This episode shares a conversation with Elia from the Fire These Times Podcast. Elia is a UK-based Lebanese-Palestinian writer, researcher and podcaster whose work focuses on hauntings, anti-authoritarianism, international solidarity, and alternative futurities. He runs the The Fire These Times podcast and the Hauntologies newsletter.

He interviews Nicole about the Solidarity Apothecary and the Overcoming Burnout series. Together they discuss grief, trauma, mutual aid, herbalism, and more.

Links & resources from this episode

1. The Fire These Times Podcast - https://thefirethesetimes.com/
2. Elia’s website - https://eliaayoub.com/
3. Hauntologies newsletter - https://www.hauntologies.net/
4. From the Periphery Media Collective - https://fromtheperiphery.com/
5. The Mutual Aid Podcast - https://fromtheperiphery.com/mutual-aid-podcast/
6. Overcoming Burnout Book - https://solidarityapothecary.org/overcomingburnout/
7. Overcoming Burnout Podcast - https://solidarityapothecary.org/product/overcoming-burnout-podcast/
8. Rooted in Struggle Programme - https://solidarityapothecary.org/rooted/

Find them all at solidarityapothecary.org/podcast/

Support the show

Music from Sole & DJ Pain – Battle of Humans | Plant illustrations by @amani_writes | In solidarity, please subscribe, rate & review this podcast wherever you listen.

Welcome to the Frontline Herbalism Podcast with your host, Nicole Rose from the

Solidarity Apothecary.

This is your place for all things plants and

liberation.

Let's get started.

Hello.

Welcome back to the Frontline Herbalism Podcast.

I hope you are well.

I'm sorry I didn't do the planning.

Your Herbal Year podcast, I'm gonna record it

on Monday.

But the herbal the 2026 herbal path planner is

like, still free to download and available,

so don't wait for that episode.

But yeah, this week's just gotten away with me

and my little one didn't go to nursery on Monday because he's still recovering from this

virus that like, literally the whole world has had.

I got it like mid December and I'm still like, got a bit of a sore throat and just like an

actual snot bag.

So I don't know if I would have been able to

handle recording a whole, like, giant episode.

But yeah, thank you for your patience.

But it was nice timing to get a text from Elia

saying that an interview we did was being published.

So I'm going to introduce him now.

But basically Elia runs a podcast called the

Fire these Times podcast as well as some other things.

I'm going to read his blurb out in a second.

But he basically messaged me and like reached out and asked if I'd be up for an interview

about burnout because he'd been listening to my over my free Overcoming Burnout podcast.

And I was like, yeah, of course.

But I was a little bit politically intimidated

because, like all the other episodes are like,

yeah, really full on interviews with like all this kind of political geographic history and

analysis on current affairs and like, I'm just like, oh, I like plants.

But yeah, it was, it was like such a good interview.

Like, it was just before Taya's inquest, so it felt like very kind of interesting to be asked

questions about that kind of like, body of work that I was like really creating in those

times when Taylor was alive,

like, where I was really like testing my limits around burnout and supporting people

like, in distress.

Like, you know, it.

I mean, I'm still doing that regularly now, but like, really like that kind of intense,

like, prisoner solidarity stuff was really like the focus of my, you know, day to day,

minute to minute life.

So,

yeah, it was just interesting to be interviewed.

And yeah, we had some good chats about like, the politics of grief and burnout and

herbalism.

And he like threw in some massive questions

like, you know, how does herbalism relate to capitalism and how does the body relate to

capitalism?

And I'm just like.

But yeah, I think, I think I did okay.

But yeah, please have a listen.

Please check out the Far in these Times

podcast as well and also check out like their crew have like a whole I'll put the link in

the show notes but there's like a like a few different podcasts including a mutual aid

podcast which is like really worth checking out.

So yeah, so I'm having this conversation with Elia and I'm going to read his blurb out.

So he says.

I'm a UK based Lebanese Palestinian writer, researcher and podcaster whose work

focuses on hauntings, anti authoritarianism,

international solidarity and alternative future futurities.

I run the Fire these Times podcast and the Hauntology's newsletter.

I nearly read his do with that.

What you want comment.

But anyway, please check out his show or shows plural.

And yeah, please check out the Overcoming Burnout private podcast that we talk about a

lot.

Oh my God. And I forgot to say I'm going to do a separate episode about this but I have

opened enrollment or kind of I've opened the application process for the Rooted in Struggle

program.

So this is a three month offering supporting kind of 9ish.

I might be a bit flexible because I've had loads of interest,

but it's basically an offering for people struggling with burnout who are involved in

different struggles for liberation.

You get one to one calls with me, like

specifically about your health, where I do your sort of comprehensive herbal

recommendations, get things in the post to you and then every two weeks we have a group call

where we're like talking about things collectively.

And then there's also like various kind of like pre recorded videos and suggested

readings and things that I've put together.

So yeah, I've decided to open it up internationally.

Like Hawthorne was only for people in the uk.

But yeah, I kind of wanted to.

Yeah, I just had so many requests for Hawthorne for people not from England.

So I just felt like.

Or England, Wales, Scotland.

So yeah, I just thought I would make it more international.

So I'll put a link in the show notes.

The deadline to apply is next Sunday.

I can't remember the date off the top of my head.

But yeah, I will.

Like I said I'll do a separate episode about

that.

So yeah, please check that out if you're

interested.

If you're struggling with burnout and you want some collective support and some herbal

support, I think it's going to be really special.

And yeah, thanks for listening.

I will talk to you next week.

Okay, bye.

Hey everyone, Elia here.

This is one of those episodes that I don't

necessarily know how to summarize, at least not do so well,

which is usually how you know that it's a pretty good episode.

I had Nicole on from the Solidarity Apothecary project and Nicole does so many things that I

won't even bother summarizing them at this stage because she's going to do so in a bit

anyway.

