This episode shares an interview from the Radio Wombat Radio Show and Podcast in Italy. Addu asks Nicole all about the Solidarity Apothecary - from its origins to current offerings. We talk about everything from how herbalism can support people experiencing state violence, to how the body expresses distress, as well as practical logistics like how medicines are grown and made for the project.

Links & resources from this episode

• Original interview on Radio Wombat - https://radiowombat.net/nervature-107-interview-with-nicole-rose/
• Herbalism, PTSD and Traumatic Stress Course – https://solidarityapothecary.org/herbalismandptsdcourse/

Find them all at solidarityapothecary.org/podcast/

Support the show

Music from Sole & DJ Pain – Battle of Humans | Plant illustrations by @amani_writes | In solidarity, please subscribe, rate & review this podcast wherever you listen.

Welcome to the Frontline Herbalism Podcast with your host, Nicole Rose from the

Solidarity Apothecary.

This is your place for all things plants and

liberation.

Let's get started.

Hello.

Welcome back to the Frontline Herbalism Podcast.

I have a new cable for my microphone.

Thank God I didn't need to buy a new mic.

So hopefully the sound quality will be back to normal.

Today I'm just sharing a interview I did last week with a really awesome independent kind of

radio show and podcast.

Podcast called Radio Wombat who are in Italy.

And yeah, we.

We kept like.

Well, I kept rescheduling for ages, but it was so good to finally make it happen

and speak with Adu and yeah, get kind of.

Yeah, just the opportunity to talk about the Solidarity Apothecary, like as a whole.

So we talked about,

you know, what I was doing before the apothecary, like how it started,

how it's kind of built over time, like the different.

The offerings.

They were quite curious about like my clinical training and.

Yeah, what that looks like.

Like, what does one to one herbal support look

like?

How do we produce the medicines?

Like, yeah, all the other things.

So. Yeah, I hope you enjoy listening to it.

They're gonna do a translation of it into

Italian soon and this is their kind of like edited version.

So there's some like music and stuff like that.

And yeah, just a cheeky reminder that the herbalism, PTSD and traumatic stress course is

open for exact week and then it will not be open again until the autumn.

So I'm gonna try and get on to do another podcast this week.

But yeah, if you haven't checked it out, please check out the course.

It's like my main body of work.

It's all about herbal support for people

experiencing trauma and chronic stress.

We look at the politics of trauma and what's involved.

We look at all the basics of herbal medicine like energetics and herbal safety and you

know, what to harvest, when to harves.

Yeah.

And then go into a lot of detail about nervine.

So plants with an affinity for the nervous system.

And yeah, no one is turned away for lack of funds.

So anyone is able to join it with a code on the website.

And yeah, people that do that do pay all of those funds go to.

Yeah. To sustaining the sold out apothecary.

So, you know, sustaining my livelihood and you

know, I'm a single mom with a baby and all of that stuff.

But really like the most of the

money goes on, you know, everything I'm doing.

So herbal care packages to People experiencing state violence, thousands of books to

prisoners,

you know, the Black Flag Herbal Clinic, like offering one to one support for free to

comrades around the world.

This podcast, like all the different stuff I do, like enabling me to, you know, keep

organizing with the Mobile Herbal Clinic Calais and medicine making and stuff like

that.

So yeah, so please check it out, join if you're interested.

And yeah, thanks for listening.

I hope you enjoy this interview.

Take care.

Hello.

Hello Nicole.

And I'm so happy to have you here.

It's so nice to finally interview you.

We've already talked about some of your projects.

In particular the Prisoner's Herbal here in Nervature, but also in some other

broadcasting, the radio in Wombat Radio and today.

So we have you here.

So I'm so glad of this.

And so I'd like to,

yeah, to take some time to just ask you about you about something, just something about your

life, but mainly about your projects, your work and your beliefs.

So I would just start as like if you want to introduce yourself to say whatever you want,

maybe how you got in touch with plants.

What are your studies about? Herbalism.

And yeah, I give you the microphone.

Okay, amazing.

Thank you so much for contacting me and for

sharing the work already.

So yeah, I'm Nicole.

I live in the southwest of England and I am an anarchist organizer.

Like from very, very young, from like 10 years old, I discovered kind of anarchism.

And then I was active in like many struggles,

most particularly like animal liberation.

And then I went to prison.

I got three and a half year sentence when I was 21, which is a long time ago now, I'm like

nearly 40.

But yeah, it was in prison that I really built this relationship with plants and started

connecting with plants in the prison gardens and studying them.

I got some funding to do like a course in herbalism.

And then yeah, when I got out I just yeah, became more and more passionate and doing a

lot of medicine, making and growing and getting involved in different like land

projects.

And then yeah, a long time went by.

I was mostly active in like prisoner support

stuff and like anti prison struggles.

And I got very, very, very ******* burnt out.

Which I know lots of people experience.

And then this experience made me really interested in herbalism because I was very,

very ill.

And so I started learning more about herbalism

in terms of like recovery from chronic illness, from trauma, from PTSD and yeah, and

so then I started this project called the Solidarity Apothecary.

And the Apothecary supports people experiencing state violence.

So yeah, that's a big A big description, but basically I.

I send books to prisoners or like a team of us send books to prisoners around the world.

This Prisoner's herbal book that you've talked about on the show before,

I make medicine and care packages for people experiencing repression for prisoner family

members.

For four years I was going to France with a project called the Mobile Herbal Clinic.

And the.

Which still happens now,

we was doing like herbal first aid and healthcare with refugees and people on the

move.

And yeah, I also have like a. I'm part of an anarchist free clinic called the Black Flag

Herbal Clinic.

And I also support people one to one with

their health issues and health challenges.

Um, and I do a lot of that with a sliding scale and.

Yeah, and then I also like run these online courses for people to learn about trauma and

about herbalism for free if needed.

Like no one is turned away for lack of funds.

And yeah, I also have a podcast called the Frontline Herbalism Podcast.

And yeah, but basically it's all about herbalism and state violence.

