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Management? But my pet has separation issues! with Jackie Moyano
Episode 157th December 2021 • It's Training Cats and Dogs! • Naomi Rotenberg, Praiseworthy Pets
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This week, Naomi chats with Jackie Moyano about dog and cat's with separation anxiety, different ways of modifying management setups and the differing behaviors from one pet to another in the same household.

Key Moments

[01:46] A game of "categories": multi-colored dog breeds and enrichment options

[07:23] Jackie's pets and their history

[10:42] How Jackie introduced Slinky and Aero

[13:29] What she might have done differently

[16:15] Progress takes time

[18:01] Key behaviors to train

[19:03] The difference between stationing/"go to your place" vs. relaxed settle

[20:35] Recognize good behavior happens more than bad

[23:08] Options for management (especially around cat food!)

[25:46] What can you realistically handle right now? Have multiple options!

[26:45] An easy setup to foster positive emotions

[27:22] Considerations for older pets

[29:09] Predation of outdoor critters vs. indoor pets

[30:53] Specificity (lack of generalizability) of cat/dog testing

[34:57] Tips for animals who don't like being contained

[37:17] Enrichment doesn't always need to come from you!

[38:16] Creating management plans

[41:05] Variations on a relaxation protocol

[44:04] Advice for when you're thinking of introducing another animal

Key Links

Get on the waitlist for Naomi's upcoming PETS Process course - click here

Dr. Karen Overall's "Protocol for Relaxation"

Jackie's Info:

Transcripts

Naomi:

Hey you cat and dog people.

Naomi:

This is It's Training Cats and Dogs - your source of practical

Naomi:

strategies to keep everyone in your multi-species household, safe and sane.

Naomi:

Hi there, I'm your host, Naomi Rotenberg and today we're talking to another

Naomi:

pet professional about how they've used their expertise to manage their

Naomi:

relationships between their own pet.

Naomi:

Let's get started.

Naomi:

Our guest today is Jackie Moyano who owns behavior United Dog Behavior

Naomi:

and Training in Washington, DC, or really Silverspring, Maryland.

Naomi:

Jackie started out as a respiratory therapist, but was inspired by her cat

Naomi:

to change careers and work with animals.

Naomi:

Jackie's done a lot of work with different species.

Naomi:

She's completed three of Pat Miller's training academies, attended Ken

Naomi:

Ramire's animal training seminar at Shedd Aquarium, attended Sue Sternberg's

Naomi:

Eden internship working with Alaskan Husky sled dogs and completed all five

Naomi:

Bailey Foody chicken workshops, where she practiced training skills with chickens.

Naomi:

Jackie actively pursues, continuing education, and recently added a separation

Naomi:

anxiety credential essay pro to her name.

Naomi:

Jackie's training partners are her Siamese cat Slinky, and her

Naomi:

dachshund terrier mix Arrow.

Naomi:

Hi, Jackie.

Naomi:

I'm so excited to talk to you.

Naomi:

Thank you so much for being here.

Jackie:

Hello.

Jackie:

Thank you for having me.

Naomi:

I think it's so great because you started out with your cat and then

Naomi:

transitioned into dogs, which is often not the direction that people go.

Naomi:

So.

Naomi:

I'm excited to talk to you about that.

Naomi:

But before we dive into stories about your pets and their behavior, let's do a really

Naomi:

quick icebreaker so we can all get to know you and just have a little bit of fun.

Jackie:

Okay.

Jackie:

Sounds great.

Naomi:

All right.

Naomi:

So we're going to play two rounds of rapid fire categories.

Naomi:

So I'll name a category, and then we'll go back and forth quickly

Naomi:

trying to come up with examples of the category until one of us screws up.

Naomi:

All right.

Naomi:

Are you ready?

Jackie:

Yes.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

The first category is dog breeds that come in different colors.

Jackie:

Oh, French bulldogs.

Jackie:

Okay.

Naomi:

Labs,

Jackie:

Great Danes

Naomi:

Border collies.

Jackie:

Oh, that's a good one.

Jackie:

Doxins

Naomi:

THat was going to be mine.

Naomi:

I came up with these categories what's wrong with me!

Naomi:

Who the...Doodles,

Jackie:

have different coats

Naomi:

And their noses apparently.

Jackie:

Yes, the red nose.

Naomi:

Shebas

Jackie:

oh, that's a good one, dude.

Jackie:

I just saw those today actually.

Jackie:

Huskies.

Jackie:

There we go.

Jackie:

Good.

Jackie:

That's a good one.

Jackie:

I'm trying to think of friends' dogs.

Jackie:

Oh goodness.

Jackie:

Let me think.

Naomi:

Everyone playing along at home...

Jackie:

I know

Naomi:

they're all yelling stuff.

Jackie:

They're all yelling stuff right now.

Jackie:

And I'm like, yes, of course.

Jackie:

I should've thought of that.

Jackie:

Gosh, I'm only thinking like golden retrievers right now, but

Jackie:

clearly that's not the answer.

Naomi:

I mean, they're flat coats that have

Jackie:

different colors.

Jackie:

That's true.

Jackie:

Yeah.

Jackie:

Yeah.

Jackie:

I guess I'm out.

Naomi:

The thing that came to my mind is schnauzers, but I think we're both.

Naomi:

That was a pretty good round.

Naomi:

High five.

Jackie:

Good high five.

Naomi:

All right.

Naomi:

So the next category is enrichment toys or food puzzles, and this

Naomi:

can be for both cats and dogs.

Jackie:

Okay.

Jackie:

Okay.

Naomi:

Brand names are allowed.

Naomi:

This isn't like a scramble and that's all I'm going to say.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

I will start a flirt poles.

Jackie:

Ooh, that's a good one.

Jackie:

The topple

Naomi:

Cong wobbles.

Jackie:

Oh, that's a good one.

Jackie:

The pet tutor,

Naomi:

I don't know.

Naomi:

Licky mats,

Jackie:

Doc and Phoebe's, and I think it's called your cat is not a dog.

