Elizabeth Wangugi shares eye-opening statistics—like how 77% of employees, including executives, report feeling burned out—and offers her unique perspective on why burnout is more than just a workplace issue.

Our discussion journeys through the hidden symptoms of burnout, why many people (especially leaders) fail to recognize it until it’s too late, and the cultural factors that reward pushing past our limits.

You’ll hear honest reflections on the unique challenges women face, from lack of health resources to juggling multiple roles at home and work, and why support systems, self-care, and the courage to rest are essential for true productivity and happiness. Elizabeth even peels back the layers on concepts like discipline vs. self-control and the power of being proactive in supporting loved ones.

Packed with practical wisdom, personal stories, and a refreshing take on life’s true successes, this episode will inspire you to rethink your own relationship to work, rest, and purpose. Whether you’re feeling the weight of burnout or simply want to build a more balanced life, there’s something here for everyone. Tune in, and let’s explore how to move from simply surviving to truly thriving.

Moments

00:00 Zora's House: Support for Women

10:17 Preventing and Addressing Employee Burnout

15:07 Minority Pressure to Overperform

20:41 "Exploring Slow Productivity and Burnout"

21:48 Defining Success and Productivity

28:05 Endless Thoughts, Sleepless Nights

37:36 Purpose and Motivation Against Burnout

39:51 Intrinsic Motivation vs. Extrinsic Pressure

45:35 The Illusion of Success

53:47 "Black Women's Strength and Independence"

58:56 "Understanding Partner's Personality"

01:02:43 "I Lied": Heartfelt Song's Twist

01:06:17 Networking Pajama Concert & Wellness

Here are 3 key takeaways we think are worth sharing:

• Burnout is often invisible—until it isn’t. Many people, especially leaders and high achievers, don’t recognize burnout until they’re forced to stop. The societal reward for pushing through pain needs to be questioned.

• Connection is a powerful antidote. Those less prone to burnout often have strong, supportive networks—people they feel safe being vulnerable with. High-quality sleep, healthy routines, and regular ‘mental’ practices (from meditation to faith) are also common protective factors.

• Women carry layered burdens. Burnout in women is amplified by gaps in health resources and disproportionate “second and third shifts” at home. Support for women requires not just empathy, but proactive help—sometimes before it’s even asked for.

Elizabeth Wangugi is a workplace wellness strategist, trauma-informed

embodiment facilitator, and the founder of Exclusive Excursions and the Nap

Concert.

With over 10 years of experience in event planning and organizational

transformation, Elizabeth helps teams and leaders dismantle burnout culture

by reconnecting to the company purpose, emotional intelligence, and embodied

care.

Known as “The Business Witchdoctor,” she blends behavioral science, somatic

rituals, and graceful strategy to create environments where healing and high

performance coexist. Her work invites both individuals and institutions to

reimagine success through restoration, not depletion.

Elizabeth’s voice is a balm for burned-out professionals and a compass for

companies seeking something more human—and more sustainable. Connect

with Elizabeth at https://www.veex.store.

In each episode, Jeff and Eric will talk about what emotional intelligence, or understanding your emotions, can do for you in your daily and work life. For more information, contact Eric or Jeff at info@spiritofeq.com, or go to their website, Spirit of EQ.

You can follow The Spirit of EQ Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Android, or on your favorite podcast player.

New episodes are available on the 2nd and 4th Wednesdays every month!

Please review our podcast on iTunes. Click on the link for an easy, step-by-step tutorial.

Music from Uppbeat

https://uppbeat.io/t/roo-walker/deeper

License code: PEYKDJHQNGSZXDUE

https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/

Spirit of EQ

We hope you enjoy the podcast. Hopefully, you're tuning in on a regular basis. We'd love it if you would give us a great review on whatever platform you're listening to the podcast. It's so appreciative and helps us as we try to get more exposure for the work we do and the episodes that we publish. We're grateful to you as a listener. Secondly, our content is for educational purposes only. It's not intended by any stretch to diagnose or treat anything that may be occurring in your life or anyone else's life that you may be connected to through the podcast. And as always, we look forward to the next time that we're together. Take care.

Mentioned in this episode:

SEQ Development Report

The SEQ Development Report is an innovative tool that combines emotional intelligence with one's spiritual life, distinct from religious contexts. The report helps individuals understand their connections with themselves, others, and their surroundings. It aims to identify areas in their lives that may need improvement and highlight their strengths, ultimately facilitating better navigation through life. To obtain the report, individuals need to contact Spirit of EQ via email at info@spiritofeq.com and complete an online assessment that takes about 15 to 20 minutes. After the assessment, a debrief session is required to review the comprehensive information provided in the report. Spirit of EQ also offers further coaching to support individuals in their personal development journey.

Thanks for listening to Spirit of EQ

This podcast was created to be a tool to primarily help you to discover and grow your EQ. Science and our own lived experiences confirm that the better we are at managing our emotions, the better we're going to be at making decisions. Which leads to a better life. And that's something we all want. We're glad that you've taken the time today to listen. We hope that something you hear will lead to a breakthrough. We'd really appreciate a review on your podcast platform. Please leave some comments about what you heard today, as well as follow and subscribe to the podcast. That way, you won't miss a single episode as we continue this journey.

Liz, welcome to the spirit of EQ podcast.

Thank you so much for having me.

Glad you're here.

I know the planning side of this has been a minute because we had coffee. I think it was almost a year ago. And was it that it. Yeah, it was about that.

Wow.

Flies as always. And that wasn't the first time we met. The first time we met was at this Dynamic Dialogues event. Right. And you and I hit it off. There was some perspective you had about things. And then the more that we talked, and then we had a mutual friend, Stephanie Matthews, and here we are. You focus a lot, and not only on burnout.

And that was the thing that really piqued my interest. Right.

Yeah.

And quite frankly. Right. It's because it's pretty much a. A real thing inside of many different arenas. Right.

It's a real thing.

A real thing. Right. So I want to start today, and can we maybe at a high level. What's the state of burnout when you think about business and personal? And the reason I include personal is because I know it's getting a lot of press inside of the workplace, but burnout doesn't just happen there. So what's the overall state? Where are we at? Would you say?

