Transcripts
We're partying through Vegas and we're in a stolen car.
Speaker A:Four pounds of heroin in the car.
Speaker A:It's like three in the morning.
Speaker A:I'm like, hey, bro.
Speaker A:Like, let me drive.
Speaker A:I end up flying outside the freeway, fall asleep, it flips.
Speaker A:I land on the hood.
Speaker A:There are the windshield sticking out of me.
Speaker A:I roll out.
Speaker A:There's stuff all over the freeway.
Speaker A:Drugs everywhere, everywhere.
Speaker A:And it's dark.
Speaker A:I have no idea where I'm at.
Speaker A:I run.
Speaker A:I run straight out.
Speaker A:I run in the barbed wire, pull the barbed wire on my.
Speaker A:On my chin.
Speaker A:I get to this truck stop and I sat in that truck for about three hours.
Speaker A:Knock, knock, knock.
Speaker A:Come out.
Speaker B:Oh, they had you in there.
Speaker B:They found you.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker B:You ready, bro?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, I'm excited, a little nervous, but, you know, I mean, it is what it is.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:We're just going to have a conversation.
Speaker B:I think this is going to be a great conversation for so many reasons.
Speaker B:One, obviously breaking a stigma of guys that have been in the system.
Speaker B:So I guess just an intro for you.
Speaker B:You started off gang banging at a pretty young age, and as a child, your mom ended up leaving you at a young age, left with your dad, which was evolved in and around that lifestyle, which obviously you get pulled into as a young kid.
Speaker B:You started, I think, doing juvie time in juvie around 12, 13 years old, and it kind of just started spiraling from there.
Speaker B:And then before you knew it, when you're an adult, you end up doing 16 years in the pen.
Speaker B:So you did five, six years out in California before getting transferred here to Idaho, which you finished out your time.
Speaker B:We've been connected through a good buddy of ours, mutual friend Vic, which has been on the.
Speaker B:On the episode, and we do a lot together.
Speaker B:We've met through some of our.
Speaker B:My Bam Nation meetups here in local community gatherings, and we've got to know each other.
Speaker B:And you got pretty.
Speaker B:A pretty incredible story from fallen into the system, getting put away for a pretty long time.
Speaker B:And instead of being the victim and blaming everybody else, and it's the system, it's the people, everyone's against me.
Speaker B:You actually took a probably pretty hard look internally and started bettering your life inside the system.
Speaker B:And now since being out, you're a board member of this incredible program called Rise, where you're actually connecting inmates, correctional officers, cos and some of the civilian side of this world that you were consumed in for 16 years.
Speaker B:And now you're bridging the gap between these two different worlds that have to live together.
Speaker B:And it's not always peaceful.
Speaker B:There's a lot of animosity of both sides between the correctional officer side and the inmate side.
Speaker B:And obviously I have a ton of questions with that because I feel our correctional facilities are, are built to keep you in there to, to absolutely make money off of our system and not rehabilitating prisoners or inmates, not giving them any of the resources and a lot of other things.
Speaker B:I think it's, it's a horrible system of how we have things set up.
Speaker B:I'm very vocal on that.
Speaker B:I, I feel that our, our prison systems are made to keep people in by getting them involved in gangs, the drugs, everything else.
Speaker B:There's worse on the inside of prisons than most people are dealing with on the outside.
Speaker B:And you find yourself getting just sucked gangs, drugs, whatever may be.
Speaker B:So we got a lot to break down in this episode, but I, it's.
Speaker B:This is going to be an incredible conversation because you have gone through so many different chapters and journeys of your life to get to this seat right now and now giving back to your community behind the walls and making a difference.
Speaker B:Because obviously you saw something there and somebody saw something in you at some point, gave you an opportunity.
Speaker B:And here you are now you're, you're leading these groups, you're dealing with wardens of these prisons, which I'm sure at one point I was public enemy number one for you.
Speaker B:And now here are dressed up, suited up, rubbing elbows with the higher echelon of these people, trying to connect a community and bridge this gap, like I said.
Speaker B:So before we get started, we're going to send you home with a fresh baked sourdough loaf from the Little Ones Bakery, the Sour Bee.
Speaker B:We try to send every guest home with a fresh loaf of bread.
Speaker A:I'm not sharing none with it, dude.
Speaker B:That's the only reason I felt like he wanted to roll today just to him get some bread because he always, he always, him and him and a couple others that have been on the show, they'll just roll by and be asking for bread.
Speaker B:So yeah, you get to go home with a fresh loaf.
Speaker B:And then I hooked you up, dude, with a.
Speaker B:This will be hilarious for you since we're about to dive into your story.
Speaker B:This is an active duty cop.
Speaker B:He's in, he started the God Fearing Lifting Club, one of my favorite apparel brands that I rep and I, I give military, law enforcement, small businesses opportunities to send us stuff and to give out to guests.
Speaker B:And so I'm going to send you home with that.
Speaker B:And then Chris, he's a local N vet.
Speaker B:He started linear.
Speaker B:He actually went through the whole seals training and right at the end got wounded or it got hurt and ended up getting dropped from it.
Speaker B:Kind of sent his life on a different path.
Speaker B:And now he started this, this apparel line and it's really high end, really great quality fitness apparel.
Speaker B:And so he's a local bubba.
Speaker B:He's been on the show.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I just want to send you home with some swag and then we're going to get you a fresh loaf of bread.
Speaker B:Actually, this is a fresh loaf of bread.
Speaker B:We usually have a prop up here that's been here for like a month actually.
Speaker B:It's been older.
Speaker B:And I dropped it the other day.
Speaker B:It exploded up here.
Speaker B:It was just like a giant crouton.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:But yeah, we're gonna get you going.
Speaker B:So let's jump into this.
Speaker B:Dude.
Speaker B:Who are you?
Speaker B:Where are you from?
Speaker A:My name is Michael.
Speaker A:Born and raised out of Long Beach, California.
Speaker A:Long boy, 35 years old.
Speaker A:My dad was from Long beach, mom was from Long beach growing up.
Speaker A:And dad and mom were never really together at a young age.
Speaker A:You know, I was a baby.
Speaker A:My dad went to prison right at that young age.
Speaker A:Went to prison.
Speaker A:Mom, mom took me, right?
Speaker A:She.
Speaker A:There's a story back then when he had went to prison, they, they had raided the house, right?
Speaker A:And I was still a baby.
Speaker A:And they.
Speaker A:Cops come in and they're going to take my mom to jail.
Speaker A:They're going to take my dad to jail.
Speaker A:And they're going through my mom's.
Speaker A:They're asking my mom, hey, what's going on back there?
Speaker A:And they were like, I don't know.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:And they look at this diary and the cops like, man, she really don't know what's going on.
Speaker B:You know, what was going on back there?
Speaker B:What was your dad doing?
Speaker A:Chop shop, cooking dope.
Speaker A:Doing, you know, doing what they do.
Speaker A:Right, okay.
Speaker A:And they put my mom inside the Jeep.
Speaker A:They put me in there and they help her jump start the jeep.
Speaker A:She takes off.
Speaker A:She never looks back.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker B:And you're a baby at this point.
Speaker A:I'm a baby at this point.
Speaker A:This isn't like these are stories that she holds on to.
Speaker A:I've hear from multiple people.
Speaker A:My mom is a Long beach girl.
Speaker A:She hasn't been in Long beach for years.
Speaker A:My mom's a Long beach girl, you know, and that story stuck with me forever.
Speaker A:You know, mom has been married to my stepfather for 35 or 33 years now.
Speaker A:I believe 32 years.
Speaker A:She's been she.
Speaker A:Since I've been a baby, she's been with my stepfather.
Speaker B:Oh, no shit.
Speaker A:So my stepfather was stationed in Long Beach.
Speaker A:Okay, right.
Speaker B:Military.
Speaker A:Military.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So he's from Pennsylvania.
Speaker A:He was stationed in Long Beach.
Speaker A:Obviously, I went with them, right.
Speaker A:And she met my stepdad.
Speaker A:They got married.
Speaker A:They've been married since.
Speaker A:And while I still have the naval station in Long beach, they live there.
Speaker A:Well, my dad got out of prison, like, obviously as a kid.
Speaker A:That's my dad.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I like, you know, you're not my dad.
Speaker A:This is my.
Speaker B:How long did he do before he got out, before you got recovered?
Speaker A:He would do two years here, two years there.
Speaker B:Oh, so you had some sort of a rapport with your dad growing up.
Speaker B:So that's what that draw was back to him.
Speaker B:So he'd go away, then come back out, and then now you.
Speaker B:You want right back into that 100.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And obviously that's my best friend growing up for sure.
Speaker A:You know, with dad, I could do whatever I want.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:My mom, structure.
Speaker A:Mom had rules, okay?
Speaker A:And not only that, she lives with.
Speaker A:She lives with a military man, right?
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Military man had rules, right?
Speaker A:And that at that age, as a kid, you don't want to hear that, right?
Speaker A:So I'm bucking back as a young.
Speaker A:At a young age for sure, you know?
Speaker A:But then they ended up moving from Long beach to San Diego, where they were stationed in San Diego.
Speaker A:So my stepdad was stationed in San Diego.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So they moved up, moved to San Diego.
Speaker A:My mom had my little brother, little sister, and I would go back and forth.
Speaker A:Every time my dad would go to jail, my mom would come give me, and I'll go to San Diego.
Speaker B:So that was your.
Speaker B:That's your childhood cycle.
Speaker B:So is your mom.
Speaker B:Is your mom at.
Speaker B:Now looking back at it, do you.
Speaker B:Was she almost trying to start a new life with the new family and then, hey, when your dad's out, he's all yours.
Speaker B:Or was she involved in everything?
Speaker A:She.
Speaker A:So, I mean, I love my mom to death.
Speaker A:We have a great relationship today.
Speaker B:Good.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:She.
Speaker A:She was building a life with him, and I was.
Speaker A:I was a shit stick.
Speaker A:Okay, Right.
Speaker A:Like, there was moments where growing up that I, I was hard to handle.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And so when they made that decision to finally.
Speaker A:So obviously as a kid, right, like, I played baseball, right.
Speaker A:I skateboarded.
Speaker A:I was that normal little kid growing in Long beach, right?
Speaker A:Like, you know, going.
Speaker A:But going back and forth, I was all in the sports.
Speaker A:My grades weren't Too, Too good.
Speaker A:Just because it was hard for me to focus in school, right?
Speaker A:But I would go back and forth, right?
Speaker A:And around my eighth grade year, my stepdad retired from the Navy, okay?
Speaker A:And when they retired from the Navy, they packed up everything, right?
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And at that point, they're like, hey, are you gonna come with us?
Speaker A:And my answer was no.
Speaker A:Like, I'm gonna stay, right?
Speaker A:I think that beat my mom up till today, because things could have been different, right?
Speaker B:So she gave you the option because.
Speaker A:There was never a court, like, even.
Speaker A:There was never my mom and my.
Speaker A:My dad made a decision like, wherever Michael wants to be, he can be okay.
Speaker A:And you chose your dad, right?
Speaker A:And that's.
Speaker A:And that's just how that was, right?
Speaker A:There was never, like, there was never a court case over me.
Speaker A:There was nothing like that.
Speaker A:So it was wherever I wanted to be.
Speaker A:That's where I would be.
Speaker A:So when they left to Pennsylvania, that was.
Speaker A:That's where my stepdad's from.
Speaker A:They moved back to his hometown.
Speaker A:I stayed with my dad, and I was in juvenile hall not even a year later, right?
Speaker B:Okay, so you're now 12, 13 years old.
Speaker B:What are the types of trouble you're getting into at 12 or 13 to get put?
Speaker B:You put in juvie?
Speaker A:So there was a little crew I was from.
Speaker A:We had created a crew because obviously my dad and all them are all.
Speaker A:All these.
Speaker A:They had all these little crews going on in my neighborhood, right?
Speaker A:And we idolize all these guys on Harley's and riding bikes.
Speaker A:So we had a little crew, right?
Speaker A:And it was a little.
Speaker A:It was like a little.
Speaker A:To this day, I have it all tattooed on me.
Speaker A:Sick life, right?
Speaker A:And all my homeboys had it, right?
Speaker A:We're just a little party crew.
Speaker A:But I think my first time I went to juvenile hall, I was probably 12.
Speaker A:Assault with deadly weapon, battery and burglary.
Speaker A:At 12, at the skate park, I was a skater.
Speaker A:My skateboard was.
Speaker A:My weapon, was my transportation.
Speaker A:It was you.
Speaker A:Me, I was a little fighter.
Speaker A:I was.
Speaker A:We would get drunk and, yeah, I had hit this guy over the head with a skateboard, robbed him.
Speaker A:And then they came to my school that next day, and I went to.
Speaker A:I ended up going to juvenile hall for assault, jelly weapon, battery, and burglary.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:At 12 years old, that didn't scare you?
Speaker A:It was just natural.
Speaker A:Like, that's out where I'm from.
Speaker A:Like, you grew up like that.
Speaker B:You're also watching your dad do this.
Speaker B:This cycle your whole entire life.
Speaker B:So it's probably not a drastic oh, my God, I'm in trouble.
Speaker B:My life's over.
Speaker B:You're just.
Speaker B:Okay, this is.
Speaker A:This is.
Speaker B:Well, I've watched my dad do it my whole entire life.
Speaker A:Well, in the neighborhood I grew up in.
Speaker A:It's a violent neighborhood.
Speaker A:Okay, right.
Speaker A:Like Long beach is a violent city.
Speaker A:Long beach is a.
Speaker A:A racial city, a violent city.
Speaker A:Like, you have everything where I live, right.
Speaker A:And then, like, you know, so at a young age, you're either a victim or a suspect.
Speaker B:And so naturally, you just get sucked into this.
Speaker B:So is your dad around a lot now that you're living with him?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:So dad.
Speaker A:Dad's.
Speaker A:My dad was my best friend, though.
Speaker A:You mean.
Speaker A:So dad.
Speaker A:Dad was that guy.
Speaker A:If I call him at two a morning, two in the morning, and me and my homeboys were, you know, in a.
Speaker A:In a rumble and we're taking off somewhere.
Speaker A:I called dad, dad showing up in the truck and we're all hopping in the back.
Speaker B:So with him in and out, obviously not just at home, did you find yourself because him obviously periods of life, of being absent, even though you love your dad, he just gone for a little bit, doing whatever he's doing.
Speaker B:Was the gang life the.
Speaker B:The brotherhood or that mentorship of older guys being around?
Speaker B:Is that kind of what sucked you into that?
Speaker A:Oh, 100.
Speaker A:So, I mean, there was.
Speaker A:So there was a moment, right, We.
Speaker A:I live.
Speaker A:We lived in long beach of 10th and Belmont.
Speaker A:And people that are going to watch this, they'll know, right?
Speaker A:And 10th and Belmont was a house that we lived in.
Speaker A:And my dad had this little.
Speaker A:We lived in an apartment upstairs.
Speaker A:And when you opened the cupboard, there was a hole, and you would go down the hole, right?
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And that was where, like, my dad out everybody, they'd be tattooing, slanging, dope, and I would always go down there.
Speaker A:Where did the hole go down?
Speaker A:So he built like a spot where the camera or the street, you know, I mean, like, oh, shit.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so I would sneak down there, you know, and all my dad's homeboys, they love me, right, Because I was very, you know, global.
Speaker A:I'm like, what's up?
Speaker A:What's up?
Speaker A:You know, Tattoos, what's up?
Speaker A:You know?
Speaker A:And my dad always be like, no, you know, like, I'm like, hey, all right.
Speaker A:So my dad.
Speaker A:My dad, at that.
Speaker A:At that point, he didn't want none of that for me for sure.
Speaker A:I mean, he was never flashing drugs in front of my face.
Speaker A:My dad never did that.
Speaker A:And that's one thing that I'll speak on tough he never wanted that for me.
Speaker A:But everyone around him, you mean.
Speaker A:So there was a moment, yeah, there was a moment where I, at a young age, I.
Speaker A:My dad was gone and one of his homeboys showed up and I was like, what's up?
Speaker A:When are you gonna let me hang out with you?
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:He's like, we'll get in the car.
Speaker A:I'm all cool, you know, and this is.
Speaker A:I'm probably 13 and probably not even that night.
Speaker A:I'm doing lines at dope, you know.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker A:And that's behind my dad's back for sure, you know, Obviously dad didn't want that and that.
Speaker A:And my dad was one of those guys.
Speaker A:We found out it would put hands on that dude, you know what I mean?
Speaker B:So you're just bouncing around now, are you?
Speaker B:Now you're getting accepted into with these older men and you're watching their lifestyle.
Speaker B:So now slinging dope, fighting out, just, just banging on the streets.
Speaker B:This is just life for you?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I'm going in and out of juvenile hall.
Speaker A:Like I grew up in a, in a, in a city where it's like, it's a very racial city.
Speaker A:When you.
Speaker A:So when you go to juvenile hall, where I'm from, right.
Speaker A:When you go to LA County Juvenile hall, what's that like?
Speaker A:You're the only.
Speaker A:You walk into that place, it's first off, they always say, if you can make an LA County Jail, you can make it anywhere.
Speaker A:I said, that's a lie.
Speaker A:If you can make it LA County Juvenile hall as a white boy, you can make it anywhere.
Speaker B:Why, what's so.
Speaker B:What's so tough about it for you?
Speaker A:You're a victim.
Speaker A:Are you 100%?
Speaker B:Are they just fights every day or.
Speaker A:You're the only white boy.
Speaker A:You hit a.
Speaker A:Don't you hit a.
Speaker A:You hit a section.
Speaker A:Every single individual in there is, is, is, is.
Speaker A:They're young, right.
Speaker A:And there's no rules.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And you're the only white boy in that place.
Speaker A:That's it.
Speaker A:There's not.
Speaker A:You'll be lucky to see another one.
Speaker A:No, when you get to prison, it's a little different.
Speaker A:You see plenty.
Speaker A:But LA County Juvenile Hall?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:So what's the deal?
Speaker B:What's a day in the life like running, Being in juvie in LA, LA County Juvenile hall at 13, 14 years.
Speaker A:Old, lots of wanting to take your shoes, Wanting to.
Speaker A:Locking legs or you mean who.
Speaker A:And when I say locking legs, like fighting, you mean, you mean like every single person wants to test you?
Speaker A:I Mean, like you're locking legs with everything.
Speaker A:And my last name was Nappy.
Speaker A:As a white boy, there's certain people don't like the name Nappy is not right.
Speaker A:Like, I had.
Speaker A:I had it rough.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And then you, obviously, you don't want to be a victim, right?
Speaker A:I never want to be a victim.
Speaker A:I'll tell you right now.
Speaker A:At it, at that age, like, yeah, I never really.
Speaker A:I've been fighting, but with weapons.
Speaker A:Like in there, you're fighting with your hands.
Speaker A:You're learning how to fight.
Speaker A:Constantly fighting, constantly fighting.
Speaker B:And that wasn't enough to.
Speaker B:For you to get out and be like, yeah, that I'm not going back.
Speaker A:No, because you get calluses, right?
Speaker A:And then you start to build.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:Then you start to build resentment and hate.
Speaker B:Do you build any street cred as you're going in and out with your boys, or is it not count in the juvenile world?
Speaker A:Well, I mean, you're getting out of jail and.
Speaker A:And people are like, you're in juvenile hall.
Speaker A:Cool.
Speaker A:Like, well, I was hanging out with older guys at that time, so they're like, oh, whatever.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So how long did that go on for?
Speaker A:I was in and out of juvenile hall my whole.
Speaker B:No shit?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, I mean.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So in LA you have Las Padrinos Juvenile hall, you have Central Juvenile hall, and then you have Sylmar.
Speaker A:So those are like your three county jails in LA county for.
Speaker A:For juvenile.
Speaker A:And then it goes to camps.
Speaker A:So then you have camps all over.
Speaker A:All over L. A.
Speaker B:What are the camps like?
Speaker A:So camps like your prison and you.
Speaker B:Did a bunch of camps?
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:What are they heavy doing?
Speaker A:So Camp Challenger is in Lancaster, California and is right next door to Lancaster State Prison.
Speaker A:So when you're out there, you're literally hearing the mini 14 go off at the prison.
Speaker A:And what they'll tell you is like, if you guys don't keep.
Speaker A:If you guys don't act right, like that's where you're gonna be.
Speaker A:And I'd always be like, I'll never be there.
Speaker A:I'll never end up there.
Speaker B:Is it now, looking back as an adult that you've gone through?
Speaker B:Started out in juvie, then worked to the juvenile camps, which are just a.
Speaker B:Another version of prison for kids.
Speaker B:Do you look back at it now and just, just think of it or look at it completely different of how they could be changing things or doing stuff differently?
Speaker B:I mean, if they're, if it's.
Speaker B:If all these kids are this bad, is that system helping them or what could we do to help these children that are just out of control?
Speaker A:Oh, 100.
Speaker A:I think that if I would have had, I don't know, like if I would had anybody come in there speaking some light, you mean, and speaking like.
Speaker A:I. I don't remember.
Speaker A:I don't recall at those moments anybody coming in and talking to us.
Speaker A:No, you know, I remember it was very.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's.
Speaker A:I just don't remember it.
Speaker A:You mean.
Speaker A:I, I think as time comes on, I think times are changing.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I really do believe that.
Speaker A:You mean back then, I believe they're like doing good.
Speaker A:And I could be totally wrong.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But like doing good nowadays is like actually cool.
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker B:Inside the system.
Speaker A:I just.
Speaker A:In general.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:In general, like with like the social media and everything and you see people doing good, but back then doing good wasn't like a really a thing.
Speaker A:You know, and obviously I'm not like super old.
Speaker A:I'm only 35 years old.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So like doing that, I mean, it wasn't like early 90s, I mean, where it really wasn't cool at all.
Speaker A:But I just don't recall.
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker A:In, in those moments, I don't recall anybody ever coming in and doing a sit down.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because who knows?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm looking at what I want to do and how I want to go make impact.
Speaker A:I feel like somebody could have made impact at that moment.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:And obviously not speaking now because I don't know if you've gone back into the juvenile side of things, but I mean, that's.
Speaker B:That what, that's kind of heartbreaking to look and see because there's not even, like you weren't even going through like scared straight programs.
Speaker B:You're just putting you in there and you're just doing your time.
Speaker B:And then as a kid you get released and then there's no, there's no corrections, there's no, hey, these are we're going to do to set you up.
Speaker B:Hey, this is how we deal with anger.
Speaker B:This is how we not get pulled into these gangs or how to get ourselves out of them.
Speaker B:None of that.
Speaker A:I've never, listen, I always, I always laugh about and speak about.
Speaker A:Like, I've never been to like a, a rehab or given classes.
Speaker A:Like anytime I do something, they throw the book.
Speaker A:And that's even.
Speaker A:That started at a young age.
Speaker A:At a young age they were like, I mean, I've been thrown in these places and have to adapt, you mean?
Speaker A:And no, you know, and like I said, growing up where I grew up, I Have a few friends, like, from my childhood have gone through what I've gone through.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, I have a few friends.
Speaker B:How many of them have made it out, though?
Speaker A:I have one right now that I've been.
Speaker A:Because obviously I'm here now in Boise.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So a lot of the conversations I'll have will be through FaceTime.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And it's crazy because I was a little.
Speaker A:I was the little guy at those.
Speaker A:In those moments, like, through my.
Speaker A:All my friends when I was growing up, they always had.
Speaker A:Like, I grew up on Eastside Long beach, so I grew up, like, all my friends that were white boys where I grew up, you know, like, they all grew up in nice neighborhoods.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I would go there.
Speaker A:That's where I would go.
Speaker A:But I would have to go back home where I grew up.
Speaker A:You know, I grew up off 10th Street, Long Beach.
Speaker A:Like, it's, you know, not.
Speaker A:Not very wealthy, you know, so.
Speaker A:But what I'm getting at is like, yeah, they were.
Speaker A:I was always a little guy.
Speaker A:I always had nothing, you know.
Speaker A:You know, I will always.
Speaker A:My clothes weren't that nice, you know, those type of things.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And now I have them, you know, since I've been home, looking at me for inspiration, writing me, tell me that I'm inspiration now.
Speaker A:I'm helping them.
Speaker A:So it's like, you know, it's.
Speaker A:The tables have turned a little bit.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But in a positive way.
Speaker B:Good.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And that's just through.
Speaker A:Like I said, just.
Speaker A:That's just from me posting on social media, which I don't have no idea what I'm doing on there.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I'm learning from.
Speaker A:From Vic, obviously.
Speaker A:Vic's, like, teaching me and.
Speaker A:And guiding me a little bit.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And, well, I have no idea what I'm doing on there.
Speaker A:I'm just posting stuff, trying to create videos.
Speaker A:But it's working because I have people reaching out to me, saying that are from my childhood and be like, man, like, I never would have thought, you know?
Speaker A:So I have a friend, my.
Speaker A:My friend Dylan.
Speaker A:He grew up like I did.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And he hits me up all the time, and he's.
Speaker A:He's doing good.
Speaker A:And he actually wants to come out here and see what this is all about, you know?
Speaker A:So, like, there are people that have gone through what I've gone through from my childhood.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Not even from, like, the.
Speaker A:The gang side, you mean, like my childhood childhood.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And they're doing it.
Speaker A:So, you know, if I could be inspiration at all, that's all I'm trying to do.
Speaker B:Right, yeah.
Speaker B:And it's such an incredible thing to do be.
Speaker B:To have people watch.
Speaker B:Well, having people watch you and reach out also motivates the hell out of you because there's going to be the times where you're like, man, am I even.
Speaker B:Am I even helping?
Speaker B:Is.
Speaker B:Is anybody even seeing any of it?
Speaker B:And then you'll get the random DM from some guy it's watched you for.
Speaker B:Since getting out or watched you as a child to going in, disappearing for a while, then now they're seeing your face again.
Speaker B:Seeing the success and everything that you're doing now, it's probably a pretty awesome feeling.
Speaker B:Helped motivate to keep doing what you're doing because, I mean, obviously whenever you start anything, it.
Speaker B:It's a grind.
Speaker B:It can be pretty lonely and frustrating.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, I'm sure that stuff helps a lot when it comes to being able to keep the mission going and keep you motivated.
Speaker A:Well, definitely.
Speaker A:I think that, well, people ask, like, why.
Speaker A:Why do we do these?
Speaker A:Or why do we go through the struggles or, you know, deal with people, you know?
Speaker A:You know, I had somebody the other day reach out and they were like, oh, like, you're good for me.
Speaker A:I'm like, no, that's not.
Speaker A:I'm.
Speaker A:I'm here.
Speaker A:I'll reach your hand.
Speaker A:But I saw, like, you mean, like, if you don't want it, then I can't.
Speaker A:I don't know what to say, but no one's.
