Ready to rediscover your creative spark? This episode of The Grit Show features author Laura Munson, whose new book "The Wild Why" inspires us to rethink creativity and wonder in our everyday lives. Host Shawna Rodrigues explores themes of self-expression, overcoming creative blocks, and finding awe—even in a world filled with distractions and self-doubt. Laura shares powerful stories about reclaiming your voice, the importance of curiosity, and how simple shifts—like changing the words you use—can help you unlock hidden inspiration.

Whether you think creativity is reserved for “artsy” types or you’re just feeling stuck, this conversation offers uplifting guidance, practical tips, and a reminder that magic is for everyone. Tune in to learn how Montana’s landscape sparked Laura’s insights and pick up teasers about her transformative writing retreats. Don’t miss out if you’re searching for motivation, self-development, or a creative reset!

Laura Munson is the New York Times, USA Today, and international bestselling author of the novel Willa’s Grove and the memoir This Is Not The Story You Think It Is. Founder of the acclaimed Haven Writing Retreats, she has been featured or published in Vanity Fair, Elle, Redbook, Time, Newsweek, The New York Times “Modern Love” column, The New York Times Magazine, O, The Oprah Magazine, and many others. She has appeared on Good Morning America, The Early Show, WGN, NPR, London’s This Morning, Australia’s Sunrise, and other global media outlets. She lives in Whitefish, Montana. For more information, visit: lauramunson.com.

Connect with her on social media:

Facebook- Laura Munson

Instagram- @lauramunsonauthor

LinkedIn- Laura Munson

Get her book here.

Shawna Rodrigues has been hosting the The Grit Show, since 2022 and has loved every minute of it. She has an award winning career in the government and non-profit industry, an LCSW, and a passion for making a impact.

She is currently facing her biggest plot twist yet—a breast cancer diagnosis in early 2025—this year is about her fight, victory, and healing. Join her warrior community Being Honest and check out the podcast episode where she shares more.

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Have you lost touch with your sense of magic in everyday life? Are you someone who stumbles at the idea of you being creative? After all, you have a friend who's artistic or is a writer. How could you possibly be as well? I had a conversation recently with author Laura Munson that completely shifted how I think about this. Her latest book, the Wild why, tackles exactly this feeling, why so many of us feel creatively stuck or believe creativity just isn't for us. Laura had this incredible insight. This stopped me in my tracks. Sometimes we just get caught up and slowed down by simple words, and we can't let that stop us. What if the reason you feel blocked isn't because you lack something, but because you're using a word that feels too intimidating? Laura suggests replacing that overwhelming concept with something much more accessible. And when she breaks it down, suddenly it feels so easy to reach, so accessible.

So today you get to be part of a conversation about how our society has forgotten something vital, about why Montana taught her something profound about rediscovering wonder and how you can start reclaiming that spark no matter where you are right now. If you've ever felt like magic and creativity belongs to other people, the perspective you're about to hear just might change everything. I'm so glad you're here for it. Welcome to The Grit show where our focus is growth on purpose. I'm your host, Shawna Rodrigues, and I'm honored to be part of this community as we journey together with our grit intact to learn more about how to thrive, how to get the most out of life. It means a lot that you are here today. As you listen, I encourage you to think of who may appreciate the tidbits of knowledge we are sharing and to take a moment to pass this along to them. Everyone appreciates a friend that thinks of them and these conversations are meant to be shared and to spark even more connections.

Today we get to spend some time with Laura Munson. You are going to enjoy her. She is not only a writer, she is also somebody who is a storyteller and she enjoys helping others on their creative journey. Her latest book, the Wild why, is what we are going to explore today and it has been on Maria Shriver's Sunday list. So something that she chose as a book that you are going to have as a new best friend to explore and spend time with. Today we're going to get into that. Learn about the writing retreats that Laura has and about the journey she helps others on as they find their creative voice and the beauty of storytelling and women coming together, it sounds like in some of your books as well. So thank you so much for being here with us today, Laura.

Well, thank you, Shawna, and thank you for doing the good thing in the world that you're doing with the Grit Show. I'm so happy to be here. I have no doubt that we're going to have a very inspiring and illuminating conversation.

Yes. So you have three books out and more on the way, it sounds like, and I'm excited. So the Wild why in reading it. It's very inspirational. It's very much meant to be a guide, so it's self help, but it's really just this guide for whoever's reading it to have this journey back to where they lost their ability to wonder what inspired you to finally write this book.