And yeah, personally, I have a little baby who is nearly two and yeah, I think, I think

that's.

That's a brief introduction to all of the

things.

Yeah, yeah, that's amazing.

All the things you do, actually.

So.

Wow. Everything connected with plants, of course.

So I would like to,

yeah, focus just to start this like, conversation about this, about plants.

Like how you said you got in touch with plants mainly when you were in prison.

So as I understood, this was the moment when you started to really feel maybe the need also

plants.

And if you want, if you can like, explain us a little more about this connection when and how

it started.

Yeah, sure.

So,

I mean, with this prison experience,

like, I was very naive and I thought that going to prison would mean that I would have

like, no connection to the land anymore.

Like I'd,

you know, grown up very active for animal liberation.

Like, it was really the time when people were like,

super active for like earth liberation, like Earth first stuff, like green anarchism.

So like, you know, like, I was always in a strong relationship, I think, with the land.

But it wasn't until I was in prison where I guess I had like the.

The time to really slow the down and like build relationships one to one with plants.

And I remember, you know, walking into prison, like, you know, once I had been in the court

and all of this and seeing like all these ******* dandelions, like,

you know, just like along the.

The side of the concrete path and kind of like

laughing to myself of like, wow, what a ******* idiot.

I Thought that I wouldn't see a plant again for however many years I was expecting.

And there it was, you know, and even in this prison with 500 women,

like, and the concrete, there was actually, like, amazing plants, like, growing.

Yeah, like, growing in the concrete.

Or we had these, like, little kind of, like,

patches of grass.

And like, there was some, like, bigger

courtyard of.

Of, like,

of flowers, like, of roses.

And, like, I got a job in the prison because

you kind of, like, have to work.

Well, you don't have to, but if you don't, you just end up being locked in your cell, like,

24 ******* hours, which is ****.

But I got a job in the prison gardens, which meant that, like, you have to quote, unquote,

weed, where you're, like, pulling out plants.

And so I was, like, obviously rubbish at this

and didn't want to do it, but I like being outside.

And it was through this that I would,

yeah, just begin this very practical relationship with plants.

So no tasting the leaves and bringing, like, the root back to my pillow to my.

To my cells so that I could see sleep with this herb, like, under my pillow to make me

feel, you know, safer.

And I made, like, teas and, you know, like, I couldn't make all this, like, sexy *******,

you know, tinctures and all of this stuff, but I could every day sit outside with a plant,

you know, as much as I could for, like, okay, maybe it was only 20 minutes that we had of

freedom outside.

Well, not freedom, but, you know what I mean? Like, in this prison courtyard.

But it meant that, like,

I would see the same plant, like, through every season, you know, like, in the winter,

in the spring and the summer.

And it was this, like, intimacy that was, like, very different to me than anything I had

experienced in terms of, like.

Yeah, just kind of really getting to know the

herb, how it tasted, like its medicinal actions.

Experimenting, like, in every way possible, but with just, like, a few plants, you know,

like, the prisoner's herbal contains, like, 10. 10 plant profiles.

And these were, like, the 10 plants that I really connected with, like, deeply over, you

know, over two years, pretty much.

Okay. Yeah. So you have some companions, let's say the plants.

You could find them there.

They were.

They were there as you were.

So you were together.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

And. But how could you know what leaves to taste and which ones?

No, because a lot of plants are edible, but not all of them.

So did you know already something about it?

Well, so I was, like, really ******* lucky to be with, like, other people who knew

about herbalism.

So There was like one woman from Scotland

called Helen who,

you know, she was like in her 70s and she was a gardener her whole life.

So she was telling me about the plants.

And there was two women who are from this,

like, traveler background who still have, like, a good relationship with herbalism.

So they would also teach me things.

And then I got like a grant, like some financial support to do like a distance

learning course in herbalism.

And then once I started studying, like, that was it.

Like, I was just obsessed, you know?

Yeah.

So. So, okay,

we.

We skipped to the next question I was gonna ask you.

So how did you learn? How did you study?

So you.

You were saying that you started when you were

in prison already, right?

Yeah. Okay.

And then.

So you started there, and then you.

You continued.

I mean, how.

Since how you can.

Sorry, speak of yourself as a herbalist.

Sure. So, yeah, so it was a lot of this, like, distance learning courses.

And then in England, there's like quite a, like, specific system where, like, people can

do like a degree in herbal medicine,

but to do this degree,

you have to have, like a criminal record check because it's like classified as a healthcare

profession.

And the organization didn't want to let me study because they said I would bring

herbalism into disrepute.

So basically I would kind of like,

like embarrass herbalism or something.

Do you know what I mean?

So for a long ******* time, I didn't pursue this kind of like formal clinical training

because I was so angry that they wouldn't let me study because of my history.

But, you know, I also didn't want to, like, be part of this kind of, like, establishment

style organizing.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, because, you know, I'm a ******* anarchist.

And like, I didn't say to the judge that I had any ******* remorse.

So, like, why would I say to this herbal medicine organization that I show remorse?

Like, this is what they wanted.

They wanted me to, like, write this statement

saying that, like,

I will, like, never,

like, threaten the herbal profession again.

Which, you know, hopefully I do that every day of the week with the Solidarity pottery.

But I just.

Yeah, I thought that I would be this, like,

DIY herbalist for, you know, forever.

But then I eventually kept getting frustrated with my lack of knowledge in certain things.

Like most especially this, like, clinical.

Clinical side.

And then I can't remember what year.

But basically I found the school in Ireland who I studied with called the Plant Medicine

School.

And it was very similar to the UK program.

Like four years.

Like, I think it was like I don't.

I can't remember how many, like, thousands of hours, but it was, like, really comprehensive

training.

And I, you know, they knew me.

They knew about, like, my work and stuff, and

they were just like, yeah, like, come and study with us.

So I was super grateful to find a school that was, like, supportive of my politics and

enabling me of, like, doing my clinical training.