Gallup is telling us that 70%, 77% of all employees, including executives, are currently burnt out. Recent studies have suggested that executives who are burnt out report that they are in mental decline. So the people who are writing our policies and making our laws and dictating our lives are telling us, the people they're dictating the lives to, that they're not okay in actually getting worse.

So I'm.

Jeff, I'm gonna. I have to jump here on that.

Go ahead.

So if I understand you right, that would be like Jeff and I saying, hey, before we record, you need to understand both of us are just burnt out. It probably would not bode well for our episode to go really well. It probably wouldn't flow. It probably would be a mess.

Well, go ahead, add to that. And that's not what I was gonna say a minute ago, but to add to that, what if we didn't know we were burned out?

Whoa, ladies and gentlemen, that's why. That's Jeff East. Give me a chill. So to that, maybe to Jeff's point, is it a known thing? I mean, are these in that 77%, or would they all raise their hand and say, yeah, of course, I know it, or is it a phantom thing, too?

So I'm going to tell you a story, and I'm not Sure, if I'm allowed to tell this story. But it's fairly public knowledge I am a Zora's house girl. I, um, which is kind of an adult sorority. But Zora's house is an incubation tank and facilitator for women of color who are business owners in Ohio, specifically Columbus. And Elsie is the founder. And she told me, and she also put it all over socials, that the very first time somebody was like, so when are you going on vacation? And she just sort of let it go. And then about, you know, three to six months later. So when are you going to go take a rest? Just like when the work is done.

And it took her a very, very long time, I think, two or three years to go on her very first extended holiday or sabbatical. And she's out right now. She's in somewhere being off grid, which is good.

Right.

But one of the things I've noticed about leaders is it takes something bad to have happened for you to be convinced that it's now time for you to rest. What often looks like privilege on the outside feels like a lot of responsibility on the inside. You are the person in charge and all of the weight is on your shoulders and it can't possibly go on without you. When really that's not the case. That's really a whole lot of ego, passion, but also ego. And so I wonder if, you know, leaders, while they may say, I'm tired or even I'm burnt out, I wonder what will take for them to actually sit down, lay down, relax.

I can say from my own perspective, especially when I look back and think, in my corporate career, I was so extrinsically motivated that if I sensed that there might be something that would jeopardize this path, I would just say, you need to keep going. You just need to tough it out. Push through, push through. And when you're doing that, which I oftentimes think it relates to your seeking validation from those outside forces, the sickening part of it is that when you did push through, you did get the applause. You did get the. You are. And, man, wow, we count on you. And.

And it's. It's insidious in a way.

Yeah. It's not a lie. One thing I will say, and I think this one's really, really important, is that this system really rewards you, pushing past the pain and getting hurt. So much so that when famous athletes like Simone Biles comes to mind, famous athletes who are like, no, I'm gonna stop now, stop. So that I don't get hurt in future. The world is in uproar. Well, you're at the top of your game. How could you.

She wants to be able to walk when she's 50.

She wants to be able to walk when she's 50. So to me, being able to rest, as opposed to what you have just described, because what you have just described is the system that we're in. You push past the pain. You have accomplished something. The world rewards you. But did you actually enjoy that journey or did you suffer for years to get that thing you wanted?

Of which most of the time, at least in my experience, when you did get that thing, you found it to be very unsatisfying.

Did you even enjoy it?

Yeah. Yeah.

So I guess really the remedy to burnout is learning how to enjoy the journey. And that includes a lot of time to put your ego and even your responsibilities and wishes aside to just be a human and get some rest.

Yeah. Yeah. So with that 77% number, and I know that probably you could probably slice and dice that data as to how many are in whatever camp or whatever role, do you find that it requires a great deal of humility and vulnerability to raise your hand to say I'm teetering or I am burnout?

Yeah, it does. Especially vulnerability. In our corporate system, there is no admitting of a flaw and there's almost never asking for help. There's only domination, control. You don't ever want to contract, you always want to grow. And so the idea that you may decide to. In fact, I call it self pruning. So for me, I go through a regular process of self pruning.

There are parts of me that while I enjoy those parts, they are not serving me at all. And it's almost like cutting off parts of yourself. When that happens, will you allow yourself to grow out of that or are you gonna allow yourself to get stifled?

You know, it's interesting, Liz, that you mentioned that. I saw this interview, read this interview. It was years ago with a. A winemaker. And it was. This person was like coming out to them to like, show me what it takes and what it's all about and wine making and was with him for an extended period of time. And the period of time that, that really, really struck me was when they were doing the pruning of the. In the vineyard.

And this person, he knew, you know, pruning the idea, but he had in his head, it was like, you know, when you go out to your garden and you just cut off a dead limb, you know, type thing. But I guess in wine making, I mean, it's aggressive.

It's aggressive.

It's a very aggressive process. And he. He asked the winemaker, why do you. Why? I mean, it's like there's nothing left. What you. What did you do? And the guy. Guy says to him, pruning is always a tool for growth.

I love that.

Oh, my gosh. I sometimes wish that I could remember the winemaker. But I'll never forget that. Because I think to your point, right. In doing something like that, you personally, I think all of us, even as it is a painful process, no doubt it's a tool for growth. Right. And here's what's interesting, and I don't want to go too, too far off, but I think there's a connector, because I would imagine there probably are leaders out there. Maybe they're in hr, maybe they're in a leadership position where they have direct reports.

And they would say, hey, wait a minute. If that person came to me and was vulnerable and humble, I wouldn't reject them. I wouldn't make them feel. I wouldn't ostracize them, whatever. And the employee might go, I just. I don't. Yeah, I don't think you'd handle it. And then this person's, like, shocked.

Right. And I think it's a call to leaders at the very beginning to make sure that you see and hear your people. Because that, to me, is what builds trust. And, Liz, if I've built a trust relationship with you, and then one day you come to me and say, I don't think I can, you'll feel safe. You'll feel like, I won't be rejected, I won't be ostracized. I will be supported. So the pathway for helping people with burnout starts when there is no burnout.

Yep.

You know what I mean? Do you know what I mean?

