This podcast episode features a thoughtful and engaging conversation with Jivi Saran, a respected leadership advisor, professor, and executive coach. At the heart of the discussion is the need to rethink what leadership looks like in today’s fast-moving, digital-first world, especially as many traditional models fall short by overlooking the human side of work. Jivi draws from her experience working with over 300 leaders to show how clarity, emotional intelligence, and self-awareness can drive not only stronger performance, but healthier, more sustainable cultures.

Throughout the episode, we explore her unique approach to leadership, which centers on authenticity, connection, and conscious decision-making. She challenges leaders to move beyond command-and-control styles and instead create environments where people feel seen, supported, and empowered to do their best work. As Jivi shares her journey and insights, it becomes clear that the future of leadership isn’t just about strategy or execution. It’s about presence, purpose, and leading in a way that allows both individuals and organizations to grow together.

Takeaways:

1. Jivi Saran emphasizes the necessity for leaders to cultivate emotional intelligence for authentic connections within organizations.
2. An exploration of leadership reveals that traditional models often overlook the importance of self-awareness and personal identity.
3. The concept of conscious capitalism is presented as essential for sustainable business practices that benefit both people and the planet.
4. Jivi advocates for the integration of personal values in the workplace to foster a positive organizational culture and enhance employee satisfaction.
5. The importance of self-reflection and personal growth is highlighted as a pathway to effective leadership and organizational transformation.
6. Through experiential learning techniques, leaders can create environments that encourage open dialogue and foster innovative thinking in their teams.

Material referenced in this episode:

1. quantumbusinessgrowth.ca
2. Put the Moose on the Table
3. Permission To Be YOU

Welcome to the eh list. Today's guest is Jivi Suran.

She's a leadership advisor, professor and executive coach, helping redefine what leadership looks like in an increasingly digital world. Over her career, she's helped 300 leaders scale with clarity and purpose.

Jivi also teaches organizational behavior at universities across Canada and Australia. And she's the founder of Quantum Business Growth, which is a firm focused on aligning profit with purpose through conscious leadership.

Jivi's often known as the CEO whisperer. She blends strategy, psychology and human insight to help leaders build businesses that last. Thank you for joining us today, Jivi.

It is my honor.

So Jivi, you studied leadership at Royal Rhodes University. What pulled you towards leadership instead of a conventional business path?

I was actually working at the time for what I know today to be a toxic leader. So somebody who did not have emotional control, somebody who was command and control dictatorship.

Thou shalt listen as I tell you to do what you're going to do and you will not go outside of those boundaries.

And so what I was starting to learn was I actually my pathway started because I wanted to learn how to deal with them because I thought there was something wrong with me.

So I started doing some courses at the Justice Institute thinking that maybe my communication needs to be different, I need to communicate differently. That didn't help the situation.

And then I decided to pursue a MBA specializing in leadership and at that time looked at multiple, you know, universities. And what I found at railroads was that they were very heart centered, intellect following, but heart forward.

And so that was what I was thinking that leadership needs to be so hence why that kind of, yeah, toxic leadership actually started the trajectory of me learning about what leadership should be.

Well, it's very self reflective of you to think how can I improve myself because the situation doesn't appear to work out. Unfortunate that you did find out that that was the type of situation you were in.

But every time we fall, when we get up, we tend to be in a better place. And it sounds like that was the case for you.

Indeed, indeed. I don't think I would be where I am today had that situation not occurred.

So during your mba, did you already sense that traditional leadership models maybe were incomplete in the Canadian economy?

Indeed, what I was noticing was that people were disconnected from themselves. So leadership had become very robotic. These are the key performance indicators. You must perform these KPIs.

If you don't perform these KPIs, your worthiness is impacted, your value is impacted.

So we were working in a very KPI driven kind of environment, and leaders had lost the sense of, who are they when they come into, you know, the boardroom table? Who are they when they come into the organization? So, you know, simple things like. Actually, I'll walk you through this morning.

I was coming in to do this podcast. I must have pulled out two business, you know, suits to wear to this podcast, because that's what, robotically I'm supposed to do.

I'm supposed to dress a certain way to be in a certain environment. And I had to take a moment, literally stood in my closet and said, wait a minute, who am I and who am I showing up for at this podcast?

My shawl is my identity. You know, I was known as the shawl lady in many organizations, and I put that suit back, Brandon. So I think that's what's missing in leadership.

Thank you for that, Jivi. I think the.

The more personality we can show in our daily life, it allows people to connect more with us and not just see us as a robotic figure, rather a human being that we can build authentic relationships and grow with.

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

If you could describe your younger self in one word, what would it be and why?

I would say a mystic, and I'm a seeker of the truth, regardless of what it is.

I've been known as the walker between the worlds, so I'm very strong in business acumen, but I'm also very strong in energy and understanding how to use frequency and coherence and vibration within an organization. So. So that's. I would say a mystic is one word, but more so, you know, a seeker of the truth.

It's like, okay, how do we figure out, you know, what is truth to that person, and how do we match that in leadership?

We've never had that answer, so I'm very curious to pull on that a little bit. Jivi.

So how do you assess energy in a business environment when people perhaps have a bit of a cloak on top of them, so to speak, where they're not necessarily showing who they are?

