How Mindful Retreats Transform Women’s Lives with Hattie Hawks

This time, I sit down with Hattie Hawks to talk about the power of emotional intelligence, her Mindful Retreats, storytelling, and how we can create more mindful, connected, and nurturing spaces—both at work and at home.

5 Keys You’ll Learn in This Episode

1. The Power of Storytelling for Healing - Hear how Hattie Hawks uses storytelling in her podcast and retreats to foster connection and help others process life’s ups and downs (01:03).
2. Breaking the Cycle of “Busy” - Discover how learning to slow down and care for your nervous system can dramatically improve your well-being—especially if you’re used to putting everyone else’s needs first (05:02).
3. Why Environments Matter - Eric Pennington and Hattie Hawks explore how leaders (and all of us, really!) can create spaces that are both productive and nurturing, and why that’s absolutely vital—especially for women in high-stress roles (25:20).
4. Intentional Connection in the Tech Age - As life gets busier and technology takes over, intentional relationships become harder…and even more important. Learn simple ways to foster real connection with loved ones and coworkers (35:07).
5. The Stories We Tell Ourselves - Both Eric Pennington and Hattie Hawks get real about how inner narratives (sometimes totally made up!) can hold us back—and how awareness can help us move forward with courage (47:29).

This conversation is jam-packed with insights, plenty of laughs, and some touching realness about healing, leadership, and living with intention. Whether you’re a leader, a parent, or just someone trying to keep your head above water, there’s something here for you.

Moments

00:00 Exploring mindfulness and stress relief

05:25 Creating a calming environment

15:08 Balancing dreams with business reality

20:09 Importance of self-care and relaxation

26:11 Understanding Gender Perspectives on Safety

27:20 Discussing safety and trauma impacts

37:24 Strengthening intentionality with AI efficiency

39:50 Importance of Meaningful Connections

45:03 Hesitations about reaching out to guests

50:12 Second-guessing and overthinking ideas

59:09 Being a mentor and disciplinarian

01:04:39 Embracing Uncertainty and Faith

01:06:28 Facing challenges head-on

Here are a few key takeaways for anyone looking to deepen their own EQ journey or support others:

• Genuine Connection Beats Busyness: Many of us are feeling more disconnected than ever, even as we scramble to keep up with packed schedules and endless demands. Making time for real conversations and meaningful connections—with family, friends, colleagues, and ourselves—can transform our quality of life and our ability to handle challenges.
• Psychological Safety Breeds Potential: Creating nurturing environments is not just a “nice to have”—it’s essential, especially for women and anyone facing high expectations at work. When we feel safe (emotionally and psychologically), our nervous systems can rest, our creativity thrives, and we’re more likely to show up authentically and compassionately.
• Rewrite Your Inner Narrative: The stories we tell ourselves—about what’s possible, what we deserve, what’s “normal”—shape our choices and our wellbeing. By being curious and intentional about these stories and having the courage to question them, we open ourselves to transformation. It may feel uncomfortable, but growth starts when we challenge old patterns.

In each episode, Jeff and Eric will talk about what emotional intelligence, or understanding your emotions, can do for you in your daily and work life. For more information, contact Eric or Jeff at [email protected] or visit their website, Spirit of EQ.

You can follow The Spirit of EQ Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Android, or on your favorite podcast player.

New episodes are available on the 1st and 3rd Wednesdays every month!

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Thanks for listening to Spirit of EQ

This podcast was created to be a tool to primarily help you to discover and grow your EQ. Science and our own lived experiences confirm that the better we are at managing our emotions, the better we're going to be at making decisions. Which leads to a better life. And that's something we all want. We're glad that you've taken the time today to listen. We hope that something you hear will lead to a breakthrough. We'd really appreciate a review on your podcast platform. Please leave some comments about what you heard today, as well as follow and subscribe to the podcast. That way, you won't miss a single episode as we continue this journey.

Hawks, good to see you again. Oh, so good to see

you always. Yeah. So, you know,

and it's crazy. It's probably you guest hosted for us

probably a year ago, right? Yeah, it's been a while.

It's been a while. And I. And I know we. We stay in contact and

all, but one of the reasons I wanted to have you on, I wanted to

talk about, sort of by way of update, what's going on

with your podcast, as well as some other things you're working on. I know

you've got a. I. Hopefully I'm going to get the wording right to

describe it. You have retreats that you're doing

for primarily women, I think, and I want to talk about

that. And then I've got some other things up my

sleeve too, which I can't wait to talk to you about as well. So

how about a bit of an update and we'll see where it goes. Oh, well,

thank you. No, everything has been. It's.

It's been good. Everything's moving along. So the podcast, the Rescue Room,

I've been doing that for several months. And what we did was we started

talking to all kinds of people about real life

experiences that they were having and how they were able

to make it through, because life was not about just falling

down. It was how you were able to get back up again. We all go

through this. This is not something like it's. Some people are more

comfortable than others in sharing what it is that they experience, but this is

just. This is what we deal with as humans. And so what

I ended up doing was like, it. It started out as

a sponsored podcast where we were doing lots of

community, different things. And then it kind of transformed. And

I was able to revisit a lot of the. The

more memorable stories that I had done while I was in news.

I had done a series called the fighting 126

while I was, you know, an anchor and reporter

in local news. And those stories,

for whatever reason, they just kind of came back up for me. And I started

hearing from those people again. I'm like, you know what? You actually have a really

crazy story. And since I've talked to you, there's been a lot that's

happened, like, in your life. So go over this. And

so I was able to talk to several different firefighters who had gone through

cancer, some of them explaining that, well, one I should say

is still living with cancer. He lives with cancer, but he completely

changed his lifestyle. He decided he didn't want to do treatment anymore. He went a

completely holistic route. And so he talked about how

everything about his life has changed and he's still here,

defying all of the odds, living on a farm that he and his family

created. And I just outside the

box things. And, and because like,

learning about all these different holistic practices has been a big thing

for me in, in my healing journey. And just like

understanding how it all works together,

it's, it's been really special. And so

that podcast, what I am thinking, thinking of

doing is rebranding it to kind of

go hand in hand with Mindful Retreats. Mindful

Retreats was a business that I started

with my business partner and friend Jen Harris. She

and I are totally different people. Like, we,

when we talk to people separately and then they hear us together, they're like,

it really is like a yin and a yang. You guys are like, everything

you bring is entirely different and both of you think the

other one is doing the hard part. And, but

you're just kind of like bringing what it is that we bring. And, and it's

been working. And so we have been focused primarily on

women's retreats where we all, like, we, we come together in

one beautiful space and we do two different

kind of healing modalities during the day, which could be things

like breath work, yoga, sound bowl session,

some kind of exercise. We did, we did barre and

we've talked about doing other kinds of things. We did a static dance last time.