But you should absolutely check out the website if you're dealing with anything from

grief to repression to scog about something.

I'm not saying that like it's a panacea that

will fix everything, of course not.

But it's a very, very helpful and rich resource that I genuinely highly recommend you

check out.

Other than that, as always, thank you for

listening to the Fire these Times.

This podcast is part of the from the Periphery free media collective.

To support us, just head out to patreon.com from the periphery.

I will do a separate recording going into it, more in details, but I also wanted to say at

least at this stage that I've been launching classes online.

The first class is going to be on Lebanon, its history, its politics,

roughly starting with from the 70s onwards with a focus on the so called post war that is

the 90s onwards.

And I would even explain why I call it so

called Post war.

The first class is going to start in January.

There's already a lot of interest which has baffled me because I posted this on Blue sky

in Mastodon a couple of times.

I haven't even advertised it properly like

here on Instagram or whatever and I've already had to create a second class like a second

session that same week going to start mid January.

You can still enlist if you want.

All you need to do is to send me me an email on ayubefydeslimes.com you're not committing

to anything, you're just telling me that you're interested in this thing.

I will respond to you there by email.

There's also signal if you want.

It's Ayoob 02 in both cases.

Please introduce yourself and whatnot for security purposes of course,

and I will send you an email or a document explaining what the class is about.

And if you're interested there's every, you know, everything is explained so how to join

and whatnot.

It would be mid January, the first session as I said, going for five weeks and there's going

to be more after that.

But I'm trying to get as many people as

Possible who are interested joining us in the first session because this is also a very good

learning experience for me as well as with this podcast.

It's going to be pretty informal structured, but absolutely, like, open to participation.

People can share their reflections.

There's going to be like homework, text and

audio clips or other podcasts that are recommended but not required.

You can still attend without doing anything other than just show up on that Saturday once

a week for five weeks.

And if you can't, I will always record a audio

version of the class, so I can send that to you separately as well.

Okay. All that's left for me to do at this stage is once again to thank you all for

listening.

I hope you're doing relatively okay in this

crazy world.

And take care everyone.

Is it not?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's completely fine.

It's even.

It's even required.

Okay.

Thanks so much for inviting me to chat.

It's a real honor.

So, yeah, I'm Nicole.

I'm an anarchist and herbalist focused on supporting people experiencing state violence.

And that's through a project called the Solidarity Apothecary.

Um,

so, yeah, it's like, it's a whole thing, like all the different things.

But I basically, I offer kind of like one to one support for people,

for example, who've been leaving prison or like prisoner family members.

I also send, like, herbal care packages to people like, all over the world who are

experiencing like, state repression of different kinds.

I wrote a book called the Prisoner's Herbal, which goes to people in prison, like again,

all over the world.

And I'm also involved in a separate project called the Mobile Herbal Clinic Calais.

Before I had my little one, I was working a lot in France with our clinic.

It's like a team of hubless and we were supporting thousands of people,

like refugees and people on the move there.

So, yeah, but the project's still going.

I'm just doing sort of like behind the scenes, like medicine making and fundraising and

stuff.

And yeah, I kind of like fund all of that stuff through, like, online courses.

I teach a course about herbalism and PTSD and traumatic stress and yeah, sell the books

online, like the this Herbalism and State Violence book.

And that kind of.

Yeah, enables me to do what I do.

Like, it's kind of a thing I run on my own,

but I work with people like, all over the world and it's like a huge collective effort,

if that makes sense.

I guess just like, as context.

I started learning about herbalism when I was

in prison when I was 21.

So I did a three and a half sentence as part

of a kind of like, repressive operation against a campaign that was trying to close

down an animal testing company.

And yeah, like, that kind of experience was like, quite foundational in what I do now.

And I'd already started supporting people in prison when I was like 16.

My first boyfriend got sent down.

So I've been supporting folks in prison for like,

yeah, 20, 20 years now and just involved in like various different social struggles.

And we can talk about the burnout stuff, but the very short version is I was in Hospital in

2016 after, like this really intense, like, anti oppression speaking tour, and I got

really, really sick.

And then I started writing about it and it went really viral.

And then active distribution, this like, anarchist publisher were like, yo, Nicole, can

we put it in a book? And I was like, go on then.

And then that kind of fundraisers to like support all the prisoner support stuff.

So amazing.

Yeah,

there are like so many different ways we can go through this.

I absolutely want to talk about the.

I. I listen to it as a podcast.

I know that there's a book as well, which I've downlo the Overcoming Burnout, the one I just

mentioned in the end.

But before doing it, just in case people don't know what herbalism is, I don't want to

assume.

Can you explain it a bit?

Oh, sure, yeah, of course.

So,

yeah, like, plant medicines have been like, obviously the primary form of medicine for

people on the planet as well as, you know, animals,

you know, since time began.

And,

um. But obviously, like, again, it's a whole other massive podcast of how,

you know, the kind of birth of capitalism and sort of more like patriarchal medicine has

affected our relationship to plant medicines.

But yeah, as a kind of herbalist, I'm working with plants, so I'm learning about their

properties, like in depth, their different medicinal actions, how they affect the body,

and,

you know, also studying,

you know, the human body and different disease states and things and kind of trying to pair

up people and plants.

But it's, you know, it's still the primary form of healthcare on the planet.

And when I get people who, you know, I may be new to herbalism or a bit skeptical, I'm like,

oh, so you don't drink coffee?

And they're like, what? And I'm like, literally, for drinking a cup of

coffee, you're having plant medicine every day.

You're having that stimulation, that laxative effect.

You know, maybe it's giving you, like, energy and concentration.

And yeah, that's Basically what herbalism is, it's just like working with plants to kind of

change and interact with the body.

Yeah.

Is that enough of a. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And I mean, you also.