Speaker A:I'm not saying I'm better than anything, but those moments where you feel like people are saying that those other moments are what.
Speaker A:Stack those wins for sure, to make sure you keep wanting to do it right.
Speaker A:So, yeah, 100.
Speaker B:So you do your stance through juvie, in and out, until obviously you become of a legal age, adult age.
Speaker B:What got you caught up at first?
Speaker A:What do you.
Speaker B:I guess.
Speaker B:I guess, yeah.
Speaker B:So what got you caught up from in and out of the system as a juvenile?
Speaker B:Obviously you didn't learn any of the lessons from 12, 13 to 18.
Speaker B:When was that, oh, moment that got you put away for a bit?
Speaker A:Well, my dad was actually already in prison.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:So my dad was in prison doing time, and I was out in Long beach by myself.
Speaker B:What age?
Speaker A:17.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:My dad's gone in prison, and obviously I was already.
Speaker A:I had transferred from the.
Speaker A:My old little click into something higher.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, as far as the gang, the gang lifestyle goes, I was already fantasizing and.
Speaker A:And idolizing other individuals that were, you know, that were doing.
Speaker A:Doing the thing.
Speaker A:And so I Think.
Speaker A:Not having my dad there and being.
Speaker A:Actually being my dad's always given me somewhere to stay mighty even if he's not there.
Speaker A:I've always had that, right?
Speaker A:My dad, that's one thing.
Speaker A:Like, he's gone now, Right?
Speaker A:Rest in peace.
Speaker A:But one thing my father has always done is make sure I had a roof over my head.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Make sure he was always there.
Speaker A:If I needed him, he was there, you know, and so that was one of those moments where he was gone.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And I'm out and I'm running the streets.
Speaker A:I'm getting high, you know, I mean, hanging out in circles that are not my age groups, right?
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:And we're his age groups.
Speaker A:These are all his.
Speaker A:These are his people.
Speaker A:Okay, Right.
Speaker A:Because now he's gone.
Speaker B:So you fell into his.
Speaker B:His group 100.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So I'm falling in these groups of people because he's gone.
Speaker A:There's no, you know, and so, yeah, getting high.
Speaker A:And I ended up going to prison the first time for armed robbery.
Speaker A:Okay, right.
Speaker A:With a gun enhancement.
Speaker B:How'd that go down?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I was young.
Speaker A:I seen this dude that I just didn't get along with, and I'm young, and I just wanted to show off a little bit.
Speaker A:And I went to the ATM machine.
Speaker A:He was at the ATM machine and put him at gunpoint and brought him at the ATM machine.
Speaker A:I get caught not even 10 minutes later.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:How?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like they had you.
Speaker A:I'm young, right?
Speaker A:So it wasn't even like, you know, I'm not a criminal.
Speaker A:I'm not a good criminal, I'll tell you that.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I've never been.
Speaker A:I've never gotten away.
Speaker A:I've never gotten away with anything.
Speaker B:There's a difference, right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I've never.
Speaker A:Never gotten away with anything.
Speaker A:Okay, so you mean, like, I wasn't trying to hide it.
Speaker A:It wasn't one of those things.
Speaker A:I was trying to do sneaky behavior, right?
Speaker A:Like when rob this dude.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And he ended up calling the cops right there.
Speaker A:And he knew exactly who I was.
Speaker A:Hey, Michael Nappy just robbed me at a gunpoint at the ATM machine.
Speaker A:And the part that.
Speaker A:That I.
Speaker A:That messes me up.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And this is sort of.
Speaker A:This has happened a few times.
Speaker A:I ended up getting somebody else wrapped up in it.
Speaker B:How?
Speaker A:Because somebody else was with me.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And it wasn't that he did it.
Speaker A:He's in the car with me for sure.
Speaker A:And I actually got that.
Speaker A:I actually had a moment where I got to speak with him the other day too, but he had just did seven years in Pelican Bay.
Speaker B:And now he's with you and you did this.
Speaker A:Yeah, he's with me.
Speaker A:He's in the car.
Speaker A:I'm out of the car.
Speaker A:So on camera, it looks like he's a part of it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I ended up getting arrested, you know, and I ended up getting sentenced.
Speaker A:And he wasn't gonna say, hey, well, I wasn't there.
Speaker A:You know, he's on camera.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:Him going to prison again.
Speaker A:So we have.
Speaker A:Going to prison together.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:And he looked me in my eyes, he said, we're gonna do.
Speaker A:We're gonna ride this together.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And it's one of those things.
Speaker A:It beats me up, like.
Speaker A:And at that moment, I think I was too young to really understand.
Speaker A:Like, I'm affecting people.
Speaker A:I'm not just affecting.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, I'm going to prison.
Speaker A:But I'm a.
Speaker A:You don't really realize, like, the people that you're truly affecting, like, family member, everybody that you're affecting.
Speaker A:And not only that, I. I affected that man and I affected his kids.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You know, you don't realize that, though, at 18 years old, that's a lot of.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You don't even.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:You're meant.
Speaker A:You're not even mentally there to truly understand what you're doing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Like, so that's also a crazy mindset.
Speaker B:That's something that I have not a hard time wrapping my head around.
Speaker B:I'll do it like my military boys, right?
Speaker B:If they call, hey, I got a berry butt.
Speaker B:Cool, I'm on my way.
Speaker B:No questions asked, I'm gonna help.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker B:But for a dude to be sitting in a car, I'd be like, that's got to be a hard one to swallow, knowing you just got out of Pelican Bay, you had nothing to do with this.
Speaker B:And now.
Speaker B:But the mindset of, yeah, hey, dude, we're going to do this together, that blows my mind of the loyalty inside the gang community that you're even just that friendship and mindset of that of you at that stage in your life that now he's going to catch.
Speaker B:How much time did he end up catching?
Speaker A:He had him do another seven.
Speaker B:So we did another seven years for just sitting in a car.
Speaker B:See, that's what.
Speaker B:That one's hard to wrap my head around.
Speaker B:Now, if I gotta hurt somebody from somebody touching one of my boys.
Speaker B:Kids or some.
Speaker B:Yeah, that.
Speaker B:That's a commitment I'm willing to take or my own children.
Speaker B:But for you to rob somebody and I'm sitting in the front seat.
Speaker B:Oh, man, that's.
Speaker B:That's a hard one.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I don't think I really understood it until, like, recently.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:You know, and he's rooting for me too.
Speaker A:Like, he seen me the other day and I was actually on FaceTime with him.
Speaker A:I got to introduce him to Vic, you know, And I'm like, hey.
Speaker A:He's like, man, like, I see you, bro.
Speaker A:Like, this is what makes all of it worth it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:When he said that to me, I'm like, oh, cool.
Speaker A:You know, it's good.
Speaker A:But, yeah, at that moment, I remember I was.
Speaker A:We were in the Long beach courthouse, right?
Speaker A:And we come on the bus from LA County Jail, and we're in the courthouse and he looks at me and we're going in there.
Speaker A:He goes, we're gonna do this together.
Speaker A:And I'm like.
Speaker A:And again, at that moment, you're not really, like, cool.
Speaker A:I'm a kid.
Speaker A:Like, all right, we're going to prison, you know?
Speaker A:But now I look back at it, I'm like, man, I just.
Speaker A:I put that man away for seven years.
Speaker B:How long did you end up getting?
Speaker A:I ended up getting five years at 85%.
Speaker B:Okay, so when you got that time in your first stint in the prison, were you already a gang affiliated or did you get pulled in while you were in there?
Speaker B:Oh, so you're already associated.
Speaker B:So when you're going in, do you already have people in there that already you're getting connected with immediately, or how does that work?
Speaker A:You're going to LA County Jail.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And again, LA County Jail is.
Speaker A:You walk into there, it's.
Speaker A:It's a whole nother.
Speaker A:Well, first off, going through booking takes you about six days.
Speaker A:You're sleeping on the ground for about.
Speaker B:Six days at LA County.
Speaker A:Mm.
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker A:It's overcrowded.
Speaker B:It's that bad?
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:You gotta realize the state of Idaho has, what, a million and a half people?
Speaker A:Louisiana county alone has 10 million people.
Speaker A:So think about that county jail, right?
Speaker B:Show.
Speaker A:So just getting to that, just getting through that, that, that going through booking takes that many days.
Speaker B:Walk me through booking.
Speaker A:You're coming, you're coming from LA County Jail.
Speaker A:I'm from Long Beach City Jail.
Speaker A:You get to LA County Jail, right?
Speaker A:You get there and you go through there and you go into a tank, and the tank has about.
Speaker A:You're in a small tank, nuts to butt, right in your boxers, right?
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And you're standing in that tank for a few hours, right?
Speaker A:Until you get moved to the next tank.
Speaker A:Then You're.
Speaker A:And you're sitting.
Speaker A:Then they'll give you in.
Speaker A:You'll shower, you'll do all that you'll get.
Speaker A:You get your fingerprints.
Speaker A:Then you're going to the next thing.
Speaker A:So then you come down this hallway.
Speaker A:Now you come down this hallway on the tanks, it says black Mexican.
Speaker A:Now it says black Southsider Paisa Whites.
Speaker B:Other would be the Samoans and Asians and stuff.
Speaker A:And you can.
Speaker A:You don't.
Speaker A:Right there, you're.
Speaker A:You're not saying, hey, look, the.
Speaker A:The cops are.
Speaker A:You're here, you're here, you're here.
Speaker A:You're going into your racist tank.
Speaker B:So they divide you guys by racism 100.
Speaker A:Okay, so you go into this tank, you're in this white tank, and it's.
Speaker A:It's full, right?
Speaker A:And you're in there with dudes who.
Speaker A:You're using toll paper as pillows.
Speaker A:And you're sleeping in there for about three days until.
Speaker A:Oh, until they find room for you, you know?
Speaker A:Until they.
Speaker A:Until they.
Speaker A:Until they find room for you.
Speaker B:Bro, that sounds miserable.
Speaker B:And then miserable.
Speaker A:And then when you get to where you're going.
Speaker A:I remember I rolled up to.
Speaker A:Where was it at?
Speaker A:What's it?
Speaker A:I think a 3,000 floor.
Speaker A:And there was a couple Mexicans and they.
Speaker A:They're, hey, homie, over here.
Speaker A:And that was the moment where I was like, I might look a little Mexican because they thought.
Speaker A:They thought I was a.
Speaker A:They thought I was one of their homies.
Speaker A:I'm like, no, I'm white.
Speaker A:They're like, oh, well, you're still over here.
Speaker A:Because there.
Speaker A:You mean, like, that's.
Speaker A:That's who we run.
Speaker A:That's, you know, it's the black side and you got the white Mexican side.
Speaker B:Oh, no.
Speaker A:You know, and they're about one white boy to every few hundred Mexicans.
Speaker B:I didn't know that the Mexicans and the whites were kind of commingled in.
Speaker B:In certain prisons like that.
Speaker B:I thought if it was there was hard lines drawn.
Speaker A:Oh, no, we share.
Speaker A:We share the same side of the day room.
Speaker A:We should.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker B:That's interesting.
Speaker B:How does that feel, I guess, going in there knowing obviously you're rolling with the.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:The brotherhood at this point.
Speaker B:Did you know that's what it was like going in there, or was that kind of weird?
Speaker B:And you had to.
Speaker B:You had to learn that.
Speaker B:That you guys were cool.
Speaker B:Now are you guys cool?
Speaker B:The Mexicans and the whites co.
Speaker B:Mingle in the.
Speaker B:Is there still some lines divided there or if it pops off with the blacks and Mexicans, the whiters are backing it or you letting them take care of that.
Speaker B:How does that work?
Speaker A:Although those are our partners.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, obviously everywhere you go, there's things that for sure that none of us know.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And as, I mean, some of it's none of my business, you mean.
Speaker A:But I mean, I'll be straight.
Speaker A:I, I get along with Mexicans sometimes better than I do white guys.
Speaker A:Just because I grew up.
Speaker A:That's how I grew up for sure, you know, so.
Speaker A:Well, yeah, we run the same type of program.
Speaker A:We're up early.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That's where that discipline, that structure comes from.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like that I use even today in my everyday life, you know, up at 4 o' clock in the morning, right.
Speaker A:We're clean.
Speaker A:You know, if your stuff's not on point, like, you know, you're being addressed.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We, it's, it goes hand in hand, you know, so, you know, not everyone's like that.
Speaker B:Is that hard to deal with?
Speaker B:When let's say you are an inmate on the inside and you have this routine, a structure, you're trying to live somewhat of a controlled life inside the walls.
Speaker B:Do you guys have a hard time commingling with guys that just are just in there being the victim and what was me?
Speaker B:And they just go about their life.
Speaker B:Do you guys try to separate yourselves or is it just everybody have to live together like that?
Speaker A:Well, I mean, I think that in California when I was there, it was a little different.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker A:Because any white dude that comes to your tears is your responsibility.
Speaker A:You see a white guy there, you're like giving him a hug.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Because it's ghost.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's that bad, huh?
Speaker A:Well, and, but it's still our responsibility.
Speaker A:It means there, it's very, you know, you don't, you don't see many.
Speaker A:So like if you're on the yard and a white guy comes, no matter what it is, you receive your responsibility.
Speaker A:So I think there at that, that type of deal, like.
Speaker A:And not everyone is clean.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And everybody's running the same program as you.
Speaker A:But there you have no choice.
Speaker A:This is what it is.
Speaker A:This is what we're doing.
Speaker A:This is how we fall in line.
Speaker A:Either get with the program or the program gets with you.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So that's one of my biggest problems that I have as a civilian, looking into the, the prison system.
Speaker B:Let's say, let's say I am not a gang affiliate.
Speaker B:I just fuck up and end up in prison.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Whatever that may be.
Speaker B:I'm sure you've heard million Scenarios if, let's say, old Bam here ends up inside of prison, and I don't want to gang affiliate with anybody or associate with anybody.
Speaker B:Is that even possible?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Here in the state of Idaho.
Speaker B:Not in California, though.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:Why is that a problem, too?
Speaker A:Because, I mean, if you're.
Speaker A:If you're.
Speaker A:If you're a white boy, we need you.
Speaker A:I mean, that's.
Speaker A:You mean, like, that's.
Speaker A:That's how.
Speaker A:That's how it is.
Speaker B:Okay, so what happens if a white dude comes in and they don't want anything to do with any of it?
Speaker B:They're on their own.
Speaker A:There's no such thing as being on.
Speaker B:Your own in prison.
Speaker A:Non calvary.
Speaker B:How then.
Speaker B:So you're 100% getting pulled into a group.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You're part of the.
Speaker A:You're part of the group.
Speaker B:What happens if they fight it and then they get checked?
Speaker A:Pretty much.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:I mean, that's just the way it is.
Speaker A:That's just.
Speaker A:That's just the way it's been that way for hundreds of years, for sure.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And there's rules and there's things obviously, that, like, That I don't even know about you.
Speaker A:I mean, that.
Speaker B:It's just the way.
Speaker A:It's just the way it is.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And to be straight up with you, like, I'm blessed that, you know, fast forwarding into Idaho, like, when I did get arrested, I'm super blessed that I didn't go back to prison in California, because I would not be sitting here with you.
Speaker A:I would not be sitting right here with you if that was the case.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And when we get to that point, I'll share, like.
Speaker A:Yeah, there's.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:Sometimes you're stuck in an illusion when you're there.
Speaker B:In the California one.
Speaker A:Yeah, in California.
Speaker A:I think California in general, I love where I'm from.
Speaker A:I love Long Beach.
Speaker A:It's a beautiful city.
Speaker A:But I feel like my whole life growing up there, I lived in an illusion.
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker B:What makes you think it was the illusion?
Speaker A:I was doing things and for things and people that I never.
Speaker A:I would never even.
Speaker A:I was reading books and idolizing individuals that are dead, and I'm doing things for these people who are dead.
Speaker A:I'll never even meet.
Speaker A:I'm idolizing these.
Speaker A:This philosophy and this lifestyle.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And for people that you'll never even meet.
Speaker B:Are you talking.
Speaker B:You're idolizing previous gang members or dudes in prison or people on the outside?
Speaker A:Previous gang members.
Speaker A:Gang members that you'll never meet.
Speaker A:You'll never See, this is Adolf Hitler, right?
Speaker A:Like, I'm doing things right.
Speaker A:I'm idolizing.
Speaker A:I'm doing these things for Adolf Hitler.
Speaker A:Really?
Speaker A:So that's an illusion to me for sure.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You know, like, if you would ask me a few years ago who I looked to as a leader, I could give you only negative.
Speaker A:I can only give you people from that lifestyle.
Speaker A:I can never.
Speaker A:I couldn't even give you right.
Speaker A:Today, that's changed.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so I think that was a.
Speaker B:Big part for me with that lifestyle.
Speaker B:These are just dudes that are almost.
Speaker B:I don't want to say royalty, but, you know, you drop obviously hidden.
Speaker B:And there's a lot of other guys in that realm.
Speaker B:So once you get into the system, these are like your idols inside these in.
Speaker B:In the.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:The Aryan side of things.
Speaker B:And this is what you guys are all trying to work for, represent and keep pure and all that.
Speaker B:I mean, are you completely bought into this at this point?
Speaker A:Yeah, but I think mine.
Speaker A:I think the way I grew up.
Speaker A:I grew up on the east side, Long beach, so our.
Speaker A:I mean, I'll be like, the way I grew up.
Speaker A:We're not like your.
Speaker A:I wasn't like your normal person.
Speaker A:You see on National Geographic.
Speaker A:Like, we were gang.
Speaker A:Like, we're from the neighborhood, we're from the hood.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:So, like, any white boy where I'm from that has, like, the tattoos we have, like, we were gang members.
Speaker A:You mean, we.
Speaker A:We move different, right?
Speaker A:Like, we.
Speaker A:We have our dickies are creased up.
Speaker A:We're wearing Chucks long socks.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:You know, Ben Davis shirts.
Speaker A:And we're white boys.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, like, that was just the way we.
Speaker A:It's the culture.
Speaker A:I speak on culture a lot, for sure.
Speaker A:And I think coming here, actually, I never even realized that I got to go to Caldwell the other day, right?
Speaker A:And like, I didn't even know that was a thing.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:But I really didn't.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, because I've only been here in Boise, right?
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:And so going into Caldwell, like, it's a real culture thing, right?
Speaker A:And like, to me, it opened my eyes a little bit.
Speaker A:I didn't know Idaho even had anything.
Speaker B:Like that culture flavor.
Speaker A:Well, yeah, like.
Speaker A:And so, because I met a lot of dudes in prison here that were like, oh, like, this is how it is where I'm from, Caldwell.
Speaker A:And I'm like, okay, sure, right?
Speaker A:Like, can't be like that in Idaho.
Speaker A:Well, going there, I really.
Speaker A:I opened my eyes a little bit.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I like culture.
Speaker A:I like being Able to go places where there's a.
Speaker A:Where there's a deep culture root somewhere.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So, like, where I'm from, it's like that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, and so I think that that's how it is with my homies.
Speaker A:We're from.
Speaker A:We have a lot of culture to us.
Speaker B:What was one of the worst fights you got into in.
Speaker B:In California?
Speaker A:I think the.
Speaker A:The last one where I went to, I ended up going to Corcoran Shoe.
Speaker A:I was in High Desert State Prison.
Speaker A:I was a high desert prison on a level 4, 180.
Speaker A:So level 4, 180 is.
Speaker A:I got there.
Speaker A:I was actually out of state in Arizona.
Speaker A:I was in Arizona.
Speaker A:We ended up having a big old little shindig.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I'm getting this tattoo on top of my head at 18 years old, when mom said, don't get no tattoos on your face or your neck, I was like, all right.
Speaker A:So I did the head.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:And then I sent her a picture, and in the picture, I leaned my head back just a little bit so she couldn't see the head tattoo, and she's like, man, I think I see something on top of your head.
Speaker A:Like, what is it?
Speaker A:It's nothing.
Speaker A:It's nothing, you know?
Speaker A:But, yeah, it's one of my biggest insecurities today, having this tattoo.
Speaker A:And the reason.
Speaker A:There was a reason behind it is just because when you're out here and you're doing the things I'm trying to do, for sure.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:And, like, yes, it's as a part of my past, but, like, I've been in some rooms with some people that.
Speaker A:Where I'm trying to be professional.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And the first thing they do is they look at the top of the head and they're like, what is that?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, I guess rocking that, you're.
Speaker B:It draws a hard line.
Speaker A:Well, I mean, I have a lot of them in my body.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But I think presentation is everything.
Speaker A:First impression is everything.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I know tattoos are a thing out here.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, everybody has tattoos now, but some of that are offensive right off the back.
Speaker A:I don't want to.
Speaker A:I'm not trying to give that type of impression.
Speaker A:I like it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Is it?
Speaker B:Well, okay, so on that, real quick, I want to get back to the.
Speaker B:The, like, a big altercation you've been in, going to prison and having obviously a swazi blasted on your head.
Speaker B:Does that make you a target to who everybody else is?
Speaker A:Not white.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:Does that state make a statement?
Speaker A:Prison's really not like, that like this doesn't.
Speaker B:I mean because you're walking into the blacks and Mexicans, everybody else are repping their.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah, they just, just, they do them, we do us and then there's a respect.
Speaker B:So that's more frowned upon on this on the civilian side, on the outside.
Speaker A:World, 100 and people in prison, this is, it's natural.
Speaker A:You'll see people with cultural tattoos, you know, Aztec stuff.
Speaker A:You'll see blacks with, with their stuff and, and so, and they'll see us with us.
Speaker A:To them it's, it's, it's just as natural.
Speaker A:But yeah, out here is more of a, you know, shock and awe for.
Speaker B:These people because have you had any run ins with anybody on the outside world when they saw that?
Speaker B:They automatically.
Speaker B:They have beef with it or is it just one of those respect.
Speaker A:No, I only, I haven't had.
Speaker A:I've been out 60, I've been out like 70 days.
Speaker A:Yeah, I've been out of prison 70 days after 10 years straight.
Speaker A:I don't think that was one of my biggest worries and insecurities.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:While I was in prison.
Speaker A:I was like, man, I wonder how this is going to work.
Speaker A:I wonder how people are going to take me.
Speaker A:But I'm.
Speaker A:Once you learn how to be confident in yourself, I think, I think it's one of my biggest roadblocks I have to overcome when I meet somebody.
Speaker A:But I guess that's what, you know, so obviously my character and my personality, right.
Speaker A:Like I feel like I'm a step behind everybody else when I meet somebody because of them.
Speaker A:But once somebody hears me talking and once they get to know me, those are out the window.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:You know, because I've sat, I've, I've sat with every, every race since I've been out, you know, and I've talked to, you know, I was with you and I'm as your thing.
Speaker A:I was smoking a cigar with a Meridian police officer and that was one.
Speaker B:Of the coolest moments because I'm sitting there looking at you and Vic.
Speaker B:These two dudes are just look like the hardest dudes in the room.
Speaker B:You know, obviously doing some time.
Speaker B:And then I look at who you're sitting with and you're sitting with an active duty Meridian police officer and you guys were laughing and swapping stories and being able to bond and connect.
Speaker B:So I guess with that is.
Speaker A:A.
Speaker B:Lot of people represent that tattoo with pure hate.
Speaker B:Do you hate people these days?
Speaker B:Just a chapter of your life, huh?
Speaker B:Something you represented then?
Speaker B:Because it's a, it's A lot of people want to judge.
Speaker B:And I look at somebody like you and it's like, okay, you're out here trying to make a difference and bring people together.
Speaker B:But obviously with the world it is, and especially now with everything the way it is and everybody's so sensitive.
Speaker B:I, I, I, like, I wanted to ask that because it's an immediate stigma that we want to put on somebody that's either branded themselves, tatted them, whatever it may be, is something that used to represent them, but now that's all they're going to want to focus on is out realizing who you are, who you've grown into, who you've become, and the lives that you're changing and the work that you're doing.
Speaker B:So it's pretty incredible thing.
Speaker B:But I mean, it just sucks going back to image and that.
Speaker A:Like I said, I think that's one of the biggest things, like being able to overcome those moments.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like, I feel like I'm a, like I said, when I, when I meet somebody, okay, like, how am I gonna overcome this and how am I gonna present even like with my new job, like, I'm doing door to door sales on this new job, like, okay, I have to, when I got a big old beard, there are these tattoos.
Speaker A:How am I gonna present myself when I answer this door?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So like I said, I think once someone gets to know me, I think it changes that and it changes the perception of me and the, so that's something I'm working on.
Speaker A:But yeah, it's definitely.
Speaker A:But like going back to that, you asked what biggest fight, what was one.
Speaker B:Of the biggest altercations you got into in, in California?
Speaker A:Well, I've been in some big ass, some big riots.
Speaker A:Have you?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:What's it like being in a riot in prison?
Speaker A:Scary as hell.
Speaker B:How, what's that like, how's it going down?
Speaker A:I mean, you don't really, you don't know, you don't know what's going on till it's done.
Speaker B:It's just reaction or what he's on.
Speaker A:Yeah, until it's done.
Speaker A:Once it's done, you're like, what just happened?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And as you look around you and you're like, oh, this is a mess.
Speaker B:Walk me through a riot.
Speaker A:You've been in Arizona, Ten white boys, 70 blacks.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker A:Three paisos.
Speaker A:Southsiders are on lockdown.
Speaker A:So there they just, in California, if they just do, if you're, they don't lock everybody down.
Speaker A:If the south sides are acting up, there's lock them down.
Speaker A:Lock them down and they'll let.
Speaker A:And everybody else will be on program because everybody.
Speaker A:You don't sell up with anybody.
Speaker A:That's not your race.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Or it's not.
Speaker A:You know, so that happened.
Speaker A:We did good for, like, the first two minutes.
Speaker A:After that, we were victims.
Speaker B:I mean, what do you do in this scenario?
Speaker A:Just now, you just close your eyes and go.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And just swing it for the fences.
Speaker A:Close your eyes and go.
Speaker A:That's it.
Speaker A:Oh, I mean, there's no.
Speaker A:There's really no.
Speaker A:I mean, I could go into detail in it, but it gets a little, you know, I want the details in it.
Speaker A:Are you cool with sharing them?
Speaker A:I don't think so.
Speaker A:Okay, that's fine.
Speaker A:But I think just.
Speaker A:Just knowing that, you mean.
Speaker A:Yeah, the adrenaline after one of those.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And knowing that, like, there's shots being fired, people's kneecaps getting taken out.
Speaker A:Not by us, by.
Speaker A:Stat.
Speaker A:By the cops.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So in a riot, are you more worried about the other inmates in the fight or are you worried about the COs?
Speaker A:You're not even thinking about the CEOs.
Speaker B:You're not?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:Because you don't know what everybody has on the.
Speaker B:On the.
Speaker B:On the yard out there.
Speaker A:If.
Speaker A:Unless you.
