Whether you’re a leader feeling isolated, someone longing for deeper community, or just looking for a fresh perspective on personal growth, this episode is all about finding meaning, creating space for change, and, as Joe DeLoss puts it, “hiking to the beginning” again and again.

Welcome to the Spirit of EQ podcast! I’m Eric Pennington, your host, and in this episode, I’m joined by Joe DeLoss—an entrepreneur many of you might know from Hot Chicken Takeover, but today he’s here to share something entirely new and deeply personal: Baker Road.

As Joe DeLoss and I talk, you’ll hear how he’s moved beyond just building businesses to cultivating a mission-driven community space that reconnects people with themselves and with nature.

Baker Road isn’t about productivity for its own sake, but about creating restorative spaces where individuals and teams can find clarity, stillness, and genuine connection—something we all need in our fast-paced, achievement-focused world.

In this conversation, Joe DeLoss opens up about what drew him to this work—a journey that started with a rite of passage experience for a friend’s son and grew into a vision for transformative retreats.

We also explore why so many of us feel nature is out of reach, how slowing down can spark huge personal breakthroughs, and why cultivating safe, authentic spaces—especially for men—matters so much right now.

Join us for a thoughtful, honest dialogue about what it takes to get back to ourselves and each other.

Joe DeLoss is a serial entrepreneur and servant leader focused on building transformational experiences and businesses for the betterment of everyone involved.

He’s best known for a Midwest restaurant chain he built and exited called Hot Chicken Takeover. The business gave Joe the privilege of leading nearly 1,000 people impacted by adversity, ranging from incarceration to addiction to bouts of homelessness.HCT earned critical acclaim as a break-out brand in the industry and garnered national attention, enabling Joe to encourage and coach countless other entrepreneurs and leaders towards impact. He continues this legacy of HR innovation through a fractional culture practice he co-founded called HRT Systems.

Currently, Joe’s pulling a new thread of personal and professional development by launching Baker Road, a retreat center andguide-service based in rural Ohio. Baker Road offers venues and experiences for individuals, teams, and leaders to truly retreat, allowing them to re-enter life and business from refreshed vantage points. From backcountry experiences to boardrooms, Joe is demonstrating the transformational power of hospitality, wildness, and grounded support.

Joe’s work been highlighted by The Today Show, Forbes, Harvard Business School, Politico, The Rachael Ray Show and manyothers. He lives adventurously and abundantly on a farm in Knox County, Ohio with his wife and two wild daughters. When not serving as a “dirtbag concierge” to Baker Road guests, he spends time training for endurance races, advising entrepreneurs, and dreaming up new adventures.

Moments

00:00 "Crafting Transformative Experiences"

07:56 "Noticing the Overlooked"

12:03 "Nature, Rest, and Clarity"

16:34 Facing Fear Brings Clarity

22:28 "Designing Transformative Retreat Experiences"

26:39 "Finding Growth Through Letting Go"

34:59 "Redefining Masculinity Through Vulnerability"

38:21 "Presence and Overcoming Small Burdens"

45:29 "Fostering Growth Without Destination"

49:34 "Unspoken Truths in Relationships"

58:18 "Guides, Not Gurus"

01:02:30 "Guide, Not Guru: Your Path"

01:04:47 "Gratitude and Future Talks"

3 key takeaways you can apply to your life and leadership:

Nature is a Tonic: As Joe shares, time in nature isn’t just restorative—it can offer clarity and valuable perspective that we rarely find in our busy, achievement-driven lives.

False Summits Are Real: Just like hiking a mountain, our professional and personal lives are filled with “false summits”—those moments we think we’ve “arrived,” only to realize there’s more journey ahead. Embracing that can keep us humble and open to growth.

Leaders Need Safe Spaces, Too: Even (and especially) high-impact leaders need places where they can be seen and supported as humans—not just by their titles and achievements.

In each episode, Jeff and Eric will talk about what emotional intelligence, or understanding your emotions, can do for you in your daily and work life. For more information, contact Eric or Jeff at info@spiritofeq.com, or go to their website, Spirit of EQ.

You can follow The Spirit of EQ Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Android, or on your favorite podcast player.

New episodes are available on the 2nd and 4th Wednesdays every month!

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Music from Uppbeat

https://uppbeat.io/t/roo-walker/deeper

License code: PEYKDJHQNGSZXDUE

https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/

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The SEQ Development Report is an innovative tool that combines emotional intelligence with one's spiritual life, distinct from religious contexts. The report helps individuals understand their connections with themselves, others, and their surroundings. It aims to identify areas in their lives that may need improvement and highlight their strengths, ultimately facilitating better navigation through life. To obtain the report, individuals need to contact Spirit of EQ via email at info@spiritofeq.com and complete an online assessment that takes about 15 to 20 minutes. After the assessment, a debrief session is required to review the comprehensive information provided in the report. Spirit of EQ also offers further coaching to support individuals in their personal development journey.

Joe DeLoss, welcome to the show.

Hey, Eric, thanks for having me.

It is great to see you. And I know we talked a little bit before we started recording and maybe even previous. I have been so curious about what you do, what you're up to. Many in our audience may remember the brand Hot Chicken Takeover. However, for our audience, I hate to disappoint you, but we're not going to spend a lot of time, if any, on Hot Chicken Takeover.

Rest in peace. Hot Chicken Takeover.

Hey, there you go. There you go. What's interesting to me, Joe, is that, and I knew a little bit about it because you kind of gave me a sense of this maybe a year or so ago about, I wouldn't even call it a venture. It's almost in my mind like a mission, a purpose that is called Baker Road. And for our audience that are looking at video on this episode, you can see in Joe's background, there it is. So Joe, let's start there. What is Baker Road?