You didn't introduce it a bit, but, like, the.

So the.

If you put Frontline and herbalism together,

it may not, you know, I don't know.

For me, personally, I was like a. I love the.

As I already mentioned, I love the aesthetics of it.

I love the title.

This is just something I'm obsessed with in general.

But it's one of those things that, like, it makes you think of two different things at the

same time.

Right.

Like Frontline.

I don't know.

It's like action.

It's fast.

Maybe it's like, whatever.

Like you're confronting something.

Whereas herbalism feels more, like,

not quite passive, but like more.

I don't know, you know, more like something

that one does in the background or whatnot.

So. But putting them.

Those two together is,

for me, it was very interesting.

And it's one of the reasons I ended up

listening to the podcast as well.

Oh, nice. Cool. Yeah. Like, I think the name is kind of like.

Yeah. Like, I see a front line is like, anywhere where we're, like, doing kind of any

sort of like,

social struggle, social change kind of.

So like a local harm reduction project, working with people who are using drugs, who

are,

you know, being attacked by the police or something like that is a frontline thing as

much as going and in a refugee camp somewhere or doing other, like, survival, solidarity

work.

Um, so.

Yeah, and I think herbalism is an amazing tool

because, like, ultimately, these struggles,

like, they really, like, all processes.

Right.

Like, shape our bodies, shape our health, whether that's, like, trauma or class or, you

know, colonialism and capitalism.

And, like, we need kind of all the kind of solidarity we can get from the plant world to

help kind of survive these systems.

And herbalism is also, like, a beautiful way

of, like, putting that change in practice now of, like, what does a real,

like,

ecologically,

like, sustainable and,

like, beautiful kind of reciprocal relationship with the land look like?

And I feel like herbalism,

not all herbalism.

Like, we also get, like, capitalist herbalism

and, like, all this horrible **** going on.

Like. Yeah, like, I feel like plants are, like, amazing ******* teachers in how we kind

of.

Yeah.

Rebuild the world, if that makes sense.

God, that sounded cheesy.

You know what I mean?

No, no, no, absolutely.

I mean,

I'm a newbie when it comes to.

To herbs in general.

At least drinking them.

I mean, I do drink tea.

A bit.

And besides coffee, I would say, like, I'm pretty.

I still have a lot to learn.

I grew up just drinking a lot of coffee.

And now that my, my, my kind of.

My stomach doesn't tolerate coffee as well,

I've been kind of moving more towards the black tea and green tea and obviously tea in

general.

Like herbal tea more specifically these days as well.

And I'm. I admit I've been like fascinated by just how much you can experiment.

I've been experimenting, putting different things together and just seeing how that works

and stuff.

And it's almost like I took it for granted.

It's always there.

But I definitely undervalued, I think just how rich it can be and how obviously beneficial it

can be, but also how radical it can be.

Because you can absolutely take the

perspective that you're doing this for yourself, which isn't bad in itself.

Self care and whatnot.

That's not inherently a bad thing.

But you're doing this to yourself.

It's something that just keep to yourself.

But there's also.

You can absolutely.

And that's what you do very well.

I think the perspective that like you are learning about this, it's important that you

also learn this as an individual, but you're doing so as part of this kind of more.

More collective project.

This, you know, this, this in this intention

for, you know, collective liberation.

And not just like human liberation, but like

the more than human world as well.

Yeah, for sure.

And like, I love that the, the best way to

learn herbalism, it's like it is just all about the body.

And I think like really affects our relationship with our bodies, which is like a

major contribution to burnout.

But like, I feel like herbalism is just this like awesome teacher of like, you start to

notice things again.

Like you mentioned your stomach, for example.

Sometimes spend years not even aware of your own stomach, you know, and then you can start

having teas and be like, oh, this feels like this.

And this is making me go to the toilet more or less.

Or you know, and I just.

Yeah, that's.

I mean as like plants as teachers, like they just teach us so much.

Yeah. I was stuck in the loop for a while of being.

Because it's a habit.

At the end of the day, I barely thought about

it.

Like when I would have coffee in the morning,

I would not feel well for quite some time.

And it took me and my partner, my partner repeating this a bunch of times.

And me then at some point actually realizing it to hook at it that like maybe don't do

that.

Maybe do something else in the morning.

And it's just one of those things.

I'm a habits person, so it took me quite some

time, even like, consciously drinking, I mean, unconsciously drinking the coffee and then

realizing after a couple of sids that that's not what I actually intended to do this

morning.

Anyway, like,

long story short, is that it?

You do.

Okay, so this is a good segue because I wanted

to ask a bit later on about the class component of burnout, but you did mention,

like, the relationship in capitalism in our bodies, and I wonder if you would be okay

with, like, expanding on that a bit.

Oh, yeah, small question.

Yeah.

In five minutes or less.

No, I'm joking.

Is there anything, like, more specific with that?

Like, just, I guess, specifically the, you know, herbalism as a way of connecting

with our bodies and capitalism as a general rule, contributes to the disconnect with our

bodies, if that makes sense.

Okay, yeah, yeah, nice.

Like, fundamentally,

to exist in a world where there is so much *******, like, harm and oppression and

violence against people and animals and landscapes, like, we need to be, like,

separate from that kind of, like, sensory input of what the **** is happening, right?

Like, anyone will know.

Like, if you scroll the phone through ******* Instagram for more than, like, three

minutes, then you're going to like, start dissociating because there's like, no way on

earth you can feel that amount of suffering that is happening.

And I think there is this, like, real intentionality with how our systems are

designed.

And, you know, I'm obviously just talking as

someone that grew up in England, but, like, and Wales,

you know, like,

yeah, like,

capitalism just, like, constantly demands this, like, repression of needs, right?

Of like, you have to get up really early and, like, go to school.

