This episode shares an interview with Nicole Rose on the Planting Medicine Podcast.

About the episode: Emiliano Lemus interviews Nicole Rose of Solidarity Apothecary about herbs to resist fascism. They discuss organizing strategies for connecting with plant medicines as our communities navigate ICE and police violence, prisoner support, protests, and more. We also chat about Nicole Rose’s book, Herbalism and State Violence: Practical Herbal Medicine for Surviving State Repression, available as a fund drive thank you gift.

Links & resources from this episode

• Planting Medicine Podcast - https://kpfa.org/program/planting-medicine/
• Rosehip Herbal Clinic - https://rosehip.clinic/
• Herbalism and State Violence Ebook - https://solidarityapothecary.org/product/herbalism-and-state-violence-ebook/

Find them all at solidarityapothecary.org/podcast/

Support the show

Music from Sole & DJ Pain – Battle of Humans | Plant illustrations by @amani_writes | In solidarity, please subscribe, rate & review this podcast wherever you listen.

Welcome to the Frontline Herbalism Podcast with your host, Nicole Rose from the

Solidarity Apothecary.

This is your place for all things plants and

liberation.

Let's get started.

Hello.

Welcome back to the Frontline Herbalism

Podcast.

How are you doing?

I feel like I've ghosted you.

I'm sorry, I had a little bit of a podcast

break after the course launch for the Herbalism PTSD and traumatic stress course

because, you know, it's just like such a huge amount of effort to do all the promotion and

social media and you know,

troubleshooting if someone's got an access issue and stuff like this.

So.

As in, you know, like a login user thing.

But yeah, I'm super,

super grateful for everyone who joined the course.

Amazing to have a bunch of people inside it already getting emails from people saying how

helpful it's being.

So that's really awesome.

Yeah, been a busy bee.

I'm just kind of like back to back with the

clients which is, you know, which is great.

I've got.

Yeah,

I've recently redesigned my clinic website and I'm gonna do like a little announcement about

that soon.

But yeah, I'm trying to get a little bit

better at doing kind of like.

Yeah, kind of more focused like paid work with clients and more clearer boundaries around

like unpaid work.

Especially as a single mum with a toddler on

one little income.

So yeah, I've kind of created like a limited

company.

Check me out as like a separate.

Yeah, it'll just be like an easier way of,

you know, like if we get donations for things like the Black Flag Herbal Clinic, the free

clinic, then I can stick a sticker on them and I can know that that's for like solidarity

things.

And if I have paying clients then I can buy medicine or make medicine for that.

So yeah, it just hopefully will be a bit kind of cleaner.

And I've just been upgrading all my systems, making a really nice little kind of welcome

pack for new clients in terms of all the things like how to request refills,

how to communicate with me, et cetera, et ceter.

But yeah, I'm going to talk about all of that stuff soon.

But I do have a little bit of space miraculously for new people.

So if you were looking for like one to one herbal support, then please reach out to me.

Like I said, I'm going to record a separate thing all about it.

But basically it's like a signing scale.

There's monthly payment plans.

Yeah. And I support people over five months in a super comprehensive way looking at like

really clear kind of health goals together.

And yeah, it's awesome.

It's like pretty much one of my favorite parts

of being a herbalist, so.

Because you get to see the herbs doing their

magic, if that makes sense.

Okay. So I've also been a busy bee.

I taught a three day practical medicine making

course which as always was ******* dreamy.

Beautiful group of humans, like just amazing having people from all over the world there.

The weather was awesome.

We always have awesome weather for the

courses.

I've just jinxed it now because I've got another one coming up really soon so I'm

probably gonn make it rain now.

But yeah, had a really wonderful three day

course.

It's so much work like beforehand in terms of like prepping things, ordering things.

We made loads of medicine for the clinic in Calais.

So yeah, lots of logistical thinking in there.

But it was really, really wonderful.

Like I forgotten that kind of magic of

introducing people to a herb like in real life if they've only just read about it in a book.

So yeah, it was really, really special.

And then I also had a few days off this weekend.

I went down to see my ex's mum with Lee.

He got to see his old other, his whole other side of the family and like play with his

cousins and like, yeah, it was super, super nice.

We actually ended up going to the kind of beach where I spread my friend Taylor's ashes

in the sea.

So yeah, that was really special.

Taking my little one there and seeing him throw stones in the water and knowing that

just a few years ago,

like life was pretty ******* joyless.

Not gonna lie, there was a lot of *******

grief and pain and rage and I cannot believe what an amazing thing having a baby is.

No one tells you how wonderful it is.

So yeah, I'm very, very grateful.

But it was a really nice few days.

Was like really difficult not working.

Like I was just watching trash in the evening

and stuff and like trying not to think about the solidarity apothecary.

And it was,

yeah, I was like this is interesting, like why is this so difficult?

But I think it's just like single mom hustle, you know.

And I'm really passionate about what I do as you can probably tell.

So I love thinking about things.

How can I improve things?

Systems.

Trying to not get shiny object syndrome with

like the new projects and stuff.

But anyway, I am back and yeah, I,

I'm going to be back with some podcasts.

So I have been in contact with several people

about interviews.

I'm just sort of waiting for People to kind of

like book themselves into my calendar to make that happen.

And in the meantime, until those interviews are done and edited and things, I'm going to

be doing some kind of more like solo recorded episodes.

So I'm going to be talking about my sort of clinical practice and like the benefits of

working with a herbalist versus kind of DIY health support and why it's not a binary.

And I.

I'm worried about promising this, but I'm hoping I'm going to do a miniseries all about

medicine making because I feel like it's the ******* time now.

Like all the herbs are out.

Just been in between the two pract medicine making courses that I teach.

And yeah, I just like love talking about it.

So watch your space for that.

But for today I'm gonna share like a repost of an interview I did.

So I was interviewed on a show called Planting Medicine which used to be called the Herbal

Highway.

Maybe people have heard of it.

It's based in the so called US and it's like

hosted and produced by Emiliano and Renee.

I haven't met Rene yet, but yeah, it was

really lovely to be interview.

And yeah,

basically they've been reposting the interview in kind of a edited version with spreading it

across a few episodes and they've framed it as herbalism against fascism.

And we talk about all the solidarity apothecary things.

We talk about how we can kind of amplify and build that kind of herbal solidarity

infrastructure.

How do we support people who are incarcerated? How do we support families who are being

ripped apart by ******* ICE and the prison system?

We talk about practical hubs to support the nervous system.

Like they talk.

They asked me about like the clinic in Calais,

so we talked about that.

Yeah, we even had a bit of an origin story around like anarchism and like developing my

politics around this stuff.

So anyway, it was like a ******* honor to be

interviewed.

Please check out the show called Planting Medicine.

I'll put a link in the show notes.

They're doing like a big fundraiser at the moment and giving away my book and other

things.

So yeah,

please support them, follow them on the old Instagram and all of that stuff.

But yeah, thanks for listening and I will be back really, really soon.

Okay, take care.

Bye.

Nicole. Welcome to Planting Medicine.

I'm so happy to have you here today.

You know, at Planting Medicine,

we've been big fans of your work for a long time and just your analysis of the place of

herbs in the world to support folks politically in so many different ways.

But for our listeners who don't know about your projects, can you us about yourself, your

work?

Sure. Well, thanks again for the, for the invitation,

long term listener and respect your show a lot and everything you're doing.

But yeah, I'm Nicole.

I live in the southwest of England and yeah, I

run a project called the Solidarity Apothecary.

And the kind of, yeah, its role in the world I guess is supporting people experiencing state

violence with herbal medicine.

And I know we're going to get into all the

things in a bit more detail, but just like the overview is,

yeah, I was in prison when I was like much, much younger and while I was in prison I

connected with plants and then many years later wrote a book called the Prisoner's

Herbal which is now distributed to people in prison for free, like all over the world.