I'd never done that before, but it was a lot of fun. It was

fun. And so we're just opening the door to all these different mindfulness

concepts that people don't do in the regular day. But what

we want them to do is to be able to bring these tools back

to their, their normal life after they leave us

so that they can have a more mindful experience, so that they

can learn to calm their nervous system and so

they can understand what it even feels like to have a calm

nervous system. Because for years we've talked about this. I didn't

even know, I didn't even know what it felt like because I was so

used to rushing, to being

stressed, to doing things for other people, for not even paying

attention to what it was that I needed and my body kept the score.

And so what I want for people, especially those who are

in these, like, high profile jobs, lots

of stress, you know, family issues or cultures,

you know, very fast paced, hardworking,

lots of anxiety, lots of like, emotional and mental,

like, like issues that we're having a hard time coping with.

Lots of technological advances that are also, like, scientifically

proving to be speeding us up with them.

Yeah, our nervous system is really struggling,

and so we're just trying to bring them back down to.

To their baseline, to their calm alignment. And

it has been incredible to hear what they have to say at the end of

the day, because what they do is they get to

connect with other women and talk about

life's real challenges, which is healing in and of itself.

But then they're. They're eating healthy food, they're being cared for, because,

I mean, I'm there, Jen is there. We're holding space for the

room and being able to navigate the conversations while also making

sure that they have everything they need, that they're comfortable.

And, you know, it's funny, because we want

this to be a healing opportunity for everyone, too.

And we've had guests tell us that they've learned more

in five hours than they did in five years of therapy, which.

Oh, wow. I'm not a therapist, but I was like, yay,

this is great. I'm so glad that

you were able to, like, find that here.

And I think it goes to show how simple it could

actually be for us all to feel a lot better. Because if that can

happen in one day, just from having people hear

you and relax with you and

laugh and play and, like, eat good food like that, I

mean, that's just. It sounds so simple, and it kind

of is, but we taught them a lot about their nervous system and about how

journaling works and how their brain and trauma works. And

it's just kind of this door opener to

a different way of living and understanding how to live

and which. Which you know all about because it's you. You kind

of embody the. The mindful lifestyle. It's. It.

We teach a little bit of emotional intelligence,

and it's just kind of getting their wheels turning to slowing

them down so that they can. Can make

more choices that are aligned with them. And

we are starting to look into the corporate

side of things. So we've got corporate

retreats that are coming up there on deck

for this year, and we're going to bring essentially the same

model with some adjustments so that it can work in the

work atmosphere. You know, especially if you're dealing with both men and

women together, it's going to look a little different. And

it doesn't mean that we'll necessarily, like. Because, you know, when it's women together, you're

just going in. You just. Just like you

would want for men. Like you would want them to be able to connect like

that, too. It's going to look different in a room of men than it is

women. But, you know, it's just been. It's

been awesome to see and very exciting to. To

get to grow and then to see where it's going to go. We're very

excited. Well, I can see why. And

there's. There's a couple of things that come to my mind that you were saying,

and you. And I had an offline sort of text

communication. It was. I think it might have been yesterday or the day before.

And I. I sent you some song

lyrics that I think kind of reflected some of the idea about

when people find themselves in the. And I don't know

if I use this word, but ditch. Find

themselves in that kind of. I, I'm struggling

here. Right? Yeah. And so much of this kind of work that you

do, and I think we're in that category too. We're trying to help people.

Right. But I like the visual

of. And, And I. I won't paraphrase the entire

verses that I sent you, but this idea about that, you know, when you

think the battle's won, you hear the distant guns of all those fighting

still, I think the crucial

differentiator is what will you do when you hear

those guns going off and you know someone

is fighting? You may not be, because maybe you had a

breakthrough or maybe you're. You're adopting that mindful lifestyle,

but you can't deny you're hearing in. In the, in the back,

there's these going. Guns going off. And. And then I think

there's the crucial decision, right? Do I hang on

to my elated place of breakthrough

and all of the rest, or do I

turn around and go back and help somebody

else? Isn't that the thing? Right?

Yeah. Here's the thing, Hattie. I'm not. I'm not.

Because I'm not a dualistic thinker. I'm not saying it's choose one

or choose the other. I think you can be elated in your

breakthroughs. I think you should be. And I also think once you

have embraced that, then you need to turn

around and go back where those people who are still

fighting and say to them,

or do for them or do with them, I'll help.

I'll help you. And maybe my what I just went through

is going to have something powerful for you. But I am not

going to ignore your guns that

are going off. Right. I can. You know what I

mean? So would you say I'm stating

all that to say, do you find that in your work, be it

podcasts, be it the mindful retreats that it is about

maybe taking what you've experienced and sharing it so that

others might be able to experience the breakthroughs you have?

It's. It's 100% all of that.

For me, I think the first, the

first thing that I experienced in wanting to develop either of

these things was the fact that I, I, I

needed it to mean something. Everything that, that I went

through. And maybe that's not even the right way of saying it, but I was

like, no, I. There was a saying that I used to look

at all the time when I was just, like, in

the thick of it, just, like, deep, low,

scared, very sad, very

heartbroken, and just, like, desperate for something

good to happen. And it was there. It was the saying

of, there's a reason that God has allowed you to walk through these

trials. There is. There are treasures in the

darkness. Don't lose hope. And

there was a moment that I had where it's as if

the lights had turned back on, and I realized, wait a second, my

life isn't over. It's. It's not over.

