We often think of caregiving as helping those with physical or medical issues. But there's another form – providing care to those facing emotional challenges.

We explore the nuanced role of emotional caregiving in our personal and professional lives.

We discuss the concept of an "EQ caregiver," focusing on the importance of providing emotional support to someone going through a trauma or emotional distress. This involves being present, empathetic, and establishing a connection with the person you're supporting.

Key insights

1. Empathy and Presence: True empathy goes beyond surface-level interactions. It involves actively engaging with others by asking insightful questions and listening without judgment. This approach helps to genuinely connect with others, offering support that extends beyond mere conversation.
2. Setting Boundaries: We highlight the importance of setting personal boundaries. This ensures that caregivers don't overextend themselves emotionally, which can lead to burnout or ineffective support. Being clear about your capabilities and limits is crucial for both the caregiver and the person receiving support.
3. Commitment and Communication: Understanding the level of commitment required is vital. It's okay to express when support needs to transition to professional help, and transparency in communication is essential. The value of honest dialogue about needs and limitations helps maintain relationships and fosters understanding.
4. Awareness and Self-Care: We emphasize the need for self-reflection and self-awareness. Caregivers are encouraged to assess their emotional state and ensure they are in a position to adequately support others without compromising their own well-being.

Key Moments

00:00 Empathy and Genuine Caregiving

12:51 Navigating Caregiver Boundaries

16:44 Seeking Understanding Through Vulnerability

19:42 "Communicate Honestly, Accept Perceptions"

20:39 "Commitment and Emotional Impulse"

24:08 "Reflecting on Life Choices"

29:27 Curiosity in Long-Term Relationships

32:20 Uncertain Conversations

36:12 Acknowledging and Overcoming Challenges

38:19 Avoiding "Me Too" Responses

46:44 "Unwavering Support Commitment"

In each episode, Jeff and Eric will talk about what emotional intelligence, or understanding your emotions, can do for you in your daily and work life. For more information, contact Eric or Jeff at info@spiritofeq.com, or go to their website, Spirit of EQ.

You can follow The Spirit of EQ Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Android, or on your favorite podcast player.

New episodes are available on the 2nd and 4th Wednesdays every month!

Please review our podcast on iTunes. Click on the link for an easy, step-by-step tutorial.

Music from Uppbeat

https://uppbeat.io/t/roo-walker/deeper

License code: PEYKDJHQNGSZXDUE

Spirit of EQ

We hope you enjoy the podcast. Hopefully, you're tuning in on a regular basis. We'd love it if you would give us a great review on whatever platform you're listening to the podcast. It's so appreciative and helps us as we try to get more exposure for the work we do and the episodes that we publish. We're grateful to you as a listener. Secondly, our content is for educational purposes only. It's not intended by any stretch to diagnose or treat anything that may be occurring in your life or anyone else's life that you may be connected to through the podcast. And as always, we look forward to the next time that we're together. Take care.

We hope you enjoy the podcast. Hopefully, you're tuning in on a regular basis. We'd love it if you would give us a great review on whatever platform you're listening to the podcast. It's so appreciative and helps us as we try to get more exposure for the work we do and the episodes that we publish. We're grateful to you as a listener. Secondly, our content is for educational purposes only. It's not intended by any stretch to diagnose or treat anything that may be occurring in your life or anyone else's life that you may be connected to through the podcast. And as always, we look forward to the next time that we're together. Take care.

Mentioned in this episode:

SEQ Development Report

The SEQ Development Report is an innovative tool that combines emotional intelligence with one's spiritual life, distinct from religious contexts. The report helps individuals understand their connections with themselves, others, and their surroundings. It aims to identify areas in their lives that may need improvement and highlight their strengths, ultimately facilitating better navigation through life. To obtain the report, individuals need to contact Spirit of EQ via email at info@spiritofeq.com and complete an online assessment that takes about 15 to 20 minutes. After the assessment, a debrief session is required to review the comprehensive information provided in the report. Spirit of EQ also offers further coaching to support individuals in their personal development journey.

Thanks for listening to Spirit of EQ

This podcast was created to be a tool to primarily help you to discover and grow your EQ. Science and our own lived experiences confirm that the better we are at managing our emotions, the better we're going to be at making decisions. Which leads to a better life. And that's something we all want. We're glad that you've taken the time today to listen. We hope that something you hear will lead to a breakthrough. We'd really appreciate a review on your podcast platform. Please leave some comments about what you heard today, as well as follow and subscribe to the podcast. That way, you won't miss a single episode as we continue this journey.

Hey, Jeff.

Hi, Eric. How are you?

I'm great. How are you?

Doing pretty good. We've got a a sunny, nice day here.

Yeah. Yeah. I think spring is calling. At least I hope that's the case.

Well, here in in Central Ohio, we call this fake spring.

