Ben Brown Is currently Head of UK and Ireland for Optoma Ltd, having previously been head of market development for Promethean and the education businesses lead for Hewlett-Packard, Samsung and XMA in the UK. He has worked in the education technology sector for over 20 years and has developed a real passion for advancing the use of technology to support teaching and learning.

Now the Chair of Trustees at Astrea Academy Trust, he previously sat on the Board of Trustees at the David Ross Education Trust. Recently he has also been a trustee at the Tackley Education Trust. Ben has, throughout his career, looked at the challenges in education and how technology is best placed to resolve them, this has led to him working closely with the DfE as well as Academy Trusts such as ARK, Reach2 and United Learning.

Takeaways:

• Effective implementation of new technologies in education requires concise, easily digestible training materials for teachers.
• The duration of instructional videos should ideally range from one to two minutes to accommodate teachers' busy schedules.
• Investments in technology during the COVID-19 pandemic significantly advanced the integration of digital tools in educational settings.
• The challenge lies not merely in providing technology but ensuring its effective utilization within educational frameworks.
• A focus on empowering teachers through tailored training is crucial for maximizing the benefits of new technology in classrooms.
• To foster engagement, technology must solve existing educational challenges rather than simply being used for its own sake.

Website

www.optoma.co.uk

Multi-award-winning interactive displays, professional displays, LED displays, projectors and software to suit every education environment.

Social media Information

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-brown-a017b621/

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If you're asking them to learn a new technology and understand that new technology, you need to get it into snippets that are going to fit their schedule.

So we try and create videos that are between 1, 2 minutes long.

So it's literally while the kettle's boiling and they have their coffee in the morning, they could just watch that video.

If it doesn't work well and they're not getting much out of it early, early on in the implementation, it's really difficult to turn that back on later.

We saw huge investment in technology over Covid and a lot of schools and colleges really move forward use of technology because they had to use it.

I think we've got to be very careful.

We don't see that as an elastic band and we snap back out of COVID to actually we're in the classroom again.

It's not as important to use as much of the technology as we were in the past.

Fear of the unknown.

And I think that's been technology's biggest challenge since we started to digitize has been people just don't.

If they don't know it, generally there is a fear of that, or at least a trepidation of using that technology.

Don't let the things you can't impact or can't change really get to you.

But if you really want to take ownership of something, just try and expand that circle of influence so you can get out and do it.

That was Ben Browning.

He is currently head of UK and Ireland for Optima Ltd.

Now he has 20 years in the education technology space and also has some experience as being part of the Board of Trustees for Educational Trust.

So this is a fantastic conversation about where these two worlds collide and his passion for education technology.

Hello, my name is Mark Taylor and welcome to the Education on Far podcast, the place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world.

Listen to teachers, parents and mentors share how they are supporting children to live their best authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all.

Hi, Ben, thank you so much for joining us here on the Education on Far podcast.

It's always great to chat to somebody who's got, I think, a foot in both camps in terms of the idea of technology, which is such a big factor, obviously in this current day and age, but also with that real sort of idea of what education's about on the ground, which of course you have with your other hat on, as it were.

So, yeah, thanks so much for being here.

Yeah, pleasure.

No, I'm really looking forward to it.

Thanks for having me on.

So why don't we start with that kind of both sides of that coin, the idea of where that educational passions come from, but at the same time being able to deliver that with the idea of obviously what Optima does and the technology that's available for people.

Absolutely.

As I say, I think, you know, I've been working in education technology now for 25 years.

I think it was always going to be education technology and my mum was a teacher and I don't think I was ever going to get away without having been engaged with their education at some point.

And I think one of the key drivers for me was always how can we engage?

I, I wasn't necessarily that engaged at school with my learning, not as well as I should have been, and that's partially my, my fault.

But how can we try and engage those children that maybe aren't as engaged as they are?

And I've always looked at technology in that way and how can we continue to try and engage, gauge them?

And through that the opportunity came up to become a governor at a local school in quite a deprived area of Northampton, Knitter, where I live.

And I thought, you know, I should do this, I should give something back.

I've been working in education technology, I should really try and give something back.

And that was the start of my journey.

And here we are sort of 10 years on in governance and I'm obviously now chair of trustees at Australia Schools and I, I still spend a huge amount of time trying to get back into that governance perspective and I would always encourage anyone who even has a slight thought that that might be for them to, to go and investigate it, because it's massively rewarding and I really get a huge amount from it.

But it also allows me to really understand the challenges in education.

And I've always talked about technology shouldn't be there for technology's sake.

It's, are we solving the problems?

Are we solving those challenges that we're seeing in the education sector?

And can we really use technology to try and drive some of that change that's needed?

So why don't we start at that point, like you say about being engaged when you were at school?

Because I think we can all kind of relate to that, can all think back and think about those lessons that we loved, the lessons that we didn't.

The, you know, the overarching idea of I like school, but it was okay or something I just had to do.

So what do you think is maybe different now that would have helped you back Then you know, from a technology sort of standpoint or, or even I guess from that sort of educational standpoint, sort of knowing what you do through that governance idea.

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point and I do think there has been massive change, massive change we've seen over well, 27 years since I was last at school and I was always a doer.

I love the, if you looked at my sort of favorite lessons, you know, it would be sort of drama, technology, science.