It had felt as if it was done, like there was going to

be nothing more for me. I was just going to have to keep fighting, and

it was going to have to be this brutal experience. I was never gonna get

out of this. But the lights turned on. I was like, wait, I can create

whatever it is that I want. I can. I don't. That

didn't have to be a life sentence for me. This doesn't have to be, like,

a label of who I am forever. Like, am I a trauma

survivor? 100%. Am I still going

through some of that? Yes. I've had to really learn how to hold

capacity for, for both things to be real

and true. And so, like,

as a reporter, I was always doing stories where people were

sharing what they were going through so that other people could

hear it. And I would have to. There were times where I would have to

convince people, like, tell me your story, because this does matter. People

will hear this because I get emails all the time

from people who are like, this was such a good story. I needed to hear

it. Thank you. Like, can you put me in touch with this person? So I

knew it mattered. And so that storytelling part

of me, I knew it mattered. But then I

was like, no, I've learned everything. I've gone through

everything for a reason. What could that be?

And so how do I then channel that? And

for me, I learned so much that I

never expected to learn. And I just

recognized, okay, I, I,

I have to tell everybody this like, because I

was also like, you know, breaking news before. I'm like, hold on, guys don't

even know. Like, I didn't know this. Like, let me tell you.

And of course, you know, your excitement for something is

not always going to be met with somebody who fully understands it. But

when you can say, well, hold on now, let me show you,

and then you hear them, at the end of the day, their little light

bulb goes on too. And then you hope that it's

that, that moment that that stays with them so that they can keep going

back to that light, light bulb and remembering that like there's

opportunity here. And so, yes, I want

to be able to, to help other people

because one, it, it's, it feels good to

be able to help. But I also felt

a responsibility or even a calling to

do that. Yeah, that's where I'm at.

Well, and that calling piece and, and for

those out there. And I, I used to be Hattie, I used to

be a very aspirational entrepreneur

to a fault. So much so that I thought

that, well, I dreamed this up in my head. Of course

people will line up and they will, they will come, they will buy, they will,

blah, blah, blah. And what it did to me is it

blinded me to the realities of that

you're a business, especially your business for self,

so you kind of gotta, I mean, again, this is the value to

me of having a non dualistic mind mindset

that says, yes, I am aspirational, I am a dreamer,

but I also need to pay attention to the P and L. Right. I, I

need to pay attention to market forces. Right, right. And, and if you would

have said that to me 20 years ago, I, it would have made me recoil.

Yeah, I would have been like, no, I don't, yeah, I don't

wanna, you know, but now since I understand that,

you know, Eric, you as a, as a soul, as

your mind, it has the ability to hold intention, multiple

things. And, and the two in this case are

running a successful business and also

fulfilling your calling. Right? Yeah.

You know, Hattie, I had this happen to me yesterday and I've

been riffing on this a bit. I think I even did it in the last

episode. There's this song

most people out there in the audience would remember, Seal and the song

that he's most probably one of the songs he's most famous for is

the song Crazy. So I've got this

remix of this song. And they did some really interesting things. But there is

a part in the song where there is a voiceover

from a guy and he basically says, what

will become. How does. No, how does it go?

Behold. Now that's it. Behold the dreamer.

And there's this pause and then he follows it with what

will become of his dreams. Right.

I believe that describes my

calling. Right. It

describes who I am and then what is to become of what

has been put into me that can still

coexist with a P L and

invoices and all that comes with a business.

I state all of that, Hattie, because

if you're too aspirational and I've been around entrepreneurs

like this. Right. I was one of them. You could just riff

all day long about the dreams and helping people and

bringing together greater this and greater that. I just

want to be sustainable too. I want to be around. Right.

And I believe both can happen. Right.

So what's been a challenge for you with

mindful retreats and I. And maybe and and me Set

some context around that. Not so much as in are you making money at

it or not making money at it, but more of, hey, you know,

we're seeing a need to tweak this or we're seeing

resistance maybe from. Fill in the blank.

Any. Anything around that. I think the one thing that.

Well, in like, in terms of how we sell them, it's.

It's. We recognize that selling tickets is like per

person is a lot harder than selling it to a group of people who

are interested. And so that's also one of the things why, like

pivoting towards a corporate kind of experience is also,

you know, one of the ways in which we can go. We've talked about that.

Yeah. The other thing is,

you know, women are tricky because

they need this, but they are

hesitant to actually spend the money

on themselves in order to do it and take that time.

Okay, stop there. Because you just said something that I think is

really key. Is that hesitancy

rooted around maybe a tendency to put others

first. I. Yes, that's.

That's like what it. It appears to be it Others

first feeling this urgency to have to do something

else that isn't there. Like when it comes to

stopping and taking care of yourself and

knowing that there are other things that you need to

do. Especially if you're in these really

high impact jobs and you're all, you're

running around, you're all. You're always behind. So we're already

behind and we're wanting to Catch up. And then

we hear all of these different voices, all of this, like, you have to

do this, I have to do this. And never realizing that

the one thing that's going to actually help you to carry everything that you're

holding, not that you should be holding all of it on your own because it's,

that's not the case, but, but

learning a little bit about the impact

that it has on your body and the emotional weight

that you're carrying from not caring for yourself.

And, you know, it's hard to explain. No, seriously, if you

just did, did this and you learn to relax and quiet the mind

and slow yourself down, you actually may

be able to handle what it is that

you're needing to handle even better than you are right now because you're

running on fumes. And I think we all know this from

an intellectual perspective. I think everybody knows, like, you

can't pour from an empty cup. But

the women, the, the determination, like,

now, like, I got something in there. No, I can still do it. Like the,

the push, push, push is something

that is, is hard to

step away from. I mean, I understand it entirely because

I was, I was in news and everyone in news, like the demand

of your life is there. You know, there is

a level of expectation, temptation. It's hard to say, no, I

can't come in if someone's saying something happened. We need

you there. Because it's kind of like all hands on

deck sometimes. Yeah, it's odd hours and

it's challenging stories

to talk about. And it's just the.

I. So I understand what the demand can feel like. I,

the urgency can feel like. And when you have this sense of urgency,

it's even harder to relax than if

you just had several things to do that day. Like, I've got some things to

do, but there's no fire. And I think a lot of us are

running around as if there is a fire. And most

of us aren't firefighters, which is why we

stay so long inside of the sympathetic right.

