Every company has values on a wall, a mouse pad, or page four of the V/TO. Almost none of them survive a bad quarter. Ryan says that out of hundreds of organizations he's worked with, maybe one had written values that actually matched how the place ran. This episode is about the gap between the two, and what happens to your team the moment things go sideways.

Because chaos doesn't break your culture. It just shows you the culture you already had.

In this episode:

• Why people fall to the level of their values instead of rising to the level of their aspirations
• The difference between having values and living them: vision, journey, culture, results
• How results-heavy values quietly produce high engagement and high burnout at the same time
• Why most leaders don't actually want core values (hint: accountability runs uphill too)
• What it means if nobody on your team has ever called you out for breaking one
• The weekly question that surfaces every crack in your culture in about ten minutes

00:00 — You Fall to the Level of Your Values

02:00 — One Company Out of Hundreds Got This Right

07:00 — 76% of Leaders Aren't Living Their Own Values

14:00 — Spicy Take: Calm-Weather Values Are Just Marketing

24:00 — The Difficult Doctor and the System Migration

31:00 — The Chaos Audit: One Question, Every Week

36:00 — Last Word: Vision, Journey, Culture, Results

RYAN: All right, on this episode of Make Work Not Suck, we are talking about why living or not living your core values determines whether work sucks, especially when chaos hits. Daniel, what does that mean?

DANIEL: Ooh, all right. I would say that when stuff hits the fan at work, people do not rise to the level of their aspirations. They fall to the level of their core values. And if those values are fake or fuzzy, or if they just plain forget, that's when work starts to suck.

RYAN: All right. My name is Ryan Hodges. This is my co-host, Daniel Steere. And in this episode, we're going to look at three key things. When things get messy, core values become the difference between the collective resilience or the collective meltdown of an organization. How misaligned values quietly erode trust, performance and culture long before anybody realizes the damage. And finally, your real culture isn't what's written on the wall. It's what your team defaults to under pressure. That's what we're going to talk about in this episode. So let's dig in.

[SHOW OPEN]

Welcome to the Make Work Not Suck podcast.

DANIEL: Ryan, how many organizations have you worked with where the values that are written on the wall and how the team operates actually have something to do with each other?

RYAN: I'm going to go one dollar, Bob.

DANIEL: One dollar, Bob. Everything above it, right?

RYAN: Yeah. Every single one of them. There have been very few, maybe only one out of hundreds, that ever had it right. I could think of one client that was close, but they had nine core values, which I think was part of the problem. They had a problem in the other direction. They were well aligned to who they were, but I don't think they'd done enough work to really tighten it down.

DANIEL: Nine is too many. But I would agree with you. Overwhelmingly, there's a massive disconnect in most organizations between what's written on the wall, or what's written in the V/TO, the annual report, wherever they put their core values, their mouse pad, and how the organization actually operates. Why is that gap so big?

RYAN: Okay, so I think here's the big one. I know we've talked about this on many episodes. Core values are a belief of the behaviors we believe we want to have. The reality is we don't often connect the dots to the social, emotional reality of how the company is actually behaving. So that's where the disconnect comes in. The core values written on the wall are just a belief. It's a pipe dream. It's aspirational to who we want to be, but it's not who we are. When you actually go into an organization and look at the actual behavior of people and how people respond, it's often not even close to alignment with what's written on the wall. And at the end of the day, you know this, using the Simplaphi method, just having the vision of the values is not enough. You have to have a journey to instill the values. You have to have a culture that wants to embrace those values to produce the results that the values are trying to drive.

DANIEL: Okay, I think you just lost some people. Say that one again.

RYAN: The vision of the values, the journey of the values, the culture of the values, and the results of the values.

DANIEL: Yes. Explain that again, because you just went through the wheel. I saw what you did, but you did it all within value. So help me understand that.

RYAN: All right. So there's the vision of the values, right? What we believe, what we want, what we want to achieve. The vision. When we think vision, that's always the future we're aspiring to achieve. Same thing with core values. When we're coming up with our core values, we all sit in the room and go, what is the thing we don't want to tolerate? And who do we want to be? And we write all this stuff down, right?

DANIEL: Right. Integrity and teamwork and all that good stuff.

RYAN: We can talk later about how you should set better values than ideas like "teamwork is a core value."

DANIEL: Okay.

