This episode shares an interview with Nicole Rose on the Sage's Cabin Podcast, hosted by Rox Madeira. We talk about herbal livelihoods, solidarity work and navigating trauma with herbalism.

Links & resources from this episode

• The Sage's Cabin Podcast - https://roxmadeira.com/podcast/
• Rox Madeira's website - https://www.roxmadeira.com/
• Interview with Rox - https://solidarityapothecary.org/the-frontline-herbalism-podcast/62-solidarity-medicine-making-with-rox-madeira/
• Herbalism, PTSD and Traumatic Stress Course - https://solidarityapothecary.org/herbalismandptsdcourse/
• Practical Medicine Making Intensive - https://solidarityapothecary.org/practical-medicine-making-intensive/
• Making Herbal Medicine with Glycerine workshop, use the code BLACKFLAG for 50% off as a fundraiser for the Black Flag Herbal Clinic - https://solidarityapothecary.org/product/glycerinecourse/

Find them all at solidarityapothecary.org/podcast/

Support the show

Music from Sole & DJ Pain – Battle of Humans | Plant illustrations by @amani_writes | In solidarity, please subscribe, rate & review this podcast wherever you listen.

Welcome to the Frontline Herbalism Podcast with

your host, Nicole Rose from the Solidarity Apothecary.

This is your place for all things plants and liberation.

Let's get started.

Hello.

Welcome back to the Frontline Herbalism Podcast.

I'm sorry for ghosting you again.

Just the same excuse really of like feeling very overwhelmed with one to one work,

which I absolutely adore.

But yeah, it is definitely a big workload.

I've realized I've got like 60 people I'm

supporting, which is a little bit wild considering that I only get like 12 hours of

childcare a week paid by the state.

Like I am eligible, eligible for more.

But like I want to be with my baby.

Do you know what I mean? He's only two years old, so he just does like

four mornings a week.

Anyway,

just a couple of updates.

So I have decided to teach the Practical Medicine Making intensive for the third time

this, this year.

I normally only teach it twice,

but the last two courses have been so amazing.

Like such awesome humans and so joyful to

teach that I thought, right, let's try and make another one happen.

And obviously, you know, it's like a

kind of income boost.

I've been in a little bit of a pickle financially, not gonna lie.

I just, I tend to start stuff with this like, prototype of like, let's just do it and then

see and we can evaluate and change.

And I think I started the Black FL Herbal

Clinic, like the Anarchist Free Clinic without thinking.

Oh, I've always supported people for years unpaid, like, it'll be fine.

But actually just like completely underestimated the cost of providing kind of

like ongoing herbal support to people and like just, you know, new costs like the paying like

my neighbor to help look after my child so I can do calls in the afternoon,

etc. Etc. So anyway,

there is a Black Flag Herbal Clinic fundraiser at the moment.

I haven't put it on Instagram,

what am I like,

but I've put it on my newsletter list.

So basically my Making Herbal Medicine with Glycerin workshop, which is ******* awesome,

FYI goes into loads of details about what glycerin is, some of the sustainability stuff,

its medicinal properties, which herbal constituents do really well in glycerin and

like the two methods that I use, like the slow cooker warm method as I call it,

and like cold infusing certain herbs and which herbs do and don't like that method anyway,

it's absolutely banging.

It's normally 40 quid and you with the code

Black Flag, all cap, lock caps, locks cap,

all capital letters can get it for just £20, like, and 100 of that money will be ring

fenced for the Black Flag Herbal Clinic for all the postage costs and the herb costs and

stuff.

So.

Yeah,

but you know, the Black Flag crew are like absolute bunch of babes and we've got like a

long way to go in terms of like developing systems and doing fundraisers and we've been

talking about like, how do we decentralize, like, care and you know, the end goal has

always been to create like global infrastructure for,

you know, like herbal solidarity,

especially within the kind of anarchist movement.

So watch this space.

But yeah, for now, the practical medicine making course, literally like a

quarter, no, a third, I think a third of

the places have gone already from one

email to my list.

I haven't put it on Instagram yet, so.

So if you want to get on that, I would sign up right away.

There are like payment plans available at checkout.

I'm not sure about solidarity places for this round simply because there's shitloads of

people who applied last time who I wasn't able to support because it's like a limited numbers

course.

So I might kind of allocate things to them anyway.

I'm still trying to figure it out.

But you know, email, if it's something you're

interested in and we can always add you to that waiting list, you can fill in the form,

like applying for the solidary places and then you'll be kind of like top of the queue for

next year,

if that makes sense.

But yeah, today the episode, the podcast episode is actually a reshare of an interview

I did on the Sage's Cabin podcast.

So if you're into herbal medicine, check it out.

It's a podcast run by my friend Rox Madeira, and she's a Scottish Iranian herbalist.

Been involved in the mobile Herbal Clinic Calais for like donkey's years.

And yeah, it's just all round.

Awesome human.

I interviewed her on the show a year or so ago where we talked all about like solidarity,

medicine making and all the stuff that her workers co op do up in Scotland.

So yeah, please check that out if you're interested and check out her podcast.

And I'm gonna be back soon, I promise.

I'm gonna do an episode all about how I work

with people one to one and why I make certain decisions and how that's structured in case

you're interested in herbal support.

And then baby, I have like planned a whole series all about medicine making.

It's gon epic.

I'M gonna batch it in advance and then pass it

to an amazing friend who helps me with media stuff and just like get it scheduled.

That's the.

That's the plan.

So, yeah, I'm going to be talking all about what makes medicine potent, how to make

tinctures, how to make glycerites, how to make infused oils.

Yeah, I just thought it's the summer, it's like medicine making season.