Thanks for that good question. So because I have been a writer since 1988 when I started my first book and really had only studied fiction, it was a surprise that I actually used nonfiction, starring me as the main character in my first book, which was the New York Times, an international best selling book called this Is not the Story youy Think It Is. And the short version was published in the Modern Love column in the New York Times Sunday Styles. I bring this up because it began this crazy new chapter of my life, big plot twist, wherein I suddenly became a speaker in the realm of wellness. And I really had only studied fiction. And so the things that I kept hearing when I spoke at these very large conferences for women, you know, 10,000 women in attendance and they would give me a ballroom in the morning of 2000 women and then another ballroom in the afternoon of another 2,000 women. And then there would be a book signing after.

And it was a fascinating field study. And as writers are, we're full of empathy, but we're also very curious about the human condition. We're students of the human condition. Because I've lived in Montana for 30 years, I was very interested in hearing what all these women, these seekers had to say. And I kept hearing the same things over and over again. I don't have a voice. I'm not creative and I'm stuck in my self expression. And I thought, well, of course you've got a voice.

You're using it to say you don't have a voice. I think what they meant was I don't have a voice that matters or somebody else already said it better than I ever could or I don't have letters after my name or it's self indulgent at best. All that stuff I call Them refusals. And they come from what I call the inner critter. Because why not be playful with that inner critic? And it's really fear. It's fear. And then the other one. I'm not creative.

Of course you're creative. Everything that we think, every action we make with our bodies, the way we speak, how we decorate our house, how we season food, everything we do is an act of creation. And then I'm stuck. That's a myth. No one's stuck. No one's thinking about that when they're a little wobbly kid playing in a sandbox with a bunch of strangers. Just playing and sharing buckets and shovels and digging and making sandcastles and moats that connect. And will it hold water? And let's have our dragons play.

And I don't mean this to be a silly, frilly idea. We live in a very worried world, and everybody can agree with that. And so, to end my answer to your great question, I thought, well, I need to get off these stages, and I need to bring people to Montana, which serves up a whopping dose of wonder every single day. And that's why I stay here, even though I hail from cities, Chicago, New York, Boston, et cetera. And so sitting on a stump, as one does in Montana, walking around the woods, thinking about that word creativity, it scares people. And why does it scare people? Well. And why do they tell themselves the story that they're not creative? Well, it was probably because when they were little, in traditional education in this country, at least in the United States, people probably heard you're artsy, which means you're creative. You're a jock, you're athletic, you're a brain, you're academic.

And so the people who are jocks and academics, et cetera, go on into their life to think that they're not creative, which is just simply nonsense. And so I thought, let's get rid of the word creativity. It scares people. It's too fraught. It activates that inner critter. So sitting on the stump out where I live, here in Whitefish, Montana, and I thought, what's behind the word creativity? And that's when I thought, wonder. But then I thought, that's a big word, too. What's behind the word wonder? And I decided it's curiosity and awe put together.

And I think in this civilization, in this country, at least, we're heavy on curiosity. Google what makes a rainbow. But I think we're low on awe. And that's what this book is really about. And we can talk about that. That's my favorite subject right now.

I love that. I love that you broke it down to those pieces and also analyzed that. We're. We're big on curiosity, but we're low on awe. And I think that is a perfect analysis of what people are missing and why they don't associate wonder and creativity with where they're at and what they need. And you have the antidote come to.

Montana, or you don't have to come to Montana. There are many other antidotes. And each of these chapters ends in a call to action called your wild. Why? We can talk about that in a minute. Because I do think that we can find our wilderness, our inner wilderness, wherever we are, in a elevator in midtown Manhattan. You don't have to come to Montana to find it. Although it's a pretty good place to come to find your wonder.

It's a little easier maybe, perhaps it's a little more in your face, and you got the big sky, sky, country, and it's all right there. But it is a great thing that we don't pause. And I think that we don't take the time for awe. That curiosity can bubble up a little easier. But the awe is something that you almost have to, like, take a moment and reflect and sit with, and that we don't have that. And sometimes our getaways are. Take a step away from everyday life is where we actually interact with that a little bit more. And so it's great that you have the opportunity with your book that people can find that space and sit with it and curl up for their new best friend and take that moment to find that wonder.