Yes. Fake spring. Never say die, Jeff. Never say die. So I, was taking a look at, some notes and, in our conversation, and when I first did before we talked, you know, I was thinking caregiver. Wow. That that really resonates because I've been playing that role with a family member, here recently, specifically my son Mhmm. And my wife.

But you're talking about a different type of caregiving, even though I know this might have some connecting points. But Yeah. In general, what do you mean by a a caregiver as it relates to EQ? And maybe I'll just call it an EQ caregiver. Yeah. You know, when we

first hear the word caregiver, we normally think of something like what you were talking about. Somebody that is going through a physical medical issue and you need to have a caregiver to take care of them, whether it's a nurse or a home caregiver, things like that.

Yep.

But what I'm talking about is is when there's somebody in your life that is going through some kind of an emotional trauma, something that is really, affecting them. Mhmm. And, you try to give them the care, and I like to kinda maybe separate the word caregiver into caregiver.

Mhmm.

You're giving them your care.

Yeah.

You're giving them your attention. You're giving them, you know, a part of you in this situation.

Is that kind of like into the idea of coming alongside of someone on their journey?

Yes. It's it's yeah. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. You you're willing to be that person that is there for them.

There for them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The idea of being a caregiver, would you say that that relates as well to, sharing space with them as it relates to, how would I say it, not just listening to their story per se, but kind of having a a good understanding. Because I guess where I'm going with that, Jeff, is is that, not just in my current, time, but even as I look back over time, I can think of many people who something happened that wasn't so good. I told them about it, and someone expressed some level of empathy in the moment. But it was pretty clear that that was gonna be the last of it.

Yeah.

It's when we talk about empathy, which we're gonna talk about here in a few minutes, what true empathy is if you let's say you're just walking into into your office in the morning and you pop your head in somebody's office door and you go, how you doing? And they go, okay. And you know they're not doing okay, but you just walk on. True empathy is when they say that, okay, you maybe walk in and close the door, and let's explore this, you know, how are you really doing kind of thing.

Yeah. And, obviously, there's all kinds of nuance around that. Right? Because in some cases, if the person is not very open, you may have to try a different tact,

right Mhmm. Right.

To to approach them versus if it's someone who's worked with you for ten years and you've shared stories historically and they've always welcomed your

Right.

Your overtures.

Mhmm. Exactly. You you want you wanted to allow you want to allow this to happen. You you can't force it. You can't just, you know, be the bull in the China shop and

Well, and I know this from experience that, you know, sometimes in working with clients, there can be a great rush to, well, I wanna improve my empathy, so I should just walk on in and sit down, and I should tell them that I that I wanna hear their story, and I wanna and that's great on the face of it. Right. But not everyone is gonna want that, especially if if you're not sure where they're at Mhmm. Meaning where you're at with and I would say even to a certain degree, this is really a call to evaluate the relationship. Right. You know, where does it land in the, you know, sort of that hierarchy, you know, that kind of thing.

You may have some people in your life that you've known for a long time that you know that it's okay to go in and, you know, dude, talk to me.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right.

But that's that's gonna be the exception, I believe.

And you can always ask. Right? Mhmm. You can always ask.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, I think that's kind of the the most forgotten approach, I think, in so many things is that just ask them. You can you know, Eric, I I know that, you know, you're you're

not yourself. You can we can talk. You know, if you would you like to talk now or you know I'm always here?

Or Mhmm. Hey, Jeff. It seems like things are a little off. Mhmm. And I'm not trying to pry. Is there something that I can help with? Is would you like to talk about it?

What's going on?

And I'm sure there's three, four, five other ways you

can approach it. You have to do it the way you are comfortable doing it.

And, again, I I will go back to, like, really kinda get a sense about where I'm at in the relationship. For example, like, going back, oh, I've known Jeff for ten years. We've worked in the same office. We've shared stories. Okay. That's one where, to your example, hey, dude. Right? But if it's Jeff who's been there six months, I've had some passing conversations mostly about where are you from and how many kids or whatever.

Work stuff.

Work stuff. Mhmm. That one is gonna have a totally different approach Mhmm. Because the danger in that situation, if you come in like you've known me for ten years, I might immediately put up all the walls I can to what I perceive is to protect myself from you going places that I don't welcome you to go.

Right. Exactly. That that's a very good way to put that.

Yeah. Yeah. So, let let's talk about the warnings because I I feel like maybe our our audience might have might construe what we're doing here is trying to give clinical advice. Okay. So can you give us a few warnings?

First, I wanna start off with with these there's three warnings I have, and they are not something I read in a book.

You mean there's more than theory around the body to death?

There's a reason that these warnings are there. Okay. Okay. I said it without saying.

Yes. There you go.

You're not a therapist. I mean, you might be a therapist, but this is okay. You could be a therapist, but in this situation, what we're talking about is you're not a therapist. You're not there to diagnose mental issues or anything like that. So and and Eric and I have said this multiple times on the podcast that what we're doing with emotional intelligence is not being a therapist. Right. Okay. And we'll we'll end up with in with something about that too.

