This week Charlie chats with Gabrielle Morse, gut health expert from The Gut Health clinic about gut health for runners - foods to avoid, how to add extra fibre into your diet and what gut training means!

Are energy gels are detrimental to gut health? How can runners optimise their gut health for better overall wellbeing?

Gut Health Basics

Gabrielle explains how gut bacteria affect everything from digestion to mental health. 

Top Tips for Runners

Discover easy ways to up your gut game. Think fibre, think variety, and learn how to fuel your runs with gut-friendly foods.

Gut Training 101

Learn about gut training for better fibre and carb tolerance. Gabrielle shares tricks for handling gut issues on the run.

Energy Gels: are they messing with your gut? 

Are gels gut villains? Gabrielle talks about emulsifiers and FODMAPs, while Charlie suggests some natural alternatives.

Processed Foods and Your Gut

Gabrielle highlights the fibre failings of ultra-processed foods and how to balance them with plant-based goodness.

Supplements: Yay or Nay?

Find out when probiotics and supplements might help, and why food should come first.

Don't miss out on the 10% discount on thi month’s featured products: Hummer gels and Supernatural Fuel energy pouches at XMiles with the code COOKEATRUN. 

Check out Charlie’s list of recommended natural gels below:

Veloforte 

Hilltop 

Spring 

RawVelo 

Activeroot. 

Find out more here - https://xmiles.co.uk/blogs/news/fuel-with-100-real-food 

Connect with Gabrielle Morse at the Gut Health Clinic for more tips.

Got fuelling and nutrition questions? Episode topic suggestions? - find Charlie online @therunnerbeans / www.therunnerbeans.com 

Grab a copy of Charlie’s book ‘Cook Eat Run’ 

The Cook Eat Run Podcast is sponsored by XMiles - the One Stop Nutrition Shop - use discount code COOKEATRUN for 10% off this month’s featured products at Xmiles.co.uk 

This podcast is proudly produced by Decibelle Creative decibellecreative.com / @decibelle_creative

>> Charlie: Welcome to the Cook Eat Run podcast with X Miles, hosted by

me, Charlie Watson. I'm a runner, a mum, an

NHS dietitian and author of the recipe

book for runners Cook Eat Run. I'm also

a 16 times marathoner and love nothing more than sharing what

I've learned along the way through a lot of trial and error.

Cook Eat Run is the go to podcast for running,

nutrition training tips, marathon debriefs and

more. I'm here to answer all your questions and fuel

you with the knowledge you'll need to run faster, further

and actually just to have more fun on the run. So whether

you're training for an ultra, want to improve your marathon

PB or simply just get more out of your

running, you're in the right place.

Hello and welcome back to the Cook Eat Run podcast

with X Miles and thank you for

joining us. today's topic is a little bit different than

promised. It is on gut health and looking

at are gels bad for our gut health? What can we do

as runners to a improve our gut health? I know I

promised an episode on nootropics and adaptogens

that is coming. Sorry for the delay, but thank you for

bearing with us. I'm hoping that you're going to enjoy

this Gut Health podcast just as much.

today I am talking to Gabrielle

Morse who works at the Gut Health Outpatient

clinic in London. She is also a guest lecturer at King's

Golledge London, works at hospital and

specialises in

neurogastroenterology with a breadth of experience

across gastroenterology conditions, with a specific

interest in women's health. I really love

chatting with her. Even as a dietitian myself, I feel like I

learned things. She went into a bit of a deep dive

into some areas of gut health that as a

neurodietian I don't often get to touch on

and also talked about some new research coming

out on how eating certain products that can look

after our gut health might aid recovery. So those are things that

I'm going to take on board in my own kind of

eating and wellness around running and

recovery and just fueling my really.

The Cook Run podcast is sponsored by

XMiles and they have kindly given us a

10% discount. As always, you know it

changes each month. This month we are focusing with

the kind of idea of gut health but we're focusing on

real food gels so you can save 10%

with the code cookeatrun on one of my favourite gels,

the Hummer gels which are ah, based on Chia seeds.

And also on the supernatural fuel energy

pouches, which are energy, pouches with a

whole food blend of fruits, seeds, nuts and grains

that provide carbs, protein and fat that are particularly

good for people on kind of ultra runs or,

long bike rides, that kind of thing. So cheque them out, give them a

try, save 10% with the code, cook, eat, run.

Gabby, thank you so much for joining us this week.

I'm so excited to talk to people about

gut health. I feel like it's quite a hot topic, or it

has been a, a hot topic for a while. And, what is

gut health?

>> Speaker B: Yeah, gut health has become this huge kind

of, buzzword really, that's really taken off and

it's kind of pure core in the kind of

science term, which is what we want to be defining as

not the kind of health halo term. gut health basically

refers to the trillions of gut bacteria that

live in our digestive system. And what we've realised in the last

maybe 20 years or so, is that our colon,

so our large intestine, that last metre of our

digestive system, was originally thought to be kind of redundant

and just this sort of tube that helped us make our stools.