Speaker A:Unless you're good with your mind and you're.
Speaker A:I mean, I guess as a warrior, you're probably better at analyzing stuff like that, but when you're.
Speaker A:When you hit the battle, like, you're just zoned in on one thing and.
Speaker A:And when other things are happening, that's the least of your worries.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:When you're in the gladiator pit fighting for your life, I'm sure you don't, but.
Speaker B:Because I've had COs on where they're talking about, like, when things would pop off, they just start.
Speaker A:There's, oh, 100.
Speaker B:They're shooting everybody with everything they have.
Speaker A:100.
Speaker A:In California.
Speaker A:It says warning.
Speaker A:No warning shots.
Speaker A:Oh, no.
Speaker A:On the walls.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that's not in the back of your head where you're down there just fighting for survival.
Speaker A:You're like, this is warning.
Speaker A:No warning shots.
Speaker A:You're like, okay, no.
Speaker B:So you do five years in California, and that was just your stint.
Speaker B:You got out and stayed in California or did you get transferred here?
Speaker A:No, I got out.
Speaker A:I pro from.
Speaker A:So I pro from the shoe.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A: ,: Speaker A:And when I left there, I was living that lifestyle.
Speaker A:When I left there, I'll tell you, I knew I was going back to prison.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I left Corcoran Shoe.
Speaker A:I Mean, like, I was Corcoran shoe.
Speaker A:So segregated housing unit.
Speaker B:What's.
Speaker B:What's that like being a segregation housing unit?
Speaker A:I mean, if you make it there, you feel like you're the dog.
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker A:That's where all the legends are at.
Speaker B:That's the status you want to get to.
Speaker A:I mean, back then.
Speaker A:You mean now that they.
Speaker A:They reduce.
Speaker A:They've reduced segregation by 85 in California.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So a lot of those guys are now out of the shoe.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But, yeah, I mean, if you make it there, you know, you've done something.
Speaker B:What's.
Speaker B:I mean, what's it like getting.
Speaker B:What's segregation like, and what's it do to your mind?
Speaker A:So these have.
Speaker A:Back then, they used to have a thing called in.
Speaker A:In California, it was debrief or die.
Speaker A:So once you got validated as an associate of the big homies.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Once you got validated, you would be back there for the rest of your life.
Speaker B:What do you mean by that?
Speaker A:If you had life in prison for however long you had in prison.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Once you got validated, you were stuck back there for the rest of your life.
Speaker B:I guess I'm not tracking that one.
Speaker B:What?
Speaker B:Validated by who?
Speaker A:By the.
Speaker A:By the so.
Speaker A:By staff.
Speaker A:By so.
Speaker A:By administration.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:If you're a associate of one of the.
Speaker A:The bigger gangs.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You get validated, they don't want you on the yard.
Speaker B:Oh, oh.
Speaker B:So once you're labeled.
Speaker A:Yeah, so they changed that now, but back then, it used to be debrief or die.
Speaker A:So you would have to debrief.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Or you would die back there.
Speaker B:What do you mean by debrief?
Speaker B:You'd have to wrap.
Speaker A:Giving out.
Speaker A:Give up the goods.
Speaker B:Oh, which you're not obviously doing inside of there.
Speaker A:No one percent.
Speaker A:Like, I've never.
Speaker A:You mean this is.
Speaker A:I live there.
Speaker A:People think, oh, because you live this lifestyle, you're doing good people.
Speaker A:Oh, never once.
Speaker A:I mean, even in that moment, like, no, I pro from there.
Speaker A:I mean, I pro from cork and shoe.
Speaker A:Obviously, I didn't have life.
Speaker A:I had life.
Speaker A:I had to stay back there.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:I was there.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:When I paroled.
Speaker A:I paroled at my.
Speaker A:I had a big homie as a celly, and when I left there, I was like, all right, I'm gonna go meet the guys I need to meet.
Speaker A:I got out, and I went straight to it.
Speaker B:Oh, right.
Speaker B:Back into it, huh?
Speaker B:So with that site, obviously, your mind isn't even remotely close to where you are now.
Speaker B:Do you look back on that time after getting that now you finally paroled, you've gone through all the.
Speaker B:You've gone through.
Speaker B:You get a little bit of freedom.
Speaker B:Is it crazy to look back on now and looking at your mind, your thought process then, because you already knew you were going back in.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, my.
Speaker A:So my pro officer picked me up from.
Speaker A:From prison.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Is that normal?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:That was because I Pro from the shoe.
Speaker A:So his name was Osborne.
Speaker A:He was.
Speaker A:So he picks me up and he's like.
Speaker A:He rolls in there and he's wearing this badge, and it says Orange County.
Speaker A:I'm like, hey.
Speaker A:I was like, I'm.
Speaker A:I'm from la.
Speaker A:He's like, well, you're.
Speaker A:You're going to Orange County.
Speaker A:I'm like, no, I'm not.
Speaker A:And I was like, I'm from la.
Speaker A:Like, I'm gonna go.
Speaker A:I'm like.
Speaker A:Because I know the difference.
Speaker A:I am like.
Speaker A:He says, no.
Speaker A:Like, you're gonna be.
Speaker A:You know, you'll be just fine.
Speaker A:You could be in Long beach and.
Speaker A:And be on Orange county parole.
Speaker A:I'm like.
Speaker A:So he drives me back to his office.
Speaker A:I get to his office, and we go through it.
Speaker A:Pictures, right?
Speaker A:All my, you know, and now, you know, I got all these, you know, political tattoos.
Speaker A:And I go through that, and he goes, hey, I'm gonna drive you to your house and drop you off.
Speaker A:I'm like, cool.
Speaker A:So he drives me to Long beach, and we get to my house, right?
Speaker A:And my.
Speaker A:My dad lives in the heart at that moment, of Cambodia Town.
Speaker A:Okay, right?
Speaker A:PCH and Walnut.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:This is Cambodia Town.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And he's driving me up.
Speaker A:He goes, this is where you live?
Speaker A:I'm all, yeah, are you gonna be okay?
Speaker A:I'm like, I'll be just fine.
Speaker B:He must be new here.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm gonna be just fine.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:They know me very well around here.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:Because he knows the tattoos I have.
Speaker A:He's like, I don't know about this, you know?
Speaker A:I'm like, yeah, I'm fine.
Speaker A:Don't trip.
Speaker A:And so to answer your question, like, mentally, like, I truly beat myself over that.
Speaker A:I think back to that day.
Speaker A:I remember I told my dad, hey, we're gonna hang out all night.
Speaker A:And, like, he's all, cool, cool.
Speaker A:That night I was gone, I was already out running the streets.
Speaker B:That quick.
Speaker A:My husband picked me up, right?
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Is it crazy to think it's something that blows my mind of how quick guys that get released from the system get sucked right back into their old ways with it?
Speaker B:I mean, you're Saying, you're talking hours, you're right back to banging again.
Speaker A:So I remember I was out at that time.
Speaker A:I was out two weeks, and then I ended up catching.
Speaker A:I ended up catching.
Speaker A:I ended up getting arrested.
Speaker A:So I ended up calling my dad.
Speaker A:I got.
Speaker A:That night I had got in an altercation with somebody, right?
Speaker A:And it got bad, right?
Speaker A:After two weeks of being out.
Speaker A:This was December 23rd or something like that, right before Christmas.
Speaker A:All right?
Speaker A:I've been out two weeks of prison after just doing all that time.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And someone calls me.
Speaker A:They're like, hey.
Speaker A:Like, dude's in the hospital.
Speaker A:This is what's going on.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, bad.
Speaker A:They're.
Speaker A:They know it's you.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:So I called my dad.
Speaker A:I said, dad, this was going on.
Speaker A:Dad's like, well, get rid of your shoes.
Speaker A:Get rid of everything and meet me at this spot.
Speaker A:I'm like, all right.
Speaker A:So I end up meeting about.
Speaker A:I'm in the garage at my house, and a couple days go by, I'm hanging out in my garage.
Speaker A:I come walking out in the morning.
Speaker A:I get out to the street, I get in this car, we drive off, and I looked over.
Speaker A:I told the guy that picked me up, I said, hey, just so you're aware, we're probably gonna get pulled over.
Speaker A:Here's why.
Speaker A:I said, you don't see, like, the five expeditions behind us.
Speaker A:He what?
Speaker A:Said there's five expeditions behind us.
Speaker A:Soon as I get over, PCH Pacific goes highway.
Speaker A:They come from all.
Speaker A:They come out the trees on me.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:They come out of the trees on me, and I end up getting arrested.
Speaker A:That was a serious bodily injury on somebody with great body or with.
Speaker A:I forget what it was.
Speaker A:I forgot.
Speaker A:Anyways, in California, they don't take you to court in 72 hours.
Speaker A:They have to drop the charges.
Speaker A:So, yeah, so they dropped the chart.
Speaker A:I'm in Long Beach City Jail.
Speaker A:They dropped the charges in 72 hours, right?
Speaker A:And they sent me to LA County Jail because I was on parole still.
Speaker A:So then my parole officer comes.
Speaker A:He's like, man.
Speaker A:He was like, you know, I told you.
Speaker A:I told you two things.
Speaker A:I said, what was that?
Speaker A:He goes, I told you, no shooting up on dope and don't be shooting at nobody or beating anybody up.
Speaker A:And you did one of them.
Speaker A:I'm like, well, he's like, I'm gonna continue on.
Speaker A:I'm like, I'm gonna continue on parole.
Speaker A:So that's called cop in California.
Speaker A:Continue on parole.
Speaker A:So I continued on parole.
Speaker B:So you got lucky.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You let me out, right?
Speaker A:And I went back to my house because my dad lives with my dad's girlfriend's mom, okay?
Speaker A:And it was Gene, old Scottish lady.
Speaker A:And God bless her soul, right?
Speaker A:I love her.
Speaker A:She loved me, okay?
Speaker A:But at that moment, she was like, yeah, Michael can't be staying here.
Speaker A:He's the loose cannon, you know?
Speaker A:And so I didn't get to go back there.
Speaker A:So I called one of my homeboys and say, hey, like, I need somewhere to go.
Speaker A:And from there, it was instantly bad after that.
Speaker A:So I go to the house to get there, and from there, I was running a gun in.
Speaker A:Selling dope.
Speaker A:You mean?
Speaker B:Are you using at this point?
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:At that point.
Speaker A:From that point, from that day on.
Speaker B:Oh, really?
Speaker B:What were you using?
Speaker B:What was your drug of choice?
Speaker A:Meth.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:How'd you get introduced to meth?
Speaker A:Stealing it from my dad.
Speaker B:No, what was it like?
Speaker B:Trying meth for the first time?
Speaker A:I remember when we were young, I'm talking about, like, 13, 14.
Speaker A:We would do it in there, and me and my homeboys, we would just.
Speaker A:We would walk all Long beach and just steal.
Speaker A:Walk the strip, walk the streets, find people to fight and.
Speaker A:And steal.
Speaker B:Like, it was at 13, 14 on meth.
Speaker B:That's insane to me.
Speaker A:That is wild.
Speaker A:And, yeah, we.
Speaker A:I used to steal it.
Speaker A:I remember I used to steal it on my dad.
Speaker A:My dad had these shoes.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:I remember he used to put it in his tongue.
Speaker A:And my homeboys knew.
Speaker A:Everybody knew.
Speaker A:My dad, you mean?
Speaker A:And he would go.
Speaker A:And I was going there.
Speaker A:My dad had these days where he falls asleep for, like, five days still, though.
Speaker B:Anyway, you ever knew you were stealing his meth?
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:My dad, he.
Speaker A:My dad, I love him to death, you know?
Speaker A:I mean, he.
Speaker A:That's my dad.
Speaker A:My dad, he.
Speaker A:My dad had a good heart.
Speaker A:He really did.
Speaker B:Like, just caught up in the wrong crowd.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:My dad did his own thing, my dad.
Speaker A:Yeah, one crowd, definitely.
Speaker A:Just.
Speaker A:But my dad was a general contractor his whole life, right?
Speaker A:So he worked, you mean.
Speaker A:He was a gambler.
Speaker A:You get his paycheck, he'd be gone for two weeks at the casino, you mean, whatever, you know, that was my dad's thing, you know, so.
Speaker A:My dad was a good man.
Speaker A:I mean, that's not.
Speaker A:You know, a lot of people might have different opinions on it, right?
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:You know, of how he lived his life all the way to the end.
Speaker A:You know, he partied all the way to the end.
Speaker A:That was what my dad did.
Speaker A:My dad, like, he's like, I'm live my life how I want to live it, right.
Speaker A:And that's just what it is.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so I respect that, you know, Even though at the end I was like, man, you ever gonna stop that stuff?
Speaker A:He's like, I'm 50 something years old.
Speaker A:I'm stopped now.
Speaker A:Well, got a point.
Speaker A:I was like, whatever, you know, but damn, dude.
Speaker B:So you start doing that at that age.
Speaker B:Okay, so now you get.
Speaker B:You get lucky because they dropped the charges within 72 hours.
Speaker B:So you probably.
Speaker B:You're still on parole.
Speaker B:And they call it.
Speaker A:What.
Speaker B:What's the.
Speaker A:Continue on parole.
Speaker B:Continue on parole.
Speaker B:Which just buys you some more time.
Speaker B:They're not putting you in the system is.
Speaker B:Do they do that?
Speaker B:Because the facilities are already just max.
Speaker A:So in California, it's different.
Speaker A:Like if you're on parole and you get like a probate back then.
Speaker A:I don't know what is going on now.
Speaker A:Yeah, but this, at this time, you would do it.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:If you had.
Speaker A:Like, if you were absconding, they just put you in.
Speaker A:You get picked up for about 10 days.
Speaker A:They put you in the cell for 10 days and then kick you out.
Speaker A:There's just no room.
Speaker A:There's not, you know, there's just.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:There's so many people.
Speaker A:There's no room for it, you know.
Speaker B:Damn.
Speaker B:That's insane.
Speaker B:Okay, so you get this.
Speaker B:I don't want to say a second chance.
Speaker B:But you get really lucky on this parole ordeal.
Speaker B:Where does it all go wrong for you?
Speaker B:Because obviously you get sentenced again, so where do get caught up?
Speaker A:I want to say it was not.
Speaker A:I don't know about wrong.
Speaker A:It was already.
Speaker A:I was already doing wrong.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I'm selling.
Speaker A:I'm already selling dope.
Speaker A:I'm already.
Speaker B:I guess.
Speaker B:Where did it turn?
Speaker A:I think it was.
Speaker A:I think it was already turned because.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, I. I pro from cork and shoe.
Speaker A:I just got out of prison.
Speaker A:I'm.
Speaker A:You know, everything that I wrote my mom, all those years in prison, all the promises, right.
Speaker A:Didn't live up to not one of them.
Speaker A:So it was already bad.
Speaker A:It's day I got out of prison.
Speaker A:I'm running a gun.
Speaker A:I got.
Speaker A:I mean, I got a gun on me.
Speaker A:I'm in the car, right?
Speaker A:Like, everybody's high around me.
Speaker A:Like, I just actually looked.
Speaker A:One of my homegirls, she's now in Arizona, she just sent me some pictures of me and her.
Speaker A:And I was gonna send them to you.
Speaker A:I looked at these pictures and I was like, I don't know.
Speaker B:If I put these out, why was this a stage?
Speaker A:I look terrible.
Speaker B:How so?
Speaker A:I look worse in these pictures than I did in my booking photo.
Speaker B:Oh, just from the drug.
Speaker B:Drug use and everything.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I was.
Speaker A:I told her.
Speaker A:I was like, hey, like, you let me roll around like that.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:Like, seriously, you let me, like, you let me roll around like that.
Speaker A:And she's like, you thought.
Speaker A:Who would have told you anything?
Speaker A:Nobody can tell you anything at that moment.
Speaker A:I look, I look.
Speaker B:I want to see him.
Speaker A:I'll show.
Speaker A:I'll show you.
Speaker B:Send them to me.
Speaker A:I want to see.
Speaker A:I was really, like, embarrassed for myself.
Speaker B:That's a good thing, though, to be able to look back and.
Speaker B:Yeah, just think, holy.
Speaker B:That's the stage of my life that I was in at that point.
Speaker A:So I had.
Speaker A:Okay, so in this moment.
Speaker A:So this is.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I have actually, you're right now to answer that question, because I'm thinking about it.
Speaker A:There was a moment where it really changed.
Speaker A:Okay, so we're talking about drug use.
Speaker A:We're talking about these things.
Speaker A:I had met my child's mother, okay?
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Beautiful girl.
Speaker A:Beautiful.
Speaker A:Her dad is Opie from Sublime.
Speaker B:Oh, okay.
Speaker A:So everyone's.
Speaker A:Oh, that's Opie from Sublime's daughter.
Speaker A:So Opie was the DJ of Sublime.
Speaker A:He's the one who created the Sublime Son, all the artwork.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:After Brad died, he ended up creating the Long Beach Dub All Star.
Speaker A:So that's.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So that's her dad, okay?
Speaker A:And so everyone's.
Speaker A:Oh, it's Obi's daughter.
Speaker A:You know, so obviously I'm, like, intrigued, right?
Speaker A:And I get with her the first night.
Speaker A:We're.
Speaker A:We're partying.
Speaker A:Hey, come back over this house, okay?
Speaker A:And it was in watts.
Speaker A:We'll go over this house and Watts.
Speaker A:I'm a white boy going to Watts, right?
Speaker A:Get to this house.
Speaker A:And she's like, oh, you.
Speaker A:You get high?
Speaker A:I'm all, hell, yeah, I get high.
Speaker A:What's up?
Speaker A:You know?
Speaker A:And obviously, I'm a young.
Speaker A:I'm trying to impress the girl, right?
Speaker A:And we go into the bathroom, and she ends up pulling out this.
Speaker A:This rig.
Speaker A:And I'm like.
Speaker A:At first, I'm like.
Speaker A:I'm looking at her like, this girl shoots up.
Speaker A:She was beautiful.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, yeah.
Speaker A:All the time.
Speaker A:Never actually had.
Speaker A:Never had eyes shot up before.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:That right there was the moment things went bad.
Speaker A:Oh, no, now you're doing drugs.
Speaker A:You're doing.
Speaker A:Once you put that needle in your arm.
Speaker A:Once you put that needle in your arm.
Speaker A:It will change everything.
Speaker B:Damn.
Speaker B:And you.
Speaker B:So it was almost just a peer pressure thing, in a way.
Speaker B:You just want to look cool, feel cool in front of this chick.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:100 And you split, and you end.
Speaker A:Up slamming heroin because no meth.
Speaker A:I've never done heroin ever in my life.
Speaker B:Oh, so you still.
Speaker A:Okay, I shot.
Speaker A:I shot meth at that moment.
Speaker A:So you're doing meth you could do.
Speaker A:You're doing lines that you're bad.
Speaker A:You're doing bad.
Speaker A:Once you put that meth in your arms, different feeling.
Speaker A:It changes the whole name to the game.
Speaker B:Did you Im.
Speaker B:I mean, what was the.
Speaker B:Did you like it?
Speaker B:I mean, 100.
Speaker A:That's the point.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker B:You're hooked.
Speaker A:You're hooked.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker B:And started chasing.
Speaker B:Damn, dude.
Speaker A:And you turn.
Speaker A:It turns you into an animal.
Speaker A:It turns you into a stray animal.
Speaker A:You know, you do one of those.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:You don't have to do nothing for three days, you're going, right?
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And you're.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:Anything's possible.
Speaker A:I mean, no one's safe around you.
Speaker A:Nothing safe around you.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, so that was that moment where things changed for me.
Speaker B:Damn.
Speaker B:And so at this point, are you now chasing it?
Speaker B:Trying to do.
Speaker B:I mean, are you working?
Speaker B:What do you got going on in your life now that you.
Speaker A:I'm Robin.
Speaker A:Robbing cars, stealing cars, robbing people, Home invasions.
Speaker B:What's it like robbing somebody's house, going in there?
Speaker A:As far as the feeling, I mean, when you're.
Speaker A:I mean, I've never done it sober.
Speaker A:Okay, Right.
Speaker A:It's a valid point.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So, like, you know, when you're high, like, it's an adrenaline, but you're not.
Speaker A:You're not even in the right headspace to.
Speaker A:To, like, think in your mind that you're taking from somebody.
Speaker A:If you ask me right now, I would be disgusted.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, you're taking from somebody for sure.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, we all hate.
Speaker A:Even in prison, we don't like jailhouse thieves, but a lot of people are in there for theft, right?
Speaker A:And so in prison, you're like, oh, a jailhouse thief.
Speaker A:A jailhouse thief will get the business.
Speaker B:Like, but on the streets, it's.
Speaker A:And on the streets, we're stealing from people's homes, right?
Speaker A:So it's like, yeah, but I never worked a day in my life.
Speaker A:When I got out, I was just running and gunning hotel to hotel.
Speaker A:I was living that life with my homeboys from my neighborhood.
Speaker A:Like, you know, answering to the.
Speaker A:Answering to certain people.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:In that moment, There was a man that came into my life, and I'll speak on him, Matthew Kane Hall.
Speaker A:Okay, Right.
Speaker A:And a lot of people think, like, he.
Speaker A:In the.
Speaker A:He was in this negative lifestyle with me and stuff like that.
Speaker A:But he was a.
Speaker A:You know, he was a Brazilian jiu jitsu master.
Speaker A:He was a model in Italy.
Speaker A:He had a degree from ucla.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He had a contract with wwf, Right.
Speaker A:This is before anything for him.
Speaker A:Like, before any of the gang stuff started for him.
Speaker B:He.
Speaker A:He ended up going to prison after what.
Speaker A:During that contract.
Speaker A:And John Cena took his spot.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:So, you know, like, he's a bad.
Speaker A:You know, he was.
Speaker A:He was.
Speaker A:With his hands, yo, everything.
Speaker A:So you know the punk rock band Pennywise?
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:So he's in their first music video, homesick, right?
Speaker A:1992.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:He's the.
Speaker A:He's the one holding everybody back.
Speaker A:Like, he grew up with Pennywise.
Speaker A:Like, Cotmile Kings.
Speaker A:Like, he.
Speaker A:He put them on 19.
Speaker A: He was their bud dealer in: Speaker A:Like, they talk about him in the song Friends.
Speaker A:They say, if you need a life lesson, ask Matt Hall.
Speaker A:He'll give it to you.
Speaker A:He was a legend in his city.
Speaker A:You mean, like, in Hermosa beach in South Bay?
Speaker A:This man was a legend, right.
Speaker A:They called him Matthew Psycho Paul got it right.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker A:But he ended up becoming, like, he was from my neighborhood for 25 years right before he ended up becoming what he became.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But the moments I got to spend with him, right?
Speaker A:I have a tattoo to my.
Speaker A:I have a WWMHD underneath my chin on my leg.
Speaker A:What would Matt hall do?
Speaker A:And, like, he's the one who taught me Marcus Aurelius.
Speaker A:He's the one who.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, he taught me some things as far as being stoic and being intentional.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Maybe some of it was in a negative way in those moments, but I picked those with me.
Speaker A:But at that time, all I could do was want to make that man happy.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like, I wanted to make him so happy.
Speaker A:I wanted to.
Speaker A:He was my.
Speaker A:My focus.
Speaker B:And this is on the outside.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:This is while I'm out.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Living that lifestyle.
Speaker B:How did you guys get introduced.
Speaker A:Through.
Speaker A:Through the same hood gang stuff.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:And this man, he just got out.
Speaker A:He had just pro from pelican Bay after 15 or years, you know?
Speaker B:Got it.
Speaker A:Like, he's like.
Speaker A:I say he's a legend, you know?
Speaker A:And so all I wanted to do was make it, make this man happy, you know?
Speaker A:And even now.
Speaker A:Even now with what I'm doing today.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:Now he's.
Speaker A:He's gone now.
Speaker A:He's passed away.
Speaker A:With what I'm doing today, I want to make sure him and my father are happy with him.
Speaker A:Because at the end, which I'll share with you, that's what he told me before he passed away.
Speaker A:He said, all I want to see you do is do good.
Speaker A:Everything that I taught you in a negative way, forget about it.
Speaker B:Oh, so he.
Speaker B:Obviously he's changed over the years.
Speaker B:You know, while you're in.
Speaker A:He changed.
Speaker A:He changed the day before he died.
Speaker A:Oh, okay.
Speaker B:Got it.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He was all in on what he was doing.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And that's one thing I respected about that man.
Speaker B:So you're respecting him for the wrong reasons at that age.
Speaker B:You're watching because he's a legend in.
Speaker B:In your crew, in that community, and from your hood and all that.
Speaker B:Good.
Speaker B:So you now he's.
Speaker B:You have this legend gang banger that you've probably looked up to.
Speaker B:Heard all about all that good stuff, and so now he mentors you.
Speaker B:Not for the positive, though.
Speaker B:He's just trying to teach you how to run the streets and all that.
Speaker B:Good.
Speaker A:Well, I think he taught me how to be.
Speaker A:There's some things that he taught me, like accountability.
Speaker A:One number one, like, okay, there was a moment I remember, you know, this man, six five, 275 pounds.
Speaker A:Like, this dude's a bad.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like, he calls me to his house one day in Hermosa Beach.
Speaker A:So, hey, safety meeting.
Speaker A:Get here.
Speaker B:Now.
Speaker A:I'm like, okay, safe to me.
Speaker A:What does that.
Speaker A:What does this mean?
Speaker A:You know, I'm thinking in my mind.
Speaker A:Well, I get there and he puts me in front of him.
Speaker A:He goes, hey, where were you last night at this time?
Speaker A:I was like, oh.
Speaker A:He's like.
Speaker A:He said, before you start saying anything, I'm gonna teach you something right now.
Speaker A:First things first, you're gonna take accountability for what you've done.
Speaker A:You're going to figure out what you need to do to fix it, Then you're going to keep it moving.
Speaker A:You know, there's only a few things in this world that aren't fixable.
Speaker A:You know what those are?
Speaker A:You can't fix certain things, but most things you can fix.
Speaker A:I was, all right, well, you know, I was at this house and I actually robbed this.
Speaker A:And he was.
Speaker A:But guess what?
Speaker A:That was a relative of mine.
Speaker A:No, right.
Speaker A:He goes in, you know, so check it out.
Speaker A:Take accountability right now.
Speaker A:This is what you're gonna do to fix it.
Speaker A:And you're gonna keep it pushing.
Speaker A:Simple as that.
Speaker A:And I was like, as simple as that.
Speaker A:I've been able to use that as I move forward in life now.
Speaker A:Even though that was a bad situation and these new things, sometimes we do stuff and we don't.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:Like we don't want to take accountability for sure.
Speaker A:Whatever it is.
Speaker A:And I've learned, like, okay, like I could take accountability for this today.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Figure out what I need to do to fix it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I just.
Speaker A:And I just get on with it.