Jackie:

There are these mice like things that you fill the kibble in

Naomi:

yeah.

Naomi:

I love those.

Naomi:

I often fill them with kibble and then just throw them across the room.

Naomi:

Let's see.

Naomi:

Snuffle mats.

Jackie:

Let's do the, have you seen the licky bowls?

Naomi:

Yes, I have.

Naomi:

They can hold lots of gross things.

Naomi:

Oh the quizzles.

Naomi:

Oh, those

Jackie:

are good.

Jackie:

The chase and champ, which suction cups to a wall or a appliance,

Jackie:

and then you can stuff it.

Jackie:

Love that.

Jackie:

Dogs or cats in place while you, while they get enrichment.

Naomi:

I like that a lot.

Naomi:

So this is not an item, but a treat scatter.

Jackie:

Yeah.

Jackie:

This love a treat scatter big fan of the treat scatter.

Jackie:

How about just a toilet paper roll.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

Now we're getting into the whole, anything can be enrichment.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

I love it.

Naomi:

I love it.

Naomi:

The, what's it called?

Naomi:

The I'm picturing it.

Naomi:

It's the orange ball with looks like the moon with the craters.

Jackie:

The Omega Treat Ball

Naomi:

Love that one.

Naomi:

And it doesn't make a lot of noise.

Jackie:

That's right.

Jackie:

I also like the brown, the reams of brown paper that come and pack in boxes.

Jackie:

I loved as scatter kibble in there too, for both the cat and the dog.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Insert recyclables here pretty much.

Jackie:

Yes.

Jackie:

Anything cardboard?

Jackie:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

For all the people we should, I should do like an enrichment specific episode.

Naomi:

Giving me an idea, but.

Naomi:

Oh, yeah.

Jackie:

Let's see.

Jackie:

Oh laser pointer for cats.

Jackie:

I don't like it for dogs, but for cats.

Jackie:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Bird feeders.

Jackie:

Oh, that's a good one.

Jackie:

Let's see.

Jackie:

Oh, so.

Jackie:

In that realm in the front of my house, I throw out all my compost

Jackie:

stuff because my dog can't get to it in the front of the house.

Jackie:

And then that does attract squirrels and critters that come

Jackie:

up and also enrich our animals.

Naomi:

Yes.

Naomi:

I love some critters.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Well, you have a terrier also.

Naomi:

I mean, I'm sure we'll talk about that.

Naomi:

Terriers will do what terrors will do with.

Naomi:

Does a long line count.

Naomi:

Like

Naomi:

yeah.

Naomi:

I love the long line for sure.

Naomi:

Why not?

Naomi:

I'm trying to think.

Naomi:

I have this mushroom, that look and thing.

Naomi:

You put, I use for my cat, you put the kibble in there and then it kind of

Naomi:

wobbles and he bats out the food there.

Naomi:

You're doing really well with this.

Naomi:

I'm running out.

Naomi:

I'm trying to think of cat specific.

Naomi:

Oh, their face cat trees and scratchers and any environmental changes.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

So I recently just kind of switched up where I put the beds next to

Naomi:

heat Vince and in sunny spots.

Naomi:

And the cat is thanking me for that.

Naomi:

I think that's pretty good.

Naomi:

I mean, we could keep going.

Jackie:

That's good.

Naomi:

Yeah, pretty good.

Naomi:

We hit a lot of different modalities of enrichment.

Naomi:

We didn't do scent really.

Naomi:

But that's sometimes really hard to.

Naomi:

Figure out how to do, unless you're actively doing nose work and stuff,

Naomi:

but that's a different episode.

Naomi:

So excellent icebreakers slash in educational.

Naomi:

Let's get into the meat of it.

Naomi:

Jackie, a little bit about your animals and kind of who they are as individuals

Naomi:

and how they came to be in your house.

Naomi:

We'll take it from there.

Jackie:

Sure.

Jackie:

Yeah.

Jackie:

Slinky.

Jackie:

He's an old man kitty.

Jackie:

He's about 12 years old.

Jackie:

Now I adopted him back in 2010.

Jackie:

No, excuse me.

Jackie:

Yeah, 2010.

Jackie:

He was about a year and a half old back then we had survived this kitchen

Jackie:

renovation during the Snowmageddon when it kept getting put off and put off.

Jackie:

What was only supposed to take a few months, took half a year

Jackie:

that we didn't have a kitchen.

Jackie:

We live, we're living in a one bedroom condo.

Jackie:

My reward for myself was I wanted a companion animal.

Jackie:

My husband wanted a flat screen TV.

Jackie:

We played both one, but because we lived in on the eighth floor of a condo, my

Jackie:

husband was like, let's go cat, not dog.

Jackie:

And I was not a trainer back then.

Jackie:

I was working in healthcare and I thought, all right.

Jackie:

Yeah, that kind of makes sense.

Jackie:

So we got the cat then fast forward, three years later.

Jackie:

I should back up the cat had some behavior challenges.

Jackie:

So part of our kitchen renovation was open shelves and our cat would jump up

Jackie:

there and knock class was off the shelves.

Jackie:

Okay.

Jackie:

That's not great, but then he would try and eat the glass real dangerous.

Jackie:

So I started, I did what anybody does.

Jackie:

I just started Googling.

Jackie:

I found this think like a cat book by Pamela Johnson, Bennet.

Jackie:

I read through that who knew cats needed mental stimulation and enrichment?

Jackie:

I certainly didn't.

Jackie:

I changed up my routine, what I was doing.

Jackie:

And low and behold, it helped immensely helped improve the cat's behavior.

Jackie:

And that really rewarded me and reminded me that, Hey, when I was little, I

Jackie:

really wanted to work with animals, but I went to human health care path.

Jackie:

So I cold called some trainers and I cold called some vet techs and I shadowed.

Jackie:

Figured I actually prefer training at the time then realized, oh, I also need a dog.

Jackie:

Now our condo had a weight limit about 20, 25 pounds.

Jackie:

So I met Aero at the shelter.

Jackie:

She's a dachshund terrier mix.

