Unlocking the Subconscious with EMDR: "It's not just eye movement that we now know allows us to get into that subconscious in that way. It's any bilateral stimulation, both sides of the body." - Anita Ritchey

I sit down with returning guest Anita Ritchey, MA, LPCC, for a powerful conversation about how our core beliefs shape our emotional health and daily lives. Anita shares her expertise on how core beliefs are formed—starting from infancy and early childhood through experiences, observations, and what we’re taught. We explore how these often subconscious beliefs impact behavior, relationships, and self-worth well into adulthood.

We talk about the importance of examining and challenging longstanding beliefs, especially when they no longer serve us. Anita explains how therapy, including approaches like EMDR, can help us uncover, process, and even rewire these deep-seated patterns—offering hope and practical insight for anyone looking to grow, heal, and understand themselves better.

Whether you’re just starting to think about your own core beliefs or you’re well along that journey, this episode is full of relatable stories, clinical wisdom, and a reminder of the power of self-awareness. If you’re curious about why you react the way you do—or if you’ve ever wondered where certain feelings come from—this conversation will resonate.

Moments

00:00 Early Childhood Memory Formation

04:15 "Perceived Beliefs About Dog Danger"

07:47 Childhood Observations Shape Beliefs

13:01 Challenging Core Beliefs

14:58 Core Beliefs in Relationships

18:33 Therapy: Growth and Self-Discovery

22:27 Rewiring the Brain Takes Effort

26:00 EMDR and Subconscious Clarity

27:48 "EMDR: Enhanced REM for Stress Processing"

32:24 Positive EMDR Outcomes Discussed

34:15 Rising Demand for EMDR Therapy

37:42 Exploring EMDR for Emotional Distress

43:20 Unresolved Childhood Trauma's Adult Impact

44:50 Emotional Intelligence and Retirement Concerns

49:28 Pros and Cons of AI Therapy

51:50 "Music's Emotional Impact Explored"

Here are 3 key takeaways from our conversation:

• Core beliefs start young and run deep. Most of our core beliefs are formed in childhood—often before the age of 7—through what we’re taught, what we observe, and how we interpret our experiences. These beliefs get “written into” our subconscious and influence adult relationships, work, and self-worth.
• Awareness leads to growth. Re-examining those early beliefs isn’t just about fixing problems; it’s about ongoing self-discovery. Whether things are going “fine” or you’re feeling stuck, proactively reflecting on core beliefs (with a counselor or through journaling) helps you identify outdated narratives and sparks personal growth.
• There are effective tools for change. Techniques like EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) can help address distress from past traumas and beliefs that hold us back. Anita shared how EMDR facilitates healing by unlocking and reprocessing those deeply stored memories—something an AI chatbot just can’t replicate.

In each episode, Jeff and Eric will talk about what emotional intelligence, or understanding your emotions, can do for you in your daily and work life. For more information, contact Eric or Jeff at info@spiritofeq.com, or go to their website, Spirit of EQ.

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SEQ Development Report

The SEQ Development Report is an innovative tool that combines emotional intelligence with one's spiritual life, distinct from religious contexts. The report helps individuals understand their connections with themselves, others, and their surroundings. It aims to identify areas in their lives that may need improvement and highlight their strengths, ultimately facilitating better navigation through life. To obtain the report, individuals need to contact Spirit of EQ via email at info@spiritofeq.com and complete an online assessment that takes about 15 to 20 minutes. After the assessment, a debrief session is required to review the comprehensive information provided in the report. Spirit of EQ also offers further coaching to support individuals in their personal development journey.

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Anita, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Eric. So good to be back.

That was probably. Was that three years ago? Maybe two or three.

More than two. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Right.

Somewhere in that neighborhood. Well, I will tell you, and we talked a little bit of this offline. The episode that you did with us was so well received. And as I mentioned to you, it wasn't because we had done some special marketing campaign with the episode, but I had so many people that reached out to me to say, man, that episode was really good, especially the part on core beliefs. So that kind of was my prompter about wanting to get you back on, because since then, I mean, there have been things that I've observed and my curiosity is just really kind of been on hyper mode. I guess, if I can say it that way, to understand more about it, because it does impact so much of behavior. I. I believe.

And, and. But in that spirit, before I start waxing too nostalgic, could you maybe take our audience through, okay, what are core beliefs? How they're developed?

Right.

Maybe even when. And then I'm going to save to the end. What is the implication for us as adults? Meaning what should we be doing with our core beliefs as we're into adulthood? So can you start with what are they? You know, when are they developed, how are they developed and all that?