I did love maths, but again this is another major change we've seen.

I was probably slightly on the, the autism spectrum and I think that was, was not recognized, wasn't even discussed back, back when I was at school.

And so those kind of things that I got really into and really engaged in that, that was what really drove my concentration.

Wasn't necessarily as good when it was very much a written or a traditional teaching style.

And I think there is much more understanding of those nuances to, to every child now.

And I think, you know, when you're, when you're looking at your cohort and you're looking at send within a school, understanding and making sure that every child is getting the best education that they, they can within your school or within your trust is, is, is really important.

I don't necessarily feel as though that was in place when, when I was first at school.

And I think also some of the technologies that have been bought in so that ability to have devices, those devices engaging with a front of, a front of class device, well that's interactive, non interactive but, but, but yeah, you know, such a, such as those devices allow you to really be able to engage and do these things within what is a more traditional class environment and what I think that bring and allows more people to be able to access education.

And I think we've got to be very careful.

Some people are always worried is there too much technology.

And I think the technology, if it's used correctly and that is part of your requirement, the challenges you're trying to solve, the technology is solving those challenges.

There can't be too much technology if it's doing the right job.

However, if there's technology there for technology's sake or the key thing around training, you know, if people don't know how to use the technology then then there is obviously a real challenge there.

So why don't we go down that rabbit hole slightly a little bit.

So tell us a little bit in terms of what it is that as a company that you're able to sort of provide Schools with and, and how that works in the way that you've just, you've just explained and how that sort of training and understanding sort of fits in with that as well.

Yeah, I think that's a really good point.

So if I look at Optima, where I think we really are quite unique is most people, if you speak to them about Optima knows for a projection we're still a global leader in that, in that area and continue to be so.

But we've over recent years moved into interactive and non interactive flat panels and led.

And because we were a little bit later to market with especially the interactive panels, we've not taken a view that we need our own educational software.

What we've tried to do is make our panels work really well with what teachers are already using.

So in, in the main it would be a PowerPoint or Google Slides, Microsoft PowerPoint.

Well actually just allowing them to be able to use the content and the, the lessons that they've been using for the past however many years, but just be able to enhance those and be able to work alongside those with the solutions on the panels is really, really important for two reason it's going to be a lot.

You're not having to train them up on two things.

You know, the technology is fairly intuitive, fairly simple to, to use but actually they feel comfortable because they're using those PowerPoint or they're using that, those Google Slides.

They have been for a long time anyway and I think the more comfortable you can make them feel with the technology when you're introducing them it to them, the better.

I think the other thing that we would try and do is make sure the training's right as well.

So if we take you know, one of our key education customers, Potter, is a good one actually we, we do almost like a good, better best training.

So you have your, your beginners training and your intermediate, your expert training that's there.

Well actually 75% of teachers just want the beginner one.

They just want to know I can connect my device to the, the panel at the front of Loom and I can engage with those, interact with them, save the work that I'm doing, share that with the class.

That's all I need to know.

But then you do get the other people that want to understand more, want to use more the functionality that's in there and when you sort of get up into that expert area, which we wouldn't probably do all in one day, but you might do that over a year's years worth of training, that's where you can start looking at things like Digital champions, which, you know, I'm a massive fan of, because actually, teachers like talking peer to peer around how to use the technology and they don't want to ask someone else because sometimes they feel as though, you know, am I looking a little bit silly asking this question?

Well, actually, if it's.

It's.

One of your teachers is in the, at the staff room at lunchtime, they just come and give you a couple of minutes to show you how to do it.

They're much more comfortable in doing that than having to either reach out to us or try and reach out to maybe the partner they've worked with on the project to ask them how they're doing something.

So we find that really important.

I think the last part of that is also, teachers are really busy, so if you're asking them to learn a new technology and understand that new technology, you need to get it into snippets that are going to fit their schedule.

So we try and create, create videos that are between 1, 2 minutes long.

So it's literally while the kettle's boiling and they have their coffee in the morning, they could just watch that video.

It allows them to be able to access the exact functionality they want to use and just watch a very quick video that can get them up to date.

Going and seeing a school or a trust or a college for just, you know, an hour a year and doing a bit of training, you know, you might get the odd person who picks up four or five points, but.

But normally they might take one thing away and it's more around that little drip feeding.

The ability for teachers to be able to learn, you know, that they do want to in the vast majority of cases, you just got to make it easy for them to be able to do so.

And I think the thing that really strikes me is the fact that if you think about how young people learn and, well, how we all learn, but certainly young people, then you're interacting and you're learning in that same way.

I've never seen a child decide I need to go on an iPhone course or how to use my tablet.

It's intuitive and they just learn and they chat to their friends.

And then, you know, my kids come home and it's like, why are you doing it that way, dad?

Because you can just do this.

So this or whatever it happens to me and so I'm learning in the same way, you know, and it's not like I don't know about technology.

We're here doing it Doing a podcast over the Internet, you know, but there are certain things that they just do in their part of it.

I think they're never sort of, oh, I need to learn everything.

It's what do I need?

Like you said, what do I need now?

How can I do that and how can I expand?

And that ongoing journey, that ongoing learning is just something which is just intuitive and part of what we need to do in.

I think, because technology is changing all the time, it means that we're never, we're never sort of scared that it's moving on.