Jackie:

This was in 2013 and we ended up keeping her.

Jackie:

So yeah, I had the cat first, the cat's behavior issues inspired me.

Jackie:

Become a trainer and then I got the dog.

Naomi:

So slinky would have been four, five ish almost when arrow came.

Jackie:

Yes.

Jackie:

It was arrow a puppy or so I was told she was three years old, but behaviorally

Jackie:

speaking, she was probably more around eight months old adolescent terrier.

Jackie:

Yes.

Jackie:

And adolescent terrier.

Jackie:

Yes.

Jackie:

Perfect.

Jackie:

Perfect.

Jackie:

To to add to it, to a cat household.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

So how did that go?

Naomi:

What did you do?

Naomi:

How, what worked, what did it here we are?

Jackie:

Yeah.

Jackie:

So it was a one bedroom condo, pretty open concept.

Jackie:

We did a baby gate so that the cat could get away.

Jackie:

The cat kind of had access to the litter box and a safe space

Jackie:

where the dog could not get to.

Jackie:

We really had to teach the dog needed to learn, to not chase the

Jackie:

cat and the cat needed to learn.

Jackie:

If I'm being chased, I need to.

Jackie:

Because when I stopped, the dog will stop.

Jackie:

So that was like the big thing.

Jackie:

And I was still a brand new, like still learning type of trainer.

Jackie:

And so I called on other trainers for help.

Jackie:

And what they recommended was a long leash under the leg of a sofa so that

Jackie:

anytime the cat came in the room, if I could get the dog in time, leash.

Jackie:

Feed her for just looking at the cat, staying calm and not chasing.

Jackie:

And that really did work over time that the dog learned to not chase the

Jackie:

cat kind of learned how to control the dog by moving differently, not

Jackie:

running as much or as excited about.

Jackie:

So it all kind of smoothed out, but yes, there were definitely some growing pains.

Naomi:

There was never ever a concern for anyone's safety really?

Jackie:

Arrow never exhibited predatory behavior towards the cat.

Jackie:

So if anything, the cat was disgruntled to have this new thing around Aero wanted to

Jackie:

play with slinky, but Slinky really didn't want anything to do with her in that way.

Naomi:

So it sounds like they got to kind of a truce.

Naomi:

They were able to be in the same area with the.

Naomi:

The shit's hitting the fan.

Jackie:

Exactly.

Naomi:

Were they friends, have they become friends or are they still

Naomi:

just kind of like we're roommates?

Jackie:

It's yeah, they're definitely in the roommate zone.

Jackie:

I feel like they're more friends now or maybe that's just my wishful thinking,

Jackie:

but no, like when I bring her in from the outside, like he greets us up the

Jackie:

door and sniffs her there's some loosely affiliative behavior, but nothing.

Jackie:

They're not big, like snuggle buddies, of course arrow would never chooses to

Jackie:

snuggle up with any other animal besides a person and the cat doesn't go and

Jackie:

seek her out to nap next to so, I'd say.

Jackie:

They're roommates and maybe somewhat friends.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

You can't really ask for more the ex any like fully affiliative friendly behavior.

Naomi:

I always find is like super bad.

Jackie:

Yeah.

Jackie:

I just, I just needed them to tolerate each other, everybody

Jackie:

to be safe and not stressed.

Jackie:

And that's kind of where we are.

Naomi:

So now that.

Naomi:

Not as newbie of a trainer.

Naomi:

And you have the magic of hindsight being 2020.

Naomi:

Is there anything that you might have done differently when bringing Arrow in?

Jackie:

I probably would have done a slower introduction

Jackie:

because of our space constraint.

Jackie:

I kind of felt pressure like to make this work pretty quickly.

Jackie:

I'm a big fan of slow introductions.

Jackie:

I would have probably trained A rrow in some basic manner, solid, basic

Jackie:

manners first before introducing her to the cat face-to-face versus just sent

Jackie:

exchange and all of that stuff for sure.

Jackie:

But yeah, I mean, it is as I'm sure, like it's just, it takes time and

Jackie:

slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Some people have magical animals.

Naomi:

If they don't get along immediately, they just kind of muddle through and

Naomi:

figure it out kind of on their own.

Naomi:

But a lot of times things can, could have been improved and made even though.

Naomi:

Stressful.

Naomi:

If you had done it slightly differently, you slower they wouldn't have had

Naomi:

to figure it out on their own.

Naomi:

You would have been guiding them through it.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

And we can always, even if we know what we're doing, like it

Naomi:

never works out the way we plan.

Jackie:

So true!

Naomi:

So, you know, and even in my daily life now, when I'm like thinking about,

Naomi:

I still have some management around my animals have been living together.

Naomi:

God, three different, four different houses.

Naomi:

Years together something.

Naomi:

I mean, it's been a long time and they're definitely friends.

Naomi:

Yes.

Naomi:

But I still have.

Naomi:

Like just in case, my cat, if he wants space, I will close the

Naomi:

door or I will close the baby.

Naomi:

I also have the kids who are annoying to the cat but, it's like even, I say,

Naomi:

oh, I could have handled that better.

Naomi:

Like real life happens.

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

And especially if you are just getting to know this new dog, we don't know what

Naomi:

skills she has under her belt or not.

Naomi:

So, how have you transitioned into training full time?

Naomi:

Do you do some work with cats?

Jackie:

Yeah, so, Yeah, the majority of my clients are dogs.

Jackie:

I think cat people are less likely to reach out for professional

Jackie:

help or there's just like less.

Jackie:

No, it's just less well-known but certainly I do.

Jackie:

I have a cat client coming up in a couple of days, but I, I have had

Jackie:

cat only clients, but I've also had cat dog relation clients as well.

Jackie:

I do doing that work.

Jackie:

Most people don't want to hear about how long it could take or

Jackie:

how you kind of have to move.

Jackie:

You have to really have to move at the animal's pace.

Jackie:

And sometimes the animal's pace is slower than.

Jackie:

We would like our pace to be so, yeah, for sure.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

And that's one of the reasons that like the program that I have is a

Naomi:

membership like subscription based.