Yeah, if I'm being super candid, Eric, I feel like Baker Road's a little bit of a field of dreams right now. I am building something that feels really aligned with some great partners and I'm building something in hopes that people will show up a little bit.

So.

You know, Baker Roads, a new community business of mine, really intent on building kind of restorative space for people to do productive work, whatever that means, either professional or personal. And, you know, really aligned with kind of my heart and my own development. This is intent on building restorative space that's grounded in nature and what nature has to teach us. And perhaps that's a starting point and.

Yeah, that's great, that's great.

How can you talk more about programming?

Yeah, yeah. So I'm also curious what drew you to do this? I mean, what, was there a moment in time or was it something that just kind of built over time?

Yeah, maybe a combination of a few things. A few years ago, a dear friend asked me to kind of craft a rite of passage experience for, at that time, his 13 year old son. Oh, wow. And so I, I, I was recently kind of transitioned from my contribution at Hot Chicken Takeover and had some time and space and myself was spending a lot of time. I was, I was training for some endurance events and was spending a lot of time in nature and had time and energy to commit to this task that a friend asked of me and kind of thoughtfully crafted and invested in, in this idea of what that experience could be for my friend's son and my, my Friend who also participated. And that little spark, alongside of the many other kind of variables in my life has all. Has all gelled into to this new opportunity, which is to actually have phys, physical spaces, teams, logistics, other things, and how do we craft experiences that are right size for the participants. And that was just the start.

That was the first one.

That's interesting. Were you surprised by your friend asking you to do that?

No, I, you know, of. Of the people kind of in my peer group, I've been planning adventures for people since I was 17.

Oh my gosh. So, yeah, then it's kind of a natural in a way.

Yeah. Have been doing it for a while, kind of like in my own personal practice and spiritual practice, just in. Feel deeply surrendered and in place when I'm grounded in nature and have. Have spent a life outside of my entrepreneurial pursuits, constantly finding personal opportunities to express myself in the outdoors. Backpacking, trail running, mountain biking, plenty of other reckless adventures, you know, have fit into that. And, and, and I think that what's gelled around that is also realizing how inaccessible nature is to many people.

Yeah.

And. And how one of my favorite writers, Bill Plotkin, talks about nature deficit disorder of just folks. Folks that for one reason or another have found kind of that wildness and expression in nature to be something that's not, even though it's right outside of their door, not something they feel comfortable kind of connecting with.

Does that mean. Or would you interpret that as a hey, Joe, I'm too busy, I've got meetings, I'm too busy, I've got to be in Los Angeles next week and I'm preparing for a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Is it an overlooked thing?

I think that's absolutely part of it, which is we've just been conditioned to high output, to achievement, to really driving from, you know, if you're not exhausted and grinding, you're not doing it right.

You know. Yeah.

Which I. My entire life, and even to this day, I am still addicted to that edge and am constantly trying to relearn that some stillness is okay.

Yeah. Wow.

I think that's part of it. I think similarly, we've. For somehow our engagement with nature has somehow been managed in a way that makes it feel like this isn't safe. It's not safe for me to be in these environments. You can't go into a public park without signage about where you are allowed to go and where you're not allowed to go, which is kind of the antithesis of our wild natures. And so I think Baker Road in a variety of ways and tends to be a little bit of, of that in between, of how do we access this wildness in ways that we can tolerate is safe. And, and so we get to help build that container for people, whether it's outside of an executive meeting or on a men's retreat or on a women's retreat or, you know, whatever that, whatever that format might be.

So, and you've mentioned nature multiple times here, and I know that's a bedrock, perhaps, probably, but, and, and we're going to get to more of that. I just have to go back to a personal story. One of my favorite places on the planet is Dawes Alboretum. And you're familiar with it because of location where, where you're at. But for our audience, this is a, it's an arboretum that's located in a very unsuspecting, I guess, place in Ohio. But I love that place. And my wife and I would typically go together as our couples thing, right? But maybe two years ago, I kind of had set forth like, sort of a goal or a vision about going there on a regular basis alone, right? And the first time that I did it and I was walking through and it's a beautiful place. I know you know that, Joe, but for our audience, it's just, it's just beautiful.

There are Japanese gardens. It's got everything in, in my mind, and I'm walking past this tree and, and for context purposes for our audience, I've been going to Dawes Albertum for probably 20 years, one time or another, you know, and I'm noticing this tree and I just, I stopped, and this was in the spring, so it's kind of budding, you know, And I go, I've passed this tree so many times, and I don't think I really ever noticed it. And I started to reflect a bit. It's like, what was going on in my life that I thought I could just walk past it and it just be, oh, yeah, there's a tree. And I, and Joe, it was like this Zen moment, right? Where I'm kind of going, this tree has been speaking to me even when I wasn't listening. Now a lot of gratitude kicked in because I'm going, oh, my eyes are open now I see it. I, I, I feel this moment, right? But it just made me think how many things that I just kind of, oh, yeah, there it is. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah.

And not realizing that there was something very rich there for me in that moment, right? So when you say it that way it makes me go, yeah, there is something in nature that, am I being too bold to say it's calling all of us.

Yeah, I, I mean, Thoreau has this great line essentially saying we all need the tonic of wildness, you know.

Oh, gosh, that's. Well, that's, that's him, right? I was gonna say what an awesome quote.