And, yeah, it's from that training that it's given me the confidence to support people,

like, one to one.

But, yeah, with herbal medicine, it's like, you're gonna be learning for a whole *******

lifetime, you know?

Yeah, I know.

Like, I don't think it's like, oh, you do this course and it makes you, like, a good

herbalist, like, at all.

Like, I think it's,

you know, it's like, one tool to develop your.

Your knowledge and your skills and to have,

like, mentoring and support.

But really, like, since I finished my clinical training, like, me, like, I am still, like,

studying, like, all the time, like, reading all the time, doing online courses,

like, doing this, further learning, because there is just so much to learn,

which is amazing and is probably why I am, like, passionate about herbalism for so long.

Um,

but, yeah, it's really, like, this lifelong, lifelong relationship.

Yeah. Okay, I see.

Me. Yeah, I can understand.

Even if I'm not starting herbalism, I'm just,

I would say, just starting gardening,

which even this is so difficult and so big,

like a huge subject.

So I can understand.

We never stop learning.

Yeah.

Yeah, sure.

Okay. So then.

So then what happened when you got out from prison?

Like, what about herbalism and all your projects?

What.

Yeah, what was the.

Yeah, what happened next? And if you started with solidarity apothecary

just after you.

You got out from prison or some time passed

meanwhile,

it was like, several,

several years.

Like, I.

I got out when I was, like,

22,

I think, or 23. 22, and I started the apothecary.

I. I don't know.

Sorry, my brain is gone.

I think I started the apothecary in 2018.

Oh, my God. So, like,

yeah,

I had no idea it had been this long, but, you know, for.

For a few years, for the apothecary, like, I still had, you know, like, another job, and it

was just like,

yeah, like one of many projects.

And over the time, it's become, like, bigger

and bigger.

And, like, it was only in 2023 that I, like,

started to take, like, a wage from the apothecary because I launched this online

course.

So. Yeah, it's only since then that it's become this really full time thing for me.

But yeah, after prison, I was like.

Because also in prison, I also studied

horticulture and food production.

So when I got out, I was quite active in this group called Reclaim the Fields.

And we were doing a lot of stuff around land and food autonomy, kind of like food

sovereignty struggles and like,

solidarity with, like, peasants around the world.

And yeah, like, I really loved this and I was very passionate about it.

And I started, like, a workers cooperative and we were doing, like, community food training

and stuff.

But because I'm like,

I have this, like, animal liberation background and I'm vegan, I found.

I did find it very difficult because a lot of people were farming animals.

And it just became too difficult for me to feel,

like, political affinity with people.

And I found that I was becoming, like, more and more passionate about herbalism.

And my life was so dominated by the prison system and this, like, prisoner solidarity

work that eventually it just became like, right, I just have to focus on these things.

Then I chose to focus on herbal medicine and on.

Yeah, on.

On prisoner support, basically.

Yeah.

Okay.

Wow.

Yeah. Yeah, I can understand your.

Your point of view.

Yeah.

About.

Yeah. The animals or the farmers.

Yeah, makes sense.

I mean.

Yeah. Okay,

so if you.

I'd like to ask you if you can tell us how the solidarity apothecary just born.

If there was a moment, an episode or a decision,

a strong decision,

and if you started this project on your own or if someone else was with you.

Yeah, So I remember that exact moment.

I was.

Okay, tell us.

In my car outside of my friend's prison,

and I would drive four and a half hours every Sunday to visit her and then drive four and a

half hours home.

And she had cancer at the time and was really ill.

And my other friend in prison was, like, really suicidal.

Like, he eventually died in prison.

But, like,

I was just like,

so,

like,

like tired and broken of.

Of meeting, like, all of these prisoner family

members like, every weekend who had similar lives to me and seeing the impact of the

stress on their bodies.

And I was so lucky that I had access to herbal medicine and that I could support myself and

that I was like,

just feeling like, I guess a lot stronger than many other people because of this privilege

and access to medicine.

But I just.

Yeah, I just remember feeling like,

yeah, I want to start a project that is, like, specifically for prisoner family members.

And I had a little notebook and I wrote down.

I was like, thinking of names and I wrote

down, like, solidarity apothecary.

And then that was it.

I was just like, ****.

And, you know, I like.

I do everything, like, too fast.

So like, within, like, a month, I was, like, building the website and, like,

you know, getting my friend to make the logo and this stuff.

But,

yeah, like, I had already spent, like, several years supporting people kind of like,

informally with medicine.

Like,

yeah, like, there's like, a local chapter of, like, the Anarchist Black Cross, which is like

a network all over the world of people supporting anarchists and people experiencing

repression.

And, you know, I would be sending different

people in this network, like Herbal Medicine.

And I just.

Yeah, I just decided that I wanted to make it,

like, its own project.

But, yeah, this.

This time, I also,

like, unfortunately,

my,

like,

I was getting, like, very kind of.

I don't know, I was.

I was struggling in.

In groups after,

you know,

like 20 years of, like, collectives and this.

You know, you'll know all this stuff, but,

like, the.

The dynamics, like the classism, the sexism,

like, how people take you for granted, like,

the unpaid labor.

Like, I was so done with, like, these ******

collectives and being treated badly and this, like, burnout machine that was, like, burning

everyone out that, like,

I just decided, like, I want to do this on my own as a kind of, like, source of, like,

nourishment and pleasure.

And I think that was, like, the best decision I ever made.

And it meant that the apothecary became something that was, like, full of ******* joy

for me and creativity and power in terms of, like, connection to the land.

And I could just be like myself somehow.

And because, you know, like, I had a lot of, like, trauma growing up.

Like, trust issues,

like, abandonment issues, like,

so, like, I'm still, you know, involved in a lot of collectives and mo nearly all of the

work with the solidarity of hospitality.

I'm working with other people, like, all the

time.

But, yeah, it just felt so ******* nice to do something as this kind of, like,

solo project.

And. Yeah, and it's, you know, it's still me that does, like, most of the work, but I work

with people, like, all over the world, which is awesome.