Because, because we're treating virtually everything as this

heightened five alarm fire. And you know what,

Hattie? I'm gonna, I'm gonna go down a road that

may make some men feel uncomfortable. So at least I gave a

warning. Yeah, we as men

have done a terrible job as the

way that we have treated women. And I'm not

talking about the atypical stuff that we

hear about all the time. I'm talking about how we've created

environments and climates. I think about a number

of women who go into these corporate environments, these corporate

client climates where the. It's made

very clear. It's inferred that, well,

since you're a woman or well,

let me help you understand. And it's, it's,

it's this arrogance that we've carried that, that

somehow we have kind of defined it

to a place of where you can't find.

In an environment where you're there a lot. Right.

There's no nurturing. And I get it. Men probably

are uncomfortable with that word nurture because we associate that maybe with

motherhood and babies and, but nurture for

me, meaning this is an environment where you can slow

down and, and I got news for the men of the world who are

running things. Most of you are not involved in

anything that's going to make a lot of difference in the big picture

of things anyway. I know, Big disappointment.

I know you thought that that new credit swap and insurance

program was going to just change the world as we know it,

but it just isn't that. That's a story

that we created. You got promoted to be an executive

vice president and you've told yourself a story that you're really important

and that therefore everyone should pay attention

to you. Everyone should validate you. Well, my guy,

slow down. Why don't you examine that story again?

You're not involved in negotiating peace with Iran. You're not

involved with finding the cure to Epstein Barr.

You are. And it's valuable. But I think

we've morphed into and therefore what gets left in the

dust, the nurturing environment, the place where

a woman feels like, you know what? I'm in an environment where

I can slow down. I'm in an environment where I

don't have to treat everything as a crisis. You

know, and I, I know it's not all

on men because I know there's some women who are in power who do the

same kind of stuff. I get it. Yeah. But, but I think

there's no denying in a male dominated society

we've, we've done a terrible job in not

setting up environments. And notice Hattie, and, and I got

this from you. I'm not saying I'm

responsible for your nervous system. I'm

responsible for your happiness, I'm responsible for your

health. No, I, if I'm in a leadership

role, I'm responsible for creating environment and

climate. That's what I'm responsible for. What Hattie

chooses to do with that or not do with that is

on her. But if I create an environment where again,

there is no Nurturing, there is no room for slowing down.

Well, guess what? I'm, I'm putting cement in your sprinting

shoes, right? Yeah, it's, it's like, it's psychological

safety. It is, it's baseline understanding of how your nervous system

works. And I think that most people just don't, they don't quite get it because

unless they're self aware to their own then they're

not going to recognize how somebody else is. And men have the,

the issue when it comes to like men

understanding women. It's that they've never been

one and like, and they've been and, and

they've been, they don't say they.

From my perspective and from my experience

just having talked with different men about my,

what I have gone through and like just working with

them, they can't really know what it

feels like to be in a woman's body in terms of the level of safety

that we experience on any given day. And women, we

only know what it's like to be us. We don't, we don't understand

what it is even like to have the level of safety

that a tall muscular man must have when he

walks into a room. It's, it's just a simple difference

there, like just physical safety in and of itself.

And then you throw in whether we've experienced any kind

of adverse life event, whether it is some

sort of assault, like sexual assault trauma, emotional

psychological trauma, and you're dealing with a

person who doesn't necessarily know these things about you.

You may have a level of edge to you that you

know they don't know. You actually might not even be fully conscious of

it if you haven't taken time to think about it. But

like you know that Maslow's hierarchy of safety is,

is real and having all of our,

those psychological needs met in order for us to

feel comfortable enough to operate to the

best of our ability. Like it's not about being a

workhorse and just churning out as much as you can.

It's about like developing

the, whatever it is that only you can do. Being

able to use your creativity is going to

be better than you know, however many

like files you can get done in a day.

So it is, it's just, it's, it's being a person first and

understanding the human being that you're working with.

And it doesn't have to be weird, it just, it's, it's an

intentional and understanding that, you know, this is how our brains

work. This is how well yeah, and you know what hattie

you know, I. There was a day long, long ago,

galaxy far, far away, where I did have a

responsibility for the climate and the environment in which people were

working in. And I did my best within the confines of the structure

to do that. But there's an interesting thing. We

had Esther Brooks on a show

here recently, and one of the things that she said on there that I

thought was pretty profound, she talked about love

being the center point. Center point of energy

that we should be pouring out to the world. I'm kind of paraphrasing.

She was talking about there's all kinds of different types of love. You know,

romantic and friend and family and all of that stuff.

But she said there's a real.

There's an importance for knowing someone

and, and getting to know them. So let's use this example,

right. The. The leader, and maybe he is a male. Right.

Okay. And he's got a staff of. It's a mixed,

diverse group. And say there are a number of women. I'm not

talking about the weird stuff, just like you said. No, I'm you. And

don't go. Have a line, have a boundary. Yeah,

I, I get that sometimes I think about that. But. Yeah. Right.

However, up until that line or that boundary,

get to know that person. Yeah.

Gain knowledge about them and go where they allow

you to go. Build what you can and then you can

set that environment. You can, you can, you can, you can develop your

climate so that that person. And that's

what leadership is. And I know this makes some leaders recoil because they're

going, eric, I've got this going on and that going on. I can't sit down

and try to get to know everyone that they need to do their job.

Well, guess what? If that's your mindset, you're a manager

and good luck with that one in the next five years. Yeah. Because

retention and loyalty,

it's. People are going to be more likely to work with those that they

really enjoy who contribute to their quality of life. Because you spend

so much time and so you don't want to be what is actually making it

miserable. Like, no. And, and yeah. And I'm sorry, I, and

notice how do you. I'm not advocating that you just

let things go and just, hey, if Hattie doesn't want to show up because

she needs to, and if Eric doesn't need, hey, I care about

my people. No accountability should be in there too.

There's no doubt about that. But I think we air more on the

side of not getting to know the

human and not developing

climates and environments whereby again

and again we're not, I'm not advocating and saying that that

leader is responsible for that person's health and growth and

all that. But yeah, again, I just think in a minimum

that that's vital and I think kind of bringing back

to her point, you should love your people. If

you're a leader, you should love your people. And again,

just for those out there who may maybe construing love as

always romantic. No, I'm talking about a deep care and

concern for the well being of the people that you lead.