And you need to set firm boundaries. You you need to know how far can I go to this? You know, you and you need to have those boundaries set, before you start.

Can I stop you there on the boundaries thing? I I feel like boundaries are also the the the limits that you set based on what you're comfortable with. Yeah. Is that part of it too?

Yeah. If if this turns into something that, could be a trauma for you that you're not ready to deal with, it's okay to set that boundary. If it turns into, they're having money issues, you you might wanna set the boundary of, okay, I can't be their bank. You know, it could be a lot of different things, but but know how far you're able to go comfortably.

Well, and here here's, an example from my own history. Because of, that history from a family perspective, I had a lot of experience in visiting, corrections facilities, probably a good twenty one years of that Mhmm. And, some levels of trauma in that experience. So, Jeff, as I know, you have been in prison ministry. Mhmm. Right? And you've talked about going into prisons and the approach and the things you've done there. Yeah. And I've never verbalized it here, and I don't think I've even told it to you personally out there.

If you ask me to, hey, why don't you join this group I'm doing, and you could you could maybe play some music with us, and we could be there. You could you'd be great at it. I would decline. Exactly. Because for me, there is a boundary that I can only go so far with that particular area of life. And I'm sure there could be many out there that say, but hey, wait a minute, it's different and you could and I'm not here to try to debate the idea of whether or not I should be able to do it or on and on. But I think it kinda connects to if someone is looking to you, you you talk about, like, with money. Mhmm.

If somebody is saying, well, you know, you said you really care, and I'm I'm having difficulty paying my rent. I was hoping that you could, like, could you loan me some money to do that because I'm in a tough place. Well, you know, Jeff, if if that's not something that's feasible for whatever your personal reasons are, you need to make that clear. Right? Now maybe they didn't start that way, and maybe they did. Maybe they just said, hey. I'm I'm just really going through a difficult time financially, and I'm you know, I I could really use some help from you, Jeff. Well, I would hope, Jeff, you're gonna say, hey, I I need you to understand. I do wanna help.

I just can't go into that area to help you.

Well, you mentioned the the prison ministries, Kairos prison ministry, and we have very, very firm boundaries set before we go in. Mhmm. Some things that we we just do not do. You know, if if someone is is incarcerated and I need you to call my sister and tell her this. Nope. That's not what we're here for.

Yeah. I I, you know, can

you take this letter out that won't get read before it gets sent out? I mean, some of these things we can end up in jail,

but Yeah. Oh, sure.

But we have some other boundaries that we set before we go in, and that's that's perfectly fine to do that. Don't don't if you have to set a boundary, don't think you're being a less of a person because, like, you described us, yeah, you you could physically go into the prison, but if you're going into the prison with these these issues, you're gonna kinda be worthless in there.

Well, yeah. And which is really kinda connects to the what's the reason for giving care. Right? Mhmm. Is not to be worthless. And the recognition that whatever the my subject, your subject, whatever the bridge too far is Mhmm. It's a bridge too far, and that's that's an acknowledgment upfront. And for all of the Enneagram twos out there who tend to put people in front of themselves, I know it could be especially hard for you because there's a part of you that really, really wants to help.

It's yeah. It's it's a core of who you are.

Yeah. Right? But what I'm saying is and I'm gonna pull on the competency of consequential thinking. Mhmm. If I go ahead and join Jeff at that prison experience, I'm gonna be worthless. Oh, well, that's not fair to Jeff and the other people in the group. So you know what? I probably need to let him know I'm not the right person.

And, also, it's not fair to the people that we're trying to care for him.

To give the care. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Great great connector there. So I I kinda stopped you on the boundaries. You had a third thing.

Yep. Make sure you're ready for a commitment. If you within the boundaries.

Mhmm.

But if you are really trying to, help someone, be ready that there might be a commitment that, this, you know, this might not be just a ten minute conversation in someone's office. You know, this could be, once again, set within your boundaries. It could be a year. It could who who knows how long it is?

So does the person, do you think, have and I guess this would depend on the relationship, potentially, the ability to ask. Like, okay. Based on what you said you need, based on what you said your situation is I mean, I don't know of any better way to say it is I don't I don't wanna sound I don't wanna sound cold in when I say, well, how long is how long do you need my help? Right. But is there some way? Because, you know, I guess where I'm I'm stumbling in my thoughts, Jeff, is and it really has got me thinking. It's like, well, if you if you say, yeah, I'm committed, but the other person thinks that is translated to whenever, whenever, however, for however long. Mhmm. Because I know we haven't touched on it yet, but giving care, is not easy work.

No. No. And that that's that goes back into your boundaries because those boundaries may be okay.

A time commitment? Could that be part of the boundaries? Is that what

you mean? It's not a time you know, if I don't if I don't have you helped by Tuesday, I'm done. You don't say it that way. Right. But this is in the internal boundary. You're you're okay. Eric, you and you and I have been talking about this for a year Yep. And it it doesn't seem to make any difference. You you know

I like quasi the I I'm not sure I'm being of any help to you.

