'll get into the music business

later on, but first, at what point

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did you know that you wanted to

pursue a career in journalism?

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It was when I was a senior in high school

and all the president's men had come out.

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And I said, that's what I want to do.

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not necessarily be a

political reporter, but just.

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I liked the whole idea of

a newspaper or magazine.

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I would've been perfectly happy

just being the, rock critic, if

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that was an actual job to have.

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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And in those days it actually

was, now it's almost impossible.

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But, so I knew I was

gonna be in journalism.

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I did always think about going

to law school, but I didn't wanna

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go into debt to, to be a lawyer.

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my, my daughter is now

her in her second year.

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so I'm living precariously through her.

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and those late nights probably

of studying as well, right?

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Right.

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So you have a ton of bylines, right?

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New York Times, Rolling Stone,

Billboard, Huffington Post,

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among many other publications.

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You've also written about a

wide variety of subjects, but

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found yourself coming back.

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To the arts and to the media business

when possible, curious, how would you

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describe your reporting or writing style?

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And how is that style also

allow you to be versatile in the

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subjects that you've covered?

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Well, I think it goes back to

being curious about everything.

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and I tell my current students this

all the time that although I have

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two degrees in journalism, that's not

how I learned how to be a journalist.

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It was from the age of 16 weeding

cover to cover the New York Times on a

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daily basis and also actually doing it.

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and interviewing people.

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Once I got into college, only me

and a few other friends were writing

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professionally while we were still

at my undergraduate degrees from

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Hofstra University in Hampstead.

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I realized I always aimed high, that's

how I made it into the New York Times.

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Rolling Stone, I just got lucky.

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I had met Ed Asner at a

political fundraiser and I

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said to him, I'm a freelancer.

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I, don't have an assignment, but I'll get

one if you would do an interview with me.

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Ed's show had been canceled.

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Lou Grant was canceled about six months

earlier before we met for the first time.

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So I knew, I knew it was

somewhat controversial.

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And in those days, I was still

using a manual typewriter.

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I actually typed 10

letters to Newsweek Time.

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you name like the major

magazines of the day.

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And, I got 9 rejections very quickly.

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The 10th was Rolling Stone.

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And, in fact, Terry McDonald, the

editor at the time, he called me and

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wanted to see if I wanted to do it.

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So I said, don't toy with me.

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I'm a freelancer.

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Are you serious?

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He goes, no.

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He said, we were just discussing

ASNR and we were all too busy.

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Everyone on staff was too busy

to take it on and then somebody

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said, I just received this query

letter and that's how it happened.

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It was perfect.

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do you feel like you have

a particular style though?

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Out there is from writing

wise, it is conversational,

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but it's also journalistic.

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I never really attempted fiction,

although, I did read, when I was a

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student, both that, I guess in graduate

school as well, literary journalists.

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type people like Kanto

Thompson at Penn State.

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I was very lucky.

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I had a great, writing instructor,

Toby Thompson, who is still there.

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And I was familiar with Toby's

work because I'm a Bob Dylan

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fanatic and Toby wrote one of

the first biographies of Dylan.

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so I had read his book before I knew

he was teaching at Penn State, and

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then I was lucky to take his course.

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And, I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty

sure it made me a better writer.

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Being in his class, I

like the point you made.

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I feel like you could go

for almost any career, but

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especially in journalism, right?

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it's one thing to learn the textbook

material, but you know, as with any

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job, you're not actually going to get

better at it until you're doing it.

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And I imagine you could write

whatever you want until you're

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actually out there covering a real

story and having that be published.

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and then I imagine your work as you got

go along, your, You're gaining confidence.

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you can tell that you're, becoming

a little more seamless to you.

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And, to your point,

that's how you get better.

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also, I just told my, my, supervisor

recently at Rutgers that my students

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would never be able to use chat, GBT,

or, any kind of artificial intelligence.

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And do my assignments because they're

so tailored to what's going on in

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my head, I'm very confident that,

they couldn't cheat to get by, how

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big of a concern is that though?

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I'm concerned that my stuff is

going to get ripped off, I recently

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started blogging for medium

about all kinds of topics and.

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I hear other writers that, face this,

that they feel they're being ripped off.