But yeah, you know, and I, I think of, I think what I love about that, the tonic of wildness, this idea that for so many of us, we've been conditioned to be kind of drunk and intoxicated on dopamine, that we can get through, you know, the achievement, the recognition business. I mean, this has played a huge critical role in my life. And so I also love that idea of being intoxicated by wildness. The tonic, you know, of like that the thing that can cure us. And so while we, we generally spend so much time being distracted by these kind of dopamine inducing things, the idea to be actually cured, medicated by this tonic.

Yeah.

Is something that really resonates to me, that, that greatness, when you contemplate that tree or contemplate that space in nature, someplace like Dawes, that is so thoughtfully curated and so beautiful, but to really be surrendered by that greatness and that complexity of, of what nature has afforded you in that moment is a really, really powerful tonic, you know?

Really? Yeah. Right. And, and you know what it makes me think about, Joe, is that it didn't scream at me, it didn't holler for attention, and it didn't demand that I, that I look right. And it was almost as I, as I think back, it was almost, I felt like it was saying to me, I'm going to be here and I'm going to do what I'm going to do. You can join or you can not. And I think that's important, right. Because if it was demanding of me, then it becomes another task. It becomes another got to get this done thing.

And I wonder, Joe, and this is kind of veiled, but maybe I'll turn it to the question, is it a requirement? Do we need to slow down in order to get this tonic?

I mean, I think, I think it's really critical that we at least create refreshed vantage points for ourselves. And I believe nature can afford that when you're, you know, I was having a conversation with an executive leader that I was hosting for Baker Road on kind of a one on one guided adventure just the other day. And in this conversation we were talking specifically about the business practice of like taking some moments, coordinating some moments to get clarity. And he had it on his calendar, you know, he had on his calendar a 30 minute spot on Monday mornings to get clarity, which is great discipline and great practice. But alas, we have taken something, we've constructed this, that the calendar that runs your life is now going to be the calendar that affords you this moment to just take a break. And so I think while such a great practice is also just the idea that you need to coordinate 30 minutes to be still. And I think when we inverse those relationships, when we decide that, what if I rest a little bit more in my human nature, that has a more natural frequency to it, a flow of presence, that makes more sense. I think the open question to me that I choose to observe in myself is, yeah, what would actually, how much abundance could we manifest and create if we spent more of our time in that reflective open space contemplating the opportunities we have in our material, business lives or our production lives? My hunch is that we would generate a lot more value all around.

But that is a significant shift, I think when we, we talk about the type of programming we're fostering at Baker Road, you know, the intent is that we don't have an answer for you other than cultivating space and, and an opportunity for you to refresh your own orientation and time after time. And in both, like grueling physical exertions in the backcountry or an executive boardroom in the woods, what you recognize is that the greatness of nature and the greatness of what's always there for us can yield really abundant and impactful approaches to whatever the problem somebody might be approaching is. It doesn't take much, just some thoughtful space and an openness to listen to what that space yields. As you know, you had the courage in that moment at Dawes to slow down and kind of be in relationship with that tree and not to have a transaction, but just to be present for a moment to appreciate the steadfastness that you. That for one reason or another, you needed to feel that day, you know? Yeah.

You know what, Joe? It's so interesting. It's one of the reasons why I love doing this show. There's so many things where I go, oh my gosh, that's a breakthrough for me. So I'm going to share with you briefly and for our audience, and the audience knows about part of this probably from past episodes. I took a trip out to Washington State. My daughter lives in that area and very avid outdoorsy girl. Right. And her husband as well.

And they wanted to go on a hike. Now Joe, remember I'm in Ohio and when you tell me we're going to go on a hike, that might mean Hocking Hills. Right. It might mean a park for all. But they were talking about Mount Rainier. So it's a trail in Mount Rainier, near Mountain Rainier. I'm also afraid of heights, so it was a little daunting because as we were, we were starting at, I believe the elevation was like 6,000ft and the trail ended at like 8,000 thousand. So it's interesting through the process of it.

Yeah, I was very nervous and I mean, I probably remember every single step I took and I could name what it looked like and what was happening because I was so focused on please don't let me go careening off of a cliff type thing. But as humorous as that is, and I completed it, so there was a sense of accomplishment that I did it right. But as you just said what you were saying, if I can put it that way, I realized even in the midst of my challenge, with the height and my nervousness and deliberation and all of that, I gained so much clarity at looking out and seeing Mount Rainier. And it just, it kind of though that happened about a year and a half ago, it's like, yeah, it did offer me some Claire, it did provide me with some clarity. So I'm saying all that, Joe, for the benefit of our audience too, that go ahead and be nervous, go ahead and be afraid of heights, go ahead and think you can conquer the mountain, go ahead and do whatever that is. But as you leave yourself open, I, I'm, I'm like, with you, it's got something for you there that can lead to the breakthrough. And that most practical thing, like, hey, what are we going to do about this acquisition? Or what are we going to do about the budget? It's, it's, it's uncanny. And it's almost like I would say just go ahead and take the invitation and go.

Well, I, and I think, I mean what you've just so eloquently laid out in your own experience is this idea of you, you had enough trust in your, your daughter and son in law.

Yeah.

To extend yourself out past an edge. An edge for you and the edge of that fear of heights, a literal and figurative edge. To be surrounded by that. And I think for those of us that are, it's so easy for us to get mired in the details of our calendars and the details of that, that strategic initiative that we have to roll out, you know, by this time. And I've been drunk on all those same things myself, so I'm. I'm not, you know, I'm recovering too.

I'm recovering too, Joe, so I get it.