You have to, like, go to work and like, sit your ******* body at a desk when really you

want to be, like, moving around and,

you know, connecting with the landscape and like, connecting with other humans.

And so, yeah, there is just this, like, constant self repression of the body.

And I actually wrote a piece called Herbalism as like, a rebellion against self neglect.

And part of it is that, like,

it was the herbs that kind of like, taught me to start feeling my body because I had been so

separate from it because of,

you know, like, Bali childhood stuff and, you know, like, sexual abuse as a child and like,

all this,

like, horrible that meant that it's not safe to be in the body and therefore you are able

to just use it as a machine or as a workaholic to just, like,

I Used to write, like, organize into oblivion.

Just, like, keep organizing, keep going.

Like, ignore your needs.

Ignore your need for rest.

Ignore your need for sleep.

And I feel like herbs were like, you know, And I got into herbalism from, I guess, more of a,

like, political thing of like,

you know, like kind of more like green anarchist **** and stuff like this,

recognizing, you know, like, some of the challenges with, like, capitalist

pharmaceutical industry and blah, blah, blah.

And then I feel like plants actually,

because you have to have this, like, sensory relationship to them, began teaching me about

my body of, like,

oh, this plant can help you, like, sleep well.

Or, wow, that's like, the deepest, nicest

sleep I've ever had in my life.

Or,

wow, I've, like, slept through the entire night without a nightmare because, you know,

I, like, rubbed a bunch of lavender oil on my neck before I went to bed.

Or like, I just feel like, like, plant medicines just, like, constantly teach you

different things about your body.

And then you start to notice, oh, I'm getting sick.

Like, maybe I'll make a ginger decoction or start having more garlic in my food or

whatever.

And like,

yeah, I feel like capitalism is, like, pushing us one way to constantly reject our bodily

needs and pretend that they don't exist.

And herbalism is pushing us the other way of like, hey, feel your body,

Observe the world, have a relationship with the land,

and hopefully that can help us build that drive in us to be like, I want to ******* stop

these ecocidal destructive systems.

Yeah,

the question.

But no, it does, it does.

Thanks.

I mean,

I.

I'm still.

So. I did absolutely go through burnout for

quite some time,

and I kind of.

I think I've been dealing with that part of my

life a bit.

Like, I think how one would deal with grief in

the sense that it's not.

I'm not, like, over it, you know, I wouldn't describe myself today as still burnt out, but

it's just one of those things that it's like the recovery process is not linear.

So there's absolutely moments where I feel more intensely like I did at the time, but

it's just.

It's not as prolonged as it used to be.

And one of the components of that, which is one of the things I'm kind of working on now

to I don't get better,

is the disconnect with the body.

Like,

I quite genuinely would say that for a number.

Like, for a number of years at the very least,

I almost forgot that I'm physical.

Like, I have a body.

I knew that I need to shower and go to the loo and I don't know, stuff like that.

But self care was pretty minimal because of depression and burnout.

And it's only through that process, that recovery.

I went through therapy, lots of friends, my partner, a bunch of people also helping me and

stuff.

Actually learning how to cook helped a lot,

stuff like that that I started realizing how much of the issues.

It's not like it started in the body, but it's almost like it lodged itself there, if that

makes sense.

It kind of became a way where, like,

I don't know, I atrophied.

Not necessarily like in a physical sense, I

was still like walking a lot and stuff, but just like, I don't know, emotionally, but I

would feel it in the body, if that makes sense.

One thing that I'm almost done with the Overcoming Burnout podcast, which is, as you

said, also a book.

And initially blog posts and stuff.

Everything that we're talking about, I'll put them in the show.

Notes and stuff.

The Overcoming Burnout series.

I've been.

I listened to, I don't know, 10 of them in one go.

And then I immediately emailed you.

That's how much I connected with it.

I recognize a lot of what you've been talking about.

My own personal background is that I used to be involved in organizing and stuff.

And a lot of the burnout that I ended up feeling, although I would describe it

primarily as coming from work and capitalism and just living in all of that, rather than

the protest movements, which was actually energizing,

if anything.

But.

There was some trauma, there was some repercussions, there was all of that.

And I kind of felt that later on, not in the moment, I have very much this almost mode of,

Of, I don't know, it's adrenaline, it's whatever it might be.

Well, I'm just hyper focused in the moment for however long that requires me to be.

And then once that is done, or I can't anymore and whatnot, there's this very prolonged,

almost slow and then not so slow crash or burnout or whatever.

Now I'm better at coping with it in some sense, but it's never fully gone.

And a big part of why it's not fully gone is that we still live in the worlds that have

caused these harms in the first place.

And in many ways they have gotten worse since.

Anyway,

the episodes themselves, or like, let's say, the book and the podcast, there is a very,

very convenient paragraph that I'm happy to read.

Unless you're willing to do so kind of describing what it's about.

Would you mind doing it, or do you want me to do it?

I don't mind.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

I can read it.

I'm very dyslexic, so reading out loud is

like.

But I wrote it, so I'll.

You can take your time.

No worries.

Yeah. So this is like the blurb on the back of the book.

Organizing with others for human, animal, and earth liberation can be one of the most

empowering experiences alive.

Yeah.

Frontline resistance comes with risks to our physical and emotional health that can lead

many people to burn out and abandon social movements altogether.

This book is about overcoming burnout, linking the author's journey of recovery with wider

systemic forces such as classism, sexism, and power dynamics in groups,

poverty, chronic illness, and ableism, as well as grief and trauma from prison and state

repression.

It is a call for models of mutual aid and collective care,

simultaneously deeply personal and acutely political.

For anyone involved in grassroots organizing, it is a must read.

Okay.

We, of course, already talked about herbalism, Frontline Herbalism, and herbalism

as mutual aid.

Effectively.

Talk to us a bit, if you don't mind, about the book itself, the blogs, and then the podcast,

of course, the Overcoming Burnout series itself.