And then after that, yeah, we'll come straight back in with all their kind of like trauma

content with the herbalism, PTSD and traumatic stre course, which, by the way, you can join

the wait list for now.

And hopefully dotted between now and then, we'll have some more interviews because I

don't know if you've checked out the last interview with Bonnie from Ravenson

Apothecary, but it was like absolutely epic.

And again, it's on my to do

list to put out some graphics with some of the quotes.

Yeah, it literally gave me goosebumps.

I'm still, I still think about it all the

time.

And yeah, I think if you feel like aligned

with the Solidarity Apothecary and like, all the stuff that, like, I'm doing and like,

people in other herbal projects are doing, I think you'll really love that episode a lot.

So, yeah.

So please check that out.

All right.

I will be back soon.

Thanks for listening.

Take care.

Hello and welcome to the Sages Cabin.

I'm your host, Rox Madeira.

I'm a historical and community herbalist researching medieval and early modern healing

traditions, women's ancestral knowledge, and the role of plants in restoration,

memory and belonging after rupture.

So I post most of my work on Patreon.

I do a lot of stuff in person,

like women's circles,

foraging walks and restore your core.

So if you want to connect with me, you can check out my website,

rocksmadira.com a lot of my community work happens under Movement in Time where we

support marginalized communities through herbal medicine.

So you can check that [email protected] and then I also do live herbal reenactment

with the Historical herbalists and so you can check us out.

We do lots of events across the country and you can see all our events on

historicalherbalists.com if you enjoy the podcast.

I really appreciate it.

If you like, share and subscribe and

considering becoming a subscribe patron on Patreon, which is under the Wise Herbal Ways

banner.

In today's podcast, I'm speaking with Nicole Rose from Solidarity Apothecary.

She's Somebody who I've been wanting to get on podcast for a while.

She has inspired a lot of the work I do with Movement in Time.

She has some really good resources out there.

So check her out.

It was a really nice to finally chat to her, get her on.

I work with her with on the Mobile Herbal Clinic Calais.

So I hope you really enjoy the podcast and get a little help it.

So yeah, I mean I wanted to get you on the podcast for ages

and finally they managed to.

To do it

to start with.

It would be nice if you could introduce yourself in your own words and just like say

what you do and everything.

Sure.

Yes. I'm Nicole.

I.

I'm an anarchist and a herbalist and I live in the southwest of England.

Very far away from you unfortunately.

But yeah, I run a project called the Solidarity Apothecary.

So I focus as a herbalist on supporting people who experience state violence.

And that mostly is like organizer types experiencing state repression.

Refugees and people on the move, for example, were both involved in this project, Mobile

Herbal Clinic Calais.

Sadly not going there very often now because of the baby, but have been quite heavily

involved for a long time.

And I get books to prisoners around the world.

Wrote a book called the Prisoner's Herbal that it's like written specifically for people

inside.

And I also send kind of care packages to

people like prisoner families and people going through repression and yeah, all the things

like that.

And I also have like an online course which sort of funds everything which is about

herbalism and PTSD and traumatic stress.

So yeah, lots of.

Lots of hats.

But the main threads are just.

Yeah, supporting people experiencing state

violence and different forms of trauma with herbal medicine.

Yeah. I was looking at your site.

You're doing so much stuff.

I feel like you seem to be doing so much more than you were before as well.

Like how are you managing with.

Oh really?

I mean I think I did most of the like groundwork for everything before having a

baby.

So now I'm just kind of in like systems mode.

Oh yeah.

I also have a clinical practice and have

started this anarchist free clinic called Black Flag Herbal Clinic that I forgot to

mention.

Yeah, it's a hustle in it.

Like I only have like 12 hours of nursery time

a week and a bit of help in the afternoons on the odd day.

So.

And then nap time, bedtime,

like a bit of graft then.

But yeah, it's definitely.

It's definitely a lot.

I'd love to pick your brain sometime about how

you cope with motherhood and all this stuff because You.

How many kids have you got?

You've got three.

Whoa. ****** hell.

It's intense.

And I think I said to you the last time I spoke to you when I was on your podcast that I

found the transition quite difficult,

like,

because I kind of gave up a lot of stuff and then kind of took a whole break because I was

just like, oh, my God,

children.

Yeah.

I cannot imagine.

I would love to have more kids one day if I

ever met someone else.

But, like, oh, my God, I cannot imagine more

than one little human needing me.

I think it would blow my mind.

Now starting to get to the point where some of them.

So they can do a bit by themselves.

I say that, but then they're always like,

mommy, Mommy.

But,

yeah, at least they've stopped fighting, so that's good.

How old are they?

They are nine, seven and four.

Wow.

Okay.

Big kids.

Yeah. So I think I want to unpack kind of all of that stuff that you've said.

So one,

I would like to was wondering how did Solidarity Post Creek kind of come about in

the first place?

And you've got quite a big presence online and stuff.

And I was.

So I was wondering, like, for kind of any

budding herbalists and stuff that are watching, how did you kind of develop the kind

of business side of what you're doing?

Oh, oh, that's.

I've not been asked that before.

So, yeah, I guess the kind of, like,

brief origin story is studying herbal medicine in prison when I was a prisoner for this

animal liberation campaign,

sorry to swear, years ago, when I was 21.

And then I was a sort of DIY home herbalist, just learning everything, reading everything,

listening to podcasts, going to workshops, practicing, putting everything in a jar

possible for a really long time.

And I loved that.

And then I finally found, like, a herbal

school that,

like, didn't kind of prejudice me because of my background and enabled me to study with

them.

And then that clinical training just, like,

completely changed my life.