Yeah, it is definitely a book that's meant to become a friend. It's meant to be read slowly. I was just this morning, actually, I do Pilates, and there was a woman who was in the studio right before me, and she said, I waited for you to come because I wanted to let you know that I'm reading your book. She's 89, and she does Pilates, which is pretty cool. And she just wants to keep her balance. And that's really important if you. Anyway, yeah, all these things as you age. And I just turned 59 a couple weeks ago, so I'm beginning to think, like, how is my balance going to go? That's a question of wonder.

But I'm trying not to be afraid about it. And so we always have a little chat, like, in between our sessions. And she said, I'm reading your book very slowly. And she said, you know, there's a part in it where you say, do you remember the first time that you flew a kite? And what that felt like, having the wind hold this kite in the air attached to you on the ground. And she started to cry in the most beautiful, sentimental way. And she said, I hadn't thought of the first time that I flew a kite with my father who taught me until just last night when I read that. And I then of course I started to cry because the book, as my Native American friend says from over here in the Blackfeet Reservation, she says a book holds medicine and it's the writer's job to deliver the med medicine. That's it.

So it's not about me. And that's why I I ventured into self help this time. You won't find bullet points in this or tips or tricks or 10 easy steps. I don't think those stick. I think they help sometimes. But what I have found, especially when I was on the speaking circuit and that, you know, they might stick for an afternoon or maybe if you're lucky a year, but you'll remember a story. And I know you value stories. I value stories.

And that's why the subtitle of the Wild why is Stories and Teachings to uncover your wonder.

That's beautiful. It's definitely beautiful. And since you've written it, have you had more interactions like that that have really seen how it resonates with people?

Yes. It came out April 8, 2025 and and I went on a six week cross country book tour all over the place. So again, it was another fascinating field study in how something that you've written ripples into people's lives. And I got to see people sitting in the front row holding hands and crying. You have no idea. My first book is a memoir. My straight up full on memoir. This is not the story you think it is.

Then Willows Grove is a tough, total committed novel that came out in 2020. And then the Wild Y is in yet a new lane. I keep switching lanes. Fiction is my favorite, but boy, do I love to see, per your question, how something that you write that is prescriptive in some way that has a teaching spirit really helps. And it can't be about you. It cannot be about you. It's got to be about the message. And there are some, some motivational speakers out there that I think build a brand around their personality and who they are.

And I got tempted into that world and I stepped out of it because of exactly what you and I value the most and that is the story I want the story to be the star, not me. Even if it's memoir. So the Wild white. Yes, it's meant to be slowly read. It's supposed to, you know, live on your bedside table. And of course, like I said before, there is this section at the end of each one called you're wild. Why? A lot of people are reading the whole thing kind of like a memoir because it is so story forward. It's not what they're used to finding in a self help section.

You know, try this, do this. Pop out boxes, graphs. Nothing wrong with those things. It's just not my style. So then they're reading the second time and doing the. Your wild wine calls to action. Because I want there to be something concrete to walk away with. It's kind of like I'll share with you some of my stories and they're painful and most of them have to do with early childhood wounds when it comes to self expression.

I'd like to just read to you the four lines from my fourth grade journal. May I?

Yes.

Okay. It's the first thing in the book. This is fourth grade. Shawna, how old are. I think we're what, nine when we're in fourth grade? Nine.

Eight or nine? Yeah.

Eight or nine. Yeah. This is in my pink patent leather journal that says private on the side with a key or a lock. Sorry, I had the key. Maybe you had one like this too. I'm in my office right now in Montana where I write and there's a closet full of my journals and it's in there. And this is so heartbreaking to me. And this is why I wrote this book.

On top of hearing all those women say that they didn't have a voice, they weren't creative, they were stuck in their self expression. And I just started to look into the archives of who I am because I've always written things down. I've just been that way my whole life. Lots of people, maybe some of your listeners are that way. Maybe you're that way too. You ready for this? I talk too much. I ask too many questions. I cry too easily, I laugh too loud.

I'm too sensitive. I'm not sure what that means. And I feel bad about all of it. Laura Munson, fourth grade journal. And I feel bad about all of it. That just breaks my heart. In the book there's a chapter where it's sort of a dark night of the soul. I'm looking at, you know, post divorce reinvention and looking at empty nest and living in Montana and what am I going to do for a living and just all, you know, just 4 o' clock in the morning.