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Sure.

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anything that's on the internet, right?

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you're at risk of that, especially,

yourself with all of these publications

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and bylines you've had over the

years, So you worked for a number

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of publishing companies, right?

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You managed, editorial production staff.

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So when you were, a little more tenured

in your career and you're working

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with, let's say somebody that was a

little more junior in their career as a

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journalist, what was the important piece

of advice or guidance you gave them?

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Again, the people that were

serious about it at the time.

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how did you feel like, what

did you share with them to help

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them along in their career?

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be thorough, double check.

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don't just give me the first

draft and say you've done, really

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read it over, read it out loud.

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In fact, I do that, and I'll catch

things that if I just mentally

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looked it over, I wouldn't see.

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every writer can be improved and

I was lucky early in my career.

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I had one editor, who, Just showed me

how I use too many words often, and to

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consolidate like less is more and it

really I learned more in those like five

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seconds than I did four years at Hofstra.

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literally, and definitely made me a

better writer, and there's other things

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that I do now is, I try not to repeat

the same words and whatever I'm writing.

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just mix it up.

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There are other ways to say things.

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Talk to us a little bit about how

you became an adjunct professor.

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I believe you, originally didn't

plan to go into teaching, but

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certainly you've had a great

career at a number of universities.

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Yeah.

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So it was around 1983

and I wrote a freelance.

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article for a magazine called the

press and, I saw it on a newsstand

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once and, they weren't answering the

phone like six months after it was

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published, and I was still wasn't paid.

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So I, I just randomly chose one

of the names in the magazine.

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I think his article was

in the page after mine.

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And, he said, He didn't get paid either.

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His name was Peter Coper.

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And he said to me, what are you doing?

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So I said, I'm looking for my next gig.

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So he says, you want to teach?

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And I said, yeah, where?

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And he says, Hofstra.

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I said, I just graduated

from there three years ago.

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So then a month later, I'm sitting

in this interview with three of my

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four, three of the four on the panel.

310

professors, and I had, I had good

relationships with all three of them.

311

so it was just total by accident.

312

And so while I was there for a

year, on the bulletin board, I

313

saw a, a flyer that Penn State was

looking for graduate assistants.

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And this was one of the periods

of time when I was seriously

315

thinking about going to law school.

316

I really didn't know what a graduate

assistant was or what it did.

317

there was some description.

318

So I figured I might as well apply

because by that point, I was already

319

published in the New York Times.

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It was already published in Rolling Stone.

321

So I figured I had a pretty good shot.

322

and I already had taught at

Hofstra for about a year and a

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half, news and feature writing.

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I was able to get the assistantship.

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Did you ever get that

check from the magazine?

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No, So let's talk a

little bit about baseball.

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tough couple days for Ross here

because he's a big Phillies fan.

328

But I understand you're

a huge baseball fan.

329

Did you ever have the opportunity or

interest to go the sports reporting route?

330

I've done some sports

reporting occasionally.

331

it's more on the business side of Sports.

332

in fact, I had interviewed the former

president of CBS sports last year

333

for broadcasting and cable magazine.

334

through the nineties, eighties, nineties,

I wrote a lot about the cable television

335

business and, ESPN, sports rights

and, all kinds of, streaming when that

336

started coming out, but, the only time

I ever actually reported on a game

337

was that, Hofstra, the sports editor,

I don't know, for whatever reason,

338

didn't want to cover the football game.

339

So I volunteered to do it and it

actually was a very exciting game in

340

the last second, like a field goal.

341

Won the game erotic thing is

now I actually despise football.

342

So what?

343

No, I was teaching a sports

reporting class at St.

344

Joseph's College in Long Island.

345

And the Will Smith movie

concussion had just come out.

346

but instead of showing that I decided to

show the documentary, League in Denial,

347

that the, that the, fiction film was based

on, and, it was so eye opening that the

348

NFL knows that half of their players are

brain damaged, and yeah, they've made

349

some, changes, but, it just showed me how

the, how football especially is just about

350

greed, I was also not only dismayed that

the league would You know, exploit these

351

players, but so would, the union, so I

give you an idea of how my brain works.