Sure, yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much again for having me. It's a joy. I am passionate about core beliefs because I know personally, like, it's this unwritten rule that we live our lives by. So when you think about the iceberg, like, it's in our subconscious, our core beliefs are held subconsciously, but they're acted out in our conscious world. So it starts in infancy. So we've heard about attachment styles, attachment, you know, theory. So when a baby is born, it has implicit memories.

So that means that imprints are being made into the body and into the mind, but not in a conscious way. So the baby even knows if it cries, like, its needs are going to get met. And so a belief is being developed that I'm going to cry and my needs are going to get met, or I'm going to cry and I'm going to be neglected. So it's not conscious words like that, but that certainly is being developed. And then around the age of two, explicit memories are being developed. So imprints up until about age 2, and then real memories in which a baby or a toddler, I guess, at this point can remember themselves in a scenario, which is why you get out that ice cream. That child knows that they like that ice cream because they remember having it. And so while they can remember themselves, they still don't quite know how to process everything that's happening to them.

And so beliefs are being developed in their subconscious, and beliefs are developed in three ways. So they're being taught, they're being observed, or they're being perceived. And the perceived ones are based on how we receive a message or from an experience itself. Myself. So I'll go.

Can I. Can I interrupt you on that one? Just. And this is the selfish host in me. So if I'm 7, 8 years old and there's a German shepherd that's like running toward me and it's growling, barking, and I experience tremendous. I'm terrified.

Right.

And. And maybe I don't get bitten. Maybe the dog, the owner calls the dog and it turns around, but I'm still feeling that terror. Is that kind of a pathway because it's an experience?

Yes, that would be a perceived experience. And so a core belief could develop in that situation that all dogs are dangerous or have the potential to be dangerous. Absolutely. Yeah. And so if. If you were being taught that all dogs are dangerous, you would actually hear words like, dogs are dangerous, stay away from dogs. Right. Which is different than we have to be cautious around dogs because some dogs can be dangerous.

So we're going to take these measures.

So within that. And I. And I know I'm jumping in, but again, being a selfish host. So I have a memory of a German shepherd.

Right.

And it did scare me. And I don't remember exactly what age I was in, but I do remember my mom telling me, stay away from that house because he's got multiple dogs. Those German shepherds are dangerous. I don't want you to get bitten.

Right.

And I used to like, oh, to see a German shepherd, I mean. I mean, even going further out in time, it was. Oh, my gosh, it's. They're vicious, terrifying. And I just. I wondered. That's when you were mentioning that, you know, it was the blend of the first is the experience, you know, and then having my mom tell me to stay away because those are dangerous dogs.

Yeah, yeah. Now, your mom wasn't doing anything wrong, you know, she was protecting you. But maybe based on that, you know, that moment where she told you that and your experience, all you knew was that all German shepherds have the capacity at least to be dangerous. And so you probably experience some tension in your body for a very long time, if not still, you Know when.

You see German shepherds, well, you know, it's interesting. Maybe that shows I've made some progress in this walk of life. But I now look at German shepherds as one of the most beautiful, majestic dogs. So there is hope for me.

There is, there is. Which means somewhere along the way, you actually looked at that core belief or that belief system, right, from those experiences, and you challenge them as being a hundred percent true at all times. Right? Because, you know, it's not that all German shepherds at all times are dangerous, and somewhere along the line, you, you realize that.

Okay, so I'm going to be the unselfish host now and let you get back to where you were going.

Yeah, no worries. So, you know, we are taught things, and core beliefs can be very good for us as well. We're all taught be respectful, right? Be respectful, you know, citizens, or, you know, get a good education, go to college. Like so all of our belief systems in adulthood have, have come from somewhere, and they're not all bad. So there are many core beliefs that, that we have that are really good for us and then some that have developed that are not so good or healthy or, you know, based on experiences. So we're taught things like go to college, respect people. We might also be taught things such as all dogs are bad, all men are bad, all women, you know, want your money. Like just these different, you know, scenarios.

And then the observed core beliefs would be what you see around you and you take it in as something to be true. So, for example, let's say a child's growing up in a home and dad comes home sometimes drunk and angry. This child is observing that maybe alcohol makes people mean. Or they're observing that mom needs to be subservient for, you know, parents to get along. Or they're observing that affection means love. Right? And that's not a bad observation. So if somebody's growing up in loving, in a loving home and there is affection, like affection is one way to show love, right? So that's enough. Nobody, nobody leans down to a child and says, now I'm going to hug you because I want you to know, know that I love you.

No, they just give the hug. The child knows that that feels good. Now, that would also go along with a perceived one. But when they see affection between others that they're taking in as a form of showing love. And then the, the perceived ones would be the experiences or the messages based on an experience. So let's say somebody is in high school, they, they're around an interaction. Right. Maybe there's a fight that breaks out and, and it feels uncomfortable, they feel intimidated, but it's not happening to them.