Right. Exactly. That's that's a good way to say it. And that's where, like we've said before, I'm not a therapist. That's that's the point where you might go, you know, you need to find somebody better equipped than I am.

Or have you given the thought?

Have you yeah. Given the thought to Yeah. Okay. I'll still be your friend. I'll still be here with you, but this is the point where

Well, what do you say to the person? And I I don't wanna get into typecasting Enneagram numbers, but what do you say to the person? I don't wanna disappoint them. I don't I don't wanna I don't wanna hurt their feelings by saying that I don't have any more to give. What do you say to them? Now you're on the spot, Jeff. Yeah. Sorry. I couldn't help it.

You're talking to a nine. If you guys don't know what a nine is Wait

a minute. Where did where did Jeff go?

The nine is the peacemaker. Okay.

So would you no. Okay. That's a good point, though. Would you say then you would have the tendency to potentially go, I don't wanna hurt their feelings. I I I I'll I'll I'll keep doing it.

If I'm not paying attention to me.

Right. Being an integrated nine or being a healthy nine.

A healthy nine. Yeah. If if you get to the point once again, it's just like what we were talking about before. If you get to the point where you know this is not beneficial

Mhmm.

That's when you need to gently say, and I'm not gonna make it it's not like making enough doing a breakup. It's it's not me, it's you. Or not you, it's me. Right. You know, don't do that business, but but let them know, you're not thinking anything worse of them, that you're not thinking they're a bad person, but, you know, say it in a way that I've reached my limit on of what I can do for you.

Yeah. And you know what too, Jeff? As I know we're and and for the audience, there is no perfect way to say it because every human being is different. All of us are very different. One of the things that I did hear once, from, Simon Sinek was it's okay to tell the person that I'm not sure how to tell you this. I'm I I actually I'm I'm afraid that I'm gonna just really butcher it. Mhmm. But I know it needs to be said.

Right.

So, I just wanna advance kinda, I hope you'll forgive me if it doesn't land exactly like I was I'm hoping it'll land. Mhmm. And I thought, how profound. Because that doesn't guarantee you anything, but at least it kind of it's I would think it would lighten your load as having to give that information to the other person. Mhmm. Because I think if if someone came to me and said, hey, Eric, I I I'd I've really been wrestling with this, and I'm I'm kind of afraid that what I'm gonna say is not gonna go over well, but I know I need to talk about it. And I'm I'm just really hoping that you'll receive it well. So here's what I need to say.

I'm probably gonna go, well, man, this person was humble enough and thoughtful enough

Right.

To not just come in and just drop the bomb or whatever it is. And I know I don't know what they're gonna say, but

They're trying not to hurt me.

And they're making it clear that their intention is not to hurt

Exactly.

Versus I think if it's been a year and I go, Jeff, I need to talk to you. I don't I can't do this anymore. You you might wanna consider that I and once again, I just really wanna stress to everyone, there is no perfect way to say this stuff. There's no perfect so I'm not giving you a script that's gonna guarantee it's gonna work and if you just say it this way, Simon Sinek or whoever else. I'm just throwing out ideas and ways that resonate with me.

There there is another way to look at it. The the person that you're telling this to might go, I feel the same way, and I didn't wanna hurt you because Yeah. You're not helping me.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So the idea of being ready, the last point was being ready that there might be a commitment.

Mhmm.

Is there another I I'm thinking about the value of counting the cost. Right?

Mhmm.

The idea that, you know, okay. I really wanna help them. I wanna be someone who gives them care. Mhmm. Am I good with what that implies?

Yeah. And you you have to look at everything else, I think, that's going on in your in your life at that time. Mhmm. By by helping this person, am I going to be taking away from my family? Am I gonna am I going to be hurting myself? That's that's an important part of it too because you need to be healthy to help someone that's unhealthy.

Right. And I I know we haven't talked about it, and maybe we'll get into it a little bit as we talk about competencies and things like that. But I think it's also important to note that even with your best intentions and your best selection of words to communicate, the person may not receive it well.

Mhmm.

Right? They may not be happy about what you're going to say them or the action that you're planning to take. Right. I would just the key thing is is being able to, with a clear conscience, that I did the best I could Mhmm. In trying to to communicate this point or these points Exactly. And to be able to live with the reality that some might think you're harsh, some might think you are not caring. Mhmm. But what's the old saying? It's none of my business what you think of me. Mhmm.

I mean and I know that's easy to say in a podcast episode. Right. Right? But when it's someone whom you care a lot about Mhmm. Or if it's someone whom you have a great deal of respect for, fill in the blank. Mhmm. Easy to say. Right?