Like a bunch of translated editions.

And yeah, that kind of like led to lots of other organizings.

So organizing support for people experiencing repression through one to one support and care

packages.

I have two clinics like a clinical practice and also like an anarchist free clinic called

the Black Flag Herbal Clinic.

Written a bunch of books, have a podcast as well.

And yeah, run kind of like collective group programs for people experiencing state

violence, like people experiencing burnout and state repression, like former prisoners,

prisoner family members.

And yeah, I feel like there's probably lots of other things.

Oh yeah, also help with a project that runs a mobile clinic for people on the move and

refugees in northern France, like on the French and British border.

And yeah, just lots of things, all the herbal medicine things.

But yeah, with this like big kind of state violence focus.

So you're prolific in your projects, so many projects.

And I want to talk,

I would love for our listeners to hear more about how these different projects work.

So we'll talk about that for sure too.

But it's so interesting.

It sounds like you were politicized actually

quite young even before you were incarcerated and then came to this whole different level of

politicization in terms of community organizing, mutual aid support through your

experiences supporting people with state violence.

Can you speak a little bit more to that? Where did your politics come from?

Yeah, I mean, I guess like context, like I was brought up by a amazing single mom

but on like income support, like state benefits.

So like this kind of like class analysis like came in quite strong, like just through life

experience and seeing like patriarchy and abusive men and all the things.

But I actually found like a Enrico Malatesta book when I was babysitting when I was 10

years old.

I mean I Should not have been babysitting at

that age for another kid.

But it was for my mom's friend in the 80s.

Yeah, exactly.

And I just, I remember just reading this book like from COVID to cover, like in a few hours

and just being like, wow.

Like this word describes everything for me in

terms of like this commitment to eradicating domination.

Like whether that, that's.

Yeah, like how we organize like our economies

and our labor or whether that's you know, like resisting like racism and fascism or fighting

for animal liberation or you know, like eco defense stuff.

Like, I just feel like the word like struck a chord with me and this was like just as the

Internet was like starting right, and we didn't have a computer.

But I wrote to the Anarchist Federation like when I was like 11 years old being like, like

I want to do stuff, like can I get involved?

And they sent me a little list of contacts and I like gave this guy a call and met up with

him and anyway, so the rest is history.

But yeah, I was definitely like politicized before prison and had supported people in

prison.

Like my first partner got sent down when I was

like 16 years old.

And yeah, like I was inside for like an animal liberation campaign.

So like, yeah, there was definitely all those politics there, but I think I hadn't come

across like ideas around prison abolition,

which was quite kind of like North American, I would say, like in terms of analysis and its

roots in people who are resisting slavery.

And yeah, it's quite specific, I would say to

the context in the so called us but it was interesting to me of being in this institution

and seeing so much like violence and horror and yeah,

poverty and just kind of like getting out of prison and just like making myself devoted to

just like,

yeah, I want to become the prison system's biggest enemy.

Like, I just want to like, you know, like I don't want anyone else to have to go through

that experience.

And yeah, prisoner family members and people leaving prison, like are experiencing so much

marginalization and oppression in all sorts of ways that you know, like that's, I guess been

what I've been devoted to ever since I got out is like, how do we respond to harm?

Like, how do we respond to like abuse and you know, like power dynamics and the state and

all of these things.

But yeah, like, how do we also connect with plants?

And I feel like it's plants that have sustained all of that kind of other organizing

and like interfacing with lots of like horrible stuff.

Yeah,

yeah.

You know, I so enjoy hearing this out Loud.

I spent a lot of time with your book yesterday, with your new book,

your new book, which is Herbalism and State Practical Herbal Medicine for Surviving State

Repression.

And it's so fun to get to hear,

you know, just in your words, in your voice, some of where you came from after reading

words on a page.

But I really did get the sense of the

offerings that you have in herbalism and organizing are really offerings from your

heart for your communities and that you have a very expansive sense of community,

also a very expansive sense of what justice means.

You know, that you're thinking about race, you're thinking about class, you're thinking

about misogyny, you're thinking about, you know, all of these different aspects that,

that impact how state repression works and also form state repression.

Well, I'm curious, first of all, can you just tell listeners a little bit about this book

and where this book came from and what it contains for you?

Sure. So people probably remember 2020 quite viscerally, but I put a call out for a

zine.

I never want to start a zine because it always

turns into a book, which is my problem.

So I put a call out of like, hey, I want to do this.

Like herbalism and State Violence SC and like a bunch of people emailed with like ideas and

stuff and things they'd already written.

And then obviously the pandemic started and then it was just like next level mutual aid,

staff organizing, like doing the clinic in France pretty much like back to back for like

what felt like years, like four years, I guess, four or five years.

And then I was like, I really want to finish this book.

It's been unfinished for too long.

So I, yeah, was actually pregnant and had a

very awful first six months of my pregnancy.

But as my like vomiting stopped, I was like, I am determined to finish this book.

So with the support of an amazing friend called Kez, who's like a trans feminist,

awesome writer and editor, she helped me and we just like bashed it out in like two months.

And then I was literally like eight months pregnant, like packing up these books in my

herb shed.

Like it was ridiculous.

But yeah.

And I wasn't expecting it to get so large.

I know you're gonna be giving it away, fundraising attempts, but it is a beast.

It's like 440 pages or something.

But yeah, I feel like it kind of captures all these different possibilities for herbalism.

Whether that's a focus on border violence and it shares a bunch of recipes from the Mobile

Herbal Clinic in Calais,

or whether it's about state repression.

And it shares recipes from like anti

repression care packages and you know, beautiful stories and poems and different

things from people who've like also supported people in prison or gone through repression

themselves.

And yeah, so it's kind of like looking at just like the tip of the iceberg in terms of state

violence and then looking at like practical herbal responses.

And the goal is just to like illuminate to the world of like this amazing potential of

herbalism and like how it's just like an amazing tool to support people,

you know, bodies, hearts, spirits, like all the things.

And yeah, just to give lots of examples of that to hopefully people can kind of, you

know, do similar things where they are.

Yeah, I felt it was a very practical book that it helps orient both to,

you know, the theory of what is state violence, what does that look like on the

ground?

But also what are all of the ways that we can bring plants into supporting people who are

experiencing all of the different forms of state violence.

But I'm wondering also, could you, could you just.

So we're all on the same page,

what is state violence?

Can you tell us about that?

That's a very big question.

And probably the bit of writing that was maybe

the most difficult because yeah, there's so many manifestations of like the state in

different ways.

And there's like a million and one amazing

authors and academics and anarchists and people that have analyzed that over time.

But I guess I, I see it as like the kind of the way that like society is structured to

kind of enable domination of like the many by the few.

And yeah, the state.

Like oh my God, it is such a side rant.

I'm not going to go down there.

But like,

yeah, to kind of like maintain such a hierarchical society, there needs to be like,

like some sort of structure that maintains that and that is generally like state the

state in different ways.

And those kind of hierarchies of inequality can only be maintained by violence pretty

much.

Like, you know, maybe there's other options in

other places.

But really like the way that this kind of like

origins of social organization have developed over time to kind of like create this like

state.

Like I think a quote in the book, like one author describes it as like the operating

system of.

It's kind of how our world is being shaped all

the time.

And yeah, in terms of the violence,

some people will experience that as a very visceral,

intimate thing that they'll experience regularly.

Maybe that's someone in their neighborhood who's abducted by ice.

I know in the so called US You've got the biggest prison population in the world,

over 2 million people.

So you've got millions of prisons and their

family members who know that impact of state violence so well in their bodies of that

trauma of separation and the trauma of visiting and all the abuse and violence that

happens in prison walls, like all of these things.