And I just wanted to do all the herbal things

all the time,

but I'd already started supporting people,

like different comrades and different groups and stuff, just like, informally with herbal

medicine.

And then I just kept seeing it everywhere.

Everyone being burnt out, everyone being depleted, vast amounts of chronic illness.

I got really sick myself,

and that was like a whole other journey.

And I just kind of, like, wanted to create a

structure that could support people who wanted to support their health, but, like, didn't

want to do it in a, like, really de.

Politicized way.

They wanted to kind of acknowledge, like, the

Structural conditions that were contributing to them being sick.

Whether that was like racism or class or poverty or you know, sexism or transphobia,

like all of these things that affect our bodies.

So yeah, so it just kind of like went from there really, of starting to do that like

informally and then do my clinical training and yeah, just like wanting this livelihood

from it.

But yeah, the business side I guess,

like,

I think it's actually good to learn from people who thrive in this world, AKA white

men.

And I listen to a lot of like podcasts from these like business coaches that were like,

you know, talking about like digital products and like, how do you like build an audience?

And I created this online workshop about glycerin and it was like a test drive and I

made like a thousand pounds from selling this workshop online with one Instagram post.

And then I was like,

oh my God, like this is a game changer.

Like that would have taken me like so many one

to one consultations to make that money.

So then I decided, right, I'm going to do like a proper online course.

And like, yeah, that was just like life changing.

And again like listening to all this like business advice.

So like I focused heavily on like building my newsletter and just like encouraging people to

subscribe to that and get updates via that.

My books like the Prisoner's Herbal and Overcoming Burnout, like they were mostly

distributed by sort of like anarchist, kind of like DIY publishers.

But I feel like that built up quite a big support base as well.

And then starting my own podcast was like another way of building affinity with people

and interviewing different people.

And yeah, and then I've just created a model where like twice a year I have my online

course, I build up that waiting list and then I open it for access a couple of times a year

for like two weeks, promote it really heavily on social media.

And then that sort of raises enough money to keep the apothecary going for like six months

until the next course launch.

So yeah, but then I also make money from my clinical practice and I don't know if that

like stuff is like interesting to people, but like I spent a long time experimenting of how

the hell to make that financially sustainable.

And I think lots of herbalists are wildly undercutting themselves and not figuring out

actually how time consuming it is to be a herbalist, to listen to someone and all their

health issues, to do research, to put together their herbal recommendations, to make all the

medicine, to post it out.

So I offer like five month packages because I was sort of tired of people reaching out for

support,

giving them a lot of energy and attention and then not hearing from them because they didn't

want to pay for further hurts because they didn't have any money.

So now I offer like payment plans and we work together for like five months.

And it means that like you know, someone actually goes from having like crippling

endometriosis to actually being able to function and like sleeping well and being in

less pain and like they don't even ask for like refills anymore for their pain blend

because their inflammation has like like shifted so much.

So yeah.

So I don't know if I've like gone on some

tangents but like no,

because I think that's, that's always the hard thing, isn't it?

Trying to decide where you kind of position yourself price wise.

Because it's almost people I think, I think I said I've told somebody else about this but

like you,

nobody ever wants to say how much they charge and anything and everybody's very.

And you don't want to overcharge and then you don't want to undercharge.

So it's very hard to kind of price yourself I think.

Yeah. And like I'm like a real,

I'm like a real like systems number person so I like like costing things out and like

working it out and I think like yeah, I think the challenge is like herbalists have such

huge hearts and they want to support people.

But like I talk about this with like class stuff.

It's like the person that has like no money because of you know like being on disability

benefit or having like a few kids and like hardly any financial support or whatever,

giving them a 10 pound discount on a course that's 120 quid or something isn't going to

help them.

Whereas for someone that's like maybe a bit

more middle class or like financially resourced,

like they can often just afford more than we charge them if that makes sense.

So and I think people that have the shared values like they will pay like a higher rate.

So like one of my PTSD course is like no one turned away flak of funds, like anyone can

join that.

But like people do pay like the resource rate, you know, and I specify like if you, you know,

own several houses or you have like inherited wealth that you're living from, then like

yeah, you should pay more.

And I think like that sliding scale is a bit of a like not a dance but it's like

challenging to navigate.

But ultimately like I'm able to like offer a Lot of, like, unpaid support to people because

I'm have become comfortable with charging other people more.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, I know that I. We try doing, like, the sliding scale, and I did look at yours,

because it.

Did you have specifics about what people who.

Because I have found people being quite confused by it and being like, oh, just tell

me how much to charge.

And we've tried to have donation things to send, things that people are very much like,

kind of.

I don't know what to give you.

Just tell me what price should I give you?

Yeah,

yeah, no, definitely.

And I think, like,

people,

like,

because capitalism generates, like, scarcity for everyone,

even people that have, like, millions and millions of pounds will feel like they don't

have enough money and will, you know, like, make certain decisions,

you know, spend like, three hours researching something to save ten pounds or whatever.

So I think, like, taking a bit of that emotionality out and being like,

you know, this, this, and this.

But also just like, a lot of people, like, you

know, like, I grew up on, like, benefits and stuff with a single mom, and, like, I hated

feeling like a charity case.

Like, I love paying people.

Like, you know, like, the person that helps

with my son, like, I pay her, like, way more than, like, any, like, you know, other paid,

like,

childminders advertise and stuff for.

Because I'm like, I want to value your labor.

Yeah.

And so it's like,

sorry, I lost my thread then.

But, like, yeah, like, I think people like

being able to pay, like, over several months or, like, a payment plan or, like, because

they don't.

It's not always empowering to, like, receive something for free, if that makes sense.

Yeah, no, totally.

Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I used to do a lot of massage with people who were, like, really struggling, and

they were kind of through this kind of mental health charity, and they would get it for

free, but then they would try and give me money and I'd be like,

I'm getting paid already, you know, and they did, like, be sneaking money into my bag and

stuff.

I'd leave and I'd be like, oh, it's like,

that was always nice.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

I know my dad does taxi driving, and he kind of always said that the people who have got

the least amount of money always tipped him more than anybody who got a lot.

Yeah, 100. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, without a doubt.

And like, I. Yeah, I see that all the time in my work as well.

And I'm probably, like, that sort of person too, but I think I Don't know, like if anyone,

any herbalist is like interested in starting a business.

Like, I do think, like you think that you have to learn a lot about like gut health and this

and this and you do.

But actually you really have to learn about

like money and people's relationship to money and like, you know, like,

what's a pension? And like, do you know what I mean?

Like all this stuff that you need to think about.

It's like a self employed person.

Yeah, I. Stuff that nobody wants to think about and nobody thinks about is what they

have to think about, you know? Yeah.

Everything around it, marketing and everything as well, I think is a huge thing.

Like selling yourself and stuff.

Yeah. I mean, like, don't get me started on the horrors of social media.

So let's.

Let's go into a different topic.

Let's talk about herbs.

Maybe we could.

So I started doing your herbs for ptsd, traumatic stress.

I've been here since the beginning of it, I have to say,

but I'm enjoying it.

But yeah, I wonder if we could talk about some

specific herbs.

Just any that you could think.

I mean, obviously there's lots, lots of

nuance, obviously, I know that as well.

But maybe just some specific things that

people could maybe start using or implementing,

like gateway herbs, I guess.

Ooh.

So like, my course looks at like different categories of like nervines, which are herbs

with an affinity for the nervous system.

And they're sort of, I guess the ones that we maybe like take for granted are like the

relaxant nervines.

So the herbs that don't necessarily make you

like, relax, as in, like sit and put your feet up, but they just reduce the activation of the

sympathetic nervous system, which is like our kind of fight or flight,

like activated state.

And I think people maybe don't realize how much their body is in that state, like

frequently.

And so anything we can do to kind of like gently tone down that activation is like very

valuable.

So that's why herbs like chamomile are like so underrated.

Because everyone just thinks chamomile, like, it's boring.

You can like buy it in any coffee shop.

But like a really high quality,

delicious chamomile tea like, will ****** knock me for six, do you know what I mean?

Like, I will want to just like sit down and like, not, you know, not carry on working.

But I really think like, certain herbs like chamomile or lavender or if you can access

them, like herbs like lemon balm, like having them through the day are just like Such

amazing resources for the nervous system.

They're just like, reducing the energy that the body is spending on potentially being

triggered or distressed or being, you know, hypervigilant or.

Yeah.

So I try.

And in my care packages I make like a,

A glycerite,

which is like herbal medicine in glycerin.

And it's like hawthorn berry,

lemon balm and chamomile.

It's just that little triplet and you can just like swig it through the day.

And I've had people that just have messaged me being like, what on earth is in this?

Like, it's just.

I've never felt like this before because it's

just got that kind of like,

calming effect on like, the blood vessels and like, relieving tension and like soothing like

digestive challenges that we get often.

Like, that's where people feel their stress.

So, you know, it can just like settle down an anxious tummy.

So. Yeah, so those are like three of my, my go tos that I'm like,

you know, it's rare that I'd have a client that I wouldn't give them to.

Yeah. I think,

because I think when I messaged you, I was talking about, like, I've been in this kind of

free state with this kind of the, with the war in Iran and everything.

And it's like something that I've been.

It's like I feel like I've been waiting to

happen the whole of my life, you know,

with all like the kind of concert propaganda and everything.

And I think the herbs that have helped me that I found helpful has been a combination of like

a rose glycerin with oat straw and then some Schisandra as well.

But if I, when.

If I have them, like together.

Shazanda.

This is so.

It's so nice when it's by itself, but then when you have it after something sweet,

I'm always like, oh, don't do that because it's so sour.

Yeah, yeah.

I think they've helped me quite a lot.

How. Do you mind sharing more about, like, how you've been feeling if you want to,

like, how that's been?

Oh, I've just been in this kind of like,

freeze.

Yeah, that's the basic holy seat.

So I haven't been able to, like, I don't, I don't.

I've been stuck at, like,

to do anything.

Like, normally I'm kind of like, I have.

There's a lot of things I want to do and I want to do this and that and then I'M kind of

being like, no, I just need to look at the news and I have to see what was going on.

And we haven't heard from family, so it's like, well, how are they doing thinking about

all this kind of stuff.

And then one thing I. Then I, I made a.

Some teas which then I translated into like Persian and into Arabic to send for like

Lebanese communities in Arabic and Persian communities,

asylum seekers.

And that site to make me feel a bit better

because I felt like I was actually doing something again, you know.

And like,

yeah, I think I've just struggled with putting anything online.

I'm kind of.

I think the diaspora has been the difficult

thing.

I'm kind of watching them and thinking,

I don't know, it's.

There's so.

There's so many tensions and stuff and you kind of, you don't want to almost like,

because I'm only half Iranian, it's.

There's this kind of thing of like, oh, well,

you're.

You can't really speak for us and everything.

And it's like, who's the real Iranian?

And you know,

that's been all trying to navigate through.

That's been kind of.

Yeah.

Difficult.

Yeah, no, I'm.

I can't.

Yeah, I think like,

yeah,

like, I think the freeze response is like one of the most like, interesting, kind of like

genius, but also like full on nervous system responses of like,

it's like, especially when there's like an issue that's like not resolved because it's

like systemic.