The book begins with the 4am haunt. That's the first chapter after the introduction, because. Because that's that witching hour that, you know, that wakes us up. And. And that's when we're so mean to ourselves. Most of us would not treat our worst enemies the way that we treat ourselves in our own minds. And boy, does it attack hard in the middle of the night, like right around then, 3 o', clock, 4 o' clock in the morning. And so I had one of those one night, and I just thought, I'm going to go read through all my journals.

And I found that journal. Of course, most of it's like, I like Brian today. I like Peter today. I like Tor now. So and so likes Peter. So. So, I mean, it's just lots of girly things and. But that was in there.

And I thought, there's the wound.

Yeah.

At age 9, it was already festering. And I grew up with a supportive family. I grew up in a very affluent suburb of Chicago. I was privileged enough to go to a New England prep school, study abroad in Italy for a year. So I'm not really a sympathetic character. I'm not rolling in the dough, but not that that matters. The point is that no matter where you are from and who you are, somewhere inside of you, unless you are very free, and I hope you are that most of the people I've worked with, spoken to, listened to, helped write books with are people who have a wound like that. And that wound is what I want us to revisit and honor, learn from and let go of.

Yes. No, that's beautiful. Yeah. I still have the report card work. I said I talk too much, so I thought my report cards and me talking too much is on a report card even, which obviously has served me well. I have a podcast. Right.

So. Well, I know. So, like, that's in my book too, somewhere. I don't know where it is, but it's like, literally the report card. It's like, Laura would do well to stop asking so many questions. I don't know where it is, but one of the things I asked the reader to do, and I did it, and I did it in a very kind of, like, quick way at first. And then I realized I needed to really delve into this if I was going to ask the reader to do the same. And that was to create a wonder timeline.

And the timeline was really just all about kind of like early Childhood through. I mean, for me, it was through adolescence. It was through the point at which I realized that I was a writer. And then. Then it just came pouring out into books, and I never had to look back, but I kept them very close because of what you're saying. You know, if you have a wound around talking too much or expressing yourself too much, then, you know, maybe we become writers and we don't try to get published for a long time, which is what I was. It was like, I'm going to sit at this intersection of heart and mind and craft that is the writing life. And I'm going to sit here for a long time before I think about how this might go into the world, because I need it.

I need a safe place to express myself. And that's. May we all find that safe place. May we all find that safe place.

Yes. I think the beauty of having community and connection and other people to help us find the safety to then release that and explore that is also a beautiful thing. And I think that you talked about in your. In your second book, some of the ways of the storytelling and some of the stuff with other characters also brings that beauty to light as well. So it's beautiful to have this resource in your book you have out now that we can work through some of this ourselves and look at that, too. But I love that you mentioned your. Your novel that you wrote that it talks about these women coming together so they can also find that place and that support. And it sounds like your retreats might be an avenue for that as well.

Thank you for bringing that up. That book that you're talking about is a novel, truly a novel. It's called Willa's Grove, and I'm not Willa. And it stars four women, and they're all at major crossroads moments, and they're all pretending that they're fine, and they're saying that they're fine in the grocery store when they're dispatched. Bloodied, bruised inside. And, you know, word to the wise, you don't owe everybody your whole story. You know, when you're buying broccoli in the grocery store. But it's so important.

One of the calls to action in the Wild why, and your Wild why sections is find a person in your life that you can trust and really answer that question. How are you? And I mean, take a long time, maybe a weekend where you go away together. And the way that we. We, the women in. In Willows Grove feel very real to me. I miss them deeply. I've thought about actually Writing three other versions of Willis Grove using the same recipe as Willa did, which is essentially to finally be honest with one trusted friend about how you really are and then ask her to come to you or to a place, but like to be the hostess, I guess in Willis case in Montana, but not in Whitefish. It's like a different part of the state.

It's a big state, Montana. And then she this the. The invitee asks another person who's at a major crossroads moment. And then she asks a third and then the third asks a fourth. And so they all convene. Not at a hotel, not at a resort, not where people can like get pedicures and get massages. No, they're there to tell each other their stories in three parts. Number one, what was supposed to happen? Because if you're in a big crossroads moment, it probably has something to do with the fact that what you thought would happen is different than what actually happened.

So what you thought would happen, what actually happened. Part two. And then help me with so now what? Help me to move forward in my life and to get invested in that. And that is such a rare thing. If somebody doesn't want to spend like two hours, let's say, hearing how you are, then that's not somebody to trust with your story. And that's something. There's a chapter in the wild why called the tiger in the room where a friend of mine who was a big TV producer from New York City took a a sabatical and traveled across the country interviewing people who had more evergreen stories. Not like celebrities and stuff, but just like human lifestyle stuff.