But now they believe something about themselves maybe being in harm's way because of this fight and that could be carried on then every time that they're around certain type of people. So core beliefs, our body reacts. Right. Based on our core beliefs and experiences. And so especially if it's traumatic.

So. And then certainly I want to give you an opportunity to elaborate, but you know, I think about it by what you're saying are most core beliefs develop pre adulthood, if you will.

Yes, yes, most. Most certainly are. And so a lot of them through developmental years right up to age 7, a lot of our core beliefs are developed. And then, you know, middle school, high school, there certainly can be some modification of those core beliefs. So let's say, let's say a child grew up in a very loving, stable home. They have core beliefs that their needs matter, that family is there for them, that they deserve to feel love and loved and supported. But then they get into a romantic relationship.

Right.

In high school or twenties even that kind of is abusive, but it's something that kind of, it was good at the beginning and so they trusted it because they've trusted people in their lives. And then it kind of went south or turned slowly in a negative way. And so that long term impact can change a core belief to now like their needs don't matter, they're not truly lovable or likable in some way. And one big event can also shift a core belief.

Got it, got it. So in the example you gave, and again, maybe I should be careful here because I know you can't go into the actual scenario and story that you described, but in the example of, they experience romantic love and it turns, go south, goes sideways and they begin to believe that maybe they're not lovable, but they still have evidences of the, of the love, probably even still ongoing with family.

Right.

So is it, is it sort of the clash or the, the civil war type thing of themselves or.

Yeah, and that, that's very interesting because their, their security in their family dynamic is still there, but now in the romance piece, it's not there. And so these would be kids that grew up in a loving, stable home that know that their parents love and care for them, but they choose awful partners for them.

Sure, yeah, I get it. So it ultimately, you know, it's a tale of two cities in a way.

Right?

Yeah.

Wow. Wow.

So within that, you know, I Think about my own personal core beliefs. And, and, and I didn't fully understand that they were core beliefs.

Probably.

I mean, I was well, well, well into adulthood. I mean, probably into where I didn't realize that maybe I should check those core beliefs to make sure that they were like, still valid or still relevant.

Right.

You mentioned the scenario with the German shepherds and yeah, I did it there, but there were some deeper ones that I just, I just went along with it. And, and I guess part of me thought, well, I mean, this is just how the world works. This is just how things are. And then I, you know, had the feeling of, man, I wish somebody would have grabbed me at 18 and said, now remember, it's time to check those core beliefs because they may not apply anymore. Never happened for me. No, but I have, I have this, you know, obviously this, our show is, my hope is that whether, you know, a person is 40 or maybe there's a 20 year old out there that's listening to the podcast that might start today to take the path of, well, let me check them. Let me, let me make sure that they still are relevant. Let's talk a little bit about that.

So I get it, you know, when we think about a counselor, psychiatrist, psychologist, whatever, we think, oh, I'm going to go because I'm having an issue or I'm having issues, I kind of liken it also that, well, shouldn't we be proactive and go even if maybe things are going okay? So do you think it is a good idea to maybe go to see a clinician about core beliefs to see if they're still relevant if you need it, or can it go both ways? What are your thoughts about that?

Yeah, I think they're always going to show up in some way. So, you know, we, because they're in our subconscious, but they're acted out in our conscious state, they're going to show up in relationships or in life scenarios. And you, you know, you kind of gave two different examples that are, are both very impactful. So the idea of like the German shepherd. Oh, dogs are, are unsafe. Right. Or at least German shepherds are dangerous. So that's something that's external from yourself.

Yep.

But it's a belief about something out in the world. And then a lot of our core beliefs have to do with our worth. Right. Am I good enough? Am I lovable? Am I worthy? You know, am I, do I deserve good things? Do I deserve respect? And so all of these things, if those aren't solid and secure, those certainly are going to show up in relationships that are going to affect the dynamic there and the health of the relationship. So to answer your question, yes, we should explore it, because regardless, unless somebody's very, very secure, we, you know, I don't know if you've heard about attachment styles, but attachment styles have to do with our attachment in childhood to caregivers, but also attachment romantically. And so it. The secure people are very. It's a small minority in the world that are.

That are very secure within themselves. And so most of the time.

Our.

Core beliefs are negative. Our difficult core beliefs are going to show up in one way or another. And it certainly is worth exploring.

So, Anita, within that, just by way of maybe example, analogy, you know, I can think about some of my relationships in my past where, you know, you felt like you would get the car started and then five seconds later it would just go dark, and then you try to start it again, and then you take it to get looked at, and they can't seem to figure out the problem. Well, you know, there's a problem, but you can't put your finger on it.

Yeah.