And yeah, but there are all these other manifestations of state violence which, yeah,

you do come up against if you're trying to change the system and challenge injustice and

things, but also you come up against it if you are a person who is like specifically and

intentionally targeted by the state,

which is like mostly racialized people,

you know, people without papers, like queer and trans communities,

you know, organizers and people that are like threats to social power.

Like all of these people are going to be like regularly interacting with like different

forms of state violence.

Does that answer the question? Is such a big question.

But it is a big question.

It is a big question.

I'll, you know,

I can reflect back also to our situation in the United States right now in the so called

United States on Turtle island,

which is part of the reason I wanted to do this show with you and to offer your book as a

thank you gift also is because of what we're experiencing here in the US right now.

A lot of us, we're calling this series of shows Herbs Against Fascism.

And a lot of folks really are experiencing a lot of concerning political repression that

does, you know, not just dip a toe into fascism, but is starting to kind of sprint

full speed into fascism.

And you know, some of the ways that we're seeing our community, as you were mentioning,

seeing our community impacted by policing by the police state and also just by the state,

the state regulating people's ability to exist safely, you know, is we're seeing the way that

ICE is impacting our communities.

I'm on some of the ICE Watch threads here in

the Bay Area and we've had some abductions these past weeks.

We see the ways that people who are doing anti ICE organizing are being targeted and some of

the deaths that have occurred this past winter of organizers.

We're also seeing a lot of repression of those who have been calling for a free Palestine for

a couple years now,

as well as targeting especially of the trans community, but the LGBTQ community broadly,

you know, and that some of these are more administrative forms of violence.

But a lot of these are really ways that harm is coming down strongly on people's heads

here,

enacted by the police state and by state repression in the United States.

So I'm curious when we're in these times of so much,

so much right wing backlash,

so much consolidation of power into the hands of the few,

you know, of which state repression is a fantastic tool to do that consolidation of

power,

where do you start supporting your communities?

What are the actions? What are the plants that are coming to you in

these times when things just feel.

Things feel bleak, things feel like they're

getting worse and becoming more fascist every day.

Yeah, I mean, it's again, it's like such a big question and I feel like what's

overwhelming people somehow is like the scale.

Like lots of things that are happening are

like actually not new.

Right. Like, they've been like.

I talk about it a little bit in the book of

like,

you know, like, I live in the UK and like, I feel like the British state has like perfected

the art of statecraft of like, how do we maintain our state with just enough violence

to keep things going, but not enough to trigger a rebellion,

while also exporting violence all over the world through colonialism and those colonial

initiatives, I guess, being the testing ground for state apparatus and the development of the

state.

And loads of people write about this Dylan

Rodriguez, maybe, you know,

academic who talks about.

And white supremacy and all the things.

And like,

I guess in a way, because these things aren't new, we can also look to like, what have we

been doing to respond to these things,

but like, how can they be like amplified and escalated?

So like, maybe there's like quite an effective, like,

you know, like Ice Watch initiative or something that's like actually protecting

people and is like one step ahead of like abductions and things.

And then it's like, how on earth do we scale that out so that every community is protecting

its people?

Right.

And I think it's a bit similar with herbalism and it's a bit why I created the book is like,

to just kind of like amplify things that have happened.

So like our mobile herbal clinic in Calais that is like serving people on, you know, on

the border.

Like, there's no reason why that couldn't be something that happens on every border.

Right.

Every border hotspot where people are

experiencing displacement and police violence and,

you know, like massive organized, like, hostile environment.

Like policies.

Like there could be herbalists working with

like every group there, like doing solidarity work who are, you know, attending to people's

wounds and trying to organise to help people get to safety and like all of these things and

like, you know, none of these things are kind of like new in the sense that,

you know, people have been, like, resisting since domination began.

Right.

Like, in all different ways.

And what can we learn from them? But yeah, in terms of herbalism, I feel like,

like,

if I can send, like, a beautiful herbal care package, a beautiful herbal care package to

support,

say, someone like, resisting ice and can offer that person and their tissues in their body

some nervine support or support with their blood pressure or support with their digestive

health, then that person can continue to, like, effectively resist and organize.

And maybe the effects of, like, like intense chronic stress doesn't push them to, like, the

depths of chronic illness quite as fast.

Right.

Because they've had that solidarity from plant medicines.

And I think, like, yeah, it's kind of a question of scale of, like, we do need these

sorts of initiatives, like, all over the world to,

you know, to combat, like, what is happening.

And obviously it's beyond just herbalism,

right? Like, like you mentioned, like, we need, like,

all of the things, not just the herbs.

But if it is, like, herbalists who are listening, then I do think every community has

its own needs.

Maybe there's a lot of houseless people with challenges around active addiction, and the

biggest thing you can be doing is harm reduction work.

Or maybe you are in the center of a city somewhere and you are just trying to monitor

police violence or do court support.

And I just feel like the book just brings a bunch of different examples to life.

And I think sometimes herbalists worry about what is their role.

But the longer I do this, the more I see how powerful it is of whether it's that one to one

person in the clinic who has struggled with pain for years and years and years, who now is

finding relief for the first time in 20 years or something,

or whether it's that refugee that we get to hospital because someone cares about him and

has advocated for him to get to hospital.

And maybe he's been given cough, cold and flu

pack to help him, like, to help prevent his respiratory infection from escalating.

Like, it's, you know, there's like a micro level of, like, how plants are really helping

people one to one.

But I feel like this state is all about,

like, dehumanizing people every step of the way.

And herbalism is somehow about humanizing people, if that makes sense.

It's about.

About actually you matter.

Like, your health matters.

Like caring for you matters.

Like, I care if you get deported.

I care if you get put in a cell.

I care if you get locked in a cage for two years.

Like, and that,

yeah, is kind of like,

yeah, the basis of my organizing really is, like, I just really care about people.

And one way I can express care is like, through.

Through herbs, because they're just like, the best.

As you know, too, herbs are the best.

I loved in the conclusion of the book, you called herbs your comrades or your

companieres.

You know,

so often here we have people coming on the air, you know, talking about how herbs are

their friends.

But I love the framing of herbs as our

comrades also,

which I think is true, you know,

in traditional ways and in the traditional teachings that I've received.

It's our job to show up for the plants, for their well being,

which means showing up for the whole world.

And it's a plant's jobs also to show up for us.

So we comrades, you know,

in a bidirectional way to each other.

Yeah, 100%.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's a couple other things that, you know, before we.

When we spoke, getting ready for this interview,

you kind of brought up that you feel like there's a mandate for herbalists here.

You know, that a lot of herbalists can have some hesitation about getting involved

politically,

but that there are these accessible ways to organize and make it happen.

And that's a lot of what I was hearing you speak about just now.

You know that as herbalists, we need to have our eyes open to the politics of the world and

be understanding what our place is,

the ways that we can participate, the ways that we can support.

The other thing that I've heard you speak about a couple of times and that I'd love to

hear more about is the mobile herbal clinic in Columbia,

because I think that's.

It's got a wonderful story.

It's an excellent model for structures that we might base or draw some inspiration upon to be

doing similar, but local projects elsewhere around the world.

So can you tell us about that mobile clinic?

Sure.

So just, I guess a little context.

Calais is like a town in the north of France, and people are kind of like, scattered across

that coastline.

And because there are no safe or legal routes

for people to apply for asylum,

apart from like, a couple of exceptions, like if you're from Ukraine or Hong Kong.

But for everyone else, they have to basically make, like, an incredibly dangerous,

like, journey across the sea.

Like, mostly in, like, small dinghies and,

like, quite dangerous boats.

Or they have to, yeah, cross via, like, lorries or get into trucks, things like this.

But either way, this, like, super dangerous.

And many, many people have died.

Like, I've met entire families who I've given

herbal support to one week, and then literally they've like, drowned, like with their baby,

like in the.

In the channel.