352

I heard yesterday in the news that

the Olympics are going to have flag

353

football and NFL players are going to be.

354

able to, be on the American team.

355

you know what?

356

Why don't you just make it all

flag football at this stage?

357

you want to like, it would be a lot safer.

358

Right.

359

So yeah, I recently

wrote a piece about that.

360

it was for medium.

361

It was a titled, I wanted to play football

for the coach, but now I hate football.

362

and that, that was a reference to a

Lou Reed, song, Coney Island baby.

363

we'll segue into music, eventually,

but I do want to we're getting

364

there before we get into music.

365

I do want to just ask.

366

So who's your baseball team?

367

now it's still the Mets, I listened

to probably half the games on

368

radio like I did when I was a kid.

369

and I would follow on the ESPN,

app, the game cast, which was a

370

little bit delayed from the radio.

371

but I grew up, it's interesting.

372

I grew up in meth van

when I was a teenager.

373

I switched to the Yankees to piss off my

father because I realized he brainwashed

374

my brother and me to be bad fans.

375

I rode the Yankees for a while.

376

especially, my college years

when they were pretty great.

377

and I switched back to, the Mets in the

early eighties, mainly because I was

378

living on Long Island at the time and

most of my friends were Mets fans and

379

they kept on telling me about, these

guys, Strawberry and, Doc Gooden and, and.

380

I realized that they really

did have something special.

381

And I remember being at Penn state

382

day of the season, like they didn't

make it into playoffs, but they

383

looked like they were poised to be a

real serious threat the next season.

384

And I remember actually in September,

We had a blackboard in the graduate

385

assistant room and I put the starting

rotation and I was like, yeah,

386

try to talk about that, love it.

387

as promised, we are going

to talk about music now.

388

we're going to discuss your book

record store day in a moment, but

389

first, I want to talk about making

390

correct me if this is all based

business to business networking platform

391

that helps promote the resurgence

of traditional record album, right?

392

Is it like a platform or consortium?

393

Is that the best way I

guess to describe it?

394

it's principally a conference, so it's

a networking platform that, we brought

395

the industry together so that, no

matter where they were on the supply

396

chain, they could meet their customers

or the future customers or suppliers.

397

It's interesting.

398

I had pitched my co founder,

399

I, and honestly, I didn't know

there was a vinyl resurgence.

400

I did write a piece for the magazine

I used to edit called MediaLine back

401

in 2002, and there was a producer.

402

For Sony, who, reissued, he just reissued

mostly CDs, but he started licensing

403

for his own label Sundays, the Bob Dylan

catalog, the birds catalog, and would, put

404

them out on vinyl and mono, and he told

405

actually in the book, Bob Irwin, that he

had no doubt the vinyl was coming back

406

and I thought he was, Being ludicrous.

407

I never really thought anything

that it could be possible.

408

He proved me wrong.

409

the book, I think the key to the

book is actually the subtitle.

410

the most improbable comeback of the

21st century, because try to think

411

of another technology that we did 50

years ago that came back, we embrace.

412

Right.

413

It doesn't exist.

414

It's only vinyl.

415

Yeah.

416

rotary phones.

417

I don't think so.

418

Hardly.

419

So hang on, we're going to get

to the book in a second also,

420

before we get off of making vinyl.

421

you mentioned a moment ago, like

connecting the, the suppliers

422

with the shop owners and so forth.

423

what are their like mission and goals?

424

Like how has it been

successful since it's launched?

425

let me give you an idea of what

happened when we first started it.

426

Sure.

427

at the time we knew there were 35 pressing

plants in the world and we had most

428

of those 35 speak at our conference.

429

about 6 or 7 were like the

biggest plants in the world.

430

And then we had a another panel that

had about 6 or 7, operations that

431

had just started in the last 5 years.

432

we didn't know.

433

Was there was like another dozen

sitting in the audience that were

434

about to start their operations.

435

Same thing happened the next

year, like doubled the amount.

436

So right now there are 200 pressing

plants in throughout the world,

437

half of which are in the U.

438

S.

439

and what drives us crazy is.

440

The way that the media report stuff, but

they don't do, this goes back to what

441

we were talking about with reporting.