Speaker B:Because you didn't get checked for that.
Speaker A:No, no, no.
Speaker B:You got lucky then, huh?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, he loved me.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I have.
Speaker A:There's voice.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He loved me.
Speaker A:He loved me on a different level.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I was this one and only kid.
Speaker A:I was the one I was in 25 years that he was from my neighborhood.
Speaker A:I was a one that he ever put his name.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:You know, so there was.
Speaker A:Hey, you got lucky.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You said the reason why I had never pulled anybody else up in 25 years, because if they f. They up, I'm gonna be the one that.
Speaker A:And I don't want to do that.
Speaker A:He just said, don't.
Speaker A:Don't make me do it.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:What is the hardest part about that lifestyle?
Speaker A:Never being.
Speaker A:Never people never being happy.
Speaker A:No matter what.
Speaker A:You can't.
Speaker A:You can't make everybody happy.
Speaker A:No matter what.
Speaker A:Someone's gonna be upset.
Speaker B:That's just what it is of living that gang life.
Speaker B:Just.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:100 Misery.
Speaker A:No one's ever.
Speaker A:If you.
Speaker A:If you're trying to make one person happy and you're doing this, someone, no matter what, is going to be upset and pray on your downfall.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So after you.
Speaker B:This guy puts you in check.
Speaker B:You're now bad into the drugs.
Speaker B:You said you're slamming meth, got tied up, robbing people.
Speaker B:Back.
Speaker B:Straight back into it.
Speaker B:How long have you been running now?
Speaker B:Since you got released.
Speaker B:How.
Speaker B:What was the stent of on the streets?
Speaker A:Well, I kept getting.
Speaker A:I kept getting arrested a little bit for those.
Speaker A:Those continue on paroles.
Speaker B:Like you said.
Speaker B:You didn't get away with anything earlier.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You're getting caught for all this.
Speaker A:I continue on paroles about a year.
Speaker A:About a year.
Speaker A:Obviously.
Speaker A:Then.
Speaker A:And then I, you know, I was with my.
Speaker A:I was with my baby's mom, and I wasn't.
Speaker A:We weren't together.
Speaker A:Like, she was just there and I was being a dog and doing the things I was.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And she.
Speaker A:She was pregnant.
Speaker A:Baby mom.
Speaker A:She was one day.
Speaker A:So I'm pregnant.
Speaker A:You Know, I'm like, well, yeah, I'm.
Speaker A:You know, like, here we go.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And so I'm dealing with that and still doing what I'm doing.
Speaker A:Like, yeah, I wasn't.
Speaker A:You know, I guess I wasn't even in the right mind.
Speaker A:I was.
Speaker A:I was lod out, literally.
Speaker A:Like, you start putting that.
Speaker A:That needle in your arm, it.
Speaker A:You turn into different animal, you know?
Speaker A:And so through all that, like, I don't know, there was moments like.
Speaker A:Because at that.
Speaker A:At that point, I was doing what I was doing, and my dad.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:There was a few altercations.
Speaker A:Me and my dad.
Speaker A:And me and my dad really never, like, my dad's always loved me.
Speaker A:When I was a kid, he might have.
Speaker A:You know, he never spanked me.
Speaker A:He'd always tell me to get my hands up, you know, you want to act like a man, you're going to get it.
Speaker A:Like a man.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Mom was a spanker.
Speaker A:You know, my mom.
Speaker A:Mom wasn't afraid to use that thing, you know, that's why I was telling her I was watching because she has my son.
Speaker A:Why don't you spank him?
Speaker A:Shows you can't get it.
Speaker A:Because if I spanked him the way I spanked you, I'll go to jail now.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's how mom is.
Speaker B:But that's a grandma's role, though.
Speaker B:Grandmas are supposed to be handing out a little.
Speaker B:Little candies.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Enjoying life.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But with dad, that's how dad was, so.
Speaker A:But we've never been no big altercation.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And when I.
Speaker A:When I was out, there was a few things I. I was doing that weren't.
Speaker A:And me and my dad got in some big altercations, you know?
Speaker B:Oh, okay.
Speaker A:You know, and.
Speaker A:And I felt like I was this man now.
Speaker A:I didn't need, you know, you know, I just.
Speaker A:I did all this time in prison.
Speaker A:I got out, like, you know.
Speaker B:You got a name now?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:100.
Speaker A:You know, I'm not Tony Nappy Son.
Speaker A:I'm.
Speaker A:I'm whispering.
Speaker A:You know, that was my.
Speaker A:That was my handle, right.
Speaker A:Like, I got stabbed in my.
Speaker A:My neck when I was a little younger, right?
Speaker B:You got stabbed in the neck?
Speaker B:Walk me through that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:When I was young, I got in this.
Speaker A:It was actually with one of my.
Speaker A:In my.
Speaker A:One of my buddies.
Speaker A:I go into this house, and we're.
Speaker A:Again, we're young, partying.
Speaker A:I go in his house and I go through this.
Speaker A:Me and him start fighting.
Speaker A:I go through this.
Speaker A:He had, like, a mirror the mirror shatters.
Speaker A:Boom.
Speaker A:Hits me, my neck, above my heart, in my side.
Speaker A:And he was locked out, too.
Speaker A:So he has this knife, this.
Speaker A:This thing to my neck, you know?
Speaker A:And, yeah, he's.
Speaker A:I talked to him the other day.
Speaker A:He's one of my.
Speaker A:You know, I look back at those moments.
Speaker A:Yeah, we were beefing.
Speaker A:I was.
Speaker A:I was out to get him.
Speaker A:When I was that.
Speaker A:That age.
Speaker A:I was, I'm gonna kill this dude, you know, and actually talked to another day.
Speaker A:He hit me up and asked for advice.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker A:You know, he's struggling, and he's like, hey, I see you.
Speaker A:Like, can I get some advice?
Speaker A:You know?
Speaker A:But, yeah.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I got above my heart, in my side.
Speaker A:I was.
Speaker A:I was young.
Speaker A:I hit my vocal cords.
Speaker A:That's why my voice is so raspy.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Damn, you got lucky.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:No, for sure.
Speaker B:So what was the moment that led you to get locked up and get you shipped to Idaho?
Speaker A:So I had.
Speaker A:So I was in.
Speaker A:We're in Long beach, and I had this dude I wasn't getting along with, right?
Speaker A:And I found out he was at this hotel.
Speaker A:So I'm gonna roll over this.
Speaker A:I'm roll up on this dude at this hotel, okay.
Speaker A:Go to this hotel.
Speaker A:And I ended up doing some violence on him.
Speaker B:What?
Speaker A:You know, I have my.
Speaker A:My gun on me.
Speaker A:And I'm like, hey, like, what's up?
Speaker A:I meant to just, like, get him on the ground.
Speaker A:Well, he ended up, like, with a split wig at the end of the altercation.
Speaker A:So I'm.
Speaker A:Oh, shoot, like, I gotta go.
Speaker A:I get in the car, I take off.
Speaker A:I'm driving down pch.
Speaker A:Everything revolves around pch, for sure.
Speaker A:So I'm driving down pch, and.
Speaker A:And I get a phone call.
Speaker A:They're like, hey, your name's all over the police scanner.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh.
Speaker A:So I get this hotel room.
Speaker A:I'm trying to figure out an idea of what I'm gonna do.
Speaker A:Remember, I got my baby mom.
Speaker A:She's pregnant.
Speaker A:So I'm like, okay, what am I gonna do?
Speaker A:What am I gonna do?
Speaker A:And I end up calling my sister.
Speaker A:Well, my dad.
Speaker A:My dad had a daughter that I ended up meeting when I was 17.
Speaker A:She went to prison for six years.
Speaker A:I went to prison for the time.
Speaker A:So we got at the same time.
Speaker A:Now she's in Boise, Idaho.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:I'm like, hey, like, where are you at?
Speaker A:Boise, Idaho?
Speaker A:I said, where is that?
Speaker A:I have no idea where that's at.
Speaker A:So I look it up on my phone.
Speaker A:I find out where it's at.
Speaker A:I sell my truck that.
Speaker A:That wasn't even really mine.
Speaker A:It was, you know, so I sold the truck that wasn't mine.
Speaker A:And I get on the Greyhound with my baby mom, and I take off to Boise, Idaho.
Speaker A:I'm on this grayhound.
Speaker A:I get up here, my sister's like, yeah, I'm doing.
Speaker A:I'm doing good with the Paul Mitchell.
Speaker A:I did all these things.
Speaker A:I walk into this house, she's smoking heroin.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:I'm like, first thing I think is like, oh, I can come up.
Speaker A:I was, hey, I'll be back.
Speaker A:Where's your car?
Speaker A:I get in the car, I drive back to Long Beach.
Speaker B:What?
Speaker A:I go pick up.
Speaker A:I go, give me.
Speaker A:I go pick up a few ounces of heroin.
Speaker A:I bring it back.
Speaker A:I. I sell some heroin.
Speaker A:All right, I'm all cool.
Speaker A:Did that a few times.
Speaker A:I was out here for, I don't know, maybe 25 days, whatever it was.
Speaker A:And baby mama's still here.
Speaker A:And get back in.
Speaker A:I end up going with somebody here.
Speaker A:I drive down to Long Beach.
Speaker A:Well, at that, the reason why I left, my big homie said, hey, get out of here.
Speaker A:Because that's altercation I had had.
Speaker A:Let me handle this right?
Speaker A:And then you could come back.
Speaker A:So when I kept going back, I wasn't telling him.
Speaker A:Well, this last time he found out I was there.
Speaker A:He's like, hey, mother, I told you, don't be here.
Speaker A:You're in trouble.
Speaker A:Like, there's some things going on here that you're in trouble with.
Speaker A:So I spoke earlier when I said hey about my first.
Speaker A:Cody fended him being with me.
Speaker A:Yeah, I felt bad about it.
Speaker A:So this last time, I'm.
Speaker A:I go to this hotel room and I pick up some heroin, and one of my homeboys is there from my neighborhood.
Speaker A:I'm like, hey, bro.
Speaker A:Like, what's up?
Speaker A:Oh, what's up?
Speaker A:What's up, Whisper?
Speaker A:We're hanging out.
Speaker A:I'm a little bro.
Speaker A:Like, I'm going back to Boise, Idaho.
Speaker A:Like, come with me.
Speaker A:He's like, no, I ain't going to Idaho.
Speaker A:I'm like, I'm a bro.
Speaker A:They love us up there.
Speaker A:You know, I'm in this mindset.
Speaker A:He's like, okay, cool.
Speaker A:So now I got this individual in the car with me.
Speaker A:Yes, he's a grown man.
Speaker A:Yes, he agreed to it.
Speaker A:But now I got him in the car with me because I invited him, okay?
Speaker A:He doesn't know nobody here.
Speaker A:He doesn't know anything.
Speaker A:I got him in the car, and we take off and we're partying through Vegas, and we're in a stolen car going there, Right.
Speaker A:I'm in a stone car, right?
Speaker A:I'm in a stolen car going there.
Speaker B:Oh, my God.
Speaker B:You're just asking.
Speaker B:You're doing everything right to be wrong.
Speaker A:So I'm in this stone car, and we have, I don't know, four pounds of heroin in the car.
Speaker A:Couple pounds of meth, cob, everything you could think of.
Speaker B:Four pounds of heroin?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:That's impressive.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, I'm not thinking nothing of it.
Speaker A:It's just in the car, I'm just like.
Speaker A:You know, where I'm from, it's whatever, you know, we're just going.
Speaker A:And we stop in Vegas.
Speaker A:We're partying in Vegas, you know, doing.
Speaker A:We do stop a jackpot.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And he was driving crazy.
Speaker A:I'm a.
Speaker A:Hey, bro, like, let me drive.
Speaker A:Remember?
Speaker A:I've never had a driver's license.
Speaker A:I've wrecked every car I've ever been in.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Anybody who knows me knows.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I've never had a driver's license.
Speaker A:I've never, you know, like, I never had opportunity, like, to learn.
Speaker A:I just drive, get in the car and go, you know?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So we're coming up from.
Speaker A:From Vegas or from.
Speaker A:Yeah, from.
Speaker A:No, from Jackpot now.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:And I've been partying for the whole time I've been out of prison.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Well, I'm, you know, and I end up flying outside the freeway.
Speaker A:I. I fall asleep.
Speaker A:I can tell you this isn't like the best criminal type stuff.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Like, yeah, you're a pretty horrible criminal from what I'm gathering from you.
Speaker A:No, but because I don't think of myself as.
Speaker A:I wasn't thinking myself, like, oh, I'm a.
Speaker A:Like, I'm a white collar criminal or.
Speaker A:A criminal.
Speaker B:Yeah, you're just living.
Speaker A:I'm just living.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker B:Yeah, you're not very good at it.
Speaker A:I don't give a.
Speaker A:You know, like, you have no.
Speaker A:You have no given at that time.
Speaker B:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:And so I fly off the side and, like, I wasn't like a drug trafficker.
Speaker A:I was just bringing.
Speaker B:Trafficking drugs.
Speaker A:Yeah, Like.
Speaker A:Like there's some people that, like, you know, they do it for a living and they pack the cars up.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:They do it like.
Speaker A:Mine's in the.
Speaker A:In the back seat in the backpack.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And right.
Speaker A:Like, we're just.
Speaker A:We got bottled Jameson in the.
Speaker A:In the car.
Speaker A:Yeah, we're just partying, bro.
Speaker B:You're a cop's wet dream is what you are.
Speaker A:Driving down the highway, I fly off the side of the freeway right in this hatchback that's stolen, okay?
Speaker A:It flips right and goes a few times.
Speaker A:I land on the hood.
Speaker A:I get out of the car, I roll out and the windshield sticking out my right chest, there are the windshield sticking out of me and I'm like, all right.
Speaker A:So I get up, I look around, it's like three in the morning and people are like, hey.
Speaker A:I'm like.
Speaker A:So I start running and my homie's like, help.
Speaker A:So I go back, hit the seat belt and pull my homie out the car, right?
Speaker A:At that point, I'm alright.
Speaker A:It's every man for himself, okay?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But there's stuff all over the freeway.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, I'm talking about everything I had in the car.
Speaker A:Drugs everywhere, Everywhere.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So I run outside the freeway and it's dark.
Speaker A:I have no idea where I'm at, so I run.
Speaker A:I run straight out.
Speaker A:I run in the barbed wire.
Speaker A:Pull the barbed wire out my, my chin.
Speaker A:Now the barbed wire is on my chin.
Speaker A:I pull it out.
Speaker A:I turn to my left, I see stage stop.
Speaker A:Okay, all right, here I go.
Speaker A:So I run the stage stop.
Speaker A:I get the stage stop.
Speaker A:I'm climbing.
Speaker A:I look back over my.
Speaker A:Over my shoulder.
Speaker A:There's like five ambulance, cop cars, everything, right?
Speaker A:You're just running.
Speaker A:I'm running.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:I get to this truck stop, open the truck door, I get one of the trucks and I sat in that truck for about three hours, just sitting there with the windshield sticking on my chest, just not moving.
Speaker B:You got a chunk of glass like it?
Speaker A:Yeah, it sticks out my chest.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Oh my.
Speaker A:So I'm just laying there like this, like, okay.
Speaker A:And then go ahead me or knock, knock, knock.
Speaker A:Come out.
Speaker B:Oh, they had you in there.
Speaker B:They found you.
Speaker A:They found me in the truck, right?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:So I come out and they're like, hands up.
Speaker A:You know, I'm like.
Speaker A:They're like, they.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:You're in the.
Speaker A:I was.
Speaker A:I wasn't down there, you know, no way.
Speaker A:I wasn't me.
Speaker B:You're all tore up.
Speaker A:Yeah, I was tore up.
Speaker A:And so they put me in the.
Speaker A:They put me in the cop car and I go to the hospital.
Speaker A:So I want.
Speaker A:I'm at the hospital and I remember them saying, you know, tell us where it was coming from and tell us where it was going at that moment.
Speaker A:I was like, oh, they found the drugs.
Speaker A:I still didn't know where I was at.
Speaker A:I still knew what was going on.
Speaker A:I'm like, although I have no idea what you're talking about, you know?
Speaker A:So then they.
Speaker A:They stitch me up, do all that.
Speaker A:I end up going to Ada County Jail.
Speaker A: I'm in: Speaker A:They sent me straight to Max.
Speaker A:Ada County Jail.
Speaker A:I fall asleep.
Speaker A:I wake up, I hear in the vent.
Speaker A:So you.
Speaker A:And there you talking through the vents to your neighbor.
Speaker A:So I remember the neighbor being like, hey, bro, man, seen you on the news.
Speaker A:I said, oh, yeah.
Speaker A:He said, you're probably gonna get like 50 years.
Speaker A:I said, for what?
Speaker A:He's like, bro, they don't play with heroin around here.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, no.
Speaker A:Oh, no.
Speaker A:Oh, my.
Speaker A:What did I get myself into?
Speaker A:You know?
Speaker A:And, yeah, my.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:Through that journey, I sat Max here at Ada County Jail for a long time.
Speaker A:I was.
Speaker A:They're offering me 20 years plus 20 years for a long time.
Speaker A:So I was in the 15 to life bracket.
Speaker A:So anything over 28 grams in the state of Idaho is a mandatory minimum of 15 years to life on your fixed.
Speaker A:So that's your front time.
Speaker A:Your fixed time is your front.
Speaker A:Your time you have to do.
Speaker A:So it's a mandatory minimum of 15.
Speaker B:Years to life before you're even eligible for parole.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I was.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:So I was like, we're going to trial.
Speaker A:She's like, my.
Speaker A:My lawyer is like, michael, you don't want to go to trial.
Speaker B:We have everything.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:She goes, there's pictures of you going in to get this car.
Speaker A:Because I had.
Speaker A:I had.
Speaker A:Took somebody's.
Speaker A:Their credit card, all this stuff.
Speaker A:That's how I got the.
Speaker A:The car.
Speaker A:I went into the rent a car place.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But you can see the picture of me getting the rent a car with the other guy's id, Right?
Speaker B:Like, it was just right, bro, you're just leaving breadcrumbs.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Everywhere.
Speaker A:100.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm just giving.
Speaker A:Just giving it to him, you know?
Speaker A:But you're not listening at that time.
Speaker B:I'm like, yeah, you're trying to survive.
Speaker A:I'm not going back to prison.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's not even a thing.
Speaker A:I'm not even worried about that.
Speaker A:Like, this is.
Speaker B:Yeah, there's at least your worries.
Speaker A:At least your worries at that moment.
Speaker A:You know, you're just.
Speaker A:You're just going.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like, yeah.
Speaker A:So they're like.
Speaker A:She's like, you don't want to go to trial.
Speaker A:I'm like, okay, so right before we end up getting.
Speaker A:Because I was like, I'm gonna go to try if they're.
Speaker A:If you offer me 20 plus 20.
Speaker A:And that's your deal.
Speaker A:I'm going to trial.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm not.
Speaker A:I'm not gonna sign a piece of paper that says 20 years plus 20 years.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:No way.
Speaker A:I don't care what I did.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:No matter what I did, I'll take their chances.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so right before trial, she comes in, she's like, hey, we have a deal.
Speaker A:I said, what?
Speaker A:She goes, we'll move.
Speaker A:If you plead guilty, they'll move you down.
Speaker A:So pleading guilty, obviously they want you to plead guilty.
Speaker A:They want all the guilty verdicts they could get.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:They don't want to go to trial.
Speaker A:That's money costs money.
Speaker A:So she's like, if you move.
Speaker A:If you plead guilty, they'll move you from the 15 to life bracket to the 10 to life bracket.
Speaker A:And I'm like.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:But your deal is 12 plus 10.
Speaker A:That's all sign right now.
Speaker A:In my mind, it was a win.
Speaker A:I was like, that's a win.
Speaker A:Anything under 15 years, I'm getting over on them.
Speaker A:That's how I felt.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I signed 12.
Speaker A:I signed 12 plus 10.
Speaker A:I'm like, cool.
Speaker A:So I go back, I get back to Ada County Jail.
Speaker A:I signed 12 plus 10.
Speaker A:But in the state of Idaho, you'll sign and then you'll go to sentencing.
Speaker A:So it's different than California.
Speaker A:California's all right, here's your time.
Speaker A:Boom.
Speaker A:Get out of here.
Speaker A:There you have to go.
Speaker A:Then you'll go back in front of the judge.
Speaker A:The judge's sentencing, what he feels.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Works.
Speaker A:So then you have another opportunity to.
Speaker A:To fight what you want.
Speaker A:Obviously, I couldn't.
Speaker A:I was in the 10 to life bracket, so I couldn't.
Speaker A:I couldn't get nothing under 10 years.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I went there and I was like, hey, I take a full accountability.
Speaker A:Like, you know, my.
Speaker A:Obviously, I brought my co defendant with me, Right.
Speaker A:Like, this is what it was.
Speaker A:I take full responsibility.
Speaker A:I made a decision.
Speaker A:I didn't.
Speaker A:I. I wasn't worried about nobody else.
Speaker A:Like, I think that was my first opportunity to take accountability for anything.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I don't think I've ever taken accountability for anything at that point in your life, ever.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Especially stuff like this.
Speaker A:Like, I still.
Speaker A:It still really didn't hit me of what, you know, I'm thinking like, oh, I'm for heroin.
Speaker A:I'm getting all this time.
Speaker A:It makes no sense.
Speaker A:Like, I was like, you know, fuck the system.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I'm like, it makes no sense to me.
Speaker A:But at that moment, I was like, you know, hey, this was me.
Speaker A:And then I'm giving me.
Speaker A:So they gave me 10 years plus eight years for 18 years.
Speaker A:And they gave my Cody fan 10 years plus four years.
Speaker A:Okay, right.
Speaker A:Because obviously I was, you know, so.
Speaker A:Yeah, then we get.
Speaker B:Damn.
Speaker B:So your boy that was just riding along with you ended up getting 10 years.
Speaker B:Sucks for him.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you guys both get put here.
Speaker B:How did he take that?
Speaker A:It's still something that I'm dealing with today.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:That's actually like a.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I. I'm not allowed to talk to him per.
Speaker A:Per parole.
Speaker A:We have the same pro officer, so that's.
Speaker B:You guys have.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker B:Were you guys in contact on the inside?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Were you guys cool on the inside?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:When we had.
Speaker A:You had those conversations.
Speaker A:But I mean, obviously, you know, things change over time and.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And there's, you know, I feel, you know, I got out before him, and obviously I'm living his lifestyle.
Speaker A:I'm doing these things.
Speaker A:Oh, he's watching.
Speaker A:I would.
Speaker A:I would love to be able to, like, be of assistance, bro.
Speaker A:Like, and it's hard, like.
Speaker A:And I had that conversation with my pro officer because I've been out, right?
Speaker A:Like, hey, like this.
Speaker A:I feel accountable.
Speaker A:I feel responsibility that.
Speaker A:Well, you shouldn't.
Speaker A:I'm, like, a lot of people have said that, hey, don't feel guilty over this.
Speaker A:I'm like, I hear you guys, but that doesn't change.
Speaker A:Besides the gang stuff, besides any of it, right.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:There's an integrity part where I wish, you know, like, at the end of the day, like, yes, he's a grown man.
Speaker A:He got in the car with me and all that.
Speaker A:But, like, I don't know what his life would have looked like without this.
Speaker A:I'm not sure.
Speaker A:But I still think that, like, as a.
Speaker A:As a brother as any, as a man, that I should have been there the day he got out and.
Speaker A:And at least took him to buy a pair of shoes and took him, you know, because he's not from here now.
Speaker A:He's stuck here.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I can't do it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so it eats at me, you know?
Speaker A:And so I think with time, obviously.
Speaker A:Obviously with time, for sure.
Speaker A:Well, I'm showing that I'm my pro officer.
Speaker A:Seeing that, like, hey, you're handling business.
Speaker A:You're doing what you're doing.
Speaker A:You're all.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:You're with the right people.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And obviously he has to do the same thing.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And we'll reevaluate that then.
Speaker A:But, yeah, it eats at me.
Speaker A:I wish I could help something.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Is he still in or is he out?
Speaker A:No, he's out here.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker B:Okay, you can't.
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker B:And due to your parole orders, you can't.
Speaker A:And we talk.
Speaker A:It's a wrap.
Speaker B:Damn.
Speaker B:So that probably puts a little bit more.
Speaker B:I don't want to say pressure weight that.
Speaker B:That you're feeling, because here you are.
Speaker B:We'll get into life afterward and how you're thriving now and then.
Speaker B:You can't even help homie out and be like, yo, come along with this ride that I'm on.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:Like, I'm.
Speaker A:Like, these job opportunities I'm getting and doing the things I'm doing.
Speaker A:Like, I'm a project, man.
Speaker A:All these things, bro.
Speaker A:And it's like, you can't go to.
Speaker B:Your parole officer and be like, I already have.
Speaker A:And I. I get where he's coming from, though, for sure.
Speaker A:So it's like, hey, this is somebody that you live that lifestyle with.
Speaker A:Like, okay.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, not only.
Speaker A:He's not just some.
Speaker A:Like, you guys are from the same neighborhood.
Speaker A:You guys are all that, like.
Speaker B:And I guess, statistically speaking, too, if you looked at numbers, that's probably the last thing you want to do is get reconnected with anybody from your previous life getting out, because then it just helps you get wrapped right back up into it, which obviously is the last thing you ever want to do.
Speaker B:So I get it.
Speaker B:I get.
Speaker B:I get the system.
Speaker A:And in that way, the data behind.
Speaker B:It, obviously, it speaks a different story.
Speaker A:The data behind it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so it's like, if you look at the data, I get it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So, yeah, that could be.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But I. I see where you're coming from, too, because you still have this sensor or this guilt.
Speaker B:My.
Speaker B:My fault.
Speaker B:I asked.
Speaker B:I'm with you.
Speaker B:I respect that for sure.
Speaker B:Because if I ask somebody to do something from.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And you'll hop in, let's do this road trip.
Speaker B:And they're just there for the ride.
Speaker B:And they end up getting caught up in that situation, and 10 years later, you want to be like, yo, let me help you.
Speaker B:I mean.
Speaker A:And like I said, like, it happened before and it happened again.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so it's like, I'm aware of it now.
Speaker A:I'm looking at it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And like, I'm not saying the boats.
Speaker A:Both individuals were innocent.
Speaker A:Any sense of.
Speaker A:During those moments.
Speaker A:But still, as a man, like, sure.
Speaker A:I'm like, man.
Speaker A:I mean, like, yeah, these are.
Speaker A:I don't think I owe anything, but I want to be able to be of service.
Speaker A:I want to be able to, you know, I've built these connections and done these things.
Speaker A:Like, hey, these are available for you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What you do with is on you, of course.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But they're available for you and, and hey, it works.
Speaker B:Here you go.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I can't do it.