That's exactly. I mean, there are two different things that you can do. Number one, you can set up a space and a policy and an agenda in which your employees do not become burnout, which is difficult, it is hard to do. But you can also acknowledge, hey, there has been some burnout, there's been some policy, there's been some action. What have you, Trauma in the workforce, in the building. And now we're on the path to restoration and recovery. When you get injured, I say this all the time. Cause I'm a yoga teacher.

Also say, my shoulder is injured, and I actually have a rotator cuff that I've been in physical therapy for for a while. My Shoulder's not the only thing that injured. It's just the weakest joint. It's just the weakest joint. If there's pain, there's pain elsewhere too. It's just showing up right here. Burnout is a symptom of a much deeper pain, especially in corporate America. It's just showing up and everybody's fricking tired.

Wow, that's pretty profound, Jeff. I think at this point, and I don't know if I've ever done this on any of our shows of the 155ish. I think we just need to sit with that for a minute because that's pretty profound. Probably wasn't a minute, but Liz. So if there's a deeper problem, then we have to have sort of the support pillars to help address that. And I want to be clear. I am not in a camp that believes that my employer or an employer is responsible for my mental, physical, spiritual and emotional health. However, these things don't happen in a vacuum.

So it would seem to me that there, and I believe there are. This is not my statement of like throwing missiles or launching missiles at corporate America, but do most people feel like they have that support for the deeper problem?

Maybe add this or maybe say it a different way. You said 77% of the people. What makes the 23% different?

That's the real question, isn't it?

That's great.

That's the real question.

And I don't know, I mean, has Gallup done that part of the research which I. I mean, who knows? I don't know. So I'll let you speak to that. How about that?

I don't know 100%, but I do not believe Gallup has yet done that research. Here's just what I can tell you in terms of anecdotal findings.

Okay.

People who struggle with burnout less have huge and very well connected social systems. So they have lots of friends, they have lots of family they can count on.

You're not talking about people they go to the bar with, you're talking about.

I'm talking about people they can do business with. People they can tell their secrets to. People they can work with, people they can go about their days with.

Non judging people.

Non judging people? Yeah. Kind, loving and very supportive people. Yeah. People who. I will say this. People who are often not burnout, have good quality sleep. They usually ingest quality food, like real food, if you can imagine. People who are not burnt out often have some sort of physical movement regimen that's almost always daily.

They More often than not, have some sort of mental practice like meditation, prayer, breath work, something like that. Artistry of some kind.

Is it faith practice in there?

Absolutely, absolutely. I consider faith practice a mental practice. I know that's silly, but it's also true.

Yeah, I understand that.

Yeah, yeah, there is, there's something that's been on my mind a lot lately and I know before we started recording, I, I talked to you about women's health and by the way, for our audience, we'll have Liz's information by Ohio, how to get a hold of her. She specializes in this burnout space, but it, it's deeper than that, which is what I love about her background. It's not just a business model. It's much deeper than that. But we were talking about women and women's issues. Can we maybe shift to. And maybe it is inside of that 77% to what women are experiencing, right. As it relates to burnout? Because I think sometimes, and you might disagree, Jeff, you might disagree with me here.

I sometimes think when you are in the, quote, minority, there is outside and inward pressure to. I got to perform at a higher level than fill in the blank others. Right. That feeling that, yeah, for John Smith, it might be okay to work 40 hours a week, but I've got to work 50 because of maybe past inequality, past trauma, whatever it may be. And I want to be fair in this, in saying that some of that is self induced. Right. Again, I can go back to my corporate career and, and I know that when I felt, sometimes when I felt the insecurity and the need to push, it wasn't because someone had said something to me or treated me in some way that said, you are inferior, so therefore you've got to work twice as hard. It was Eric telling Eric, probably based on an old story that I had in my head, Right.

That I needed to do that. So I say that with empathy for, for women in that regard. But can you talk a bit about the burnout as it relates to women today?

Burnout as it relates to women. I suppose a few things are in play. One of them is our lack of health resources.

Okay.

And we talked a little bit about this before the podcast started, but there are so many women's health issues that are actually humans health issues, but because they just so happen to happen in a woman's body, they're not considered preventative care and they're not included in regular checkups or regular care. And so part of that, because.

Can I interrupt you on that one?

Yeah.

So what would Be an example of not included in preventative care.

One of the ones that I've been on lately is pelvic floor health, and it really grinds my gears. Like, men have pelvic floors, women have pelvic floors. Most people in America have bad backs. Your pelvic floor muscles are. One of the highest indicators that you will have back problems is if you have an either too tight or too weak pelvic floor.

Okay, all right.

But women do not have this as preventative care. They only have pelvic floor health if they're already pregnant or. Or have already delivered. Men don't get it at all.

Wow, that's interesting, because now I'm remembering when my wife was pregnant. I remember them saying, you'll need to. You should do these exercises.

That's the only time they ever cared about the base of her spine. That really grinds my gears. The base of your spine? Yeah. The most important place we all sit as Americans, we all sit all day.

You know, it kind of takes me into thinking, oh, gosh, Liz, do you have three hours today?

I make time.

I make time for this because I'm thinking, you know, a lot of times inside of that medical community, it's reactionary. Oh, there's an event. Okay, do this. Oh, you're having this problem. Okay, do this. But the preventative side, it's not there. Yeah. Wow.

Hormones also. We were talking about hormones before.

Yeah. Yep.

In my journey, I have realized what a large play muscles are in my overall health. And so for me, almost everything in my life and in my body is from a joint perspective. And muscles just facilitate my joints, especially as a yoga teacher, as a mobility coach, I consider myself a person who views life in terms of my joint.

Right.

And muscles do all the heavy lifting. Literally.

Yeah.

And so if I ignore them until I've had a child, which if you.

Said, hey, that's age 28 to 35 or whatever. Yeah.

And especially, you know, you know, the worst part about sexism is, is that it also ruins men's lives. And so there are so many men out there who just don't even know they have a pelvic floor. Don't know what it's for, don't know what it does. Have back problems all the time.

Once again, I'll go back to the reactionary approach. A friend of mine had prostate cancer, and I remember him mentioning that was one of the things they said, hey, you're going to need to do this. And it's great, obviously, for him to do it based On. But again, Elizabeth, if I would have asked my friend so how many times was it mentioned to you prior to the cancer diagnosis? He probably would have said never came up. Yeah, that's just part of me says that's insanity. Go ahead, Jeff.