442

they just basically repeat a

press release, which by the way

443

has been discredited, Luminate

basically admitted that their

444

projections are just projections.

445

and I knew this for a fact

because, last year they said

446

that the vinyl growth was 4%.

447

And we know that's physically

cannot be possible because we

448

have a line, a direct line to all

the pressing plants in the world.

449

We know how much they're producing.

450

and I, this actually came to

451

Had just issued their six month report

and I'm just reading from the press

452

releases as well according to this 9.

453

2 million units were distributed

454

they're yelling from the audience.

455

Those numbers are ridiculously low and

then afterwards one of the pressing

456

plan owners Steve Sheldon who had a

company called rainbow in Santa Monica,

457

he said I did six million on my own.

458

it just shows, the stuff that's

being distributed to record

459

stores is being bought, now true.

460

It's the most popular titles that

probably move the most amount of

461

units, like the Flea and Mac rumors,

Michael Jackson, the Beatles.

462

If you look at the top 10 of last

year, the top 10 bestsellers,

463

7 of the 10 were like either

millennial or, or, Gen Z artists.

464

they weren't just the

classic rock type stuff.

465

So that bodes really well for the future.

466

the Taylor Swift's and Olivia

Rodrigo's, they're basically the future.

467

and my, daughter is 25 years old.

468

She.

469

loves vinyl.

470

it's funny when she called me when

she was in college and she said, are

471

you still doing that vinyl thing?

472

So I said, yeah, she said,

I want a record player.

473

I know what I want.

474

It's a Crosley.

475

It's like one of those little suitcases.

476

I know what color I want.

477

And I was like, Oh, I probably could

get you something better than that.

478

She goes, no, no, it's

exactly what I want.

479

So two years later, She calls me again

and she says, I think I'm ready for

480

a better, looking for an upgrade.

481

Yeah.

482

And her system sounds

better than mine now.

483

This may be a bit of a naive question

and I don't own a record player.

484

Is the sound quality that

much better or different?

485

Is that something that I could pick up?

486

It's all relative, really.

487

so the Crosley doesn't sound that

great and it chews up the records, but

488

the Crosley does have better models

actually, but it depends to your question.

489

It depends on how that record

was recorded, how it was

490

mastered, how it was pressed.

491

It's such a complicated.

492

process that any little screw

up along the way can make a

493

record sound not that great.

494

On the other hand, when you compare

it to a CD and do an A B test

495

and you have a decent pressing,

I think, yeah, I think it sounds

496

better, and I've done that actually.

497

but I loved CDs when they first started.

498

And in fact, I was at Penn State

when I bought my first CD player.

499

and I remember the first semester

I still was playing vinyl.

500

I went came back to

Manhattan for Thanksgiving.

501

And I went to the new then new

Tower Records in the village.

502

And I bought what I thought was the

five LP set of Bob Dylan's biograph.

503

And I opened it up.

504

And there were three CDs.

505

And I was like Surprise.

506

I was planning on getting a CD

player, but I don't have the

507

money to get one right now.

508

that was like my first CD purchase.

509

it's funny, years later, I wrote about

the packaging side of the business and it

510

was just a bad QC, that ended up with the

CDs in the box and they misprinted it.

511

But, and I recently actually got the

vinyl biograph, I had a huge record store.

512

There you go.

513

After all those years, you finally got it.

514

Yeah.

515

No, Jared, though, I think, just speaking

as a, in layman's terms, I think there are

516

a lot of people that do think that, right?

517

I don't know if it's, just what

people, people, of the, the boomer

518

generation or whatever they grew

up with, grew up with records and

519

they like, yeah, they swear by it.

520

Like this, nothing sound tapes.

521

Didn't sound the same CDs.

522

Didn't sound the same, even,

highly refined digital streaming.

523

it doesn't matter what

kind of equipment you have.

524

Nothing sounds like vinyl.

525

And I'm sure you hear

this also, Larry, right?

526

just people that just swear

by it, no matter what.

527

Yeah.

528

I have like old vintage records,

Booker T and the MGs from,

529

it was like 1969, I think.

530

And it looks beat up when you

look at it, but it sounds amazing.

531

Sure.

532

Yeah.