I've got everything and now it's going to all change.

And like I say, if you're sort of adapting to what you're doing with the base level of what everyone's doing already, then that's brilliant and then you're able to kind of change and enhance from there as well.

And it makes perfect sense.

But I think in the educational climate of we've got, you know, training days that we've got to do and get all these things done, that there is, there is a mindset and I guess that sort of comes from the, the leadership and like you say, from governance and that kind of thing as well, sort of setting the tone of how that might work.

And this is like I was saying at the beginning about the.

That sort of both camps there is the fact that you can say, well, I understand this, this is how it works and this is why it works.

And, and I guess maybe those are some of the sorts of conversations that you're able to share.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I.

One of the things that ultimately was, you know, we know the technology when we're putting it into education is for teachers, but we need it by teachers as well.

We're always taking feedback, we're always taking feedb.

No, training on all technology is absolutely key.

We're always taking feedback.

And all of our customers, when they've had training sessions, you say inset day is the classic.

So you sit there, we'll get an hour from 3 till 4 o' clock on an inset day when they've already had their safeguarding, their prevent training, health and safety training, they've got so many things going around their brain that time.

We can't expect that to be their 1 focus on the technology for the, the whole year.

So we've really listened to that.

And whilst we'll still do those sessions, obviously, and we support all of our customers, you know, training from, from us is, is part of what you get when you buy an Optima product.

We will train you on it.

It's absolutely key.

I think it a lot, a lot of people don't understand how important it is.

If people don't use the technology, don't interact with it and, and get the most out of it and see the real value, they're not going to use that technology.

Again, why would they buy out.

I wouldn't expect them to buy our technology if they weren't getting the most out of it.

So what we're trying to do is always get feedback from teachers, but not only teachers as well other people in education and say leadership teams or the IT teams.

We try and take as much feedback from them on the things that have worked.

Maybe not even around an Optima project previously could have been, could have been anything else, could have been their devices, could have been the, the previous technology that had front of the class but listening what's really worked for them and then try and build around that because it's so important that we get that right.

Because if they don't use it, if I say very quickly, if it doesn't work well and they're not getting much out of it early on in the implementation, it's really difficult to turn that back on later on down the line.

So we do try to take as much feedback from the end users as possible because that's where you get a successful project.

It's interesting now as you say from a governance perspective, it's almost the first, you know, wherever I've worked the technologies they might invest in a different technology they might do that's, you know, that's absolutely fine.

First question is always have we got the training to support its implementation?

From my perspective, because we haven't.

I'm going to push back and I want to make sure that that is part of what we're getting because I think it's actually incumbent on the technology companies to, to, to offer that training.

I mean I'm quite robust about it that whenever we sell any of our technology into education we are content contacting them over the, over the next sort of month or two to say, look, you know, we noticed we haven't got any training booked in you we want to come and do that.

Can we look at when we would best be able to do that or can we set up a portal where you can access it online?

We don't want you to be without any training because actually one that could never negatively impact us as a, as a business.

From a business perspective, from your side, I don't think you're going to get the most out of your investment.

And that's what we're, we're here to try and make sure that you do.

And, and I really liked when you said about those sort of one or two minute videos, because it's what we all do as well, isn't it?

Oh, I, I remember them saying something about something or I know this is possible because I've seen someone use it in the past.

I just need that quick answer, you know, like say, whether it's plugging this lead into here or connecting this or whatever or whatever it happens to be.

And I think having that sort of like say the old school in traditional ways of, of having the training, because that's the way schools still work.

But actually then I can find this now, the ongoing conversations, the ongoing support and I think, I think people sort of expect that now a little bit more.

But I think like say both sides being aware of it from a company point of view and a relationship point of view, because I think that's the key, isn't it?

Because they might have a certain amount of technology that's going on, but it's sort of how can we expand that if we want to, or how can we make this work in, in other ways as well?

And I think once you kind of have that relationship going, I think certainly for me, as, as the technology becomes more and more important in my life, I want to be sort of feel comfortable that the people that I'm dealing with have got my back and I think the ethos as well, which is why I always love these conversations.

Because, you know, you can go to the website and you can learn all these things, but when you hear there's a real person behind it who's got the passion for education and they sort of really know what they're doing, you sort of think, well, I want to support them, to help them support what they're doing in other places and all that kind of thing as well.

And then, and then you get that human interaction which is what people worry about with technology, but I think it highlights it in some ways as well.

Yeah, it's, it's quite interesting because we, we, we were looking at how are people going to access it.

And obviously the first thing that we, we looked at was actually where are they going to watch what teachers going to do.

And, and when we spoke to them, they're like, we go on YouTube normally, so what.

The first thing we made sure about our videos, they're obviously available via our website and the training that we're doing but actually we make them available on YouTube because people just go onto YouTube and, and, and, and search for something.

And the interesting thing from, from me, Tik Tok's where people go and what, that's where they go and find out how to do something.

I want to do this, how do I do it?

Tik Tok will be where they find it probably.

And I'm not really a user, probably does show my age a little bit.

But, but, but I think that we need to be fully aware all times where are people trying to access this?

So I think it's great we're building out what we do around that.

But we've got to be really aware of where, where the technology trends are going because if we're not, you can do all the videos you want, but if no one can find them and doesn't, doesn't know where they are, actually they're pretty, they're pretty pointless.

