In advance of our Ger Graus season which will be based on his book Through a Different Lens - Lessons from a Life in Education I have created a summary podcast of our previous conversation (Ep 439) using NotebookLM. This is as - described on it's website - 'the AI research tool and thinking partner that can analyze your sources, turn complexity into clarity and transform your content'.
You will hear 2 AI voices discuss and summarise our conversation about Ger's book.
Why do this? Partly as a quick recap before we start the Ger Graus season but also to help me understand what is currently possible with AI in advance of our Education on Fire LIVE Stream shows that will focus on AI in education.
To keep up to date with everything we are doing and download our FREE top 10 resources pdf please visit https://www.educationonfire.com/
Transcripts
Speaker A:
Hello, my name is Mark Taylor and welcome to the Education on Far podcast.
Speaker A:
The place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world.
Speaker A:
Listen to teachers, parents and mentors share how they are supporting children to live their best, authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all.
Speaker A:
Hello, welcome back to Education on Fire.
Speaker A:
Great to be back with you.
Speaker A:
We've got a slightly different show today because we've got a couple of things coming up and I thought I wanted to just experiment a little bit, try something a little bit new.
Speaker A:
And as I mentioned last week, we've got a short season come up with Professor Dr. G, and that's going to be broken down into his book through a different lens, Lessons from a Life in Education.
Speaker A:
So what I've decided to do today is I've actually created an AI version with two main sources, the YouTube channel and the interview that I did on Education on Fire and also his website.
Speaker A:
Now, I wanted to do this to see what the results would be.
Speaker A:
It's pretty accurate, it's pretty interesting.
Speaker A:
There's a little bit of confusion in terms of the, the pronunciation of some of the names and there's a couple of things which are educational and fire related which they've put.
Speaker A:
It's something that Gare's actually quoted from, which isn't quite accurate, but generally speaking, it's very interesting and it's a great summary of, of what Gare is all about and what's actually involved in his book.
Speaker A:
But the other reason for doing this is the fact that we're going to have part, as part of our live streams, an actual season focused on AI and what's possible and how people are using it.
Speaker A:
So I wanted to combine these two ideas, put them together today in this episode one to see what you thought about the outcome, but also for me to play around with this new technology so that when I have these conversations on the live stream, I've got some real practical insider knowledge, as it were.
Speaker A:
Now, I use AI quite a lot for various things, but I wanted to do it so you could actually be part of it, hear it, understand what was going on.
Speaker A:
And like I said, it comes from my interview with Gare in the past and his website.
Speaker A:
So I hope you find this very interesting.
Speaker A:
Let me know what you think, especially if you're going to show up on the live shows.
Speaker A:
We can continue this conversation there.
Speaker A:
I'm really excited to sort of see where all this goes.
Speaker A:
AI is not going anywhere.
Speaker A:
It's going to be an integral part of what we do now, while I wouldn't produce a podcast every week with AI.
Speaker A:
The fact that you can have these two hosts that are having a conversation and debating that the talking points of this book is just amazing.
Speaker A:
And I think it's actually quite engaging.
Speaker A:
So I really hope you enjoy that.
Speaker A:
So.
Speaker A:
So it's gonna be really interesting to hear people, companies, how they're using it within education, how they're using it for tutoring.
Speaker A:
So many different areas that I think will be fascinating for you to hear, based on the fact that we've actually created this whole show based on that.
Speaker A:
Now, if you want to see a video version or sort of the visual side of these things, I've created that as well.
Speaker A:
And that's going to be on the YouTube channel, which you can get to@educationonfire.com YouTube.
Speaker A:
Let me know what you think.
Speaker A:
Can't wait to hear more about what this is going to look like when I chat to some of my guests on those live streams coming up in the next month or so.
Speaker A:
And for now, really hope you enjoy this and we'll catch you again very, very soon.
Speaker B:
Welcome to the Deep Dive, your shortcut to being well informed.
Speaker B:
Today we're diving into, well, a really fascinating perspective on modern education.
Speaker B:
We're looking through the lens of a true visionary.
Speaker B:
And I want to start with something he believes deeply, Professor Dr. Jur Grouse Ope.