And then about 20 years ago, we suddenly realised, actually, hang

on, this is full of trillions of bacteria.

And since then the science has just bloomed in the air and we've

realised that actually what these trillions of bacteria, yeast,

protozoa, fungi, are doing is, actually looking after our

whole body health. so I guess gut health really,

in that sense, it refers to the functioning of our gut, our entire

digestive system. So it refers to kind of how kind

of comfortably easily food

goes from kind of mouth to exit. but I think what's

really important to know about gut health as well is because we now know the

gut communicates with virtually every organ in our

body. We're not just thinking about kind of, our

digestion and kind of our bowel movements. We're also thinking about

things like our immune health as well. So how often we're sick,

how long it takes us to recover, how frequently

we have infections, how often we have to have antibiotics. So actually,

this kind of term of gut health is really all

encompassing and it really does think about your whole body

health as well, which I really love about it. Kind

of my specialist area as a dietitian is all about

disorders of the gut brain interaction. So I really focus

on how the gut and the brain communicate with each other. And

actually ibs is an example of a condition that I would

see within that specialist area. So again, defining

gut health is also going to involve things like your

mental health and wellbeing, your sleep, your stress

management and because of that bidirectional

relationship we have between the gut and the brain.

And so when we think about it kind of

the definition is really kind of far reaching. It

encompasses whole body health and I really love that about it.

>> Charlie: I mean I think that feels both

quite. As a

fellow dietitian, I quite like it. I feel like you can

literally feed your health. You know, the food is

medicine. That's how I kind of take it as like, you

know, you can look after your overall health

by eating well, by thinking about that kind of

thing. But what can we as runners

do to improve our gut health? So that

then it has a knock on effect to you know,

hopefully improved immunity, improved mental health, that kind of thing.

>> Speaker B: Sure. so I think there's, there's kind of quite a few parts

to this question really. I think first of all probably what's helpful to

understand is how kind of these gut microbes actually

relate to kind of gut health and what's going on there.

So we know that our gut microbes

are fantastic at fertilising the fibre in our

diet. So fibre coming from all of your plant based foods, so

your whole grains, lentils, beans and chickpeas,

nuts and seeds, herbs and spices, fruits and

vegetables, all of these plant based foods in your omega

3 containing foods as well as your omega 3 fatty

acids, all of these are ah, fermented by the

gut microbes and this produces these short chain fatty

acids. And these short chain fatty acids are then

involved in things like training your immune cells, your

hormonal health, your vitamin and mineral synthesis as

well.

>> Charlie: So what can we do as runners to

improve our mental health? That we look after our

ah, immune health, our mental health,

overall wellbeing.

>> Speaker B: so I think when I was kind of preparing in

advance this and thinking about how does running and gut health link because actually

in the science there's not heaps of research out

there. and that's because actually research tends to

focus on kind of clinical, chronic conditions

that doesn't tend to focus on

healthy individuals kind of taking up running, running. I think

what's really helpful to do in the first instance to take a step back and think

about the ways in which running might impact on

food choices and also things like gut

symptoms as well. So let's split that up again into two things.

So we know that actually there's a really high prevalence of

gastrointestinal symptoms being reported by runners.

So as running kind of frequency and intensity ramps up,

we know that people start to suffer a little bit more with things like

bloating, nausea, constipation, diarrhoea as well when

running, flatulence, belching, reflux.

So there's kind, there's two parts to it. The first thing is thinking about

managing those symptoms and thinking about how you

eat around that. and then the next thing is also

thinking about, well, how does running actually impact

on your food choices and how much time you've

got to be food shopping and preparing food as

well, because it's all well and good. Saying to

anybody, the message for gut health that we're

trying to help get everybody to is this

message of having 30 different plant based foods a

week in your diet. And that's all well and good and we'll absolutely

talk through some strategies today to get there. But

until you consider how your life actually looks

and how your activities and your running in particular

kind of impacts on your food choices. And I think, you

know, my favourite example, I've got consent from my

husband, but he has got into marathon running.

and you know, he's a classic example of someone who's gone from not

running to kind of doing marathons. Absolutely loves it. It's been

fantastic for his mental health. M

but he comes back from a run, he's absolutely exhausted, he

hasn't planned beforehand what he's going to have. So he goes straight to

the corner shop and picks up a packet of five pack of donuts

and that's his kind of post run refuelling. And he's like, well I've just

run for two hours, it doesn't matter,

I can have it. and so I think that's a real key thing

for me is actually just remembering that kind of running. It

takes a lot of time, but it was also very energy depleting as well.