Well, and those addiction to those achievements are the things that are rewarded culturally.

Absolutely.

And, and so, but you put yourself out past your edge and it forces you into a kind of presence that is only connected to what matters in that moment, you know, and. Yeah, and I think, you know, so much gratitude to your. Your daughter and son for, for cultivating that space for you to do that.

Yeah.

And I. I think to some degree that's the space that I. I want to exist in too, is how do we. How do we professionally curate with rich hospitality, with the power of the uncertainty that comes from those experiences as adults? There aren't many phone calls you get that are surprise calls that yield something positive that's happening. Most surprises as you get into the second stage of life are not good ones. They're truly happening. They are happening, you know, for us, not to us, but they're generally hard. And so I think to cultivate rich experiences for people that include the dissonance of uncertainty, that include some unknown or actually can be really, really catalytic for us.

And, and once you put that into perspective, when you go back to that board decision or they all feel appropriately tiny, you know, Appropriate.

Oh, that's good, Joe.

That's really good.

Appropriately tiny. I love that. I love that. So let me. That that might be a good launching point to talk a bit about who's coming to Baker Road and maybe why. I realize you probably have a diverse audience, male, female, executive, individual contributor, entrepreneur, whatever it may be. But if you could maybe just talk a little bit about who's coming to Baker Road and why are they coming.

Yeah, I think you're right both to say that it's kind of diverse and from different access points that are people coming in. And the other reality is this is a new thing. And though I imagine we might have more focus as we grow right now, we are growing just based on invitation. And so we have some unique ideas of programming that we're offering and want to offer. We can talk about that, what we know. But alternatively, I think when people feel the call to gain access or some relief or retreat, a lot of what we've done has been because somebody like you calls and says, hey, I. I have a group of folks that I'd like to get out to retreat. Would you be interested in hosting Us and we say, yeah, curious, it feels aligned or we feel competent enough to curate space for that group.

And so before I maybe offer some more specifics, I'll offer a couple anecdotes of folks.

Sure.

And so a great example would be where we had a group of friends that a group of male friends that had spent time regularly kind of gathering together and they'd go to Vegas and spend a weekend in Vegas to just recuperate because of what life has afforded all those men. Uniquely, that does not align for them anymore. And so they, they want a more restorative experience, an experience that's deeply invested in relationship and brotherh and knew that Las Vegas wasn't the setting for that anymore. And so they invited us to consider a retreat for them. And so we're designing, you know, and imagining what that retreat could look like based on where they're each at individually and all of those things. Yeah, so that's an example of an invitation that feels great. Similarly, you know, that's an experience that we will be the guide, meaning we will curate that whole thing. Alternatively, as our programming grows, the other place we're finding it's really beneficial is just as a host where another business consultant or wellness practitioner is regularly gathering people and we just become the hospitality partner and maybe the nature guide.

And so those are invitations that feel great too. Where I feel the most called as a practitioner myself and as a service provider is beyond those small groups is really with key kind of executives at organizations that feel like they don't have a great place to retreat themselves or they feel isolated within their businesses. And so though they might have an executive coach, what they need is some accountability to get themselves out and refresh their perspective. And so I really love stepping in for somebody in that way, which is to take a high impact leader who is kind of blinded by the urgency of everything surrounding them that doesn't have a lot of safe space to express themselves and reflect openly and to get to be out and craft space for somebody on a more individual basis feels great. And so much of our programming is evolving to cultivate spaces for those kind of invitations.

So, you know, it's interesting when you mentioned that high impact leader, and I know with those type of leaders that we work with, I've gotten a sense over time that many of them have this longing to be seen as they are. And, and it's almost, it's almost that thing, you know, I think about LinkedIn, right? You got the name and then comma. And then there's this you know, there's all kinds of letters and things like that. And I'm not indicting that, Joe, as much as I'm saying I think when that starts to become part of the identity, it's like they're being introduced to the world not just as who they are, but who that title implies. Right. A la. Oh, you're the CEO. I should be nervous, I should be impressed, I should be angry.

I should be. And not realizing that how that person came to that role is not necessarily connected to who they are as a human being. So sounds like to me, and I don't think you're going to correct me, Baker Road is a place where they can go and just be them. Am I, am I on to that?

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the hope. I mean, I think in my own experience, well before I kind of transitioned out of Hot Chicken Takeover, Right. You know, I was so compelled and connected to all of those things, the letters, the achievement, you know, whatever it is.

Yeah.

And in many ways, you know, we as contributors, particularly in the business world or in the entrepreneurial world or the high impact leader world, those types of things are so celebrated and so romanticized. And I hit, you know, my, my hardest bottom as a human for myself, my personal bottom. And, and there might be others to come, but this was the first significant one I, I, right where I, I felt like everything was crumbling for me and it was alongside the meteoric rise of a business that everybody thought was the, the best thing. And so, well, well, I was experiencing some of the kind of deepest cut hardship of my life. I had everybody else telling me that everything was perfect and great and it was my own attachment to those things that led me to that bottom. And so I think what was remarkable is as I, with support, with countless folks that were helping me intervene in that moment, that as I kind of unattached myself from those identities, is actually also where our business started growing, where our business, where I, when I once I liberated myself from all of those things that I thought I had to do to meet material success, that's when our business became more abundant, made greater impact. All just in time for a global pandemic, you know, of course, but it happened just as it, just as it should. And so I do want this, this idea, this Baker Road, that in many ways is a decentralized retreat center, but we want this space to be a destination for people to get clarity and retreat and are cultivating ourselves as practitioners, as guides, as, you know, backcountry safety providers, or whatever that might be to ensure people can do that.