I would say intuition. So you've probably. Well, let's do a little experiment. Brandon, have you ever walked into a room and you're like, something doesn't feel right?

Oh, definitely right.

That's energy. Yeah. Something has just occurred there that, you know, is causing you to go, wait a minute, something doesn't feel right here.

Or have you ever noticed when you're in a conversation with somebody and you kind of move back? That is energy. Yeah, but there's intuition involved. So I might go in.

I might be talking to a CEO and they're telling me things, and I will very kindly and courteously say, you know, what are you not telling me? So what I do is I shift it to curiosity. I take my intuition. I follow through on my own. I follow through on my intuition 100%.

So if I'm being guided that way, I'll just simply ask a question as to what are you not telling me, or is there something else I should know? It feels like you're holding back. And then the other person can say, no, no, I've told you everything. I'm not holding back.

Or they can say, yeah, this is what I'm not telling you. And I think there is, Brandon, a kindness that's laced in there. Like it doesn't have energy behind my question.

I'm simply just posing a question that just doesn't feel right. Or I'll often use moose on the table. I'll say, is there a moose we need to put on the table?

You know, and so then it becomes language in the businesses as well.

I've never heard that moose on the table analogy. Is that like an elephant in the room?

Similar to that, yeah. But it was a newer concept that came out a few years ago is a book called Put the Moose on the Table. Okay, yeah, yeah.

While you're at Royal Rhodes, it sounded like you knew you were going to do something a bit unconventional. Can you tell us a bit about how your career unfolded after that program and why?

It was fairly gradual.

So after I finished my MBAs, you know, and of course, specializing in leadership studies, I started to realize that leadership could be different and that you could behave differently and still get, if not better results, but at least the same, which meant that I could be nurturing and compassionate and understanding and have empathy for people with strong boundaries. Of course, I understand that organizations do have performance indicators, but the whole language is not around the KPI.

It's around the behavior that's related to the KPI. So if there's a KPI that's 90% comes in at 28%, we can ask, say, what made it 28% and not 20%. We don't say why is it not 99%.

We say what made it 28%, and then you leverage that 8% to grow from there. So I think it was a gradual process from there. I started my original PhD at Fielding University at the time. And then life happens, Brandon.

And so, you know, I had gone through two semesters and then took a bit of a break.

You Know, there were health issues that, you know, I think in high pressure work, like especially government work, finance industry, there's a lot of stress, there's a lot of overwhelm. And for me, I didn't realize it until I crashed.

So I did not have appropriate self care, did not have appropriate, you know, self awareness to know.

And so from there, you know, I took a bit of a break and then started working in the finance industry after that break and started working with some amazing C suite people, amazing organizations that are heart centered.

And I had promised that organization I would be there three years and today I'm there nine years simply because of the connections that you make with colleagues and the clients that you serve. And then that started off my PhD in spirituality. And so I was really interested, Brandon, in who am I?

Like just answering that question about who am I? And if you look back at my grade four cursive notes like we in India. I did my education in India in a boarding school.

I was born here, but my education is from India and we had to learn cursive writing. And so in grade four you'll see my journals, they say who am I? Who am I? Just because I liked the way it felt.

I didn't know what it meant, but I loved the way the cursive writing felt for it. So yeah, that started off my PhD at the University of Sedona in mystical research at the time and then converted into business ethics.

It's okay, how do we bring spirituality into business ethics? And that was my first book that came out of my studies there, which was called Permission to be you.

So how do we go into an organization and give ourselves permission to be ourselves? And it was a workbook for leaders to say, how do you behave when somebody does show up as themselves?

Because it's a myth that people leave their problems at home. We don't leave our problems at home. When we come into the work environment, they just show up differently in the work.

Yeah, it shows up as overwhelm because being on edge, you know, somebody says something, in a normal situation you might not react and you react because something else is going on in the background. Yeah. And that started my doctorate into business. So I'm currently in my third year of my doctorate at Royal Road.

So I went Back as an alumni to do my, and I'm studying right now, the evolution of consciousness within the organization. So how do we grow as a collective consciousness? And what role does spiritual intelligence play within quantum business and quantum leadership?

Well, I look forward to reading some of your research, jv.

I think that's so necessary today when much of the culture and community in business is being influenced from a digital age where people feel the need to perhaps be a certain way rather than be themselves. And so how did you make that transition in towards spirituality from your original mba?

And how did you know that that was the right path in order to help you be the best version of you?

Thank you. I don't think there was a transition. I think this is just who I was. I would say it was an unfolding. So it was more.

Like, how do you live while understanding that you have an invisible inspiring date on your body? So I was teaching meditations. That world was separate than my world in healthcare, which was business or organizational development work.

So this coach who is now a really good friend, she said, gb, why are those two worlds different for you? And they were very different. So one did not know of the other world.

And I said to her, I said, well, people in business wouldn't be accepting of this gv and this GV would be perceived as woo woo over here, you know, so therefore they're not aligned. And that question actually, yeah, led into today where I thought, if I can't be aligned in who I am, how can I expect other people to be aligned?

So what does that mean if I marry both of those GVs, the meditative GV and the business acumen GV, what does that look like? And so, yeah, that started. So I don't think it was a transition. It was more of an unfolding.