And. And I, I can think about my own life. I don't. I don't. I think I was curious enough to go, hey, wait a minute. There's something happening deeper here than just that there's this tension or there's this argument or there that all relationships, I know, experience. But is it the argument or is it what's behind the argument?

Right.

You know what I mean?

It's never about the dishes. Right. It's always about the, you know, the dynamics and the feelings underneath.

So to that point, I mean, you know, again, I'm. I don't want to make assumptions for all of our audience and assuming that they would just plow through, you know, we're just not getting along right now, or, you know, my boss and I, you know, it's. It's work. So I need to get over it. I mean, we figure out these ways to, quote, survive, so they may be less open to, hey, you know, you should take a deeper look at this. There may be something beneath the surface that's driving this. And I know, Anita, you're not going to give me. Here's the plan to get somebody to raise their hand and ask for help.

I.

Because every human being.

Right.

But I mean, from a recommendation standpoint, and maybe I'm. This is rhetorical. I'm going to imagine you'd recommend. If you're hitting a wall, why don't you ask for help?

Absolutely. Yeah. I. And you know, a lot of times people do think, like, this stigma of mental health. Well, thankfully, it's. It's declining, the stigma is declining, and more people are being open. But there are still some people who think, like, this is the last ditch effort, right? We're not going to marriage counseling unless we're on the verge of divorce or I don't need therapy because, like, I don't see myself as that broken. Like, I don't need to be in the psych ward.

But actually, like, therapy is just good for growth and to evaluate, like, what am I? What's underneath the surface here. And a lot of it has to do with past experiences. So it's certainly worth investigating, evaluating, how can I grow and learn from this, but also, how do I understand myself? Many people don't have the awareness to understand themselves. And, you know, I'm a therapist who's been in therapy because, like, it's worth exploring and getting better, healing wounds, but also, like, learning who you are. And there's just things you learn about yourself that you're not exactly happy with. Like, oh, like, I don't want to hear that, or I. I don't like that about myself. But how can we take that and grow and become better?

Wow, you make such a great point there. And I've used this example in multiple settings. It's like, I want to get to know Eric more and more every day because I spent so much of my life being driven by extrinsic forces that, I mean, in many ways I was always telling Eric, go sit down. Just go sit down. I've got to do this. No, you need to just be quiet. I've got to do that. And I think when I started understanding that, I mean, it's a gift from God to get to know the person that he created.

Right?

I mean, and I'm embarrassed in a little, in a small way, not from a regret and loathing. I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't spend enough time getting to know Eric.

Right.

So that maybe I could discover those core beliefs and more with more clarity.

Right.

Because where I was going to go, Anita, too, is that it's like, almost, okay, what lies have you been believing about yourself? And where do they come from? So, yeah, can we talk a little bit about that? Is. Is the core belief always a lie, or is it a. Could it be that? And else.

Well, there's always an element of truth, which is why we pretty much hold to it with our whole being. Right. We marry our core beliefs and like, but we don't believe in divorce.

Yeah.

And what we do, we have this core belief that we might not even identify, but we live it out in a way that says this is 100% true all the time. And it's only because there was an element of truth to it at some point. So the child who grew up to believe that they're not good enough or they're not worthy, they probably were not loved well. Or they had an experience that made them feel less than or insecure. Right. Or they were belittled. And so that element of truth then expands into this big, general 100% truth, which is inaccurate.

Right.

And I know for me, and I, and I, obviously you're. You're the clinician, so I don't want to sort of cross. Try to cross into that world. I know for me, with my core beliefs, I kind of felt like I had developed neural pathways to support that core belief. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Well, Right. And so when we go down that route.

Right.

Like, as soon as that is instilled, whether it's one experience or a pattern, we go down that route. And that's the. That's why I say, like, we marry this and hold on for a dear life. Like, we take that path over and over and over as if it's the only way that there is.

Yeah.

And so you hit on something about rewiring the brain, which is very possible. And it takes work and effort. And I, I use the example of, you know, a teenager learning to drive a car is going to do it differently than the person with 10 or 20 years of experience. But the first thing they have to do is go get a manual and learn some of the rules of the road. Right, Right. And then they're, you know, maybe take the online task to make sure they know the rules. And then they're practicing with an experienced driver who's monitoring what they're doing. But they might feel anxious and they might be gr.

Gripping that steering wheel with dear life. I mean, some of them might be careless. Right, Right. The one who's really anxious and having, like, to be hyper vigilant about remembering, you know, to. To touch the brake on time and remembering to stop at, you know, all the, all the, the stoplight and the red light and the stop sign and yield, like, all of these different nuances, it's really uncomfortable. Somebody pulls out in front of them, that's really, really uncomfortable. And so. But they have to pay attention to the GPS or the instructor or the parent in the car.