That's awesome. That is awesome. When we talk about, because you, you laid out maybe the, the two sided coin, right? The one where you're being asked to curate and design and then the other is where you're maybe in many ways you're the host. Right. So do, when you're asked to curate. And I'm thinking of those who might be more urban minded, right. Who maybe have an interpretation that maybe even like my Mount Rainier example, right. Oh, we're going for a hike.

Oh, no problem. I'm going to wear my Nikes and we're good. Whatever. How do you manage that through the design process? Do you give them sort of that, hey, you need to understand, here's a warning or how do you go about talking about what curating would be?

Yeah. So we, we want to do discovery with anybody that is going to come into our fold. And so part of that discovery is if I'm talking to you, Eric and I, I want to know, hey, like, talk to me about your experience in the outdoors. Talk to me about your comfort, you know, also talk to me about your, you know, your preferences, whether they be nutritional or. And you know, all of that's to say is we want to meet you where you're at and help you thoughtfully go a couple steps beyond where you're at. And if I know that you want to wear, you know, tennis shoes to hike in Mount Rainier and I'm probably not going to take you on a eight day expedition in the backcountry, that's not going to, that's not going to be a fit.

Well said. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It makes total sense.

And so I think for us a lot of that is just listening and having an idea of what that is and what, what, whatever feels accessible to you. We want to go a couple steps beyond that, but not a. Sure, couple leaps.

Yeah, you don't want somebody saying I'm out type thing. So one of the things that in our past conversations, Joe, I got a sense from you that you had a bit of a burden for men. Right. And I know Baker Road is not exclusively for men only that kind of thing, but I want to talk a little bit about men and some of this is rooted in I had a listener that said, hey, I heard that guest that you had on and she was talking about women and what they're dealing with and are you ever going to do something for men? And then of course, then Joe, your, your face came into my brain and I started thinking, well, that could be. That's someone who I'd like to ask. So I want to talk a little bit about the state of man men. Excuse me, and, and I'm not going to ask you to go clinical and I'm not asking you to give me. And I'm not going to turn you into Scott Galloway, who's going to express, you know, the problem with young.

But what are you seeing? I mean, you're exposed. You have them coming to Baker Road. What are some of their great challenges or things that keep them up at night?

Yeah. So, yeah, first for context for the listeners, what that initial rite of passage we talked about, helping cultivate that for my friend's son has now probably taken about 100 men, unique men, out on a very similar adventure, which is a pretty hard, four day, energetic expression in the backcountry on a hiking trail in Pennsylvania. And so I think when I consider this question of where we're at. And yeah, the good thing is I have no clinical experience. All I have is my intuition and my own experience as a man.

And that's what I want.

I love it.

Yeah.

And also I would just acknowledge I'm pretty open about having a really hard experience as a broken man. Feeling like my inability to connect, to really understand where I was at, led to the suffering of a lot of people around me because I was so unregulated. I was so attached to things outside of myself. All those achievements we talked about that I had a really hard time and it took a cultivation of reflection of introspection, hard conversations with myself and hard conversations with others to get there. And I think what I've seen time and time again on our adventures with men, and in one on one experience with a lot of, a lot of men as well, is that we have not cultivated or been provided with many safe spaces to access those conversations.

And Joe, can I interrupt you on that one? Because I think that's a really good point. These ideas, safe places, and I've even qualified it in some of the sessions that we've done and actually now it's probably a pretty regular part, is that to clarify that safe places doesn't mean that you're weak and fragile and might break at the moment's situation. Right. It's the meaning. Safe as in this is a place where I can be transparent, I can be vulnerable and I can feel I can do that in a way that is authentic. Right. And that those are my words. Right.

However, I think it's important for our audience to Know that, that, that's, I'm not saying that that's exactly what you meant, but is it somewhat similar? Is that what you mean by those safe places?

Yeah.

Think.

We've been convinced that masculinity for the longest time has been about our capacity to be strong, firm, steadfast, unwavering, all of which I, I believe are a critical part of masculinity. But, but functionally we have been conditioned to not express those reflective questions about our own comfort or feelings of safety, about feeling emotionally distraught. And, and so I think the idea of a safe space is how do we express all of those things, all of those components. And I think recently to your point, to the question that was asked of you even just being able to have this conversation and to feel like some degree masculinity is in vogue around an emotive way, not a predatory way, which we've existed in for so long, I think is really, really important. And, and so our format, when we're, we're approaching kind of this dialogue of what a more kind of honorable kind of masculinity might look like, part of how we get there is that we cultivate a very physical experience. And so oftentimes our capacity to self preserve emotionally as men, what's been conditioned in us is so strong. And so I think it's really important to exhaust yourself sometimes physically because you, you lose the capacity to self preserve in that same way of like, oh, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna talk about that. Like, that's, that's weak.

I don't want to express that. But once you've expressed yourself so much physically, you know, and I, I say this hopefully compassionately as a man, but if you want to kind of train a dog, you got to wear it out first. And I was that dog that needed to be really worn out and really exhausted before I could really receive the gift and context.

You know, Joe, as, as I sort of jump in on you there because that's just such another great point. I'm thinking back to the times of when I just had exited the corporate world. And our audience has heard this, probably to nausea, but my first entree into getting into a regular exercise routine, right, because when I was an executive, I didn't think, I don't have time, I've got things to do. It's crazy, but my first attempt at it, you know, I, I couldn't run a quarter of a mile without feeling like I was going to have a coronary, right? But here's what's interesting to me that over time, as I built that practice, when I move myself to failure and I'm talking maybe it's exhaustion, right. There is a clarity of mind that comes to be able to kind of, okay, now I can, I can think clearer. I can, I can kind of, I know what's going on inside of me better. That that's what just came to me. And I, I, and I just what you were saying, it resonated well, getting.