And, you know, like, I believe in collectivity and that we have to do things together,

but I also think it's totally okay for people to do work on their own, you know, like,

whether that's writing or music or gardening or like, whatever.

Like, I think humans need to be able to explore themselves as, like, individuals.

And I feel like, for me, this is like, what anarchism offers.

It's like this balance between collectivity and collective needs.

While not repressing like individuality and.

Yeah, and so I feel like the apothecary is

like my expression of that,

if that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, a lot.

That's,

that's very interesting.

Very really amazing and.

Yeah, yeah, it does make sense.

Actually.

It gives me a lot of things to think.

So now I'm.

Okay, let's make another question.

But you know.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah, no, it's, it's really interesting actually that the, the thing of keeping the

authenticity.

Do you say that of our own being and our own way of living as well.

So.

Yeah.

Okay, so now let's talk about commercial.

No, I'm, I'm joking.

But like I would like to do a focus about how can,

how can people use the.

Your like the solidarity path quiz.

So what can you,

what do you offer to people? What kind of herbal support and how is it

structured and.

Yeah, what kind of clinic and herbal support do you offer?

Sure.

So yeah, there's lots of different things but like one of the main things is these herbal

care packages.

So these are like, these are free, like anyone can request them.

And I make them for people experiencing repression and prisoner family members and

hunt sabs, which like a group of people like who sabotage like fox hunts and stuff in the

uk.

And also people involved in like grassroots groups organizing for liberation in different

ways.

And also like sites of resistance, you know, like land occupations or protest camps, things

like this.

So there's like an online form and people fill

it in with their address.

I check if they're on any like medication or there's like any risk of like pregnancy,

things like this.

And then I send them a package so it contains like herbs for like supporting the nervous

system and the immune system.

So it's often about helping people like cope with something difficult without getting sick,

you know, especially if they're doing like something through the winter.

And I also make amazing like lavender oil with olive oil from the west bank in Palestine and

do.

And I do like a tea blend.

So yeah, so all the packs are like a little bit different but they are like I fundraise

for them and they get sent to people like all over the world.

Like for example, recently like a bunch of medicine went to people in the so called US

who are like resisting ice, like resisting these fascists who are like deporting people

and you know, detaining them.

And so like I sent some packages to people that are like super active in resisting this.

I've sent like packs to people who are doing like medic work on like migrant like

solidarity Kind of ships and things.

Like, people doing, like, hunt, Sabotage.

Yeah, just like all sorts of people request them and I send them.

So that's like one big part.

And then the prisoners, herbal books, like

we've mentioned anyone can request them around the world and we send them for free.

So there's an amazing crew called Midwest Books to prisoners who post them out in the US

and then there's like, several translated editions.

So it's in, like, Romanian and, as you know, Italian.

The French version is coming very soon.

I feel like it's in other languages and my brain's gone Spanish.

Yeah.

So a friend has been distributing it a lot in,

like, Mexico and Chile and another comrade in, like, across the, like, Spanish state.

So,

yeah, so again, this is like another offering.

And then, yeah, with my clinic, so I have,

like, a couple of options.

So there's this Black Flag herbal clinic,

which is like an anarchist free clinic.

And we see people online.

At the moment, it's mostly me, and there's lots of people involved who.

Who are kind of learning herbalism, who, like, watch the consultation.

And then together we put together this, like, list of kind of herbal recommendations.

And then if the person, the comrade, is happy, then I will make the medicine for them and

post it to them.

So that's available to anyone around the world for free who kind of identifies as an

anarchist.

And through that clinic, like, people don't have to have students.

If they just want privacy with me, then we can just do it, like, together.

And then,

because, you know, like, I'm a single mom with a baby and, like, capitalism.

Right.

Like, I need money as well.

So I also have a clinic for people that can pay, but it's still, like, sliding scale.

But they can work with me for five months and I send the medicine to last that whole time.

And it's super ******* holistic, like, looking at all sorts of, like, interconnected health

issues.

And yeah, I ******* love that.

It's like my favorite thing to do because I just see people have, like, so much less pain

and inflammation and recover from literally lifelong ******* anxiety.

And,

yeah, it's really, really special,

really lush work that I love.

And then,

yeah, I guess what kind of, like, makes all of this stuff possible are, like, my online

courses.

So I teach a course about herbal medicine and trauma and, like, ptsd.

And it's super, super comprehensive.

It's open for enrollment at the moment,

and people join that from around the world.

And, you know, they can pay for it or they can

pay, like, via like, a small amount each month.

And it's also like free for anyone who cannot afford to pay for it because of *******

capitalism and poverty and everything else.

So.

So yeah, I'm very grateful that that course like funds like 90% of what I do.

So if anyone listening, unfortunately it is obviously in English, but one day we'll have

it translated different languages.

But yeah, if anyone is interested in learning

herbalism, like they can join that.

And it's like, yeah, very structured, looking at like trauma and the body and medicine

making and how to build relationship with plants.

And there's like 32 in depth profiles on like specific herbs that have a,

like a strong relationship with the nervous system.

So yeah, so that's like, that's the, the main kind of offerings.

Okay. Okay. Talking again about that course, like how, how long is it and is it in

group or like a class with other people?

No, so it's like completely pre recorded so people can complete it at their

own pace and just like watch it's like online videos and you can download the slides.

And I really didn't want to create something that involved a lot of extra work for people

who are struggling with ptsd.

Like I wanted to create something that was like very calm and easy to do and at your own

pace.

And like the feedback I've had on that is like

epic.

Like people love that they can just do it when they want to do it.

I forgot to say, I also facilitate these group programs which are like more involved.

So like they're for people who are experiencing repression or I recently did one

for people experiencing burnout from, you know, being involved in different struggles.

And with those programs we meet every two weeks, we have a group call, we have a group

chat.

And then people also have like individual

herbal support to just take things away from that like one to one focus to like group

collective care.

So yeah, I do those programs like through the year as well as if I'm not already busy

enough.