Speaker B:
He says children can only aspire to what they know exists.
Speaker B:
Just let that sink in for a moment.
Speaker B:
It really frames our discussion today about how education can either open doors or perhaps keep them closed.
Speaker C:
Absolutely.
Speaker C:
And Professor Grouse is the perfect person to guide this conversation.
Speaker C:
I mean, his background speaks for itself.
Speaker C:
First global director of education at KidZania, founding CEO of the children's university.
Speaker C:
us he received an OBE back in:
Speaker C:
Quite an honor.
Speaker C:
Our main source today is his upcoming book, Through A Different Lessons From a Life in education.
Speaker C:
,:
Speaker C:
So our mission really is to unpack his insights, the tough questions he asks and the stories he tells.
Speaker C:
We want to get a fresh take on what education could be.
Speaker C:
You know, exploring ideas like experience is everything or learning as a satellite navigation system to better places in life.
Speaker B:
That idea of learning as a SAT nav, I like that it implies guidance, a journey towards something better.
Speaker B:
But he doesn't just offer nice ideas, does he?
Speaker B:
He throws down a challenge.
Speaker B:
He asks us, are you ready to challenge the definition of insanity?
Speaker B:
Doing the same thing over and over again.
Speaker B:
And expecting different results.
Speaker B:
That's pretty direct, especially for anyone involved in education.
Speaker B:
Where do we even start with that?
Speaker C:
Well, it's a powerful starting gun, isn't it?
Speaker C:
It forces you to stop and think.
Speaker C:
His whole philosophy, he sums it up himself, is Jean Jacques Rousseau meets Willy Wonka, which I think is just brilliant.
Speaker C:
You've got Rousseau's deep thinking about child development, that respect for the child's nature, and then Wonka brings the magic, the experience, the fun.
Speaker C:
So the starting point, the leverage is right there.
Speaker C:
Combining that profound understanding with, you know, wonder and hands on opportunity, creating places where kids want to discover.
Speaker B:
Rousseau meets Willy Wonka.
Speaker B:
Yeah, that captures it perfectly.
Speaker B:
A blend of serious thought and playful execution.
Speaker B:
And that seems to be the essence of his new book through a different lens.
Speaker B:
It's being called a literary sensation, something that really captivates readers.
Speaker B:
Apparently he wasn't keen on writing it at first.
Speaker B:
Preferred recording conversations.
Speaker C:
That's right.
Speaker C:
Which totally fits his focus on interaction, on dialogue.
Speaker C:
He didn't want some dry academic text.
Speaker C:
He actually said it's for anyone who likes children to read, maybe on their holidays.
Speaker C:
That tells you a lot, doesn't it?
Speaker B:
It really does.
Speaker B:
It says he wants these ideas out there, accessible to everyone, parents, teachers, anyone who cares about kids.
Speaker B:
Not just for the experts.
Speaker C:
Exactly.
Speaker C:
And the early feedback shows it's hitting that mark.
Speaker C:
Richard Taylor, a teacher for 40 years, called Jura a pioneer, a visionary, so you can't help but glow under his light.
Speaker C:
High praise.
Speaker C:
Mohammed Isop from Tahitul Education Trust agreed.
Speaker C:
And Sergei Kazaretsky in Moscow called him the best broadcasters of the children's voice.
Speaker C:
It's quite something.
Speaker B:
Best broadcaster of the children's voice.
Speaker B:
Wow.
Speaker B:
That leads us nicely to a key distinction he makes, one that sort of reframes everything.
Speaker B:
He says education is 0 to 99, schooling is a number of years.
Speaker B:
As part of that, that prepares you to educate yourself better for the rest of your life.
Speaker B:
That's a big idea, isn't it?
Speaker B:
Education is lifelong.
Speaker B:
Schooling is preparation.
Speaker B:
It's absolutely fundamental.
Speaker B:
It changes the whole purpose of school.
Speaker B:
It's not just about cramming facts for exams, it's about lighting that fire for lifelong learning.
Speaker B:
And this is where his critique comes in.
Speaker B:
He argues the system's accountability has shifted, shifted away from the child and onto, well, the system itself.