Into our bodies, you know, physically attaching to that expression of energy allows us to be present in a different way and observe what's happening for us. And I, I think we've been, we've been conditioned as men to think if we're not tough and mighty, that we're doing it wrong. And the amount of times out on trail that it's not the physical distance or the weight you carry or something that ultimately leads a person in that lesson, but it's a small pebble that slipped into somebody's shoe or the small piece of a twig that somebody says, I'm not going to stop and deal with that, that bliss. That twig becomes a blister that becomes a debilitating force on somebody's whole experience out there because they just wouldn't be present for a moment to slow down, remove that blister, that twig before it became the blister, rather.

Right.

I think, I think having those visceral physical experiences is so helpful, particularly to men, but in many ways to all humans. But we've seen it firsthand time and time again with men that have participated in our backpacking.

Okay. Right. So I kind of jokingly mentioned Scott Galloway, whom I really like a lot. I like his, a number of his views on things as it relates to man. So, you know, he kind of has the perspective that younger men. Right. And I would imagine that would be the Gen Z's and maybe younger millennials are in a state of crisis. I'm not going to ask you to, I'm not asking like, well, how many millennials and Gen Z's do you guys see? But if you could give me an example of a high impact leader who's coming to one of your experiences.

What are, what is it that they're looking for, do you think? And I, and I mean, I know you mentioned some of that, but, but if you, Are there any other area, any other. Are they looking for? Hey, I, I'm, I'm at a crossroads in my life. I'm not sure I want to continue or what does that part look like, yeah, we.

We on that particular program and. And product or backpacking retreat we've had. Our ages have ranged from 13 to 62.

Oh, wow.

I think average age is probably, like, early 40s across all.

But.

Yeah, so generally. Generally we find that. I mean, we're. We're open to whatever calls people into these adventures and offers.

Yeah.

But oftentimes it is, you know, feeling like I'm in a season of change or I'm at a critical point. I think the world right now. One of my favorite teachers talks about us being in a collective rite of passage. You know, the world is in a liminal space and we're contemplating what's ahead, and people are feeling that internally. And it might be, oh, my, My family's entering a different season. My kids are leaving the nest. I am just having kids. But it's hard for me to think of a single participant that hasn't been contemplating some moment of change that's happening for them.

And perhaps a desire that the way I was present and existed for this past season of life feels like it's not going to serve me anymore for this next season. And I want to contemplate that and decide to show up differently. And to be able to open that question and open that moment in a group of others with some moderated guidance and other things and some care and nurture is a really transformative opportunity and an opportunity that's just not afforded to us. Our normal lives aren't built around that kind of reflection or openness, particularly for men.

Yeah. And. And when I think about, you know, here in the United States, where the emphasis is on what we said earlier, you know, what did you achieve? How much, you know, I. I sometimes wonder. I'm. I'm a big fan of the show Ted Lasso, and we've at times mentioned that show and the little antidotes and the. And the little, you know, the nuggets of wisdom. But, Joe, there was a scene, and this one has been recent, not the show, but just sort of revelation for me.

And it's interesting. Right. That. And I would imagine. And certainly we can talk about it. The transformation isn't just for those that are coming. And you're probably getting transformation as you're going through it with them. Right.

So I'm. I'm doing a session on empathy, and we had this clip. It was. I think it was the last show of the season and of the series. Right. Or at least at that time it was. And there's this coach who had received so much empathy from Ted Lasso in the history. Right.

Way back. Right. And gave him second chances. And. And, you know, Lasso does this all the time, right. They said, well, you know, if I did that for you or somebody did that for. For you, why don't you do that for this person? And he goes to this character whose name is Nate, and they're in this hallway, and it's. It's a very subtle moment.

Joe, he goes something to the effect of what I offer you is a job, but the life part is up to you. And I thought, oh, my gosh, how profound. Right? Because it really does, in my opinion, right. Come down to these choices, you know, that we're confronted with every single day. The idea that, okay, you mentioned this collective rite of passage thing. Okay, do I recognize that? And then am I willing to explore what it might mean for me to look for different approaches than the ones I've been using for the last. Fill in the blank time. Right.

So the life part is up to you. When you guys are at the end of an experience, you know, I'm sure maybe there could be some in our audience go, oh, wow, do you guys high five each other and hug and say, you know what, give me your email address. I want to stay in touch, but that would be too Hollywoodish. What are some of the sort of. That at that point in the journey, the quote end, what's typical? What happens then?

Yeah, I mean, in some ways, increasingly, as we. We pursue this field of dreams called Baker Road, right now, it does feel like we're just fostering a community of people that are committed to growth and support, you know, committed to being of service to others without condition, you know, which I think is the highest form of masculinity in my mind, the most honorable form. But I think to this question of, like, well, what happens? One thing we poll as a thread pervasively throughout our work is this idea of a false summit, that there are no destinations. And so if you've ever been out on a trail, and maybe you experienced this with your daughter out near Rainier, sometimes you're looking up this horizon of the top of the mountain that you're going to get to. By the time you get there, what you recognize is that it's just a bend in the trail. And.