533

Sure.

534

Yeah.

535

So, I mean, even like some of the,

the RCA David Bowie flexi discs

536

that they called, those sound great.

537

it really depends on the actual press.

538

Got it.

539

So Larry, we are going to move on to your

book now and bear with me on the next

540

question is a little bit long here, but

I think it's important to build it up.

541

So record store day

was released last year.

542

I actually saw the feature in

the alumni magazine and being a

543

big music fan, I was very curious

and went and bought it on Amazon.

544

I read the book and one of the several

things that impressed me was the

545

depth to which you were able to tell

the story of Record Store Day and the

546

people that helped drive the effort.

547

as a quick synopsis, and I'm going

to read this, actually from, I've

548

got the hard copy with me and I

want to read part of the back cover

549

because I think it's important.

550

Record Store Day managed to revive

the vinyl format from Oblivion over

551

the past 15 years with some of the

biggest artists jumping at the chance

552

to support independent record stores.

553

This alliance and renewed camaraderie

between artists and record stores

554

set in motion the world's largest

annual music event, Record Store Day.

555

we're getting to the question now.

556

What was the motivation to

tell the story more broadly?

557

And secondly, I imagine the independent

record shops, being a tight knit

558

community, it was probably difficult

to piece together the whole story.

559

Given you had so many

moving pieces, right?

560

You had the store owners, you

had the label executives, you

561

had the musicians involved.

562

So just, there's a lot there,

but how did this all come about?

563

How did, were you able to kind of

knit this whole story together?

564

it took a lot of work.

565

I must have done at least 35, 40

interviews with various people.

566

I believe it.

567

On the research side, the Association

of Recorded Sound Collections

568

gave the book an award last week.

569

I didn't even know it was nominated.

570

And the category was Best

Research for General Recording.

571

The ironic thing is one of my

colleagues at Rutgers at the Institute

572

of Jazz Studies was the former

president of this organization.

573

I saw him yesterday and, he was telling

me about how the awards come about.

574

he's not that active in the,

organization anymore, but he, certainly

575

knew the whole inner workings of

the awards and things like that.

576

So we both might go to Minneapolis.

577

I'm definitely going to go to

collect the award, but he said

578

he might come this time too.

579

That's fantastic.

580

congratulations.

581

that's great.

582

I love that.

583

Yeah.

584

to your point, it's almost there's some of

the articles you'll see from time to time.

585

Like they call it the oral

history of something, Oral history

586

of a TV show or some event.

587

And that's almost what I felt like when

I was reading the book, To your point

588

amazed at how, like the whole thing, it's

like, you spoke with all these people.

589

It's first it was like, the gang from the,

all the independent record shops, right?

590

Then it was the executives and

then it was the musicians involved.

591

And it's just the way you pieced

it together was very well done.

592

And it helped tell the story in a

very, chronological methodical way.

593

and I.

594

To your, point.

595

I know that I imagined as I was

reading it, that wasn't easy.

596

And so I appreciate your experience.

597

I mean, it also had sort of an arc

to it that, it's turned out that way.

598

the book ends with the pandemic and

how record stores, how to adapt and

599

learn e commerce all of a sudden.

600

we're going to talk about Penn state

in a little bit, but I do want to touch

601

upon your master's project while at

Penn state, which centered on MTV's

602

impact on the record industry and record

buying habits of Penn state students.

603

Let's go back in time.

604

early, mid 1980s.

605

Give us the synopsis of what you learned

and shared as part of this project.

606

Well, you know, it's interesting.

607

I did some research of other academics,

who were writing about popular culture.

608

And I had published actually

while I was at Penn State, two

609

articles for, a, journal called

Popular Culture and Society.

610

And One of the pieces was actually did

some reporting about, State College.

611

I bought a used record

of, Kate Tell's greatest.

612

Hits or something, from,

613

And I interviewed one of the local

DJs, at, at the radio station,

614

to talk about those songs in

that era and, things like that.

615

so basically at graduate school

I decided, I really didn't wanna.

616

focus on like heavy journalism, first

amendment topics and things like that.

617

I had already given up the idea about

going to law school at that point.

618

had I, thought I was going to take

that path, I would have done that.