So the thought of trying to come back and then think about

where am I going to get my plant diversity from, how am I going to quickly

make myself something that's kind of, of really, really, you know,

nourishing for myself and for my gut microbes and replenishes

my losses, it gets a little bit trickier. so

I think really what was coming up for me when I was thinking about this around

running is unfortunately going to be preparation is going to be

the main thing. what I love about working in this area of

gut health is, it's very maximalist. So we're always. The question, we

always ask is what can I add? What can I add to what I'm

currently having? So, I've been out kind of this

morning, little run, little cycle, little workout, come back

home and so really fancied something kind

of warming and satisfying and so

made myself a kind of big bowl of porridge. And in it I

put kind of grated apple, chia seed, flaxseed

yoghurt, dark chocolate and a pinch of salt.

And what I love about gut health is it's about kind of

taking your food that next step further and taking

standard porridge and adding to it chia seed,

flaxseed, apple, berries, dark chocolate,

nuts, nut butter. Because we know that each

of these individual plants is contributing to

better gut health. So the message is always what can I

add? and I think so, yeah, going back to kind of that

preparation thing as well. So, thinking about preparing these

snacks in advance and knowing that after run you're more likely to want

something sweet and knowing that kind of in the

supermarket your sweet options are probably going to be more of these sort of

ultra processed foods. And we can kind of dissect that in a

minute as well. but actually if in

advance you can pre make yourself like some

banana bread, but you could adapt the recipe to put in it some

oats and yoghurt. Some. I've even been making banana bread

recently with like cannellini beans in it as well for a bit more

protein. or you know, like kind of

need that recipe. Yeah, it's a work in progress. or

you know, like a kind of baked oats. But in that putting in your dark

chocolate apple yoghurt all these nice bits, I saw

this week, Dr. Megan Rossi, who runs the gut health clinic,

she's made a great, pumpkin soup recipe and in it

she's put kind of silk and tofu. So that's getting blended

into it. So then even your kind of soups and things, you could

put beans into it, tofu into it to get more protein in there

as well. and I guess that's the other thing about, I was saying at the

beginning about kind of navigating the gut symptoms

too, is that if after running you feel quite nauseous, then

maybe kind of having more sort of liquid foods is better for

you. But actually with those liquid foods we still need to

fortify it. So that pumpkin soup with the tofu and the beans

added into it might Be a good example for someone who does really

struggle with appetite, nausea, bloating after

a run, because actually generally kind of liquid food goes down, down

a little easier if you're feeling a bit uncomfortable.

so it's. Yeah, I think the first step is to take a step back and look

at kind of how are you eating at the minute, where's the diversity

coming from your diet? I wanted to pull on a bit of really

interesting research that I found in this area as well.

and essentially what it's found is that

in running there's this really big focus on carbohydrates

and carbohydrate loading. We go to kind of simple

carbohydrates to really get you there. the problem is that these

simple carbohydrates that are, ah, more of your kind of

white bread, white rice, white pasta, they

lack that variety thing. and in doing that it kind of

starved the gut microbes of the fibre that they're

after to produce these short chain fatty acids.

And actually what one study showed was that actually,

prioritising whole grains, although it didn't look like

that those people then met their carbohydrate

targets because the short chain fatty acids in the

gut are still relating to things like your glycogen

stores and actually the efficiency of your

metabolism actually to kind of steer

away slightly from I've got to meet my kind of, you know, macro

carb amount. But actually thinking about that diversity

and whole grain thing, there was some evidence to show

that even if you weren't kind of hitting it by numbers, actually the

glycogen load, and the kind of

efficiency, of the carbohydrate delivery was still

there.

>> Charlie: Wow, that is interesting because I know that a lot of

runners, myself included, when I'm m.

For the short period of time before a

marathon, when I'm carb loading, I

do try to limit too

much fibre just to try and avoid having any stomach issues

on race day. And also, as you say, it's just

easier to hit these carbohydrate targets

with simple carbs because they

just have higher carb levels, lower protein,

lower fibre, they're easier to eat

more of so that you can kind of almost

overeat them to hit those targets.

So it's really interesting to know that

actually even using whole grains, you can still get that kind

of availability, but in the short term with

like a pre marathon, three

day period, are we doing

harm by choosing those, you know,

are we doing long term harm to Our gut health by

choosing those easy, simple carbs?

>> Speaker B: No, not at all. Like the gut is really, really, really adaptable and these

kind of short term changes can be kind of easily

rectified the other side by going back onto your more kind

of like high fibre, plant, diverse diet.