And so she was going from one small town to the next and she had seen me on Good Morning America and she was like, I want to have you just meet me in this one Ponytown in southern Montana. And I just want to spend like the afternoon together. We spent the whole weekend together. And in that time we were sitting at some, you know, typical of Montana. There's like a bar and a gambling place and a filling station and a place to tie up your horse and I. And it was one of those towns and we sat there all day and talked about what gets in the way of our true self expression. And so that's one of the calls to action in the book, to take away and to apply in your life. How can you truly answer, how are you in a way that is true, not what you're supposed to say, but what is actually happening, but that has you feel safe enough to truly answer.

And that's a rare person in your life. And it might not be a family member nor a good friend. It might be somebody that you meet on an airplane or that you meet along the way that you feel kindred with. So that's one of the concrete takeaways from the book.

Yeah, that's an important piece. And having that kindred connection. And I love that you kind of acknowledged it can be these passing souls that you connect to. It might be the space and the place and the people you could actually talk to. But you need to be able to download that and to be able to share that at places and times, to be able to reflect and see where you really are. We need to hear it out loud sometimes and process that instead of just keeping it all in.

Yes, especially again, I'm going to return back to this worried world that we live. No matter what your politics are, no matter what your spiritual affiliation is, we can all agree that this is a worried world and things are changing really differently. I was raised by a World War II father. He fought in World War II. He was born in 1918. He was 50 when I was born. There's a wonderful ode to him in the first memoir, this Is not the. This is not the.

This is not the Wild. Why, that's kind of funny. This is not the street. This is not the story you think it is. And he just taught me so much about this way of letting fear lord over your life and how that whole generation. This is a big subject, but that whole generation was very much about kind of chesting their cards, as they would say, like, if you're playing cards. They weren't about airing their dirty laundry. They were dealing with so much loss all the time, and they were bucking up, and they were building victory gardens in their backyard.

They were creating things out of pain and true loss. And there's a lot of loss right now in our world. And so I'm hoping that those of us, such as yourself, Shawna, can bring some light into the world without dumbing down the fact that we are in such a worried world. And to me, the idea of wondering is not a silly, frilly idea. And I bet if my father was still living, I could have convinced him of this, because I think he would have said, well, we don't have time for things like wonder. Well, of course you do. He was the one that taught me how to stop and look at bird migrations. He was the one who taught me how delicious an ice cream cone was on a Sunday after church and how important it was to clean off the soles of your shoes after a walk through the city.

I mean, he was just a slow man living in a fast world. And I've never really talked about any of this before, but some of this wisdom is in the wild. Why that? Just because our world is in pain and it never hasn't been in pain, it doesn't mean that we can't stop for wonder, awe, curiosity, and even playfulness. There's a huge component of playfulness in this book. We can find playfulness. I've got a really good friend with cancer. We spoke last night on the phone. We haven't spoken in a long time, and she was full of playfulness because we have to be.

And without wonder, without curiosity, without awe. On a more serious note, we don't have empathy. And without empathy, we really don't have a civilization, especially empathy for people who are quite different from ourselves. We what makes you tick? I don't understand you. I don't agree with you. But I'd like to understand what makes you tick so that I not necessarily make you wrong or right, but so that I can understand what this thing is called the human condition. And that's what writers are doing. We're trying to forward the idea of empathy, I think, in so many ways.

Again, we're students of the human being.

Yeah. And it seems that playfulness is almost the antithesis of judgment and that what is what makes it almost dangerous at times. I know that with my breast cancer journey that I'm almost to the other side of right now, that I have so many jokes and so much playfulness around it. But it's only safe with the people who know me and know that I'm being playful and know that we can joke about it and know that it can be, that we can find the humor in it. And it's good to make the light and to make the playful and to make it that space, because it is the opposite of judgment and the darkness and the heaviness. But it has to be the space where we can do that. So I can't do it in the lobby of the cancer care center with people that don't know me, may not see the jokes and may have the heaviness and have the darkness still there. Right.

So it has to be the safer space where there's not the judgment, where it can be. And so if you have me on my phone with my aunt, we are laughing hysterically in the face of this really serious stuff. And my dearest, closest friends, but it's not something that I do as much on my podcast with people that I don't know if it's the safest space or in a place that we can be playful and be as whatever else. But there's like, an ongoing joke that I have a standup act around breast cancer because of all of the things that I can come up with and be playful and. And funny about it. But I would be so nervous to ever do that because of, like, the opposite spectrum of judgment around what I find playful and what I can be funny about with it. So I feel like those are almost the antithesis. So it is like almost the.