Right. It's it's diff this is easy. If you're truly trying

Which I think should be factored in to the level of your commitment, the the idea that, okay, you're not because, you know, I think one thing that come leaps out to me too, Jeff, and and you haven't said it directly, is this idea that, you know, when we feel that emotion, right Mhmm. You know, I love I feel empathy for this person. Mhmm. It's easy to go ahead and just jump on in into the deep end of the pool. Right. Right? Because it does feel that way. Right? Mhmm. If you say you're in need and I feel like I can help you, I I I wanna go yes.

But I I I think what I hear from you is that's acknowledge that feeling. It's giving you good data there. Mhmm. But you also need to employ, well, let me weigh this.

We you know, we we're talking about outward directed empathy. You need to be sure you're using your inward directed empathy, your self empathy

Yeah.

That if you do feel, okay, that I've reached my limit, that's okay. That does not make you a bad person. That's actually a good thing to know that you've reached your limit and then to know that I'm not bad because of this. I didn't fail because of this. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's key because, you know, Jeff, as I gave you the example about the prison thing, I can't I can't walk out of here from our recording today and go, I should be a better person. I should be strong enough. I should be no. That's not how it's supposed to work, and I think far too many people apply this weight on their shoulders that was never designed for that.

The healthiest I ever heard anybody this is definitely for the prison thing was a a fellow that I went to church with, and he's looked at me. He goes, Jeff, I don't even like driving by a prison, but I know what you're doing is important. So these are the things I am going to do to support you, but don't expect me to ever step foot in there.

Right. And, right, and and I'm I'm sure I'm gonna point this to our culture. Uh-huh. Our culture would wanna point out to him, how could you say that? Those people need support. They need care. They need rehabilitation, and you could play such a great role in it. You are a this and a that and a this and a that. And I used to be in that crowd.

I'm now in the other crowd, the one that goes, wow, that's great that you have the awareness to know what you can and cannot do.

And the things that he did for this ministry were just as important

Yeah.

As the and I look at it this way, the ones of us that were blessed to be able to go in, he did all the other things. Yep. Raised money for us.

Yeah.

Put prayer list. You know, all these other things that have to happen for this ministry. But he had the awareness. If he would have went in one time, had the horrible experience, I'm sure he would have, he would not have wanted to do anything.

Yeah. Sure.

So Yeah. Him him being aware of this was an unmeasurable amount of support for me.

Well and I think, not necessarily relating to him because I don't know him, but I I think in general, the more we're able to authentically know what does work and what does not work for ourselves, the better we are to humanity

Mhmm.

As a whole. Right. And this is coming from someone who did things years and years and years ago because I thought I should do them. Mhmm. Right? And I thought, well, it's what is expected. This is the norm. And I can say after many years of having that in my rearview mirror, wow, I'm glad that I'm glad I never I didn't get to a place of where it was too late for me to turn it around. Mhmm.

And I think this is this speaks to it. And you know what, Jeff? If somebody says to someone else, well, I'm so disappointed that you're not willing to do this, I will validate that you have a right to feel disappointed.

I I had to struggle with someone at at the same church. They had a very strong nursing home ministry. That's the prison for you, that's for me. Going into nursing home, that is just something that is very difficult, And they I don't think they never did understand why I couldn't do that no matter what I tried to explain or or why it would not be a good idea for me to do this.

Yep.

And I don't think they ever reconcile. Well, you're going to prison. Do you like those guys more than

Oh, sure.

You know? I I'm sorry

too, Jeff, because here's a flash warning for you.

Yeah.

Miles Davis story coming your way.

Alright.

I haven't done this in a while.

I know.

I've I've kinda held back. So Miles Davis, before he died, it was actually I think he died not more than a few months after. He gave a performance in, Montrose, the Montrose Jazz Festival. Mhmm. And he performed with, Quincy Jones in this large orchestra. Right? And, they were doing all kinds of songs from, like, Kinda Blue, Miles Ahead Mhmm. Sketches of Spain, that kind of thing. You know, that era.

Yeah. Well, Jeff, I don't know if you know this or not, but Miles was kind of of the mind, I'm not playing that music again. And for years and years, decades, if you went to see him play live, he would not play songs from that era. Mhmm. Miles' approach was, I've already done that. He was always kind of looking ahead to what could be next. Right? But he did it. He made this exception.

Mhmm. I won't get into details as to what this you know, the story goes as to why he decided this time around. But I think it's important that even with him deciding to do it again, which, by the way, it's a fantastic record.

Oh, yeah.

Just a fantastic record. But his ability to go, yeah, Jeff. I I I could play songs from Kinda Blue, but I don't want to. It's not where I'm at. This is not it's not who I am. And I I admire that so much because that sort of forceful, I know what I can and I know what I can't. I know what I will and I know what I won't. Right.

It just as we're talking about it, I'm I'm going this is inspirational to the idea of and I think if you are going to be that caregiver

Mhmm.

These are the things to be considered. So I took you off on the miles tangent. I'm gonna bring us back and Okay. Let's talk about, one of your top things is leading with empathy. What does that mean? What does that look like?