Naomi:

I'm developing a new course for 2022.

Naomi:

Everyone be excited, which includes three months of my, like the club

Naomi:

subscription, because I find that three months is kind of where you

Naomi:

start to see like a lot of really good.

Naomi:

Progress in three months where people are like, oh God, that is so long.

Naomi:

I'm like, that is not that long at all.

Naomi:

That is a drop in the bucket.

Jackie:

Oh God, I can't wait to hear more about that!

Naomi:

Oh, well we can definitely talk about that.

Naomi:

But I find, like on average, like three to six months, you tend to

Naomi:

get to a pretty good spot and then, it goes up and up from there, but

Naomi:

I've had people working for a year.

Naomi:

Yes.

Naomi:

You're not at the same like fully management level as you were from day

Naomi:

one, but, everyone wants to get to a point where they feel comfortable,

Naomi:

not necessarily leaving them alone, but not having that gut feeling of

Naomi:

I need to be constantly vigilant and it can take time to get there.

Naomi:

Definitely.

Jackie:

Definitely.

Jackie:

Definitely.

Jackie:

You just don't you want to get to the point where you don't have to

Jackie:

suck in your breath and hold your breath because you're shocked.

Jackie:

The cat came in the room and what's going to happen next.

Naomi:

And it's, that clip from the office where it's "It's happening!"

Jackie:

Yes!

Jackie:

You don't want that.

Jackie:

You want to know you've worked.

Jackie:

The battle stations enough that it kind of, everyone kind of goes into autopilot.

Jackie:

And it's not unpredictable.

Naomi:

So did you find, I mean, I know that you've mentioned training Arrow

Naomi:

on some basic manners would have been really helpful before introducing Slinky.

Naomi:

Do you have an idea of kind of what behaviors you might have taught her or

Naomi:

what you tend to recommend for people.

Jackie:

Oh, for sure.

Jackie:

So I'm a big fan of stationing, go to your place and stay there.

Jackie:

Both Slinky and Arrow know that.

Jackie:

So I would recommend teaching that reliable.

Jackie:

In terms of challenging it with multiple distractions and still being a, for your

Jackie:

animal to be able to go to their place when you ask them to cause that can be a

Jackie:

great redirection if you need to separate them quickly and they're, their spot is

Jackie:

out and available to them also targeting that can be a great little recall.

Jackie:

Hey, come back to me.

Jackie:

Come or come and be right next to me.

Jackie:

So those two, I like.

Jackie:

Just general life in general skills, but also a directional

Jackie:

tool that you can use as well.

Naomi:

For sure.

Naomi:

Those tend to be really important.

Naomi:

And I find that some people get confused between go to your bed and stay there as

Naomi:

like a positive interrupter type cue that you were saying you need to be separated.

Naomi:

So go over there and hang versus.

Naomi:

Settle on a mat, which can, and often looks very different, right?

Naomi:

If you go to go on cue to your mat and stay there, it's not usually

Naomi:

a very relaxed behavior because they're waiting for that release cue.

Jackie:

They're in this position, they're like ready for the next

Jackie:

thing that's about to happen, right?

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

So I know how I teach the difference between and I tend to think of it as

Naomi:

working on this, the uncured settle where like they're actually relaxed is nor for.

Naomi:

The setups where like we're working them through their emotions about being

Naomi:

together versus go to your mat is used in like real life, like stuff is happening.

Naomi:

We need to address.

Naomi:

Do you teach those two things differently to your clients?

Jackie:

I liked the animals to kind of be able to quote unquote, read

Jackie:

the room and make good choices.

Jackie:

I think a lot of that.

Jackie:

How we can live with our animals cooperatively.

Jackie:

If they, if the animals are set up to volunteer, good behavior that at

Jackie:

least makes my life a lot easier.

Jackie:

And I think it makes most clients life much easier.

Jackie:

So I do a lot of capturing in that if you like where your dog has settled, or your

Jackie:

cat is settled right now, go over and give him some food is case in point when.

Jackie:

Prepping in the kitchen or cooking in the kitchen.

Jackie:

And I turned around my dog and cat have volunteered to settle on mats outside.

Jackie:

They're just throw rugs.

Jackie:

They're not for the animals.

Jackie:

They're for us for pay voluntarily settle there.

Jackie:

And in my mind, I think, okay, they're ordering takeout and I'll take a

Jackie:

piece of, animal safe, whatever I'm cooking and bring it to them and

Jackie:

feed them on their mats or on those rugs, in that subtle position to

Jackie:

say, yeah, give me more of that.

Jackie:

That's great.

Jackie:

You see me in the kitchen and you want to volunteer that behavior.

Jackie:

That is wonderful because that's one less micromanagement step I need to take.

Naomi:

I love...

Naomi:

And so many people are not able to see those kinds of quiet, good behaviors

Naomi:

until you tell them to look for them because they're not as annoying as

Naomi:

jumping on the cat or screaming.

Jackie:

Yes.

Jackie:

The annoying behaviors always get our attention, the nice behaviors, the

Jackie:

cooperative behaviors get ignored.

Jackie:

And we kind of have to flip that.

Naomi:

Human perceptive.

Naomi:

Why don't we care about silence more?

Naomi:

Yeah, it's really hard to actively remind yourself to realize that 95% of the

Naomi:

time your animals are doing good stuff.

Naomi:

Either they're sleeping because luckily animals have to sleep more than we do, or

Naomi:

they're making some pretty good choices.

Naomi:

Cause if you can count on your two hands, how many, knock-down drag-out

Naomi:

issues you've had during the day, then in between those they've been

Naomi:

probably making some pretty good choices that you could have picked out.

Jackie:

Right?

Jackie:

That's right.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

So the more you reinforce you find those many good decisions.

Naomi:

You're less likely to have big problems.

Jackie:

Exactly, exactly.

Jackie:

Capture the good that's for sure.