So it's like.

Yeah, it's very.

Yeah, it's.

It's its own little universe, if that makes sense of just kind of like horror,

which unfortunately is replicated like all over the.

All over Europe especially.

But I'm sure also borders like the US and

Mexico and things.

But anyway,

yeah, so healthcare access is challenging for people living in these, like, encampments

because they're constantly moved on by police.

They don't have access to regular, consistent,

like, clean water.

There's like, amazing initiatives giving out

food and clothing and things.

But. But yeah, life is super precarious and even the most basic of conditions will

escalate very quickly.

So Herbalist had been working in the area for a long time, but it wasn't until 2019 that

there was this decision to create our own organization that can offer consistent

solidarity, going every single month for the first week of the month.

And yeah, my old clinical supervisor, Melissa Ronaldson, was the founder of that.

And I just got involved as a kind of student at the beginning and ended up becoming the

field coordinator and doing all this logistical work and fundraising work and

picking up all the clinical things and getting trained by some amazing people and doctors and

things in herbal first aid.

But, yeah, for a trip, we will see sometimes 600 people over a week, week, sometimes more.

And most people are struggling with like, kind of upper respiratory infections, but also lots

of wounds and injuries and sprains.

But our main kind of critical role is like,

screening for people that need, like, higher definitive care.

So we take a lot of people to hospital,

we do a lot of advocacy with, like, we've got a team which is like a mix of herbalists from

the UK and like French doctors.

So there's like this really nice mix of like,

like being able to, like, use the privilege of the French doctor to, like, get care for

people.

And we make all of the medicine ourselves, like, other than maybe like 10% of it we might

buy, but, like,

everything is pretty much grown and made by hand by like, you know, a small group of

medicine makers, like, across the uk.

And all of that is like, yeah, just in defiance of this hostile environment that, you

know, the British and the state French are cooperating to implement against racialized

people.

So, yeah, so it's been going for a fair while.

I spent four years bouncing back and forth to

France until I had my son.

And since then I've had to just like, focus on

the UK side of it, like medicine making and fundraising and things.

But yeah, I think it's like an interesting project because it's like pretty phenomenal in

terms of like how many people we see and seeing how effective the medicines are, seeing

how loved and appreciated the medicines are, you know, seeing all the different like wound

protocols and yeah, it's.

Yeah, it's been a lot of graft over a lot of years.

But I do, like you said, I think it is like a really amazing example medicine of A really

amazing example of herbal medicine in practice.

I can see how excited you are about this project too, how much it means to you.

Light up talking about it.

Yeah, I mean I really miss going because I just felt like.

Yeah, it's so, so vicariously traumatizing that it's like you can't.

It's not that you want to be there, but it's just like.

It just feels surreal when you're not there because there's this like whole other world of

like pain and suffering that yeah, you're not kind of like engaged in like solidarity

around.

But I think I've learned since I got pregnant just like how vital all the behind the scenes

stuff is.

And like this is what I mean with herbalist,

it's like you don't have to be the one doing the dressings right.

Like somewhere frightening with the cops and all of this stuff.

Like you can be the person like growing the medicine and making the medicine and posting

it or providing support for people to, you know, offload on you or whatever like after

the trips.

And yeah, like there's a whole just possibility of infrastructure of solidarity

that herbalists can plug into.

And yeah, that stuff is like super, super, super important.

Yeah. I'm curious, what are a couple of your favorite herbal recipes or formulas or

other protocols from the mobile clinic?

Oh,

I mean,

I am like the cough syrup maker.

So like I make an amazing cough syrup which is

like a mix of a glycerite which I make in the slow cooker which contains elderberry,

fennel and cinnamon.

And then that is combined with like a marshmallow gloop with some rose water and

yeah, I'll make like thousands and thousands of liters of that basically.

And it is just like, it just goes down so well.

Like it's super nutritive, it's really soothing, it's really effective.

Like we'll see people that were like really considering taking to hospital because they're

so unwell and then within a couple of days they're just like,

you know, kind of bounce back pretty hard.

And like, we're all.

We was getting guys in France come up to us being like, have you got more of this?

Like, it's a super popular recipe.

There's the recipe for that in your book, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've included like nearly all of the clinic's

recipes.

And then, yeah, I guess in terms of like, wound stuff, like, we have a very effective

wound spray which is a mix of like calendula and myrrh tincture with some water.

And yeah, I,

for the last few years that I was there, I was like the.

Working on the external medicine station, so doing like all the wounds and the dressings

and stuff.

And yeah, I don't know how much of that wound

spray I've used in my life, but like, it is like, yeah, people will be really struggling

with like a secondary bacterial infection that they picked up in like Bulgaria or something

and they've had it for two months and nothing's shifted it.

And then, you know, we'll spray this spray and within like a couple of days, like, the

lesions are like so dramatically better and someone isn't in pain anymore and you know,

doesn't have a fever anymore.

And it's just like, wow, that calendula, eh, sneaky.

So strong.

Absolutely.

One other question about the mobile herb clinic, and this is,

what are some pro tips you have for people who might be considering starting a similar

project where they are?

Ooh, interesting.

I think even though I love planning, I'm such

a big planner,

I think that you actually have to build the systems as you go and like,

there's like a level of like research you can do, you know, like gauging people's needs and

you know, like learning from other projects that exist and experimenting with recipes and

like building your crew and stuff like this.

But like actually like the systems we use now,

like seven years later, we couldn't have developed those in that first year.

You know, like now we've got systems to track our inventory, to track how many people we're

seeing and their different presentations.

We've got referral forms, like, we've got medicine making infrastructure, like all over

the country and also Europe.

Like, we couldn't have done that on day one.

So I think the best thing is to kind of like, like get started and yeah, like develop those

systems as you go because,

yeah, you're inevitably going to be changing and growing and evolving and like, I think a

lot of herbalists learned that with like pandemic response stuff of like, you had to

just like, respond to People's needs, and those needs change.

And now how are we showing up for people with long Covid, for example, like, do you know

what I mean? So I think,

yeah, we maybe feel people can feel frightened of, like, I don't know enough, like,

blah, blah, blah.

But actually, it's like,

yeah, you kind of have to learn by doing as much as you need to, you know, be learning

your herbalism and your clinical safety and all of this stuff.

And I'm working on this big, like, frontline herbalism membership where I'm just gonna,

like,

put loads of these skills and resources and tools and templates and stuff that we've

developed, like, into something accessible for people so that it is easier to create projects

without, you know,

doing all the work that we've had to do.

But at the same time, like, every project,

every context is different.

And if we want people to,

you know, also have, like, an ecological practice, then the herbs that we use.

You know, I live in this amazing place where the hedgerows are filled with, like, elder and

hawthorn and rose, like, just coming out of my ears, Whereas someone else might be living in,

like, a desert or have,

like, different access to plants.

So,

yeah,

everything has to be kind of adapted and unique to your context.

Yeah. Does that make sense?

That does make sense.

Yeah.

But I appreciate that there's ways we can learn from path projects.

And also we need to be responsive to the environment and the new circumstances around

us all the time.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

We also see, you know, with some frequency, as I get anyways, and I think other herbalists

see out there calls for donations for herbs when there's different kinds, kind of

political organizing moments or,

you know, there's been an emergency or, you know, whatever it is.

And I'm wondering if you have recommendations for how people can thoughtfully donate herbs.

Right.

So in these moments, when there's a call for,

you know, something happened, please send us medicine.

How can people do that in a good way?

Good question.

Yeah. This stuff is tricky.

So I helped start this project called Ukraine herbal solidarity when the genocidal re

invasion started.

And,

yeah,

the Ukrainian herbalists involved put a call out for herbs.

And I think we learned a lot from that call out of, you can say,

oh, we need elderflower to make cough syrup or whatever, but someone can send you 10 grams of

elderflower, and someone else can send you 10 kilos.