Yeah, I love that. Because ultimately each of those two jivvies would have only been showing up half in each situation rather than being the true you.

Indeed.

And when you made that unfolding, how did that impact your business relationships or your spiritual relationships?

My business relationships became very niche. So be right, because I'm not, you know, at times I might not go into a construction company and say, hey, you guys want to meditate with me?

You know, even though that has happened, you know, in some, in some construction companies, but you have to know your audience, right? And so the way I showed up in certain. I showed up as myself, but I shifted how I spoke based on the audience. So I was working.

If I'm working with an engineering company or a construction company, where I knew that, you know, I wasn't going to get them to be coloring Mandelas in a workshop, I might just use my curiosity and just ask really deep questions. And sometimes they would just stare at me, and I would say, well, where does that come from? You know, and they would be like, what do you mean?

You're doing a behavior that's negative, and there's got to be root causes as to why you're doing it.

As a matter of fact, now that I think back, I think I was more worried about my spiritual group not accepting my business acumen than it was the other way around, because I thought that that group, that social network, would be like, oh, she's corporate and, you know, she's all of these. She wears a business suit and carries a rolly laptop bag. You know, those kinds of things. And so I think that was harder for me was that side.

Would they accept that there is this very strong GV that has very strong business acumen?

And how did it actually play out?

Amazing. Absolutely amazing. I think we. The monsters in our head, I think, are bigger than what actually happens in reality. And you know what?

Honestly, people fell off. You know, I had friends that fell off, and I had business acquaintances that fell off and. But that's just the reality of the hero's journey, right?

Like, if you look back at Joseph Campbell's, you know, hero's journey, when you're at that peak and you've made them, you know, move to where you're going, there's that peak of despair, right? Like, did I make the right choice? Maybe I should have kept the world separate. Maybe I shouldn't amalgamated.

But then there's this rise on the other side where people start falling off that don't serve that next level of your journey. That was beautiful as well. I'm just as comfortable saying goodbye to somebody with love and kindness and care as I invite someone into my network.

Well, everyone's on their own journey anyway, right?

So as you become more transparent about who you are to both sides of your work and personal life, you may push others on their own journey to hopefully do the same, right?

If you can't lead by example when you're writing and creating all this content to support a lot of this research that you've done, you won't necessarily make as big of an impact, but it sounds like you're living it and you're continuing to sharpen your saw to put out better content for the world. So thank you, Jivi.

You're welcome.

So your career, Jivi, spends through healthcare consulting, coaching, advisory work. Would you say it's spirituality that connects all your pieces? Or if not, what would it be?

I would say self identity is what connects everything. I think understanding what your identity is, who you are as a person, what your triggers are, what gets you upset. I'll give you an example.

As I was driving here, one of the streets has closed off because there's a protest.

And because I was born into that religion, the reason why that protest is happening, I had an urge to pull off to the side, to stop and get out of my car to see what was going on. And of course I was going to be late for this if I did that. So I didn't do that. But I think that's a part of our self identity.

If we don't know who we are, Brandon, how are we going to go out there and help other people? It's really that simple for me. Like 8 billion people out in the world, more than 8 billion now, every single person runs their own algorithm.

There's Nobody who's done GV's, education, GV's, experience, my bruises and lacerations in my life, things that I've learned. And yet we're so quick to judge one another, which is actually impossible. It is impossible.

So I would say every, even in my, my charity work as well, I would say the, the pearl necklace that binds everything is really self identity.

Yeah. Rather than having sort of different faces that you put on in different rooms, you just are you. And I love that.

Now, in your work with, with CEOs of large companies, what patterns do you see consistently showing up among the companies that grow well versus those that don't?

I would say grow well and not grow well are pretty subjective. Right.

Because if you think, you know, there are some very powerful companies out there that have grown very well, that also have leaders that appear to be disconnected from self, but the company is growing really well, they're profitable. The, you know, the trouble, bottom line, is great. So they understand that you're, you know, they're probably.

The revenue is great, the profit margin is great. But when I go into a company like that, I ask at what cost? So at what cost is that happening?

You know, this person, call him John, we were in a crane company kind of organization and John had Just had a baby. He had been working like 13, 14 hour days. He had not seen his child for three weeks because every time he would leave, the baby would be sleeping.

When he'd go home, the baby would be sleeping. So I asked him, I said, why do you do an amazing company, Brandon, A phenomenal leader, phenomenal company.

But what was happening is the leader was exhibiting that behavior by staying in the office all the time. So the team was picking up on his behavior and doing what they thought he expected of them.

So therefore they were staying over hours as well, even though he had a little baby at home. So yeah, I would say that companies that grow can grow intentionally.

I would say the companies that grow the best are the ones that take into consideration people and planet. And that's the reason why I started my doctorate in business was are we just focused on profit? Like where is the consideration for people?

Where is the consideration for moving humanity forward in a positive way? You know, and when I a nut and bolt company, I'll give you an example of this company, they made nuts and bolts.

So one of my questions I ask, you know, these companies is how does your product or service serve humanity going forward? And they started laughing. They're like, we make nuts and bolts. I'm like, and I drive over the bridge that probably has those nuts and bolts.