And it is really commonly seen that people go onto this kind

of low fodmap, so low fermentable carbohydrate

diet, in the sort of week before race day

to kind of manage gut symptoms. The problem is

of course with any of those restriction style d science is

like they can be done short term for that benefit there

and then, but they are not a healthy, safe alternative long

term. We, we know that kind of long term following anything

too restrictive is harmful for kind of our gut microbiome plus

all of the other you know, risks of being deficient

in certain kind of foods, fibres, nutrients, those sorts of

things. so yeah, there's a lot to kind of

unpack within that. But fundamentally those short term

adaptations and lead up to race day are ah, no

problem whatsoever. It's just about kind of going the other side back

onto. And again, when I was doing a little bit of

research for this kind of interview that we're

having together today, I saw about kind of gut

training. and for me in the area that I work in,

I talk about gut training for fibre tolerance. But in the running

world you talk about gut training for your carbohydrate tolerance and

kind of more in the sort of stomach, whereas I've been talking about

gut training for fibre, for the kind of large intestine, for

the colon as well. And so, you know, I think what's,

what's another thing that's kind of important to know is that if at

the minute your diet as a runner is maybe more

focused on these kind of simple carbs because you're training a lot and

you're tired and you know, we get in a rut with what we

eat as well. We tend to eat the same few foods on repeat.

if after this you're thinking, actually maybe I do want to start thinking

about my overall gut health a little bit more, I'm interested on how it

can kind of improve my kind of overall health, my energy

levels, my immune health, that sort of thing.

And specifically in running as well, where there is a gut

musculoskeletal axis as well, so there's a gut muscle

axis. So actually better gut health is linked to things

like better kind of muscles, protein

synthesis, muscle Recovery as well. So it's, you

know, it's really beneficial for runners too. but if you're

currently not having heaps of diversity in your diet, so

if your diet's currently same few foods on repeat, same few

meals on repeat, you've got to do a bit of training with your

gut from the fibre perspective as well as practising with

your carbohydrates for your event. So if I suddenly, you know,

if at the minute, if you don't really eat much in the way of like chickpeas

or I don't know, butternut squash or sweet

potato, whatever, I always give the example of like, if you don't eat much of those

foods and I give you for dinner this evening like a heaped bowl of a

chickpea curry, you're going to think I'm really bad at my job

because you're going to feel really bloated and you're going to really, really not like

me at all. But you know, something we love talking

about the gut health clinic is doing this gut training with

fibre whereby you would take like a tin of

chickpeas, rinse them really, really well, get rid of that starchy

water and start by adding them like a

small amount each day to one of your meals

the course of the week you're having like a tablespoon

of chickpeas each day and that's going to start to

train your gut, your lower gut, to tolerate those foods a

bit better. and again, actually, you know, kind of

training your gut in that way can improve general food

sensitivities as well. And you know, I saw in the research earlier

that actually IBS is still just

as prevalent in kind of, you know, performance

athletes as it is the general population. And so there is

a lot to be said for kind of fibre training, for

the running population too. so I think that's a helpful

tool. And we talk about things like maybe getting some frozen

vegetables. And so if at the minute you're just having kind of

scrambled eggs on toast as a kind of post run

fueling thing, could you have like a

handful of edamame beans, a handful of peas and a

tablespoon of chickpeas with that as well, put some herbs and

spices over it and then you're doing that thing of kind of

slowly exposing your gut to more of those plant based

foods. And you know, as it would go, your kind of

edamame beans, peas and chickpeas are going to provide a little bit

of plant protein as well, so it just offers you up that way

to get the diversity up in your diet.

>> Charlie: And all of those things are really easy to have like in your cupboard or

freezer just to, you know, cheap,

available, don't have to worry

about using them up within a certain timeframe. So.

Yeah, I love that. And actually, yeah, what you're saying about

gut training, I talk about it so much, trying to train your gut

to get used to taking gels when you're running at,

intensity. Because so many people are like, oh, I

have, I can't tolerate gels, I have stomach problems, I can't

have them. But actually I think it's just that

obviously that's a lot of carbohydrates to be

consuming in one go and

while on the run, whilst also putting your body

under quite high stress because you're running it like

faster paces than you often do in

training. If we

can tolerate them or building up the of gut, your

gut training to tolerate them, are we,

are they okay for our gut health having

these carbohydrate gels that are essentially 30

grammes of sugar?

>> Speaker B: Yeah. So there's no like data available

on kind of, you know, having the gels, gut health, that

sort of thing. It's just not researched at all. Or not. I

could see. Anyway, I think what we always have to do is kind of

like take a little bit of a step back as always. Right. And kind of first

of all cheque in on things like the ingredients list within

them. we know that things like emulsifiers for

example, are something that are now commonly found

in lots of our ultra processed foods. And certainly a

lot of those gels are going to contain emulsifiers as well.

And it's important to be aware that like, we now think that

emulsifiers, are potentially explaining the increase

in risk of things like, inflammatory bowel disease

as well. And so it's not what I'm saying here at all. These

gels are going to cause you inflammatory bowel disease. But

it's just to say that like, if these are something that you're having on the

regular and they do contain emulsifiers and you're having lots of

them, it's just an aware awareness that they are something

that perhaps might be better swapped to something that you could make

yourself instead, if that is an option.