Do you know what I mean?

So I think there's a little bit of odds bonus on the person putting the call out to be as

specific as possible about what is valuable to make life easier for people donating.

But I think, yeah, there's lots of challenges.

Like, we've definitely found it in Calais.

Like, how do you,

you know, like, have kind of quality control?

Do you know what I mean? Of, like, things.

I hate to say it, but things being, like, good enough to distribute, like, that's really

important for us.

And that's why we've actually got.

I don't want to say, like, centralized, but we've got, like, a handful of medicine makers

who take responsibility for quality.

And so, for example, I'll make the cough syrup, but I have a whole bunch of people that

come over, help me bottle it and strain it and do all this stuff.

And I think,

yeah, people need to take things like plant identification seriously and kind of good

manufacturing practices.

Not in the sense of, like,

complying with the state, but just in the sense of, like, do you know where things have

come from? Do you know where they're going?

Have you tracked your medicine making?

And this is stuff that I'm going to include in the membership,

but at the same time, like, I don't want to disenfranchise people that maybe don't have

all of that stuff in place because,

yeah, just, like, every project is different.

And, like, with this Black Flag Herbal Clinic,

like, it is valuable for us to be donated.

Maybe just one liter of tincture, do you know what I mean?

From a herbalist that's going to help a bunch of people.

Whereas with Ukraine, like, we distributed, like, 17,000 medicines within six months.

So it's like.

Like, we needed like.

Like tens of hundreds of bottles of tinctures.

So that's what you mean by, like, scale?

It gets challenging.

But, yeah, I think just, like, follow the

instructions of the person who's, like, requested it or the people and yeah, like,

label everything really well.

It sounds basic, but the barrier to me, like distributing a cream or something,

just a bottle of tincture that just says Mullen, you know, and.

Yeah, so label it, date it, name the grower, name the.

You know, where you've sourced it.

Yeah, all that stuff's, like, super valuable.

So I think I might have us switch topics.

You know, one of your areas of expertise really is providing herbs to people who are

incarcerated, people who are in prison,

which I've never done and which is something that, from my perspective, would be so

challenging now that I read the book that you just put out.

I really want to read your previous book also.

The Prisoner's Herbal, correct?

Mm, yeah.

Could you tell us a little bit about how you make plant medicine, how you get plant

medicine to people who are incarcerated, how you help people who are imprisoned actually be

able to connect with the plants.

So sadly, like, it's also impossible for me to like make medicine to send in,

which is why I basically wrote the Prisoner's Herbal, because I'll send you a copy.

But it's basically 10 super common plants that I worked with when I was in prison,

as well as how to work with things that you can find on the canteen, which is like, I

think it's called commissary in the us so things like salt and pepper or hot chili

sauce, stuff that like, like this.

Because I had so many friends and comrades inside with health issues.

And it just frustrated me that I couldn't support them.

So it had to be stuff that they could find and they could forage.

And then, yeah, I try as a herbalist to support people that are leaving prisons so

like, people can reach out and access care when they get out.

But yeah, unfortunately I also, just because of like strict controls and things like, can't

get things in.

Just imagine how busy I would be if I could.

But yeah, but this Prisoner's Herbal is like a resource for prisoners to,

you know, and I'm really aware that like every prison system is different in terms of context

of access to plants.

Like some prisons have actually quite

extensive gardens and like agricultural set up and other prisons, like, you know, like my

friend Kevan is like in solitary confinement and like,

he's probably like not seen a plant like in his,

like they call it a close supervision center, like a prison within a prison.

You know, he's probably not seen a plant for like 10 years.

Do you know what I mean? So every prisoner, not that he cares, he wrote

like a joke, a joke review of my book where he was like, prisoners are having a hard enough

time and now they have to learn about like herbal stuff just to like,

you know, take the mickey out of me.

But I lost it.

Unfortunately, I didn't publish it.

It would have been funny, but.

But yeah, so like every prisoner is different, but the book shares like other examples.

Like can you, you know, read about herbs in books?

Can you draw them? Like, when I was in prison, I slept with like

a dandelion root under my pillow.

And like, that was like just the nicest way to

like connect with the strength of that herb.

Because, you know, I couldn't exactly make loads of like lotions and potions the way I do

now.

But if you want to ask me about 50 uses of a Chamomile tea bag.

I'm.

You go.

So, yeah, I think, think, yeah, that that's basically what that book's tried to achieve,

is like, how do prisoners,

you know, cultivate even, like, the tiniest bit of autonomy over their health in a system

that is, like, opposing that, you know, like, even just to get toilet roll or, like, a

paracetamol is like an absolute nightmare.

So it's like, how can you, you know, like.

Yeah. Develop a little bit more autonomy, like, over your health?

Yeah.

What are some of the herbs in that book?

You know, I think I remember you saying, writing in the current book that, you know,

you could joke that the Prisoner's Herbal was, you know,

100 ways to use dandelion.

Yeah, it was all the babes, like, dandelion, nettle, chamomile, but, like,

different types of chamomile, like pineapple, weed and things that you can find.

Where I was, there was actually like, quite a large, like, rose garden, like, in the kind of

front section of the prison, like, conveniently where the visitors visit.

So I included rose in the book.

Chickweed,

plantain,

yarrow and mallow.

So, like, I.

Yeah, there was, like, a lot of mallow growing, like, in the gravel and stuff where I

was.

So that was, like, my first introduction to,

like, common mallow.

I didn't meet marshmallow until I got out,

and now I'm obsessed with marshmallow.

I have marshmallow root tattoo, too.

After making all this cough syrup with marshmallow root.

But,

yeah, and then the,

like, canteen commissary section, it's like, loads of different, like, spices and

condiments, like salt and pepper, and also, like, fruits and vegetables.

You know, like, you can get certain,

like, fruits in prison.

Or at least I could.

You could get, like, oranges and bananas, for example.

So I included as much information I could about some of the creative, medicinal ways you

can work with them.

Do you have, like.

Can you share a story or two about an unusual

way, like, a way that you would never use one of those medicines outside of prison?

Oh, what, you mean the plants or the, like, the fruits and the salt and stuff?

Anything, anything.

What's a way that you would draw on those, you

know, inside that you wouldn't necessarily think to recommend to somebody else outside?

Oh,

good question.

I mean, like,

I guess, like, the nice thing about the book is, like, a lot of the stuff is helpful people

on the outside.

So, like a chamomile tea bag, for example.

Like, you could,

yeah, have some kind of, like, you know, like, that prison environment is like a nightmare if

you have, like, a slightly atopic, like, allergic tendency.

Like, I did.

Like, I ended up having, like, anaphylaxis

plexus inside, which wasn't very fun because I was, like, locked in.

And anyway,

but,

like, I would get, like, hives and stuff.

And I think it was, you know, just this

horrific industrial diet, but also, like, all the cleaning products and, like, the roundup

and, you know, like, everything they're using.

So,

you know, I would often make, like,

as much chamomile tea as I could, like, in my flask and my little collection of hidden mugs

that I had, like, stolen from various places.

And then I would soak, like, a pillowcase in it and then apply that to my arms because it

wasn't possible to buy creams and stuff that I needed.

But I could put that kind of chamomile infusion on my body and that would be super

soothing and help heal up those hives.

And,

yeah, my baby had.

I shouldn't laugh because it's horrible, but

he had hand, foot and mouth recently from nursery,

like, last year.

And it was horrific.

Like, he couldn't, you know, like, he was in a

lot of pain and he couldn't sleep.

And for the first time since being in prison,

I soaked a bunch of, like, the Muslim cloths in chamomile tea, which was cool, obviously,

and just laid it over his body and like,

the, you know, the, like, strong rashes you get, and it was the thing that helped him

sleep.