Naomi:

So management makes it much easier to capture the good, and I know you wanted

Naomi:

to talk about kind of the different types of management that you've been playing

Naomi:

around with and how they factor into your life with your animals and also what

Naomi:

you've been suggesting to your clients.

Jackie:

Yeah.

Jackie:

So one issue we have, this is no secret.

Jackie:

Dogs love cat food there.

Jackie:

I don't know if anyone's shocked about that, but dogs are obsessed, at

Jackie:

least in my experience with cat food.

Jackie:

And when we feed our cat, of course, our dog is chomping at

Jackie:

the bit to get to that bowl.

Jackie:

And since Slinky is getting older, we don't want him to have to be,

Jackie:

as stressed or feel like he has to defend themselves when he's eating.

Jackie:

So.

Jackie:

We've set up lots of different management options and basically it's whatever I

Jackie:

am in the mood for that day or whatever I have energy left for that day.

Jackie:

So one thing is, Arrow goes into our fenced in backyard and

Jackie:

Slinky gets started on his food.

Jackie:

We feed Slinky out of a bowl, but the bowl is placed in the bottom

Jackie:

of one of those kitty condos.

Jackie:

So his body is actually blocking his head where his, where he's eating.

Jackie:

So that kind of helps him kind of defend his area.

Jackie:

If Arrow comes back in before Slinky is finished feeding her out of the

Jackie:

food puzzle, that's slows her down.

Jackie:

And then if I can keep an eye on her, I ask her to go to a mat which

Jackie:

is near where Slinky is and do a down, stay, wait for Slinky to leave.

Jackie:

Then I will release her and she can go like his bowl.

Jackie:

If she needs more enrichment on the mat.

Jackie:

She's really not settled.

Jackie:

I'll give her another food puzzle there or all call her

Jackie:

downstairs or into another room.

Jackie:

Sometimes I'll just feed Slinky in a whole other room and shut the door.

Jackie:

When I don't have time to kind of manage both animals.

Jackie:

So lots of different - it's just what I have the energy for that day.

Jackie:

If I have time to actually actively train it, I will do Arrow's got to wait.

Jackie:

And then I released her to go get the bowl, but it just kind of depends on.

Jackie:

What I have the energy for that day.

Naomi:

So do you find that?

Naomi:

I mean, so you could universally just say, okay, they're going to eat in separate

Naomi:

rooms and never have to think about it.

Naomi:

Do you find that there is a benefit to having kind of different options different

Naomi:

routines that you're playing around with?

Jackie:

Yeah.

Jackie:

So for me, it's just about what do I do?

Jackie:

I feel like going downstairs and getting all this stuff down

Jackie:

there for me, it's just what I'm in the mood to do that, but yes.

Jackie:

And yeah, it's just what I'm in the mood for that day.

Naomi:

We, a lot of.

Naomi:

Especially our plus based trainers.

Naomi:

Think a lot about what is good for the animals and less about the

Naomi:

humans, what is easy for them to do.

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

And I feel like if you have multiple options to give people

Naomi:

where it's if you just got home, everything, you're exhausted - just

Naomi:

throw them in two separate rooms.

Naomi:

Don't worry about it.

Naomi:

Sit on the couch.

Naomi:

If you, if it's a weekend and you are wanting to work on some stuff,

Naomi:

here's your option to do there.

Naomi:

So I think that's great.

Naomi:

We should all do that, have plan a plan B.

Naomi:

And I think personally for the animals, it is useful to also have them have

Naomi:

these different setups that are fairly predictable, in and of themselves.

Jackie:

Right.

Naomi:

But it gives them a different type of opportunity to.

Naomi:

Use their normal routines as training opportunities or so like mealtimes

Naomi:

one of my favorite like lazy person setups is just putting a barrier

Naomi:

in between and having one animal be as far away from the other one.

Naomi:

And they're just eating their food, right?

Naomi:

Like as long as they're able to both eat comfortably and they're not stressed,

Naomi:

hunkered down or whatever, like that is a beautiful, hands-off set up between

Naomi:

the two animals to have, to foster positive emotions around each other.

Naomi:

You could get fancier, you could have someone doing a relaxation

Naomi:

protocol with one animal while the other one is - you know?

Naomi:

Sometimes it's just well, they got to eat.

Naomi:

So we might as well, we might as well use it, as a positive

Naomi:

interaction between them.

Jackie:

Yes, absolutely.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

So I think that's great.

Naomi:

I love that I should come up with some different ways right now.

Naomi:

My cat, he has an automatic feeder for various reasons, which I can go

Naomi:

into in a second, but it's up on my dresser because dogs love cat food.

Naomi:

But I should actually change this up because my cat is also getting older.

Naomi:

He's about 12.

Naomi:

My dog is also getting older.

Naomi:

I don't want to talk about it.

Naomi:

I'm very upset about these, that they're both old men, but I started

Naomi:

seeing him like missing his jumps sometimes like up to his feeder, right.

Naomi:

I don't want him to have to physically strain himself

Naomi:

in order to get to his food.

Jackie:

Right.

Naomi:

So I will have to pretty soon start thinking about ways to make sure that the

Naomi:

dog can't get to the cat food, but the cats food is readily available for him.

Naomi:

So there won't be the option of releasing Ori to go get the cat

Naomi:

food like you have in your house.

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Jackie:

Yeah.

Jackie:

And he just goes to, or excuse me, Arrow.

Jackie:

She just goes to lick the bowl.

Jackie:

She's not really getting much of anything.

Jackie:

She would like to chow downon his food.

Jackie:

But yeah.

Naomi:

I mean, I am guilty of sometimes using cat kibble as dog

Naomi:

treats because it's just higher in protein, which is probably why

Naomi:

dogs go absolutely crazy for it.

Naomi:

That's a good, that's a good pro tip.

Naomi:

Everybody.

Naomi:

Cat kibble is smaller than dogs kibble, usually.

Naomi:

Some pretty good.

Naomi:

Some cookies for, now I have to assign myself a new management set up for that.

Naomi:

So in terms of Arrow, do you find, I mean, you mentioned that she doesn't

Naomi:

have a lot of predation tendencies, which is interesting as a Doxin terrier.