But I think what happens is in business we don't rarely make that connection that a product or service that we are giving has a direct correlation to serving humanity. And so I would say the companies that I feel subjectively do the best are the ones that take that into consideration.

Not only are they profitable, but they also take the planet and people into consideration. Hence conscious capitalism. I don't believe capitalism bad. We just have to be conscious about it.

We just need to do better than simply making money. Like I think if you look at American capitalism, winner take all mentality, people are living in poverty in the richest country on earth.

Like there's clearly a problem there. That's not to say that socialism is the answer. Capitalism clearly allows for competition and the consumer benefits to win.

But how do you tie in benefit to the planet, benefit to your people, and then look in decades rather than quarters.

I think that's another issue with some of the kind of more corporate mentality is people are so focused on their quarterly metrics as opposed to, to what impact am I actually making and what's that going to mean longer term?

Indeed, indeed.

Yeah, so this, this ties in quite well actually. GP to our next area of topic here. So you you brought up conscious capitalism and some people may say that that's maybe a little bit idealistic.

So when you've seen company leaders treat it seriously as a business strategy, has that really made much of an impact for that business? And how did you decide that it was going to be a central part of your work?

I would say a lot of it was revealed through my doctorate because when I originally, I laugh at this.

When I originally started my doctorate at rural Rhodes, my first application went in as the comparison between artificial intelligence, particularly robotics and human consciousness.

Because right now there are so many, six CEOs and one CFO that are human robots that are walking around in businesses sitting around boardroom tables. So it's not far, it's not, it's not a future anymore, it's right now.

How are they doing?

They are programmed to sit there as a C and highly effective. Increased profit margins, faster decision making. But one thing is missing and that was that part of that research was consciousness.

They are not consciously aware of their being. Like capital letters being. Yeah. So if that's the only distinguishing factor, maybe we need to elevate that. Yeah.

So then my research started to shift a little bit.

I started to drop the level of artificial intelligence to really hone in on consciousness and really hone in on how do we make decisions, especially in the finance industry. Brandon.

Like we have people that sit in the World Economic Forum and all these large organizations making decisions for the rest of the world and impacting everybody.

So what if we started to talk at that level and say, can you be conscious capitalists and understand that there's a ripple effect on the entire world? We're not going to take them away, we're not going to take the World Economic Forum away. We're going to always have billionaires in the world.

But how can we teach them to.

Perhaps they are some of them to think differently, to think at a conscious level in relation to is this profit just for me or is there a shared model? Is there something that could be doing differently for the world? And conscious capitalism is not a big thing.

It's like a two second thought of this choice or decision I'm making. How does this impact humanity?

Yeah, I love that. There's a real estate developer here in the city, Ryan Beatty, and he's donated substantial funds to Simon Fraser University.

He's also started a scholarship program for underprivileged kids.

And I think they give out something like 50 to 100 full ride scholarships a year to people that otherwise wouldn't be able to get that higher level of education.

And when I see things like that, it gives me a bit of hope to think that there are good people that are running these billion dollar companies who truly do care about humanity.

We need to make sure that folks like that are celebrated so that other business leaders who have that influence and that power and that money can do the same.

Indeed, in India there's an example of Ratan Tata. You know, such an amazing example. When I think about the epitome, what I would like to see in the world, it's Ratan Tata.

You know, the way he gave back. I don't want to get the numbers wrong, but it was approximately 67 to 70% of his revenues went back into the world.

So I think that there are people out there, you know, that have that sense of conscious capitalism. It didn't take anything away from him. He still lived the luxury that he wanted to live, but he wasn't vivacious about it.

It wasn't showing, you know, he wasn't showing it off. Instead he was doing things that were really important to him.

Well, yeah, but what if they could get a 200 foot yacht instead of 150 foot yacht?

Right? Yeah, yeah, but you know, I, in my doctorate research, Brendan, somebody asked me the question, they said, gb, why would they care?

And do you know, sadly to this day I still haven't been able to answer that question. Why would a billionaire care about conscious capitalism? And I wracked my brain around it.

I tried to, you know, imagine conversations in my head talking to somebody about conscious capitalism. And it almost seems like when somebody hits a street certain threshold in what their worth is financially, I feel that there's a loss there of.

I don't need to do that because it's beyond me.

Well, thank you for challenging the status quo and providing it through a form of research and then also connecting it to impact within the business community. So there's a lot of folks I see who do the research but aren't actually as active in the business community.

You're doing both, which, so you've worked with companies ranging from revenues of 2 million to 50 million.

Where do you see leaders change the most as a business grows and scales, and where do you recommend they go for guidance to evolve their own consciousness?

I think from 2mil to 50mil, the impacts are different per segment.

So somebody that's anywhere from the 2mil to say 5mil range, they're just trying to roll up their sleeves and do anything they can in the organization. They're the admin they're the marketing person. They're this and they're that, and they're just. Or they have to clean the toilet.

That's just the reality, Right. Of smart, a small business. Especially today. Today it's even harder than it was pre Covid. Yeah.

So I would say at that point, are they really thinking about leadership? Majority of them, maybe not. Maybe they're just trying to build the revenue. They're just trying to build a business.