I really like it.

Yeah. And do you do all those activities like always online or for example, this group

program, is it.

How do you say, like in presence? I don't know, how do you say it in English?

Yeah, so those programs are online, but I forgot another thing.

Yeah, okay, go ahead, critique.

I also teach these face to face medicine making courses twice a year.

And a third of the people that come get a free place.

Like if they are experiencing like financial,

you know, distress or poverty, then they can come for free and then the other people pay.

And yeah, it's like three days of like all the practical medicine making like harvesting,

making tinctures, glycerites, infused oils, ointments,

and yeah, it's tons of fun.

Like, it's really nice experience.

Like, the group is always great people.

My assistant, who comes, who I now pay to be my assistant is actually like an Italian

comrade who came to one.

So, yeah, it's.

It's funny.

But yeah.

Okay.

Wow. Nice.

Well,

let's see.

I'd like to ask you about the PTSD because you

also, from your website of the solidarity apothecary, you talk about it very often and

you spend a lot of times and programs to deal with this.

So I would really,

for now, ask you what is it? Because also the.

We don't talk about this a lot in Italy.

So.

Yeah, I kind of think that maybe we have two different perception of this problem maybe in

Italy and England or.

I don't know if I'm right, but yeah.

So let's talk about it.

If you can explain us what it is and also how you deal with this.

Sure.

So I use the phrase ptsd, like post traumatic stress disorder only because it's like,

culturally known.

I don't believe it is like a quote unquote disorder.

Like, I don't believe in this kind of like,

oppressive tool of like, labeling people with different disorders, for example,

But I just use it because it's familiar, to be honest.

And I talk about this in the course.

Like, we look, you know, we look at the

definition and blah, blah, blah.

But basically what I'm trying to talk about on a bigger level is how our bodies are obviously

shaped by all of our life experiences.

You know, like good ones, bad ones.

Like, all of the things like how we, you know, how we grow up, like our nutrition, like the

levels of stress in our lives, like,

you know, whether we smoke or drink alcohol.

Like, so many forces shape our bodies and

constantly influence how we are feeling, right?

And contribute to the development of diseases, for example, you know, including this, like,

genetic, like, intergenerational things.

You know, like if someone in your history has had a experience of famine, then like, or

starvation, like, this is felt like several generations later in the, like, metabolic,

like, system, for example.

So there's all these things that affect

people.

But trauma, which I define as like a kind of like, distressing,

like, experience or like an injuring experience,

like, this also has like, a big influence on someone's body,

most dramatically on the kind of stress response and our, like, hormonal systems of if

we are,

you know, becoming in this state of like, fight or flight, you know, where historically

you Might be chased by a ******* tiger or a bear or something.

And be extremely frightened and have a lot of adrenaline and stress hormones that are

necessary to keep you safe and keep you running from the bear.

But when we are living in, like,

our societies now, like, we don't have a bear, but, like,

well, some places still have bears.

But, like, actually it's like the.

The police are the bear, you know, or like, the prison system or the abusive father or,

you know, the rapists.

Like, there's all these other factors of oppression that are kind of very real

influences on our bodies.

And,

you know, unfortunately, like, this has, like, real consequences for people.

Whether that's,

you know, like, I talk about it in the course, like, how our bodies, like, express distress

in different ways, you know, and that might be sleep disturbances because we have too high

levels of cortisol or something.

So we're waking up in the night, it might be nightmares.

It might be, like, flashbacks or triggers.

It might be, like, extreme, like, tension in the body.

Like, maybe it's the digestive system, you know, like having, like, nervous diarrhea or

constipation or whatever.

But, like, we all experience stress,

and that comes out in our bodies.

And the best part of herbal medicine is that,

like, there are.

There is support for those stress responses to

make us feel, like, more safe and to repair, like, damage caused by trauma and by.

Caused by these events.

And not just events, but, you know, like,

ways of living in the world.

But specific PTSD I see when a trauma response is somehow, like, stuck in the body.

So, for example, like,

you know, my experiences in prison were, like, ******* horrible, as is for any prisoner.

But when I get out, I'm no longer in prison, but I'm still seeing images in my head of

people trying to hang themselves.

Or I'm still feeling unsafe in the world, or

I'm still having, like, nightmares about being trapped in a ******* cell and not being able

to get out.

And this is when, like, something does actually become,

like, disordered, if that makes sense.

Because it's not necessary to have those

feelings anymore because you are, like, quote unquote, safe.

Even though, you know,

safety is a weird thing.

Like, you could still end up back in prison,

right? Like, so you're not completely free of this.

But I try and support people with herbal medicine to kind of, like,

move through this distress and to build a feeling of safety in the world.

And I think when.

When people's relationship to other people is,

like, destroyed by trauma, like, they don't trust people.

They don't feel Safe,

then plant medicines can be ******* incredible because we can have a relationship that feels

safer.

You know, you can have a relationship with a

plant.

You can feel like in this relaxed nervous

system state.

You know, that's why a lot of people end up loving things like gardening, because it makes

them feel calm, you know, and it makes them feel resourced and connected to the world and

they forget about all the horrible things.

And that's what I think herbalism offers.

Like it's the act of herbalism, it's the

foraging, it's the medicine making, it's the growing.

Like all of these activities help the body to feel like, safer and to feel more alive and

connected and more joyful.

And for people who've experienced like hardcore ******* trauma,

there is nothing more life changing than having access to something that enables you to

experience a different reality.

Sorry, that was a really long answer.

But to.

That makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, it makes sense so much.

It's a perfect answer.

Like,

yeah,

yeah, sorry,

it's touching.

So maybe it's.

Sorry, I cannot find the word obvious.

Yeah, maybe it's obvious question.

But so in all the like clinic or group programs or even the,

the online course is everything you do.

So you explain and talk about the herbal medicines, but I imagine you also do some

like, psychological support in a way.

In some way.

As you said,

everything about the stress and the repression as the problem comes from repression.

Of course we can help it with plants and herbalism, but do you also talk about the.