That would be minimum. I think that we

perhaps over corrected in

our like wanting to

get rid of like because there is inappropriate behavior that happens.

Yeah, no doubt that happens. There's like, there are all these

poor behaviors that do happen on like an individual level.

And I think the effort to steer away from

that has been to know now you must be like totally like

non emotional at all. And my argument is that

isn't possible. Like we don't, we weren't

created that way. We don't. Like, I'll see people post about like

keeping whatever's going on in your life at the door and I'm like, good

luck because your brain doesn't work that way. Men actually may be

able to do that a little bit better just because of the way that their

brains can compartmentalize. Women don't exactly get that like we

are different, we are created a little differently,

but I think we, we got so like, oh gosh, I don't want to

make that mistake or I don't want to,

you know, I don't want anyone to actually misinterpret to the point that they're

like, I don't know how to behave. And, and you

know, to be fair, I, I kind of think like

a lot of people are growing in their emotional awareness,

but I think there is a long way to go for people to

recognize their own patterns of behavior.

What makes them feel safe, what makes them feel unsafe? How do

I have this intentional conversation?

So there, there is a lot of learning that goes into

creating safe environments because frankly we're not used to them.

Yeah, yeah, I wanted to pivot

to something. You've kind of already been

alluding to it at a certain level, but I wanted to.

When you think about your interactions with women and the

retreats or even outside of that, what are

some of the challenges that they're talking about, maybe that

go beyond things you've already mentioned. What are some of the things that are

keeping them Stressed or up at night. You know, however you would

describe that, handling problems. I mean, any kind of

problem, like, how do I, how do I do this? And a lot of it

has to do with connection issues, like real intentional

connection. I think that it has become

less common to have really strong connections with family

members and people that you love. Like, our

friendships are strained. It's all a little bit more surface level because we

don't have time anymore. We're not

necessarily taking moments for like the

deeper level of connection that actually contribute to our ways of life.

And having those hard conversations

and not knowing what to do. I mean, the things that our kids are facing

these days, the level of, of

loneliness and yet access to information

and social media and then just, you

know, it's almost like you're bombarded with all of these problems. So they have anxiety

so much earlier, you know, unresolved

trauma where they're not talking to each other about certain things.

They don't know how to talk about certain things. Neurodivergence,

mostly undiagnosed. And, you know, I'm not there to

diagnose anybody. I just have my own experience.

And so when people are talking to me about how individuals are

behaving and I have an abundance of experience with that kind of

behavior, I can say, okay, well, could be this, could be that, I don't

know. But have you considered this? Have you considered considered that?

And it's, it's mostly

trying to get them comfortable with the fact that

like you can be intentional and say some things

that might, they might think is weird. I think that's where

we've gotten and mostly with like older

teens or early 20s. And we want to have this

relationship with them, but we don't understand what their behavior is about. And

the behavior, frustrating behavior. And you have a lot of things

that you got to take care of already. And now this person is almost a

grown up and you're like, how do I keep managing these things? I

don't know what to do. And so like,

we'll talk about the, you know, how motherhood,

you know, just the burden of motherhood, how you can have these conversations,

how you can reconnect. But I

would, I would say the, the biggest thing is just connection in

general. And that could be with people that you care about, that could be with

people at work or even within yourself. Because we get really

disconnected from ourself if we don't have any time with

ourselves. So is that a call to

sort of strengthening the muscle of intentionality? Because,

you know, I know it would be great. And certainly those who are in

the AI space would like to argue that you could just get it in a

flash. But I think you kind of have to

work that out, right, because, you

know, interesting thing, you know,

I have found in the use of AI that it's been a great tool at

making me more efficient and getting certain things off of my

plate that would maybe normally take me, you know, X

amount of time longer. But the key is,

Hattie, and I'm saying this transparently, that I've gotta

be mindful of. Okay, so what are you doing with that time that you

got back from all the efficiency gains?

Yeah, you know, what are you doing with that time? And I,

I would say, and it's fair, this is no judgment, because

if, if it's a woman who gained, you know,

20% more time. Yeah, you

should be intentional about, hey, I just

got back 20%. What can I do that's going to

improve my life, improve my health? Because now I have

more time, right? And I'm not buying

into the AI tech bros that are saying

we're heading to a utopia where, you know, it's just going to be

magic. You know, as human beings go,

right. We have this thing about how we can kind of

go off the rails with just about everything and anything.

So for me, I think the intentionality thing is key.

Are you finding that too, or do you see it a different way, as

intentionality important around this? I think,

yes, I think intentionality is.

Is definitely important. I mean, I've experienced what it's like

when people struggle to be intentional. And then I've experienced what

it's like when someone is intentional and it feels entirely different.

You feel seen when it's intentional and

when it's not, it's like sometimes it's just like, okay, it might be nice to

have like just a little bit of connection. It's fine. Like, you know, because not

every interaction is going to be like a real meaningful one. You see someone on

the street, you haven't seen them, you're like, oh, my gosh, hi. You know, those

are, those are great too. You don't have to be like

best friends or like a soul connection with everybody that you meet. But

it's always, I think that that is.

Our relationships are a direct, like,

it's directly connected to the level of joy that we experience in life.

So to be able to have those meaningful connections, that's going to be what

makes like, the biggest impact as far as AI

goes. I mean, if you're gonna get some time back into

your day. Then I would say, like, that's, that's

time for a meditation. That's time for going outside

in nature, getting in the sun,

having a few moments where you can play

with your kids and have interest in what

it is that they're doing. And, um,

like, my son, he. He likes playing some video games now. And

I kind of hate that because I'll tell you what, they love it. Like,

they don't just like it. When they started. It's. They love it. It's. It

is. It's addicting. And I'm like, ah, I knew it would be. But, like,

you like it. This is such a catchphrase, too. So I started

playing with him sometimes and,

and so now I, I'm like a gamer. No, I'm not a

gamer, but. But like, I'll play with him a little bit and that

makes him happy. And like, we're just sitting there and he's very excited, kids.