619

But you know, so I figured I'm

gonna make this fun for myself.

620

So MTV was like a pretty new

phenomenon at that point.

621

It was only around for a couple of years.

622

and then I figured, around my Thanksgiving

break and things like that, I'll do

623

some interviews with, record executives,

maybe I'll get some free records.

624

And then I was taking a course in

qualitative research with, My graduate

625

advisor, John Pavlik, who, now is

at Rutgers for the past 20 years.

626

and it was really helpful because

even my later media career, I

627

learned how to write a questionnaire.

628

And get qualitative answers that,

we're not skewed to whatever

629

biases the organization was

looking for, which is probably the

630

problem with a lot of research.

631

I remember, being at.

632

Can't remember the exact

name of the record store,

633

but it doesn't exist anymore.

634

A few years ago, I

actually researched this.

635

It was like ambrosia

or something like that.

636

And, I still have a couple of the

CDs with the, has the price tag with

637

the name of the store on it, I think,

but anyway, I would stand in front of

638

the, the store and hand out the survey

and have the students fill it out.

639

by that point, I was already being

published in a magazine, that was put

640

out by Town Hall Records called Pulse.

641

so I, I told...

642

The editor at Tower Records, Pulse,

I was doing this research and it

643

was part of my master's project.

644

The reason actually why it was a

master's project and not a master's

645

thesis was because I was having a

problem with my, my desktop computer.

646

the software wasn't working properly

and I couldn't get the, citations right.

647

And, when you're doing a

master's thesis, the really

648

sticklers for that type of thing.

649

Sure.

650

I forgot how, I think I got three less

credits for it, but I made up the three

651

credits some other way so that they said,

but you can't call the master's thesis.

652

And it was all because of the

citations and the software I

653

was using, it was so ridiculous.

654

But, but anyway, I was able

to get it published in a,

655

widely circulated magazines.

656

I was really happy about that.

657

but at that point I had.

658

Already, I knew right after I graduated

from Penn State, I was going to

659

be working for a cable television

magazine, which is one of the few places

660

that I've worked at that's still in

business, multi channel news, which I

661

still contribute to once in a while.

662

And it was interesting when I

first arrived at Penn State in

663

1985, the National Cable Museum

was supposedly there at Penn State.

664

It actually turned out to be like a little

showcase with a coaxial cable in it.

665

It wasn't a museum of any sort.

666

But, they claimed that they were like

the, the place where cable was, founded,

667

although there were other parts of

the country that claimed that as well.

668

it was, the right time for me to

be somewhere other than New York.

669

I was just getting a little tired of, I

needed a change of scenery, essentially.

670

and I was really happy.

671

It was only a one year program, actually.

672

It's, it's interesting, though.

673

I'm curious, what role and impact you

may think MTV has today on, the music

674

industry as a whole, knowing that.

675

Things have changed, right?

676

Yeah.

677

what's the thing I've realized, is it when

you teed up the question is like, there's

678

a whole generation, the students listening

now, like they don't know what it was.

679

I remember coming home from school.

680

I think I was like in

junior high or high school.

681

It was like, total request live

was like must watch television.

682

And That if you wanted like the top

songs, it was like you watched the

683

videos and and the artists made a

big deal about making the video.

684

there's no music videos anymore.

685

this was like, that was, it was

pivotal in how, in what you listen

686

to based on, on pop music, back then.

687

there are still, there are

music videos being made.

688

In fact, a friend of mine, on Long

Island had, like MTV for independent

689

musicians type of he basically

copied the format and going back.

690

some of them are performance videos.

691

Some of them, are actual concept videos.

692

Sure.

693

they don't have the production values.

694

And that was actually one of

the problems with the music

695

industry in the 80s and 90s.

696

it was just another way to screw the

musicians because they would charge them 4

697

million back on the advance that they got

because that's how much the video cost.

698

And then they wouldn't make

no money off of their album.

699

and then also with streaming now,

this is the great thing about vinyl

700

musicians make far more money from

their vinyl release than they would

701

ever from any kind of stream, right?

702

the pennies that they make

from Spotify or what have you.

703

Yeah.

704

So Larry, we're going to move on here.