Speaker B:
Metrics, targets, lead tables.
Speaker B:
He points out, you know, how rarely the word child even appears in official documents, like Ofsted reviews here in the uk.
Speaker B:
It's like.
Speaker C:
Like his analogy talking about hospitals without mentioning patients.
Speaker B:
Exactly.
Speaker B:
It's that stark.
Speaker B:
And the danger is obvious.
Speaker B:
The system starts serving itself, not the kids.
Speaker C:
It's supposed to be for that hospital analogy.
Speaker C:
Yeah, it really drives the point home.
Speaker C:
So if we need to shift accountability back to the child, how do we actually do that?
Speaker C:
How do we see the individual?
Speaker C:
This brings us to personalization.
Speaker C:
He says we're in an age of personalization.
Speaker C:
You need to get to know your children better beyond the grade.
Speaker C:
Sounds right, but how does that work in practice with big classes and targets?
Speaker C:
Well, it directly impacts engagement.
Speaker C:
He tells this great story about moving from a small, quite well off school to a big disadvantaged one in Hull.
Speaker C:
His teachers there, brilliant subject experts, but they realized they were only really reaching the, you know, top 25%.
Speaker C:
The shift came when they focused on becoming brilliant teachers of children, not just brilliant teachers of say, maths or history.
Speaker C:
It meant understanding the whole child, their background, their worries, their smart.
Speaker C:
It wasn't about lowering standards, it was about finding the right path for each child to reach those standards.
Speaker C:
That's real personalization.
Speaker B:
Meeting the child where they are makes sense.
Speaker B:
And beneath that there has to be trust, right?
Speaker B:
He quotes Carla Rellati.
Speaker B:
We must trust the children as much as they trust us.
Speaker B:
But as you say, the system often feels built on control.
Speaker B:
He mentions things like kids not being allowed to talk in corridors or really strict toilet rules.
Speaker B:
Calls it nonsense that needs to stop.
Speaker B:
Why is that control culture so damaging?
Speaker C:
Because it stifles everything that matters.
Speaker C:
Autonomy, curiosity, motivation.
Speaker C:
When you operate on control, you're basically teaching kids their voice doesn't count, that following rules is more important than thinking for themselves.
Speaker C:
These small rules, like corridor silence, they're symptoms of a bigger problem.
Speaker C:
Trying to manage behavior by clamping down.
Speaker C:
Instead of building self regulation through respect, it chips away at their self worth, makes them afraid to explore, limits their aspirations before they even start, undermines their self worth.
Speaker B:
That's a key point.
Speaker B:
And who's central to building that worth and guiding them?
Speaker B:
The teacher Grouse makes this bold claim.
Speaker B:
Teachers should rank above doctors and lawyers.
Speaker B:
Why does he place them so highly?
Speaker C:
Look, it's not about putting other professions down.
Speaker C:
It's about recognizing who builds the foundation for all other professions.
Speaker C:
His logic is simple.
Speaker C:
Without them, there wouldn't be any doctors and lawyers.
Speaker C:
Teachers shape the minds, the character, the skills of everyone else.
Speaker C:
They're laying the groundwork for society's future.
Speaker C:
Valuing them properly sends a powerful message and hopefully attracts the best people to do that crucial job.
Speaker B:
And he's seen the impact firsthand.
Speaker B:
His German teacher, Neil Birkens, opened gateways for him.
Speaker B:
He talks about Richard Taylor, whose Shakespeare lessons were so good kids didn't want to leave on a Friday.
Speaker B:
These teachers weren't just delivering content, they were igniting something.
Speaker B:
How can teachers today, facing all the pressures, capture some of that gift gateway opening magic?
Speaker C:
Ah, the million dollar question.
Speaker C:
Grouse would say it starts with connection, really knowing the child, not just their test scores.
Speaker C:
Finding that hook, that relevance that makes the subject come alive for them.
Speaker C:
He challenges teachers, doesn't he?
Speaker C:
50 years from now, somebody will say your name.
Speaker C:
What they say is up to you.
Speaker C:
It's a reminder.
Speaker C:
They're dealing with people, not numbers.