I'm sorry, I'm being the worst podcast host ever, because what you just said, I immediately, I immediately went to this place on that trail. I. I mean, Joe. And I'm, I'm for our audience. You, you probably again, to exhaustion have heard me relay this. We're at this like midpoint of the trail and it's kind of this flat in between. It's like a valley that is. Is obviously in a higher elevation, right? And I'm looking around, I'm going, oh my gosh, we're halfway there.

This is great. And then I look to my right and Joe, it just. If you can see on, on my screen, this trail just did this right? But when I got there, it is exactly what you just said it was exactly. That was, that was what went through me.

Such, I mean such is life, right? These ideas of a false summit. And so much is like hey Eric, you're going to be okay because you're going to get to the top of that. That you're going to get to the top of this and you'll have achieved everything. You'll get a trophy and somebody will high five you. It'll be lovely just to get there and realize that that thing that I invested all of my contentment, all of my peace, all of those things in front of me that I future casted just to get there and realize, ah gosh, there's another one. You know, there's great book the second Mountain. You know, this idea of you get to the top and you see another mountain. And so we really want to encourage people that we're always just hiking to the beginning, we're hiking to preserve for that next thing ahead of us.

And so that idea, that kind of everything's a false summit, there's really no destinations is just another like a very kind of trail ready wisdom based on that experience you had that you've so viscerally connected to is this is life. You know, it's just a reminder to keep ourselves present in the greatness and complexity around us.

And Joe, if I may, I'm asking your position, your permission on our episode, I want to use that quote. We are always hiking to the beginning. May I use that? And I will give you credit for that quote as well.

You don't even have to give me credit.

Oh, I have to. Because it's a money quote. Man, that is so. That is so good. And I know there may be those out there that would say but but. And that's okay, you can have a but because if that's leading you to reflect more on what we're talking about here. Right? Because in my mind, you know, you, you do you create these false summits. When I get to, when I have this, when I.

And realizing that you navigate life so Much better by realizing that to your point, this is very much what life is. It's a series, it's, it's, it's journeys, you know, wow. So I'm gonna try to pivot from that, but that's just so powerful. Just so powerful. I got a bit of a surprise question for you and don't feel that you've gotta nail the question or an answer for the question, but in, in an episode that we did previously where it was focused on women, I, I did ask the guest. So what was. What is something that you think that that husband, that partner, that spouse would want to know as an experience of being a woman? So I'm going to say Joe, for the. With and obviously very diverse in many ways, what would they want their spouse, their partner to know that maybe gone unspoken over time about their journey, about what they're experiencing? You know, almost that, hey, I, I really hope she understands I'm trying my best.

Or, hey, I really hope he fill in the blank.

Yeah, I think, I think we have been, we have been kind of illustrated and conditioned to be pretty simple animals, men. And, and I actually just really in my own journey and with my, my partner Lisa, my wife, I, I am mostly in just reverence to the great mystery of the other gender because of the, because of the biological complexity, the power they, they yield. And here we are in, in bodies that have been. We, We've been kind of conditioned to believe. It's, It's a lot simpler. And I believe there's validity and truth to that. But it's taken a long time for me to cultivate a practice, to really understand and live into this experience in this body of mine. And I feel just eternally grateful to have a wife and a partner that's allowed me some of the grace and space to explore that and to understand that so that I could be of better service to the people in my orbit and in particular my family.

And so.

I, I think I feel really grateful for her patience and grace and compassion towards me and also her, her strength and her own steadfastness and also holding me accountable to a really high bar of contribution in our family. And so I wouldn't want to answer this question and say extend some empathy and patience for him. They'll figure it out. Because I think, speaking for myself, I need sometimes really, really thoughtfully and compassionately cracked on the head so that I can, I, I can listen and I just encourage people. If you're, if you're talking about this gender of men in my own experience, it's, it's not to be patient, but to hold us accountable and to hold us to account of what we're capable of providing and the way we're capable of serving. And I think all too often. We show up very poorly and it's tolerated and accepted. And really I'm thankful that the standard keeps rising and that it's part of the popular cultural dialogue right now.

But, but I think unfortunately there's also a pretty healthy dialogue out there that for people that are unable to do the work that entitles men to continue behaving badly, to continue showing up in adolescent ways. And, and I am, yeah, I, I think there is another way. And it's a hard path. And to the degree that we're able, we like cultivating this space for men to have that recognition and to show up in a way that is truly to serve others without condition versus to the space where a lot of men, if they take out the trash or they do a chore at home, they need the trophy and the accolade from their partner that they're a good boy and they're doing good work. And what an embarrassing adolescent show of masculinity. We should be members of our family and members of our community and show up in strong, honorable ways because it's what's needed of us, not because we need a trophy for it or affection or attention. And so, yeah, we have a long way to go and I'm going to keep trying to do better myself. Yeah.

And I think too, Joe, what I heard from you and, and I know it's not exhaustive, but this idea of accountability and the idea of patience, I almost liken it to the idea of grace and truth. You know, I want to give you, I want to give you the opportunity to mistake, make the mistakes that inevitably will come. But also I'm going to hold you accountable that you are going to mistake the adolescent part, which I think was great that you added that taking a grown man and giving them the approach that you would give a 13 year old is not healthy. Again, grace and truth is not an easy thing. I mean, it's just not. But I believe that if you can sort of build a practice of that and make it somewhat of your art, and I guess I'm speaking to the women out there, it can be very, very effective.