Right.

So it's like this constant hyper vigilance of like, you know, this like terrifying thing

might happen or this might happen or this might happen.

And it's like, what does the body do with that much like overwhelm and it normally just can't

do much.

Hence the like, you know, shut down kind of.

And I think herbs can like,

can

help shift that state.

If they can help someone like move into like feeling a bit more safe.

Like if they can like forage something and they're like, okay, I'm not in like immediate

danger.

I can do this and this.

But that's when like, that's why with all, everything I do, it always has to come back to

like the political stuff.

Because it's like,

how do you feel safe if like this is happening?

Do you know what I mean? Or people you love are like threatened.

And it's like,

that's why it can't just be herbalism.

It has to be all the other.

Solidarity and the organizing and the resistance.

And stuff.

Because,

yeah, you know, underpins it all, doesn't it? Because.

Yeah, it's kind of the background of everything.

No, I was gonna say my sister's just been doing this,

like, international development course and.

And she's kind of like really into it, but

she's come away being like, it's all terrible.

Everything's so bad.

She's like.

And now.

So she's now also in another freeze with like.

Well, I don't know what to do to, like, make things,

to change things, because right from the very core of it, you know, it's all broken.

Mm.

I think, like,

yeah, like, that balance, like, that's why I love the apothecary so much or like, why I

love, like that one to one clinical work so much is because,

like, I might not be able to stop this, this or this, you know, whether that's like

deforestation for some ******* coal mine in Germany or,

you know, like genocide in Gaza or, like, you know, but I can, for example, have like a one

to one call with someone who's like, you know, organizing loads of mutual aid for, like,

their family in Gaza and, like,

is not sleeping very well.

And I can get them, like, loads of lavender

oil in the post, which is like infused in olive oil from the West Bank.

And then, you know, they can text me and be like, for the first time since October, I've,

like, slept and it's like,

like, okay, I've not like, stopped like this like, horrible, like, oppressive state, but

I've, like, somehow helped that one person in that, like, moment.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, I think that's sometimes the thing, isn't it, that you feel like you're not doing

enough and.

But it's like even like just taking it back

and just being like, well, if I help like one or two people who then go and help one or two

people who help one or two people,

it becomes enough.

Yeah. And just seeing these, like, manifestations, like, all the time of, like,

what does this, like, chronic stress look like, you know, like.

And everyone has like, a different manifestation of it, of whether it's like

loads of gut issues or, you know, loads of panic attacks and nightmares or, you know,

like, whatever.

And it's kind of like,

yeah, you're.

I feel like with my clinics especially, like, I'm constantly seeing the, like,

manifestations of all these other forms of oppression just show up in someone's body and

it's like the thing that can meet them is like, the herbs, if that makes sense.

Like, I can't take away that person's,

like, trauma or what they've been through on their journey to Europe, for example.

But I can,

you know, like, dress their feet or, like, wash their feet and, you know, dress their

wounds.

And, like, especially this work in France,

it's like,

if it does feel like a sticking plaster, because you are literally sticking plasters on

people, but at the same time, it's like, well,

if you weren't there, then that person,

you know, their wounds get.

Might get even more infected and they might

get sepsis and they might not make it, or, like.

Do you know what I mean? So it's kind of like,

yeah, just this balance all the time of, like, the amazing possibility with herbal medicine

and then just, like, coming up against these limits of just, like, how screwed up the world

is and how, like, powerless we all feel.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Yeah. Actually, that's one of the things I wanted to ask you about was the mobile herbal

clinic in Calais.

And.

Because I know you're not going out there just now, but I wonder if you could talk more

about, like, what it was like to go out there.

I've been wanting to go out for ages, but too

many kids stop me.

Eventually I will go.

But,

yeah, I wonder if you could talk about that.

Like, what kind of things you were kind of

seeing and how the herbs were received by the people, but also by, like, other

organizations.

Sure.

So I started going out in 2019.

Um,

and that was, like, pretty much.

I went on the second trip of the project when it was, like, in its infancy, so I was

learning with another herbalist called Melissa, who was, like, my sort of clinical

supervisor.

And so I kind of had, like, an interesting experience of, like, being one of the people

that was trying to set up the systems,

you know, like, our inventory and our databases and, like, all of this stuff.

And sometimes I think that stuff's, like, eclipsed my memories of, like, the actual

clinic.

But then when I actually talk about it, I get,

like, really emotional because it's like people.

Yeah, like,

when you're doing stuff in the uk, like, to support it, which is, like, it couldn't happen

without it, you know, like, the fundraising and the sourcing and the medicine making.

But, like,

yeah, when you're working there, it's like.

We call it the vortex.

It's like you're in this, like,

really intense world where, like,

you know, you pull up with the van in a field where people are, like, living in some sort of

encampment, and there's just, like,

rubbish everywhere and, like, human feces, because the cops have like taken away the

toilets or taken away the hand washing and like,

you know, you're just like meeting people and families and you know, three year old kids

that have been like pepper sprayed by the cops, that are like crying or like a guy

that's like crawled 2km to your clinic who's like broken his foot on like a propeller of a

boat or someone else who's just been like beaten half to death by the police that you

now have to like take to hospital.

Like it's so full on.

But then you also have moments where you're just like in the sunshine and people are

playing football and you've got like five lads with their feet in foot baths because the day

before they were all walking like 20 kilometers and their feet hurt and you're

just, you know, putting their feet in hot water with Epsom salts and essential oils.

And it's like, it's just like such a weird world of like, so many different things going

on at once.

But like,

yeah, it's quite,

yeah, it's quite intense.