RYAN: But then there's the journey. Distilling the values and printing them on a piece of paper and saying "these are our values" is not the path forward. That's a step in the journey, but for people to actually get on board, for the company to live those values, it takes an intentional journey of instilling those values into the organization. Rechecking. Holding people accountable. Holding yourself accountable. Rechecking the pulse. It's like drawing the boundaries on a football field. You've got to know where in bounds is and out of bounds is. If there are no markings on the field, or no markings on a basketball court, how does anybody know when they're in and out of bounds?

DANIEL: Yeah. And the ref can't do anything because he doesn't know when to call you in or out.

RYAN: So there's no accountability. So that's journey. And then the third one is the culture aspect of it, right? We have to hire and fire to these values. If we have people that don't believe in them, not that they're bad people, but it's not their MO, then you're never going to have a succinct team. You've got to hire people that are in line with those values, that believe in those values, that live those values outside of the company. Because if the values are well written and they're well grounded, then people are going to know, I want to do that, or I don't want to do that. And then the results just take care of themselves.

DANIEL: Yeah, they usually do. If you get the vision, journey and culture sides lined up, results tend to fall in place.

RYAN: Well, and what's the famous, was it Peter Drucker? What's the famous quote?

DANIEL: Culture eats strategy for breakfast.

RYAN: Right. But too often, how many times do we have the belief of culture as opposed to an actual culture of success?

DANIEL: The reality of culture. Yeah. And I would imagine that those results especially show up, or don't show up, when the pressure is on. When things get crazy. When you lose a big client. When the market shifts. When a major supplier screws up and you're left holding the bag. I think that's the moment where the results of your values either show up or they disappear. But you've got to do the work before the storm comes to be ready for that moment when something bad happens, when chaos hits.

RYAN: Oh, I agree. So let's do this. I think we've got some stats here, because I'm anxious to get to the spicy takes.

DANIEL: All right. So let's go by the numbers. By the numbers. What are some of our stats here, with the positive and negative sides of culture?

RYAN: I see one. Seventy-six percent of employees say their organization's stated values are not consistently lived by leadership.

DANIEL: I'm kind of surprised by 76. I would say in my experience it's usually higher than that, that are not living out the values.

RYAN: I like this one, and I am anxious to get to the next segment because I'm ready to argue this one. But I wholeheartedly believe 76 percent of their organization, the leadership does not live the values. And so that's a problem we've got to address. Here's one on the positive side, right? Companies that have high culture alignment, that actually have a team that lives the core values, [4X?] revenue growth. [unclear - verify against audio] So if you're working in a company that's been flat year over year, I always hear that.

DANIEL: It's a values problem.

RYAN: You've got a values problem. And it probably lies with the first bullet, of leadership not living the core values.

DANIEL: Not consistently.

RYAN: Yep. Yep. Here's one. Fifty-four percent of employees who leave voluntarily cite broken trust or values misalignment as the primary reason.

DANIEL: That's crazy. More than half of the people who choose to leave say part of the reason they are leaving is because the values don't match reality. Wow, that stings.

RYAN: Again, I'm not shocked, but it stings to see the numbers.

DANIEL: Yep. During crisis, another stat, teams with strong shared values see up to a 40 percent faster recovery in productivity and decision making. I'm really curious how they measured that. The engineer in me wants to measure that, but it feels true to me.

RYAN: I can tell you I've experienced not only 40 percent, but 60, 70, 80 percent faster recovery. I've seen companies take months to quarters to recover from bad decisions, whereas I've seen teams literally recover from bad decisions in days and weeks. And that is the core value alignment.

DANIEL: All right, last one. Organizations that embed values into their daily operations report 32 percent higher engagement and 35 percent lower burnout. That sounds like that's the journey and culture, right? It's how the culture is woven into the processes, which a lot of people, I know I struggle with seeing that and what that means. But if you do it, I totally believe you'd have better engagement and less burnout.

RYAN: There's something there. [unclear - verify against audio] So anxious to get to the next segment. I think I do agree with the 32 percent higher engagement and 35 percent less burnout when the values are weighted and there's balance to the core values. Where I have seen teams that have high rates of engagement, but there's a high rate of burnout, the overall culture of the people is strong, but the burnout is high as well, and they don't leave. They're burned out, but they don't leave because they're so engaged with the culture. But it's more like there's a friendly culture, or everybody's good people. What I've noticed in those companies is the core values will often weigh quick results. So, you know what we call red line, green line, right? They incentivize red lines. But because they're all on the same page with their red lining, it's almost like the lemmings running off the cliff that don't realize they're running off the cliff. So where I would say organizations that embed those in their daily operations have the 32 percent higher engagement and 35 percent less burnout, they have equal weighted core values that both drive the right amount of speed and the right amount of diligence.