Jackie:

So from inside the house with the cat she doesn't, she, yeah.

Jackie:

Critters be aware outside the house.

Jackie:

She has she has murdered many, a rabbit and mouse and bird and all of that stuff.

Jackie:

Yeah.

Naomi:

So she has murderered?

Jackie:

Yes.

Naomi:

So very good doxy terrier.

Naomi:

Good job Arrow, not so great for the critters.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

A lot of people are very scared if their dogs have previously hurt

Naomi:

other small animals that they won't be able to live along with the cat.

Naomi:

Obviously.

Naomi:

That's not true in your case, what do you tell people?

Naomi:

How do you kind of peach parse those things apart?

Jackie:

Yeah, it doesn't always transfer to endure pets, other indoor pets.

Jackie:

I would say even if, there's predation outside against rats, maybe you can have

Jackie:

an indoor rat and the dog can learn.

Jackie:

Cause it's all context, right.

Jackie:

This animals inside.

Jackie:

Treating it timely and it's part of our family.

Jackie:

And of course you can train and counter condition, all of that as well.

Jackie:

So, yeah, I don't think.

Jackie:

Having that predatory behavior outside per se, is a deal breaker for other

Jackie:

mammals or animals inside the home.

Jackie:

I think every case is different.

Jackie:

Just like dogs who've been cat tested and are deemed cat safe.

Jackie:

That's really only for that one cat that doesn't always mean your

Jackie:

dog's going to come home to your house and not bother your cats.

Jackie:

So it's really case by case based, I think.

Naomi:

Yeah, definitely.

Naomi:

Especially cat testing and all of that.

Naomi:

Ooh, that's a thing.

Naomi:

But a lot of people say, okay, well, my dog was in foster with, in a

Naomi:

house that has cats and therefore.

Naomi:

They're good with cats.

Naomi:

That's probably like one of the best indicators that you have,

Naomi:

but it depends a lot on a house stressed and kind of shut down.

Naomi:

The dog was in the foster, how long they were there, the

Naomi:

personalities of those foster kids.

Naomi:

Whether there were other dogs there that were kind of

Naomi:

modeling appropriate behavior.

Naomi:

And also if the dog had lived with cats previously in their like old home,

Naomi:

did they grow up with them as a puppy?

Naomi:

Because if they did, and then they meet a new cat when they're three.

Naomi:

I mean, all bets are off there.

Naomi:

Like you were saying context specific, right?

Naomi:

If they grew up with particular animal, they don't know that cat

Naomi:

is the same as this other path.

Naomi:

And they're not the same.

Naomi:

Cat's just, they can just act so differently.

Naomi:

Even if you have, so I have a client who has, oh gosh, let's see.

Naomi:

So three dogs and now three cats, there were four cats and one of the

Naomi:

cats acts completely differently depending on which dog she's with.

Jackie:

Wow.

Jackie:

Interesting.

Naomi:

Like with one of them, Back off.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Other ones she wants to snuggle with and the third one, she could care less.

Naomi:

It's just, it's fascinating.

Naomi:

It's so interesting that they can read each other much better.

Naomi:

I think then often we can interpret what's going on.

Jackie:

Yeah, for sure.

Naomi:

Do you have a cat dog client that kind of stands out in your

Naomi:

mind that kind of taught you.

Naomi:

So it could be your house to kind of gave you more insight

Naomi:

into what's going on with them.

Jackie:

Yeah.

Jackie:

So I have a new client who's contacted me primarily for separation anxiety,

Jackie:

but we have been talking about her dog and how to kind of manage with the cat.

Jackie:

The dogs is relatively new to the home.

Jackie:

I think less than three months in the home.

Jackie:

And the cats are still kind of sequestered away and still kind

Jackie:

of freaked out about the dog.

Jackie:

Trying to teach them engage disengage games with the dog in terms of I see

Jackie:

the cat and the dog came from was cat tested or in a foster with cats.

Jackie:

And I was like, yeah, that doesn't always translate.

Jackie:

And you still got to do the work and just.

Jackie:

I mean, it's really disruptive to have this household.

Jackie:

That's kind of crate and rotate or separate keeping the animals separated.

Jackie:

It's a lifestyle change.

Jackie:

It's stressful for the people as it is for the animals, but kind of encouraging

Jackie:

them to take things slowly and really listen to the animals and let the animals

Jackie:

set the pace in terms of what they're comfortable with so that, months down

Jackie:

the road, you don't have to make a brand new re-introduction, you're just kind

Jackie:

of like taking the little small steps and small wins and building from there.

Naomi:

Yeah, for sure.

Naomi:

I, it's always easier to go slow at that first than to have to

Naomi:

restart with negative associations.

Naomi:

It's possible.

Naomi:

I have people calling me saying, they'd already, don't like

Naomi:

each other, are we screwed?

Jackie:

Not necessarily.

Jackie:

It depends right training.

Jackie:

It depends.

Naomi:

Depends.

Naomi:

I was going to say like those friends, those enemies to friends

Naomi:

or enemies to lovers romance novels,

Jackie:

right.

Jackie:

I just you'll have to, you'll have to write a cartoon like

Jackie:

that with dogs and cats.

Naomi:

I will be like the best moneymaker of my whole business will be a really

Naomi:

odd niche, romance novel, which I love writing that down as my, on my to-do list.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

So I think the.

Naomi:

The idea of expectation setting for humans is really important, but also

Naomi:

what you were talking about, like this kind of stress management aspect of it.

Naomi:

And I think as a separation anxiety pro you probably are uniquely positioned to

Naomi:

talk about this a little bit, because I'm assuming that a lot of what you do.

Naomi:

To coach people through separation anxiety is not just okay, let's do five minute

Naomi:

absences and then six minute absences or whatever, but it's to help the humans

Naomi:

cope with the fact that they're going through, they have this crazy schedule

Naomi:

and freaked out animal to manage.

Naomi:

So do you have any tips for people who are struggling with

Naomi:

animals who are not so great with dealing with physical management?