Like we have like an external station where

we're doing like foot care and like wound dressings, things like this.

And then we have like an internal station for people that have like,

you know, like upper respiratory infections, like coughs, colds, flu and like digestive

problems.

But like all the time we're like constantly

scanning to see if we're missing anyone with something serious going on who needs like

further, like higher care.

So, you know, clocking the person who has had blood when they cough for like three months,

you know, rather than the person that's had a cold for three days, like, and that person,

you know, maybe has tb and we have to get them to hospital and we have to like advocate with

like the racist French doctors and like get them the test they need.

Whereas the other 300 people we see, we have to just, you know, give them a cold and flu

pack and make sure they know where the hospital is if they get worse.

But we can give them like cough syrup and immune tonic and a chest rub and that will

just help them sleep and help prevent their chest infection from getting worse, for

example.

But yeah, I don't know if you have like specific questions about it, but it's just

kind of everything under the sun.

Like one minute is like a gunshot wound and

the next it's like,

you know, you're just playing doctors and nurses with like three kids because there's

like no one around and you're just like hanging out.

So yeah, it's Very.

Yeah. Different.

I think I was just.

Yeah, I just wanted to talk about because I

think it's something that people don't see and then this kind of climate at the moment where

you know, so many people kind of saying all about the migrants coming and then you know,

to get like take our stuff and like.

And they get all this stuff when they come here and everything and it's just kind of

making awareness that it's not, they don't.

It's not like they're coming here and they've

got like the simple life and they just kind of walk in and they're just like pampered or

something.

You know, the way that people say, you know, they get put up in these hospitals, hostel

hotels and things and they kind of imagine that I think in this, that they're having like

five star treatment and stuff and it's like,

you know, it's not like that.

And I think it's just good for people to hear

about it a bit more.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, like the level of like violence against people is like so

extreme and people like are not.

Yeah. Like people, they're not making those journeys like from a place of like choice.

Right.

Like, it's really like I, I can't think of a

single person that I've met who hasn't had like some really full on story where you know,

their village has been like massacred or you know,

they're like on the run because if they get caught they're gonna get like hung or

something.

Like it's really like, you know, and we don't

ask people like where they're from.

Like we don't open that box but we always listen if someone wants to share.

And yeah, like it's, it's just kind of like unimaginable like trauma and yeah, like

unfortunately the far right have like started going to France, like the British far right.

So that they can, you know, like harass people.

And yeah, like we've always, there's always been like fascists in France that you know,

like target you.

Like my windscreen of my van got like smashed

for example.

Managed to like crowdfund to replace that in like an hour which was nice and like felt

quite defiant of.

Just like screw you.

Like we're still going with the clinic.

Like we're gonna, you know, keep on.

But yeah, like it's not.

Yeah, I think people,

yeah.

Don't just don't like don't comprehend like.

Yeah. What people have been through.

And also like France is like one of their like

last places, right.

Like, and then they have this dangerous way of

getting to the UK over the sea or like hiding in a lorry or.

Whereas, you know, you forget like someone is like potentially traveled across a lot of

Europe or Northern Africa or you know, cross the Mediterranean Sea, which is like one of

the most dangerous seas in the world in terms of like people that are dying there because of

like neglect from,

you know, like lifeboats and things and the navies of the various countries.

But like, you know, we're seeing people that have had horrific violence like through the

Balkans route or have lived in camps in like Greece for like several years or have been

forced to like live like underground.

Like it's just.

Yeah. By the time someone's got to France, they've just been through sometimes like years

and years of being a refugee in different countries and like trying to apply for asylum

and like.

Yeah,

it is hard when people like,

you know,

reproduce like such racist values.

And I'm just like, if you could just swap

places for five minutes, like,

you know.

Yeah,

so.

Yeah,

yeah,

Yeah. So yeah,

yeah.

So what I was wondering as well was like,

how do the other, the other like organizations that are working there, how do they view like

the herbs and herbal clinic?

Yeah. Do you know what, like, what I really like about Calais is like,

there is like a really good ecology of like solidarity between the different groups.

And I feel like people really respect the mobile Herbal Clinic Calais, but with any

herbalist you'll know that like you're not far away from like prejudice if that makes sense

of people's opinions about herbal medicine.

But like the actual refugees all have like, you know, all coming from places with really

strong like plant medicine traditions.

So they're like, oh, you know, oh, ginger tea,

amazing hibiscus tea.

Whereas I feel like sometimes there is like more prejudice from countries where there's

like a lot of repression against herbalism, including France and Germany.

But generally like most of the medical agencies like super value the clinic.

Like the people that distribute food and clothes and stuff, like refer people to us.

Like we also support volunteers when we're there.

So we'll have like one to one calls and sessions with people that are struggling with

like burnout and stuff.

So yeah, like, I think it's, it's like fragile, but it's taken like years.

But like there is like really good relationship between groups and I think people

really recognize how the things we distribute are actually like, very helpful and like very

in demand by the people we serve.

So lots of the refugees will go to the other medical projects and be like, you have more of

this, you know, like more of the cough syrup or like they want our muscle rub or like

things like this.

And they're like, oh, sorry, you know,

we don't have it.

But like, yeah, so I think like people can see that we really offer things that

people really need because like, you know, okay, you're only there for like five to seven

days, but you, you see that person on the first day who is just super unwell with flu.

And by the time you see them like three days later after they've had loads of medicine,

they're just feeling like so much more resourced and you know, Times that by 300,

like you can see that impact like straight away in terms of like how valuable the

medicines are.

So I think that other medical agencies have lot of like, respect and because, because of

the herbalism, like, I feel like we take the clinical safety almost like more seriously

than the other projects because we know that like, we'll have the eyes on us if that makes

sense.