The antidote to it to some extent. But at the same time, it's also like a. There's like, a little bit of volatility with it because of that, if that makes sense.

Thank you, by the way, for telling your story. I would add to that after helping over a thousand people find their. From whatever find their voice means, but many of them, I've helped write books and help them publish their books. Anybody who promises you that they can publish your book, just, like, run for the hills, like. But I really understand the publishing world in this country, and I know a lot about how to structure a book so that it will really resonate with the reader without ever selling out for one second. And what I'm hearing you say is that you. You're not selling out. Cancer, it sounds like, has made you know yourself even better.

And I've worked with many, many clients who have that story, and that's their story to tell, and that's where the wisdom comes. And so I think that probably what you have to say about the subject is so needed because it's so scary. That word cancer is so scary for people and to be able to find humor in the whole thing. I mean, you don't lose your personhood. You don't lose your personality just because you're going through chemo or whatever. My friend said last night, and this is probably nothing that anybody has ever said on your podcast, but I'm just gonna say it. She said after chemo, she looked like a smoked cigarette.

She probably felt like one, too.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not gonna say who it is because she's writing a book and she's a client, but I thought that was so good. And then she said, and sometimes on a good day, I look a dirty white sock. She's a white woman. So just like you think of, like, a dirty white sock, she's laughing and. And it's just part of being the Exact human that you are. And I'll bring this off of cancer and into self expression because I know that's really your goal here, is to talk about, you know, growth on purpose, which I love.

And when I went out on book tour for my first book, this is not the story you think it is, which again, I could not believe that I was the main character in this book. It's like, are you kidding? I've written. I've written like, I've lost track, like 23, 24 unpublished novels not starring me as the main character. That's what I've been studying since 88. And I have like eight novels that are good that I think should be published. Once you get published in one genre, things change because then you have to sort of like, it becomes. It's a business. And I've just been this sort of artist that's taken any old job I could take to make ends meet and just fiction, fiction, fiction, focus on my life.

Well, anyway, so when the first book came out, I'm going to totally. Oh, yeah. And I went on tour, I thought, okay, how am I going to keep this real? Because I was a theater major, I know how to act and I don't want to act. I mean, acting is still truth. And I always say fiction is distilled reality. It's like realer than real. But if I'm going to take all these stages and go across the country with this big, huge, like, book thing, because it was just because of that Modern Love column, like, essay that the whole thing went so viral. And I got the red carpet from Penguin now Penguin Random House.

So it was kind of like, I wonder if this will ever happen again. And so I, I needed a mantra. I needed something grounding, as I assume you need when you go into chemo, radiation, whatever treatment, if one is in treatment or any kind of treatment for anything. And so here, here's my mantra. I give myself permission to be exactly who I am and have it be easy. I give myself permission to be exactly who I am and have it be easy. Not that, not that it's easy, but that we find ease.

Yeah.

And if part of that ease is humor, wonderful. Let it be so. I mean, you're, you're an expert on this. I've got a whole lot to say about more takeaways and, and things that one can do to connect with one's wonder. But giving yourself permission to be exactly who you are and have it be easy. Like, I bet there are listeners out there who are like, huh? How do you do that with all the scrutiny and the judgment, the self judgment. That's the worst one. And all the people around me who need me to be a certain way and perform.

But what if you allowed yourself to be exactly who you are? And frankly, the people who can't handle it, so what? Let them go somewhere else and point an arrow in another direction. It's too exhausting trying to be what other people want us to be. And I will say that in the midst of, you know, six weeks on the road is a lot. I mean, it was. And when I say on the road, like I'm doing workshops not just for writers. I've done a bunch of the wildwy workshops. And I was going coast to coast to coast and in between and everywhere and up and down. And I'm going back out.

Oh, then I went out this summer and then I'm going out again this winter. I'm going to sunny places because I live in Montana. So I'm going to do a winter Florida tour.

That is smart.

And I'm like, anybody want to hear me speak in the Bahamas? That would work. Virgin Islands. But I was. I have a rule when I tour, and that is that I never stay with friends or family. I always drive myself or get well. Now we've got Uber and stuff. And I don't ever go out for dinner or drinks or coffee with anybody. Because you just have to be in this zone.