I do feel that Maslow's hierarchy ties into it, that you, if you are feeling grounded and safe and secure, and as you go up Maslow's hierarchy, you move into self realization. And as a matter of fact, one of my professors and my doctorate actually challenged me on that.

They said, gv, can somebody truly move into quantum leadership if they don't even have that strong foundation? And what is the correlation with Maslow's hierarchy? So I would say that that's the differentiator between these segments of the market itself.

Yourself, I would say, where somebody is feeling solid and secure in their finances and they think, I've got this. That is the perfect place to be able to think, okay, how do I think differently? How do I grow differently?

Because you can do accelerated growth in the same way by being connected to who you are. Now. He asked the question about how does one connect in that way?

When we look at the times from Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, like all of them, told us how to do this. As a matter of fact, eudaimonia means the pursuit of self excellence. And Aristotle taught that to Alexander the Great and to many others.

Now we haven't even applied that to ourselves in relation to what is our pursuit of self excellence. Right. So I would say that the reason we don't do that as much or many choose not to is because we're scared of the demons we're going to see.

Because when you turn on the lights, of all the lights you've turned off in your head because you don't want to deal with those skeletons in your head, it's really difficult. So it's easier to move on, it's easier to move robotically than it is, for example, to sit in silence.

Sometimes when I'm doing keynotes on stage and I get up there and I say nothing for like a minute, and the audience is, like, looking at each other. We cannot even handle a 15 to 30 second awkward pause because they think, oh, did she forgot her lion? Forget her lines?

Did she forget what she's gonna say? But it's that moment that we can't even realize that. So I think you have to be pretty dedicated. That journey is not for the weak of the heart.

I can tell you that.

When you have to turn on the lights and look at yourself and you have to look at all the things that you've done or said that you're not very proud of, but the light at the end of the tunnel is that you will be a more self centered, self aligned person. Your decisions and choices that you're going to make will come from a place of grounding and centering.

And Brendan, you can even hear it in somebody's voice. Our voice changes. So when I speak from a voice of depth, I'm speaking from a grounded and centeredness.

You'll notice people go high pitch when they're trying to fix and frenzy. Yeah, even their voice tone changes. So I can tell when I'm talking to somebody, where are they sitting? Even within their voice tone. So it's hard.

Like looking at yourself. Brendan is freaking hard. Right. So I would say that start just with even silence, you know, get a mirror, you know, and just sit with the mirror.

See how long you can sit staring at yourself in the mirror. It'll be the most awkward few minutes. Some people, a lot of people cry because it's the first time they've connected with themselves in that way.

And these things aren't woohoo. These things are self connection, silence, pausing.

Would you say journaling and that sort of reflection. I think when business owners, particularly that 2 to 5 mil revenue, you're right, they're running around just trying to keep everything going.

They don't have time to do this. So how would they carve out the time when they've created this non stop job that is being the founder of their company?

Well, I think people have the misconception that meditation is sitting somewhere for an hour and chanting something. It's not what meditation is. Meditation is when you lose track of time in whatever it is that you're doing.

So you could be sailing, you could be painting, you could be dancing. There's so many activities in which you are in the meditative state. State because that's something that you love to do.

Like when somebody's sailing, they're just sailing. Right. If somebody's painting or d all the or playing a musical instrument. Right. Somebody plays the guitar, you're just playing the guitar.

So when you lose track of time and you're losing track of thought, that is when you're in the meditative state. So I think people have started to equate it to something you have to sit and do. So, yes, I sit and meditate. I do all of that as well.

But sometimes it's like picking up a raisin out of a bowl and taking a moment to think, wow, like, where did this grape grow? Who picked it? How did it become a raisin? And now it's sitting here in my bowl and I'm about to eat it.

Like, you know, people think of supply chain in a very, you know, organizational way. But think of it for a moment.

That tea that's in your teacup, it was grown somewhere, maybe even Assam in India, was picked, dried, put into bags, put into a box, and then it arrived at your table. So things for me, mindfulness and presence and silence is not about sitting and doing something.

It's washing my dishes and recognizing the fact that I had dishes to eat in. It's laying on my pillow, recognizing that I have a pillow to sleep on.

Yeah, I think that flow state where you lose track of time, that's different to everyone. Everyone's got a different way that they can run through that.

Now, what if a founder, they lose track of time because they're so focused on their business and that actually in some sense doesn't perhaps provide them with a break from work. But that's where they lose track of time. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Well, I'm in that state.

I love what I do, you know, and so sometimes I'll still be sitting downstairs and it's eight, nine o', clock, and I'll be working on a strategic plan for somebody, and I'm still sitting there because I love what I do. Right. So I would say continue doing that. But also recognize that on the hour, just take a breath.

Just breathe into that moment and have a moment of gratitude that your breath is not guaranteed.

What was the moment that you knew that you needed to build quantum business growth? And when did that become a priority for you?

It was probably during COVID when I was noticing how stressed, afraid people were feeling all these negative feelings around their business. They didn't know the future of what was going to happen.

And I used to say that you talk about uncertainty, you talk about all these things, but when have we ever been certain? Like, when has there ever been a world that was certain? We always have something or another happening. The difference is you.

It's how are you going to respond to it? So it became really apparent that leaders were struggling and they weren't telling anybody they were struggling.