Naomi:

I don't like being behind a baby gate.

Jackie:

Yes.

Jackie:

And I don't know about you, but I'm seeing a lot of the pandemic pups are

Jackie:

the dogs adopted during the pandemic.

Jackie:

Are having some frustration tolerance issues.

Jackie:

If you have more than one person in the home and you can kind of spread the

Jackie:

love in terms of, we, we each take turns spending some quality time on the other

Jackie:

side of the baby gate with the separated animals so that they don't feel like

Jackie:

they're being tasked aside completely.

Jackie:

Or even if it's a, in the case of a dog or I guess a cat too - the case of a cat,

Jackie:

if you're comfortable having someone come into your home and spending some time

Jackie:

with your cat, while you go out and do something with your dog or vice versa,

Jackie:

if you're comfortable drop hiring, even if you don't need it, hire a dog Walker

Jackie:

to come and take your dog for a walk so that you can spend quality time with

Jackie:

your cats or your other animals and try, I mean, we're all spread so thin these

Jackie:

days, but you know, just trying to carve out little moments of quality time.

Jackie:

Like my cat, he's an old Maine kitty.

Jackie:

He sleeps most of the day, but one thing he really likes is to

Jackie:

come and sit on my lap in the morning while I watched the news.

Jackie:

Those kinds of little quiet moments that you can kinda sprinkle in throughout the

Jackie:

day, as often as you can and realize like all of the enrichment and all of this

Jackie:

stuff, doesn't have to come from you.

Jackie:

You can hire out, a dog Walker or get a friend, drop your dog off to another

Jackie:

dog friend's house, or have somebody come in and play with your cat while

Jackie:

you go do something, there are other things that you can do that don't.

Jackie:

Always mean that you have to be providing that for your animal.

Naomi:

That's a really good way to think about it, especially if you're

Naomi:

just you trying to outsource stuff.

Naomi:

When each animal has their own specific needs.

Naomi:

It's not fair to you to take that all on yourself.

Jackie:

Exactly.

Jackie:

Yeah.

Naomi:

And I really liked the idea of those quiet times.

Naomi:

So one thing that I always talk about at the beginning of all of my programs

Naomi:

is for, in order to create a good management plan, we have to identify that.

Naomi:

Where the sticky spots are in your daily routine, where it's like every

Naomi:

day when I try to go feed the dog, the cat comes also and everyone

Naomi:

freaks out, for example, right?

Naomi:

So we need to come up with a specific plan for those times to deal with

Naomi:

that, to smooth out that sticky spot.

Jackie:

Right.

Naomi:

But I think the flip side of that is often forgotten where it's every

Naomi:

day when I watched the news, my cat.

Naomi:

Would get so much out of it.

Naomi:

If he was able to come sit on my lap, how can I come up with

Naomi:

a plan to make that happen?

Naomi:

Is that the time where Arrow gets a bully stick?

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

Coming up with the ways to work, your not just physical management, but also just

Naomi:

routine adjustment and using enrichment activities as part of your more active

Naomi:

management plans to have everyone get what they need - quality over quantity.

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

In that way.

Naomi:

I think that's, I think that's a really great way to think of.

Naomi:

And also, I mean, the harsh reality is they won't be able to be with you all

Naomi:

the time, because they might have to be separated at least for some of the time.

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

So do you recommend for separation anxiety, pups?

Naomi:

I know a lot of people say you don't leave them alone until

Naomi:

they can handle being left alone.

Jackie:

Right.

Naomi:

And is that the same if you're home versus not home?

Jackie:

What do you mean by that?

Naomi:

So if a dog is.

Naomi:

Has separation anxiety and they freak out when you leave the house.

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

That's what we think of as separation anxiety, but if you need to have them

Naomi:

behind a baby gate, but what, if anything, is the difference in how you address that.

Jackie:

Gotcha.

Jackie:

Yeah, it's really depends on the dog.

Jackie:

So some dogs are fine with being on the other side of the baby gate

Jackie:

or being in a different part of the home and some dogs aren't.

Jackie:

So if the dog wasn't even.

Jackie:

Capable of being in a separate part of the home, you would have to add

Jackie:

that to the desensitization protocol in terms of also leaving the house.

Jackie:

Also being separated within the house at different times.

Jackie:

There's this - I took Julie Nate's.

Jackie:

Program.

Jackie:

And she talks about playing peek-a-boo where you hide around the corner.

Jackie:

You pop your head out, your dog can see you're there.

Jackie:

It's actually teaching object, permanence to dogs where it's like, Hey, I'm not

Jackie:

always in the same room and it's okay.

Jackie:

You could also do some mat training or some station behavior training.

Jackie:

And if they're comfortable laying on a mat or in their bed while they're

Jackie:

on the other side of the gate, even though they're not loving it, they're

Jackie:

like, okay, I know how to do this.

Jackie:

And nothing bad happens to me when I do this.

Jackie:

So, so this is something I can do while you're on the other side.

Naomi:

And so I think that's really important kind of adding in from what

Naomi:

I'm understanding, like mat train, like a relaxation protocol where

Naomi:

part of the distraction is you leave the room and then you come back.

Jackie:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Got it.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

That's actually, that's great because that is, I teach that relaxation

Naomi:

protocol S thing as part of this kind of uncued settle that I was talking about

Naomi:

before and the magical thing about.

Naomi:

I'm talking about relaxation protocol for people who don't know, it's

Naomi:

kind of a loosely based on Dr.

Naomi:

Karen overall's protocol for relaxation, which is literally like

Naomi:

15 pages of written out, sit for five seconds, sit while I clap my hands.

Naomi:

But the magic of that kind of structure is that you're able to think about what are.

Naomi:

Types of distractions, your animal needs to learn to be okay with, or not

Naomi:

necessarily distractions triggers, right?

Naomi:

You leaving.

Naomi:

And you can work that into the protocol.

Naomi:

So I have a protocol that's like cat, dog specific.