So we've done that around the YouTube and that's been really successful for us actually.

And it's really allowed teachers to be able to easily access any of the content that we produce.

But we've got to be aware that actually where that might be the right place now doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be in a few years time.

So again, technology always changes, but those platforms are where people consume their, their learning and their knowledge is constantly changing, exactly the same as in education.

But there's these, these platforms are constantly changing and looking at how we can best deliver that, the learning out to people is really, really important because it's been one of the biggest, the biggest challenges for technology is look, you can get the technology into, into schools, into the classrooms, colleges, universities, and get it in there.

Can you get it being used?

Because that's where you're really impactful and do really buy into that.

It was really interesting over Covid actually we saw a huge investment in technology over, over Covid and a lot of schools and colleges really moved forward with their use of technology because they had to use it.

It wasn't a question of oh, do we know you?

You?

Look, we've got, we've got to provide these remote lessons.

We're going to have to use the technology front of class.

Technology that could interact so the, the students could see what was happening at home as it was actually happening in the classroom.

Being able to engage with that content.

I think we've got to be very careful.

We don't see that as an elastic band and we snap back out of COVID to Actually, we're in the classroom again.

It's not as important to use as much of the technology as we were in the past because I actually think there was a huge amount of positive work done over Kobe where people were far more engaged, far more engaged because they were using more of that technology.

That was obviously a massive investment from a government around that time.

But that investment's not there now.

And now we're sort of five years on.

You know, the, the technology is getting to an age of, well, actually, are we going to start replacing that or actually do we need to replace it?

And I think that's a big risk for us as technology companies.

If we've not made sure that people are using that technology, you know, are they going to reinvest in it?

And that's why, you know, I'm so passionate about making sure they are getting the most out of their investment.

It's really important.

Yeah.

There are two things that really strike me there.

The COVID thing I find fascinating because I like you, was just thought, well, the world's changed overnight and education had to change overnight in so many ways.

And there were obviously positives and negatives to all of those things.

But I think the technology side of it and it suddenly being in foot, I think first and foremost in the front of everyone's mind, you know, and there are obviously people that didn't have access and that's sort of a whole different sort of conversation in some ways.

But the fact that it was, we can now do this and there are many people who were doing it who wouldn't have done it before.

And I thought it would kick on, but actually there was such a big.

But now we need to get back to normal.

And it kind of almost went further back than they were before as well.

And I'm.

What I'm hoping is, is that this sort of conversation that we're having now maybe is what people are starting to think, is that, oh, well, we kind of got back to normal.

We sort of set the.

Set our base level in education returned to what it was.

But actually we're maybe missing out on what the advantages were when we were doing that.

And once we start to sort of understand that and we can then start to set our stall out.

We're doing this because we want to, not because we had.

Maybe we'll sort of make inroads a little bit faster again as we move forward.

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point.

I think if we look at some of the key areas.

So if we look at government and what they're sort of key, key folks.

So, so massively so attendance.

But also the word we keep hearing from new government around education is belonging.

And I think that if we look at that, look at that.

You know, a lot of children were using all this technology and really felt engaged with their learning through using that.

Using that technology.

As I say, we are in a very digitized world.

We need to be a bit careful and I know there's especially around mobile phones which a lot of people have got very differing views on around how.

How they can be used and we are turning into a sort of.

Rather than growing up playing, we're growing up on our phones, you know, even as young children.

That's been seen now and is that right?

Is that the right way of what we should be encouraging?

So I think you need to be careful around the use of technology.

But actually a lot of children felt really eng.

In their learning during that.

That during COVID and now we've come back out of that.

It's been really difficult to.

To drive back attendance to where it was prior because aren't necessarily seeing the same uses of technology and, and that kind of bond with school was.

Was gone with the parents a little bit.

Well, you know, I had the children at home and they learn absolutely fine whilst they're here and it's been a really difficult one to try and get a children back into school to the same extent as they were before.

I think we, I think we're just starting to crack that now and really starting to see that happening.

But I do think the real engagement that technology gave a lot of children wasn't so much there when they went back and I think whilst we want to be careful because we want them to.

You I said when I was engaged in education was when I was doing something.

So we want them to actually be doing things and having experiences all the time.

But I do think technology does bring something to a.

A generation that I was already native when they come to school.

I think it's important we don't just ignore that and feel that well actually we'll go back to where we were previously and you know, the technology will come down, come down the line.

I think it's a very difficult, a very difficult problem to crack.

But I do think technology does play a part in that because the generation we're seeing in school at the moment definitely are digitally native and like to access learning in that way way.

Yeah, and I think it's where the attendance thing is a really difficult one, isn't it?

Because like you said, engagement is probably the key thing, rather than attendance and attendance being unphysically in this space, as opposed to if, if they not, if the child is not attending, as it were, in that traditional sense, but they are engaging elsewhere for whatever reason that happens to be, then that's better than just the negativity of not attending.

And, and there's probably a whole series of podcasts based around that.

But, but it's, I think, I think it is a key thing and it's, is how we sort of look at these sort of middle areas of kind of does it have to look in what school classrooms used to look like?

Technology can change how that works.

The needs of children are changing based on the modern world and also the way that we're interacting as well.