Yes.

But I broke my rule because a friend of mine, who I hadn't seen since my Seattle writing days when I was writing some of my first books, just showed up and she said, do you want to just go out for a little cup of tea after your reading in Greenwich, Connecticut? And I'm like, okay. And she said, how's it going? And I said, you know, it's never been easier being myself. I can't believe it. I finally have figured out you just be yourself. Like, which the word just is so pejorative. But what would it take for you to be yourself and have it be easy? That's what's going on. I think it's because this book is so honest and true and it was really scary to write. But I'm hoping people will read it and read the calls to action and find their truth too.

Nobody can express themselves the way that you can. Nobody.

Yes. And I think your point about our self judgment being one of the largest things that gets in the way because our self judgment often includes the voices we've heard and all those wounds we've collected for the last X number of years. And so our self judgment is often the loudest voice and often the voice we need to quell the most when we're trying to do these things.

I agree.

What would you say if we just took one little tidbit to pass on to everyone from your recommendations and pieces from the end of chapters, what would you say would be a great place to just start with that wonder that we can pass on to our listeners as they walk away today as something that they could start to enliven their wild why before they get the hands on the book.

Oh, I love that question. And thank you for asking it. I'm not even sure this is in the book. I need to read the book. It's funny, when authors finish a book, they rarely go back to it. But I've been teaching from it, but selectively. Well, one of the things I know is in the book I already said find a trusted person in your life and dedicate time where you tell each other your stories and you can even break it down to what's in Willow's Grove, which is what was supposed to happen or what you thought would happen, what actually happened. And then help me like, so now what? Now what do I do? And maybe your, your friend isn't supposed to be a therapist or an advisor, but you know, the friend could help you think about like, oh, maybe I need to downsize.

Maybe I'm an empty nest and I don't need this house anymore. Maybe I need, you know, maybe I'm going to hit the road, travel around. Maybe, you know, I can't afford my life anymore because I've been through a divorce. So should I stay or should I go? Situation with a career or an interpersonal relationship. That's one thing that's in the book and that's after the tiger in the room chap toward the end of the book, we get into it sort of reads like a travelogue wherein I was an empty nest and I was single and I have a huge traveling spirit, wander lust. And I lead retreats in Montana and people are always coming here to come to Haven writing retreats. And they're having this amazing experience so far away from where they live. Because Montana has rarely come on my retreats.

Many, I mean probably 30 have come in a thousand people from Montana. And so one of the calls to action the your wild why in the last part of the book is what I call taking a wonder trip. And again wonder. Let's not think of it as a silly frilly idea. Oh, that's nice. She must, you know, be rich and like, is a lady who lunches. And there's nothing wrong with being rich and a lady who lunches. But I am not rich and I'm not a lady who lunches.

And what I know is that no matter what is in your piggy bank, it always is helpful to somehow get outside of your comfort zone. And if that means that you go someplace far away from home, great. If you can't afford that, you can find another side of town that is different or a place that is outside of your comfort zone. There's a wonderful poetry who is very much alive. She's a medical doctor. She lives outside of Philadelphia. Her name is Emma Mellon. And her poem, she's a poet.

And her poem that I love so much, a line from it is quoted in the Wild why? And it is this line, allow yourself to be spelled differently. Ooh, nice, huh? Allow yourself to be spelled differently. And so I do retreats outside of the US in the capacity of something I called haven, Wander. But they're very light on writing and very large on being and allowing yourself to be spelled differently. And I've done them last year I did one in Uruguay. Uruguay, South America. I've done one in Morocco. I've done them in different places in Mexico.

But I think that it's so important once a year to dedicate at least a weekend to go someplace that is different from where you live and allow yourself to be spelled differently. Another call to action is something that I don't know. I should know that this is in the book or not. But to find a little book. Everybody's got a little book in their life. A little book. Maybe somebody gave it to you. Anybody who's listening to Shawna's podcast, the Grit show, is a seeker on some level.

And so any seeker has a little book someplace in their house that someone gave them or they picked up, or like a moleskin that they got in a, you know, an airport somewhere. A little book. Maybe it's lined, maybe it's blank. I like blank. And then we save it and we think, oh, we're going to give it to somebody else. You know, it's too pretty for us. But what if you took that little book? Or what if you went and got a little book and sat someplace on your lunch break? If you live in an urban area or it's a weekend, I love a Sunday afternoon and to go sit someplace. Not everybody has stumps.