>> Charlie: There are actually also loads of really

natural gels on the market made from real

foods. Things like, there's ones that are like maple

syrup or agave syrup and things like that that actually

perfect have shorter ingredients lists,

real food, you don't have to be stressing in the kitchen

before your long runs. There are, are

options and I will try and actually pull a list together of

the ones that X miles sell for the

show notes for this for anyone interested in that.

>> Speaker B: Perfect, great. And then I guess just the second thing about the

gels as well is just this awareness that

some of them will contain fodmaps in them as well. And we

touched upon fodmaps a moment ago in the sense of like some

people go on like a low fodmap diet before

big events to kind of reduce guts and, and these

fodmaps are basically your fermentable carbohydrates and

they're water soluble and in a nutshell their action in the

body is that they can draw in water so they can

kind of increase water delivery into the large intestine

and they can also increase

fermentation as well. So they increase gas production in the gut

too. So some of the gels available might be causing

you gut upset because they are actually quite high

in some of the polyols, which is the sugar alcohols. They might

contain lots of things like sorbitol, mannitol,

xylitol. So it's just kind of an awareness

that they, and that's not going to cause you long term damage at all. But it's just

to say that like you might not have realised it but that

might actually be the thing that you're quite sensitive to

within those gels as well. So it's just helpful to be aware

because I know there are kind of low fodmap gels available

but I imagine like some of the kind of ones you pick up

like on the go in a supermarket if you've sort of forgotten to bring them with

you or whatever, will probably have more kind of fodmaps in them.

>> Charlie: Yeah, I find they're often in protein

bars. It's so hard to

get a protein bar that doesn't have sugar

alcohols in it like in the uk.

It's almost impossible. Especially as you said like the

on the go, the post rate run where

you're starving in the corner shop, you want something, you know, you

need the protein, you want something quick,

sweet, sweet, easy that you can grab and go. But

actually yeah, for me I don't deal well with

them. I know that they cause me stomach upset so

I avoid them pretty much at all costs.

But it's hard. Yeah, it's really difficult to find them.

But yeah, that I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to look more closely at some

of the gels that I like and use. I know they don't have sugar

alcohols in, but just to look at the kind of

ingredients list and see what they, what they do contain will

be interesting.

>> Speaker B: But yeah, I definitely don't want anything too kind of fear

mongering to come across there with the gels at all. It's just the

awareness that like for some of them they're going to be slightly more ultra

processed than others.

>> Charlie: And talking of kind of ultra processed, what

impact do ultra processed foods. I know that

again it's a very hot topic at the moment.

What impact do ultra processed foods have

on our gut health? I've got. For those

interested, I've got a whole podcast episode

with Nicola Raynham about.

I'm gonna have to insert that. I've got a whole podcast

episode with another

dietitian on ultra processed foods and their impact on

our kind of body and health. But specifically

gut health. What kind

of. I'm guessing negative impact impacts have

on.

Yeah.

>> Speaker B: So I'm sure when you spoke through that with

Nicola Ludlow.

Yeah, Nicola London Rain. Yeah, yeah. When you went

through. I've got no doubt that that episode with

Nick, she would have broken through the kind of nuances

within this as well. Right. And actually the kind of

different classifications for your processed foods and actually

like your cereal products for example. So the bread

and cereals and kind of whole grain products are actually

about to be beneficial for our gut health. I mean

fundamentally what is really difficult to say is actually

the definite answer on what the

specific issue is and the mechanism through which it's

working. But we think that the kind of

increase in ultra processed foods, as I sort of mentioned earlier

with the emulsifiers, is potentially being linked to more

incidences of things like inflammatory bowel disease

and more incidence of things like colon cancer as

well. I guess in a kind of

more empowering approach to it is to think about that

if our gut microbes thrive on

fibre and if, and we know that kind of,

the more optimal our gut health, the more this lowers your risk

of things like type 2 diabetes, dementia,

stroke, colon cancer. The more that you

can see the role that fibre plays a role in

optimal gut health. And I guess the main thing that a lot of these

ultra processed foods will lack is fibre.

So there's kind of, you know, there's long ingredients list in there and the

kind of specific Emulsifiers, additives, everyone's still trying

to work, out which the real problems are in what

quantity, how often. And that data doesn't really exist to

say, you know, if you have, X

food, ah, X, many times a week, you are going to get

X. And I think again, it's all about these kind of

huge, huge differences in how we all eat and

live our day to day life and, you know, kind of

food choices on the go versus home cooked meals. And

there is just so much that goes into it. And so I don't want to kind

of boil it down to be too

negative or too oversimplified. And in a cost of living

crisis as well, we've got to be really mindful about our language.

but I think the one kind of consensus opinion that we

certainly share in the gut health Space is that these ultra processed

foods are, going to lack the fibre that really

nourishes our good gut microbes and really leads to those kind

of healthful benefits. and I think that's a

more empowering bottom line to land on because I think

there is just so much fear mongering in the Space

now. and everyone's getting a bit too

worried, scared, fearful, obsessive

even over these ultra processed foods. But actually

like, they're virtually unavoidable in our day to day life.