You did mention how it started off as this thing.

It just felt like you needed to get out there.

You just needed to write about it.

But it went viral.

What was the feedback? Like, what would people.

What were they connecting with?

Yeah, sure.

So,

yeah, like I mentioned, like, I ended up in hospital with really bad rib pain, which

lasted for, like, several years.

And, you know, I'm.

It kind of propelled me to, like,

do clinical training and stuff like that.

So I am, like, grateful for those experiences.

But, yeah, like, every blog was just, like, the outcome of something that was going on in

my life in that moment.

Like, some theme that was coming up.

And there was 23 of them in the end, and they just kind of.

Yeah, I mean, like, I'm a real, like,

like,

control freak planner type.

But, like, it was all kind of, like,

unplanned, like, spontaneous kind of like, almost like rants, to be honest.

I'd often just, like, wake up in the middle of night with, like.

And just, like, write and kind of get all this stuff out.

And then.

Yeah, kind of.

Yeah, it just went viral.

And,

like,

people from everywhere, like, were emailing me and just being like, oh, my God, like, I've

seen this in my groups or, you know, like, the second.

The second blog in the series is called, like, when did I get so mean and I just like listed

out just like mean thoughts I'd have about other people.

And it was very raw and very honest and, and you know, mean thoughts I'd have about myself.

But like just kind of like, why aren't people taking things seriously?

Like everyone treats like struggle as a game, like all of this kind of stuff.

And yeah, I think people just kind of, yeah, they connected with it because they could just

see it where they were.

And I was always amazed by like how international that was because I was really

writing from just, you know, like someone who'd been involved in like social movements

and stuff in mostly in the uk.

So it always kind of amazed me when, yeah, someone like literally from ******* Palestine

would like email me being like, wow, like ba, ba, ba, ba ba.

And I'm like, wow.

So yeah, I just want to acknowledge that like I, you know, I've changed a lot.

Like I do a little introduction to the podcast series which is like a free kind of private

podcast where I'm recording the chapters.

But you know, I have like grown and changed a lot since, you know, when I started writing.

Yeah.

But also make them like, yeah, you do.

There is that in the introduction that you

make, as you said.

But it is, I like the fact that it is.

Also you were reading thoughts that were like in the past that are still obviously very,

very relevant to today.

But it's like that component of it being raw.

You saw like I have in front of me, episode seven, Composing Grief.

We have like the journal question, like, what losses have you experienced as an organizer?

How do you feel about them? Which of your losses are the most painful or

incomplete?

How do you talk about or work with grief in your collective?

If you've experienced repression, how has it, or does it and, or does it feel?

How do you honor fallen comrade?

And those are like you would read this blog post, these reflections,

then you ask these questions, kind of these open ended questions, inviting the listener to

also reflect on them, which I've certainly been doing and I'm still doing.

That must have been, I would presume that must have been part of why it went viral, why there

were so many people who were kind of, you know, relating to it, as you said, even

someone from Palestine or what have you.

Because it's both like at times it's specific, of course.

I mean,

you're a specific person who went through specific experiences.

But it is also to the extent that some of this or a lot of this can be more,

how do I say this?

More generalized, more people have experienced certainly elements of this and versions of

this.

It's presented in a way that I think is very approachable,

which is not what you always find.

We have as part of the.

From the Periphery media collective, which is

the media collective that this podcast is part of.

We have this other podcast called the Mutual Aid Podcast.

I'm absolutely going to put you two in touch, by the way.

And they.

They also have these long.

They're actually long episodes where they have

conversations with people about, of course, the main topic being mutual aid.

But the strength of that podcast, and I'm not just saying that because we're part of the

same collective,

is that it's informal while also being structured or semi structured.

So like, let's say focused.

So it's not rambly, you know,

neither does your podcast, to be clear.

And it's allowing the listener,

as I said, in my case, it was in a podcast version, but the reader, I think, would be the

same thing.

It's inviting them to both be present and

sorry, listen to, like, the very specific things being talked about, the very specific

topic, the very specific questions and the guests and the host are trying to answer,

for example.

But also it's broad enough that if you don't know the specifics of what that, let's say,

specific episode is about,

you can still relate to those broader questions.

And I think this.

This kind of doing it both at once is a

difficult balance, but I think you've done it quite well.

Thank you.

I think there are just, like, common themes

of, like, being a human.

And I think,

like,

yeah, because, you know, I,

like,

didn't have, like, formal education.

Like, I left home when I was 16.

Like, I didn't go to university or anything.

Like, I think it did make a lot of the writing, like, more accessible.

And I think,

yeah, like,

yeah, things like, you know, like grief and division of labor groups and trauma, like,

they are very, like, human things.

And I think in kind of social movements, like,

people are very, like,

cerebral, like, often very intellectual.

And it's like, quite.

Even if it's something related to someone's lived experience, it's very like, da, da, da,

da, da, like this, like, theory, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I think one of, like, the things maybe that I bring to the world is, like, I'm very,

like, grounded, practical person.

Like, hence the herbalism.

And I think people really crave that because,

you know, like, we talked about already, like, we're disconnected from the body and people

are just, like,

talking about feelings.

Right?

Like, when do you learn how to.

Like talk about feelings.

And like my mum,

bless her, like, you know, I was brought up by a single mom on benefits with really severe

like depression and suicidality and like I was literally like her counselor from like a five

year old.

So like I grew up and you know, she eventually became like a mental health nurse.

But I really grew up in culture where like we would talk about feelings and I would listen

to her feelings.

And I think there's an element of my work which is like I'm kind of, yeah, trying to

think like what could have supported her, you know, to be a different mum.

And I think, you know, there was all sorts of like estrogen dominance and vitamin

deficiencies and lack of social support and you know, ******* capitalism that was like

affecting our lives and patriarchy.