Speaker C:
They're role models, setting the tone.
Speaker C:
Even with a packed curriculum, a teacher's passion, their willingness to listen, that can be the gateway.
Speaker C:
It's about bringing their humanity into the classroom.
Speaker B:
Bringing their humanity.
Speaker B:
I like that.
Speaker B:
So moving beyond grades, focusing on people, fostering aspiration, trusting kids, empowering teachers.
Speaker B:
What does this look like when it all comes together?
Speaker B:
This brings us to experience based learning.
Speaker B:
Kidzania is the obvious example from his work.
Speaker B:
That interactive city for children, roleplaying over 100 careers.
Speaker B:
Hillary McAuley called it providing real life inspirational eye openers.
Speaker B:
What makes those eye openers so powerful?
Speaker C:
It's the immersion.
Speaker C:
It makes learning real, tangible.
Speaker C:
You're not just reading about being a firefighter, you are one using the equipment, making decisions.
Speaker C:
It gives kids concrete examples of what's possible, expanding that what they know exists idea we started with.
Speaker C:
And crucially, as Grau says, it creates space to get it wrong and then learn to get it right.
Speaker C:
No red pens, just learning through doing.
Speaker C:
It's the opposite of that feeling.
Speaker C:
You found 80% of kids being in school.
Speaker C:
Because I have to.
Speaker C:
This is about exploration, about finding joy in the challenge.
Speaker B:
That joy seems so often missing, doesn't it?
Speaker B:
Thinking globally now, Grouse isn't afraid to critique, mentioning a post colonial arrogance in English education, a reluctance to learn from others.
Speaker B:
But he points to examples elsewhere.
Speaker B:
What can we learn from other countries?
Speaker C:
Yeah, that postcolonial arrogance can really hold us back.
Speaker C:
Look at Sharjah for example.
Speaker C:
They've declared early years singularly the most important aspect and are investing heavily.
Speaker C:
They're playing the long game, building strong foundations.
Speaker C:
That's a powerful lesson.
Speaker C:
Or CIGI University in Malaysia, making vocational elements mandatory for everyone.
Speaker C:
Or even Singapore, famous for academics.
Speaker C:
Right now, shifting away from just teach and test towards more experiential learning.
Speaker B:
Even Singapore's moving that way.
Speaker B:
That's telling.
Speaker C:
It really is.
Speaker C:
It shows a global shift towards understanding that Education needs to be broader, more engaging, more about real world application than just memorization.
Speaker C:
These places show it can be done.
Speaker B:
So experiential learning is key.
Speaker B:
What about technology, often touted as the big solution?
Speaker B:
What's Grass's take?
Speaker C:
He's very pragmatic.
Speaker C:
He says technology is not the answer, it is a means to a solution.
Speaker C:
He sees its huge potential, calls it potentially the most democratizing factor.
Speaker C:
But.
Speaker C:
And it's big, but only if there's equity in access.
Speaker C:
Covid showed us the massive digital divide.
Speaker C:
Lots of kids lack devices, reliable Internet, even the basic skills.
Speaker C:
So until we fix that foundational access, technology helps some, but it doesn't democratize anything for everyone.
Speaker C:
It needs careful thought, not just chucking laptops at the problem.
Speaker B:
Right.
Speaker B:
Not a silver bullet unless everyone has access.
Speaker B:
He also touches on the increasing economic angle, narrowing the curriculum, pushing stem, maybe at the expense of arts or humanities, driven by political short termism.
Speaker B:
And he shares that provocative line from his grandfather.
Speaker B:
Politicians hate well educated societies because they might not vote for Brexit specifically.
Speaker B:
Specific, yes, but what's the universal point there?
Speaker C:
Well, that Brexit line certainly grabs your attention, but the broader point is universal.
Speaker C:
Absolutely.
Speaker C:
It's about critical thinking.
Speaker C:
Societies that are genuinely well educated, that encourage questioning and analysis across all fields, not just economically useful ones.
Speaker C:
Well, they're harder to sway with simplistic arguments.
Speaker C:
They think more independently.
Speaker C:
When education gets narrowed down to just job skills by short term politics, it risks creating a less engaged, less critical citizenry.