Naomi:

Like the behaviors the distractions are like trying to simulate the other

Naomi:

animal, moving around and stuff like that.

Jackie:

And flirt poles are great for that too.

Naomi:

Exactly.

Naomi:

Yeah, that's the last day it's like c n youa leave a

Naomi:

flirt pole that's moving away.

Naomi:

Everyone's my dog could never do that.

Naomi:

I'm like they will.

Naomi:

But you know, but the separation version includes coming back

Naomi:

for certain amounts of time.

Naomi:

So it's all variations on a theme that if you have different training

Naomi:

goals, you can probably work them all into that same structure.

Jackie:

Yes, absolutely.

Jackie:

Absolutely.

Jackie:

Yeah.

Jackie:

I'm a big fan of the relaxation protocol as well.

Jackie:

I always incorporated into the settle behavior too, because I think it's

Jackie:

a life skill dogs and cats, but dogs need to learn how to settle

Jackie:

with changes in the environment.

Jackie:

And that's exactly what that protocol gets you.

Naomi:

Yeah, for sure.

Naomi:

I will link to the PDF in the show notes for everyone.

Naomi:

That's like the original, the OG version and a lot of different trainers have their

Naomi:

own versions, but like I said, I have a cat dog specific one, which is pretty fun.

Naomi:

One of the distractions involves walking away while meowing.

Jackie:

That's great.

Naomi:

People are like, they're going to the dogs going to

Naomi:

know that you're not the cat.

Naomi:

I'm like, that's not the point.

Naomi:

It's not.

Naomi:

Exactly.

Naomi:

It's just something weird.

Naomi:

Cool.

Naomi:

So.

Naomi:

Is there anything that you feel like someone is thinking about adding

Naomi:

another species to their home?

Naomi:

Being good proactive animal guardians.

Naomi:

And they're trying to learn as much as possible.

Naomi:

What should they keep in mind as they're going through?

Jackie:

Right.

Jackie:

Well, consider your resident animal and do they want another species living there and

Jackie:

consider the animal you're bringing in?

Jackie:

Do they have any experience with, how are they.

Jackie:

How resilient do you think your animals are?

Jackie:

Do you think the potential adoption animal is because you're going to need fairly

Jackie:

resilient animals slow, be prepared to go slowly, think of how long you would

Jackie:

be willing to tolerate working on this.

Jackie:

And then probably double it and say, am I okay with that amount of time?

Jackie:

If it took that amount of time?

Jackie:

That'd be a deal breaker for me.

Jackie:

And of course, have your management plan in place before bringing the animal home.

Jackie:

If there's any way to introduce the animals, maybe at the shelter,

Jackie:

if that's a possibility, if you're thinking of bringing a cat in and you

Jackie:

have a dog maybe, but you know, that may or may not be indicated as well.

Jackie:

So that's how I would say.

Naomi:

I always love when people are proactive going to do this.

Naomi:

What are your tips?

Jackie:

So yes, it definitely reach out to a training or just in general

Jackie:

with now everybody's got wait lists.

Jackie:

So reach out to your potential trainers sooner than later, and say Hey, I'm

Jackie:

thinking of adopting this animal.

Jackie:

What do you think?

Jackie:

Would you be willing to watch video?

Jackie:

Would you be willing to kind of come over on day one and

Jackie:

help me through this for sure.

Naomi:

We love video.

Naomi:

Love us some good video.

Naomi:

I'm just so, I'm so happy that everyone has a video camera in their pocket.

Naomi:

Now it's just makes my life so much easier.

Naomi:

Your phone that video it's speed.

Jackie:

It's better than what you could describe because you might

Jackie:

not have the language or the words to tell us what you're seeing.

Jackie:

And then we can.

Jackie:

As it's reallyhappening.

Naomi:

Yeah, exactly.

Naomi:

So thank you, Jackie.

Naomi:

So, so much, I had a blast talking to you for anyone in the

Naomi:

Silverpring area slash the world because you do work online as well.

Naomi:

If people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that.

Jackie:

So my website behavior united.com, you can email me.

Jackie:

I'm jackie@behaviorunited.com.

Jackie:

Social media, Facebook and Instagram.

Jackie:

I'm @behaviorunited

Naomi:

SO easy.

Naomi:

I love when it's all the same and I will also I'll link to all of

Naomi:

that in the show notes as well.

Naomi:

Jackie you're fantastic.

Naomi:

Thank you so much for listening.

Naomi:

And if this episode helped you feel less alone in your struggles with your

Naomi:

cats and dogs, please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast on your

Naomi:

favorite podcast app, your support helps other cat and dog people find the

Naomi:

show and learn all about both species.

Naomi:

You can also follow me on Instagram @praiseworthypets.

Naomi:

I'd love to hear your suggestions, who I should interview.

Naomi:

And if your pets aren't getting along and you don't know where to start, I'm opening

Naomi:

up a new course in early 2022, that takes you step-by-step through the pet's process

Naomi:

from establishing your management plan through to training your core behaviors

Naomi:

and how to create setups that will take your pets from cranky to coexistent.

Naomi:

So go to praiseworthypets.com/ to get on the list and that's all for this

Naomi:

episode, you wonderful cat and dog people.

Naomi:

I will see you next week for more It's Training Cats and Dogs.

Naomi:

Thank you again, Jackie.

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9. Lost in Translation - Part One - with Lauren Rubin
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8. When "Let them work it out" Doesn't Work Out - Part Two - with Ran Courant Morgan
00:30:13
7. When "Let them work it out" Doesn't Work Out - Part One - With Ran Courant-Morgan
00:49:54
6. Coaching Call: Stress-free Setups with Elena
00:39:27
5. How to Train Your Cat with Linlin Cao
00:58:21
4. Meeting the Needs of a Suburban Herding Dog
00:19:15
3. Cat Enrichment Case Study: Piglet and Penny
00:10:02
2. Enrichment: What, why and how
00:11:42
1. Introducing a Puppy to Resident Cats with Olivia Healy
00:55:02
trailer It's Training Cats and Dogs!
00:00:57