So he'll be like, oh, mom, like, let me just do it for

you. Or he'll cheer for me if I can actually, you

know, find the chair. It's like a musical chairs game. And I can't ever

get the person to move. And he's just like, mom, are you there yet? Are

you there yet? And I'm like, I can't get him to move. I can't get

him to move. He's like, let me have it. I'll get it for you. Oh,

wow. You know, and do I want to play video games? Do I think it's

good for his brain? No, but I, you know, now he started doing it,

I'm like, I'll at least take some moments with you while you do it.

So you know that I enjoy that you're enjoying yourself and this

is something that you can have like some connection

on at the same time. Well, you know what, Hattie? Your, Your

point, I think flows into, and you may be a read the story

about these people that, quote, fell in love

with their chatbot and then their life just derailed

because they got so connected to this make

believe, whatever you want to call it. I think

it's like anything else. I don't think that that means that

AI is 100% bad because somebody allowed it to

go too far. Right. I think there's that strategy and

I'm going to come back to intentionality. Right? There's an intentionality to

know when it's too much time with the video game. There's

intentionality to. Well, you know what? I

don't want to just cut it out. Maybe I can build some

connection with him if I sit and play the game with him

for a little while. I just.

I'm going to kind of pivot a little bit to talking about something

that's really been prominent for me. And this is about

our storytelling in our heads. Right. Because,

you know, when you mentioned about the person who gained more time

in their day and they should maybe a meditation or get outside in

nature, get some sun. Right. I can also imagine

there's some people that are like, let me just send another email.

Or let me. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna go back over that

proposal again. Yeah. Because there's this story,

Right? Yeah. So I want to talk to you a little bit about

that. I.

I'm a really good storyteller, and

I. I say that not so much in, you know,

like, how would I say it? I'm not going to

proclaim that I'm really great at it, and I. I should be on, you know,

some show where I tell stories.

Like, I'm a great orator, but in my head,

it's some of the greatest stories ever.

You should feel that way. Right. But here's. Here's

the danger. And my greatest story. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's interesting how they

protect me and how they. They talk

me out of taking chances, you

know, Very safe. Right. And

I've used this one before in other settings. Hattie.

And. And this was the catalyst for me to really examine

the stories in my head. So I.

We have various guests on the podcast, and

typically, I wouldn't say I know all of them because we get pitch from

PR firms, but in your case, as an example, I know

you, so I can reach out to you. And it's kind of low risk

because even if you say, hey, I can't do it, I know there's a reasonable

chance that you'll probably respond back, well, what about

next week? Yeah. So it's low risk,

but when it comes to someone who I don't know and who may

happen to be someone of great, great importance

or great notoriety, and I'm not

saying that the podcast needs that in order for it to be valid,

but I had a guest that. I saw them

on a different podcast, and they said something really profound,

and it just went right straight to the heart. It was just like,

oh, my gosh, that's so profound. I would love to have them

on the show. So

what's the story? Oh, you know, that's,

that's. They're probably not going to respond to you because,

you know, your show is not of that level

yet, and therefore you probably ought to, you know,

hold off on that right now. And Hattie,

I could feel myself going.

Good, good point. Yeah. You know, I think I'll. I'm gonna wait maybe

next year after we get to a certain of this and a certain of that.

Yeah. And then I decided I'm, I'm gonna. Hold

on. Let me, let me test that.

So, Eric, how do you know that?

I don't. Then how did you come to that conclusion?

And this was the part. I made it up.

I made up the story. And I get it.

My brain wants to protect me, wants to keep me

safe, doesn't want me to be disappointed. I get it.

Totally. But I made it up, Hattie. I

had. If, if you, someone who's known me for a long

time, if you would have said, Eric, can you give me some proof of.

How do you know that I couldn't give you anything? Yeah, I could give you

speculation. I could, you know, in some level,

you know, and I'm thinking to myself, how do you. How many stories

have I told myself over all of the years I've been walking

this planet about, well, that. No, that's probably

not going to work. No, you know, that's probably a little much. No,

you should probably just wait.

How many opportunities, how many relationships? And I say that with a small

r. Regret because it's part of learning,

it's part of growing. Now I would

almost say that I'm examining my stories daily.

If nothing else is a check in with myself. Okay, what stories did I tell

myself today or try to catch myself

before the story becomes this. Oh, my gosh, this

all encompassing and going, wait a minute, I don't know

that's true. I don't have any evidence that that's how they feel

or that's what they're going to do. Right. So,

long winded. Way to get to give me some of your

perspective about the stories that we tell ourselves,

whether it be from other people that you've interacted with or just even in your

own life. I mean, I too am an incredible

storyteller, so. Oh, we're one of the same.

And, you know, I think that a lot of us are. I think the majority

of us are actually very creative storytellers

in our brains. Not everybody is a doomsday writer, but I think there are more

of us out there than are willing to admit. Because you would Never know it

based on how we show up and how we act.

And I have. I have told myself stories that have

really hindered my growth at certain parts of. Of my life. There have been times

where I have dug in my heels

because I have known what it was that I needed to do,

but I did not want that

to be part of my story. So, like, there were times where

I was like, nope, nope, that's not going to be part of my storyline. That's

not going to be it. And then what did I do? I really hurt myself

by staying there. Really? Really,

I did. And. And, you know, I. In those moments, like, I always kind of

look at those as even, like, God, moments where I was. I was being nudged.

I was being nudged. Do the students do this? And then,

you know, all the effort that you put into not doing it

then anyway, you know,

but like, I. On any given day, like, I'll still check

myself. And honestly, it's funny that you bring this up because my whole text

thread to you yesterday was like, I need you to look at this. Because here

is everything that's going on inside of my head right now, and I

don't want it to turn into this. And you're like, I see you, I

hear you. And that's why you're a wonderful friend to have because you're like, I