So like, we always have to like, make sure that everyone leaves the clinic with a

translated information sheet about where to go to hospital where they can find like medicines

demand or the red Cross, like where they can get their dressings changed.

Like, I feel like because of how people perceive herbal medicine, like we have to like

constantly be like really shithole at our stuff and in a way that's like improved,

like.

Yeah, improved our practice.

And I feel like a lot of like my next steps

with the sold out apothecary, like I want to create this like online frontline herbalism

membership thing that like offers people training in like herbal first aid and like

clinical red flags and like, you know,

like your scope of practice and like all, all these things I've learned from like four,

five years in France.

Like just.

Yeah, what does that look like if you want to start a project in your community?

You know, like, is it okay to just do like some dressings for someone who's like

homeless?

Like, what do you need to consider, like, do you need to refer them somewhere?

Like, what if they've got sepsis? Like, you know, like all of these like extra

things.

But yeah, I feel like there's a good, a good like environment there in terms of,

you know, and everyone's like in the same boat, if that makes sense.

Like everyone has seen like the horrors of that place and there's like, you know, some

sort of like.

Yeah, shared experience of this like weird vortex of like everything that's going on and

yeah, if that makes sense.

Yeah, that's good.

I know that, like,

working in.

In Scotland, we've had.

Sometimes we've had some kind of pushback

from.

Mostly from people who are from Scotland, I

have to say, who are like,

yeah, we can't work with herbs.

What's this kind of witchy stuff, you know,

this kind of stuff.

And you still get that.

And I find that if we get people from other places who are like.

Because we tend to work with organizations who already be with.

Who are already supporting refugees, so we've got that kind of support as well around them.

And it tends to be.

If we get people.

Not all the time, obviously, but, like, if we

get people from other places, they are more open to send herbs into them.

Yeah.

I mean, people don't realize, like, how it's like, I don't know how many

generations, like,

at least seven generations where people have been, like, displaced from the land.

Like, you know, like the, you know, clearances and stuff in Scotland and everything in

England and Wales.

But it's like.

Yeah, like, it's really.

I love, like, speaking about herbal medicine

to people from countries where they haven't had as much, like, like, repression.

I mean, there's still, like, a lot of, like, medical imperialism and stuff against, like,

indigenous traditions, obviously, but, like,

yeah, people are, like, so much more.

Yeah. Just have that, like, affinity with plants of, like, oh, yeah, of course I'll make

a tea.

Like, it's obvious.

I'll just make a tea with this thing.

And.

Whereas, yeah, it can be a bit punishing in the UK with, like.

Yeah, I guess it kind of happened here first, didn't it?

Then we started exporting it out to everybody else and being like, hey, stay away from the

land.

You don't want those herbs.

Take these chemicals instead of.

Yeah.

And kill every feminized person.

That's a threat.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that.

Yeah, yeah.

So one of the other things that.

So you talked about, the Black Flag Herbal Clinic,

I particularly liked the framing that you've put about caring for yourself and you.

I think you're.

I wrote down what you actually said, that it's

a rebellion against neglect and disposability culture.

And I do like that because I think, like, quite often that.

But I found people in groups like this tend to,

you know, fighting for things that are so huge, and you really don't kind of look after

yourselves.

So I wonder if you could just kind of just talk more about the Black Flag Clinic in

general and why you think it's so important to look after yourself?

Mm, sure.

So, yeah, just the context of the clinic, like

I'd been supporting people,

like unpaid, I guess, doing a lot of like one to one support,

like different comrades and things.

But I wanted to create like a structure that

was like separate from the sold out apothecary or like eventually separate and that was like

more collective.

Probably because I miss going to Calais and I miss working with people,

like more intensely.

But so I put a call out, got really

overwhelmed with the amount of interest.

But now we've got like different kind of

signal groups and things.

So people come to calls that I'm taking with

someone so they can like watch and observe and then no one's been confident yet in terms of

where they are in their herbal journey.

But ideally we'll get to the place where people feel confident to take a call

themselves and I can like observe and like support and mentor and other herbalists can

get involved and also offer care.

So it's not just me.

And we can, you know, fundraise for it and stuff.

But yeah, we're mostly supporting people online and then sending them herbal medicines

in the post.

And you know, we've had folks from the US who

are like resisting ice there.

Like, you know, we've had people from like Italy who are doing loads of prisoner support

and like, yeah, just like all over the world.

And it's just been amazing.

But I think probably from my experience in these sort of like movements or, I don't know,

some people might call them subcultures I guess, but like

there

is this pattern of like the struggle or the movement or this bigger thing is much

more important than me and my needs.

And instead of questioning that kind of binary thinking,

we just see constant patterns of self neglect and martyrdom and self sacrifice.

And yeah, that often just leads to the same picture of extreme depletion, burnout, chronic

illness,

mental health challenges and all sorts of distress.

And I think that was my historic pattern of looking after a very kind of mentally unwell

parent and doing loads of solidarity stuff from a really young age where I learned that

my self worth related to what I did for other people and the way I earn love is to care for

everyone.

So it's kind of like how on earth do you unlearn that conditioning?

And I'm still ****** trying on that one.

But I realized, yeah, it's just not this

binary.

And actually,

yeah, like being able to,

you know,

prioritize your needs and look after your health, it does mean that you can serve other

people like more effectively, you know, because you're more resourced, but also like,

you intrinsically matter.

And I think that's what,

like, you know, a lot of kind of like organizer types need to just learn is like,

they are important too.

And,

you know, like, whether that's like just getting enough sleep or having periods where

they're not like, hyper adrenalized and in like intense chronic stress or just, you know,

the basics of nutrition.