They sit on. I mean, these huge old growth stumps around my house in Montana are probably not what are in your backyard but a park bench. I bet you can find a park bench, that you can find a piece of grass someplace in a park and sit down with. With a little book and a pen and make it a wonderful pen full of wonder. And then just write down little thoughts. Nothing big, nothing smart, nothing wise. Don't wait for the wisdom. The wisdom is in the little things, I think.

And here's just some stuff this summer from my little book. Robin hops five times toward the sprinkler. Here's a worm, plucks it up. He she is no dummy. Did you know that when robins hop there and they pick up a worm, they're listening for the worm? Well, I didn't know that until I sat there and watched Robin hops five times toward the sprinkler. My sprinkler was on in my backyard. Here's a worm, plucks it up. He she is no dummy.

I had no idea that robins are listening for worms until I realized that sprinkler is creating all this water which attracts worms. And the robins are not looking for them. You can see they're listening. Little things like that. Flickers. You know what a flicker is? It's like a woodpecker. They're very loud flickers, calling to each other. One in the marsh, one in the woods.

So much to warn each other about just little things. And I wonder why this one. I wonder why dog fur. I've got two white dogs. I wonder why dog fur gathers on the edges of the hallway like cottonwood seeds on a driveway.

Yes.

And so, as Reiner Maria Rilke writes in his beautiful little book called Letters to a Young Poet, he says, it's the questions themselves. Love the questions. So find a little book and ask some questions and don't worry about the answers and just be in a place of wonder. I promise you it will calm you. It will ground you. If you really are serious about this practice, it might just change everything for you. Because wonder is all around us all the time, and it's ours by birthright. And you knew it when you were little, and then the world told you to stop wondering if and to get in line and do all the things you're supposed to do.

And you get to a certain point in your life and you think, I don't think this is serving me. I think that I'm being propelled by fear and addiction to ambition, which I was for a long time. And what happens if you step out of that line? It's pretty happy. It's a happy place. And you might not be rich and you might not be famous you, but you can feel healthy and well and childlike and full of wonder again. And I think that's not only ours by birthright, but I think it's life force.

That's beautiful. I love it. I love this, Laura and I love your books and I'm so excited for our listeners to be able to connect to them. What is the best way for people to be able to connect with you?

Lauramunson.com L A U R A M U N s o n.com and you can learn all about Haven writing retreats. I'm doing a little website reconstruction right now, but it's should all be up and then. Yeah, I lead about six or seven Haven writing retreats a year here in beautiful Flathead Valley, Montana, northwest corner near Glacier National Park. And I'm full for 2025, but I am now booking for 2026. You do not have to be a writer to come, but anybody who who listens to Shawna's podcast, the Grit show is somebody who is probably a very good match for what I do. You do not have to be like, I've got a book about writing coming out next year and in it it says you don't have to write good, you just have to write true. And I'm just using writing as a tool to help you find your truth and what's behind your words and what's in between them and what's left in their wake. So lauramunson.com and you can follow me on all the social media things.

But the main thing is that if you really want to get serious about your self expression, if you want to write a book, an essay, a story, a poem, anything, have a more committed way of showing up in your life using writing in your journal. Contact me through my website, lauramundson.com we'll set up an intro call and we'll dig into it.

That's beautiful. And we'll have the links to your books as well because you're going to want to check them out, starting with the wild. Why thank you so much. We'll have the links to all the socials as well. It was such an honor to get to meet with you and speak with you more. Laura, you're such a gift. I love what you're doing. So thank you for all of it.

You're welcome. And right back at you, Shawna. Love to everybody. We are spreading the love we got. This is an important time in our world. Just we gotta be in this place of love and wonder and awe and kindness. Let's be good to each other. Okay? Let's be good to each other.

That's beautiful. Thank you.

I value the time we shared together today. Thank you for making time to be here and to continue taking steps towards growth and bringing more ease into your life. I'd love for us to stay connected on Instagram, ShawnaPodcasts or @the.grit.show. There's even a link in bio @the.grit.show where you can send me an email to let me know what you thought. Today's episode. Hearing from you helps to make the effort that goes into producing these episodes worthwhile. After all, you're why I'm here. And since it's been a while since you've heard this, you are the only one of you that this world has got.

And that really does mean something. I hope you realize that I'll be back again soon. And I hope you're following along or subscribed so that you'll know and be here too.