get it. I am aware. And

like, there are. There are some stories that are

super subconscious where you. You totally don't even

recognize that they're happening. Yeah,

and that's. That's the hard one. Because I'll have what

feels like a total light bulb. And then five minutes later,

somehow I'm like, that wasn't a light bulb. I'll talk myself out

of the fact that it wasn't like, no, I don't want to do that. Because

what about this? And this? And then my brain starts going and it's like, okay,

well, just hold on now. Like, maybe don't say anything because

you know the whole thing about, like, whenever you're asking for guidance or

like, wanting to know something or working ahead on something,

you gotta stop and you've actually gotta listen rather than

talk. And I'm a talker, so

I will just straight up talk myself out of

great ideas or say, but wait, I've gotta wait

on that one because I have to do this first. I've got to get this

figured out first. And sometimes I get that, especially

based on the conversation that we just had about dreamers, like

how unhinged it can be when you are that

nature and other people are looking at you like you're insane. That's

not how it works. And you're like, but it's going to. And

that belief in yourself is important. That's great. But

I've also, like, the. The book the Tortoise and the Hare has come up to

me, like, more than once in the last week. And it's about going,

you know, it's not about, like, the fast. Everything happening fast. It's a

long game. But some of the stories that

I've. I've told myself, I mean, we could go real dark with it. I

won't go there, but I. I've had the life experience that has taken

me there. Well, what's gonna happen to me? Am I gonna survive

that? Like, what? This could happen. This could happen. I'm like, wow,

do not go there. Let's not go all the way

there. We don't have to freak out like that.

But I've been scared like that before. And so if you've been scared

like that before or if you're someone who's experienced complex

trauma, if you've seen. Oh, my goodness, like, for. I've talked to first

responders and the stuff that they see and then just kind of growing up

in underserved communities and things that can happen that are

more commonplace to happen, like, you can't help but

revisit it in ways that you're not even conscious of it. So, like,

that's the real dark storytelling that can happen. But

then there's just the storytelling that you tell yourself, like what you were mentioning,

which is, like, on any given day, like, having an idea and

then telling yourself why it's not gonna work or why it's not gonna

work right now. And I've had periods

of time where I would stop myself

and then just still continue to work forward on it. Because

really, I think, like, some of that. That's just, like, your fear that's getting stopped.

Scared. And, like, I deal with that right

now, so I can't even say, like, oh, we do this, but you must

do something different because it is a constant battle.

Oh, yeah, yeah. And you know what?

You. You're making, I mean, really good points, plural,

but what you just said. Right. And I'll go back to how our brain

works. You know, the. The sending of an emotion

is a message. And, you know, if our

brain is operating on best guesses, and I heard that from

Lisa Feldman Barrett, which I think is brilliant, it's going to give a

best guess that, hey, this Is the situation fear is the right

emotion? Hey, here's this situation. Anxiety is the

best emotion or whatever. Right. But

thankfully, and especially when I look back over my life,

I, I, I changed the way that I thought. I mean, I, if I can

say it that way, I, the rewiring, you know, that

I, you, we can put ourselves in a position where

when we encounter opportunity or a problem, we,

we don't have to see it like we did 20 years ago.

That's not required. And our brain, yes, in the beginning,

will resist the change, but it doesn't take a ton of

time before the brain will start to support the new way of thinking.

Right. Our audience has probably heard this to nausea

about my, my big, one of my big issues that I had

to overcome was the fear of abandonment. Yeah. And

yeah, it was rooted in a traumatic experience in my childhood. I

totally got that. But I carried that with me on into

adulthood. Right. And it wasn't until, and it was just

my, my approach. I got tired

of being so unbelievably tired of

dealing with this constant, okay, oh, they're looking

for the exit. I know it. I know that's what they're going to do. They're

going to, they're going to leave and start to go. Okay, hold on.

How do you know that? Is that true? Is it

actually true that they are looking at the exit sign and just looking for

an opportunity to leave? And yes, I get it. Some

people will abandon you. That will potentially happen. That's called the human

experience. But for the most part, Hattie,

abandonment is not happening all day, every day

of your life. It just isn't right.

Most, in most cases, it's not happening that way. And

I came to a choice of I've either got to change the way I think

or this is going to put me in really, really compromised

position. And yes, in the beginning, I had

those days where it would be like I'd get that story starting to creep up.

Yeah. Well, what about. Nope, hold on.

Stop. Yeah, and I had to do that. And

again, I want to stress to our audience, this is the approach

I took. Someone out there, you might need a

therapist to help you hold your hand while you're going through

developing a new way of thinking. Do that, please.

But for me, this is the process that I

followed. And, you know, now, Hattie,

do I ever get, like, the story starting to kind of creep? Of course I

do. You don't, you don't eradicate it. But now

I know it. I know what it is. I know it's not true. So

I'm able to adjust and pivot. Right?

Yeah. And I. I long for that for people that they can

develop the tools, the skill, if you will. And I

mean, I know it's part of the kind of stuff that you're talking about with

mindful retreats, this kind of our work and emotional intelligence.

Because I think those things, if

we don't change the way we think, our brain will just normalize what

it's always done. Right. It's all patterns, and they're not

even all ours. Like, it's. They were passed down.

I'm like, this ain't fair. Like, we had know. But everything else was

passed down too. I mean, well. But Hattie, you know what? I.

It's like my temptation at times with my children. Right. Who are

adults now, is like, I just want to say I'm sorry. Yeah.

I already say that. And they're only 4 and 7 and they're

like, no, stop. Well, but they will be

emotionally aware. But here's the thing, right?

You know, there's a lot of talk and has been for years.

We just dropped the word leadership at. At

every turning corner. Right. Thousands, if not hundreds

of thousands of books written on leadership. How should we be a

better leader? Leader. But I think one of the most powerful

types is the influence that a parent

has with their kids. And. And I'm saying

that it gets.

I'm saying that truly from someone who

trip and fell a lot. But it

reminds me that, you know, your

everyday behaviors and decisions. And then I'm

going to kind of pull that back in from Esther Books about

this being intentional with love

for people. We should be. It

should help us to realize that everywhere I

go, Hattie, every relationship,

the server at the restaurant, the cashier at the grocery

store, the friend that I haven't talked to in six months, I

am bringing influence. Yeah.

That would. If we could get that, we might

be a little more careful in how we treat people and how we. What

environments we set influence and safety.