Like, I lost a lot of older kind of huge mentors in my life because their patterns of

self neglect and self sacrifice were so extreme.

You know, like, oh, why should I spend money on food when I could donate it to an animal

sanctuary?

Or like something ridiculous.

But I feel like I've just, yeah.

Been on such a big learning journey of how do these things connect and like, you know, like,

learning from like, abolitionist and,

you know, like feminist movements that about care and talk about mutual aid and talk about,

you know, infrastructure for care.

And I feel like it's probably a kind of

predictable pattern for like a working class femme to be talking about it, but I feel like

the direction of my political work has gone in, is just screaming from the rooftops about

care is really important.

Like, health is really important.

Like, herbal medicine offers us this, like,

amazing way to care for each other in like, a decentralized way, you know, where we can,

like, build our own systems up and things.

And like,

yeah, I feel like Black Flag is just this like, tiny little microcosm.

And people that seek care from Black Flag, like, sometimes they are just excluded from

healthcare, like, especially the people in the US like, oh, my God, like over there with all

this, like, health insurance stuff.

Yeah,

sometimes it's just.

They actually just want to talk to someone

where they feel affinity with them, where they're not going to experience,

you know, like, loads of transphobia or they want to be involved in their own care and not

just receive a prescription from a doctor.

You know, they want to understand what's going

on in their body.

They want to make their own medicine.

So, yeah, like, I guess Black Flag is like just.

It's kind of just a big experiment really, of like, how can we,

you know, try and put some of these principles of like, mutual aid and solidarity and stuff,

like, into practice so that we can support each other, so that our movements can be

stronger.

Because if you've been involved in things for a long time, you'll just realize this stuff is

like one big burnout train.

You know, it's just get involved for a few

years,

get absolutely wrecked physically and emotionally, abandon things,

do you know what I mean? So it's like, how do we stay involved for the

long haul? Because none of these like social problems are

like easy fixes, right.

Or like short term things, you know, like look

how long people have been like resisting the regime in Iran.

You know, that's like intergenerational now.

So it's like, like we have to take like a long

term perspective on social change.

And therefore that means like valuing like

people and what they contribute and their health and their needs and like it doesn't

have to compete with the struggle.

Like it will support it.

Does that make sense? I feel like a web.

Yeah, yeah.

So does this like then fit into.

Because you also, you've also got support groups, right?

Like Horse on the Rose group.

Oh yeah.

Along the same kind of.

Of Are they just kind of in, in a container?

I guess.

Yeah. So those programs are like also kind of experimental.

So people access them and they get one to one support.

So they get that like really focus time on their health needs where it's like really

specific and we're looking at their blood tests and blah, blah, blah.

And then they also get access to a group space so they get that like collective care of you

know, group calls with people that like understand what they're going through and you

know, sweet messages and memes like in between calls and things as well as like accessing

like content so they can learn about herbalism and stuff.

As well.

So yeah, so they're not under that.

They're still in the like solidarity

apothecary framework if that makes sense or banner.

But yeah, I think but it's about

like kind of care and stuff as well.

Look after yourself as well.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's really like treating you know, like a

lot of people that are like,

you know, have access those spaces like you know, they've like cried in consultations

because like no one has ever been so interested in their body or you know, they

will see a GP and they can talk about one issue for five minutes and out the door and

they'll just cry being like,

wow, someone cares about me and this is all really connected and I can't believe someone

is just doing this out of solidarity and that,

you know, how can I matter because I've like smashed something up in an arms factory.

Like I'm not suffering compared to this person, this person person.

But actually like it's just kind of like reaffirming that actually no, you do matter

and like let's you know, look at your body and look how you're feeling and you know, get you

herbs in the post.

And yeah, I think that there is like a level of like emotional resourceness to do that kind

of like relational stuff.

And I feel like when I used to do more prison

related things, it was like much more PTSD for me.

So I just like,

we just hated everyone.

Just like,

you know, just absolutely hated it.

Whereas now, like,

yeah, I. I must have recovered from my health issues because I'm like actually enjoying

working with other people, which is a miracle.

Yeah, I think it goes in waves, doesn't it?

Because sometimes I'm just like, yes, I need to be with people.

At times I'm like, oh my God, I can't talk to anybody right now.

Yeah,

I, like, at the moment,

yeah, I'm not.

I mean, but when you're going through something traumatic,

it actually, like you can,

you know, like we're all chatting away on the discord, like on this server for Cali, and

it's like, I don't have family in Iran.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, it's not on my nervous system.

So it's like, it's no surprise if like,

you know, you're like, I don't feel any connection with these people right now because

they.

We can't understand what you're going through.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, Everybody's got their own little, you know, they.

Yeah, of course.

But yeah, yeah.

Oh, also, thank you for my T shirt.

Let's do it on my.

On the video.

Oh, look at that Lovely stuff.

So if people want to get in contact with you and check out any of your stuff, do you

want to give like, kind of handles and links and everything?

Sure.

So everything is on the solidarity apothecary.org website.

I've got a podcast called the Frontline Herbalism Podcast and the newsletter that I

mentioned.

And then if anyone is still on social media

anymore, then my Instagram is at Solidarity Apothecary.

Sometimes I'm very active on it, mostly when I'm trying to promote something.

And then other times I'm like complete hermit and you won't see me on there for weeks.

So best to get me via email if possible.

Yeah.

Thank you very much for your time.

It's been a nice time.

No. And you stop the video

when you realize it's not been recording.

Thanks so much for listening to the Frontline Herbalism podcast.

You can find the transcript, the links, all the resources from the

[email protected] podcast.