Sorry, I'm stuck on the numbers again. If you take the 77% and the 23% at the end of the week month, who gets more done truly gets good work done. Not just. I just watched the movie Office Space. Not just filling out their TPS reports. I don't know if you've ever seen that movie, but actually got good work done. Which one of those two groups achieves.

That? I'm gonna be completely honest with you now, that all depends on your timeline. Okay, people, who So I have a girlfriend of mine, her name is Ashley Burton Mims. And I'm really glad that I have this platform to talk about her because her very first ever burnt out burnout experience was with me as an event planner and she was the one who really turned me on to burnout. Well, she was telling me about how slow productivity, she's like, read this book slow productivity. And I was like okay. And I read it and he was talking about legacy mindset versus quantitative mindset. Okay, so he as an author and as a person who does not observe the 40 hour work week and doesn't really have necessarily deadlines other than publication deadlines, but he's given the time and space and creative time and space to really just be himself, be at his own schedule. That person is a author of 23 books, multiple articles, many awards, prizes, publications.

He's not only had awards and stuff in this country, but in other countries. He's not only written books in one language, but many languages. Was he productive as opposed to an entry level employee who is doing tasks for 40 to 80 hours a week because that's how much work they actually need to make ends meet. Are they learning anything? Are they accomplishing anything? So to me it's really a question of timeline and your definition of success. I can tell you that I've spent the majority of my life and I've been working since I was 14. I've had a job since I was 14. In fact, this is the only time in my life I've never had had a job, but been a business owner. I've never had so much time.

I've never had so much time to myself or creative time. I've never had such a lax schedule ever. I am more accomplished, awarded and productive than I have ever been in My life.

I think it's interesting because we were talking about music. Ah, cute.

Here we go.

We were talking with our producer about the music business and the lack. Well, I don't even know if there really is a music business anymore. Unless you're Taylor Swift. But Beyonce. I mean, those two have. They're in a music business, but we buy into these norms, right? It's almost like when you cross over into adulthood. As soon as you cross over someone, like, there's this group of people in black suits that say, okay, here, you need to understand something. This is how it works.

This is what work means. This is what family means. And you cannot deviate from this. And if you deviate from this, ooh, scary. You're gonna fail. It's gonna be cataclysmic. Right? And I. And I would imagine many in our audience, I felt the pressure.

And okay, I'll go do this. And, okay, I'll do this. Right. The wake up comes, I think, to your point, when you start to realize about, well, what is productivity and what is success? And could it be that maybe this system we're in has been lying to me all along? Maybe lying might be an extreme word to place to it, but almost like a. A form of deception.

I would call it ignoring. The same way that we ignore our body until there's a problem and then go around insulting our body like, I've got a bad knee. It's disobedient. We ignore our people until there's a problem and then insult them.

But you know what's interesting about that, Liz, is there's this. And you probably remember this Jeff from Josh Friedman. It's just like emotions. At the beginning, an emotion will probably be more of like a whisper, like a gentle, hey, pay attention. If you don't pay attention, the intensity and the level of the. Continues to grow and grow and grow until probably you'll get to a place where it will be so overwhelming, Boom. I have a bad knee. Well, not really.

Actually, 10 years ago, you remember that time when your knee said, ooh, I wish we would just rest a little. You said, I'm gonna keep going.

Your mother gets on your nerves, so you don't call her. Every time you call her, she complains about why you don't call her, so you don't call her. So finally you call your mother because she's freaking on her deathbed.

Oh, my gosh. Wow.

And the first two hours of the conversation are all the things you missed because she slightly ignored you 10 years or annoyed you 10 years ago.

Yeah.

And it becomes this weird, vicious cycle of you ignored the whispers, you ignored, you ignored, you ignored. Now there's a problem.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so when I think about our system, it's that it's not necessarily that anyone's out to get me. It's not necessarily that anybody has lied to me, but they are ignoring me and we've got a problem.

Yeah. Interesting. So I'm gonna go back again to the women's side of the equation. What are some common contributors for women specifically to burnout?

Honestly, they're the same as everyone else. They're just to a different degree for women. Lack of support. And that looks like support is in the household and out of the household. So speaking as a working woman, we can talk about how little accessible funds are to women entrepreneurs and women business owners and women. Honestly, in general, only 1% of VC funding ever goes to women, and much less, much less to women of color. We can talk about the lack of support in duties and roles around the house. I'm very lucky and blessed to own a business that gives me freedom and have a husband who does most of the bread earning.

But that does mean that at home I act like a stay at home wife. And there are a lot of working women out there who are not stay at home wives, who act like stay at home wives and are around the house doing all the wife work while the husband and possibly even the children aren't helping either. And that's very, very common, that women will get off their first shift at work and do their second shift as wife and their third shift as parent and possibly even a fourth shift as a daughter or a community member caring.

For an aging parent, literally anything.

Caring for your neighbor, a parent, anyone.

Yep.

And so the idea that you know essentially from sunup to sundown, even if it's not work where you're earning money, you're working.

Yep.

Does it give you anything to look forward to? And that's obviously not only women, but it definitely is to a different degree. And then when you have all of those things on your mind, like your job and you're not making enough money and the stuff around the house that still needs done, and there's dishes piling up in the sink and they're just irking you and you had a weird conversation with your significant other today and your mom got on your nerves and like all that stuff, and you're, you finally have 10 minutes before you get to bed and every thought that you've ever just not let come out of your mouth is now running in a constant loop in your head, and you don't get quality sleep, and the thing starts all over again the next day.

The next day. Yeah.

And it's been compounded for years.

So if we handed that particular woman the mic and in the audience, right in the front row were her audience, what would she like them to know, do you think?

I can't speak for all women.

Yep.

But I remember being that woman.

Okay.

Honestly, I might get emotional. I was on my knees, like, praying and begging was just like, God, give me back my time. And if you give me my. My time, what an amazing steward I will be of my time, and I will prove to you that this is a huge blessing. And I finally got to a point where I stopped caring about money at all. Like, I had had three jobs for three years to buy my first house, and I was a success. I was a corporate success, and I stopped caring about money completely. And I was like, finally, finally, I'm at a place where time means more to me than money.