Because I don't want to share My weakness, I don't want people to know how do I lead a team if I myself am struggling? And for me personally what I had started to notice was people were self medicating.

Whether it was alcohol, whether it was high functioning drug addiction, all of those kinds of things that self medication is what they were hiding. So I started to think about if we know all this stuff from the Aristotle times particularly.

I was always very interested in eudaimonia which is the, you know, the connection to self excellence. I was like why are we not applying that ancient wisdom to modernism? So that is when it became really apparent is people are struggling.

If we look around, I don't know what the exact rates are but suicide rates went up during COVID Drug addiction, alcohol consumption went up during COVID It was because people didn't know how to cope. And some people still, Brandon, don't know how to cope. But they're hiding.

They don't want people to know because they want, they know that they're this leader and they have a business to run.

So I think that's where it became really apparent is how can I help a leader create an environment where people that come into the organization are joyful, blissful, content, happy. Because when they go home and open the door to their home, I don't want somebody walking into their house miserable, overwhelmed, stress.

Because your legacy as a leader starts at somebody's dining room table. What are people saying about you on their dining room table when they come home from work? That's what true legacy is. Right.

So I wanted to create that environment where people were happy, they were joyous, they were content. It didn't mean that I was changing things external environment. But can we, can we be content with where we're at?

And we can only do that if we are in presence and we are aligned with self.

Yeah, I think ultimately a lot of us were stressed out during COVID but, but you're right, those were who were in leadership positions. They didn't have the, the flexibility of, of hiding. They had to still be present and provide some level of certainty to their, to their teams.

Present day economy yes, things are back open. We can fly places if the US government's operating, that is.

What correlation do you see to that time of uncertainty in, in today's business environment and what sort of a constant that business leaders need to be aware of in terms of how they show up for their teams?

I would say you be certain and be okay with things that are not going to work out. We're so busy being Perfect. We're so busy, you know, running around with key performance indicators because that we think that's what define us.

I would say that in the world of uncertainty, you still have a choice to be certain. Whatever decision it is that you're making, as long as you're making it consciously. Not every decision is going to be the best decision.

Things are not going to work out at times. But the point is, did you make it consciously?

So I would say the only certainty within this, you know, beautiful, uncertain, chaotic world we have right now is you.

Because you likely are operating differently than other consultants in your business, in your business community. Jibby. What was traditional consulting not offering to the companies that you work with that the spiritual lens helped them get to the next level?

Traditional consulting is very linear. Right. Current state, future state, gap analysis. Right. That's the typical, you know, Peter Block consulting methodology. Yeah.

That we've still, many of us still use. Yeah. As consultants. So mine is very non linear. You know, sometimes I'll go in and do workshops and I don't have an agenda.

So I'll go in and I'll say, okay, well what are we talking about today? And they'll look at me and what do you mean? Are you supposed to tell us? I'm like, no, you guys are going to tell me. Yeah.

So I use things like open space technology. So I use a lot of facilitation techniques that are experiential and interactive. So I'll take in Lego.

You know, I just did this actually last weekend with a non profit and so they built their Lego vision as to who they do, who do they want to be as an organization. So within our work, within the workshops that I do, I'll take in play. D'oh. I'll take in paints.

You know, people will paint their vision or their values, so they're doing experiential things rather than a linear talking format. Also, when I go into a workshop, I never know what's going to happen, Brandon. And I'm perfectly okay with that.

It's like I can go into a workshop and have an agenda and then it gets totally sidetracked by something else. And I'm like, but this is where we need to go. It's not about the agenda.

And so in a linear process, we would bring them back to say, no, no, we have to follow the agenda. We have to do this and this and this next. Meantime, people are struggling with what you're asking them because they have unanswered questions. Yeah.

So I would say that's the Difference is, I don't have a linear approach in quantum mechanics, there's not a linear approach. Yeah. So there are multiple possibilities and superposition that are available to you at any point of time.

So why do we not apply that to our business? That means we have multiple possibilities, you know, built into that consulting process at any given moment. So I would say that's what's different.

And would you say that approach has led to better business outcomes with some of your clients?

Indeed. Indeed. The clients actually don't even know that they're doing work. I think that's the most common result I get is, oh, my God, this final report.

That's like 80, 90 pages. We didn't even realize we did all that work because they're doing it experientially. And it's all about them. Yeah.

It's not about the facilitator, it's about them. So I would say that and I would say the other. We get high levels of alignment. People leave knowing the North Star.

Not just knowing it, they feel the North Star. That's what's different is that the energy in the room. They can feel what it is they're about to accomplish. Yeah.

The nonprofit that I just worked with, you know, there's six board directors. And they said to me, they said, gb, we have never felt more aligned than what we feel today. And it was not easy getting there.

It was difficult conversations. Right. Because you have to put the moose on the table. Right. Saying, this is what happened last quarter. Why didn't you do this?

So we have to have respectful conversations and hold each other accountable. But at the same time, we have to feel what it is that we want to accomplish.

It sounds as though if people are more open, have the ability to be more open. As a traditional consulting path, it is predictable, and so people know what to say.