Speaker A:So it's just, it's been eating at me a little bit.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:For sure.
Speaker A:Recently.
Speaker A:This is all recent stuff I'm dealing with right now.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But I'm working on it.
Speaker B:Definitely when you ended up getting put in Boise, you're obviously big into meth.
Speaker B:Were you using on the inside?
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:No, I'm.
Speaker A:So even in California, I never used drugs in California.
Speaker A:And when I got to Boise, so I got to Boise and obviously went straight to doing what I do.
Speaker A:I'm from California.
Speaker A:People from, from Idaho, like there.
Speaker A:It's one of those things like you're a California boy, you know, I mean, like, you gotta extra prove yourself here.
Speaker A:Oh, really?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And what, and what I mean by, like earlier I was telling you, here, there's so many.
Speaker A:I've never seen so many white people in my life.
Speaker A:I was like, oh my goodness, why the ho, bro?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Especially in the prison system.
Speaker A:I'm like, this is crazy.
Speaker A:I was like, but yeah, there's so many white people that we take in it for granted.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker A:And that's why I meant to.
Speaker A:But you asked earlier, like, hey, can somebody just come here and just do their time?
Speaker A:100.
Speaker B:In certain states, in certain prisons.
Speaker A:Here, here.
Speaker A:100.
Speaker A:There's people here that have been down for 30 years and they've been doing their own thing for 30 years.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, and you go to a big.
Speaker B:Metropolitan area, it doesn't play those roles.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's just different.
Speaker A:A different type of environment.
Speaker A:The lay of the land's different, you know, but here in the beginning.
Speaker A:Yeah, in the beginning, I, I went straight to it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Putting in work, doing what I did in the prison system and building unhealthy relationships with how.
Speaker A:With staff, with.
Speaker A:Just because I was a you me verse is me versus you us, you know, us versus them mentality.
Speaker A:You know, straight to it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That's what we.
Speaker A:I don't talk to you guys.
Speaker A:I don't break bread with you guys.
Speaker A:I'm gonna give you a smart ass.
Speaker B:Answer with the, with the CEOs.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you're doing everything.
Speaker B:You're just rolling right into the typical.
Speaker B:The system.
Speaker B:Everybody's against Me, I'm gonna make your life as miserable as possible.
Speaker A: u know, and I think that's so: Speaker A: Going into: Speaker A:Yeah, I'd already put in my first piece here.
Speaker A:Got level one enhancement, which would.
Speaker A:Made me close custody.
Speaker B:What does that mean?
Speaker A:So close custody is like, max, right?
Speaker A:What'd you do to get paid?
Speaker A:You have close custody.
Speaker A:You have medium, and then you have minimum.
Speaker A:Okay, so closed custody is your Max, obviously.
Speaker A:Violence, right?
Speaker A:Stg violence.
Speaker A:Gang.
Speaker A:Gang violence.
Speaker B:What's the gang.
Speaker B:Okay, so what's the difference of the gang violence in California versus Idaho?
Speaker A:It's still.
Speaker A:It's still violent here.
Speaker A:People.
Speaker A:People are always like, oh, well, in California.
Speaker A:I'm like, well, don't sleep on them Idaho boys.
Speaker A:Don't do it.
Speaker A:Like, you'll have dudes from California come here.
Speaker A:They're all from California.
Speaker A:This is how we do it.
Speaker A:I'm like, okay, cool.
Speaker A:I'm from California too.
Speaker A:That's not how we do it.
Speaker A:I'm like, you know, but you're not in California no.
Speaker A:More like, you're here.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's what I. I hate it.
Speaker A:People like, oh, that dude's from California.
Speaker A:I don't care.
Speaker A:Like, what?
Speaker B:Let me.
Speaker A:Because.
Speaker A:Because, yeah, most of them are like, well, California.
Speaker A:We would do it like this.
Speaker A:I'm like, well, you're not in California.
Speaker B:What's the biggest difference, though?
Speaker A:I don't think there's ever been a racial struggle here.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So people, like, we don't know how.
Speaker A:Like, as white boys here, we don't really know how to do certain things.
Speaker A:There's never been a racial struggle.
Speaker A:You've never had a struggle over that.
Speaker A:So you don't get it.
Speaker A:Like, you mean, it's like, so would.
Speaker B:It be hard from a white boy going from Idaho to a California system?
Speaker A:It would probably be a big culture shock, for sure.
Speaker A:But like I said, people think, oh, there's gangsters everywhere you go.
Speaker A:And people try.
Speaker A:Like I said, people try to underestimate certain states.
Speaker A:There's tough dudes everywhere you go.
Speaker A:So, you know, me being in Idaho in the beginning, I hated it.
Speaker A:I was like, this place.
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker A:Just because, you know, you're outsider.
Speaker A:If I was home, I'll be, you know, I mean, like, I'll be in the mix.
Speaker A:Everything's in my hands.
Speaker A:This is what it is, right?
Speaker A:Like, I'm running the show here.
Speaker A:You're an outsider.
Speaker A:So in the beginning, it was one of those things, oh, these dudes.
Speaker A:I wish I was home.
Speaker A:You Know, okay, you know, like, I wish I was home.
Speaker A:I wish I was never here.
Speaker A:You know, I end up getting sent from.
Speaker A:So they end up sending 200 of us.
Speaker A: I remember in: Speaker A:They sent 200 of us.
Speaker A:They put us on an airplane.
Speaker A:Put us on the airplane, came, snatched us up.
Speaker A:I was icc.
Speaker A:ICC is the gladiator dorm, they call it.
Speaker B:I've had a guest on talk about Austin Legg.
Speaker B:Officer.
Speaker B:I don't know if you've ever had to deal with him, but he talked.
Speaker A:About gladiator school, so.
Speaker A:Someone actually just spoke.
Speaker A:Miss.
Speaker A:Who was it Barlow or Alicia Carver?
Speaker A:I think it was Alicia Carver.
Speaker A:She watches you.
Speaker A:She's the warden at icc.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:She's probably not a fan of me because I go hard on corrections, man.
Speaker B:I think it's a scam.
Speaker B:So I'd like to have a conversation with her.
Speaker A:She actually.
Speaker A:I asked them their input, and when I actually brought.
Speaker A:She says, I watch him.
Speaker B:That's what we're making it, kid.
Speaker B:So we're making it.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And they gave.
Speaker A:And they gave me the okay.
Speaker A:I asked her permission, right?
Speaker A:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker A:Because I don't want it.
Speaker A:You mean there's.
Speaker A:There's some of them that obviously will speak about you, but have been big impacts on my life.
Speaker A:I said, hey, like, what does that look like?
Speaker A:They said, we trust you, Michael.
Speaker A:Cool.
Speaker A:You know, but Alicia says she.
Speaker A:You mean like, she said, I've watched him and she.
Speaker A:She talked about Austin.
Speaker A:Yeah, she said Austin was on there.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But yeah, icc.
Speaker A:So I was at icc.
Speaker A:I was in G block, which is the STG tier.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:This is nothing but gang members.
Speaker A:Idol gang members.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I was there and they came and they're.
Speaker A:Hey, we're.
Speaker A:We're.
Speaker A:They started naming names, right?
Speaker A:My name was on that list.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because I had so much time left.
Speaker A:Okay, we're sending you out of state to where?
Speaker A:I went to Texas.
Speaker A:How was that started?
Speaker A:We started in.
Speaker A:So they said, hey, pack all your property.
Speaker A:And in prison, people think, oh, like we get a lot of property.
Speaker A:Like, you start.
Speaker A:I'm talking about like, I probably had like seven boxes of property in your room.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's just books, paper.
Speaker A:What is it?
Speaker A:Anything commissary that becomes your life.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That is your.
Speaker A:That is.
Speaker A:You mean you're world.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And people don't really like your.
Speaker A:Your pictures, you know, your little alarm clocks, everything.
Speaker A:Shower, shoes, everything.
Speaker A:It becomes your life.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:They said, pack all your stuff up, then pack one little box and you'll that you're gonna take with you to this place, and the rest will get to you later on.
Speaker A:We're like.
Speaker A:And they said, no electronics notes.
Speaker A:Because we have TVs.
Speaker A:You know, we have our little TVs.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:No electronics.
Speaker A:I'm like, okay.
Speaker A:So I packed this stuff up.
Speaker A:They put us on the airplane.
Speaker A:It's a little box, had a couple little pairs of clothes in there.
Speaker A:My tablet.
Speaker A:I have a tablet in there, right?
Speaker A:And they put us on the airplane and shipped us off to.
Speaker A:We flew into San Antonio, all right?
Speaker A:Yeah, we fly into San Antonio, right?
Speaker A:We're in our paper jumpsuits, belly, you know, black box, right?
Speaker A:Get there, and they drive us to a place called Karn City, southeast of San Antonio.
Speaker A:All right?
Speaker A:They roll up to this place, right?
Speaker A:And this place looks like it was.
Speaker A:It was Geo at the time.
Speaker A:That's the kind.
Speaker A:It was a private prison.
Speaker A:It was called Geo.
Speaker A:Well, you walk into this place, and there's no windows on any of it, okay?
Speaker A:We just came from Idaho.
Speaker A:We're.
Speaker A:You're spoiled in Idaho.
Speaker B:Prison system kind of chilling here.
Speaker A:Yeah, you're definitely spoiled, right?
Speaker A:So we get that.
Speaker A:We get there, and we're walking through the.
Speaker A:Through the hallways, and it's already all filled up, and there's that.
Speaker A:It's a federal holding spot.
Speaker A:So you got all the Texas boys, right?
Speaker A:All the Texas gangs, right?
Speaker A:And you're walking by, and they just see a bunch of white boys, right, Walking through.
Speaker A:They're probably like, what the hell is going on?
Speaker A:But this place was the dungeon.
Speaker A:Why they put you.
Speaker A:They put us in these.
Speaker A:In these holding cells.
Speaker A:And he had one little slab window in the back, right?
Speaker A:Little slab window to see anything.
Speaker A:And that place, we had nothing, right?
Speaker A:We went from having all our property to nothing, right?
Speaker A:And so what do we do?
Speaker A:We.
Speaker A:We buck back.
Speaker A:We're like.
Speaker A:Because we have rights.
Speaker A:You might not think it as a prisoner.
Speaker A:You have rights, okay?
Speaker A:And there's a certain sop.
Speaker A:It has to be followed, okay?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Some people know them better than others.
Speaker A:I mean, right?
Speaker A:You have.
Speaker A:You have those guys who know all.
Speaker A:Everybody have it all down to a T. And so the first thing we do, we start bucking back, all right?
Speaker A:We're all right.
Speaker A:Like, this is what the we want.
Speaker A:We don't get it, we're gonna buck back.
Speaker A:And I remember, we.
Speaker A:Yeah, we.
Speaker A:We all masked up our.
Speaker A:We masked up, popped all the sprinklers, flooded the whole place.
Speaker A:And we sat there, and the warden there.
Speaker A:He was old cowboy, right?
Speaker A:We flooded the Whole thing.
Speaker A:Threw the TV out the.
Speaker A:They had a flashcreen in the wall.
Speaker A:Throw it out the thing.
Speaker A:Broke it all in the hallway.
Speaker A:And we're all sitting there waiting for him to come.
Speaker A:He comes down there and it's flood.
Speaker A:He's walking up to his knees and he goes, what are you Idaho boys doing?
Speaker A:We're like, we have rights.
Speaker A:We don't know what we want, but we want something, you know, I want my box.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:We're like, dude, you know, we, you know, all this stuff.
Speaker A:We went from having everything.
Speaker A:We're.
Speaker A:Now we're stuck here.
Speaker A:What do we do for the.
Speaker A:You know?
Speaker A:He's like, man, all right, we'll make up a list of what you guys want.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:So we started making up these lists of what we want.
Speaker A:Okay, now we're ordering from Amazon in prison.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We're ordering from Amazon to this prison.
Speaker A:Okay,.
Speaker B:Hold on.
Speaker A:He didn't want to know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You guys are ordering off Amazon to get to prison.
Speaker A:Yeah, because they.
Speaker A:So they didn't have no.
Speaker A:So we.
Speaker A:We're allowed property.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And so at that moment, he's like.
Speaker A:He's like, man, like, he just letting us do what we want to do, you know, he's like, I just don't want no smoke.
Speaker A:Don't be.
Speaker A:I don't want no problems.
Speaker A:Order what you want, you know, so we're.
Speaker A:We're ordering black Nikes.
Speaker A:We're ordering Jordan stuff, right?
Speaker A:We're ordering, right.
Speaker A:All these things.
Speaker A:Yeah, this is wild.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:And then Idaho people are coming to visit, right?
Speaker A:Like the.
Speaker A:You know, and they're like, what is going on here?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like, what are you guys doing?
Speaker A:Oh, whatever.
Speaker A:They can have it, you know, Whatever makes them happy.
Speaker A:So we were there for.
Speaker A:I ended up getting used to it.
Speaker A:We had no TVs, nothing.
Speaker A:We're stuck in this little thing.
Speaker A:We'd go out 120°.
Speaker A:I'm doing burpees outside on the black.
Speaker A:I mean, on the asphalt.
Speaker B:Burning your hands.
Speaker A:Blisters on my hand.
Speaker A:I mean, 100, 120 degree weather, right?
Speaker A:We're.
Speaker A:We're down there doing our thing, drinking every single day.
Speaker A:We're making hooch every day there.
Speaker A:Making white lightning.
Speaker B:How are you making hooch in prison?
Speaker B:Walk me through this.
Speaker A:Just.
Speaker A:Oh, I mean, get your fruit grind, your apples down.
Speaker A:Make a.
Speaker A:Get your sugar.
Speaker A:Get your sugar right.
Speaker A:I mean, usually I like to.
Speaker A:I mean, you get a pound of sugar from the kitchen or.
Speaker A:I like orange sodas.
Speaker A:Orange sodas have the most sugar in it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Orange sodas have the most sugar.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:I use orange sodas with the sugar.
Speaker A:Get your kicker right?
Speaker A:Make you.
Speaker A:You make a little kicker.
Speaker B:What's a kicker?
Speaker A:Old, old fruit that's been like.
Speaker A:It's already like.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, okay.
Speaker A:Once you throw that in there, boom.
Speaker A:It'll kick it off.
Speaker B:Oh, no.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it'll go from.
Speaker A:You'll.
Speaker A:You'll.
Speaker A:You'll taste it.
Speaker A:Once it gets to that wine spot, you can't let it.
Speaker A:And if it goes too far, it'll turn into vinegar.
Speaker A:Make you let it cook too long.
Speaker B:No kidding.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:What's the most.
Speaker A:What's the word I'm looking for?
Speaker B:What's the most innovative thing that you learned in prison?
Speaker A:How to make orange chicken.
Speaker B:You learned how to make orange chicken in prison?
Speaker A:How I get down.
Speaker B:Yeah, walk me through this.
Speaker A:So, yeah, so you use pork rinds.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:So I love some.
Speaker A:So you're taking pork rinds, right?
Speaker A:Take about, like, five jellies.
Speaker A:Grape jellies.
Speaker A:Put those in there.
Speaker A:Massage it.
Speaker A:You gotta massage.
Speaker A:Do you want to break the pork rinds down?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Massage it right.
Speaker A:They're gonna come.
Speaker A:They're gonna use me.
Speaker A:Use orange juice.
Speaker A:Or you could take like a. I like a Kool Aid.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Back just a little bit, put in, and then you pour it in there.
Speaker A:It's gonna soak it up your hot sauce.
Speaker A:Whatever you want, you mean?
Speaker A:And then you.
Speaker A:Once you fold it up, the pork rinds, take it soaks all that in.
Speaker A:So that's your sweet and sour, right?
Speaker A:Then you go chop up some sausages.
Speaker A:You chop up some sausages, jalapenos on top of some rice.
Speaker A:And when you take that.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:After that, that pork rind, sit for about an hour.
Speaker A:You put that on top.
Speaker A:That's your Chinese food.
Speaker B:No kidding.
Speaker A:And they.
Speaker A:And those pork rinds, they taste just like orange chicken.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:You know, that was your favorite thing to make in there.
Speaker A:I loved it.
Speaker A:Everybody knows me for it.
Speaker A:So I had a different name for it.
Speaker A:I had a different name for it, but I'm not gonna say it because connects with my neighbor, my.
Speaker A:My neighborhood.
Speaker A:Hear me?
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:But somebody actually just wrote me a message from prison.
Speaker A:My buddy, he wrote me a message from prison.
Speaker A:Hey, how do you make that again?
Speaker A:He goes, I want to make.
Speaker A:I needed ingredients for it because I used to make it for everybody.
Speaker A:It was my thing, because I make it.
Speaker A:I made it just a little bit different than everybody else.
Speaker A:Yeah, I made it for everybody.
Speaker A:I had to make it for you guys one day.
Speaker A:I would 100 try it.
Speaker A:It's good.
Speaker A:It's funny.
Speaker A:It's fire.
Speaker B:I've watched some shows where they have.
Speaker B:They'll bring people have done a long time, and they'll just lay out everything that the commissary has and like, would you make out of this?
Speaker B:And watching how the mind works and they're able to just add ingredients and how they heat things up and cook.
Speaker A:Right now the, The.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The deep.
Speaker A:Was it the Dr.
Speaker A:The fryer?
Speaker A:The air fryer.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's my.
Speaker A:That's my best friend right now.
Speaker A:As.
Speaker A:As I've been out of prison, I'm air frying everything.
Speaker A:Once you go air fryer, there's no going back.
Speaker A:Yeah, dude.
Speaker B:They actually just came out, out with the whole thing on air fryers.
Speaker B:How horrible they are.
Speaker B:Now they come out with those glass air fryers and the wife's down to some rabbit holes with those.
Speaker B:Yeah, that is pretty hilarious.
Speaker B:So that you were known for orange chicken.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That was my thing.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:I think that's.
Speaker A:I mean, I've learned.
Speaker A:I've learned a lot of things in.
Speaker B:Prison, but what's one of the most bizarre things that you've learned in prison?
Speaker B:What is something that you look back on, not all your time and go, holy, that was wild.
Speaker A:How to make knives.
Speaker B:Okay, walk me through how to make a knife in prison.
Speaker A:You know, like, I think.
Speaker B:I guess my biggest question is, where do you get the metal?
Speaker A:Sometimes you don't need metal.
Speaker A:Toothbrush, paper bag.
Speaker B:You can make a knife out of.
Speaker A:A paper bag, out of a plastic bag.
Speaker A:How?
Speaker A:Melt that thing down.
Speaker B:Oh, and you just tap it every time it gets warm.
Speaker B:And you just until you have a.
Speaker B:A tube or.
Speaker A:That's as easy as that.
Speaker A:Look, I just said.
Speaker A:I said melt it down.
Speaker A:You already know how to do it.
Speaker B:You just get it just enough so.
Speaker A:It sticks and that turns hard.
Speaker B:You just roll it or what?
Speaker A:Once that thing turns hard?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:And you just sit and file it on the floor.
Speaker B:That's what people, I feel, don't understand about prisoners and how creative they get.
Speaker B:I learned it for being overseas and watching Iraq because they have nothing but time.
Speaker B:And the stuff that they would come up with in these aqueduct systems and how they can just build everybody.
Speaker A:Like, how do they figure this stuff out?
Speaker B:I'm like, bro, they sit here for thousands of years.
Speaker B:Over in the middle, he's just rotting away in the sun.
Speaker B:They got to figure out.
Speaker B:And I feel like that's a lot with prison because you have nothing but time to just figure this stuff out.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:Okay, so back to my original question.
Speaker B:Where are dudes finding.
Speaker B:Because you'll see some shanks, and they're like chunks of metal.
Speaker B:Where the fuck do you guys get this giant slab of metal that the CEOs aren't seeing this stuff?
Speaker A:They eventually see it.
Speaker A:I mean, it could be your bunk.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I've seen people take pieces off their bunk, right?
Speaker A:Oh, I see some.
Speaker A:Yeah, You'll.
Speaker A:You'll walk in, there'll be a big, you know, welded piece missing off the bunk.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, that was used somewhere.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:Huh.
Speaker A:You know, like, you know, I walk.
Speaker A:That's the first thing I do when I walk into a cell.
Speaker A:I examine everything in there.
Speaker A:I don't want to be told that, because they come in there and they see something missing.
Speaker A:They're looking at you.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So I want to make sure everything's accounted for, you know, because if you're.
Speaker A:If you.
Speaker A:If.
Speaker A:If they see something missing, they're looking at you now.
Speaker A:They're like, okay, where is it?
Speaker A:Where is it?
Speaker A:And if you're not.
Speaker A:Oh, I don't.
Speaker A:It's like, no, you have it.
Speaker A:So I want to make sure everything's accounted for first.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:You know, what was one of the.
Speaker B:Biggest life lessons that you learned inside the walls?
Speaker A:Accountability.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:With yourself.
Speaker A:Just with myself and understanding accountability, bro.
Speaker A:I think so.
Speaker A:When I.
Speaker A:We were in KS and then we ended up moving from Karns to Eagle Pass, Texas.
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker A:That's where they.
Speaker A:They moved all of us from Idaho to Eagle Pass.
Speaker A:Eagle Pass was a bigger facility.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So we get the Eagle Pass, and.
Speaker A:And we.
Speaker A:You talked about drug use.
Speaker A:I started using there.
Speaker B:Oh, inside.
Speaker A:How.
Speaker B:How are they getting it?
Speaker B:How do they get in?
Speaker A:The drugs in every staff member, especially there.
Speaker A:We're around the border, Eagle Pass.
Speaker A:You know, Eagle Passes all over the news.
Speaker A:That's where.
Speaker A:That's where all.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's where all the immigrants are coming over the border right there.
Speaker A:We can literally see from there.
Speaker A:We could see Mexico, the border from the yard.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:All those Idaho inmates there.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:You know, and we're.
Speaker A:And, yeah, we're going.
Speaker A:You know, most of CEOs there are coming from.
Speaker A:They're working.
Speaker A:They're from Mexico coming over the border to work and go back to Mexico.
Speaker A:It was a private prison.
Speaker A:It was still Geo.
Speaker A:And so the corruptions probably.
Speaker A:Oh, it was corrupt.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Super corrupt.
Speaker A:And I was getting high there.
Speaker A:I was getting super high, and that was where I was.
Speaker A:My big Homie.
Speaker A:And I had my.
Speaker A:I had my cell phone.
Speaker A:I had a cell phone in prison, right?
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I was talking to him every day.
Speaker A:Well, that was when that big indictment happened for him.
Speaker A:There was 14 of them on that indictment.
Speaker A:And he took off.
Speaker A:He took off to Costa Rica, right?
Speaker A:So he's in Costa Rica.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And that was reef.
Speaker A:The day he told me, I was, listen, I'm dying of cancer, like, And I'm here.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm not gonna die in the hands of the enemy.
Speaker A:He goes, my wife came, which.
Speaker A:Tracy.
Speaker A:Her name's Tracy, and I love her to death, right?
Speaker A:She ended up leaving.
Speaker A:She dropped him off.
Speaker A:She left.
Speaker A:The other.
Speaker A:All the other ones were already in jail.
Speaker A:He was by.
Speaker A:He was gone by himself out there.
Speaker A:And I got to talk to him a few times, right?
Speaker A:And that was when he told me, hey, neither I love you.
Speaker A:Everything that I've taught you, forget about it.
Speaker A:I want you to be a good father.
Speaker A:I want you to get out of prison.
Speaker A:And I was like, never has he ever spoke to me like that.
Speaker A: So I was like, this was: Speaker A:I was still in the.
Speaker A:I'm still doing my thing.
Speaker B:Yeah, you're full into it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm still doing my thing, and I'm okay.
Speaker A:I hear you.
Speaker B:Well, did you hear him, though?
Speaker A:I hear him now.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:But at that moment, I'm like, you know, and then he ends up dying the next day.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So they ended up finding him out there.
Speaker A:They took him and.
Speaker A:And they took him to the holding place out there, and he hung himself.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And his wife calls me, and she's dead.
Speaker A:You know, she knew it.
Speaker A:She told her, when you come back to.
Speaker A:When you come back out here, you'll be coming to get my ashes.
Speaker B:Damn.
Speaker A:You know, his mind.
Speaker A:He wanted to go out.
Speaker A:You know, he wanted to go out in battle because he wanted.
Speaker A:He wanted.
Speaker A:Well, he wanted to go to Valhalla.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That's where he was at.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So that was a big.
Speaker A:You know, that was.
Speaker A:That was.
Speaker A:That was a. I looked.
Speaker A:I idolized the man, you know?
Speaker A:I idolized him.
Speaker A:So that happened.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I was still using heavy, right?
Speaker A:In prison.
Speaker A:I, like, I was using heavy every single day.
Speaker A:Like, worse than I was on the streets at that moment in Eagle Pass, Texas.
Speaker B:So you're getting more drugs.
Speaker B:Are you doing more drugs inside of prison than you were doing on the.
Speaker B:On the street?
Speaker A:I was doing more drugs that you go past Texas and I.
Speaker A:And I know my mom's gonna watch this, right?
Speaker A:And this is the first time I.
Speaker A:My.
Speaker A:I've never told.
Speaker A:I never.
Speaker A:You mean, I've come out and said a lot of people know, right?
Speaker A:People that were there.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:I've never said that.
Speaker A:And my mom's gonna watch this.
Speaker A:She's gonna hear that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, like, I had a phone.
Speaker A:I had all that, and those were with Mom.
Speaker A:Like, I couldn't.
Speaker A:I wouldn't even call my mom from my phone.
Speaker A:No, no, because Mom.
Speaker A:Mom wants you.
Speaker A:Mom wants me to follow the rules.
Speaker B:Oh, so she didn't even want you reaching out on a cell phone in prison?
Speaker A:Oh, no.
Speaker B:So you're having to call her from the.
Speaker A:Call me from the pay phone, and I get it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, because you're obviously.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:You're doing something.
Speaker A:You mean, I could get you and, like, you know, and you're supposed to be, you know, so at that moment, like, I look back, I'm like, she's right for sure.
Speaker A:You know.
Speaker A:You know, I talk about, you know, I want to be there for my son and anybody.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:All these people, all of us, we.
Speaker A:We.
Speaker A:People in prison always say, oh, what do you.
Speaker A:What's your number one value?
Speaker A:Oh, my family.
Speaker A:But then we're doing things in prison.
Speaker B:To keep you away from.
Speaker A:They can keep you away from your family.
Speaker A:So how is family your number one value?
Speaker B:So what would you.
Speaker B:How would you answer that?
Speaker B:What was your number one value in prison?
Speaker B:Looking back on it now, what should have been your number one value?
Speaker A:What should have been my number one value?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:God.
Speaker A:I wasn't expecting that, but God wasn't in my life at that time.
Speaker A:Facts.
Speaker A:I thought I saw a Thor's hammer around my neck.