DANIEL: That idea of weighting your values, that's interesting, because I worked with an organization once several years ago and it was just a very high D organization. Everybody in that organization was hard charging, not especially relational, very task oriented, extroverted. They ran hard and they chewed people up and spit them out. If you weren't wired like that, you didn't last. So it was a strong culture, but it was unbalanced. And over time I think they all burnt each other out, because they just kept pushing each other. Go faster, faster, faster, faster. And they would eat their young, and it was really hard for them to grow, because the culture was so strong but it wasn't a healthy culture. Is that what you mean by balanced?

RYAN: Yeah. Absolutely. And we can get into it more in the next segment. I think we've got this in a couple of other episodes, where it's having a vision value, a journey value, a culture value, a results value and a purpose value. So equally weighting them in the balance of behavior, not just having four results values and one vision value. It's common to have all results values, and then wondering why you can't keep any journey and culture people hired. Well, and I want to throw this out there real quick, because the stats we're referencing are not just generic stats. These are coming from Deloitte, PwC, Gallup, MIT, and a few others. So these are some very notable resources that are calculating these stats. This is not just some small group of companies. This is a real problem.

DANIEL: Oh yeah. All right. So give me some spicy takes. What are some bold, uncomfortable truths that we need to be talking about?

RYAN: All right. The fighting stage. I like the fighting segment of our episodes. All right, so here's the first one that's up. If your values only matter when things are calm, they aren't values, they're marketing.

DANIEL: Oh, damn. That stings.

RYAN: So do you agree or disagree?

DANIEL: I totally agree. I think that under stress, under pressure, the masks come off. You can't pretend very well under stress. For me, I can pretend to be friendly, but under stress I get very task oriented. And in that moment you've got to ask yourself, what do you really believe? How important are these things to you? And if they're truly important, you will hold on to them even in stressful times. But if they're not that important, you will drop them like a bad habit.

RYAN: Exactly. And when the going gets tough, what do we do? Get rid of the values. The values fall by the wayside, unless we're unified to it. You're going to default to your MO that you yourself have been programmed to, and you as a collective culture. Your company culture is your tribe. And what you've allowed or not allowed is what's going to stick.

DANIEL: Yeah. I see this all the time in results oriented companies where we say we value people, but then it looks like we're going to miss earnings this quarter, and sure enough we start firing people. Or we double down. Oh, we've got to hit the numbers. People over profit, and then we're not going to hit our earnings, and so what do we do? We squeeze the people and have them work late. Or there's a big deal and there's a process we're supposed to follow, but hey man, we've got to get this deal over the finish line, screw the process, just get it done.

RYAN: Yep.

DANIEL: And it's like, that shows what's really important to you. You care about results. You don't care about journey.

RYAN: Well, and what I say when things are calm. If your values only matter when things are calm, that basically means you've just written fluffy words on the wall. You've written something that makes you feel good about your values. Just get to the next bullet, because this is going to prove my point. If they're just things written on the wall and they fall apart any time things get tough, they aren't real values. We've said that. But the real question is, what is the leader doing? And I will extend this a little further. If you've written them to make you feel good and you're promoting them, but you yourself as a leader are not living them, then it is just marketing. It's sham marketing.

DANIEL: Yeah. They're theatrical values, not real values. Okay, number two. Most leaders don't actually want core values, because core values force accountability that they are not ready for.

RYAN: Bingo. Why do 76 percent of employees say their organization's values are not consistently lived by their leadership team? Because the leaders don't want to be held accountable. The funny thing is, most leaders believe in accountability and they think everybody should be held accountable, but they're the worst at either holding accountable or being held accountable. And I think this is even more so when you get, in the EOS world, the visionary, right?

DANIEL: Yeah.