And fundamentally, you know, that they're processed because it means

they taste better. And we're just humans who, you

know, like some chocolate. And

so again, and, you know, the thing that we always come

back to in clinic is talking about, well, how can we

have these foods, but how can we make it a bit more mindful and again, what can

we add to it? So take your chocolate but turn

it into a bowl with like yoghurt, nuts, frozen

berries, banana and put your chocolate on top of it.

Or, you know, if it's Friday evening and you've done a big run,

or you haven't done a big run, but it's Friday evening and you want a kind of

pizza to go sort of thing, or can you

put on that any more? can you put any more veggies with it?

Can you get some, you know, olives from the cupboard and

put it on there, can you have it with like a side of edamame,

beans, peas, peas and green beans.

So it's trying to think about what's workable within your life

as well around these ultra processed foods because they're not going anywhere.

>> Charlie: Finally, a Hawaiian pizza is coming into its

own here. Getting your Pineapple on there?

>> Speaker B: Yes.

>> Charlie: so we've talked a bit about kind of fibre

and how runners can

like try to aim for Those kind of

30 different plants over the week to

try to benefit their gut health. Are there any

supplements, things like prebiotics,

probiotics, omega 3 you mentioned

on that they could be

supplementing with, to help with their gut health. Health.

>> Speaker B: so I had a look and there was a great, kind of

systematic review or just like a literature synthesis,

from 2021 that I looked at and that spoke

about kind of the research as it stood on probiotics

at the time. And I think what I would say about probiotics

is that they are as specific as a medicine. So like

if you have a headache and you're not

going to take a medicine for like a

diuretic, like you're going to take paracetamol and

it's the same thing. So with probiotics

we know much more about them in the sense of

like specific kind of gut complaints

that they can improve. So we know which ones improve things

like diarrhoea or constipation and we know which ones

improve things like antibiotic associated diarrhoea.

What we don't really know is the specifics within running,

about kind of which ones may or may not be helpful.

and kind of within it as well. Again, like, some studies will look at like single

strains, some will look at multi strains and when you take a

strain and then you turn into a multi strain, you then need to know what all the other

strains are up to in that probiotic as well. Do any of them

compete with each other? The other thing with probiotics is also

like the method of delivery as well. So is it going to survive the acid

in your stomach? So if it's a liquid bacteria, is it actually

going to reach, you know, that gut kind of eight metres later

alive? Possibly now not. so the data isn't

really there on like the specific probiotic, or

bacterial strains that might benefit runners.

There are kind of anecdotally people, some studies that showed

that kind of, you know, a mix of strains, single strains, people

found helpful but really flawed research only

on men. Study size maximum 30 people. So

very poor generalised

generalizability. and I think the thing

that people maybe don't understand with probiotics as well is

that really, you know, we feel that they're a short term thing,

they're kind of like a three month thing. And the goal with probiotics

is that actually after that point in time,

you then nourish your own gut microbiome through

having a lovely varied diet. Your 30 plant based

foods, omega 3 rich foods as well. So the goal

of probiotics is not like lifelong, it's not to

use them lifelong, it's to use them for short periods of time

and then your diet should then be able to kind of supplement

thereafter. And that's a really important thing as well. And I

think that's probably the thing with supplements as well is we're

always going to say food first, that's always going to be the best way to get

these foods because we know that that's the best bioavailability.