So this sort of blend of how education and learning looks in the traditional sense, in the more kind of personalized learning, in the way AI is revolutionizing what's possible.

But like I say, within the same safeguards and all those things as well, I hope that these sorts of conversations, and at all levels, like I say, whether we're talking to ministers, whether we're talking to companies, whether we're talking to young people in schools, we can find a way of everyone being supported in the way that they can.

Because I think we have the opportunity to do that now in a way that we were never able to do before.

Yeah, I, I think you're right, actually.

And when, when we look you, it's interesting you talk about that engagement.

I think that's, that's absolutely key because interesting when you go into a classroom in a school and actually it's not that there's bad behavior in there, but are the children actually engaged in their learning or are they just playing around with a pencil at the front?

And I think, and I go back to that sort of individualized learning, some people just access content better digitally than they do on a piece of paper.

Now, whilst we absolutely still need children, writing and being able to read is essential to all learning.

I mean, it is the access to being at education, is being able to read.

I think all these things are really important.

But you can't just say to some, well, actually, you know, we're not going to give you the ability to be able to access stuff digitally when that is that the, the best or the easiest way for them to be able to do so.

So I think it's really important we try.

You know, the first one's getting people into school as we sort of say, great We've got all the children in.

Are they now engaged in their learning?

And I think, you know, you, you also mentioned AI there, and I think that's another really interesting one because there's so many.

Yeah, there's a million discussions going on at the moment around AI and education and the positives or negatives of it.

I obviously saw some stuff around Gemini and we're doing a lot with our developer and around our panels around AI at the moment.

And how can you potentially use AI to make it much easier to.

To deliver a bespoke education into, into the classrooms?

Because, as I say, every class is different, every lesson is different.

So even if you've got the same plan, that doesn't mean the lesson is going to follow the same journey.

And I think that's where I can, can come in useful because actually it very quickly can allow you to create content, allow you to create like a scheme of work for a class that maybe has gone in a different direction to how you thought that was going to go from a previous experience.

So I think, whilst I absolutely think we need to be careful with AI, I think it does bring opportunity, but it's just, again, it'll be back to that education and the training on how to use it to get the positive impacts out of it, rather than be a bit.

Let's not be scared of.

It's here, so let's not be scared of it.

I think we need to embrace it.

I think we need.

It needs to be managed and we need to be very careful of the challenges it could bring.

But actually, let's find out how it can really make a difference.

Can it really help us in delivering a better education to our children?

I don't think ignoring it is going to be the right way of doing that.

I think it's about embracing it and finding the best ways to embed it into our education system.

System, yeah, I completely agree.

And I think, you know, we are in a modern world, you know, and while the reading and writing is incredibly important, it's right at the front of everything that we do.

Understanding that the first thing a child is going to do is then go to ucas and put things online or they're going to go to college or they're going to have an interview which is over zoom, or whatever it happens to be.

There has to be an understanding of how all that fits and why it means.

And, you know, we don't still ask children to say, you're not allowed to use Google.

The library at school doesn't have the information you need, could you go into the town centre and then find all that information?

Of course that now becomes part of it and AI is just in my idea anyway just a continual implementation of how that works in a more personalized way and more supportive way depending on how you're going to be using it.

And so I think the fear of the unknown is what makes people obviously really scared.

And I agree with you.

The engaging with it and understanding it and the training and, and putting it in the heart of what you know in a way that you want it to be is going to be a sort of a really positive outcome then like say rather than that kind of oh no, we can't go there because the, the world's going to end because we don't know how it's going to end up.

No, I think you're absolutely right.

I think we say around the fear, that's what it is, the fear of the unknown.

And I think that's technology's been technology's biggest challenge since, since we started to digitize has been people just don't if they don't know it generally there is a fear of that or at least a trepidation of that of using that, that technology.

And we, we still now there's very little digital training in teacher training and so and that's been sort of one of the, the more amusing things when you go go in especially in a primary school.

Well the, the youngest teacher's got to be the technology expert because you know they're the youngest one they must be engaged with it.

But when they're, they've been taught to te very little digital in there so they actually come in just, just wanting to be able to try and teach.

They're scared enough about you know, am I, have I, you know, have I learned the right things?

Am I going to be a good teacher?

You know, they're more worried about that and yet we're trying to force the digital on them where there's been no training.

So I do, I do think there probably is something that can be done done there around trying to bring more digital into that, that, that teach training.

And I think as I say I think think there is a lot of look work being done at the moment.

You know, Google have done a lot around Gemini etc around sort of the AI and trying to take that fear out of it and embrace it and allow the, allow teachers to be able to explore it without worrying that it's going to cause an issue or not actually go as well as they thought I think you just need to take that fear out of it.

And it's exactly the same as the same with fear, front of class, technology, you.

I think the first job for us is we want the teacher to know how to use that technology better than their students because that what's, that's what creates the fear.

If they ever feel as though they're in a situation where actually the students probably know stuff better than them, that's where they become a bit more reticent to.

To engage.

Yeah, it definitely has to be a learning journey together, I think, you know, and that just changes the atmosphere of a classroom as well.

I mean, we've had great conversations about that over the, over the years.

Sure.

With both of your hats on the.

The cost of technology I find fascinating because there are some points of view which are kind of, we'd love to do this, but we can't afford it.

There's just no money in anything at the minute.