RYAN: How many visionaries have I had to literally peg into a corner to get them to admit, or agree, or drop, or do? Because they're so afraid of the what if. Well, what if we tell this series of customers no? We could be helping them. It's like, you can't serve everybody. You can't be everything to everybody. You can't help every customer. You can't have every feature. And I think that's the thing. These core values that are just marketing on the wall are really what the owner, founder, visionary wants. Those are often the things they aspire to have, but they are the worst at actually following. And I think there are two things that you can do here. One, you need to admit to yourself what the real core values are. Two, you need to build a company in a way where you get yourself out of the way. Be more of a chairman. You could still be the CEO and owner of the company, but be the chairman of the board, not the day to day operator of the company. You will be excluded from your company culture, but the culture itself will thrive. And at the end of the day, if you're trying to make a company that's going to serve a market and generate profits, and you're the culture problem, it's not going to get past three to five million dollars if you're the culture problem.

DANIEL: Right. All right, so I've got one for you. If you're the leader of the organization, CEO, founder, president, whatever your title is, and your people have never called you out for not following the core values, you don't have real values.

RYAN: Ooh, that is true. And I think the other part of it is you don't have real values if the people are too afraid to call you out, because that means you don't live by the values you said anyway.

DANIEL: Right. Radical candor, or true authenticity. And the staff is afraid to call you out because you basically can't take the radical candor. Or you're a tyrant, and everyone's scared of you, and so no one will tell you the truth. Yeah. I'm sure that whatever is written on the wall of that organization isn't that.

RYAN: Look, this goes back, and I'm going on a bit of a rant, but back in the lack of technology, you go back to like the 40s and 50s, where people just showed up to work and they listened to their boss, and we just did as we were told, and we read the newspaper. That's why they call it the silent generation. They just did what they were told. That behavior is still believed to be there, that we can just fake it. And of course, a lot of that was pre-technology. A lot of people could go, especially in a larger organization, they could go to one office, and they might screw something up or say something bad, but they can go to the next office and hold them accountable, and they weren't talking to each other. Versus now, with email and Teams and Slack and Facebook, the boss screws up and it's all over the place. Stop pretending you can fool human beings. Your facade is totally see-through.

DANIEL: Yeah. Just stop. Everybody knows.

RYAN: If you're going to be a tyrant, just make your core values state, this is a dictator organization. It's my way or the highway. And you know what? There may be people, there probably are people, that say, you know what, I just want to show up to work, I want someone to tell me what to do, I want to collect my paycheck and I want to go home. There are people like that.

DANIEL: There are. And that's okay. They don't tend to work for winning organizations, but there are people out there that just want to stay in their lane. But I've got one.

RYAN: Go ahead.

DANIEL: Chaos does not create culture problems. It simply exposes the culture problems that leadership tried to ignore.

RYAN: A thousand percent. And I think most leaders, especially small business leaders, are red liners, right? They make a decision that has a perceived high value and a low actual value. The difference is in the time. When they make the decision it looks like it's this grandiose decision, but then it rolls downhill and the operations team is spending three, six months cleaning up the mess. And then they're wondering, well, why can't anybody get anything done? Because they are the manure spreader in the bull in a china shop. Those moments are exactly that. It's what exposes the values leadership is ignoring. When you've got a core value of "do the right thing," and in your mind, rushing to close that deal, or leaving out all the details, or just getting the signature, did you really do the right thing? Or did you just rush to a result because you wanted to high five and get a commission? But oh, by the way, in three months you're getting it clawed back, because you didn't actually do the right thing. Or if you're the owner leader in this situation, your profits are going to suffer, or you're probably going to have to fire people, and then you're probably turbulent, like, well I need to hire some people, but if I fire some people everybody's going to get scared, and what do I do?

DANIEL: Yeah. Or give discounts to a pissed client because you didn't take care of them the way you promised you would.

RYAN: I've got a positive example of this one. There's a group I'm working with. We've got a difficult doctor. Brilliant doctor, great doctor. He's just one of those, he's just difficult to work with. And that's because he's got high expectations, high standards. And I would say there's a level of everything outside of patient care that is red line, but patient care is definitely green line. So strength, weakness, right? So we've got this major system integration going on, and man, he's red lining all the stuff with the system integration, because he doesn't understand it, it's in his way, et cetera, et cetera. But the operations team at corporate is just doubling down, because this doctor is creating the chaos. And instead of everybody going, well, he's the problem, or I can't work with him, it's, all right, we've got to figure out why he's upset. We've got to take this work on. We've got to figure out how. Because at the end of the day, if this system migration does not go smooth, not only is this doctor going to go "I told you so," or get pissed off, we're making work suck for all the people at the practice. And this is multiple practices, right? So in the moment of chaos, which was self created by a doctor, but I could say there's some good concern there, the team doubled down on the core values.