We've talked a lot about it, but don't lead with the I'm sorry you feel that way.

Mhmm.

Which is, you know, if you say I'm sorry, to me that always be to me seems like that's putting you in a superior position. I'm sorry you're going through that, but I'm glad I'm not.

Okay.

But the true empathy, I you know, you and I have talked about it, that that little short Benet Brown animated thing.

Uh-huh.

Just you put yourself beside the person. You just are there is the most important thing, I think, with the empathy. Empathy doesn't judge or anything like that. That's not what you're there for.

Mhmm.

So just be willing to show empathy.

Yeah. Because part of the definition of it is appropriately responding to emotions. Mhmm. Right? The one that we use for our model.

Right.

And I think that that really sort of levels the playing field. Right? What's my appropriate response to an emotion in myself and with another person? Mhmm.

Yeah. So I think that's important. And then then I think the next thing is, use your emotional literacy. You know, when we talk about these competencies, we always kinda make them self directed.

Mhmm.

But pay attention to use your emotional literacy with this person. Try to to see as best you can what are they actually feeling, where are they at emotionally.

So does that come from asking them the question?

It could be. It could be directly asking them, but it's also just observation. You know, I've been married will be forty eight years, and I'm pretty good at reading Michelle's emotions. Mhmm.

But, you

know, somebody that you're maybe not quite that familiar with, just see what you can pick up.

I would throw out to you, Jeff, even in long term relationships, it's always a healthy idea to and I don't wanna say that you always have to ask, but I think there should always be a level of curiosity of, what this person could be feeling. And unless you and, again, I don't wanna rob you or anyone else out there that has a long term relationship, and you you're you're at a place where you're kinda going

Well, what I didn't say was when I'm paying attention.

No. Okay. Alright.

Well, here's got our producer grinning.

Yeah. Here here here here's what's interesting. Right, Jeff? Okay. And this was many, many years ago. I've been I've been married for quite a while. I remember, having a a very heated disagreement with my wife, and she starts to to cry. She's tearing up and, you know, and I thought at the time, oh my gosh. You've hurt her feelings.

I mean, she she's crying and she's walking away. You you know? So I'm thinking, I I my gosh. I need to apologize for hurting her feelings. I I I didn't intend to do that. Mhmm. And you know what I discovered? Her tears were not tears of hurt feelings. Yeah. Her tears were of anger.

Mhmm. She's an angry crier. Right? Mhmm. Now if I had to made the assumption and and, again, please, for audience, I'm not saying that Jeff is wrong for knowing how his wife might feel. It's not that's not my point here. My point is there should be a balance. Right. It's like a dance.

Right? If I would have just stayed in that mode and not recognized and not queried Mhmm. I would have thought this has hurt feelings. And you know what I found out over time, Jeff, there's more than a few people I've met over that, yeah, when I get angry, I start to cry. I I I it's that deep of an emotion. It triggers that. I'm one. Okay. There you go.

Well, I didn't realize that I was talking to a member of that club, but Right. You get it. Right? But it's easy, Jeff. Uh-huh. Right? For me to to say something to you and be, you know, pound the table. It's this. It's Jeff. And and and if you wouldn't have, and and then start to see you cry, and then I could go,

oh my gosh. That's then then you're also getting to the, the backed up or backed in a corner nine going at the same time. Yeah. Which

That's for another episode maybe. Right? So I I at least wanted to, I I wanted to kind of to go into that that and I I think it doesn't just apply to emotions Right. And the emotional literacy. I think in general, we we far too often we forget. Jeff, did you mean that when you said that? Mhmm. Jeff, when you said no Saturdays, does that mean every Saturday? Jeff, what if I said I could do this? Would that change anything? Right. Question. Question.

And as long as there's at least some level of Mhmm. Relationship Right. Jeff will say, well, no. No. No. I didn't mean that. I I I just meant this. Mhmm.

Or, yes, Eric. I it it can't be Saturdays. I just don't have the bandwidth on Saturdays.

Right.

But I think so often, Jeff, what do we do? We assume. We oh. Mhmm. Oh, I bet Jeff doesn't have Saturday available. I'm just gonna I'm gonna go ask my producer. He's probably got Saturdays open.

He just he just sits over there.

Right. Right. Yeah. He's doing nothing. Right? Hey. But you know what too, Jeff? And and I've seen this in coaching relationships. You know, they'll a client might make a, like, a series of, well, this happened, and then they did this. And then when we were in that situation, they said that, and then it made me feel like this.

And then I I'll ask them, did you ever did you ever query as to is that what they meant? Mhmm. And without fail, not every person. A lot of times I get, no, I I didn't. Didn't think of that. I didn't ask them. Well, it's not it's not condemnation. It's just add that to your repertoire. Add it another tool in your boxes.

You can ask you can ask. If you're if if you're wondering, are they crying because they're angry or hurt feelings, ask them. If you're if you're wondering if the body language is communicate just ask them. Mhmm. And you don't you're not responsible if they're not gonna be honest in their response.