They have to pay attention to the road sign. They're not going to know how to drive from here to, you know, their school or another school. Right. When they're, they're learning. And so. But once they get used to it and then they don't need the GPS anymore. That's the way of rewiring our brain is we have to pay attention to what it is, focus on the change, be very, very attentive and in tune to ourselves. What we're believing.

Let's challenge the belief. Let's embrace the opposite of the belief, which is actually true.

Yeah.

And then take that new route over and over and over until that is now the new norm.

And obviously that's where having a support system a la, having a counselor, you know, a therapist and having maybe a pastor and maybe having, you know, a strong person, I mean not a strong person per se, but a strong relationship with a family member who can come alongside of you as you are working through the process with all those nuances. So there is, there's something that we talked about offline that I wanted to bring up and maybe you can tell me how it connects, but, and I may be getting this wrong. Is it emdfr?

Did I get it right?

Emdr.

Emdr, thank you. So can you talk a little bit about that as it relates to core beliefs?

Yeah. So that is a therapy that is originally based for trauma work. So it stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. And when I go over this method with a client, a lot of them have heard of it because it is becoming more and more popular. It's very evidence based. There's been tons of research on it. It's very effective. But I show the brain and explain how trauma hangs out in the limbic system, which is where our core beliefs are.

Because a core belief develops from trauma. But EMDR allows us access into the subconscious while we're awake. And I kind of explain about how when we go into REM sleep, REM stands for rapid eye movement. Our eyes are moving back and forth while we're in REM sleep. And that engages the brain in a way that gets into the subconscious and processes the stress of the day. Which is why people say, you know, when you're, you know, all muddled and you can't figure something out, you're having to make a decision. They'll say, sleep on it. You'll have more clarity tomorrow.

Ah, yes, the classics. I'm going to sleep on it. Yeah, be.

And it's true. Because when the stress is small enough. REM sleep gets in there and processes it and removes the stressful pieces and just gives clarity. You wake up feeling refreshed. Your thoughts are more clear because your brain did a lot of work while you were asleep. And so EMDR is like, Anita, sorry.

I'm so sorry. The selfish host is reappearing. Oh, my gosh. What you just said, just. I mean, I, you know, when you hear a lot of the, the neuroscientists will talk about the importance of getting REM and the importance of sleep. And, and, and I always, I, I knew at a, at a base level that, yeah, your brain's doing a lot of work while you're asleep.

Right.

And most of it for me was thinking of the, you know, cleaning out the toxins and getting things, but I had no idea about what that REM process is like.

Yeah.

So now.

And so I point out that when the stress is too big or trauma, REM tries really hard to get it processed, but it's just too much. Which is why we wake up with the thing on our mind in the middle of the night. It was trying to work on it, which is also why we have nightmares, because we dream when we're in REM sleep and nightmares. Was the brain trying to work it out as well, but it just couldn't get the job done. So emdr, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, it's like REM on steroids while you're awake. Wow. So it is a way to finish processing the stressful event or events or pattern in life that developed core beliefs and visceral body reactions to something. Like you were afraid of German shepherds for a while.

Right. You had a visceral response. So EMDR is a way to kind of like get into that, the subconscious where it's the limbic system where it's stored and finish processing it so that it can then be moved to long term memory where it actually goes and it's way less activating.

Wow.

Boy, you know, it's, it's. This is the part where being a host is really hard because I just want to say, Anita, tell me more about this.

Yeah, it's amazing. But what we know now, like EMDR was first created in 1983 for big trauma were veterans coming home with PTSD. What we know now is that it's very effective for anything that is distressing. So I've used it for somebody who's having a job interview come up and they're really nervous about it. So Anything that creates some tension. But the. The. There's so many, and I can't get into all of it.

But there's a lot of fascination because it is getting into the subconscious. While you're awake, awareness comes up, and so somebody might be like, oh, that's why I have felt this way. That's why, you know, I've been nervous about this or anxious about that, because forward about these things that are stored in our subconscious, but also truth comes forward in empowerment and confidence and freedom and healing. And so it's. It's really, really fascinating. It is bizarre. One more thing I'll just say about EMDR is that it's not just eye movement that we now know allows us to get into that subconscious in that way. It's any bilateral stimulation, both sides of the body.

Let's stimulate both sides of the body alternating, so left and right side of the body.

Mm.

So when I see people virtually who doing, I just have them tap on themselves. People can use audio sounds. You know, we use bilateral stimulation all the time when we're walking, when you're lifting weights. Right. When you're listening to music and it's in both speakers, but being going different, you know, rhythms and stuff. But the key is to do it in an environment that is focusing on the distress and the trauma, surrendering to the process, which is how, you know, things come up, memories come up, and we can work through core beliefs and distress. And. Yeah, it's a lot.