So it was just like a nice, like, turn of events of I'm just nourishing this little

beautiful human with this same.

That had my back, like, nearly 20 years ago.

No, I mean, 15 years ago.

I can't remember.

A long time ago.

Yeah. Yeah, lovely.

It comes around.

Yeah.

This is also making me think of that there's a whole section in your book discussing.

Well, a couple of sections in different ways, but discussing support for family members and

loved ones of those who.

Who are incarcerated or who have been separated from their families and other ways,

you know,

the other ways that state violence works.

I've really been thinking about this these days, you know, of families who are awaiting

news of their family members who have been abducted by ICE or,

you know, who know their family members are in a detention center and that there is very

limited ability to be in contact, much less to control,

you know, this horrific system.

System that is disappearing people and often

putting their lives in harm's way.

What do you call on for those family members?

What do you reckon? Let's talk about herbs.

What herbs will you point people towards?

So, yeah,

I guess for context of,

like I said, my first boyfriend went to prison when I was 16,

and I've been involved in all sorts of prison assault solidarity organizing and had close

friends that I met in prison that I continued to support for a really long time, including

friends who've died inside.

And, like,

the overwhelming feeling on a daily basis for myself and for, like, thousands of people I've

met in and out with, the prison system is just like, grief,

like,

as much as, like, the prison system kind of, you know, destroys your physical health in

terms of your, you know, stress hormones and.

And like, the, you know, like, all the chronic

illness cascade that chronic stress generates in the body.

Like, the thing that I see all the time is just this, like, heartache and emotional pain.

And like, I know everyone has different herbs for that, but, like, for me, without a doubt,

it just always comes back to, like, rose.

And also hawthorn is, like, amazing for grief.

And, you know, these are two plants that are

like, super abundant where I am.

So it's like, very easy to make a lot of

medicine with with them.

But, yeah, I feel like prisoner families.

I have a prisoner family care package that

people can request, which has a nerve nourisher tea with skullcap and oat straw and

rose and chamomile.

And I have a rose petal soother.

And then there's some other immune support and

a blend for people doing prison visits.

It's that kind of immune,

kind of tonic action while that, like, you know, traveling a lot or driving far or, you

know, like, subjected to all the public transport viruses and all the things.

But, yeah, but the feedback I get all the time is, like, about this rose petal glycerite and

like, just how much it, like, hits for people of,

you know, because, like, the grief around supporting someone in prison is, like, very

invisibilized because,

like you said, people are being disappeared.

Like, and it is like, you know, completely

intended state tactic to remove people from our communities.

But, like,

that leaves like a gap, right? Like, maybe that's your partner who you

cuddled up with at night.

Like, maybe that's your child who you looked

after for years after years, you know, like, maybe that's a parent.

Like, maybe that's like a comrade that you've worked with closely for a decade.

Like, it could be anyone you have a strong relationship with.

And when that, like, relationship is, like, ruptured should.

You already spoke to the powerlessness.

But one of the Definitions of trauma is

literally an experience that's so overwhelming you can't really integrate it.

And I feel like grief in terms of losing people we love to the finality of death is

very overwhelming.

But you're kind of powerless if someone dies anyway, right?

You can't do anything.

Whereas when someone is like away,

quote unquote, in a prison,

like, you feel just as powerless because you're coming up against the violence of the

state, but like that person is still alive.

Right.

So it's like, it just creates like such an intense feeling of like, heartache.

And yeah, for me, like, Rose is really fantastic at helping people, like, release

that kind of emotional pain.

Helping them feel like they aren't alone, like

being reminded of like the joy and the beauty of the world.

Because I think when someone is in that kind of prison land,

it's very easy to fall into a place where all you witness is suffering on a daily basis and

you forget how amazing it is to be alive and how amazing plants are.

And I feel like Rose is just this beautiful gift of reminding you to keep your heart open

a bit, if that makes sense.

And that it's like the worst feeling in the

world to know that someone you love is in danger.

But like,

it's also the nicest feeling in the world and the most life changing experience to know what

it feels like to love someone.

And that doesn't have to just be like romantic relationship.

Right.

And I feel like this prison context for me, it

like taught me what love really means.

Means if that makes sense.

And I think, like,

I see,

I see that grief as like a gift of like,

I'm alive and I'm feeling something for someone.

And the state, no matter how much they've tried, haven't killed that, that, that love in

me for this, this other human, you know?

Yeah, but I think, yeah, I mean, like, I could just go to Rose like every day of the week for

everything, but.

But yeah, I feel like in my care packages,

like, Rose is like really the hub that most people feel that, like,

strengthening with, if that makes sense.

That rose glycerite sounds beautiful.

Yeah, it's dreamy.

It's dreamy.

Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine.

I. I can't.

I'm trying to.

I've had like rose honeys, but I'm asking

myself if I've ever had a rose glows.

Right.

But kind of I can just imagine what that would taste like and what a beautiful.

For me, the taste of rose, it really does.

It gets into my chest, it fills me up.

It's a special plant.

It really is a special plant that really

carries heart energy with it.

It's beautiful.

You know, as we're thinking about families of those who are incarcerated, disappeared by

ice, all of these things, I'm also just thinking about our greater communities who are

experiencing a lot of stress and distress right now.

Right.

In so many different ways.

I think, you know, we're living in a time where there is.

The ripples of oppression are reaching lots and lots and lots of people.

You know, whether that's regarding ice, whether that is the transphobia that's

happening on the big levels, whether it's the impacts of, you know, people's families being

affected by.

By war and genocide that is happening actively

in this time,

or whether it's

just

all of the ways that people are being really put through distressing

situations.

Like, we're in a bad economy.

Things are kind of rough out here.

On top of that, we have a lot of people who are really dedicating a lot of their energy to

resisting state repression, to resisting fascists.

What does all of this do to the nervous system?

And what are some of the herbs, you know, everybody out here should be drawing upon in

these times?

Ooh, big question.

Like,

I guess again for context, like,

I have, like, a body of work, like, in an online course, which no one is turned away

from for lack of funds, which is all about herbalism, PTSD, and traumatic stress.

So that goes into it in much more detail around how chronic stress affects the body and

the nervous system and how we need collective responses to that, not just individualized

responses.

But yeah, I also,

after two decades of organizing really, really hard against prison expansion and doing all

this prisoner support stuff and loads of caring responsibilities within my family and

everything,

I hit a really serious burnout.

And that was actually my family first sort of

writing context of writing this Overcoming Burnout book, which was like a series of blogs

documenting that kind of experience.

But,

yeah, I interact with a lot of people struggling with burnout, like, very regularly

in my sort of clinical practice and my solidarity work.

And I guess, like,

it sounds so simple, but, like, really prevention is better than curiosity.

Sure.

Like,

really take this seriously.

Like, you know, like, even a soldier who is,

like, you know, probably doing something horrifying in terms of colonial violence,

like, even soldiers have time off, right.

They rotate.

They're in the front for however long, and

then they are meant to step back and recover.

And I feel like organizers and people engaged

in resistance work.

You know, we all know it's like lifetimes of Fighting, right, and struggle and generations

of people organizing.

But it's like.

Like,

it is, like, dangerous, I guess, to be in this, like, fight or flight, like, sympathetic

dominant state for really long periods of time.

Because, like, the body is kind of like, just like the land and the ecosystems we're trying

to defend isn't an unlimited resource.

Right? Like, it is,

you know, you will start to trigger effects, whether that's,

you know, sleep disturbances or, you know, disruptions in the integrity of your gut

lining because of the volume of stress hormones in your blood, or whether it's, you

know, like, flashbacks and nightmares and things like this.

So, like, I think that people engaged in this work, like, they kind of need to treat their

bodies like athletes in the sense of, like, we need, like, as much good quality sleep as we

can.

We need good nutrition.