How to manage it psychologically with your clients?

I don't know how to call people who work with you.

Yeah,

so like, this is actually why I created the herbalism and PTSD course.

Because it was really, really clear to me that people like benefit more from like having an

understanding of their own body and having a language for it than anything that I can do

for them.

You know, like being able to study and understand the nervous system and understand,

oh, this is me when I'm in like fight or flight.

And when I'm in fight or flight, I don't want physical touch, I don't want to eat, I don't

want to,

to sleep.

So how can I help myself feel more like rested

and safe and social?

Like no herb I can give someone or consultation like can ever replace someone

having their own like autonomy and understanding of their body.

And that's why like I'm so passionate about the education is because like, for me, like, I

just feel like I spent like my childhood and my 20s just like bouncing around like being a,

like Harming people, harming myself, like, because I had no language for what I was

experiencing.

Like, I didn't,

you know, I didn't know what.

How to feel kind of like.

Like safe, if that makes sense.

And I feel like.

Yeah, that's why it's really powerful for me to, like, offer that in the.

In the course and also to offer everything in, like, an interconnected way.

So, like, there is, for example,

a module about, like, collective responses to traumatic stress because,

you know, like, I can do a lot of, like, self education around the nervous system and work

with plants and like, all this amazing stuff.

But, like, if my ******* friend is being,

like, tortured in solitary confinement in ******* prison, then, like, I need, like,

collective support with that,

you know, we need a ******* campaign.

We need to, like, fight for them.

They need support.

Like,

so it's kind of like we have to, like, address the.

The root causes of trauma, if that makes sense.

Like, we have to address,

you know, why children are oppressed, like, why we have this endemic of childhood abuse.

You know, we have to address, like, patriarchy and, you know, heteronormativity and,

like, all of these things, you know, like,

there's one thing, like, kind of.

I don't want to say, like, treating trauma

because I.

I don't see it like that.

But we have to also prevent it, right?

And we have to stop it.

So that's why.

Yeah, like, the education stuff is so important is because it's not one or the

other.

You know, it's not like, oh, I just want to support all these people leaving prison with

their PTSD through herbalism.

It's like, I want to stop them building more

prisons, you know, and I want to,

like.

Yeah, so anyway, I feel like most people

listening will understand that, but.

Yeah, so, like, for example, with my clients, like, I'm not.

I'm not, like,

you know, doing any sort of, like, counseling or anything like this, but, like, I am always

obviously, like, listening to them and their experiences and what's happened.

So I can understand,

like, what.

Herbal medicine might be supportive, but I

always encourage people to, like, access as much care as possible.

You know, like, whether that's like a talking therapy or herbalism or, like, you know, like

a signal group of their friends offering, like, collective support.

Like,

yeah, we need, you know, we ******* need it all, really.

Yeah, yeah.

That's why before you were saying about

holistic approach,

I suppose.

Yeah, yeah.

The. The true holistic.

It's not just the different types of medicine, but it's also,

yeah, the reality of things and how.

Yeah,

countries and politics work.

Of course.

Yeah, that's.

Everything's so interesting and so touching

and so important.

I'm so happy we are doing this interview.

Yeah.

Okay, so before you talked about getting in touch with plants makes you feel calm,

relaxed, makes you feel better because you get in touch actually with nature and the real

world.

So I'm curious about if you've seen a difference,

like an important difference of this process of getting in touch with plants between the

face to face course, the practical course that you do, you said twice a year,

and for example, the people who use the PTSD traumatic stress course and all the other

online courses.

You do.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, I think like I encourage in the online

course that people develop like a practice with plants that involves like something like

physical as much as they're able, you know, in terms of their body,

whether that's like sitting outside with a plan or getting involved in a community

garden.

Like, I think that like embodies relationship

is just like the most important thing.

And yeah, like when people come to the face to

face course, like you can see this like life changing impact on,

you know, seeing a herb for the first time that they've only read about in the course.

You know, like a lot of people who come have done the online course.

So then for them they're like, wow, like I'm ******* tasting like lemon balm or I'm like

tasting this rose medicine or you know, I'm sitting under a hawthorne tree maybe for the

first time in their life, you know.

But yeah, I always think this like physical, tangible, like body experience is like, yeah,

super amazing.

Okay.

Hawthorne. Sorry, I was googling it.

Yeah, yeah, I know this land.

Sorry.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah, that's interesting as well.

Yeah.

Now I do also like to like remember that people are listening to us.

That in the Prisoner's Herbal there is also a very nice part,

I think one of the last chapters or something like that where you talk about getting in

touch with plants,

how you did it, like how, I mean, how it happened to you to get in touch with them and

how you like recommend,

let's say to do it, to try it.

So it's a very interesting thing, like just

getting to know plants as if they were,

I mean they are really alive.

So as if they could be our friends as well and

our allies.

Okay,

well, I'd like to ask you, how do you,

how do you say, make like produce your.

The plant medicines you use and you give to people like who harvests and who produce them?

Yeah. So I guess there's like two versions.

There's like pre.

Pre.

Baby Nicole.

Okay.

Do. Do everything.

Like, I would be harvesting and growing and doing, like, so much, like, work on the land

in terms of, like, foraging and walking for miles, like, all of this stuff.

And then, yeah, since having my baby,

it's just so much harder.

Like, when he's big enough to.

To walk with me, like, he can walk, but as in, like, if we go outside, he just wants to run

off, you know?

Yeah.

But when he's.

When he's bigger, like, when he can just,

like, help harvest medicine with me, then I'm just.

Sorry, I'm just getting distracted.

One second.

Yeah, go on.

Okay. But yeah, like, so anyway, when.

Yeah, it's just harder at the moment.

So like,

now I am having to, like, buy more plants, like, often from, like, local growers, which

is really nice.

But, like, there's like, an organic hub

trading company who I buy, like, organic dried herbs from.

And then I make things called glycerites, which are, like, herbs in, like, organic

vegetable glycerin.