And if you just let me have it, I won't really need anything else.

Wow, that's pretty inspiring, Jeff.

Yes, it is.

And I'm so glad I'm in your tribe because it's very liberating when you no longer allow money to have this place. Oh, gosh.

It's.

Oh, my gosh. I'm so encouraged. I'm not alone in the universe, and I know there are many out there in the audience. You know what Liz is talking about. And I. For those of you that don't, I hope you find that because it's freeing. It's freeing.

Also, you make more money when you stop caring.

Like, isn't that an interesting talk about that? Right? Yes, I think. I think we. Again, it's kind of this. You know, the system tells us, no, no, no, no. You've got to get close to burnout in order to get to what you want. And if you want this, you've got to do this. And. And I.

And I though, I. I love your perspective about being ignored. I. I just. I also can't get around this. I mean, we talk a lot about. And. And I want to bring some of this up in a minute about intrinsic versus extrinsic.

Right. It's all these extrinsic forces just peppering us with these messages to go the opposite way of what we know to be true in our core. And I get it. To be true to your core requires courage. It requires vulnerability, humility. All of these Things. But, yeah, I think there is something to that idea that when I. I call it a healthy indifference to.

Begins to want to come closer to me. Strange, right? And it's almost like if money were a character, it would be almost like money saying, I'm so glad that you figured out what my true purpose is in your life.

Oh, I needed to hear that.

Right.

Thank you.

Because. And I'm speaking from experience, everyone. I mean, I need so many years in my freaking life thinking, no, I need you to be this. I need you to validate that I'm a good, solid person. I need you to. I can show the world that I could do it. When in reality, money all along is going, that's not what I'm here for. You got to figure that one out, dude.

One of the most misquoted Bible verses is, money is the root of all evil. No, it's the love of money is the root of all evil.

Yeah. Key distinction there, right?

I would even go beyond love. The preoccupation.

Preoccupation, Whatever.

You go.

I don't want to contest to our Lord and Savior, but the preoccupation with money does weird things to people.

Well, I think it fits in there. If you're loving something, you're preoccupied with it, but. Yeah, no, I totally get what you're saying.

The reason why I say that, you know, I grew up in a very Christian household. Zealous. And they were obsessed with the concept of greed. So it was the purposeful and moral shunning of anything that looked lucrative or opulent or like, you had money. We would. We would judge people who came from money and who claimed, you know, would earn it all on their own. And you could look at them in a certain. Well, you know, they're greedy.

So, you know, and it was such a judgy thing. Whereas in the world, or maybe in the system, it's this almost like worship. The exact opposite.

This.

The hoarding and then the pursuing and, like, the love of. The worship. The preoccupation. Because money dictates most of your actions these days.

Yeah. And I would tell you, this is for the young and the older. Ish. No one fully understands the timeline. And I know for me, part of that freeing of the mindset set me onto. And I've used this term before, Jeff, here, this optimistic urgency. I need to be doing the things that will hold weight beyond my years. Right.

The pursuit of money doesn't do that. Because when you think about the pursuit of money, there is maybe you could say, well, I Will be able to leave it to another generation, another part of my family. Yes, that's true. You could purchase more things, you could own more things, you could maybe have more influence. But in the end, will that stand the test of time, present and eternal? That's the key question. And I'm not judging. I'm not saying I've got it all figured out to know what will and what won't, But I'm cons. I find it.

There's a correlation. Whenever I have pursued and made it a preoccupation, it was all about Eric, full stop.

Yeah.

Right. When the freeing part that we talked, then all of a sudden, it became more about others. And I found that, wow, there's tremendous value in others and the things that help them figure stuff out. Right. Or to live a better this or to fill in the blank. And it's the fulfillment side of that equation. You know, I go back, I grew.

Up on a family dairy farm.

Where?

Jamestown, Ohio.

Oh, yes. I was in Chillicothe.

Okay.

Yep.

And family run. And I just. I guess I learned a lot of this just from the example of my parents. You know, when dad would buy a piece of equipment, it never had to be brand new. Okay, this is what we need. Or that. And then what I loved learning was how my mom and dad worked as a partnership. And in different ways than you would think.

You know, mom did the cooking, dad did all the grocery shopping, you know, mom took care of the calves, dad. Just how that worked as a partnership. And I think that was one of the biggest things to their success as parents, as spouses. I learned from dad early on helping people is more important than anything else. He was the kind of guy, he always carried a five gallon can of gas in the back of his pickup truck. So when somebody ran out, you know, that's just how I learned. And I feel blessed for that.

But.

Yeah, I don't see that happening like it used to.

Why do you think that is?

Well, both my parents were children of the Depression. Dad was born in 21. 1921. My mom was born in 24. So that's. They learned they just couldn't get things. They, you know, there wasn't the money to be had. So they learned early on other things were more important than that.

And I. We've had downturns, but never like that.

Yeah.

And maybe we need that again.

I don't know. So when we think about purpose and intrinsic motivation. Right. I know when we think about looking back over our lives, you know, I kind of use the analogy of if I take the things that I've done in my life, looking back, and I put them into a furnace, which of them would go up in smoke in seconds? Which of them might last for a little bit and maybe something would be preserved from it? And then obviously, the maybe obviously is what will be the things like gold, what would be refined, you know, what could I take away from that experience? And I liken that to the intrinsic and purpose. When we think about. And we'll keep cover this one, men, women, whatever. Do you think that having a purpose, being maybe majority, intrinsically motivated, can help be an ally from things like burnout? Because I know as an entrepreneur, I've had my moments of where I'm going, ooh, warning. You're kind of.

You're getting. You're on that path here. So I know it's not just for those who are in a corporate situation or whatever, but what is the impact, do you think, of purpose and intrinsic motivation on maybe again, being an ally and keeping you from moving to burnout?

I think that that's a complicated question.

I know, sorry.

No, it's good. Because, you know, the counterpoint, your purpose can also drive you to burnout. And the only reason why I know that is because I just so happen to know a ton of nurses and the healthcare industry. Their burnout rate is out of the water. It's wild. But can your purpose also save you from burnout? Oh, yeah, I've seen that too. I've. I've.