But if you come at it from a different approach, we're playing with Lego today. We're using Play doh. You're going to disarm people. And they'll be more transparent about their thoughts and feelings regarding the company.

Company's performance and where they think the company should go, particularly because everyone's guard is down. So I like that.

Yeah. There's one activity, Brandon, I do.

When they walk in the door, they have to leave their business card and a hat, because when they walk in, they're not walking in as their title. Right. Or sometimes they'll leave an empty chair around the boardroom table and put their business name on that chair.

And that's actually a Voice as a part of this world, I'll say, what would your business. If that person, if that chair was a person, what would they be saying to the conversation you're having right now? Love that.

Now, this is particularly interesting right now because there's a lot of business handovers happening and succession. Why is transforming an existing organization so much harder than starting from scratch?

I think when we transition, there's already a culture there, there's already history there, there's legacy there. So you're up against the quorum that already exists. Right.

And a startup you're starting from scratch so you can build, you know, your culture and your values and all of those beautiful things from scratch you can build your team from. So you hand select people. But in a. In a business that you're doing a succession plan from, you've got people already. They've already.

They know each other really well. They've had a certain way of working. I was working with a company where they had a really toxic culture.

So the new owner said to me, he said, gv, I don't know what to do. Like, people are just so negative. Like, they come in negative, they show up negative, they're mean to each other.

So I looked at him and I said, would you. Could you please tell me why you tolerate that? It's not about the people, because you're going to get the behavior you tolerate.

So tell me more about that. And he said, well, I'm a new owner and I don't know the people well enough to know. Is this red normal? Is it not normal?

So I said, okay, well, what if we redefined your values, built behavioral sentences around those values?

But let's do another layer and build consequences if those values are not adhered to, because the consequences are going to hold people accountable to those values. And then we built a culture map with them to say, okay, the culture now going forward is a culture of innovation.

So when you come in, you're coming in with solutions. Name the problem, but also come in and say, I've thought through it, and these are the three solutions I'd like to offer.

I think we should do number one, because that gives us the best return on investment. So therefore, the conversations in the organization start changing. Now, toxic culture can take anywhere from one to two years to rebuild. Yeah.

So I would say that's the main difference is you're coming into history, you're coming into legacy, you're coming into how people have behaved, and all of a sudden, you're the new kid on the block that Everybody's like, well, you don't know. You haven't been here for nine, 10 years. And we've tried and tested it and it didn't work before. So it's a little bit more difficult.

Yeah.

Speaking with many clients and friends who are in this taking over businesses that have inherent cultures, but some positive, some negative, it is tough.

But I think the issue for some leaders is they fear disrupting the way things are presently running and the business is operating, it's making money, it's doing okay. What do you tell them in that environment where they're sort of scared to make change because of the potential negative impact that might occur?

Well, my recommendation would be for the first 90 days, 80% of what you do is listen and 20% you ask questions. So in the first 90 days, if you can avoid it, I wouldn't change things. You know, you're building your relationship with people. People.

So if the relationship comes first rather than the strategy, because the stra. People. What was that? There was a quote that said, people eat strategy for breakfast.

Culture.

Culture. Yeah.

So when you think about that, if I'm a new person going into an organization, I'm going to start off by doing one on ones and saying to people, you know, tell me about your work here. What have you done so far? What have you accomplished? What do you think leads to the success of where you're at today?

And I would say I want to leverage what led the success up until now to grease the skids into the future. Then you get them together as a collective team and say, this is what I heard from all of you guys.

From what I heard, these are three priorities that I believe that we could work on past these three months. Do you agree? So there's an agreement point at that place as well.

Then I would give each priority one person that would be accountable for that priority.

I think it comes back, Brendan, to what I said when I said it's about you in that original conversation about, you know, connecting with self in this situation. It's not about you, it's about the collective because you are only as good as your weakest link. That's simple. Yeah.

So in a collective of, you know, people, you're only as good. As good as that collective consciousness. So therefore, I want to make sure that collective consciousness is on point.

And if I know where I need to support people, where I need to mentor, where I need to coach, or I know who needs to get off the bus, perhaps there's somebody that's not suited for this tribe. And they would be better suited for something else. But now I know because I've talked to you one on one.

What if there's 200 people? It's a big, it's a bigger company, there's 300 people, new leader, new relationships at the manager level and at the boots on the ground.

What do you do in that scenario?

I pick the five top movers and shakers. And that doesn't mean they have to be managers. Movers and shakers don't have to be managers. It could be anybody.

But as you're observing the organization, you can tell who are people going to, who are people talking to the most.

So I would probably select five or six of the top movers and shakers and have those conversations with them about how I would like to change the culture, talk to them about what are they observing on the floor. There's so many ways now, Brandon, to get a large collective of information. You can do surveys.

There's now Miro, you know, I use Miro a lot, which is an online sticky note kind of tool where you can do a whole bunch of questions. People can go in on their own time and go add their sticky notes to those questions.

We have now ChatGPT or any portfolio, any platform like that that can distill information. But don't ask a question that you don't want to do something about. Right.

Because that's the last thing people want is I'm going to sit here and do a survey and then nothing's going to happen of it. Right.

So I would say there's ways of now beautiful ways of being able to use artificial intelligence to distill large amounts of information through engagement surveys, you know, satisfaction surveys, those kinds of things. But I would hand select the five to six movers or shakers and impact them and then create the impact down.