DANIEL: Wow.

RYAN: And here we go. I'll tell you how it goes next week, because I'm getting on a plane in a couple of days to make this all happen. But this week, the operations team coming out of our L10s, our project L10 and our operations L10, we're giving high marks, because we've come together to solve problems. We didn't back away. And what has made that happen is the leadership team of the organization has instilled those values. They live those values. They're open and transparent. They call themselves out on the values. And any time something hits the fan, what do we do? We pull up the core values and go, okay, how can we live these values?

DANIEL: Nice.

RYAN: News flash, we set them using the Simplaphi method, so they're well balanced.

DANIEL: Shocker. Yep. It can be done. It is real.

RYAN: Yeah, absolutely. It can be.

DANIEL: All right. Monday Morning Fix. If you're in an organization that is out of sync with itself, right, what you say your values are and how the organization really operates has nothing to do with each other, what would you recommend to that organization, to anybody in that organization, to do on Monday morning?

RYAN: So I'm going to give you two perspectives. Positivity is infectious. People love positivity, and when they see winning, they want to be a part of it. Now, when the winning is gossip and negative and stuff like that, you'll attract some but detract the rest. But at the end of the day, positivity is infectious. Winning is infectious. People want to see that. You can drive change within your organization if you're at the bottom, or middle, or you're upper leadership but you're not the owner or founder. So one, this shouldn't be, well, I need him to change, or her to change, at the top before I can do anything. Bullshit. You can make work not suck for you and your team and actually drive positivity in the organization. Even a little bit of improvement can matter. It's the pinprick, right? You just need to start the ripple, and the ripple will take care of itself. So if you are in the middle of an organization, and actually this advice goes whether you're at the top or wherever you're at, run a chaos audit. Quick, simple, easy. All you've got to do is ask your team one simple question. What did we do last week that violated our values? Map out the cracks that show up, and talk about how you can address it and prevent it and fix it, and then hold yourself to it. Just do that once a week and watch the change. You'll see the dynamic change in your team, and then you'll see that it'll start spreading to other teams. And if you're at the top of the organization, ask it with your leadership team. Or better yet, go to someone. Now, don't do end runs. Don't go down to the bottom level employee, or someone lower in the organization, and go, you need to do this. Just simply ask them, where did we not live our values as a company last week? Nope, no penalty. You can't get mad. You can't be aggressive. You've got to listen. You've got to seek to understand. Don't say, well that was because we. Nope, don't do that.

DANIEL: Right. And in most organizations, I think the leader is going to have to go first. The leader is going to have to say, here's where I didn't live up to my expectations of myself, my values, and how I want to behave.

RYAN: I want to clarify, because a manager is still a leader. So when I'm talking, if you have direct reports, you should do this. Not just leader as in the top person in the organization. If you have direct reports, you should do this.

DANIEL: But you probably need to give an example of yourself not following it first. Because if you come in and start pointing fingers at everybody else, it's going to get real awkward and defensive. You've got to go first by leading with that vulnerability. Be like, hey, I screwed up, and I did not live the values the way I want to. Don't need to make excuses, but I want you guys to know that this is what I did, and this is what I want to do next time.

RYAN: Well, and keep in mind, here's the exercise. The question is, what did we do last week that violated our values? What we're looking for is how the cracks showed up under stress. What was the stressor, and how did the value not get created? I'll give you a perfect example. My tech team that works directly for me, in that scenario I just gave, I pulled them in and there was a series of mistakes. And I pulled up the core values and I said, here's one. My rule is you've got to live all five. You can't pick and choose. You pick and choose, you're doing it wrong. You've got to live all five. And so I picked up a few instances and I said, please tell me how we went through all five core values in this instance. And I know this sounds a little challenging, but if you can show me how you exerted all five core values, then I will back down. It's a mistake. Mistakes happen. But nine times out of ten, someone goes down through and they go, oh yeah, I didn't do that one. Okay, so how can we improve that next time? Well, I'll keep it top of mind. I'll make sure I go through these next time. It's not a gotcha. It's not incriminating. And there have been times where I found mistakes and someone has gone through, I did this and I did this and this and this, and it's like, I can't fault you. You did it all. Your logic is sound. It didn't work out. It happens. Two out of ten times it's like that. Eight out of ten times it's, oh, I missed that one.