That's my life. That's my story. That's a good question.

Can I. Can I add something to that? That just what you just said really kind of keyed in, in my head. I think part of this process is I think when you're more intrinsically motivated, more purpose driven, maybe you tend to say no more than you say yes. And here's where I'm going with it. When you are heavily, heavily weighted and extrinsic forces, Right. It seems like you're always saying yes to things because you think you need to say yes. Right. You mentioned, in addition to your other ventures, being a yoga teacher.

Right. And let's say somebody comes to you as an investor and says, you know what? I think we could explode this thing, open multiple yoga studios. Maybe we start regional and we could even take it national. And you could be. And you could be. You could be. Right? Mm. But let's say, Liz, that's never what you intended.

You wanted one studio. You wanted just your sphere of influence. You had no desire to be the nationwide blah, blah, blah, that's intrinsic. Which would probably lead you to say, I appreciate you thinking of me in that way, but that's not a fit for me. Extrinsic would be. We go back to the money thing. We go back to the. This would validate.

This would. This would. This would maybe almost try almost fooling ourselves into believing that when there are a hundred of X, then I will be fill in the blank. So I think of it in terms of the healthy side of purpose, and intrinsic is turning you into more of a. I'm being more selective. Does that make sense?

It makes fully sense. Yeah. I still don't think I have an answer. You're making such wonderful points. All I can tell you is, for me, while I am driven and motivated. And you know what, the other thing I want to talk a little bit about, because most people believe that motivation happens before action, but motivation is a direct result of action.

Ooh.

What happens before action is curiosity and willingness. I don't know what I'm doing, right? I'm. I'm in my second year of business ownership, so I can say this clearly. I don't know what I'm doing. I know that I have a purpose and a passion to create space. I love event planning. I'm weirdly so good at event planning. I'm weirdly, like, so good at making spaces where people can come and immediately feel relaxed.

It's been a shameful amount of years since I've been in business school, and business as a whole has changed. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just pushing the rock up the hill every day. So while I have purpose and I have passion, the motivation usually comes when something happens, right? I'm. I'm putting myself out there and putting myself out there. Eric calls me. All right, we're ready. Let's do a podcast.

Oh, my gosh. Like, yes. I'm excited. I'm motivated. Let's go.

Yeah, I get that. That's. That's. That's great.

And I get more energy doing it that way. Whereas the opposite way is say, for example, and I always come back to the body because wherever I go, my body comes with me. But say, for example, you're a girl who's scrolling on Instagram and you want the Instagram thoughty box, right? And you're just like, I've got to have the body. And all you're doing is consuming judgment. Right. And comparison. And you're not actually getting good sleep, eating vegetables, like, going to the gym. You're just consuming motivation me, quote unquote.

But there is no action and that's going to burn you out quick. You're going to get discouraged and maybe even like self sabotage. Then where are you? You're like on the couch, crying, eating sugar.

You know, I love that.

There'S the business aspect. But I go back when my wife and I first got married. We had that. We don't know what we're doing. Then we had kids and we really didn't know what we were doing. And it just, we realized that and instead of being motivated and muddled through, we got motivated to talk to people that could, well, okay, you keep your marriage healthy. Here's some things you need to do, and this is what you need. You know, we understood that not knowing was okay and that was the motivation to, you know, keep moving ahead.

I wish Jeff, was that more people would just be okay with, like, I know I don't have it all figured out. I don't, I don't know. I mean, and I, I've, I've. I found a correlation in entrepreneurism and I, and I don't know if you've experienced it, but it's really hard. It's. It's the hardest work that I've ever engaged in. Certainly the most rewarding in the sense of like, hey, this is a fit. I get to do this, right? I mean, I'm thankful every day, but it is hard.

And whenever I go on LinkedIn or if I see some other source of media that just glamorizes it, I'm going, they have no clue about what it is. Right? And I get it. I would dare say that even if Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg and fill in the blank name of a person were sitting here, if they were vulnerable enough and felt safe enough, they'd probably say, yeah, they have no clue. They have no clue about what I've had to go through to get here. And we might be surprised that they might go and use this in many settings. They may have that Solomon moment. I have everything, but I have nothing. I've gotten everything that I supposedly should, would love all of that, and it's leaving me empty.

So from that perspective, I think there's another factor in there. And you use the word action, and I think it's also connected to discipline. You know, that word. And I always have a struggle every day between I am wired and I think hardwired for the creative. I'm the type of person, Liz, where if my day has started. And I know I've got things to do, but I noticed that there are a couple of butterflies that are just fixated on that particular flower. I will stop and I will just look and I will take angles with it. And now, don't get me wrong.

The discipline side of me says, eric, you can't stay there forever, right? But I've also said, no, I'm not going to miss that, right? And so there is that tension there. But I think the discipline part, and I'll never forget this interview, I. And, and I always butcher his name, but I think it's Jocko Willinek. I believe that's how he pronounces his last name. But he's a former Navy seal, written books, you know, teaches people about, you know, exercise, health, nutrition, and discipline.

Yeah, right.

So this interviewer asked him, so how do you get motivated to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And Liz, the look on his face when that question was asked. And for those of you who are not able to watch the video today, he looked at the interviewer like, right, it was just this. And I go, oh my gosh, I wonder what he's gonna say next. And he says, and nothing to do with motivation. Has everything to do with discipline. He says, when I. I have to work out, I get up at 5:30.

Is nothing motivating me to get up at 5:30? I get up at 5:30 because I know I have to, because I have to exercise, and I have to do it every day. And I, I was so. I mean, it was like, yeah, he's right. And fortunately, I think all of us, if. And again, I'm not putting anyone in a box for our audience, right? You got to find your rhythm and your place and how it all connects. But one of the things I found within what he said that I find in my own life is that exercise is an example. I don't need to be motivated because I have days where I'm unmotivated to do the routine and whatnot. But the discipline in me says, go.

Now, I'm going to preface one other thing within that. I also have to be wise enough that if my body is saying, today's not the day, I'm not gonna push anyway because of my discipline. I'm going to say I'm gonna listen to my body, but that's an Eric approach. Forewarned and all that good stuff.