Speaker A:I thought I was a warrior.
Speaker A:I thought I was gonna die in Valhalla.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:So I guess my question is you've lived this whole entire life gang banging on the streets.
Speaker B:You got this mentor, the big homie that you've looked up to.
Speaker B:You get a call from him telling you to forget everything, raise a family, do the right.
Speaker B:Do the right thing, and then the next day he dies.
Speaker B:How did that set?
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And you've.
Speaker B:Now you're in.
Speaker B:You're deep into this system, and you're hearing your mentor that's raised you in this, along with your dad tell you, like, yo, dude, this is.
Speaker B:This isn't the life.
Speaker B:How are you processing that?
Speaker A:So I still.
Speaker A:Like I said, we're still in Eagle Pass at that moment, and I was still, like, heavily using.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Then I met this girl On Facebook that I knew from San Diego.
Speaker B:On Facebook while you're in prison.
Speaker B:You're scrolling Facebook.
Speaker A:Okay, so I seen this girl, right?
Speaker A:I seen this girl that.
Speaker A:When I was my.
Speaker A:When my stepdad was in the Navy and he was stationed in San Diego, there's this girl that.
Speaker A:From the sixth grade, I am connecting with her, and she's.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker A:So she sent me this picture of me and her as kids she had for 20 plus years.
Speaker A:I was.
Speaker A:Oh, man.
Speaker A:So I started getting to know her and.
Speaker A:And, like, there was some, like, you know, there were some feelings there.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, I've ran game and done things.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:For years.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Pen pals.
Speaker A:And so we do in prison.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, and so I started talking to her, and then there was a little bit of, like, change.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I was still dealing with some things.
Speaker A:I was still using.
Speaker A:People were reaching out to me that were, you know, my big homies.
Speaker A:Homies.
Speaker A:And, you know, well, this is what it is, what we're doing.
Speaker A:And I'm like, yeah, okay.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:You know, I'm still living that life.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm still living that life.
Speaker A:And we end up.
Speaker A:This is during COVID So Covet comes, right?
Speaker A:So we're all locked on these tears with COVID right?
Speaker A:And every single one of us has Covid.
Speaker A:They say, hey, well, we're moving prisons.
Speaker A:We're taking.
Speaker A:We're taking you guys from here, and we're sending you to Arizona.
Speaker A:So they're sending us from a go to a cca, right?
Speaker A:And because Eagle Pass was not treating us, when Idaho came, Idaho would be like, what is going on here?
Speaker A:You know, whenever they ran out of water, they had to bring the Rio Grande waters in trash cans and drop it off for us to use.
Speaker A:Yeah, that was our.
Speaker A:Whenever the water went out, which was all the time, they would bring trash cans of Rio Grande water, drop it off on the tier, and that was what.
Speaker A:What we used to bathe.
Speaker A:Everything.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And what prison was this?
Speaker A:This is an Eagle Pass, and this.
Speaker B:Is a private prison.
Speaker B:That's how they're able to get away with this.
Speaker B:What's the biggest difference between a private prison and a federally run prison?
Speaker B:I mean, is there.
Speaker B:Is.
Speaker B:Is it night and day, or is.
Speaker A:It all kind of private prisons is for.
Speaker A:All right, They're.
Speaker B:They're the state ones, aren't.
Speaker A:They're storing.
Speaker A:I mean, they're.
Speaker A:They're making money off every state.
Speaker A:Every state's paying private prisons to house their inmates because they're overcrowded.
Speaker A:So, I mean, if you were.
Speaker A:If you were a bed man, put my money.
Speaker A:I mean, like, you know, that's where the money's at.
Speaker A:They're putting their money in these private prisons, and they're making profit off housing inmates, you know, so you're just used.
Speaker B:And abused in the system.
Speaker B:Why are they moving you guys around so much?
Speaker A:Because contracts.
Speaker A:So, like, I mean, if there.
Speaker A:There was a breach of contract, they weren't.
Speaker A:They weren't fulfilling the contract that they told Idaho, hey, this is, you know, like, we need you to take care of our.
Speaker A:Our inmates at this level.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they were, and they weren't.
Speaker B:What was the point of in Idaho getting rid of you originally?
Speaker A:Because they're overcrowded.
Speaker B:Oh, so.
Speaker B:So that's how it works.
Speaker B:Of Idaho's a little bit overcrowded.
Speaker B:Then they will get a number of guys at a prison in another state can house, and they just.
Speaker B:Off you go then.
Speaker B:Now they're just shuffling people around constantly.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like right now, they sent 200.
Speaker A:I don't know how many they sent out.
Speaker A:They sent out another few hundred people to Arizona because they're overcrowded.
Speaker B:Interesting.
Speaker B:Okay, so back to big homie tells you everything.
Speaker B:Now you're getting new.
Speaker B:Moved to a new prison.
Speaker B:Where does this change where you're the.
Speaker B:I don't want to say the aha moment, because it.
Speaker B:I. I don't.
Speaker B:Unless it just clicks for you one day and you wake up in prison like, okay, I got to get my life on track.
Speaker B:Where did it start to turn for the.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So when we get to.
Speaker A:I get to Arizona and no more drugs.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:I get there, I'm kicking drugs.
Speaker B:How was that kicking drugs in prison?
Speaker A:I mean, a lot easier than the streets.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:I mean, you're just in your cell.
Speaker A:You're right.
Speaker A:Like, I kick drugs there.
Speaker A:And there was a moment where my mom was like, hey, like, I just want to see you do one thing right.
Speaker A:I'm like, well, what's that?
Speaker A:I just want to see you get your genie.
Speaker A:I've been asking you for years.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Get your genie.
Speaker A:Well, I was.
Speaker A:I'll try.
Speaker A:Well, remember I'm.
Speaker A:So now I'm in this Arizona prison.
Speaker A:Remember what I told you when I was in California?
Speaker A:I was in the Arizona prison.
Speaker A:They're right next door to each other.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:So the new deputy warden at this prison used to be the gang officer at the California prison I was at in Arizona.
Speaker A:So he knew you?
Speaker A:She knew me.
Speaker A:Yeah, she knew me.
Speaker B:Oh, okay.
Speaker A:So she came to me a few times.
Speaker A:Hey, like she said, what's the coincidence that you're here again with a different state now?
Speaker A:My issue is like, what are you gonna do different?
Speaker A:I started just running things to my mind.
Speaker A:Like, I got all these things going through my mind, right?
Speaker A:And I'm still, like, on the.
Speaker A:The verge about the GD thing.
Speaker A:I told my mom, yeah, I'll do it.
Speaker A:I'll do it, you know?
Speaker A:And one day, on my wall, I had Hitler, big homie.
Speaker A:These are all pictures on my wall.
Speaker A:I had all this philosophy in the back propaganda stacked up, like, all nice.
Speaker A:And she comes to my door, and I'm close custody.
Speaker A:So I'm max, Max points, right?
Speaker A:So I'm out of state, close custody.
Speaker A:So, I mean, I only get an hour out of my cell a day.
Speaker A:She comes to my door and she goes, hey, what are you gonna do different?
Speaker A:She's like, you're gonna be the same all the time.
Speaker A:And she's like, I remember the kid that I used to talk to.
Speaker A:And it started going through my mind tough.
Speaker A:Came back the next day, gave me a book.
Speaker A:This was the first self help book I ever read in my life.
Speaker A:And I speak about it all the time.
Speaker A:It was no excuses.
Speaker A:The Power of Self Discipline by Brian Tracy.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:She slides that book under my door.
Speaker A:I start reading the book.
Speaker A:Three days later, I rip everything off my wall.
Speaker A:I take all the books out, I take them out to the day room, and I give them to everybody.
Speaker A:That book was the first book I ever read.
Speaker A:From that point on, I started reading self help.
Speaker A:I was reading, you know, rich dad, Poor Dad.
Speaker A:You know, I had a guy there.
Speaker A:His name.
Speaker A:His name was Trevor Booth.
Speaker A:He's out.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:He's got out after 20 years.
Speaker A:He was there with me.
Speaker A:And I would go out to the daily room every day.
Speaker A:And, like, he was always studying.
Speaker A:Like, I was.
Speaker A:I was always up early but doing different stuff.
Speaker A:So now I was like.
Speaker A:I was like, sort of like dipping my toes in the water, okay?
Speaker A:Of like, you know, what it was like to be.
Speaker A:Because he was never.
Speaker A:He was never involved in things like this man, was never.
Speaker A:He never hung out with, like, the group of homeboys.
Speaker A:He was always on the side reading, write notes, right?
Speaker A:Like, you know, writing this journal and.
Speaker A:And doing that type of stuff.
Speaker A:You know, college from prison, right?
Speaker A:So I was like.
Speaker A:I'd always go out of these conversations with him.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:And then I was like, you know what?
Speaker A:I'm gonna try to go get my G.D. you know, I didn't get my G.D. first try.
Speaker B:Oh, no.
Speaker A:After I did that, I was like, oh, I'm smart.
Speaker A:I was like, you know, and I've never.
Speaker A:I. I always thought I couldn't do it.
Speaker A:You know me, I don't know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I was never in a place to do it.
Speaker A:I just never.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:I, Maybe I made all excuses in the world for sure, but I did it.
Speaker A:And I had the cap and gown on in prison.
Speaker B:Good for you.
Speaker A:Took a picture, right.
Speaker A: This was: Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:I believe.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I send this picture to my mom.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Made her happy.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, she was so happy.
Speaker A:And hearing in her voice, I was like, who?
Speaker A:Like, it made me.
Speaker A:I was all right.
Speaker A:Next thing, I said, you know what?
Speaker A:They have this electrical program.
Speaker A:I'm gonna hop in this electrical program.
Speaker A:So I started doing the electrical program.
Speaker A:So now I'm in class.
Speaker A:I've never done classes ever.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I've never been involved in it.
Speaker A:It was a.
Speaker A:No, No.
Speaker A:I didn't care what people said.
Speaker A:I'm leaving this here every day.
Speaker A:I didn't care what nobody said.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, all right, I'm gonna go do these things.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I don't know what it looks like, but I'm gonna go do it.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So now I'm coming back every single day.
Speaker A:I'm doing electrical.
Speaker A:I'm doing all this stuff.
Speaker A:And they had this.
Speaker A:This other class was called Inside Out Dad.
Speaker A:Remind you, I think we skipped a big part.
Speaker A:My son was born three days after I got arrested.
Speaker A:Oh,.
Speaker B:So you've missed a lot of that.
Speaker A:So my son was born.
Speaker A:I got arrested January 26th.
Speaker A:My son was born January 31st.
Speaker B:Did that weigh on you at all, or were you not in the right mindset to process any of that?
Speaker A:I, I, it weighed on me a lot, and I'm super blessed my mom has him.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:He's been in Pennsylvania this whole time.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:You know, I think that's a big part we missed.
Speaker A:Yeah, he's been.
Speaker A:He's in.
Speaker A:He's in Pennsylvania.
Speaker A:He's with my mom.
Speaker A:He's lived there his whole life.
Speaker A:You know, stepfather has another thing.
Speaker A:My stepfather took that on for me.
Speaker A:Stepfather told me when that was going down, he said, hey, we're doing whatever we can to get.
Speaker A:To get your boy.
Speaker A:You know, my mom adopted him, so he has my mom's last name, you know, and that had to be done.
Speaker A:There was a.
Speaker A:You know, and so I was super blessed in that, in that area.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:To have that.
Speaker A:But so I took Inside out, dad.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And With Inside out dad, it opened my mind just to, like, collaborating with a staff member, right?
Speaker A:Because I was in there with us with a.
Speaker A:With us.
Speaker A:He was a CEO, but he was a staff member.
Speaker A:And, like, this dude, he.
Speaker A:He liked me.
Speaker A:He was.
Speaker A:It was super cool.
Speaker A:And there's another man in there.
Speaker A:His name was.
Speaker A:His name was Robo.
Speaker A:He's a black guy, Muslim dreads, and meet him.
Speaker A:We bumped heads just because of the.
Speaker A:I would never even play basketball with him.
Speaker A:I would never do anything with him.
Speaker A:And through that class, I was like, man, this dude's actually all right.
Speaker A:He's actually pretty freaking smart.
Speaker A:You know, Me and him built a connection.
Speaker A:And then when that class was over, right, the teacher there was like, hey, I want to create an after Inside Out Dad.
Speaker A:I want you guys to.
Speaker A:To run it, or what?
Speaker A:We're like, what does that look like?
Speaker A:Because the prison in Arizona was half Idaho, half Hawaiian, so we had half Hawaii inmates, half Idaho inmates.
Speaker B:Interesting.
Speaker A:So he's like, I want you guys.
Speaker A:Anybody who graduates from Inside Out, Dan, I want you to be the filmer, and you to be the media guy, right?
Speaker A:And we're gonna.
Speaker A:What we're gonna do is create a program to where people could come in here, read a book to their kids on camera.
Speaker A:You guys edit it, we'll put it inside a thing, and we'll send it to the kids.
Speaker A:That's dope.
Speaker A:And so this was, like, my first time having purpose.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:I was like, you know, I'm like, okay, I'm doing something cool, you know, and I'm in there, like, helping the Hawaiian inmates read, because a lot of them don't know how to read.
Speaker A:A lot of the Hawaiian boys, they don't know.
Speaker A:They don't know how to read.
Speaker A:So I'm, like, showing them how to read, showing them where, you know, I'm getting the camera set up for them.
Speaker A:I'm doing it all for them, you know, super cool.
Speaker A:And collaborating with.
Speaker A:With that staff member and.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And the brother, you mean?
Speaker A:And so that was.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:That was something I. I've never, never done before.
Speaker B:And it was just that little bit of sense of purpose that when I say derailed you for the best way.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:Which is so.
Speaker B:It's so sad that so many guys are so lost.
Speaker B:And I'll speak for men.
Speaker B:Be in.
Speaker B:I feel the majority of it is a lack of purpose where we're chasing things, we're pursuing things we should never be after getting into our.
Speaker B:Into different groups and demographic, whatever we find ourselves.
Speaker B:So to hear that this employee in the prison just gives you an opportunity.
Speaker B:And this is what starts this whole entire chain reaction to lead us to you sitting in the seat is just this little bit of purpose to be able to help these guys.
Speaker B:How did that feel?
Speaker A:Oh, it felt good.
Speaker A:Because, I mean, it's.
Speaker A:It like he.
Speaker A:I still have the letters he wrote for me, right?
Speaker A:He has memos he had wrote for me, right.
Speaker A:And I use them to this day.
Speaker A:I have them.
Speaker A:And, like, he took that chance.
Speaker A:And so I was still close custody at that time.
Speaker A:So I'm doing this, right?
Speaker A:I'm involved in a lot of cool stuff going on at that prison, you know, making change, and I'm standing on my ground.
Speaker A:I. I stopped selling drugs in prison.
Speaker A:I stopped, you know, like, I went without, you know.
Speaker B:If you don't mind me asking, what.
Speaker B:Okay, now that you're.
Speaker B:You're.
Speaker B:You're peeling off, how is your crew?
Speaker B:How are the Idaho boys, the Aryan boy, whatever you're with, how are they looking at you trying to come up now inside the system?
Speaker B:Are they looking at it like this?
Speaker B:Are they noticing it at that?
Speaker A:At that moment?
Speaker A:Not so much, because I was still one foot in, one foot out.
Speaker B:Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker A:And that's just, you know, because I wanted to.
Speaker A:Want to do good, so I'm doing these cool things.
Speaker A:But I was still.
Speaker A:I'm still whisper.
Speaker A:I'm still.
Speaker A:Right, okay.
Speaker A:I'm still whisper from, right?
Speaker A:This is where I'm from.
Speaker A:Like, okay, you know, and so.
Speaker A:But I was standing on ground.
Speaker A:I was running my program.
Speaker A:Tough.
Speaker A:I was guiding.
Speaker A:I was, you know, I just wasn't 100 there yet.
Speaker A:And then there became a moment where I was still, like I said, still close custody.
Speaker A:And his name was Deputy Warden Grill.
Speaker A:He comes out, and he overlooked out of state contract.
Speaker A:And I went.
Speaker A:Sat down to table with him, and I said, look, I need you to give me back that.
Speaker A:He said, oh, I don't know, Michael.
Speaker A:Like, you know, I'm like, I get it.
Speaker A:Like, my track record's not good.
Speaker A:I get these things.
Speaker A:But, like, this is what I've been doing, right?
Speaker A:And he's like, ah, I don't know.
Speaker A:Well, he ended up connecting with.
Speaker A:He ended up connecting with the deputy ward.
Speaker A:And Debbie Warren's like, Michael's killing it.
Speaker A:He's like, so he comes back to his videos.
Speaker A:Look, want to take a chance on you, I'mma send you back.
Speaker A:I was still close custody, though.
Speaker B:Meaning you're locked up.
Speaker A:Yeah, so I guess so.
Speaker A:They put me on the plane, I end up.
Speaker A:I end up.
Speaker A:We took a bus back.
Speaker A:Oh God.
Speaker A:That was a 36 hour bus ride in C. Black box.
Speaker B:How does that feel?
Speaker A:Dude?
Speaker A:I thought, I literally thought I was going to die.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:There was a moment, there was a moment on that bus ride where I thought I was not going to make it.
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker B:Just miserable.
Speaker A:Just pain.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You're in pain.
Speaker A:You're just.
Speaker A:You mean just, you know, the bathroom all.
Speaker A:It's, it's.
Speaker B:The only reason I asked what that was like is because, and I'm not comparing anything, but I've taken military flights, like kitted out where you're stuck and you're crammed and you're holding gear or weapon, whatever, and you got.
Speaker B:And you're sitting for hours and hours and it is the most uncomfortable pain.
Speaker B:Your back, your things start locking up.
Speaker B:You sound like you could just get up, stretch your legs and move around.
Speaker B:So I'm not comparing my time in the military to be belly cuffs.
Speaker B:And I don't know if your leg restraints at that point or not, but.
Speaker A:You got, you got, it's.
Speaker A:You have the language straights.
Speaker A:They're biting into the back of your.
Speaker B:Skin and then you're probably chained to the floor.
Speaker B:Do you have, do they have the loops on the floor of this one or.
Speaker A:No floor, but you're in a paper jumpsuit, no socks.
Speaker B:Right cuff is just on your, your ankle bones.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:30 Some hours you're just miserable.
Speaker B:And they ain't stopping if you got a piss.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:Are dudes just pissing?
Speaker A:They have a bathroom in the back, which is nasty.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So just as an outsider, when you're taking this ride, this 36 hour ride back, you're probably excited because you get.
Speaker B:They're trusting you.
Speaker B:But on that ride, is there a come to Jesus moment where you're just thinking to yourself, God, this sucks.
Speaker B:Like, I'm never doing this again or is this just part of your life at this point?
Speaker A:I mean, no, there's a moment where you're like, this doesn't make you not come back to prison now.
Speaker A:I don't know what will.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:You know, there's a, there's a bunch of those though.
Speaker A:But yeah, you know, you have your life.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But yeah.
Speaker A:So I get back, I get back to Idaho.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:And I go straight to the hole.
Speaker A:I'm close custody.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker A:So I go.
Speaker A:They send me to the yard, which is isci.
Speaker A:It's the yard here.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:The ICC and the ic.
Speaker A:The ISCI they call it the yard.
Speaker A:I get there, I go straight to the hole and I'm stuck back there and in the hole for months.
Speaker A:That's close custody, right.
Speaker A:But I got my property back there.
Speaker A:They ended up giving my property.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And remember, I gathered all that cool stuff.
Speaker A:So they kept it all.
Speaker A:Some of it, yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because some of it's.
Speaker A:You can't be having.
Speaker A:But one cool thing I had was I had a 19 inch TV.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And so the normal TVs are 13 inches and they're clear.
Speaker A:Mine was a 19 inch flat screen RCA.
Speaker A:So it was like, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I was like balling with that.
Speaker A:Prison balling.
Speaker A:But most stuff they took, right?
Speaker A:And it is what it is.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:As long as, you know, as long as they don't take your pictures.
Speaker A:Those are, I mean, those are things you can't, you know, those are, those are things you gather over years.
Speaker A:Some.
Speaker A:Some of those pictures will never be replaceable for sure.
Speaker A:You know.
Speaker A:But yeah, so we get, I get back, I'm back there the whole time.
Speaker A:And so now I'm back there.
Speaker A:And in this time there was a guy, his name was Soup.
Speaker A:Back in the days, Calm Soup.
Speaker A:He'd been down 20 at that.
Speaker A:At that time it was 20 years, right?
Speaker A:Now he's at 22 years.
Speaker A:And he been one of them dudes the whole time.
Speaker A:And what I mean by one of them dudes, like, like giving, giving staff a problem.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:A problem with.
Speaker A:In institutions.
Speaker A:And then on my eyes, a good way.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You know, and by heard over.
Speaker A:Over the grave on that.
Speaker A:Hey, like he's killing it.
Speaker A:I'm.
Speaker A:What do you guys mean?
Speaker A:Like change his life.
Speaker A:This is what he's doing.
Speaker A:He's over at, he's at the farm right now.
Speaker A:And how do you get to the farm?
Speaker A:Like, because the farms where you get.
Speaker B:To go out on work release, right?
Speaker A:So the Farm.
Speaker A:Yeah, they have work release there because it's minimum security.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's opened up, right.
Speaker A:I'm like, how's that man?
Speaker A:How's he over there?
Speaker B:But you're watching a dude that's been fighting the system his whole life locked away.
Speaker B:Now he's making moves on the outs.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And there.
Speaker A:He's part of the peer mentor program.
Speaker A:I'm like, pure mentor program.
Speaker A:What is.
Speaker A:I'm.
Speaker A:What is that?
Speaker A:I. I don't get it.
Speaker A:You know, and they're all.
Speaker A:Well, you'll see.
Speaker A:Like, you know, so I.
Speaker A:They're all just writing Noel Barlo.
Speaker A:I'm like, so she was the warden there.
Speaker A:I'm like, those writers.
Speaker A:So I'm writing this.
Speaker A:I'm writing her letters.
Speaker A:Hey, please, like, give me an opportunity.
Speaker A:This is what I want.
Speaker A:Because I. I want to do good.
Speaker A:I want it so bad.
Speaker A:She said, well, once your points drop, get at me, like, that's not a good enough answer.
Speaker A:I'm writing back, like, no, like.
Speaker A:And this is what I want.
Speaker A:I want to be a part of these things, you know, that you got going on over at your facility, you know?
Speaker A:And so one day, like, I am getting rolled up, right?
Speaker A:One day, they roll me up.
Speaker A:Hey, you're going to the farm.
Speaker B:Just like that.
Speaker A:Just like that.
Speaker A:I'm like, what?
Speaker A:Pack my stuff.
Speaker A:I show up to the farm.
Speaker A:The first day, I roll up into the chow hall.
Speaker A:In that point, as soon as I got there, I was like, look, obviously, I'm gonna find this dude.
Speaker A:I'm gonna find this guy, and I'm gonna.
Speaker A:I want what he has, man.
Speaker A:Because I. I heard, like, I walk up to him in the chow hall.
Speaker A:I said, hey, bro.
Speaker A:I said, my name is.
Speaker A:I mean, I've been hearing about you for years.
Speaker A:I've never been around you.
Speaker A:I was like, but I heard that you're.
Speaker A:This is what you're doing.
Speaker A:I want it.
Speaker A:He's like, you sure?
Speaker A:100.
Speaker A:Not even the next.
Speaker A:Next week.
Speaker A:I'm facilitating Today Matters by John C. Maxwell.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:He throws me right into the fire.
Speaker A:Because you want it.
Speaker A:Okay, cool.
Speaker A:I'm gonna show you.
Speaker A:That's what we do.
Speaker A:I'm.
Speaker A:You know.
Speaker A:You know, John C. Maxwell is right.
Speaker A:I'm facilitating a John C. Maxwell class.
Speaker A:Never done nothing.
Speaker A:I'm in this group of individuals.
Speaker A:I'm facilitating a class.
Speaker A:I'm like, I have no idea.
Speaker A:You have to do it.
Speaker A:You know, I'm reading the facilitator notes on this book, right?
Speaker A:This man threw me into the fire.
Speaker A:Right on my.
Speaker A:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker A:You know, So I, like.
Speaker A:I got thrown right into it, right?
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And they're like, we built a cool peer mentor program at that facility, where obviously, like, there's a curriculum to that program as well.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Which is the mentor program.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's about 10 weeks.
Speaker A:You go through it, and, you know, you're learning how to advocate for people, how to.
Speaker A:You know, just down the list of things of how to help the next man around you.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And so we built a good community within the prison there.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We're already building.
Speaker A:It was super cool, like, the vibe there.
Speaker A:Just the brotherhood of People wanting to do good.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like, we were having little classes just for us.
Speaker A:People come, they could share their weeks.
Speaker A:And this is in prison.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm.
Speaker A:Oh, this is like, cool, you know?
Speaker A:And then James was like, hey, like, we got this.
Speaker A:This rise thing going on.
Speaker A:I'm like.
Speaker A:He's like.
Speaker A:And then he said, let's go talk to Steve.
Speaker A:Like, told Steve about you.
Speaker A:And Steve is Steve Stelzer.
Speaker A:Okay, so he's a lieutenant at the time.
Speaker B:Got it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And before that, he told.
Speaker A:He was a gang investigator for years.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So I go up there and I'm.
Speaker A:I'm meeting him, I'm talking to him.
Speaker A:And all the staff at that time are like, don't trust Michael.
Speaker A:Don't trust Michael.
Speaker A:They're telling James, don't trust Michael.
Speaker A:He's going to bring you back to your old ways.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I'm hearing this, I'm like, is.
Speaker B:That defeating for you?
Speaker A:100 At that time, I'm like, dude, this.
Speaker A:This is hard, you know, this is.
Speaker B:Hard because you're truly trying to.
Speaker B:Okay, I gotta change my.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, like, you're actually have to speak for themselves at that time.
Speaker A:My actions haven't spoke for themselves there, you know, I'm just telling somebody.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And Steve was the only.
Speaker A:He looked me in my eyes one day, he goes, hey, can I trust you?
Speaker A:And I was like, I don't know.
Speaker A:Can't.
Speaker A:In my mind, I'm like, can he trust me?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:That's a bit.
Speaker B:That's a big question to be able to have to answer yourself in there, right?
Speaker A:Like, can.
Speaker A:Can this man trust me?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like, said really truly, like, with whatever he's gonna.
Speaker A:Am I truly ready to do this?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:And I looked in his eyes, I said, yes, you can trust me.
Speaker A:Shook his hand.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:That's like signing a contract with me right there.
Speaker A:I said, all right.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:I'm fight for you.
Speaker A:And he did.
Speaker A:And that's when he came with us.
Speaker A:This is my vision.
Speaker A:I have a vision.