A lot of good stuff that I get really excited.

It sounds to me. Wow. It sounds to me like that's a very powerful tool very, very much for you and helping people to kind of make or get to a breakthrough.

Right?

Yeah. And I've been a client of it, so, you know, it's been the only thing that has helped me with ptsd, because when our body has visceral reactions to something, it. You know, cognitive behavioral therapy can be successful in many ways, but we can't talk ourselves out of. Of this visceral reaction that is coming from trauma and a core belief that's instilled because of the trauma. All right, so EMDR gets in there and can work through.

Wow.

That's incredible. We will also have in our show notes some reference material for our audience to be able to, if they want to look deeper into it. And obviously, they'll have your information if they want to reach out to you directly. So maybe that's a good pivot to what you're seeing in your practice. I know it's. It's easy for me to go to. What are the problems that people are experiencing? And I do want to touch on that, but maybe because the EMDR thing, it sounds to me like that, that that's some good news. That's some positive things that have happened with your clients.

So let's start there. So what are some breakthroughs? What are some things that have been working well with the people that you've been helping?

Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I heard about EMDR all of my career, but it is an expensive training. I, you know, didn't prioritize, you know, having money for that. And I got trained in it two and a half years ago and, you know, went through it myself and like, just used it day one. Have used it ever since then. And it is life changing. And so there's any number of distress that somebody might have that EMDR can alleviate. You know, whether it's a big trauma or a little stress or just some anxiety. Like, it's good for anxiety.

It's good. Are, you know, talking about core beliefs. We, we all think something about something, right? So even a client who is experiencing clinical depression, like, we can't heal that, but can we work on the belief that life is meaningless?

Right.

Okay. And so, yeah, I mean, just this week, the last couple of weeks, I had a new client who's been working, who came to me for emdr. And that's happening. More and more people are hearing about it. They're like, requesting emdr and, you know, just like the, the aha. Moments that come up because we don't know what's all stored away in our subconscious or in our body. And so one thing that's really fascinating is when somebody's working on a distressing event or idea, we surrendering to the process means we have to connect with the distress. There has to be some activation emotionally to this thing in order for the brain to get activated into the subconscious.

And so let's say somebody. I'm just going to make something up. Let's say somebody.

Oh, Anita, Anita, I have one for you in real life. And this just happened to me over the weekend. So my, my family and our audience knows somewhat about my, my history. I have a family background that has. It's riddled with alcohol and drug abuse. I mean, generational stuff.

Right.

And I, I mean, I experienced a lot of trauma as a result of that because it was, it was very much an active part of my growing up. So my thoughts and my views around alcohol and especially bars are, shall we say, I don't want to say I avoid them, but I don't like them.

Right.

And please. And for our audience as well, I'm not anti alcohol. My experiences with alcohol were abuse. So the reference point is not, oh, sure, I'll have a glass of red wine with my meal tonight, and then that's it. It was abuse of alcohol. So my son wanted me to pick him up at a bar.

Right.

That's innocent enough. I know how to drive. I know how to park. I know how to get on my phone and say, I'm here, or text that I'm here. I'm parked over there. But, Anita, it was as if I saw ghost.

You had a visceral reaction, right? Yeah.

So from that perspective, I. It wasn't like I. I didn't. I didn't freeze. It wasn't like, as I got close to the bar that I just stopped in the middle of the road and I can't do it. But it was almost like I was watching a movie. And it was a movie from 30 years ago.

Right.

Because of the connection point. So I think of that which you described as something that connects and, I don't know, maybe that story doesn't. But please, if you can use that and maybe build off of what you were talking about.

Yeah. So that's a perfect example of how your internal self had a response just based on your experience. And so EMDR works. Let's say you came into my office to be seen and you're like, when I think about picking my son up from the bar and he's not even doing anything wrong, but I have this reaction and I feel distress. Now, it could be a distress level of 2 or 3 and be very manageable, but there's still a reaction. Or maybe it's a six or seven. Like, it doesn't really matter how extensive. If it's something that bothers you and there is that distressing reaction, we would use that to get into, like, the EMDR process.

And I mentioned bilateral stimulation. In my office, I have people hold what's called tappers. So it's just something they hold. I turn it on, it vibrates back and forth. So you would just kind of let yourself connect with the distress of these thoughts. And, you know, if you could identify the belief that you have when you think about, oh, I have to pick up my son, or alcohol is bad alcohol. Bad things happen when people drink. Whatever the belief is, we would identify that you would connect with that belief.