Right. You're talking about actively listening to them.

And I think that's a good sell segue. Well, actually, you you wanna talk about optimics optimism first. Right?

Yes. Okay. Sorry. I'm out of line.

That's alright. You're not. You can do whatever you want, Jeff.

You you need to be very aware of being overly optimistic.

Oh, okay. I got that wrong. So yes.

Yeah. One one of the, competencies that we we use in our model VQ is optimism. You don't wanna turn into a cheerleader and say everything is going to be fantastic.

Does that move into toxic positivity?

Yeah. And I've used this example before. One of the your college football team is down 28 to nothing and there's two minutes left, and you got the cheerleaders cheering. Why?

Or maybe worse, at least in my mind, is when you're down 28 to nothing with two minutes left and there's somebody at that get together that says, I just know if we just if we just throw the ball and we and we get in, then we can kick a

We block them. Yep.

An onside kick. And then, you know, that'll give us thirty seconds. Hey. By the way, did you know Patrick Mahomes? He won a championship game by in thirteen seconds. We could do that. And you're kinda looking at them going, what are you talking about? So to your point

Be opt be trying to think of the right way to say it, but use use optimism, but in a way that is not giving false hope.

Yeah. And, you know, when I when you say that, Jeff, I think and I I've used this in in in in many situations, that we should acknowledge this is a deep hole. Mhmm. No doubt about it. I think that validates the person who's in that deep hole. Like, I get it. It's a deep hole. And then you can say, but, you know, here's some things that I think are going well.

Here's some things that I think we could do. Here's ways I can help. But I, yeah, I agree with you. This sucks. Mhmm. I mean, I think that's a blend. It's almost like blending it with realism.

Yep. A lot of people have a negative response to the word pragmatic, but I like that word because it's it's honest. Right. You know, being pragmatic does not mean that you think this, you know, it's all gonna turn out bad. You're just looking at the situation in a realistic way. It's how I look at pragmatism.

Yeah.

And so just make sure you're looking at whatever the situation is this way. I mean, they may never totally recover from something.

Yep. Yeah.

But you might you might be the person that are is going to help them cope rather than resolve.

Cope and navigate. Right?

Mhmm.

Yeah. Because I think in the end, we we we realize that as much as I think as human beings, we desire so much safety, security, and, predictability, you know, this this idea that I think it's healthy to when you face the reality that it's not going to be sunshine and rainbows. Right? It it is this this is something that you're gonna grapple with. But I'm here to support and to give care in whatever way I can as you are navigating all of the twists and turns that this implies.

And, yeah, know that no matter what, I'm not gonna think less of you.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's powerful. Powerful. So what about the, the listening thing?

We we did an episode in the past about active listening, but just make sure that you pay attention to that. I think one of the worst things when you're when you're work you know, talking with someone, when you're trying to be that caregiver, is to do something I'd like to call the me too isms. Oh, I I I know exactly how you feel. I went through that myself and Mhmm. You can share that later on, but you don't wanna make it like, oh, I'm better because I've got through this. Why haven't you gotten through it?

Sure. Yeah. Because that communication can that can be deadly, if you will.

But yeah. And then, you mentioned some of those before. Ask questions. Mhmm. Pay attention, body language. I think one of the highest compliments I think I've ever gotten from and I from anybody is you're a good listener. I think that's one of the the compliments I hold dear to my heart that somebody saw that I was actually paying attention to them.

Yeah. Yeah.

And you don't know how much that just that in itself is going to help the person.

Yes. No doubt. There is a I think there's a craving in just about everyone to be heard.

You mentioned the prison ministry. I think that's the biggest thing we do for the residents that we see in the prison is we listen to them.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, when you think about this idea of listening, I think it's also a it's probably a healthy defense against judgment. Mhmm. Because I don't think, you know, I I and and this is just recently. Right? And and judgment, yes, we we can leap to the conclusions about racism and, you know, you know, the moral thing,

you

know, and all of those religious, connections. But I think it also relates to, the judgment that we pass on people whom we have not listened to enough to get the data to make a conclusion as to what or who

Mhmm.

Etcetera. Right? So I had, I had interacted with this guy on a very limited basis. I I had more interactions with with his wife than him. Mhmm. But I would see him, you know, in his wife's company, and it would be to say things. He was always very kind, and, I knew what work he did. And I I really kinda had I didn't dismiss him, but I kinda thought, oh, he's just that. Mhmm.

And then two weeks ago, he's talking about something that left me going, wow. I didn't know that about that, and I didn't understand. He, I mean, he has a wealth of knowledge Mhmm. That I didn't even know. Now you could say, but, Eric, you know, you haven't done this with him and you haven't done that. You shouldn't. Well, Jeff, then maybe I should reserve my determination of who he is if I don't have enough data.