Speaker A:We're like, what is it?
Speaker A:I want to create a program that brings staff and residents together in one room.
Speaker B:For what purpose?
Speaker A:To collab.
Speaker A:I want.
Speaker A:I want collaboration.
Speaker A:That's that.
Speaker A:And that's his biggest thing.
Speaker A:He loves collaboration between people.
Speaker B:So he wants to bring inmates and CEOs to collab together to figure out problems, to figure out rehabilitation leadership.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:They want leaders inside of the correctional facility.
Speaker B:As far as inmates that are taking.
Speaker B:Taking charge.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:So we want people to take charge of their own Lives for sure.
Speaker A:That's what I want.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Because you just.
Speaker A:I mean, it's the same thing like you have.
Speaker A:As much as we're trying to help residents, because that's.
Speaker A:They change.
Speaker A:It's not inmates.
Speaker B:It's not inmates anymore.
Speaker B:Residents.
Speaker A:Okay, Right.
Speaker A:So as much as we're trying to change, we want to help residents understand their leadership skills.
Speaker A:The staff need the same thing, for sure.
Speaker A:Staff have no idea.
Speaker A:Most of the staff in there have no idea why they're even doing the job.
Speaker B:I 100 believe that.
Speaker A:So when you put staff.
Speaker A:So as much as we need it, they need it as well.
Speaker A:And that was.
Speaker A:That was noticed.
Speaker A:So what can we do?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So I was like, okay.
Speaker A:So we started building curriculum to the program.
Speaker A:And at that time, he took three women from the women's prison, three men from the men's prison, you being one of them.
Speaker A:Huh?
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And he would bring us.
Speaker A:And we would go to admin.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Administration, and we would collaborate on whatever ideas we had going on.
Speaker A:This brainstorm, what does this look like?
Speaker A:And all we were working with at that time is books.
Speaker B:Okay, so you guys are sitting down with the admin as these three.
Speaker B:Or they actually got six women and six males.
Speaker B:Or three and three.
Speaker B:Sorry, three and three.
Speaker B:They got three females, three males to come in and sit with the admin of this prison.
Speaker B:Are you.
Speaker B:What are you presenting to them?
Speaker B:Like, how are you pitching this?
Speaker A:What?
Speaker B:What.
Speaker B:What is this?
Speaker A:We're not pitching nothing.
Speaker A:It's already.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So Steve Stelzer.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:He was already on the team.
Speaker A:He sold.
Speaker A:He's the creator.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Then we ended up pulling up.
Speaker A:Her name is Shelby.
Speaker A:She was a sergeant.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:She was part of.
Speaker A:She's part of the board.
Speaker A:She's part of our foundation.
Speaker A:And there was Justin, which is a corporal.
Speaker A:That was ours.
Speaker A:So there was three of them.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:We just started brainstorming.
Speaker A:We didn't have to pitch nothing to anybody.
Speaker A:What are you brainstorming as far as, you know, what that curriculum is going to look like, the idea, the layout, how are we going to present this?
Speaker A:How is this going to be okay?
Speaker A:How's this even going to be a thing?
Speaker A:Got it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So at first, like I said, we worked on that curriculum.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That curriculum started with self discovery, self development.
Speaker A:So in the beginning, we want to.
Speaker A:We want people to understand their communication styles.
Speaker A:How do you speak?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We have a thing is brown, blue, green and red.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And there are different communications.
Speaker A:I'm a brown.
Speaker A:I'm very direct, very aggressive.
Speaker A:My downfalls I'm argumentative.
Speaker A:Right, Right.
Speaker B:Depending on who you ask if that's.
Speaker B:If that's a downfall or not.
Speaker A:But, yeah, you know, I'm competitive.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That's my community.
Speaker A:I'm straight to the point I need.
Speaker A:If someone's communicating with me, only way I get it done is someone's like, hey, this is what we're doing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:All right, cool.
Speaker A:If someone beats around the bush, it's.
Speaker A:It's hard for me.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So we, like, it starts with self discovery, self development.
Speaker A:We go into life skills, entrepreneurship, re entry into leadership.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:These are eight modules.
Speaker A:Four sessions a module.
Speaker A:So four weeks each.
Speaker A:I mean, there's.
Speaker A:Each session's a week.
Speaker A:But in the beginning, all we were doing it took two years.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because we're going through it.
Speaker B:We're.
Speaker A:We're.
Speaker A:We're going through these books and leadership books and trying to find out the avenues of how to put it together.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I never built slides before.
Speaker A:I never built a presentation.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, I never built a program.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, but thank God we had.
Speaker A:I had the ladies there, you know, and that was where sort of where the God thing started coming into play.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:How so?
Speaker A:Because every single time we would go there, it'd be like, michael, this is a blessing.
Speaker B:What's a blessing?
Speaker A:You know, we're sitting up here together like men and women in a prison.
Speaker A:Sitting here together, like, and we're collaborating on building a class for men and women.
Speaker A:Like, you know, I'm like.
Speaker A:I kept, like, pushing out, pushing off.
Speaker A:Pushing off.
Speaker A:But I was listening.
Speaker A:I was listening for sure.
Speaker A:And through that, while we were building the program.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Because we didn't know what it looked like yet.
Speaker A:We haven't had a class yet.
Speaker A:We haven't had nothing.
Speaker A:So, like, we didn't really know what we were doing.
Speaker A:Doing.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We're just building a curriculum for a program that's supposed to benefit staff and residents.
Speaker A:So we don't know what the end math was supposed to look like.
Speaker A:We don't know what the classroom looks like.
Speaker A:So through that, we had the ability to take.
Speaker A:Train the trainer.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So Steve got us involved with train the trainer, which his staff takes.
Speaker A:It qualifies you as a certified facilitator in the state of Idaho.
Speaker A:So we got to take.
Speaker A:Train the trainer.
Speaker A:So I got to be.
Speaker A:Learn how.
Speaker A:How to present myself on in a classroom, how to present a class, how to be on stage.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, we took the class that they take.
Speaker A:So to be able to facilitate a class.
Speaker A:So that's How I ended up becoming CPR certified as a trainer through that class in the prison, while I'm in prison.
Speaker A:Got it.
Speaker A:We were the first.
Speaker A:We were the first group.
Speaker A:Us six were the first group to ever take train to trainer that were inmates.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:Okay, okay.
Speaker A:That was number one.
Speaker A:So then as we're building this, we're building the curriculum, and we're like, you know, we have all these questions and these answers, and it's already.
Speaker A:Before we even launched it, people were intrigued by what we're doing, what it looks like.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We have people coming from outside, like, seeing what it is.
Speaker A:Her name is a Melody creature.
Speaker A:So she is the supervisor of the training for all idoc.
Speaker A:Okay, Right.
Speaker A:And to me, she's like.
Speaker A:When she speaks, she's stoic.
Speaker A:She's.
Speaker A:She speaks with meaning, intention, you know, like, very intentional.
Speaker A:She does the courageous leadership for IDOC.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So to be able to promote an IDOC, you have to start with emerging leaders leadership 100, 200, and then 300.
Speaker A:So to be able to even promote at.
Speaker A:To a corporal, you have to at least take, like, emerging leaders 100.
Speaker A:To be able to become a warden, you have to be all the way to 300.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Well, there's people that have been in the department for 15 years, and they never.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:You have to want it.
Speaker A:You have to sign up.
Speaker A:It's a want.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Not a lot of people have that.
Speaker A:Me and the.
Speaker A:My.
Speaker A:My board of Rise, we've taken all the way to 300.
Speaker B:Oh, no.
Speaker A:So we graduated emerging leaders leadership 100, 200 and 300.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So we had that blessing to go do that while we were incarcerated.
Speaker A:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:First ones to ever do it.
Speaker B:Good for you.
Speaker A:Through that, we started taking some of those.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We're like, okay, like this.
Speaker A:Like, crucial conversations, like, emotional intelligence.
Speaker A:All these things that we're learning.
Speaker A:Like, you know, this.
Speaker A:Can we pick some of these?
Speaker A:And so we started implementing it in some of our.
Speaker A:While we're building this program.
Speaker B:Oh, so you're using your advanced classes that.
Speaker B:You're the first ones learning this stuff in it.
Speaker B:And then as you're going through your.
Speaker B:You're thinking, oh, this is actually really good curriculum.
Speaker B:And then you're just putting it into your.
Speaker B:Making it your.
Speaker B:Your own and building out those courses or different tiers of that.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:And with that, and without, you know, disrespecting the.
Speaker A:The copyright on.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:On theirs.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But yeah, because we want to create a.
Speaker A:We want to create a program to where that rise is just as meaningful as taking leadership 300 as a correctional officer.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Copyright.
Speaker B:Like, who cares about that if it's.
Speaker B:If it's benefiting whoever on the inside?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I don't think anybody's going to care if you guys pirated some curriculum to use for your own.
Speaker A:So while we're.
Speaker A:While we're building this, I'm building relationships right now.
Speaker A:I have.
Speaker A:Now I'm building relationships with staff, right?
Speaker A:And at that time, we had Noel Barlow.
Speaker A:She was warden, and we have Alicia Carver as deputy warden.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And there's a piece of advice Alicia Carver gave me.
Speaker A:Take life on like a buffalo.
Speaker A:She goes, don't ever back down to nothing.
Speaker A:Take it on like a buffalo.
Speaker A:When the storm comes, you go, right?
Speaker A:And I'm like, okay.
Speaker A:And I started building, like, building relationships, building rapport with them, right?
Speaker A:And there was a little bit of trust.
Speaker A:Like, one day, Noel came to me when she was very skeptical, skeptical of me.
Speaker A:And she said, hey, like, I'm proud of you,.
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker B:How often did you hear that as a kid?
Speaker A:I never.
Speaker A:I mean, how often your dad tell you that?
Speaker A:Not often.
Speaker A:And not because he.
Speaker A:I don't know, maybe he didn't.
Speaker A:I never put myself in situations to do things to really be proud of.
Speaker B:That's what I'm saying.
Speaker B:So to be a grown man now, making a difference, actually applying yourself and then reaping this reward to have these deputy wardens, wardens and all this stuff now putting a light on you for what you're doing and.
Speaker B:And building a trust and educating yourself and helping with this program that's about to be a pretty.
Speaker B:A pretty cool moment.
Speaker A:And especially coming from her, because she.
Speaker A:She doesn't.
Speaker A:You never.
Speaker A:You can never read her, okay.
Speaker A:She's one of those ladies.
Speaker A:It's like, very.
Speaker A:I wonder if she's mad at me or she's not, you know, so when she gives you a compliment, you're like.
Speaker A:You're like, yes.
Speaker A:You know, so obviously, hearing that from her was big.
Speaker A:But the relationship I was building with Steve at that moment was very big.
Speaker A:There was a question asked to me, and I spoke about it earlier.
Speaker A:Who do you see as a leader?
Speaker A:And I couldn't give an answer.
Speaker A:I had no idea.
Speaker A:I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker A:Like, I can think of a bunch of negative people.
Speaker A:They're like, no.
Speaker A:Like, you need to think of one.
Speaker A:So I went.
Speaker A:It went a few months, and one day, it was my first time leaving.
Speaker A:I was incarcerated on minimum security.
Speaker A:We could be with staff.
Speaker A:We went and did a.
Speaker A:A job fair at icc.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And then from the job fair, he said, hey, we're gonna go, we're gonna go out to eat.
Speaker A:And so it's my first time leaving the prison.
Speaker A:So we leave, we go into town.
Speaker A:So I'm in the, I'm in the van with him, me and a few other buddies, I'm with Steve and we get to Albertsons and I'm standing Albertsons.
Speaker A:It's my first time out of prison, right.
Speaker A:And I'm like super shocked, you know, And I look at Steve and I go, and I started tearing up a little bit.
Speaker A:I want to let you know something.
Speaker A:He goes, well, I look to you as a leader.
Speaker A:And he was looked at me, he goes, you serious?
Speaker A:Yeah, you're a leader to me.
Speaker A:And, and I was shocked because like he's a lieutenant of a prison.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Here you are.
Speaker A:I'm telling this man, he's a leader to me.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But like he does, like, he, he leads at a high, high level.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And at that moment, that's because obviously you have moments in life where people are leaders to you.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:But at that moment, like the things he was doing with us would rise and, and putting the trust in us.
Speaker A:And when everybody around was like, don't do it, don't do it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:He was like, yeah, I'm gonna, you know, I'll take a chance on this guy, you know, and it showed me, like, because you have to do that in life in general, sometimes you have to take chances, you know, and my backfire on you sometimes, but sometimes it's going to pay out, you know, and it did.
Speaker A:Like, he took that chance and I built so many relationships and reports with people because of him.
Speaker A:He put me in a position to where now I'm like, I have created these things and like I, I'm always aware of myself when I go places because I'm like, okay, like, I don't want someone to tell him, I told you so.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, I respect that.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker A:What he did for me, it's good.
Speaker B:Self accountability check too.
Speaker B:Knowing that these people put so much trust in you to be able to get to this position, to where you are, and then the last thing you want to do is screw this up because then now that's a ripple effect.
Speaker B:And correct me if I'm wrong, because all the other guys that are trying to come up now, better their life, it almost puts a shadow, throw shade on them because put all this trust in you and then now you just all over that.
Speaker B:So that's a big Self accountability check to put you, keep you in place.
Speaker B:Because now it's just, that'll just be.
Speaker B:It'll be a house of cards.
Speaker B:You know, you pull one of those cards out and you know, it's like, well, was this program actually working?
Speaker B:Should we be trusting these guys?
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And at that moment, like, so I'm there.
Speaker A:Me and James are, you know, he's my, he's my ace deuce.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And we're dealing and I'm doing.
Speaker A:Obviously people are like, you know, we're walking compound.
Speaker A:We're going to admin.
Speaker A:People are watching.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, I made that decision.
Speaker A:Like, I don't, you know, I have to.
Speaker A:I'm ready for change.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:This is what I'm doing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, I'm going to create change.
Speaker A:I'm going to create impact.
Speaker A:I'm going to create leaders.
Speaker A:Because we have all these people that are in prison that don't realize, like, yeah, they've been leaders already in a negative way for so long.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, you're already a leader.
Speaker A:It might be in a negative way.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But you have leadership skills.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Let's transform it into something positive.
Speaker A:And that's what we wanted to do with this program.
Speaker A:We wanted people to enter some people to build the confidence because they're, they're insecure and they, and they don't even know.
Speaker A:Then some of the people who are just leaders already in negative ways, let's transform it into something different.
Speaker A:And so like, that was what we're present.
Speaker A:But like when I was at the farm, when I was there, like, I dealt with a lot, like, you know, a lot of people just, you know, bagging, you know, you guys are doing this.
Speaker A:Oh, f. You guys, you got, you know, I mean, it's like, did you start getting.
Speaker B:I mean, now that the ball's rolling in this program, where's with.
Speaker B:I keep on say inmates, but inmates and CEOs.
Speaker B:Are you starting to get some backlash from the inside the walls people that you're dealing with?
Speaker B:Are they.
Speaker B:Are they jealous of this or are they all supportive of it?
Speaker B:How's.
Speaker B:How's that going?
Speaker A:You'll have people who really know what you've been through and have been there with you.
Speaker A:Yeah, they'll rock with you.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, yeah, someone who's been through the, through the gutter, who's actually been at the places that you've been at, they're gonna be like, bro, that's.
Speaker A:That's sick.
Speaker A:The ones who have it are the ones who are running your name to the.
Speaker A:To the.
Speaker A:To the ground.
Speaker B:And that's why they're still sitting there.
Speaker A:And making no changes, you know, so while we're doing that, I had a suit in prison.
Speaker A:I was wearing this.
Speaker A:I was walking off compound, right?
Speaker A:I was walking off compound.
Speaker A:And this is.
Speaker A:This is what happened.
Speaker A:Like, this is where, when me and James, we would leave compound, we put our suits on and we walk through the prison to the front gate in a suit to go teach class.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And the reason why I did it, I never wore a suit ever in my life.
Speaker A:You know, Steve.
Speaker A:Steve helped me go get a suit, and he was there with me.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:I mean, like, and he put the suit on me, and it was the first time I ever wore a suit.
Speaker A:And there is, there is, there is.
Speaker A:I don't know the feeling, but when you put that on, you have purpose and you have meaning, and you demand the.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:You know, and when I walk into a room, people are looking and you feel it, right?
Speaker A:And it makes you feel good.
Speaker A:And that's why we did it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It wasn't.
Speaker A:It wasn't too, like, it wasn't rehearsed.
Speaker A:Get some people.
Speaker A:We would do, like, meetings sometimes.
Speaker A:Yeah, but.
Speaker A:Oh, just rehearse and see.
Speaker A:Like, no, like, they.
Speaker A:They, like, they like to dress like that.
Speaker A:And I'm like, yeah, like, I enjoy it.
Speaker A:I. I look for any opportunity I can to wear this thing.
Speaker B:Well, it's just a level of professionalism and.
Speaker B:And obviously, what you guys are doing, you want to be able to show, hey, staff, we're trusted.
Speaker B:We're professionals.
Speaker B:We're.
Speaker B:We're in this because we.
Speaker B:We see the difference it's making in us.
Speaker B:We want this to go to everybody else, obviously, with this collaboration, this bridge that's being gapped between both sides of the prison system.
Speaker B:Like, it's a pretty important thing.
Speaker B:Like, you guys are literally spearheading this program and paving the way for everything behind you guys.
Speaker A:And so there was.
Speaker A:Dude.
Speaker A:So we had a couple.
Speaker A:So while we're creating this, we're doing this.
Speaker A:We're going through this motions and dealing with the backlash, dealing whatever, you know, and, yeah, you deal with the.
Speaker A:There was a moment in there where I was still.
Speaker A:I was still whisper, right?
Speaker A:And that was why I told you, like, this program helped me reclaim my identity right inside prison.
Speaker A:Because a lot of people say, hey, I'm going to do good until I. I'm going to be a gangster until I get out.
Speaker A:And once I get out, I'll do good.
Speaker A:That's always it in my mind, like, no, it started.
Speaker A:It had to start.
Speaker A:Then the first day of your rest of your life starts now.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so I made it.
Speaker A:I made a commitment.
Speaker A:I was like, I'm no longer.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Whispers of a past of mine.
Speaker A:I was my nickname.
Speaker A:I'm Michael.
Speaker A:Like, you know, I had to regain that identity.
Speaker A:I've been called Michael since I was a kid.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, and being able to call my mom, like, hey, I'm Michael.
Speaker A:Like, people on the compound, I'm Michael.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, that was a big.
Speaker A:That was a big deal for me.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:And people were like, hey, whisper, whisper.
Speaker A:No, it's Michael.
Speaker A:You know, like, and through this program, it truly has helped me.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And like, the staff members, they're like, Michael.
Speaker A:You know, they call me Michael.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's first name basis.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You're calling them by their first name.
Speaker A:And I call Noel, I call Steve.
Speaker A:I call them by their first name.
Speaker A:Shelby.
Speaker A:By her first name.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So was it.
Speaker B:Was it weird or just different when you guys got taken into this program and now you're.
Speaker B:You're sitting across the table from a CEO, and then you're going back to the prison, back to your cell.
Speaker B:Are you seeing these CEOs that you're sitting in a class with just hours prior, the day prior, then have to put on the whole separation, or were you able to have some sort of communication, like, hey, it was great talking to you, or were you strictly back to the rules when you went back into the law?
Speaker A:So there.
Speaker A:I mean, there is.
Speaker A:There is a culture change happening within the prisons.
Speaker A:You might not.
Speaker A:And I know you.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:I see sometimes people come on here and they.
Speaker A:But in idoc, people want to.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:There's a culture change happening right from the top down.
Speaker A:Okay, you mean.
Speaker A:And that's from leadership here.
Speaker A:So you mean like Chad Page.
Speaker A:Chad Page is your deputy chief of prisons.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And he is.
Speaker A:He's big on mentorship.
Speaker A:He's big on everything that we do as residents.
Speaker A:He's a part of our team.
Speaker A:Like, if you met this guy, you wouldn't even be able to tell that he was a deputy chief.
Speaker A:Like, he rides Harleys and low riders.
Speaker A:Dixon Flannels.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like deputy chief of prisons.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But like, that man will come on compound and.
Speaker A:And with his dog and.
Speaker A:And he'll shake your hand and sit down at the table with you and chop it up, you know?
Speaker B:And do you see that's helping 100.
Speaker B:Okay, so you're saying there's a.
Speaker B:There's a shift, a culture.
Speaker B:You say culture shift.
Speaker B:Would you use the word culture?
Speaker B:Okay, so you say that there's a culture shift happening inside the correctional facilities, at least for here in Idaho.
Speaker B:What you're speaking on is, is the culture shift.
Speaker B:You're speaking of more personal relationships between the CEOs and you guys.
Speaker B:Or like what's, what's the culture shift?
Speaker A:It start, it starts from the beginning of when they're, you know, I, I, I go there, I do neo new employee orientation.
Speaker A:So new employee.
Speaker A:I teach neo, so that's new employee orientation.
Speaker A:So when, when staff members become CEOs, parole officers, clinicians, anything to do with IDOC, I go and I do an hour speech in front of them.
Speaker A:When they've only been with the department for four days, the first person they get to see is me.
Speaker B:So you're talking to new hire cos that are coming on the work.
Speaker B:What is the mission that you're talking to these new CEOs for?
Speaker A:Where, where are they going to be successful in this job?
Speaker A:Why are you here?
Speaker A:A lot, a lot of people don't know why they're here.
Speaker A:Are you here because you want to be a knuckle dragger?
Speaker A:Are you here because you're here for a paycheck?
Speaker A:Are you here because you want to make impact?
Speaker A:And right now, I'll tell you, right now, from the top down, they're telling them if you're not here for impact, then you're in the wrong job.
Speaker A:And, and that's, and, and I've been there, I've seen it.
Speaker A:And I say, obviously not all of them are like that.
Speaker A:You'll go into these prisons, not everybody's there yet.
Speaker A:You mean just.
Speaker A:They deal with the same thing we deal with, right?
Speaker A:People are like, oh, you're doing that.
Speaker A:And they're dealing with the old schools that, oh, you're doing that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, especially with Rise, like, Rise was a big, like there was a lot of backlash on their side too, on staff side, right?
Speaker B:Like, oh, I never even think about them.
Speaker A:Yeah, they have it.
Speaker B:Just because you have the, you have two different.
Speaker B:And correct me if I'm wrong, you have two different.
Speaker B:Cos you have the knuckle draggers that are just beat ass pepper spray, shoot non lethal at dudes.
Speaker B:And then I feel, I feel maybe the other half will be a very small percent of cos that truly want to see guys rehabilitate, get out of the gang life, get off the drugs, get the, out of the system.
Speaker B:But which one outweighs the other I mean, obviously you're saying there's a culture change happening, so it would be nice to see more cos going in there.
Speaker B:But at the same time, I mean, does it take one bad apple of some inmate to just go in there and on everything and then you start back over again?
Speaker B:Is it.
Speaker B:Is that a big fear of yours?
Speaker A:100%.
Speaker A:We deal with that.
Speaker A:I mean, but they say old, old director, he made a comment if one.
Speaker A:If one inmate shits to bed, I'm not giving everybody diapers or something or whatever it was, so I forget what it was, you mean.
Speaker A:And that's, That's a truth though, right?
Speaker A:That's how it's supposed to be.
Speaker B:It's the nature of the beast too.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But with, with rise, like when we did launch it, right?
Speaker A:And when we launched it finally, right, like we launched a pilot program and there was a moment in that program where there was James, right?
Speaker A:And then there was a CEO, right?
Speaker A:And they had a pass with each other and that passed.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And this is in the class.
Speaker A:Everybody was surprised that this CEO was even in the class.
Speaker A:They're like, he signed up for it,.
Speaker B:Like, because he's just that guy or that CEO, okay.
Speaker A:And in that class, like, there was a breakdown.
Speaker A:So he had put James in the hole 10 times in one year, okay.
Speaker A:Under investigation.
Speaker A:No dur.
Speaker A:Just because.
Speaker A:And then James was losing contact with his family, right?
Speaker A:He was.
Speaker A:His wife was always worried, like, there was always something going on, right?
Speaker A:Because you, you lose contact with your family for, you know, two weeks, okay.
Speaker A:A time, right?
Speaker A:And they're worried.
Speaker A:So now they're in this class together, right?
Speaker A:And now we're talking about.
Speaker A:We're being vulnerable with each other, right?
Speaker A:That's the point of this class, is collaborate.
Speaker A:Let's break down those walls, right?
Speaker A:Let's get down to that trauma.
Speaker B:Oh, so.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So he.
Speaker B:Sorry.
Speaker B:Keep going.
Speaker B:I want to hear that.
Speaker A:Let's get down.
Speaker A:Let's get down to that trauma.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And there was a moment where James wrote down, like, why, you know, like, you didn't just hurt me, you hurt my.
Speaker A:My wife.
Speaker A:There was a moment where he broke down and he explained his traumas of why he did that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:His brother, that, that co's brother has been.
Speaker A:Was, you know, victimized by drug dealers for 30 plus years, right.
Speaker A:Personal one.
Speaker A:It's a trauma.
Speaker A:And so when people.
Speaker A:And we're gang, and we're gang members, and we're gang members in prison, we're doing well, we're selling drugs, we're we're victimizing people in prison.
Speaker A:That's what we do.
Speaker B:He's taking it out on you.
Speaker A:So he's looking for a.
Speaker A:If he sees someone selling drug.
Speaker A:He wants to take down anybody who's selling drugs in prison, he wants to take you down.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Oh, okay.
Speaker B:So now you're able to get to the bottom of it, right?
Speaker B:That's incredible.
Speaker B:So you have an inmate and a CEO trauma dumping on each other.
Speaker B:One's getting harassed, one's doing the harassing, and now they're able to come to a common cross ground.
Speaker B:Dude, that's incredible.
Speaker A:And not only that, something crazy.
Speaker A:So obviously now they're.
Speaker A:I mean, Joe, his name is Joe, right?
Speaker A:I won't say his last name, but Joe.
Speaker A:And he, he likes my pictures on Facebook, he's likes my pictures on Instagram, you know.
Speaker A:And after that happened, he went to.
Speaker A:James was getting a visit from his wife.
Speaker A:He walked into visiting, walked up to his wife and said, hey, I want to apologize.
Speaker B:That's big.
Speaker A:And shook her hand.
Speaker B:That's big.
Speaker A:And she was traumatized by this, man.
Speaker A:She'd been married to her, she'd been married to her husband for years.
Speaker A:They've been together for 10 years.
Speaker B:And he was just getting in the way of that.
Speaker A:And so, but what I'm getting, that's because of Rise.
Speaker B:Damn, dude.
Speaker B:And you got to spearhead all this.
Speaker A:That's because of Rise, bro.