705

I know you mentioned you had

your huge collection, right?

706

Which you sold most of it.

707

Have you, you built that

back up over the years?

708

I have about 4, 000 LPs now.

709

Okay.

710

while we've got, you'll want to

make sure we have a little old

711

school record store chat, right?

712

I'm going to give you the softball

of all softball questions.

713

Rattle off your top five

records of all time.

714

Yeah, that's pretty easy, actually.

715

I've, given it a lot of thought.

716

I've been asked it before.

717

I would say, Bob Dylan's Blood on

the Tracks, Patti Smith's Horses,

718

Velvet Underground, and Nico.

719

Nina Simone, wild as the wind.

720

and, what else did I

give you four or five?

721

I wasn't counting, but as many as

you want to give us, I actually

722

wrote it down here somewhere.

723

Oh, the soul mining, which was a

record that came out in the eighties.

724

And I listened to a lot

when I was at Penn State.

725

Okay.

726

And I still listen to it.

727

What do you like to listen to today?

728

are you like, you're all over the map?

729

Or you go back to some

of your old favorites?

730

I understand.

731

Yeah.

732

When I was walking around home

on Tuesday, there was this guy

733

selling records on 125th Street.

734

So I bought a Smokey Robinson Live,

a Dionne Warwick, which, I had Dionne

735

Warwick, like all of her, Grace

Hitts type albums, but this had,

736

these amazing songs from the 60s that

weren't hers, basically other artists.

737

like MacArthur Park, other

people made them famous.

738

so that, that was, it

was amazing for 10 bucks.

739

I couldn't believe I would

get that kind of value.

740

I got, and also I got

a Louis Armstrong live.

741

so it's all over the map, but at the same

time, I, I think Olivia Rodrigo's album

742

is better than the Rolling Stones album.

743

It is very good.

744

Actually.

745

I actually listened to

the new Olivia Rodrigo.

746

I will say, I love pop music and I'm

always curious to see why popular

747

music, no matter when, whether it's

20 years ago or now is popular.

748

I listened to it.

749

It's excellent.

750

It came out the same day.

751

I think it came out the day after

the Rolling Stones single, Angry.

752

And I pissed off a lot of close

friends of mine by saying that

753

it was a crappy single, and I

don't understand why they did it.

754

I hope the album is better.

755

The album, the Stones album,

is better than I feared.

756

It's still just...

757

a bit above, Bigger Bang or, Steel Wheels.

758

Both of those albums, I think are awful.

759

but the Lady Gaga track is really great.

760

What really disappointed me

most about the record is there's

761

not a song about Charlie Watts.

762

And I, Mick and Keith, they just

like basically, checked it in.

763

they're capable of writing a song.

764

Maybe at 80 years old, they

don't want to, but right.

765

look, if they're interested to go put a

whole album together, then they're good.

766

They can do this.

767

They can make a song, right?

768

There's a lot of, they're

working on the styles.

769

my friend, Craig Braun actually designed

the tongue and he posted on Facebook

770

yesterday and saying, how much royalties

do you think I'm getting from this?

771

Zilch.

772

Well, let's transition a little bit.

773

Talk about your experience at Penn state.

774

We're going to put you in the

lines then brought to you by

775

our friends at lion's pride.

776

Remember to visit lions dash pride.

777

com to pick up all your Penn state

fall sports apparel and gear.

778

So Larry, you were only a Penn

state for a short time, right?

779

Doing your master's.

780

you mentioned it was a nice, a

little bit of a change of pace from,

781

being in and around New York city.

782

Could think about back

when you left Penn state.

783

You went further into

your journalism career.

784

How do you feel like your time at

Penn State prepared you for those

785

early days once you left there?

786

Well, like I said, I knew

what I was going to do.

787

I had a job to go to immediately, but

I remember the year after I graduated

788

from Penn State, watching the bowl game.

789

And Penn State won, and I was with my

friend, my graduate assistant co worker,

790

Stuart Goldstein, who's now the vice

president of communications at, William

791

Patterson University in, New Jersey.

792

when we realized that Penn

State was going to win.

793

We both looked at each other and was like,

networking opportunities, so he was still

794

at the times to work in public relations.