But like that's why now in my clinic I see single moms and I see people whose children

are in prison and I see you know, people with really intense like you know, severe

depression who start working with a herb or different supplements or nutritional changes

and actually feel like radically different.

And I feel yeah, like that.

Yeah, the kind of Overcoming Burnout book is a

way of me like in a room of people where that everyone is just talking about something

abstract.

I'm just like yo, like let's think about our bodies like how is everyone feeling and which

is you know, a super f cking like thing to do.

But yeah, I think especially in sort of like

more like anarchisty type spaces, I think it is like a little bit rare.

It's changing.

But yeah, I think that's why a lot of people related to it because it was like saying the

unsaid, if that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If you don't mind talk to us a bit about.

You don't have to give specific examples of course for like privacy reasons.

But in terms of the people that you just mentioned, like what are single moms, people

who have kids in prison and stuff like that.

And when they interact with like herbalism as a practice,

have they kind of told you how has, you know, how that has been changing their lives?

You know, how has that affected them?

Oh for sure.

Like,

yeah, like we do like follow ups and things and you know, and also like even just people

that are doing my online PTSD course will like regularly email me and I think like,

I think it's so hard because the world is so that it is like completely understandable to

be depressed and to have health issues because of like all these like larger factors like

industrial agriculture and poverty and stuff like this but there is also,

it's kind of like that constant anarchist tension between the collective and the

individual.

But there is also lots of things people can do

for themselves and each other.

And yeah, I think for some people,

when you grow up on benefits or whatever, maybe you've not seen a ******* vegetable for

a really long time.

And just having like someone like even just

taking a sip of elderberry syrup, like sometimes that like syrup has so many

antioxidants and like iron and like diverse nutrients in it that that person's body,

it's like they almost go into shock because they're just like me.

Like, I've never had like nutrition like this.

And you know, like sometimes,

you know, you just.

But up against like, the limits of herbalism,

you know, like, I can send someone like a box of medicines that will be really supportive

for them that are like, suited to their body and their constitution and their health needs.

And that's not always gonna compete with the fact that their child is in solitary

confinement, like being tortured or,

you know, their ex is like abusive and stalking them.

And like, they're under like, constant chronic stress.

So it's like, you know, I think there's always this balance between being able to make a real

difference to someone's life and, you know, like recovering from burnout or chronic

illness or depression,

like, is really life changing.

And sometimes it is little like 3%, 5% changes

that can make a difference between someone killing themselves that day, for example.

But yeah, there's always this balance with like,

lots of people just need more like social support, you know, just need more friends,

like, need people to help take care of them.

Like they need a ******* break.

Like, especially people who've experienced, you know, like, really intense poverty and

homelessness and everything else.

Like, they actually just need like some ******* stability,

insecurity.

And that will, you know, enable their body to

like, start, you know, repairing itself.

So. But yeah, I do think herbalism can be really transformational.

And like, I always talk about it's not like the medicines.

Like, it is the like, act of herbalism.

It is like, so healing for people to just

build a relationship with like non humans.

And people who've been through a lot of trauma,

like, don't always feel safe with other humans.

Whereas, like going and like foraging or gardening or whatever, like that can be really

fantastic for someone's nervous system because they can just feel that sense of like, safety

and social connection without needing to like, navigate,

you know, a human that might feel threatening.

For example.

Part of the disconnect has Been for me, I do this meditation.

I also put this in the show notes.

It's from a Buddhist center.

I think they're in France.

But it's called something tea or coffee meditation or something along those lines.

I don't even know what it is,

but the point of it is short, like seven, eight minutes.

And it's kind of inviting the.

Well, me in this case, to think of where did

the herb come from or where did the coffee come from, what could have been the journey,

all of that stuff.

And it can sound pretty simple or small, I don't know, at least for those who haven't

experienced it in the same way.

But for me, the reason why it's been

important, and I'm trying to be diligent enough to do it on a daily or quasi daily

basis,

is because ultimately,

one of the reasons why it was easy for me to have coffee instead of tea is I didn't think

too much about what was in the coffee because it was like, oh, this is just a coffee bean.

It comes from this place.

It was very simplistic, in a sense, a very, very shallow relationship.

Whereas with C, it was more intimidating to me.

Like, I wanted to know.

And I also have this need to just know things

I wanted to know, like where if there's like seven different herbs, this breaks my brain.

Like seven different places where this can come and stuff like that.

And this allowed me to slow down a bit and to just think of.

Obviously, I'm not necessarily finding the answer in the sense that I'm literally

googling where everything is from.

I do that sometimes, but the point is to just

stop and pause and recognize that, like, this isn't just its existence as this final

product, as this commodity is not how.

It's just the final part of that journey.

It's not like all of it.

And in fact, the more I think of that path or that journey or that Whatever cheesy word I'm

using here,

the more it gets complicated.

Because you cannot talk about tea without

talking about labor.

You cannot talk about tea without talking

about.

And by tea, I mean, like, you know, herbal tea

as well,

about labor, about gender, about class,

about geography, you know, where.

Where it comes from and everything.

Like, it's.

It's absolutely part of this.

This global system.

And you can.

And I'm sure some very smart people have told a version of a story of the world or the

history of the world through tea or through coffee or through.

Through what have you.

Where I was going with.

I don't know what I was going with this just

to say, I guess that like,

it's.

It's been.

It's been something that I'm still reflecting on.

And I. I would absolutely love to have you on again one day when I'm like more into

herbalism in a way that I can actually talk about it without being too vague.

But for our purposes as like, we're like slowly wrapping up,

there's a couple of episodes.

Let me open them a sec.

We don't have to summarize them or anything.

I like the title.

And I think we can do something with that.

If you remember the specifics, we can do that.

Otherwise, we'll just talk about what we think

it means, like composting grief.