Speaker A:And, and so, you know, and, and now he, his relationships and even him as a CEO, he's in there.
Speaker A:He's like, man, I'm mentoring now.
Speaker A:I'm mentoring, you know, like his mind, his mind changes.
Speaker A:Change, bro.
Speaker A:About how he wants to make impact.
Speaker B:Who would have thought sitting two people down across from a table from each other and just hashing out would be what it takes?
Speaker A:You know, we, we.
Speaker A:That was our pilot program.
Speaker A:Then we ended up launching it.
Speaker A:And so we had on the women's side and the men's side, Right.
Speaker A:And being able to go over there with some of them women and facilitate the women's inside the women's prison with them, it's a whole other animal.
Speaker B:Why is that?
Speaker A:Those traumas and everything, it's another animal, right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so being over there, being able to be a part of that and just all of it, like it's, it's cracked off.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:We have a few hundred graduates right now, really, with inside the prisons.
Speaker A:Okay, Right.
Speaker A:We've had, we've had some big names graduate as far as staff go, like their leadership's bought in on what we, what we're doing.
Speaker A:We have other states around us that are bought in on what we're doing.
Speaker B:Is this the first in the country that you know of?
Speaker A:We like to think it is.
Speaker A:We've.
Speaker A:We've done the research as far as a fully.
Speaker A:So it was created by us.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We're.
Speaker A:We're residents.
Speaker A:And so now we navigate who.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, we're bringing on other facilitators that graduate and some of them are staff.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But most of the time it's, it's residents that are facilitating these classes to staff.
Speaker B:So now you have residents teaching CEOs.
Speaker B:Okay, so what are.
Speaker B:If I'm an.
Speaker B:I'm a CEO, I'm just going through the system in there.
Speaker B:What are you going to teach me?
Speaker B:What are, what are some of the.
Speaker B:You don't got to get into details of curriculum, but, like, what, what are some of the things that are helping CEOs be able to connect and bridge this gap between the inmates and inside of there?
Speaker B:What's going through this?
Speaker A:Well, the best part is we're, I guess teaching is the wrong.
Speaker A:So we facilitate.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Because obviously you teach, then you facilitate.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I think the curriculum teaches itself.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I think as far as, like, it's big because we go, like, we go over communication styles.
Speaker A:We go over.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, a lot, A lot of times we don't even understand who we are.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, until you really read it and you figure out who you like.
Speaker A:When you do your enneagram, you're doing your, you know, your personality type, you start reading there.
Speaker A:Oh, and then when you have, when you learn how to talk to somebody else, that's a different type of mirror match.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It helps you be able to communicate with, With a team.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:As a leader.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:As a leader, someone, they're learning these things as well.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:As a leader, how do I. I can't just like, if you're not, if, if you're.
Speaker A:Let's say you're a blue and I'm a brown.
Speaker A:Blues work with their, their feelings a little more.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:They're a little more sensitive.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:They want to make everybody happy.
Speaker A:So it's like if I come at you like a brown, you're not going to take the information the same way.
Speaker B:Walls shut down 100.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, so I need to flex to you.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:To be able to get the message across to you for sure.
Speaker A:And as a leader, that's my job.
Speaker A:My job isn't just a. Oh, it's My way.
Speaker A:And that's the highway.
Speaker A:That's not a real leader.
Speaker B:Damn, dude, I love this.
Speaker A:You know, and so we go into, you know, crucial conversations.
Speaker A:That's a big, you know, that's one of ours.
Speaker A:We talk about it.
Speaker A:When you get into emotional intelligence, the difference between empathy and sympathy, I think as a correctional officer, learning that.
Speaker A:Oh, it's huge, right?
Speaker A:Like, if you.
Speaker A:I didn't.
Speaker A:I never knew the difference.
Speaker A:I was hard.
Speaker A:Then I started learning, you know, my.
Speaker A:Oh, there's a massive, massive difference.
Speaker B:And how you can.
Speaker B:How you react to things will show you exactly the direction you're going to.
Speaker A:Go with that 1%.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Well, these are all things that we go over in our curriculum, right.
Speaker A:And we do lots of.
Speaker A:In it.
Speaker A:We're doing breakout groups to where, you know, we're doing breakout groups with teams and to where everyone gets the opportunity to collaborate.
Speaker A:Like, that's a collaboration part.
Speaker A:Then you're.
Speaker A:You're teaching back.
Speaker A:So it's not only that.
Speaker A:It's giving people the confidence to be able to do teach back because people need to learn that stage presence.
Speaker A:Everybody in prison wants to be, you know, they want to do presentations, they want to do motivational speaks, but they never.
Speaker A:They never spoke in front of nobody before.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So when you give people the opportunity to do that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You give them a platform inside prison.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You're just building.
Speaker A:You're building a leader.
Speaker B:Damn.
Speaker B:And I'm.
Speaker B:This.
Speaker B:I love hearing.
Speaker B:This is why I wanted to have this conversation.
Speaker B:Because I personally feel I could be wrong.
Speaker B:That our correctional facilities is.
Speaker B:Is the biggest scam just to keep these dudes in there.
Speaker B:They're not reef facilitating anything.
Speaker B:They're not rehabilitating anybody.
Speaker B:They're just letting all the drugs, letting all the crime, letting everything just happen.
Speaker B:Because that's just money.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's guaranteed money.
Speaker B:It's just a revolving door of money.
Speaker B:So to see, especially here in Idaho being, you know, our home state, it's just.
Speaker B:It's really cool to see a difference being made because I've talked to so many CEOs, bro.
Speaker B:Like, I just had Hector Bravo one, bro.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:That dude was telling me offline, like, what's going on?
Speaker B:Because he's outing a lot of the facilities now because of the corruption.
Speaker B:I mean, dude, he made it all the way to lieutenant super quick and got up there and saw how everything was running.
Speaker B:He was like, I can't do this.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker B:This is pure corruption.
Speaker B:So it's.
Speaker B:It's great to See, I.
Speaker B:But I also have a hard time seeing this happening in a California system where there's just, it's just so chaos.
Speaker B:And I'm not saying Idaho isn't, but I feel it's a little.
Speaker B:And please correct me if I'm wrong, it's not as controlled, but it's not as just wild chaos 247 where you're just waking up hoping to survive that day.
Speaker B:Now these types of facilities and maybe some little hillbilly ass areas where it's maybe a good starting point.
Speaker B:Do it for this, this, this project to be like the perfect birthing place of it because you get to get on these personal levels.
Speaker B:Because I feel like taking some 30 year gang banger out of East LA and sitting down with some CEO that's he's literally his whole entire life is to hate that person.
Speaker B:It's going to take a lot to get him to that point to even want to have that conversation because they look at each other as just enemies.
Speaker B:And then you're also dealing with some of these CEOs that are in some of these facilities that just hate these.
Speaker B:The guys are in there with all because they have thrown on them, they've been assaulted, everything tried against that.
Speaker B:Whatever may happen, there's going to be this really tough mingling.
Speaker B:But I feel obviously you guys are doing it the most perfect way and clearly it should showing results that, that it's.
Speaker B:I mean you're the prime example.
Speaker B:I mean you're sitting here from doing all this and now you're teaching.
Speaker B:Who would have thought in a million years you going through all of this to get to this stage, to now be helping CEOs and that are coming on and teaching inside the system of what they should expect and how to be helping these guys.
Speaker A:I mean it's so like from there I ended up going, Steve, he ended up moving to Treasure Valley crc, okay, which is a community reentry center.
Speaker A:I think in, in the beginning me and James couldn't get there, right?
Speaker A:And I had a buddy named Chris Shanahan.
Speaker A:Chris Shannon has been down 30 years.
Speaker A:Okay, he's there, right?
Speaker A:He's like, he was like the spearhead of the mentor program.
Speaker A:And I finally get over there and we had, we had, we had the rise going in, in the prisons, right?
Speaker A:And so the CRCs are technically under PMP Probation and Parole.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So when I got over there, I'm like, hey, like I want to launch rise over here at pmp.
Speaker A:And it was like, oh well, we can't.
Speaker A:This Is, you know, there's all I was pushing.
Speaker A:I'm pushing this right hard.
Speaker A:I'm like, you know, I'm going, I'm building everything.
Speaker A:I'm doing all.
Speaker A:You know, for a minute, I felt like I was by myself, you know, so there was a minute there where I was like, man, like, am I making the right decision?
Speaker A:Like, I'm putting myself out there vulnerable with this.
Speaker A:I'm like, this has changed my life.
Speaker A:Like, I want to see this grow, you know, And.
Speaker A:And, yeah, they're all.
Speaker A:I feel like everybody was bucking, Bucking against me for a second, you know, And I finally got James over and I made this proposal, right?
Speaker A:I had it all perfect.
Speaker A:You know, I go to Steve, I'm like, look, I wanna put this proposal together.
Speaker A:This is what I want to do.
Speaker A:Because now he was the warden, he's a manager, pretty much a good warden at this place.
Speaker A:He promoted lieutenant, right?
Speaker A:So he's there.
Speaker A:He's like, you know.
Speaker A:And now Noel Barlow, the warden that was at the.
Speaker A:Now she's the deputy chief of Probation and parole, okay?
Speaker A:So now she's the boss.
Speaker A:And she's already.
Speaker A:She has been our.
Speaker A:She's our mom, right?
Speaker A:She's the one who, you know, gave us a green light for Rise where we're at.
Speaker A:She didn't really have too much overlook of it, but she was.
Speaker A:She's mom.
Speaker A:She's the one who.
Speaker A:Who says yes or no, right?
Speaker A:And so I. I put a proposal together for her.
Speaker A:I'm like, look, this is like, she was.
Speaker A:Michael, let's make it happen.
Speaker A:Like, it's already proven.
Speaker A:She's already seen it prove.
Speaker A:Like, with rise in her prisons on the men's side and the women's side, the culture change, like, we were creating.
Speaker A:We were.
Speaker A:These women were having purpose now these men were having purpose.
Speaker A:They were creating programs.
Speaker A:They started creating classes themselves.
Speaker A:Oh, they were taking these classes and they were going and trying to create classes themselves.
Speaker A:They were trying.
Speaker A:You mean, like, they just give.
Speaker A:It was giving some people purpose.
Speaker A:It was giving people.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:And so she said, go ahead.
Speaker A:So while I was there at the prison at Treasure Valley, we started building it, right?
Speaker A:And this time it was like, okay, like, we could do CEOs, we could do parole officers, we could do inmates, we could do community, right?
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Because in our mind, right, you have some individuals who've been in prison for 22 years.
Speaker B:Oh, for sure.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Let's say, for example.
Speaker A:And then you have their significant other.
Speaker A:Okay, well, their significant other is.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Been going Through.
Speaker A:Been.
Speaker A:Been with them for 10 years.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But she's never, like, through a phone.
Speaker A:That's it.
Speaker A:What have we created an opportunity where.
Speaker A:Where they get to be in a class together before the individual comes home, and they get to learn these leadership skills together.
Speaker B:So you're connecting couples now that have maybe connected during the time in the system and helping them learn how to be a couple together.
Speaker B:I guess, in a way, just her.
Speaker A:Being able to maybe understand her husband a little bit better.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:What he's been going through or.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Or what she's been dealing with on the outside.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You talk on the phone all the time.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker A:But, like, when you really get deep into the curriculum, you start being vulnerable about some stuff that just doesn't come up over a phone.
Speaker B:I never would have thought of this.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You just.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker A:Because sometimes people get.
Speaker A:Yeah, you're together for 10 years and that person gets out of prison.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And then what happens?
Speaker A:You guys don't like each other?
Speaker B:Break up, fall back in your own ways, you get back in the drugs, whatever.
Speaker A:Yeah, they don't like each other.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So we worked on that, worked on it hard while I was there.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And then I. I got out, right.
Speaker A:I paroled January 20th, January 26th of this year, right.
Speaker A:After 10 years straight here.
Speaker A:And I hit the ground running, you know, and.
Speaker A:And I. I had that confidence.
Speaker A:Like, I think it was super big.
Speaker A:I think I went and met you, like, a few days later.
Speaker B:You were.
Speaker A:You're fresh.
Speaker A:And I am not going to lie to you.
Speaker A:That day I had so much impostor syndrome walking in there, 100.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:Yeah, like, it's crazy because you build.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:You build this confidence in yourself when you're in there in prison.
Speaker A:Like, okay, I'm doing these programs, I'm mentoring, I'm doing all these things.
Speaker A:Like, I'm, you know, I know who I am, you know, and then you go into that room and you're with a bunch of individuals, you know, you don't know, And.
Speaker A:And you're hearing all these titles and some of these guys, you know, and you're like, do I belong here?
Speaker B:Tell me you didn't feel belong, though,.
Speaker A:You know, in the beginning.
Speaker A:Yeah, you don't.
Speaker A:You feel like it's one of those imposter syndromes, you know?
Speaker B:And so I feel like you were pretty welcomed with open arms.
Speaker A:I was gonna.
Speaker B:That's why, you know, tell me you weren't accepted right into that.
Speaker A:I was accepted right away.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But the imposter Syndrome still, you know,.
Speaker B:Maybe for you at that moment.
Speaker B:But dude, that group, that's the best group of dudes you could ever.
Speaker B:Never been around.
Speaker A:Yeah, no.
Speaker A:And that cigar was, was one of them.
Speaker A:Hey.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Oh, is that your first cigar since.
Speaker B:No, you've had.
Speaker A:No, I had a cigar with.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Vic before that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:There's no way he would have let you gone more than probably an hour after.
Speaker B:Yeah, I love hearing that though.
Speaker B:But I, I, that's when Vic was like, yo, I'm gonna bring my, my homie.
Speaker B:He just got out and you know, he's down 16 years and I think getting him into your community would, you know, around these men would be huge.
Speaker B:And I'm like, bro, roll them through.
Speaker B:And, and yeah, that's the night.
Speaker B:And I look over and I was sitting with a couple of my buddies.
Speaker B:I was like, bro, that dude just got out and he's sitting with a cop.
Speaker B:Like that's what it's about though.
Speaker B:Like that and take.
Speaker B:Removing the titles, removing tears and positions and whatever it may be and just coming together on an even playing field.
Speaker B:And you never know who you're going to connect with and what doors are going to open and what doors will help get closed.
Speaker B:And yeah, that's.
Speaker B:Dude, you're crushing it, man.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so we, we launched RISE out here.
Speaker A:So RISE just launched the pilot of PMP March 26, I think it was, was their first class.
Speaker A:And bro, it is.
Speaker A:It's on a whole other level.
Speaker A:Why is that?
Speaker A:It's just more resources.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Because obviously we were in the prisons before.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Now we're not in prisons now we're in pnp.
Speaker A:So the resources are a little more.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You have a little, a couple more resources.
Speaker A:But right now we have Treasure Valley crc, We have East Boise Women crc, we have Napa crc.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:All in this class.
Speaker A:We have community members.
Speaker A:We have.
Speaker A:Cos. We have Vic, Vic's student.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:In the class.
Speaker A:And so I built it up.
Speaker A:We, we, me and my team have built it up so much that you know, the goal is where I never have to facilitate again.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, I, the other day I went and just, you know, knock off the webs and got to go in there and facilitate the class and talk about stigmas and, and self stigmas and what those look like.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:But yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty, it's good being in there.
Speaker A:Yeah, being in there and, and knowing like.
Speaker A:I know like next month on May, I got Taylor Kavanaugh's coming out May 15th.
Speaker B:Actually, he called me today when I was going to sauna, so I got to call him back, actually.
Speaker A:So May 15th to the 18th, and on the 16th, we're going to be talking about empathy and sympathy, and he's gonna be doing a guest, so I'm bringing him out to the prison to be in Rise.
Speaker A:I love tcaf.
Speaker A:He's great.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I'm super stoked for.
Speaker A:For them and him in general, but just for them to get, you know, a little bit of that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker A:Because we talk about leadership, for sure.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I think that's, like, when I'm able to start, like, connecting those type of dots and.
Speaker A:And putting those people in those type of rooms for them, I think it's.
Speaker A:It shows because even when I go in and, like, I roll in with my work truck to these.
Speaker A:These prisons.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It gives people permission.
Speaker A:And what I mean by that is sometimes, like, we're so stuck in our ways, and we're so scared of what other individuals think of us.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, I'm scared, like, they're gonna think, like, I'm.
Speaker A:I'm not that dude no more, or, you know, or I switched up.
Speaker A:But sometimes all it takes is to see somebody else, like, you doing it for sure.
Speaker A:And you're like, oh, like, maybe I could do that 100.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I've been.
Speaker A:I don't want so bad 100.
Speaker A:Because, like, we always say, like, yeah, the gang banging and all that stuff, it's always gonna be there.
Speaker A:Like, I'm.
Speaker A:I'm never gonna tell anybody not to do it.
Speaker A:Because, you mean, like, I know how if somebody told me not to do it, I'm gonna do it more.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But I'm gonna be like, you could do this all day, but.
Speaker A:Or you could do this.
Speaker A:And this is, you know, and this is what this brings.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I'll tell you right now, like, I've been out 70 days, and I've done so many things in my.
Speaker A:For watching, in my 70 days that I never even imagined that I would be even capable of.
Speaker A:And I truly believe, and I will say this is because of Rise.
Speaker A:Rise has built confidence in me.
Speaker A:Rise has built relationships and connections.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, that I never even thought.
Speaker A:Like, I.
Speaker A:Before I came here, I messaged Stelzer, you know, because technically, he's my mentor.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:He said, working out of prison, I messaged him and say, this is what I'm doing.
Speaker A:He said, you're going to do great.
Speaker A:People need to hear your story.
Speaker A:People need to hear that you can change, that you can do more.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And like, I, I never thought I would have the capability of building a curriculum to a program or speaking in front of people or teaching, you know, or, or guiding or anything like that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, I don't know what, you know, I'm not a fitness coach.
Speaker A:I'm not any of these stuff.
Speaker A:But when I, When I do share on social media, I'm sharing my lifestyle.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And my lifestyle is.
Speaker A:Is boundaries, you know, self development.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, this is what I'm doing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like connection.
Speaker A:Like connection is the biggest thing.
Speaker A:And all that is from rise.
Speaker A:Building connection has been my biggest thing.
Speaker A:And, and that be getting closer to God.
Speaker A:Like that's something I never thought.
Speaker B:How's that changed your life?
Speaker B:How's your relationship with God changed your life for the better?
Speaker A:It is love.
Speaker A:I love is the biggest.
Speaker A:I don't know because then one of the greatest feelings I just, you know, there's individuals like when I, Even when I go to church, I think that was like the first.
Speaker A:When I went to the Calvary for the first time I walked in there.
Speaker A:At first I was.
Speaker A:I don't know how this is gonna feel.
Speaker A:And just the most.
Speaker A:It's one place you could go that you think you would never.
Speaker A:You see people, you're like, oh, I would never talk to that person.
Speaker A:Mean, that person had nothing in common.
Speaker A:Well, you got a lot of common there.
Speaker A:And they're all giving you and you're getting hugs and you feel that love, you feel that appreciation.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And so it's just like you go from that word hate.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We talk about the word hate to the word love and just try and start everything out with the word love.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think is big.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And letting him guide me, I think I said I wouldn't be right here.
Speaker A:I wouldn't have the confidence to even do this.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:If it wasn't for God.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker B:I'm proud of you, dude.
Speaker A:I appreciate it.
Speaker B:Seriously.
Speaker B:I'm sure there's a lot of people that are proud of you too, that have watched you all these years.
Speaker B:Good for you.
Speaker B:I'm sure your dad's pretty proud of you.
Speaker A:100.
Speaker A:That's something that you mean.
Speaker A:I. I truly.
Speaker A:I don't know, moving forward, just trying to do things for him and, and.
Speaker A:And Matt.
Speaker A:I mean, I talk about Matt all the time for Matt and just obviously for my mom.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Mom.
Speaker B:How's your mom taking all this?
Speaker B:Hearing all this?
Speaker A:You know, for a long time I would call her, but when I Started making that change.
Speaker A:I'm like, hey, this is what I'm doing.
Speaker A:And I don't think, you know, I only called my mom on Saturdays for a decade.
Speaker A:That's it all my mom never knows me writing from the hole.
Speaker A:Writing for MAD Said.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Like she's watched her baby boy grow up in, in the system.
Speaker A:That's all she knows.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So when I started telling her, hey, I'm doing these things, it's not like she's here visiting me.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like everybody else is getting visits.
Speaker A:Their, their family's watching it, their family's coming to events.
Speaker A:She's here, she's hearing me tell her over a phone, hey, this is what I'm doing.
Speaker A:I probably, you know, but there became a moment where she sees it, you.
Speaker B:Know, also at the same time.
Speaker B:How many, all the years, how many times you tell her I'm gonna change or it's different this time or I ain't going, you know, I'm, I'm working on myself.
Speaker B:She's so, she's, she's probably had this boy that's been in the system that's cried wolf for 16 years.
Speaker B:So she's probably a little apprehensive at first.
Speaker B:But the fact that she sees it now and obviously there's, there's a change.
Speaker B:I mean you guys, you guys spearheaded this program and it's crushing it.
Speaker A:Well, with all my family, I think like her side, my mom's side of the family and my little sister, my little brother, just me and my little, my little sister had a lot of, you know, there was a little beef there for a while.
Speaker A:She didn't want, I mean I, and I understood.
Speaker A:She was my baby sister.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:She felt like I chose that lifestyle over her.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, and then there become a point now where, and I would always be, oh, you don't understand me.
Speaker A:You don't understand what I've been through.
Speaker A:You can't tell, you can't tell somebody that you know.
Speaker A:And I didn't realize that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And now I'm like, you know what?
Speaker A:Like if I did, I'm sorry and this is what I'm going to do to fix it.
Speaker A:And I'm gonna show you.
Speaker A:And that's what I've been doing.
Speaker A:I just been grinding, you know, every single day, making sure I put myself in the right position work wise and, and the non profit wise, like making sure that we're grinding on that because I want to take rise to a different level.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Obviously that belongs to the prisons type deal.
Speaker A:But I think that there's a place for that type of stuff out here, because I think there's more people in prison outside of prison.
Speaker A:And there is in prison.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker A:Just trapped in their mind, not knowing, no resources.
Speaker B:Look at how many guys grow up without dads or moms were in the system.
Speaker B:And they've never been shown how to communicate, how to just function with other people.
Speaker B:You don't get along with 100.
Speaker B:You're gonna change some lives, man.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker A:I think starting.
Speaker A:You mean, like, I don't want to.
Speaker A:I don't want to limit myself.
Speaker A:No, I want.
Speaker A:I want juveniles.
Speaker A:I want women, men.
Speaker A:I think that.
Speaker A:I think there's a place for it.
Speaker A:Just leadership in general, you know, hopefully this spreads, man.
Speaker B:And hopefully this.
Speaker B:This episode and people will hear this, and maybe.
Speaker B:Maybe these other facilities will reach out and fan.
Speaker B:Watch.
Speaker B:Watch this develop in the.
Speaker B:You now travel in the country spearheading these new.
Speaker B:These new programs, these Rise programs across the country.
Speaker B:I could see if it's working the way you're saying it is.
Speaker B:And talking to Vic and all the guys in circle.
Speaker B:TCAV's coming down.
Speaker B:TCAD doesn't put his name on anything.
Speaker B:I mean, that.
Speaker B:That dude's got everything going for him.
Speaker B:So the fact that he's coming in.
Speaker B:Involved in this, you got a lot of.
Speaker B:A lot of cool going on.
Speaker A:I was a fraud.
Speaker A:What was it?
Speaker A:Monday?
Speaker A:I got.
Speaker A:I got my first tattoo outside of prison.
Speaker A:I got my armpit done.
Speaker A:It was a right.
Speaker A:It was a rise.
Speaker A:The Rise logo.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:I was like, you know what?
Speaker A:I gotta do something that's.
Speaker A:I have all these tattoos on my body that I've got inside prison that.
Speaker A:Some of them.
Speaker A:I'm just like, there's no meaning behind it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know?
Speaker A:Yeah, there really isn't.
Speaker A:Like, I got some.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:That I've done some things for.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, there's nothing that really stands for something.
Speaker A:And I only have two spots left.
Speaker A:This is my armpits.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I was like, all right, I'm about the Rise logo on there.
Speaker A:So I did that, and I sent it to Steve, and Steve was like, that's amazing.
Speaker A:You know, and so.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I just.
Speaker A:I want.
Speaker A:I really want to stand.
Speaker A:I think it does.
Speaker A:I think this program has something to give to everywhere.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And we've had some people.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think it was Chicago Elite.
Speaker A:I forget the program, but.
Speaker A:So my friend Chris Shanahan, he's been incarcerated 30 years.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And, like, he.
Speaker A:He's a networker.
Speaker A:He's good, you know, and he saw.
Speaker A:He had 35, the life.
Speaker A:He still says another five years.
Speaker A:So he goes aboard, but he speaks with, you know, he's.
Speaker A:He spoke with Chicago.
Speaker A:I forget what the program was, but they heard what we were doing and they're like, man, we want to know more.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:And so like, that's Chicago, right?
Speaker A:Like, I don't play in Chicago.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:So I feel like, yeah, it's gonna, it's gonna spread like wildfire.
Speaker B:Absolutely it will.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Hopefully this helps if there's.
Speaker B:I guess we could end on this.
Speaker B:If there's one message for the young people out there that are finding themselves mixed up or going down some wrong paths, what would be a message for them?
Speaker A:Them?
Speaker A:Get out your own way.
Speaker A:I think sometimes that we get our own way.
Speaker A:I'm guilty of it.
Speaker A:Like, I'm in my head and I have this whole little, you know, this is how it's going to work, you know, And.
Speaker A:And it never works that way.
Speaker A:Nope.
Speaker A:Get out your own way and ask for help.
Speaker A:Cuz we don't ask for help.
Speaker A:I don't think.
Speaker A:I can't.
Speaker A:I can't think of one time as a kid or even when I was struggling, you know, because I don't want to think of a kid as like 15.
Speaker A:I mean, I was a kid at 25 for sure.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And if I would have just asked for help, you know, instead of being like, I got it all figured out, I would maybe not be.
Speaker A:I wouldn't be here because I would never be in Idaho, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But he's.
Speaker A:Getting out of your own way and asking for help.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:It's a.
Speaker A:It's one of those things.
Speaker A:It's an ego thing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think the ego gets in our way for sure.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Ego is.
Speaker B:Destroys a lot.
Speaker A:100 A lot of things.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:It's gotten in my way a lot.
Speaker B:That's for sure.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I just think get out your own way, ask for help.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's what I would say.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker B:Well, I'm proud of you, man.
Speaker A:Thank you again.
Speaker B:Thanks, dude.
Speaker B:I appreciate this conversation and I'm really excited to watch where this goes, especially being homegrown and I'm rooting for you.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