I agree with your discipline coach, but I would reframe it nicer, but only just cause I'm a sweet baby angel. So for Me, I've had a very interesting history with discipline specifically. In fact, I was having a conversation about this one my best girlfriends because I'm pro discipline. But she doesn't like that word. She thinks that word has a negative connotation and rather she would like self control. Oh, I don't like that word. I don't like self control. It has a negative connotation to me.

I'd rather have discipline. And so for me, what discipline feels like is me today is doing actions for future me. Like present me does actions.

Oh, that's a great insight.

Present me does actions for future me all the time. Because present me loves future me the most. Right? Me loves me the most. I love me. So. And, and here's how I know that that's true. Because after years of being disciplined and also we can call discipline just proactive consistency. But after years of being disciplined and consistent and proactive and getting in the gym when I don't want to and strength training when I want to, and all the things I can do, things like look in the mirror and be like, okay, like I see you, baby girl, like I see you, it's working.

Right? Because future me is deeply, wildly in love with the things that past me did. That's discipline for me. Self control just means something different to me. But other people can take it however they wish.

Yep.

And so the interesting.

I'm interrupting you and I, but isn't that interesting? And I think that's the role of our ability to be, to extend empathy, grace to others. Because like, when you mention like self control, I always think of it in terms of resisting a certain food or resisting a certain behavior versus when I think of discipline, I think of, okay, commitment and you know, paying it forward. So it's, it just. I thought about it as you were.

Talking there, so you're absolutely right. And so like, for example, in terms of, as you said, the, the discipline coach was like, I need to, I need to wake up at 5:30, I need to get in the gym. For me, it would look like I choose to. Future me loves me the most. Right? Past me loves me the most. So current me is going to get in the gym because I choose to love those ways women, right. I choose to eat healthy, I choose to stretch. I choose to stretch, y'.

All. Those are things that I do because I love me and they can be considered discipline, but really it's just self love.

Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. So when I think about, I'm going to kind of go Back to the women's side of the equation. And for our audience, yes, I am being heavily. I'm leaning heavily into women, Women's needs. So if you're a man out there, this next question is going to be for you. What kind of support would you say a woman might want from their partner, their spouse, whatever, as they are on this journey of, you know, temptation for burnout? You know, wearing three different. Having three different shifts, as you mentioned earlier.

What would you say, do you think. And I know you can't speak for all women, but. Right. But what would you say? Do you think they would say, hey, this is what kind of support I would like from my spouse, my husband, my partner, whatever.

I'll tell you something I noticed, I confess that I spend a lot of my time with women of color, specifically black women. And one of the overarching themes of black women is they don't really need your help. I'll see a woman, and she is struggling with all that. She's carrying, like, literally not even, like, physically carrying, like, a load of groceries into the house, Right? And she's got all of them in her arms. And, like, you want me to help you? I can go get the groceries. I can open the. No, I'm good. So I will say that if you find a woman who actually asks you for help, consider it a privilege, because women do not like asking for help.

Women do not like asking for help. It doesn't make us feel good. It makes us feel like weak women. When a woman actually sets her ego aside and is like, you know what? Actually, I really need some help, consider it a deep privilege. Like, this is your time to shine, men. A woman has asked you for help. This is the show that is just my take.

So let me go where you're at there. So if I'm again, partner, spouse, husband, whatever you want to use, wherever it applies to you. And I go, oh, hey, Liz. She never asks. Yeah, no, she never asks. And I know that she. That she's gotta need it, but she won't ask. What do you say to that person?

Honestly, start spoiling her. Like, just start. Just take out the trash. Don't let her ask you to do it. Just do it. Like, open all the doors.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So you're talking about proactivity, right?

This is discipline. This is discipline. This is consistent product. Consistent proactivity is discipline.

So an example might be right. Maybe even in small things. Right? So let's say that your partner, your spouse, again, drinks tea, and every morning you Know that she drinks tea, right? So what you do is you get up before her and make sure that the tea container, kettle, whatever is full and ready to go for you might even go another step. And you might, you know, because they have these things now where you can put the setting and keep the water hot for extended period of time.

I did not know that.

Oh yeah, it's awesome. We'll talk offline about that. But so you get proactive in that way and you go even a step further and you never asked, you never waited. And I love your perspective there. Don't wait, don't wait to be asked. Just go ahead. What role do you think? I mean, I'm going to make an assumption here and I know that's dangerous, but it seems to me the idea of being heard is real important. Which would mean, as in my case, as a spouse, it's being a better and better listener, not a better and better problem solver, not a better and better.

I've got the better idea, not a more and more. Let me tell you how it works and why you should do what I think you should do, but just listen. And obviously a pathway for that at least obvious to me, right? Is those open ended questions and then let you empty the bucket, if you will.

This is not a critique of women. This is something I've noticed as a woman. Sometimes men ask less questions but observe more. And I didn't know that until I was with my husband. In fact, it really bothered me that we would go on dates and I would ask him questions like how was your day? And what do you think about this? And la la la, just carrying on conversation, you know, and he would never reciprocate asking me questions. And I was like, okay, whatever. But he was almost always watching me, like he was almost always observing me. He really picked up on stuff that I didn't even know about myself.

And sometimes I would, you know, especially after we started living together, my bed was always made. Like he just knew I wasn't the type of person to make a bed. I come from a military dad and for whatever reason, even though I'm out of his house, I'm still rebelling. So I just like don't make my bed like that. And every day my bed was made. Like every single day. When after we started living together, my bed was made. Didn't ask, didn't tell, nothing.

And then one day, years later, he overheard me telling my roommate at the time that the reason why he is my husband is because when we moved in together, my Beds have been made. It was a small thing. Like, it was such a small thing. But he brought order into my day. It was something I didn't have to do, was something I didn't have to feel guilty about either. I never asked him.

Right, right.

It was just this gift.

So for our audience, this is a cue for me to say, one of the best things you can do in your relationships is to learn more about the personality of the person that you're spending your life with, to understand them. Some of that can be in the form of the Enneagram. That's our personal favorite. It can be. It can be all kinds of sources. I mean, I'm thinking about the love language thing. You know, what's a person's love language? And then you have to be, in my opinion, my experience, you have to be proactive with it. If your partner, your spouse, what have you feels love when you give words of affirmation.