This is the second time in a not very long time I learned about composting not just as

this physical thing that we do to compost our foods and whatever, but as a practice shout

out to R.

They know who they are composting, even as temporality, is how I've been learning from

them.

As something that is not just a thing, as I said, like part of turning your food into

compost and so on,

but as a heating thing.

I mean, again, the composting grief.

What can you tell us about that, if you don't mind?

I mean,

before I was like, wow, the same time that I was heavily into herbalism, I was like really

obsessed with like soil science.

Like to the point where I bought microscope

and was like studying soil organisms.

And I'd got them tattooed like all up my leg because I just obsessed with like soil

microbiology.

But like, yeah, like composting, like you said, isn't just about like a compost pile.

It is just this like inherent cyclical process in nature where,

you know,

we are getting nourishment from like death and dying, right?

Like from a leaf falling from the tree that's getting eaten by all sorts of things and then

that's becoming,

you know, nutrients in the soil that is then giving life again.

And yeah, like when I like was going through this like, overcoming burnout book series

stuff, like two of my best friends had died.

And yeah, one of them, Jilly, like, was kind of like a mum figure to me, like in the animal

liberation movement.

I met her when I was like 11 years old.

And a lot of the kind of like this organizing into oblivion thing that I talked about was

because I was like, incapable of like feeling that grief because it was just like so

overwhelming and life changing and painful.

And so there was this like, avoidance of those feelings through intense like Workaholism.

And. Yeah, composting grief was like, kind of,

you know, connecting to her, like, personal death, but also, like, what does grief look

like in our movements? Which for me at the time was.

I'd been heavily involved in this campaign and it had got, like, completely destroyed by the

state.

You know, like 12 of us in prison.

Like, we were all.

I mean, I'm not going to go into all the repression things, but, you know, I was, like,

under surveillance for two years and, like,

yeah, had loads of conditions on me and, like, separated from people I love.

And, like.

Yeah, there was, like, a lot there and, like, huge losses and changes to the movement in

terms of its, like, militancy and radicalness, becoming more of a kind of liberal, pacifist,

consumerist thing.

And. Yeah, so it's just basically, like, processing all those feelings.

And then ironically, once I, like, finished the series, I then had,

like, eight bereavements.

No, six bereavements in a row over six months,

like, including my ex partner who was killed.

So it was like.

Yeah. And then it's weird recording this now because next week it's the inquest of one of

my best friends, Taylor, who died in prison.

So I almost canceled because I was just like.

I am, like, so ******* right now.

I just.

But, you know, I knew that.

I knew that this would be, like, a good interview.

I think, like, the work you do is amazing.

I had some, like, imposter syndrome because I

was like, oh, my God, everyone on the show is, like, super ******* clever.

But. But, yeah.

But anyway, back to grief.

Like, it's just.

Yeah.

I think this, like, composting metaphor is really beautiful because it's like,

how do we take that, like, pain and process it and, you know, like.

And so many ******* moments in, like,

history of different social struggles have really been born from,

you know, like, collective grief.

From collective grief.

Like someone getting killed.

You know, like George Floyd uprisings as an

example with,

you know.

So,

yeah, it's a. You know, it's a big ******* topic that loads of people have written about,

but that was like.

Yeah, something I.

I kind of wrote about, too.

Yeah, thanks for that.

I'm.

This might be a bit risky on my part in the sense that it's.

It's not an easy topic to.

To close an episode on, but I'll try and make

it as brief as I can in this context,

but I've been.

Because I've been also thinking about composting and composting grief and why that

kind of resonates with me.

Among other things is that I'm in a process right now where I can only.

I can kind of describe it as pre grieving in the sense that my dog is old and he's getting

sick and we've been doing some tests and the prognosis isn't amazing,

let's put it that way.

We don't know how long he has left with us.

And it's just one of those things because he's a dog, he can't tell us, at least not as

clearly what's going on.

So there are times where entire like the past week has been a bit like that.

Like some, some morning where like he seems completely fine and then the afternoon where

he seems like I need to go to the emergencies immediately.

And it's just one of those things that like,

I know because I've had dogs in the past as well and I've lived with dogs all my life.

I can see the signs.

I can see that, like the,

the time is coming, so to speak.

I don't know, of course, when and stuff, but like, it's getting there.

And so I've been thinking a lot of,

well, him and a being here presently with him and he's next to me now as we talk and just,

you know, making sure he's happy and comfortable as much as possible, all of that

stuff.

But also like just thinking of the routines

that I'm used to.

As I said, I'm a habits person and doing all

of those things for the most part with him because he's 14 years old.

I've had him for 13 of those 14.

And the difficulty of that, of course, is that it is going to be what it's going to be.

And I know the day when the day comes, I'm going to feel all of the obvious, I mean, I

guess clear emotions and it's going to take me a long time to heal,

if that's even the correct term, and so on.

But even now, because we know,

because there are clear signs that things aren't going okay other than he is almost 14

years old.

I've been thinking about composting, weirdly enough, and composting grief.

And this process that is not linear, that is,

that has multiple layers, but those layers are also interacting with one another.

And it's not clear cut as to how,

like, you know, I don't know if, if he passes away on a Monday, like, what the Tuesday is

going to look like compared to, I don't know, the Monday after, you know, See what I mean?

Like, it's it's been.

What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that it's also been a helpful, personally,

framework because previously, whether it's friends, relatives, or indeed dogs that have

passed away in my life,

the way I would grieve, I would describe it as shock.

And then a long, prolonged process of trying to have some normalcy in my life, whatever

that meant at the time.

And now it's less about that.

I mean, there's gonna be that component of it

anyway.

But it's also.

It's becoming more and more about just thinking through his life so far,

not treating him as though he's not with us, because he is,

but also not pretending like he's one years old.

Right.

Because he's not.

And just having those different.