That because you don't like, I've had a few kids

that I didn't expect these interactions to

happen. Like, one. There was one set of kids, these were

friends of my sons. And I mean, I loved

them. I did like. And I felt their love for me when they would be

around, but when I was no longer going to be around

them anymore, like, it was. I didn't expect. Expect it. There

were tears. There were. I was their second mom and I had

no idea. I had no idea that they had felt that way,

I just, you know, I wanted them to have an environment where they could come

in, and if they were going to do anything that was against my rules, I

was going to parent them, just as I would parent my kids

or be like, we are not doing that right now. This is like, I understand

that you're having a big emotion, but this is how we're going to talk about

it, and, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then I had another interaction which

was entirely different because I've been working with some students, and

one of them was having some behavioral issues, and I didn't really know

what it was stemming from, obviously, like, you know, knowing everything I know

about trauma now, you'd think that my first response would be like, okay, well, I

wonder what's going on with him? But it wasn't. It was so much.

It was so much. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. He seems like he just

wants to get on my nerves. But then

I took a little second. I was like, wait a second. What's his background? What's

going on with him? And then. So then I knew his background, and then I

was like, okay, all right, let me see if I can check

myself a little bit more, because the way I would normally parent a child is

not how I'm going to approach this. This one. It's not going to work.

He's also a different age, so I wasn't used to that age.

You know, it's all learning, experience, experience. And I was like, you know what? I'm

going to do a little mindfulness exercise with him and just, like, see, maybe

he just needs some, like, positive energy.

Let's see what we can do. And so I had him write down

three things. Like, I had him draw a picture of his favorite thing, and then

I had him write down three of his favorite things about

himself and three things he's grateful for.

I did not expect what he put down. It was actually

heartbreaking, and it was all very

baseline. I. What he wrote about, what he

loves about himself is that he can walk. One of the

other things was that he could die. And I. And. And

it. Right, right. Like, it was dark. And so I was like, okay,

okay, so I. I'm gonna take this. I went. I

didn't mean for this to be like. Because I'm not a therapist, and I don't.

Like, I'm not working with kids who are dealing with trauma. I didn't

expect for it to almost mimic maybe perhaps an exercise they might

have done. This was me trying to bring A little bit moment,

perhaps. Perhaps this would be a positive experience. But

he was very truthful and, like, this was it. And I was like, that's bleak.

That's really bleak. And so, like,

I'm sharing that. To say we have no idea what

the inner world of anyone around us really

is. And sometimes the poorest

behavior is indicative of someone who is

deeply hurt. But they're not. They don't have the words to

say, I'm hurting right now. Can you be kind

to me? They. They are saying, I'm going to get

your attention no matter what. I'm going to throw this

everywhere. I'm going to be mean to my friends. I'm going to climb

up this tree. I'm going to do everything to destroy, disrupt everything, because

I am so out of control that

I, like, I. I can't. I can't be this person. So I'm

gonna prove that I am the person that you think I am

when you're disciplining me. And I'm like,

whoa, I thought, I thought.

Yes, I literally thought, you know, I'm gonna try and work on some

humanity with these kids because I was thinking that they were having a little

trouble. Turns out it was me. I was getting my

humanity dose. I had forgotten some of what

I already knew because it's hard in the moment when you're dealing with really challenging

stuff. And I give so much credit for people who,

who work in that space and deal with, like, some of the

darkness there. But. And I like, I know

I like, I go dark sometimes, but I just. Because I think people

can be in a much darker place than what we realize is. And we

don't give enough. Enough

credit to that show up. But it

was. It was crazy. And like, wow. I just

think about the teachers, think about,

Think about the parents who have a hard time connecting. And they weren't

like, you know, what happened when they were younger, when they

acted up, you know, it's. How do you

respond? It's a whole world of learning how to be,

you know, intentional and someone's

safe space. What does that even mean? What does that look like? Well, you know

what, Hattie? And as we are,

I know getting. Running out of time, but I. I gotta say,

you're reminding me about why. Validating

why I changed up one of my prayers, my daily prayers, right?

And I. I would dare say I don't miss a day of it. Not because

I'm so great at remembering, because I'm not. But it's now

part of me is that I Pray that I would play the

role that God intends me to in every relationship

that I encounter. Because

you couldn't have saw what you experience coming.

I couldn't have seen what I've seen in the last two days.

But what I can be is I can set myself up

to be ready to play the role that God has intended.

Because once again, and I'm being fair

to my audience, that maybe say there says there is no God or that they're

not sure there is. I know Eric well enough

that I don't have the ability to look out into tomorrow

and go, oh, I'm going to be meeting with so and so. So I'm going

to need to have this ready. I can only go with what

I know, and my knowledge is limited. I'm a human being. I

couldn't tell you by any stretch of what the next 10

minutes is going to look like. But what I can do and I have been

given control of, is that what's

the role I'm to play? And maybe the role will be

like yours. Maybe you thought at the beginning,

hey, I got to do something to restore a little bit of humanity here,

only to find that, you know what? No, the role you're going to play

is much deeper. You're going to just, you're just going to be a

soothing environment for safety.

The challenges. I think, Hattie, we, we go in

kind of thinking that it's all about that

experience on its face when we forget. Just like the

iceberg 9/10 is beneath the surface.

Yeah. So funny, before you even said iceberg, I was

thinking iceberg. The whole concept of, like, okay, just go a

little deeper. Sometimes we're a little scared to go deeper because

we don't know what to do. And I'll be perfectly honest with you, I didn't

act like a deer in the headlights, but I was like, okay,

all right, hold on. I'm like, hold on. I wasn't. But you know what

comes back again, Hattie? That

boy or girl. I don't remember if you said which one, but

those guns were going off and you didn't turn away.

Yeah, you, you heard the guns and you went back.

That's what makes the difference. I don't think it's so much. And I

know I might, I, I, My gut says you get this, right?

It's not so much that you've got all of the tools to address

whatever, right? What matters is are

you going to turn around? Are you going to turn around and go. Go where?

You're hearing those guns going off. So

thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, thanks. I always enjoy

it. It's always a great time. So

I know. We'll keep updated on what you're doing with

Mindful Retreats and the podcast, because you are in the podcast network, too,

which I didn't do any shameless plugs for the podcast network, but you

are. I am. And you will be

involved in the podcast. So there you

go. I've signed you up. You've. I've been signed up. You

have. Oh, my gosh. Thank you. Also, graciously, were like, yes, obviously.

So, I mean. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

So for all of you in the audience, thank you so much for

tuning in again. And as always, we look forward to being with you again.

Thanks. Take care.