Like, we need nervous system support so that

our body is not, you know, just, like, rinsing its cortisol reserves like, every single day

of the week.

Like, we need,

you know, like, help for issues before they, you know, escalate.

And I think,

yeah, we also just need this, like, cultural change around what we demand of each other,

you know, Like, I'm all for, like, encouraging and inspiring action, but, like, I'm also very

serious about,

like,

burnout and compulsive workaholism and just sort of, like, exploitation and martyrdom of

people in terms of, like,

you know, like,

I definitely.

I wrote a blog called, like, herbalism as,

like, a rebellion against self neglect, where I really spoke to, like, my own experiences.

But I've seen this, like, echoed in movements loads in my life.

But, like,

I.

I didn't know who I was without organizing, like, and I didn't all of my, like, identity

and self worth was, like, wrapped up in, like, output.

And, like, what am I achieving as an organizer and, like, all of this.

This stuff.

And actually, it was like, the plants that taught me how to rest, you know, how to

observe.

How are my mucous membranes feeling in my

throat? You know, like, how am I sleeping?

Like, am I getting a cold? Like, you know, like, I feel like it was

plants that taught me how to rest.

You know, skull cap tea that made me realize

what, like, a parasympathetic state felt like of, like, oh, this is what rest and digest

feels like before I sleep.

You know, this is how.

How I don't have another nightmare for the

same night in, like, 10 years is I finally found a herb that can help shift that pattern.

And so I think more than ever, we need to work with, like, nervine herbs that have an

affinity for the nervous system.

So that even if it's just pockets of time in

the day, like there's some respite, you know, like there's a chance to just kind of rest and

digest.

And I don't mean like scrolling doom scrolling on your phone and just exposing yourself to

even more horror in the world.

I mean like genuinely,

you know, being as kind of like feeling in like a safe and social state as possible.

And like I said, you know, like tending to the basics, like it always comes back to the

basics like of nutrition and sleep and.

Yeah,

and I think that's.

Yeah, I think having a kind of approach that

like,

we're really in it for the long haul, you know, and I know it sounds terrifying, but we

really are at like the tip of the iceberg in terms of this stuff.

And like,

you know,

like trying to have that long term approach, I feel like, does gently shift something in the

body where it's like it really is a marathon and not a sprint.

Sorry, that was a big rant, but doesn't make sense.

No, I think that's wonderful.

And as you're speaking Telfife, I'm also

thinking about a part of the book where you categorize nerve ends in different ways and

how they can be differently helpful in supporting us again in all of this stress and

distress and resilience and burnout prevention or burnout response.

And it was very interesting to me.

I hadn't seen this kind of categorization of

nervines before, so I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about some of these

nervine categories and maybe an example of a nerve vine in each of them and why you pull on

that.

That herb.

Sure, with pleasure.

I did recently record a podcast series where I

went into each category in much more detail.

So folks can listen to that for the.

The detail.

But so I talk about like relaxant nervines and

I critique the word relax because I don't want people to think, oh,

I'm just putting my feet up.

It's actually more about how do you feel, like

safer in your body and, and able to, you know, think more clearly and feel a bit calmer.

And so, yeah, some of those herbs can help us access that state, but without like too much

sedation.

So the ones I really commonly work with are like chamomile and lemon balm.

Like hawthorn.

Yeah, just kind of like.

Yeah, just kind of like herbs that you can.

I mean, everyone is different.

I don't want to give, like, generic advice.

Like, obviously, you know,

people need to check out, like, medication interactions and if things are safe in

pregnancy and things.

But,

yeah, like, I feel like there are my kind of, like, bread and butter herbs that are like, my

go to nervous system support.

And then, yeah, I talk about cardiac nervines, which are herbs with an affinity for the heart

and the cardiovascular system.

So we've already spoken about rope grows.

Like, Hawthorne is just amazing for supporting, like, the whole cardiovasculature

system and also that kind of, like, emotional stuff around, like, pain and grief and has,

like, a real affinity with, you know, blood pressure.

And it's very cooling.

I'm a very hot person in terms of, like, a lot

of energy, a lot of, like, heat and in a kind of excited state.

So I need lots of, like, cooling her herbs, whereas other people need to be warmed up a

little bit.

But I find these cardiac nervines are often in the rose family and have this kind of cooling

relaxant, kind of antispasmodic effect.

And then I talk about sedative or hypnotic nerve lines, which can induce much stronger

states of sleep and stronger states of relaxation.

But,

yeah, there's lots of disclaimers around that.

Around that state.

Isn't all always, like, doesn't always feel, like, default safe for someone?

Like, anyway, I talk about that loads on my podcast.

But there I'm really working with herbs like skullcap or stronger herbs like wild lettuce

or even valerian, for example, which is actually quite stimulating for lots of people,

but for other people can have a really renowned sedative effect.

And then I talk about nerve tonics, which are just so valuable in our materia Medica in

terms of.

Of helping, like, restore the kind of structure and the functioning of the nervous

system.

And they have, like, a whole spectrum of

properties and values that aren't, like, specific.

But I guess some people would label them, like, adaptogens,

but I feel like there's, like, much more nuance there than that.

But, yeah, like, for example, skullcap can help with, like, the repair of the myelin

sheath, which is like the layer of flat.

The layer of fat around nerve cells.

And when that, you know, the nervous system needs fat to function.

So when we can kind of, like, have more healthy fats in our diet and apply things like

lavender oil, for example, which I make with olive oil from Palestine.

Like, it's so dreamy for the nervous system and can just help people sleep, like, so well.

Yeah. So anyway, so working with nerve tonics, maybe It's a stronger herb like Schisandra,

for example, that can help,

you know, kind of modulate the immune system responses and things.

Or.

Yeah, like herbs like milky oats would be a perfect example.

It's like super nourishing to the nervous system.

Yeah. And then finally there's like stimulating nervines, which are herbs that

have a more like stimulating effect, but not in a term, not like something like coffee or

matcha or something like that, but more like gentle stimulation.

Like, they're often circulatory stimulants and getting blood flow to the brain, for example.

They often have a broad spectrum antimicrobial action on the gut, which I think is super

interesting because I'm obsessed with microbiology and how gut health affects

general health.

And someone's gut health might be a big part of why they might feel a low mood or

depression, for example.

So these herbs can kind of help someone move

out of a frozen or shut down state.

So that's our kind of more warming herbs, like rosemary and thyme, for example.

So. Yeah, I don't know if that's enough of a little overview of how I organize nervines in

my head.

Yeah, I appreciate it.

I have a question that may be related or may not be related, which is in general,

as you are working with people in many different settings,

in more solidarity focused settings and in your own practice and across sending care

packages,

showing up for these different projects,

mobile projects or other solidarity projects.

What herb do you.

What herb are you calling upon most to support

people these days?

Ooh.

Do you know what? I really think it's Hawthorne,

and I think that is because it grows where I am.

But, like, I think because of its, like, cardiac affinity,

like, I don't know anyone who's not been affected by Covid, for example, example.

And I feel like lots of people have that kind of like cardiac response to Covid in terms of

like inflammation of the heart or they're having like, you know, like challenging, like

brain fog or kind of like pots,

like symptoms like orthostatic intolerance where they're like, struggling to stand up and

things.

And I feel like Hawthorne has just this like,

broad spectrum affinity with like, all of the cardiovascular cardiovasculature, like I

mentioned.

And also it makes an amazing glycerite.

So I can make it quite quickly within like 48

hours.

I can make absolutely amazing hawthorn berry

glycerite in my slow cookers, which is like another podcast episode in terms of, like,

this method I've developed over years of working with glycerin.

So, yeah,

I feel like Hawthorne is.

Yeah, very big in my practice.

And also, like, I ran this Hawthorne Group

program last year, which was, like,

for people experiencing state repression.