If that makes sense, those different temporalities at the same time,

almost like, in conversation with one another.

Like, I still remember him when he was 2. I

remember him when he was like, 5.

And of course now he's almost 14, as I said.

And now, like, that's.

That's the same being.

Right.

But it's also not because that's like multiple

lives in it.

I'm mixing my metaphors, but, like, it's.

It's a use.

It's a very, very useful framework.

I'll definitely do more with that when I have a bit of.

More, like, mental space to think about composting the temporality behind it as a

practice.

Something to really think through, both

individually and collectively.

But, yeah, I guess this was like, my long way of saying that I appreciate the framing and

I'm grateful for it.

I'm so sorry to hear that.

What's his name?

Flip. His name is Flip.

And he just looked at me because, of course, I

was loud.

Yeah. I mean,

yeah, I think that is what's really difficult about grief is, like, the.

Yeah. Just the lack of timeline and you think that you've kind of, like, processed and then

you're just, like, smashed with something else again.

Yes.

Yeah. So I'm really.

Yeah. I'm really sorry to hear.

I mean, thank you.

It is.

It is.

I say these things always.

It's my.

It's my quote, unquote, intellectually, of course, and things.

Then I say, like,

it is what it is, which means nothing,

but it is what it is,

and we'll see.

I mean, it's gonna take some time.

And he's okay.

He's not in pain or anything.

Thankfully, there are meds and stuff.

So grateful for that,

I guess,

as I said, as a way of wrapping up Would you mind talking about some?

You did mention them at the beginning.

So if you don't have to repeat everything.

But the projects that you're doing, what are certain things that people can go?

Everything that you mentioned, as I said, I'll put those as links in the show notes.

Yeah. How can people support your work? Support the Solidarity Apothecary, the ebooks,

the podcast, everything you do? Because the website.

And people can just literally go on the website because it's really rich,

has a lot.

But what can you tell us about it? Or tell us more, I guess about it?

Sure. So yeah, the website is the best place to go.

Solidarityapothecary.org and the podcast we've been talking about is like, like available for

free on there.

So you can just like kind of go through the

store and access it and it will send you a link automatically.

So that's the Overcoming Burnout podcast.

And then yeah, it's available as an ebook just

for like three pounds.

And then all my other books are also there.

I don't post physical books out anymore since having a baby, so But I've got a bunch of

links of where you can buy like physical copies.

And then my Frontline Herbalism podcast is available everywhere.

And yeah, I'm also active mostly on Instagram.

I know we all hate social media, but it's there and I do share a lot of pretty pictures

of plants as well as lots of call outs for different things.

And yeah, please feel free.

Like I'm not offering, I'm not doing like many

one to one clinics at the moment because I'm a single mum to a toddler so it's like very

challenging.

But yeah,

I have, I have, I am doing these kind of group programs.

Like I had one the last three months called Hawthorne which was like for 10 people,

actually nine of us in the end,

different people experiencing repression.

And we had like a group, we had like group

calls every two weeks.

Everyone got like one to one herbal support

and you know, just talking about the impacts of repression on people's lives and their

bodies and it's been really beautiful and I love the kind of transition from just that

kind of like solo work to like a group thing,

like a collective healing thing.

So that's been really nice and I hope to do

more of those next year.

And yeah, you can donate on my website.

And the Herbalism PTSD and Traumatic stress course comes out twice a year and it's like

completely online so you can do it at your own pace.

And every, every ******* thing I do is like no one turned away for lack of funds.

So like 75% of people who join that course join for like, you know, often quite a small

donation.

And I'm very grateful for people who can, you

know, financially contribute because that enables all of this stuff.

But if you're interested in learning about herbalism, it's like a fantastic introduction

to, you know, herbal energetics and like,

like harvesting and like ecology and stuff, as well as like how trauma shapes the body and

understanding the nervous system and like kind of the geeky deep dive into nervous system

physiolog.

And then we talk in depth about different kinds of plants and their like affinity with

the nervous system.

So yeah, please check that out.

And if anyone is, yeah, experiencing repression or supporting a loved one in prison

or involved in a grassroots group who are experiencing burnout and challenges with that,

you can request a herbal care package for free.

It contains really lovely blends like support for the nervous system, immune to lavender

oil, which is made with, with olive oil from the West Bank.

So yeah, please, please, please, like request stuff like I fundraise and purposely make this

medicine so that people can like benefit from it, if that makes sense.

And yeah, if anyone is supporting someone in prison and they want a free copy of the

prisoner's herbal or the medicinal herb coloring book, like I've got online forms, you

just fill it in and like one of the like amazing happy helpers in the US or the UK or

mainland Europe somewhere will get a book in the post to them for free.

So yeah, that's my kind of like ecology of offerings and everything is quite pretty with

roses and stuff.

There's always like a joke, the joke in Bristol that like one day there'll be like a

bunch of oppression against me and it would just because they've connected everything with

a rose on it for every amicus event,

put it all together of like this looks like Nicole's graphic design.

So yeah,

I did say this, I think a couple of times already, but it is aesthetically also very

pleasing to look at.

And again,

I think some people won't find that necessarily as important.

But I do find this really important for the same reason that I think being touchy feely is

really important.

It should also be welcoming.

It should also be something that is not just

text and it's a good thing and I do appreciate, I can see that a lot of effort it

has gone into it and still is going to it.

So absolutely, like listeners, check out everything we just said and as I said,

everything is going to be in the show notes.

And yeah, I guess all that's left to me is to thank you, Nicole, for doing this.

This was amazing.

Oh, pleasure.

Thank you so much for inviting me.

Yes.

Yeah.

It's a real honor to be on your podcast.

And yeah,

take.

Thanks so much for listening to the Frontline Herbalism podcast.

You can find the transcript, the links, all the resources from the

show@solidarityapothecary.org podcast.