And then there's the other side, which is we haven't got the money to do it now, but how can we find it?

And you know, these can be large investments because we're talking about multiple classrooms, we're talking about multiple setups and maybe multiple devices in an ideal world of you'd like to have as opposed to maybe what you're trying to do.

So how do you sort of navigate that from sort of the business side and also from that sort of governance side of being able to say, right, okay, what are we trying to achieve here?

Why are we trying to do it?

And how do we actually find a way of making that a reality if that's indeed where we want to move forward to?

Yeah, that's really interesting question.

So obviously in, in the UK we're a very mature market when it comes to technology.

So actually that, that maturity means that there is a larger scale of deployment of technology within education, which has driven down the pricing, being very honest, pretty much across all technologies that prices driven down as it's more commoditized.

So hopefully that makes these things more affordable.

Whether it's front of class, whatever the technologies they're investing, it makes it more affordable for education.

But we do know that budgets are one of the most challenged areas in education.

I mean, the.

I'm always amazed at how well at Australia our team managed to.

To get every single penny out of the budget and get every single.

And I mean, the government also drive, you know, you must have a surplus to.

Right, so we.

You have to find a bit of a surplus.

Yeah, you can't be overspending.

You know, you need your reserves there, but you've still got to deliver.

You know, we should be aiming, everyone should be aiming to deliver an outstanding education with the, the budgets that are there.

So I think from a technology perspective, we need to make sure that our technology adds value, real value, as in it can, it can help as part of a solution.

And I'm, I'm very careful not to say, right, just buy a bit of technology.

It's, it's definitely no silver bullet to delivering a great education.

But I think if it can be part of the, your education delivery, it adds value to, it engages students, gets students into school, allows teachers to be able to teach and deliver a really engaging lesson, then I think we need to make it affordable.

There are a number of ways to do that.

So actually Department for Education have changed obviously around leasing technology, whereas I totally understand what you're saying around if you wanted to roll out the whole school and go back to the training bit, a little bit here.

So if you're trying to roll out a whole school, especially a secondary school, and you're talk 80 classrooms, that's a massive investment they've got to make to do all of those 80 classrooms in a single hit, if that's how they're going to do it.

And if you're not going to do it in single hit and then you've not got the, you've only, you've got different technologies in different classrooms, you've got the training issue again.

So what am I going to be using today?

Am I going to be using, you know, this optimal or a, another panel?

And I think, you know, there's a couple of ways to do it.

So, so first is around that financing.

So actually can, as a, as a, do you need to own that device?

And I think actually in education it's one of those areas where they still feel, you know, we need to buy the device that we've got to buy whatever the piece of technology is, we have to buy it.

And they're not really moved into as a service, that kind of rental or as a service market, which is quite strange when you think, you know, we talked about mobile phones earlier.

You know, very few people actually buy their mobile phones anymore.

It's part of a, a service that you service you get.

Same with broadband, same with everything else.

And, and I think, I think that ability to be able to do that.

So actually look at what technology you want to deliver.

You know, what technology you need in your school to be able to have the right solution, deliver.

And then you know, do you have to own that technology or actually is it, is it better for you if actually you, you took that out sort of as a service, a lease, a rental, however you, you wanted to position it.

But the changes by the DfE to allow up to five year leases has really opened that up.

When you come to talk about front of class technology as it probably was back in the day.

And I think the other area is, you know, one technologies we've been working on is, is Hive.

We've got a box called Hive, which actually means you can change your 25% of whatever it was, 20 panels, you know, so 25% of your estate actually Hive just will turn the rest of your panels, whatever they are, into an optimal panel.

So actually you don't need to do that.

You don't need to get rid of some technology that maybe is still functioning really well as a piece of hardware there.

But you want to upgrade the Android on it or you wanted to have the same experience in every single one of the, the classrooms.

Hive Manager allows you to be able to do that.

So I think it's again, it's incumbent on the technology companies to try and make the technology afford affordable.

If you, if you're creating technology that is really going to help schools and, and drive forward the educational delivery within those schools, it's, it's incumbent on us to be able to make that affordable and find ways for, for schools to be able to invest in the technology, especially here.

But you know, many times before is, is focusing on how can we make it as affordable as possible for, for schools to be able to access the technology.

And I think as well, when you sort of see that full circle, if you can see your end result of your lesson being this is what it looked like, this is how the engagement was done, this is how everyone was taking part in that lesson.

And then that technology was integral to how that was then we definitely want that as opposed to, to.

I'm putting my hand up in the meeting saying yes please, could we have another whiteboard or however basic you want to look.

And, and, and it's seeing like say all sides of that and how all those conversations fits in and, and, and even like say the leasing idea.

You know, I remember the, the Granada and radio rentals.

I mean when I was younger we were never going to be buying a telly.

It was all about that for exactly that reason.

And despite, I think especially as technology is moving on a little bit like we talked about before, if you're buying into a company in an ethos, in a way of working, working and it's because you know that actually by the time you've bought this, this device right outright, there's going to be another one that you probably want already.

Then like I say, you start wasting a lot of money then or you get, you were right at the forefront of where you wanted your technology to be and now you're sort of at the back end of it and you're not able to then go around that cycle.

So that continual understanding of that we're developing and learning and working together as a, is a community of people wanting to support education.