You would connect with the distress that you feel. What emotions are present. Where is this in your body. And let yourself surrender to that momentarily. And we both would sit quietly. And as you let yourself go into that distress for about 60 seconds, I turn it off and tell you to take a deep breath, ask you what you're noticing, and you only tell me as little or as much as you want about whatever is going on in your thoughts, your emotions or your body. As long as that's manageable, we pick it up again. Now go back where you left off.

Again, I turn it on. The bilateral stimulation is happening. What's likely to happen within two or three sets of those 60 seconds because we want to use a whole session right. Of, of doing 60 seconds on check in. 60 seconds, check in. What's likely to happen is your brain. Once you can like let yourself surrender to that, your brain will make connections. You hit it a connection to your childhood and then images of your childhood and how felt at that time would you would have visceral reactions with those memories that need to get processed.

And, and so as you know, as you get into emdr, like the distress, like it builds a little bit because now you're opening that door to the subconscious and these, you know, experiences and then as it then makes connections to many memories. Many memories could come up in a very short period of time. And that can feel intense, which is why we do the check ins. I need to keep you in your window of tolerance.

Right, sure. You don't want to go too far. Sure.

Right, right. So as long as it feels manageable to you, we just stay with it. If it doesn't, we take a break, deep breaths, or even stop for the day, whatever. End it with something that's relaxing and calming. But the brain will make many connections to many memories that still need to get processed and healed. And when you heal that, then your visceral reaction to picking up your son from the bar will either go away completely or be very, very minimal.

Right.

Because it's almost like, you know, this is maybe a poor analogy. It's sort of like you've got an area of your house in a room where there, there are these cobwebs and, and spiderwebs in a corner and you've, you know, they're there, you've seen them and experienced whatever may be associated. But you never went and said, you know what, I need to, I need to get the vacuum and get those cobwebs out and I need to clear off that baseboard. And maybe I'm oversimplifying and I know there's More nuance.

Yeah. Well, I would say people who have done a lot of work, it probably is cobwebs now that just need to. That. That's funny. You use that a client just today and I talked about, oh, there's just some residual cobwebs left. Right. For other people, it would be like this big monster that's covered with a sheet and they, they're scared to open the door. Right? They.

They never went in to deal with the big thing. But when you've done a lot of work, it can just be cobwebs or depending on how big or small you know, the event. Is this a pattern? Is this a one time thing? How bad was it?

And that's a great way of describing that, Anita, because it's got a lot of nuance to it, depending on the.

Person and the experience.

So if we can, and I would imagine, at least in my head, because the words being used a lot these days, trauma is when you think about your client base and what you're seeing in your practice or most people coming to you for things like trauma or are there multiple things, what would you use?

I mean, because I am a trauma therapist, a lot of people are seeking me out for trauma, but sometimes people are seeking me out for other things like anxiety or work stress or relationship issues or say infidelity, recovery, divorce, grief. But I always, you know, in their assessment, ask how their childhood was, and more often than not, whatever they're experiencing now that feels so heavy, they also experience a. How do you say it? Like an element of something. Even if it looks different, the element is similar. Like maybe not being loved well or being, you know, loss is too hard or scary. And so, yeah, but there certainly depression, anxiety are two big ones. But what I see more and more often are people our age, like 40s, 50s, 60s, that just can't do it anymore. They're the people who used to just push through, be fine, carry on, but their body's breaking down.

Like they're getting like physical symptoms of things. They're emotionally not as resilient. And so they're wondering, like, what's wrong with me? Why can't I just push through it anymore?

Wow, Anita. You know, you know, and in the work that we do, which, you know, I consider it to be sort of on that, we're like the Marines, right? We go in early before things get really, you know, and try to capture the issue early, not from a clinical perspective, but obviously an emotional intelligence, you know, being better able to manage that process of when emotions come and how I respond or reverse react. But I've got to thinking about it and this is one of the great, I think one of the great tragedies in the United States and probably in the western world is that you'll have people that will push through for decades thinking, thinking that there won't be a heavy price to pay for that. And I get it. And I, I mean I hear it. I, I've thankfully, oh, thankfully, I now understand the voices and where they come from, but I hear it. Well, what are you going to do about retirement? Are you going to have enough? Are you going to, how, how are you going to manage that? How are you going to do this? And boy, I, oh, I'd be, you know, and I'm like, wait a minute. So what you're telling me is.

And I bought it back in my corporate career, you know, prior to entrepreneurism, I did. I thought, well, I've got to do this because this is the way it's supposed to be. This is the process. And then, you know, as you get further down the road, I call it the godly wisdom of Wait a minute. So I'm going to sacrifice my mind, my body, my soul for money. And again, I'm not anti money, anti retirement, anti savings and investment. But wait a minute, you're meaning that's the trade I'm going to make. That's craziness.

Yeah, right, right.