Speaker C:
It's a subtle but important point about the relationship between how we educate and the kind of society we become.
Speaker B:
That definitely gives you pause for thought.
Speaker B:
Shifting gears slightly to something more personal.
Speaker B:
Grouse's own recent experience adds another layer.
Speaker B:
He talks about getting his cancer diagnosis just days after finishing his book manuscript.
Speaker B:
December 4th manuscript done, December 7th diagnosis.
Speaker B:
He said writing the book, that deep reflection actually made him feel better at prioritizing, more resilient, and and helped him cope.
Speaker B:
What does that tell us about reflection?
Speaker C:
It's incredibly powerful, isn't it?
Speaker C:
It shows that taking time to really process your life, your work, your beliefs, it builds serious inner strength.
Speaker C:
It clarifies what matters in our busy lives.
Speaker C:
Reflection can feel like a luxury, but his story suggests it's actually essential for resilience, for navigating tough times.
Speaker C:
It grounds you.
Speaker B:
And he flips the script on hindsight too.
Speaker B:
Usually it's about regret.
Speaker B:
But he asks with the benefit of hindsight, what would you have done?
Speaker B:
The same.
Speaker C:
I really like that it focuses on affirming what work.
Speaker C:
What values held true exactly.
Speaker B:
It turns hindsight into a positive tool.
Speaker B:
And that feeds into his idea of creating a movement of like mindedness.
Speaker B:
He believes change comes from chipping away, having these conversations, challenging the language we use.
Speaker B:
Don't just aim for good or outstanding, he says, aim for wonderful, magical, fantastic.
Speaker B:
That's not just words.
Speaker B:
It's about lifting our collective ambition for what education can be.
Speaker B:
Wonderful, magical, fantastic.
Speaker B:
But achieving that takes real commitment, doesn't it?
Speaker B:
He's blunt about needing to adapt schools to kids, not kids to budgets.
Speaker B:
Even if it means tough talks about funding and tax, he says can't achieve Scandinavian standards of education funded by American levels of taxation doesn't work.
Speaker B:
What's the core message about courage there?
Speaker C:
The message is pretty quality costs.
Speaker C:
Transformative education needs real investment and a long term view.
Speaker C:
The courage needed is political and societal.
Speaker C:
The courage to prioritize children's futures over short term budgets, to have honest debates about how we fund this vital public good.
Speaker C:
It's about aligning our spending with our stated values about children and their potential.
Speaker B:
And finally circling back to teachers.
Speaker B:
He stresses the need to build in time for reflection for them.
Speaker B:
Time to think about the youngsters, think about them themselves.
Speaker B:
He calls teaching the best profession, filled with the best people.
Speaker B:
Why is that reflection time so crucial?
Speaker C:
Because it breaks the cycle of just reacting, just getting through the day.
Speaker C:
Reflection allows teachers to be intentional, to analyze, to adapt, to reconnect with why they teach.
Speaker C:
It prevents burnout, fosters growth and ultimately makes them better teachers.
Speaker C:
A reflective teacher is a more empathetic, more creative, more inspiring teacher.
Speaker C:
It fuels their ability to to be those gateways we talked about.
Speaker B:
What a rich discussion.
Speaker B:
Geargrass really does offer a different lens, urging us back to the child, championing experience, trust and truly valuing teachers not just as instructors, but as firelighters.
Speaker C:
Absolutely.
Speaker C:
It perfectly sums up his philosophy.
Speaker C:
That famous quote, education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.
Speaker B:
So as we wrap up, here's something for you, our listener, to reflect on.
Speaker B:
Inspired by Gur grass vision, what's one small thing you could do, maybe today, maybe this week, in your work, your family, your community?
Speaker B:
One small thing to help light a fire, build trust, or just expand a child's view.
Speaker B:
What's possible, what they might aspire to.
Speaker B:
Thank you for joining us for this deep dive.
Speaker B:
We hope you'll keep exploring these ideas and look out for it through a different lens next year.
Speaker A:
Thanks for listening to the Education on Fire podcast for more information of each episode and to get in touch.
Speaker A:
Go to educationonfire.com Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.