And we had group calls where we'd meet every

two weeks and just sort of offer like, emotional support to each other and talk about

certain things, like how repression had affected us.

And also we did, like, Hawthorne samples and things.

And then people had, like, one to one, like, more detailed, personalized support from me.

And it was just, like, one of the most beautiful offerings, like, I've ever organized

and was just such an honor.

And, yeah, I feel like that cemented my love

of Hawthorne, like, even more.

Yeah. As, like, a herb that is really holding it down in terms of, like, community, self

defense.

Yeah,

that sounds like so much fun to do a deep dive like that with Hawthorne in community.

That sounds really, really beautiful.

I love Hawthorne medicine so much, and it's

really one that I draw upon for both my physical heart and the physical hearts of my

patients and clients, but also my emotional heart.

You know, it's really, really beautiful.

Men medicine.

Yeah. And I hadn't really thought about it with that Covid perspective quite the way that

you had framed it.

So I appreciate that also.

And,

yeah, the ways that people post Covid also can tend towards some kind of, like, vascular

issues and clots and other things like that, too.

I think Hawthorne could be really supportive in that, too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, over here in California,

even though spring has kind of technically just started relatively recently with the way

that the weather goes here, we're already starting to pretend like it's summer,

and we're recording this before May Day.

But May Day is coming up in just a few days

here,

and I really hope that there's going to be a lot of turnout for May Day events here on the

West Coast.

But also I'm anticipating that this summer may be a summer where there's a lot of kind of

street resistance and showing up in beautiful, powerful ways en masse there.

I would love to hear from you.

Let's say, you know, we've got listeners going

to a protest, and we don't know if this protest is going to be, you know, a nice march

down the street or if there might be some police action at the protest or, you know,

or, you know, if there's going to be counter protestors.

We don't know exactly what's going to happen if our listeners are going to protest.

And they have time to pick up two or three little or one Products or herbs to take with

them.

What would you say they should throw in their bag?

Oh,

good question.

So I remember street medicing at this G20 mobilization and we were all like, everyone

was ready for like tear gas.

We had like a whole van of like water bottles

and all the like wound care stuff.

Nothing kicked off but like people were getting like sunburned like left, right and

center.

So now I'm like, just take sun lotion in your

kit like, because showing up for community health, it's not just about like pepper spray,

right.

It's also like who here is like struggling with dehydration?

Like who's you know, like really anxious around the police and like needs a bit of

support.

But yeah, in terms of that acute care, I like I mentioned the wound spray that we use in

Calais.

I love like rose water.

So like I. Yeah, like I. One of my most like visceral from France was a three year old girl

coming up to the clinic and she'd been pepper sprayed directly in her face by the police who

were trying to get her and her family and the other people off of this dinghy.

And you know, she'd been like screaming for like hours, like in pain.

And you know, they tried to wash out her eyes and we, you know, we obviously irrigated them

with water and things.

And then I gave her some rose water spray to take away and we give these little cotton pads

and then she cleaned her eyes with rose water and.

And it was like for the first time she just like came back to life as like a little kid.

And I'm sad because I have a two year old, he's nearly two.

He will be two on May day.

So I actually gave birth on May day, which

everyone thinks is hilarious.

After a 75 hour labor.

It's like he was just pushing for mayday, you know.

But yeah, like that rosewater is so cooling and wonderful for like an aftercare response

wants like you know, have a bottle of water be prepped with all the things.

But in terms of like aftercare, I think rose water is like fantastic for like inflamed

eyes,

a little bit of cheeky nervous system support for you know, like if you are doing like

police station support, things like that,

you know, like it could be a bottle of rose glycerite or hawthorn or whichever like

nervine herb you feel affinity with.

And then unfortunately I cannot go so on any mobilization without bruise ointment.

So we make a really great one.

And the recipes in the herbalism and state

violence book.

But it contains, like, St.

John's wort, comfrey, and arnica, or sometimes daisy oil instead of arnica, if we can harvest

enough,

as well as essential oils with lavender and wintergreen in soy wax.

And it's just so effective for sprains and strains and bruises and even just muscle pain

from walking around all day, you know, and, like, standing up all day, like, that's really

tough on people's bodies.

So.

Yeah. But if you want something a little bit less clinical, something like a lavender oil

is really wonderful, like, for sunburn and for, like, sore and aching muscles.

Also, if people are doing a lot of shouting, then, you know, like, things that are

soothing, like marshmallow and stuff for the throat.

Sorry, I know you said three things, but I've gone off of one.

But, yeah, don't forget your sun lotion.

It's hard.

It's hard to narrow it down.

I. I get it.

I. When I go out there, I, you know, I go to

my cabinet real quick, and I'm like, okay, let me just grab a couple things.

And I end up grabbing, like, 10 things at least.

Right.

Even if I'm not, you know, participating in any formal way, that I still

just want to be community and bring some things to help people in this time.

Also, you know, folks are moving with so many different emotions.

We've talked about the impacts on the nervous system.

We've talked about grief.

I'm curious about the anger and the rage out there, you know, which is a productive emotion

in a lot of ways, but it's one of those emotions that can kind of, you know, feed

positive action or sometimes can go kind of over the top and become harmful or

immobilizing or something else.

So what are some of the herbs that you point people towards?

Towards for anger, for rage?

Ooh.

I mean, I had a therapist who was an amazing comrade who supported me for years, and she

was like,

you just need to become a blowtorch.

Like, the problem isn't the fire.

The problem is how is that fire controlled and

directed.

And I've never forgotten that.

And I probably should get some sort of blowtorch tattoo.

But I think for me, it's like, yeah, navigating that pain and rage and using it,

like, as strategically as possible, possible without, you know, like, pathologizing

people's rage and things, which is, like, completely legit and needs to be expressed.

But, yeah, like, I think the kind of ongoing consequences of being, like, in a highly

activated state with a lot of, like, fight energy is it ultimately does lead to sort of

Dryness and depletion.

And so, yeah, I think like, accompanying that with like cooling and soothing herbs like I

mentioned, like marshmallow or lemon balm or rose or hawthorn.

They all have this kind of cooling effect,

not in a way of quelling your rage, but in a way of maintaining your rage for much longer,

if that makes sense.

So being able to support your nervous system

to keep going, to keep organizing, like we already mentioned.

But yeah, so that fire can stay going outward and not destroy us on the inside, if that

makes sense.

So,

um,

yeah, yeah, Good.

Plant allies.

Well, time flies and I think we're time together.

I want you to share some about how people can connect with you,

learn from you,

get involved in your projects.

Can you share a little bit about where folks

connect with you?

Sure.

So, yeah.

The. My website is solidarityapothecary.org

and from there you can find links to all the other things.

The Frontline Herbalism podcast, the old Instagram,

Solidarity Apothecary, the Mobile Herbal Clinic Calais,

and the Black Flag Herbal Clinic, this anarchist free clinic.

If people would, like, value some kind of free herbal support from me and the crew, then, you

know, we support people from all over the world, so don't hesitate to reach out.

And likewise, the herbal care packages get posted in all directions all over the world.

So if you would value one of them for you or your comrades, then please, like, request one.

And yeah, like, the book is already published and available on my website, but PM Press are

like re.

Re issuing it and they will do probably a much

better job at distributing it and promoting it, but I think their timeline is they're

planning to launch it this winter.

So keep your.

Yeah, keep your eyes peeled for that.

Well, thank you so much for all this beautiful work you're doing.

Thank you for being here with us.

It was really, really good of you to do this.

And I think that a lot of people will derive a lot of strength, strength and good information

from this interview.

So thank you.

Oh, pleasure, pleasure.

Thanks so much again, thanks so much for

listening to the Frontline Herbalism podcast.

You can find the transcript, the links, all

the resources from the show@solidarityapothecary.org podcast.