However, I also know to your point, there are people who did buy that deal, they took that trade and now they have run sort of, they're kind of at the end of the rope. So as tragic as that is, in my mind, obviously I can't fix that. I mean, and what I'm about to ask you is, I don't think you can fix it. What are some of the things that you sort of offer up to them as tools to help them if they maybe are at that point?

Yeah, I mean it always catches up. Right. In one way or another. So we talk a lot about self care, like, and learning yourself. First of all, like what do I want and need? And it's not in a selfish way. It's like, let's pay attention, like, can I matter potentially as much as the people around me? Because a lot of people are people pleasers. Right. You just put in, you know, all the sacrifice for others.

And so it's, let's, let's sit for a moment with yourself and a lot of people can't. And so it's a matter of let's learn some Deep relaxation. Guided relaxation. Like, and usually it has to be guided because they can't just sit and be with themselves. You know, that feels unproductive. So it's a matter of, let's learn to sit down. Let's guide you some relaxation. Let's pay attention to your body.

Yep.

There's a phrase that says if, if you listen to your body when it whispers, it won't have to scream.

That's great.

Yeah. So learning to slow down, stop, start saying yes to yourself, say no to all those things. And I, I use a lot of journaling. I always introduce EMDR to see if that's something because there's core beliefs there. Right. I've always had to push. Well, where did that come from? Like, this core belief is coming from either expectations from parents, even if the parents did not teach it, but maybe somehow it was perceived. Right.

That you just always show up in a certain way, push through, don't get emotional. Yeah. So a lot of times EMDR is appropriate for any number of those things as well.

Yeah.

So. And I know we're getting close to the end, which is always a shame because. Anita, I keep talking to you. This is, this is great. I want to touch a little bit within the, again, the confines of not having much more time on the show about the age of AI that we're in.

Right.

I have some thoughts about its positives because there are positives to it. And yeah, I think there's some big negatives I saw. And I don't put a ton of value on social media influencers because oftentimes I feel like there are people who have a limited amount of knowledge and they're really more crafting a career path for themselves. But this one particular post was, you know, I went to chat GPT and put in trauma, blah, blah, blah, and it spit out these. And then their conclusion was it saved me tons of money and time because now I don't have to pay a therapist 150 an hour. This only cost me $20. You know, great move on my part.

Yeah. I think.

Go ahead. I want to let you know. Yeah.

I, I certainly believe that there are good ideas.

Yeah.

With something like that. But I, I also believe that that tip right there would be effective for the person who's very high functioning in their emotional health. So somebody who say, oh, I'm, I'm starting to experience some burnout. What can I do to help myself? They could go to ChatGPT and get some ideas. But the, the concern is for something like, you can't get treatment from AI. Like, that's not a mode of treatment.

Yeah, yeah. You know what? You know, Anita, because I just got to thinking, you're not going to do EMDR through an AI chatbot. It's not going to happen.

And.

Or talk through childhood experiences. And here's the thing. Even if somebody could put in all of this information to chat GPT like, the risk of, like, getting attached to an idea on the Internet, rather than a connection with a person who can see their facial expression, who can read body language, who can sit in their sadness and validate them and tell them that whatever you're feeling right now is worth working through.

Yeah, that's awesome. I'll sort of end our time with this. And I think it does connect, and it makes me realize about what great work you do and your peers. There was an interview with a pretty famous jazz guitarist named Pat Matheny, and he was at this neuroscience conference, and obviously a lot of neuroscientists and the people that were interviewing him were neuroscientists. And they asked him, you know, about the impact that music has on emotions and why certain types of music, you know, kind of are catalyst for certain types of emotions. And one of the interviewers had talked about a song that Pat Metheny had done that really, really impacted him when his father had passed and this particular song and how it was so emotive and. And such. And they asked him, he said, so do you think there's going to be a point in time we'll be able to know what notes are connected to what emotions? And.

And he said, you know, I really don't think so. I said, because at some point you're going to run into the soul. And there's. And at that point, and that's always made me think, Anita, trying to do or trying to create some blanket statement, blanket treatment. Blanket, Blanket.

Right.

When it runs into your soul or runs into my soul, how we will process that, how we will interpret that, to do that without another human being to be aside, to come alongside of you, I think would be. I mean, it would be dangerous.

Yeah, it certainly would. And I don't think it would be satisfactory, really, because of the longing we have for that human connection.

Yeah.

And to be seen, like we all want to be seen. Seen and accepted. Yep.

That is so, so, so true.

Wow.

Anita, I promise I won't wait two more years to get you back on the show.

Okay.

Your work is so appreciated, and I know our audience are going to love this show as well. So once again, thank you for being on. And for those of you in the audience, once again, thank you for tuning in. And we look forward to the next time that we're together. Take care.

Thank you so much, Eric.