and it's again about things like for example

magnesium supplements, for example. You know, magnesium comes up a

lot as being kind of helpful for like muscle

relaxation and sleep and recovery. But

actually certain forms of magnesium can really increase

diarrhoea when you take it as a supplement. So

you know, if you're wanting to kind of think about taking any supplement

supplements, go for it if you want to. There's not heaps

of evidence and again there's never the right evidence there on

like all the kind of the quantity

and the duration that you should be having these things for. So

try them if you want them and if they make you feel suddenly like

you're, you know, flying above and doing

really well, then great, you know, continue. But actually if you introduce

something and you think actually I, this is upsetting my tummy, this doesn't

feel right, I've got a headache, like I'm not sure

and stop it and see whether those symptoms go away. in

general, yeah, kind of less pro,

additional supplements, obviously things like vitamin D helpful for

everybody year round. And I think if we look at the

kind of weather we've had this year and climate crisis

and those sorts of things, probably we should all be taking vitamin

D all year round by this point. and again I

think it goes back to the fact that actually so many of

your micronutrients provided by your plant based

foods that nourish the gut microbiome are also foods

that can really help with recovery after running as well. So

your B vitamins, your iron, calcium,

magnesium, zinc, so all of these you can get from your

plant based foods. So if you can train your gut to

tolerate more fibre and kind of adding a little bit here and

there, take your pesto pasta, put some chickpeas,

put some green beans, put some peas, some frozen

broccoli with it, you Know if you can start training

your gut to tolerate more of these foods, hopefully you can get it all from a

food first approach which is always going to be preferred by

the body and less likely to you those kind of

unwanted symptoms. I did see some slightly promising

research in the field of fermented

foods and perceived kind of

recovery from running as well. There was

small study, lots of flaws as always. But some, one

study did look at kind of adding in things like

sauerkraut, sauerkraut

kimchi and kefir yoghurt with a

potential improvement in how people felt they

recovered afterwards. And I've seen research

before that kind of randomised some footballers, I can't

remember if we're talking Premier League or kind of Saturday

fund league, that they randomised them to.

One group was given dark chocolate each day a couple of

squares, another group wasn't giving it. And the group

that had the dark chocolate perceived to have better recovery

and less muscle soreness as well. So really

interesting. And again, you know, from a gut health perspective, we

would love dark chocolate for the polyphenols. Yeah. And

that'd be something that I would say, you know, add dark chocolate to

your porridge snacks, you have yoghurt, all these sorts of

things.

>> Charlie: A dream. Any excuse to add more chocolate

into my diet. I will absolutely take dark

chocolate. Dark chocolate. I do, I do have

dark chocolate but just quickly on that. I use the

US probiotic guide for like

this.

>> Speaker B: Yeah.

>> Charlie: People are wanting to use

probiotics for the short term, whether it's for a course of

antibiotics or, or they've got diarrhoea or they're

travelling and they're worried about getting travellers diarrhoea. I find

that quite helpful to just cross reference to make sure you're

taking the right probiotic for

what you want it for. so I'll leave.

>> Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So just kind of matching, matching the problem

with the strain, and the kind of

bacteria. Sorry. The probiotics themselves should

have three parts to their name as well. So if you just see

like contains bifidobacterium, that's not specific

enough. so for example with like the antibiotic

associated diarrhoea, we know we need Lactobacillus

ramnus, GG and then a yeast Saccharomyces

boulardii. so it's down to the specifics and again

even within that there's actually then a recommended kind of colony

forming unit that's required as well and the duration.

So it's just at the minute the specifics aren't

there. and I think where,

because the issue is basically is that everyone lives their lives so

differently and so so many of these studies that look at kind

of like we were saying earlier about those other studies that looked at kind

of prebiotic supplements in running as well with really

varied results. And that's because for some people like

a prebiotic is a fertiliser. So your

prebiotic foods are all fertilisers for your gut microbes.

So most of your kind of fibrous foods, but things like kind of

onion, garlic, wheat would be really good examples of some

prebiotic fibres. But for some people those are

foods that can cause discomfort and

bloating if your gut perhaps isn't so

adaptable at tolerating those foods, breaking it down and

fermenting it. So there's just huge individual

differences. which is why it's worthwhile I guess playing around

with these things yourselves. because it's all

well and good saying oh the studies didn't find anything. But that's

because sometimes the studies find it's really helpful for some and

not helpful for others. So it kind of net balances out to no

effect.

>> Charlie: Yeah, and interesting that

some of the ones you found were just on men. I think that's a, could

be a whole different topic in itself on

science and health in men

versus women and then training

and you know, nutrition suggestions

for performance in men and women. Anyway, I could

go on a whole tangent about that. But so

we obviously both have a food first kind of

priority when it comes to not only

gut health but just overall kind of wellbeing.

What about green powders? I've seen them all over my

Instagram. I have some downstairs in my cupboard

that I want to try because I feel like I have a very strong opinion

on them without having ever tried them. What are your thoughts

and your kind of evidence based

opinion on them?

>> Speaker B: Yeah, I would say it's probably

overwhelmingly on the more negative side.

so as we sort of mentioned earlier, like when you're kind of giving

your body all of your plant based foods in their whole

form, so you know, even if it's kind of cooked and

then turned into a soup or a smoothie, but if you have it

quickly, the kind of, the beneficial compounds that

go beyond fibre, things like the polyphenols and the fruits as

well are still kind of live active,

helpful, and available as well. But

the more that your kind of all of These foods are

taken and they are heat treated and processed and blitzed

and powdered and stored for longer life as well.

Those really beneficial things like the polyphenols,

they don't have a long shelf life once they've been kind

of heat treated, processed, broken down.

and actually we know that a lot of these green powders, again, like they

kind of can be quite, they can either be too high in fibre or too low

in fibre. and the other thing to say as well is that a lot of the time

they will contain a lot of prebiotic

fibres too. And the prebiotics, as we said a moment ago,

so these are the fibres that kind of really nourish the

gut microbes, kind of the fertiliser for the gut.