DANIEL: Yeah. It's like a crack.

RYAN: Yep. And it's a pretty easy fix. So this next one, I'm going to throw this one to you, and I actually really like this one. How can somebody do this? Define the "when it's hard" version of each value. How can you help someone define the hard version of each of their core values?

DANIEL: So I think the hard version would be, what does this look like under stress? I think for most of us we would need to break that into two pieces. For me, given my role, how I'm wired, my natural tendencies, what do I want to do? What's my natural inclination? Under stress, I'm not going to be as sensitive and thoughtful as I should be. I'm going to run over people, because that's what I do under stress. So recognizing that about myself and being honest about that with my team, so that they can call me out and be like, hey, you're being an ass, stop it. I would want to then maybe have a personalized version of, okay, so under stress, here's what I want to do that might not feel natural, but this is how I'm going to live that value out even when everything in me wants to run in the opposite direction. So it's maybe a personalized application of, here's how I'm going to live that out when I know I'm not going to want to.

RYAN: Yeah, I'm curious. I would actually caution against going personal, because then I think you start making your own version of the core values, and then you start bending the meaning, and then that actually creates chaos.

DANIEL: Okay. So is this more of a group definition of, here's how we operate when things get hard?

RYAN: I think so, because if each person does their own definition, everybody can add input to it for sure.

DANIEL: Sure.

RYAN: But I think if everybody changes the definition of what it looks like when it gets hard, then you create more chaos, because you created a bunch of silos as opposed to a unified value. Now, everybody should put their two cents in, but I think you need a unified definition of what this looks like when it gets hard.

DANIEL: Okay, but it shouldn't change, right? Because we said if your core values change when it gets hard, they're not real. So then what is the version of when things get tough? What does this core value look like?

RYAN: I think when you look at most core values, what's written on the wall is like, teamwork. And it's, you know, we value working as one united team. What we're trying to say here is, we work on a team. What does this look like when it gets hard? When we're tired and we're frustrated with each other, we have to remember the mission and work together and do the hard things and talk to each other and work through our frustration in order to be one team in a chaotic situation. Because it's easy to say united as one team, we celebrate wins. Right? That's easy.

DANIEL: Yeah, everybody does that. That's not hard.

RYAN: Right. Versus defining the behavior in a negative situation. I like what it says here. What does this look like when things get ugly?

DANIEL: Yeah. The "we're tired" version of the value, when things are ugly. When we're tired, we take the time to resolve our conflicts. We don't just sweep them under the rug.

RYAN: Yeah. If you think about it that way, in that negative, because at the end of the day, we talked about, when times are good and everything's just flowing, then they're basically marketing. Values are for when you have to make tough decisions. When you have to make decisions, period, whether it's slightly tough or really tough. All decisions have to be made. There's always a pro or con, and a cause and effect. But I think what defining it for when things get ugly does is it distinctly makes the value usable instead of inspirational. So I would encourage everybody to figure out what it looks like when things are ugly. Even if it's just yourself, and you share it amongst your coworkers or your manager, and you take it to your team. I guarantee you, and I have seen this before, you could be a company of 10,000 people. Take this piece of advice and watch how fast it goes up the chain and starts becoming the de facto norm.

DANIEL: Yep.

RYAN: Positivity is infectious. People love to be connected to purpose, and to know where the boundaries are, and how to do the right thing. At the end of the day, what do we want to do? We want to show up. We want to do a meaningful job. We want to utilize our skills. We want to improve our skills and know that we're doing something decent with our time every day. We want to get a paycheck for it. And then we want to go enjoy our families and hobbies and whatnot. And we don't get to enjoy our hobbies and whatnot when the work side sucks. So there you go. That's how not having real values when the chaos hits can make work suck.

[SHOW OUTRO]

Make Work Not Suck. Our podcast talks about exactly that. Our process: vision, journey, culture and results. We present real world business solutions that make the difference. Our goal is to make work not suck. Hosted by Ryan Hodges, co-host Daniel Steere. Join us each episode, and make work not suck.