You know how helpful that would be for our world right now that

Well, and that's that's that's a difficult one for people to stomach, especially if you are a type of person who is judgmental. And and keeping in mind, everyone, judgment does not just rest in the laps of religious people.

Mhmm.

Judgment is everywhere. It's rampant. Right? And when I think about that, I go, you know, and I'm I'm I'm talking about, you know, from the perspective of what I'm working on, is to less and less make a mental judgment about someone whom I have either limited knowledge of or what's even worse, and we see this all the time, we make judgments and we've never met the person in our life.

Have you ever made a judgment of the person in the car next to you?

Right?

Yeah.

Okay.

You've got you've got that story already.

Right. And I I've used this in in other settings. I don't think I've ever mentioned it on the podcast. And this was around election time here in The United States. And I I I tend to love hearing from both sides of the equation. Right? Persons on both sides, you know, they're railing about their opponent. I mean, they're this, they're that, they're this, they're that, they're thirst, and this and that. And I on both of them, I Jeff, I I just went, so tell me, how long have you known Joe Biden? Silence.

Well, I was just wondering because you you know, it would seem to me you really gotta know them in order to really kind of make a judgment. Right? Yeah. I mean, it's kind of important. Uh-huh. And I did the same. So how many interactions have you had with Donald Trump? So the bigger point is those that run inside of our world. Let's not be so quick. And I think when we do that, it sets us up to be that better listener.

It sets us up to go, oh, I'm meeting with Jeff again. Yeah. I'm I'm being his caregiver, but he's gonna complain about his wife. He's gonna complain about his work, and then, you know, and then he's gonna and then he'll probably ask me, do I have any advice? And, you know, we'll probably be there for an hour and a half. I'd like it to be an hour because I really have other things I need to get done today. Judgment. Judgment. Judgment.

Judgment. And we can get away with that one. Right?

Mhmm.

We we can we can easily rationalize that one away. Mhmm. But the reality is, if I need to leave early from our time together Mhmm. I can just say, hey, Jeff. I've only got an hour today. I just wanna let you know that so that, you know, like, when we get to 02:00 or whatever and I say, hey. I gotta go, you you'll know.

And you know what? It's also okay to go, Eric, I know we had set this time together to to talk about what what we wanted what you wanted to talk about. I am not in the frame of mind to be able to do that today. I'm I'm sorry, but, you know, maybe we just wanna have a cup of coffee and chat, but I am you know, I've had some things happen today that put me be honest about this.

Yeah. And and the responsibility is is a shared one. And what I mean by that is is that if it happens that on that particular day, whatever, that that is the case Mhmm. In the relationship, you have the responsibility to tell me that it's not in you today Mhmm. And it's my responsibility to extend grace to you that, well, yeah, Jeff. I get it. I understand that. Now, if someone could say, but what if Jeff does that, like, on a regular basis? Well, then it's probably time for another conversation.

Mhmm. Like, we were talking in the beginning. Are is this really what I can really give to this person? Right. Can I really be a caregiver? Mhmm. Should I maybe in in the maybe I need to exit versus just staying in that rinse and repeat mode where just frustration builds and builds and builds.

I don't wanna be seen as a quitter.

On and on and on and on. I don't wanna appear like I am, this. Mhmm. It it's it's it's a fascinating fascinating circle. What else? Anything else today about that?

The the one thing I I just wanna reiterate, we were kinda talking about at the end. Don't be afraid to say, okay. This is beyond what I can I can do? You need to see a professional, and don't be afraid to say that. And, you know, don't make sure you say it in a way that's not gonna make the other person feel bad because they're so messed up that they have to go see a professional. That's not what no. You you need to be honest and say, this is beyond what I can help with. This is this is beyond my boundary. We're getting into things that I don't know about, that I cannot answer you.

Mhmm.

Do not be afraid to say that. And but once again, make sure you say, I'll still walk with you. You and you can share whatever you want from, you know, if, you know, if you wanna share what you're talking about with the the professional, that's fine. I'm not expecting it, but just say, I am going to continue to walk with you. I'm still going to give you care.

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a powerful note. And I think it also is a call for us to remind the audience and maybe ourselves, Jeff Mhmm. That the things that we have and are experiencing in our lives are shared by many.

Mhmm.

So our mischaracterization, if not butchering characterization of therapy like we've done in The United States.

Mhmm.

And I'm optimistic that it seems like we're turning that corner a bit.

Mhmm.

But we did a lousy job because we made people feel like there's something deeply wrong with you. You're flawed.

You're one step away from getting put in an institution if you see a professional.

Right. Or to to the idea, like, well, the stigma thing. Right? Okay. Like, somebody's putting a red letter on your forehead or something. I I think we have we should all remember that, you know, your struggles may have a different hue to them, but there's still the struggles in every human being. And by the way, if you have someone that says they're not, they're lying to

you. Exactly.

Everyone, we appreciate you tuning in today. Yes, ma'am. And we look forward to the next time that we're together. Take care.