795

looking back on it, no matter where

you're at, you just have to, make

796

the best of the resources there,

go to everything, read the alumni

797

magazine and, see who, has similar

interests of working in similar areas.

798

I think that, no matter where

you went, I think that's key.

799

as far as being at Penn State, my

favorite story, I think, is when

800

I first arrived and I had my car

apparently in the wrong parking lot.

801

Which was near the

practice football field.

802

And I go to my car, like I only, because

I lived a few blocks away and I really

803

had no reason to use the car anyway.

804

I go there and there's 10

tickets on the windshield.

805

I was literally three feet away

from where I was supposed to be.

806

Apparently it was like this

little pole that basically had

807

graduates that way and undergrads

that way or something like that.

808

it was like so ridiculous.

809

So I tried to argue my way, to get the

knock down and they wouldn't budge.

810

So I had 150 fine, basically,

parking, in parking tickets.

811

so as I'm leaving, after I, I tried

to, to no avail, I, I had the car

812

in the right place, and I'm walking

along the adjacent football field,

813

and I see a football on the other

side of the fence, and I still have

814

that football, and it's still branded.

815

that has a little Penn State

branding thing in it, but it's funny.

816

My son found it recently

and he gave it back to me.

817

so I look at that as a, as my

150 souvenir from Penn State.

818

I was about to say, there you go.

819

It's 150 football.

820

The year before, when I was at Penn

State, my father came to visit me.

821

My father was a New York

City taxi cab driver.

822

And.

823

We're driving around the campus at 8

30 in the morning and you know what

824

you remember the creamery was sure

Who do we see and now this is like the

825

day after they lose that ball game?

826

Who do we see walking

towards us Joe Paterno?

827

And I almost told my dad to let's drive

over and see if he needs a ride because

828

I think Joe grew up in the Bronx or

something like, but, we didn't do that.

829

He looked like he didn't want,

he was like, not in a good mood.

830

So we left him alone.

831

Probably not.

832

I did interview Joe actually for a

magazine article that I wrote while I was

833

at Penn State, for the magazine that I was

working at prior to going to Penn State.

834

it was called Fundraising Management.

835

It was all about the machine

that Penn State had in terms of

836

fundraising and alumni and, how it

was state of the art at the time.

837

So Joe actually, I did a sidebar about,

him giving back to the, To the, library.

838

So Larry, you mentioned it earlier.

839

You went to Hofstra for undergrad,

and then you made your way to

840

Penn State, a few years later.

841

If you could go back and visit with

yourself right before you started

842

your master's program at Penn State,

what advice would you share back then?

843

I think I would have,

learned how to edit video.

844

I was always branded as like a

print person, I probably would

845

have done more radio broadcasting.

846

I probably would have done podcasts,

things like that a lot earlier.

847

I did jump on the internet

as soon as possible.

848

back in the mid 90s, but,

I just, I don't know.

849

I think video was one thing for

my career that I probably should

850

have paid more attention to.

851

I always looked at myself

as more of a writer.

852

I've written scripts for

films and things like that.

853

I've not.

854

directed a film or anything like that.

855

I, although I think I could

direct like a news broadcast,

856

I loved all the stories tonight, Larry.

857

This was great.

858

I gotta said, I maybe didn't know all the

artists and musicians you mentioned, but

859

certainly a lot of great stories there.

860

And as, as we think about kind

of, the theme, one of those.

861

Themes that comes to mind is

really your curiosity, right?

862

Your lifelong learner, you publish

stories and very diverse publications.

863

And then really even to go down this

vinyl route as well was really centered

864

around your curiosity to really pull

out some of those great stories.

865

So I want to thank you for coming on

the podcast and also congrats again

866

on, on that award that you just won.

867

Hey, thank you so much.

868

Jared, just looking back on it, not that

I'm done, but, it goes by very quickly.

869

we'll look out for that next book whenever

it lands and we always end the podcast

870

with, we are, up in state, RAAAWR RAAWR

871

Lion Legacy is a Bar Ruter production.

872

If you enjoy this Labor of Love podcast,

we'd certainly appreciate it if you

873

would subscribe and write us a review

on your favorite podcast platform.