Like, like I say, within that sort of technological, technological world as it were, I think is a really important factor.

Yeah, no, I totally agree.

And I think, you know, it's, it's really important that you work collaboratively.

It always has.

You know, I always, I always look at these things and it's always around partnerships where you get the best outcomes are.

Look, you know, as a technology company we want to sell our technology, that's the thing.

But actually the best outcomes are where we work in partnership and we look at what, what are your challenges, how are we going to solve those?

We think these are the technologies that will do that, the best job of that.

Let's, how are we going to implement that, you know, timescales, what that's going to roll out is going to look like, how are we going to provide the training on it?

If you sit down and go through all of those areas, you're leaving very few gaps that it could fall down.

And I think too often people are too worried about just well, let's just get the technology out the door and we'll worry about down line.

It's very risky.

Bad experiences are much, much worse than if you've, as I say, work closely, worked in partnership with someone and are able to deliver a really value added solution, a bad experience.

You're not going to get the chance to do that again.

I think, you know, there's always challenges and, and I think if you, you know, again, if you're working closely with someone in a partnership, well, you work through those together I think.

But I think sometimes that can get lost a little bit and people are just worried about that.

And the initial, we just need to, you know, get, get the sale, get the, the technology out the door.

And I think that's a dangerous, dangerous game actually because I think it's more important to make sure that the experience is positive and the value I'VE talked about a lot.

The value of the technology is seen by the, by the education establishment and if they don't then there's more of a challenge down the line.

I think it's really important that partnerships are built in all of these kinds of.

Yeah.

And, and it just reminds me one of the questions I ask, you know, is there a teacher that you remember or an education experience that you remember?

And the reason I just suddenly thought about it there is the fact that the answer to that often from people is I remember how I was made to feel or the, the, the teacher saw me or whatever that happened to be.

It's never.

This teacher taught me how to do two plus two in the best possible way.

And I think technology is the same sort of thing as I, I don't remember exactly what brand that whiteboard happened to be but the way I used it and what I felt from it, it made all, made all the difference.

And yeah.

So I, I just suddenly struck me that it's always about the way you feel about it and what you're able to do because of it rather than the actual thing itself.

It is.

Yeah.

It's quite interesting.

You talk so the, my first ever head teacher.

I remember my first day at school which sounds crazy 4 years old but I remember and it was Mr.

Crozier was my first ever head teacher and he, I, I lived quite close to the school, literally two doors and down from, from the school and every morning when I'd walk up I'd be the first person at school pretty much.

Well my mum was a teacher.

She wasn't going to let me be late so she got sent me up there first thing in, in my shorts.

Miss School, School top for the first day and every single day meet me at the door every single day and say no pints of milk today Mr.

Brown and shut the door on me and, and it still sits with me now.

That was my first ever experience and I, I still laugh about it, laugh about it now.

It was a, it was yeah it great ed teacher and you know he really nurtured.

It was a small school, probably only 30 odd children but he, he, he really nurtured the, the, the people there and, and he didn't feel like you were going to school as I had a very positive experience at primary school and I think he had a lot to do with that.

So yeah, it's, it's sometimes it's, you know I mentioned it earlier and they were using that word a lot belonging.

You felt you belonged there because you know, he made you feel very comfortable in, in, in, in his school.

Yeah.

And, and you can, you can see the parallels, can't you?

Because like I say, understanding that and bringing that into the job that you do, when you're sort of responsible for so many people and so many opportunities and the same sitting on, on a panel in the governance, you're sort of able to say, but this is what we're trying to do.

This is what we want to be able to do for all of those reasons as well.

And it doesn't have to even be a specific conversation about that.

But I think you inherently know this is what's right for you, and it feels like it's the right thing to do.

And then all those conversations and the decisions can stem from that, but it's from a rarely a really sort of human positive place.

And I think that can only then sort of produce positive outcomes.

Oh, I, I, I, I totally agree.

I think, I like, I think if I will try and be very positive, I think, I think it's a really important thing for me.

I think I work better, I think I deliver better outcomes.

You know, whether it's educationally or, or within a business.

When I'm feeling, and I'm, I'm being positive, I think it's very easy to, if you're feeling negative, to make negative decisions.

And I try not to do that, try and be positive.

And I think, you know, maybe that, maybe that does come from, you know, my first experience in education because there was always a smile and it was always very positive and, and very engaging when I went there.

And I think maybe that's it, maybe that's what's driven how I am very, very much now in, in both my a, from a business perspective, but also from, yeah.

With, with my trustee work.

Yeah.

Is there a piece of advice you were ever given or a piece of advice you might give your younger self now looking back as a more mature Ben, shall we say that maybe with that sort of education hat on.

Yeah.

I can't really get away with that with the gray in my beard now, can I?

Definitely want to chill, but no.

So I, I think if I tell you one of the things I, I always, always, always keep in mind.

Oh, I, I talk about being really positive and I, I think it's in, I used to let a lot of things affect me when I was younger.

They're out of my control and I don't now.

I'm always, I'm always very positive and I kind of think it as A, as a circle of influence and whatever's in my circle of influence, I really care about that and I make sure I have the full impact I can on those things in my circle of influence.

But there's always things that are outside, outside of the circle of influence.

Now there's two ways of dealing with that.