But when they're put into really concentrated

doses like this, you can actually end up having like the

equivalent of, I don't know, something like eight apples for example. And

actually apples might be a food that you might be a bit sensitive to

and it might be that you can tolerate like a quarter

of an apple absolutely fine. But when you have the

equivalent of, you know, six or so dehydrated,

processed, blitz up apples, actually that causes you some

discomfort. And I think, you know, we know that things

like IBS is incredibly common, in the general

population. It's just as common in the running population as well and

even in kind of high performance athletes.

and so these are the kind of foods that can actually trigger some gut

symptoms as well. So try it, be really

curious and open minded and be really, Well,

I guess, you know, I don't necessarily want you to go looking for it because if you go

looking for it, the gut can often present with these symptoms anyway.

but if you notice that you are a bit more bloated,

gurgly uncomfortable, any change

to your bowel habits at all and stop. And it's probably not the right thing. And

again, food first. I know, it's just, it's not sexy advice, is

it? But, it's, it's the best bit. It's.

>> Charlie: Yeah, it's not sexy. And it's also, it feels

like it's more work, isn't it? Because you want to be able

to order something online, it turns

up, you take your shot of it, right, I'm done, I've ticked the box.

Whereas it's actually like plan your

breakfast, your lunch, your dinner, your snacks, your, you know, do your

food. It's more labour intensive, but it is

worth it. interestingly So I have

one of the leading, you know, the most popular, I'd

say greens brand in my cupboard

downstairs and it contains sweetener which I try to

avoid because I know I don't process it well. And I

was actually quite disappointed because I don't feel like it's

that clear in their marketing that

it does contain sweetener until it.

>> Speaker B: Yeah, I think the main thing I'd say as well is that like the

more you're not preparing your food, the less in control

you are of what's going into it as well. And you

know like sweeteners are kind of highly debated anyway. Are they good,

are they not good? Like da da da. but fundamentally like they are

something that a lot of people are sensitive to. And so you go to these

powders because you think like great quick fix but you're not in control of the

products in there. And actually they can lead to diarrhoea and

urgency and bloating and all these unpleasant

symptoms that actually, you know, if you just grated half an

apple and put it in your porridge in the morning you'd get all the benefits

you're after in a tolerable way.

>> Charlie: Yeah. And also I don't another

again, maybe I should do a whole podcast episodes on

greens because I would have thought

surely let's get some vitamin D and ever in these

given that the advice is that we all supplement. But actually

again they don't contain either they don't contain vitamin D

or they have less than the recommended daily dose. So I'm like, I

feel like they've missed it.

>> Speaker B: or they contain like vitamin D2 rather than

vitamin D3 as well. You know sometimes they put them in but in like the

cheat inactive form as well.

>> Charlie: I feel like we could probably talk about that for longer than people

want.

Let me know guys if you do want a kind of a

full greens episode. because I'm

sure that I could go down on a full tangent on

this. I think that, I mean I feel like I've learned

stuff today so thank you so much and hopefully it's been

beneficial for people listening about how they

can improve their gut health which can have knock on

effects for their immune health, their ah, mental health,

their skeletal health. And if you have

one, had one like kind of takeaway for

people, if you could, you know, sum up your

one big piece of advice or a little piece of

advice, what would it be?

>> Speaker B: it would have to be what can I add and where is the colour

coming from? So kind of Thinking about what can you add to

what you're already having. Think maximalist.

And I think it's also about kind of pushing boundaries on

flavours that you think go together as well because actually like

put some herbs and spices on everything and it goes together really

nicely.

>> Charlie: Thank you so much. Where can people find you if they

have, you know, want to talk more with you and you know, booking a

appointment and to discuss their, ah, personal gut

health with you?

>> Speaker B: Yes. So we're at the Gut Health Clinic, so through

Dr. Megan Rossi, we're part of her Gut Health clinic team. You can

book in to see us, four of us in clinic.

>> Charlie: Brilliant. I will leave the links to that in the show notes. Thank you

so much.

>> Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me.

>> Charlie: Thank you so much for listening. Good luck to everyone running New York

Marathon this weekend. Don't forget to say save

10% across the Hummer gels and

the super natural fuel energy pouches

on X Miles with the code cookeatrun at

checkout. I'll also leave a link below. You should also

see in the show notes a list of some of my favourite real

food gels from xmiles and we're going to be talking

about some of them in later, episodes. So keep an eye out

or just order some and give them a try. I think the best way to find

a fuel that works for you is trial and error.

Thank you so much for listening to Cook Eat Run, the podcast

hosted by me, Charlie Watson, sponsored by X Miles.

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