Been start giving words of affirmation. And this is the part with discipline. Someone might say, but I don't know how to say. I don't know how to. Well, get over it and go find a book of words of affirmation. Right, Exactly. We're in the age of AI. Ask your chatbot.

You know, what are some good ways to have words of affirmation? That's just aside because I think, and here's what's interesting from my experience, you're.

Asking data for relationship devices.

Yeah, sorry. That is kind of a contradiction, isn't it? So it's interesting to me. I'm a four on the Enneagram. Right. And you can do the. All the answers. You can look up what a four is, but there's not many of us. I found that out.

We are a few group. But it's interesting to me that I didn't realize and know that I was a four, and that a lot of those motivations of a four and all that were very consistent with me until I read this book called the Road Back to youo. And for example, with music, music is sacred to me.

Amen.

Right. And so sacred. And this is a great. It's a funny story, maybe, at least to me. We were invited by friends to go see a local music musician. Right. Okay. And what it turned out to be, and it's.

I'm. I'm not throwing any type of critique or criticism of this artist, but it was the atypical hearing Sweet Caroline 40 times and everybody in the bar singing along with it, where most of the people are drunk. For me that. And again, it's me, Liz. It's my foreignness. I go, that's sacrilege. How could you do that to music? Right? So. Okay.

All right.

I feel you.

Feel me?

Yeah, I feel you.

So my wife and I went to see Lord Huron on Friday, this past week. Right? And I mean, the audience. I mean, it was packed, and there's people dancing all around. My wife is moving around. Right. But I'm there just taking it in. I'm listening to the chord progressions. I'm.

I'm noticing his voice and the phrasing. And my wife said, you know, I didn't see you moving very much. And I had. It was just. It's sacred. I'm in this place with it. There's nothing wrong with dancing. I wasn't, like, thinking, well, you.

You people should be listening to the chord progressions, like me. And did you notice in his voice? No, it's not that at all.

They're getting what they need out of the music. You're getting what you need. Exactly. I did the same thing at the concert. I talked about this three sisters from Mexico called the Warning. Have you heard of them? We saw them when they were in town a couple weeks ago, and it was the exact same thing. I stood still and I listened.

And what's interesting about that, oh, my gosh. There's this song that they do called I Lied, and it is the most. Is the most heartfelt song, but it will throw you off your game. And this is where I'm going with it. The song is about two people, a couple, who basically said, I know I said I would, but I lied. I know I said forever I will be, but I lied. And then it's like the woman counters him with, you know, when you sent me that letter saying that you lied, it was the happiest day of my life. My chains are free and it's.

It's just a. It is such an intellectual, like, turn on it. Right? And I get it, Liz. There's probably other people saying, you actually are paying you. You're getting into the. What were they talking about? Why I am. I'm one of those people who's like, did you. Did you hear what he just.

He just talked about being in Arizona, and then he lost his job. And, I mean, it's.

That's what it is. My daughter and I both love songs that are story.

Yes.

Yeah, That's. That's the key.

That's the story.

The story thing.

That's. That's important to us.

Yeah. And And Liz, the point, I'm trying to make it full circle. My wife knows that about me. I know that about me. So whereas when I was younger, I would feel, like, embarrassed, like I'm an alien. I just need to be quiet. I just go along. Just go along.

Right. But then when you start to understand, no, Eric, that's who you are. And it's wonderful.

I can remember when they started putting lyrics in the liner notes. And I'm going, yeah, I'm old, though.

Yeah. Wow. You know, gosh, this is so great. This is so wonderful, the constraints of time. But one other thing I wanted to get to before we close out today's show, talk a bit about what's going on in your world, specific to your entrepreneur ventures. And I'm curious about specifically within that, a NAP concert.

Yes, the Nap concert is coming.

Talk about that.

So one of the biggest issues about burnout, which we've kind of mentioned off and on, is lack of quality sleep, which really isn't something you can fix in an office. So no corporation is able to fix. One of the largest contributors to burnout at work. They have to find a way to assist you with burnout, you know, in and around your workday and just hope you can figure it out at home.

Right.

What corporate wellness has done is they've really disconnected one human from another human. So whereas you have like a app for, like a calm app for some meditation maybe. And these are all helpful things. These are all really good resources, right? Or even like better help therapy. These are really, really good resources. Something happens when you take humans away from humans. And so as a corporate wellness strategist, which is one of the things I do, and event planner, which is the thing I love, I built a corporate wellness event. It's called the NAP Concert.

It is a concert, live strings, acoustic and professional sound bowl artist. And it's also a networking event. So. And actually kind of a lot of names are coming. A lot of big names around Columbus are coming. So if you are a person in Columbus who enjoys networking but wish you had the opportunity to network in your pajamas, come have a nap, come to a concert where you get to have a nap, meet powerful and influential people in Columbus, you might find a job or whatever your next thing is and take a nap, get some rest, experience wellness.

Not that you. You haven't hired me as your agent yet, but, man, I have a feeling you probably are going to need an agent. So make sure you call me. Right? Okay. Because I'm going to suggest, because I'm thinking our audience is pretty diverse, not only in their makeup, but location. Right. So if someone says, liz, I'm not going to be in Columbus. But man, this idea.

Could you help somebody in Denver or in Seattle to maybe. Okay, so you're not limited. Columbus, Ohio.

I am an event planner. I have planned events in other countries.

I have a. Yeah, I figured as much.

Yeah. I have an international event planning business. It's specifically events that are tailored around wellness and more specifically, events that are tailored around burnout.

Yeah.

But I've built weddings, I've built sleepovers. I've built. Literally.

I love it. I love it. And maybe that's my foreigners coming out too, but that's awesome. Audience, we will have all of Liz's information in the show notes. We are so glad that you joined us today. And I gotta tell you, just personally, Jeff, I've loved having Liz on today.

And you know what? We may need to have her back.

May is not the word. We will have her back. She's awesome. Awesome. Liz, thank you so much.

Thank you, gentlemen, so much for. For giving me the time. I say this after every yoga class. It's not a lie. I think this is my tagline now. Thank you for the privilege of your time and your bodies. It's not a little thing.

Not a little thing at all. We look forward to the next time that we're together. Everyone take care.