And I make them in, like, a slow cooker.

In fact, I have several slow cookers.

I have a whole building of slow cookers that

are, like, making medicine.

So, yeah, it's a mix.

Unfortunately, with my practice at the moment,

I am buying more things than I've ever done simply from, like,

not having enough time.

But, like, this year,

one of my goals is, like, really to have, like, more kind of collectivity with medicine

making, like, having more people come.

Which is why I, like, started this Black flag

herbal clinic.

Because then it can become this, like, real collective process.

Because,

like, I just felt uncomfortable someone paying me for help and then being dependent on, like,

unpaid labor.

Like, it didn't feel good.

Whereas if I can have, like, a separate project that's like,

just free medicine for people, then I'm, like, very happy to receive that help.

Does that make any sense?

Capitalism? But the short answer is I try my hardest to

make as much medicine as I can.

And anything that I can't make, I will try and

buy from comrades or from suppliers that have some kind of integrity in capitalism is a bit

difficult.

But yeah,

okay.

Okay.

Yeah, because I imagine I can.

Yeah, I can just imagine how.

How big is the work of making all these medicines?

Like, I think it takes a lot of time.

Yeah, I've started paying, like, a couple of people to help just for like, four

or five days, like, to just make loads at once.

And this is helping a lot, like, with these herbal care Packages which have like a. You

know,

I'm just distributing like hundreds, like, if not like thousands, like each year.

So.

Yeah, like, it is difficult,

especially.

Yeah.

With.

With a toddler.

Oh, I'm getting there.

I'm getting there.

So.

Okay.

Okay, then I'd like to maybe we change a little bit the,

The. The. The.

Sorry, this not really the subject, but the place of the story.

So before you talked very few about the.

When you went to the front,

to the.

Sorry.

In France.

Yeah. In the frontier.

No, what's the name of that?

Like the border.

Yeah, border.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah, yeah.

So if you want to talk about this a little,

like,

how was all the thing working and you're not doing it anymore, if I understood.

Yeah. So I'm still very involved in the project,

like doing fundraising and medicine making.

I make all the cough syrup and stuff, but I

haven't been able to go,

sadly, and work in the clinic myself because of the baby.

But.

Yeah, so the Mobile Herbal Clinic Calais is like a monthly.

We try and go every month, but it's often really difficult, like, financially to.

To do that.

But it's normally one week a month working in

Calais and Dunkirk, like, in Northern France.

And we have a team of, like, a doctor and like, her, like,

more, you know, like three.

Three herbalists.

Sometimes we have someone who's just working, like, as a translator,

but we basically have a van and we drive to the different encampments in the area and

offer, like, first aid.

So we have an internal station where we're

supporting people with things like coughs and colds and upper respiratory infections and,

like, short term, like, GI problems like diarrhea.

And then we have, like, an external aid station where we're doing, like, wound care

and foot care for people that have, you know, like, fungal infection stuff in their feet.

And, yeah, it's all, like, in solidarity with people on the move who are living in these

******* awful conditions because of, like, the ******* state and racism and this border

regime violence.

So, yeah, you see, like, a lot of injuries from, you know, police violence and people,

you know, nearly drowning, like, trying to get to the UK and stuff.

So it's very *******, like, intense.

But the people that we serve, like, ******* love herbal medicine, like, because they

nearly all come from places where there's, like, much bigger traditions of herbal

medicine.

So this is really nice, like this, having these conversations about plants and herbs

and.

Yeah, and we make, like, all the medicine ourselves.

And.

Yeah, it's like a. It's a big ******* project.

Like, it's expensive to run and involves a lot

of grassroots organizing and training and,

yeah, lots of stress over the years, especially during the pandemic.

But I think it is, like, a beautiful example of herbal solidarity because all of these

herbal medicines are, like, very effective in these contexts.

You know, like, preventing someone's cough or cold from becoming, like, more serious, you

know, from developing into, like, pneumonia or something.

And we can offer a lot of, like, amazing support with, like, wound healing for people

that have, you know, got, like, infected bites and things from living outside.

So, yeah, like, it's.

I think it's amazing example of solidarity,

but it's also a really great example of, like, herbal medicine in action, like, in this

context.

So, yeah, I'm still, like, super passionate about it.

And one day when my child is a bit bigger, I will be back working in France, I'm sure.

But yeah,

okay, when you say,

I mean,

how.

How long do people stay in.

In there?

I mean, are they just passing by?

So they're, like, doing one night over there to continue their travel the day after,

hopefully, or is it.

Yeah, okay.

It's. It's very.

Is very varied.

So some people, it's, like, quite fast.

Like, if,

like, some money, for example, that can pay, like, a person to help them get space on a

boat, then maybe they are only staying, like, in the camps, like, a few nights for other

people.

They can be living there for, like, ******* years, like, and having to do things like sex

work and stuff in order to, like, survive.

And, you know, like, unfortunately, this is, like,

very racialized.

Like, it's often the guys, like, from, like,

Sudan, for example, that have, like, no ******* money.

So, like,

for them to try and, like, pay someone to cross is, like, really difficult compared to

someone with, like, maybe some more financial resources.

So, yeah, so it's not uncommon that you will go one month and then the next month you will

see the same people.

And through that time, they've been trying to cross, you know, like, trying to get into

lorries or,

you know, like, trying to get boats and, like, things like this.

And, like, you know, I've met, like, entire families who have then died, like, one week

later, like, including a family with their baby.

Like, and I met this baby, and then one week later, like, this baby's in the bottom of the

sea, you know, like,

it's just *******, like.

It's like.

I'm sure lots of people listening have probably done, like, refugee solidarity, but,

like,

it is so harrowing, like, what people are, like, subjected to and, like, how they're

having to live and like the conditions,

like the life threatening risk, risks they take trying to get to like the uk, you know.

You know, like, we've seen like people who've been like literally tortured like in Libya.

And you know, people who've been like, have only got like one leg because they like had

their leg blown off by the Taliban or like, you know, like, it's just so much like

violence that is just like really intense and like the police in France are like,

I mean police everywhere are like scum.