Do you actually expand your circle of influence and take ownership of those things that don't sit within it, inside it, so you can have an impact on and change those things or do you actually say, just outside my circle of influence, I'm not going to let it, you know, I can't, I can't change that.

I can't impact it and therefore I should let that go.

And I think that's allowed me from a mental perspective to be much more effective.

Effective because when things are, I can't do something about anything, I don't worry about it.

I don't let it impact on what my, I'm going to do.

However, if I can see something that is impacting what's happening and I, I can't, can't control at the moment, but I can see that I could, then I might try and expand that circle of influence so I can take hold ownership of that little area and then try and try and change it.

So I think look at your circle of influence influence.

Don't let the things you can't impact or can't change really get to you.

But if you really want to take ownership of something, just try and expand that circle of influence so you can get out and do it.

And that's allowed me to, that's allowed me to be a lot more effective, I think, you know, in my whole life.

But, but, but it definitely works massively well for me within, within business.

Yeah, well, thank you for that because I think, I think the way you've articulated that is really clear to see and especially people within education, education, there are so many things that you can't necessarily have control over but like say, deciding what you can and then stepping away from the stuff that you can't like say to look after yourself and, and to, I think just understanding it and having that conversation with yourself has a really sort of positive impact.

So yeah, really, really important.

Is there a resource you'd like to share?

And this can be personal or professional, anything from a song, video, book, podcast.

But, but yeah, something that's happening, an impact.

Thinking about it's difficult.

Difficult, isn't it?

I'm not sure.

There is something that's, that's been there forever, but I'm a huge cricket fan and obviously Jimmy Anderson finished his career last year and he, he had a book come out and I listened to it over last year, Finding the Edge and his delivery in it is, is brilliant and it has really.

I've listened to it three times and I have never listened to an audiobook more than once.

It's just, it's almost as good as his bowling action.

He just delivers it so well and, and he, I think he gives a lot in that, in that book, actually gives a lot of advice that just around how to be the best person that you can.

You know.

I don't think he was particularly engaged in his education like, like me, which is maybe why it spoke to me particularly, but he became the greatest fastball that's lived.

And I think the way that he articulates that in a very humble way about how he, how he did that, that, you know, it wasn't just, it wasn't.

I was just the best and that's how it was.

It was, it was really hard work and he had a lot.

He's had plenty of downs as, as well as ups.

And I think since reading that book, I mean, I was always a massive fan when he was playing for England, but I, I'm a fan of him as a person now and I'd recommend anyone, if they, if they wanted an audiobook to go in that and they don even really need to be cricket fans.

I don't think it was.

Yeah, really, really, really great listen.

Yeah, brilliant, I love that.

And yeah, I'm with you.

I haven't listened to it already, so that's going to be next on my list.

So I appreciate it.

Do it.

You won't be disappointed.

So obviously the acronym FIRE is really important to us here and by that we mean feedback, inspiration, resilience and empowerment.

What is it that strikes you when you hear that, either individual words or sort of as a collective?

Well, I think it's quite interesting, isn't it, because I've mentioned almost some of these within what I've been talking about today.

You know, feedback is absolutely key.

How can you know you're doing a good job of anything?

You know, whether this is my trustee work or whether this is in, in business, you don't listen to people.

Communication for me is absolute, is the king.

And I think communication is what really drives relationships.

So I think that the feedback piece on there is, is absolutely, absolutely key to what we, we do and being in education.

One of the things we're always trying to do is Inspire people.

We want people to be inspired.

And when you give them opportunities to, to access things that maybe they wouldn't, you know, especially if you're looking into private, back deprived areas, you know, where education can give extracurricular experiences to children, they will not get a home.

And that hopefully inspires them.

And, and the only way you make changes, the only way you make changes through education.

Education, people need to be educated.

If they're not educated, you're never going to get changed because the same things will continue to happen.

And the empowerment piece in there as well, that, that's, that's what I've been talking about with the training.

We want to empower them, we want to empower teachers to be able to use the technology and get the most out of it, really be able to access the technology that's in their, in their classrooms.

And once you've empowered people then they have got that, that resilience that you've, you've got in there as well, haven't they?

They've got the resilience.

So where they've got students been maybe a bit difficult then, then they can feel comfortable that they know how to use their technology or deliver a lesson in the way that they want to deliver that lesson.

And so I, you know, I can, I can see exactly why fire is used and I think all of those are, you know, almost great values to have a conversation around, aren't they?

Absolutely.

Thank you so much, Ben.

It's been a fascinating conversation and like I said at the very beginning to have that insight from both camps as it were, from the educational ideas, what is the business in the technology side?

I really appreciate all the wisdom and all the things that you shared with us today.

Where can people go and find out more about, about what you do and, and get more information?

Yeah, I mean Optima, we're www.optima.co.uk they can come on there, they can see all of our technologies and we've got the ability to be able to access any of our technology as well.

We, you know, the best thing with technology is you need to play with it.

So we obviously give everyone the access to that.

So come on to our website if you want to know more then you can always reach out from the website and come in to me or my team.

Fantastic.

Thank you so much indeed for sharing all those insights today.

Keep up the great work and yeah, look forward to seeing where it goes in the future.

Pleasure.

It's been real fun.

Thanks.

Education is not the filling of a pail but the lighting of a fire.