I think in this, particularly in nature of a relationship between a man and a woman, perhaps. But there's an inherent. I think the other piece for me that I've come to recognize is the true harmony of having both of those energetic expressions and some of the best work and the best learnings I've had personally is when I've been able to embody those more feminine reflective traits that have been encouraged or cultivated and that I've gotten modeled by some really powerful, strong women in my life, you know, and, and so it's, it's not that either of us should be the other, but that we should find really thoughtful ways to be in harmony together. And that's great.

Collaborative is the experiences that someone would have at Baker Road. Is it, okay, you've completed the experience, have a nice day, or do you have a way of where you continue that relationship onward?

Yeah. So increasingly we're trying to foster that community. Almost everything we do is in a run up experience. And so we, we call them cohorts short of like you're, you're coming for a destination retreat that somebody's. It hired us to do an experience like the men's retreat. We have two versions of that happening this upcoming year in 2026, both a format that is a little shorter mileage, that's more restorative in nature for men. And we're also adding an experience for women that's curated with another practitioner. But we do intend to build and foster community around those experiences that last.

But the one thing we've, we've really learned about ourselves is that we want to be guides, not gurus. And so we, as we cultivate these experiences, one thing is that we just listen to what happens there and see a lot of people rise up and step up to continue fostering their community. And so yeah, just later this week I'm showing up to a coffee hangout that one of our participants has curated for a whole bunch of people to just show and spend time and be in community. And so while we will do some of those things, we don't, we don't want to exclusively own those things as well. But we, as you illustrated earlier, sometimes being the provider is such a gift in our own practice to learn and grow. And so yeah, we get to, we both get to be kind of a steward and a guide, but also participants in our own ways. Continuing to witness the growth of other people is such a gift. And I walk out from any of these experiences without a level of self reflection about how I should continue to grow myself.

And it makes me realize too Joe. And you know, I kind of use the, and I think I may be stealing it from Bono. There's a line in a song where he goes, and I'm I'm far, far away from your hill of Calvary and I'm something. It's. It. I'm butchering it, but it has some kind of reference to. I'm not where I need to be, but I'm further than I was. Right.

And I always. I love that. And for those of you that are huge fans of U2 out there, I'm sorry that I butchered the song. It's. It's a song for someone, and you can write us and correct me, but it illustrates this idea that I acknowledge I've got more to do, but I can also acknowledge that I'm better than I was. I've made some strides. Right. And I think sometimes, you know, when we boil this down, the opportunity to be able to, I don't know, not only acknowledge that it's a continuation.

Right. And that it is something that I'm endeavoring to do. And my, My main point here is that. Understanding that though I'm in a. On a role, and our company, it does dispense information for teaching, for learning and all of that, I got to remember that has a. That has a line, and I should be very, very aware of it, because if everything is about me telling you how you should live and what you should do and when you should do it, I'm robbing people of the opportunity to discover. Right. To.

To. Almost to. Is the musical reference. Go. Almost to understand. Are. Are you more of a B minor 7 than a C major? Right. Because if I tell you it's B minor, you might dispense with your own desire towards C major.

You see where I'm going?

Yeah. I mean, I think it's spot on, Eric, that we. Yeah. We've been so convinced of our infallible importance, you know?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. One of my favorite lines, not from Bono, but from. From the writer Mary Oliver, she says, may I be the tiniest nail in the house of the universe. Tiny, but useful. You know, this, this idea of, like, we are significant, but we're significant as part of such a complex, greater structure. And so how might. How might we find our way to find our role and. And to allow other people to find their roles as well? And, And I, I, I think we intend Baker Road to be a catalytic force for people to gain visibility to maybe what that pathway is for them.

If you're stuck in the darkness, it's helpful to have a companion with a flashlight. But once you find your light at the end of that tunnel and you're pulling your own thread and that Might be that you came to a retreat and you got exposure to a whole bunch of different personal development modalities, from yoga to sound healing to journaling, whatever it is, so that when you find that light that connects with you, with your sovereignty and agency, and you decide, this is a path that I'm going to continue to go down to learn about myself, just let us cheer you on from the sidelines. Like, we're, we're happy, we're so grateful that we got to witness what we did and to be a participant, but it's your path. And, and that's, that's kind of what being a guide, not a guru, is all about, which is we just want to cultivate the space to see what you do with it and to get to learn from your connection when that light.

That's awesome. Goes off.

So, yeah, we want to be.

It's, it's an honor, right? It's an honor that you can be. You can be present for that breakthrough, for that light that comes on. That. That's just so profound. Joe, we will have all of your information as well as Baker Road in the show notes. And so I'm going to dispense with this idea. Hey, Joe, how do people get a hold of you? Blah, blah, blah. So, audience, if you are interested in things related to what we've talked about today and the Baker Road experience, as I call it, we'll have all of Joe's information in the show notes.

You can reach out to him. My hope is, is that you and maybe your organization or maybe your community might find value. And I did notice, Joe, you mentioned one of the hikes was in Pennsylvania. So it's not that you are confined only to Ohio. Am I correct in that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have curated bachelor retreats in the jungle of Kauai. We've gone on backpacking trips in Pennsylvania. Yeah, I would rather be taking this podcast interview out in the woods somewhere, but I'm instead in one of our facilities in an urban space because I didn't think I'd keep my teeth from chattering in the bitter cold that's happening outside.

To. I, I, I, I can't thank you enough for coming on. And I, I'm. This is just awesome. I've enjoyed it. I always enjoy our conversations, but it's great that we got something for our audience and they get to experience you as well. And we look forward to our next conversation, which is something I'm looking forward to even now because I've got other stuff going through my head. But anyway, audience, we do appreciate you tuning in today, and we look forward to the next time that we're together.

Take care.