Right.

But like these guys are like so violent like that.

We just see like so much police violence.

So. Yeah, anyway, it's.

Yeah, so yeah, people are there like different

lengths of time.

Okay.

And when you say you go there or you used to go there once a month,

it means you go there for like some days once a month and then you come back.

Yeah, it would be like a whole week and then we'd come back to the uk.

Like,

we talked a lot about like whether we could maintain like a longer presence.

But like the problem is like,

because we make all of the medicine ourselves, it would cost like £3,000 just for like five

days because you see like hundreds of people.

So like to do that like every day of the year, like we would need like probably like, you

know, tens of thousands of pounds.

And it's like drives me crazy because like

it's so hard to get donations, like, and it takes so much energy doing these fundraisers

and selling ******* T shirts and it's like we just need more resources.

So. Yeah, so right now it's just like one week a month and that's like felt fairly

sustainable even though it's still a real challenge.

Yeah. So the three weeks, let's say, of the month that you are not there, you're not.

How do you say there's not another clinic coming to substitute you?

Oh yeah.

So, well, not a herbal medicine one, but like

there's some, like, there's an amazing group called no Borders Medics who,

excuse me, like operate in Dunkirk who are like awesome, like good politics and they,

they have like a permanent presence and there's also you know, like medicine and like

another,

like there's another UK first aid team called FAST and.

And yeah, so there is like some healthcare provision and also like in the area there is

like a unit in the hospital that will see people without papers.

But a lot of the refugees like don't even know it exists.

So a large part of what we do with the clinic is like, is information.

Like we have leaflets translated into like 20 languages where, like, how people can find the

hospital,

where they can find, like, the food distribution, where they can find clothes

distribution.

And. Yeah, like, our goal is always to make sure, like, the people that need to go to

hospital are, like, supported to go to hospital.

And we do a lot of, like, advocacy, like, in the hospital, because, you know, like, people

are ******* racist.

So, like, it helps if there's like this white

volunteer speaking French, like, to help them.

So. Yeah, but the three weeks, like, in between the trip, like, that's when we're

doing like, the other things, like the medicine making and the fundraising and like.

Yeah, all of this stuff.

Stuff.

Okay.

And also, do you.

How do you.

How is it with the police? Like, do you struggle with them?

Because is it legal for you to stay there with a clinic?

Yeah, so, like, it's a bit weird in herbal medicine in France.

With herbal medicine, it's like, actually illegal to practice without,

like, being a doctor.

But we have, like, French doctors in the

project, which helps.

But,

yeah, like, you do get harassment from the police to a point, you know, where they want

to check your papers and stuff like this.

But, like, it's nothing compared to what,

like, you know, the refugees go through the police, of course.

But I did, like, a few years ago, like, my van got like, completely smashed in by fascists

who.

Because I had, like, an altercation with the

police.

Like, and like, they were trying, like, we had

like a.

We were trying to distribute our site.

They were trying to block us.

Like, I was kind of arguing with them.

And then like at like five o' clock the next morning, like, I heard this bang and I, like,

opened the window and, like, my windscreen had got like a brick through it.

But, you know, within a couple of hours, like, we hired another vehicle and I did a

crowdfunder and like, managed to replace the screen and stuff.

But unfortunately now, like, the far right, especially from England, are like, coming to

France to, like target people on the move and to target volunteers.

So I think,

yeah, things have always been, like, tense, but I, I have, you know, I worry about this

stuff just like escalating and escalating.

But, yeah, we'll see where things go.

Yeah.

Okay. Okay.

Wow. Such a huge work.

I.

Wow. Really?

It's amazing to, To.

To. To use the herbal.

I mean,

for this kind of help, this kind of support.

It's so stressing.

All the repression there is in this world.

It's.

It's crazy and it's always getting worse.

I cannot.

Yeah, it's.

Yeah.

Anyway.

Okay,

okay.

Well, I kind of asked you so many things.

You told us so many amazing information.

So I'd say if you want to add any.

Anything else,

I could.

We could keep talking for hours, but I'd say

maybe.

Yeah.

Unfortunately, I do have to leave in a second, but yeah, I guess I forgot to say in

the beginning, like with these books that I have a book called Herbalism and State

Violence,

which talks about all of this stuff, like all of the.

All of these different projects, like how to make herbal care packages for people

experiencing repression.

All about the clinic and Calais and our different recipes and how to work with the

nervous system.

And.

Yeah, it's only in English, but if anyone is interested in this work, you can buy it as a

physical book from Active Distribution or you can buy it as an ebook book on my website.

And in the winter, like, PM Press are going to be publishing it as well.

But yeah, like, this book, I guess, brings together everything we've been talking about

in one place.

So maybe that's a good resource to finish

with.

Yeah, perfect.

Thank you for this.

Well, I will finish.

So I'll just say that,

as you were saying, you have a way of accepting donations.

So I'll just say that on your website there is the way of getting you donations for all the

different projects you do.

And of course, I will copy the link of your website on the podcast page of this episode.

So,

yeah, listeners can find it.

And yeah,

I really thank you so much.

I don't know if you really have to leave.

No worries.

Otherwise I would ask you the.

A plant story.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, I can just.

I can just say again about, like, the

dandelion that, like, this was my gateway hub of, like, finding this hub in the prison

garden and sleeping with it under my.

Under my pillow.

And like, yeah, like, you can read about this

story in the Prisoner's Herbal book.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, it's a very nice story.

Yeah.

Very cute also.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, thank you so much then.

It's been so important.

Thank you again so much.

No problem.

Yeah, keep in touch.

And the Wombat Radio microphones are open for

other projects that you will manage to do in the future.

Perfect.

All right, take care.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, thank you so much.

Okay, bye. Bye. Bye. Thanks so much for listening to the Frontline Herbalism

podcast.

You can find the transcript, the links, all

the resources from the show@solidarityapothecary.org podcast.