Yeah, it makes a ton of sense.

So after working with hundreds of CEOs over the years, Jibby, what have you learned really matters at the end of a career for people that have run the leadership gauntlet?

How they made people feel, how they, how again, how did they show up at their dining room table? That's what matters to me when people report to me is I want to have an influence on how they show up in their home.

Because if they show up in their home feeling good, they're a better contributor to their family, better contributor to the community. There's a ripple effect in the world. So I would say for me, the most important part is what legacy are you leaving?

And that legacy is based on how did you impact people and how did you make them feel?

People can build the most profitable business. But if you're sitting alone at a table because you scared away your family, your friends and all around, like, is that really true success?

Indeed. Indeed. And I think that's where I think ego comes in. Right.

I see that a lot, even in succession planning, particularly where you have family succession. A lot of conflict. Right. You have three siblings, four siblings, two siblings that are now vying for that, you know, business.

And at some point, the business gets lost and ego takes over. And I ask them, I say, how do you. How do you think you're going to experience Christmas next year? And so they have to take a moment to realize that.

And some realize it and some don't, you know, and you can't. You can't help everybody.

I think that's really important for me to remember because I do go all out, and so sometimes I have to take a step back, too, and say, wait a minute. You know, not everybody desires to be helped.

Yeah, no, that's very true. You can only help people if they want to be helped.

But the family business topic is interesting because there's so many family businesses that are undergoing transition right now. Do you sell the private equity? Do you have your family take over? Does your family own and you hire management?

These type of decisions are challenging. And if the relationship dynamics are not under control before you get to the boardroom table, things can go sideways pretty quick.

Indeed. Or a father not leaving a will. You know, I deal with that one a lot. Where the parents have not left something and you have siblings now that are.

So succession planning into the business or disagree with the strategy of the business.

Going forward, what type of legacy does that leave?

Well, exactly. And that's, you know, you would think, I don't know, that somebody along the lines would have said, you know, have you taken care of business?

You know, which not just means taking care of business, but what is the end of life plan here?

Yep. My. My father, business owner, international business, he didn't have one.

And we're working the industry that I did, and the amount of times I'd followed up with him to try to get him to get things organized, it's always easier to kick it off. The difficult conversations are far less interesting than which is the next deal I'm going to close or which partnership or which acquisition.

Those are more fun. But we have a finite number of minutes and hours on this planet.

And if you haven't gotten your affairs in Order prior to that, you don't get a second chance.

Indeed, indeed. That invisible expiry date's not going to change for anybody. Right.

So, Jivi, you still got lots, lots to go in your career.

But if we were looking at towards the end of your career, what are you hoping the impact to be from both your academic work and your professional work, and I guess spiritual has tied into both of those.

My desire for myself is to be able to present one day at the World Economic Forum. That's what I'm aspiring to do. I want to be able to impact billionaires out there and to be able to showcase.

And that's the reason why my doctorate research was quantitative and qualitative, because a lot of people think that a lot of this stuff is qualitative and it's not. A lot of it is quantifiable as well.

So I would say, you know, when I think about the future, I would hope that I leave an impact on humanity where anybody that I've served, I've left a positive impact on them. I believe that communication is the very tapestry of existence. And any micro moment we have with somebody, we have an opportunity to shift destiny.

So if I can do that in micro moments, I believe that everything comes together. My education, my experience, you know, my aikige, what I'm here to do in the world, all comes together, together.

And in the business world, yeah, that would be the most treasured space I would have, is being able to do a keynote at the World Economic Forum.

Okay, well, who knows? Maybe we'll have someone from WEF listening to our podcast today and they'll consider bringing you on.

Now, Divi, when you looked at the next generation of leaders, what do you hope they'll do better than previous generations?

Work, life, integration. Yeah, I don't believe in balance. I think when you're passionate about something, you lose that.

As we talked about earlier, where, you know, if you love what you do, but there's an integration as to, okay, well, you know, I've got a soccer game. My child's at a soccer game. So therefore I'm going to go there right now because I have flexible working hours and all those kinds of things.

I would hope that leaders take into consideration their self connection and then their connection with other people and that they have strong emotional intelligence. I think social intelligence and emotional intelligence. For me, are married.

And I think that the stronger I know what my personal emotional triggers are, the stronger I'm able to connect with somebody else and understand what their triggers are. Sometimes I'LL call one of my team members and they would have been in a meeting and I'll say, hey, in that meeting, you didn't seem like yourself.

Are you okay? And they might say, no, gv, everything was fine. I was just hurried. Or, you know, something is going on. But it gives me an opportunity to connect.

So I would say connect. Connection would be the word. Connection with self and connection with the people that are serving.

I think that will be really important for future leaders.

Yeah. No more facades, no more cloaks. Let's just be ourselves, both at work in our personal life and weave more humanity into business.

That's how we can win.

Well, jv, this has been very interesting for me and for those that are listening, if they want to find more of your work, where's the best place for them to do that? Or if they would like to connect.

With you, they can connect with me through our website. So quantumbusinessgrowth. Ca. Or you can connect with me on LinkedIn.

Beautiful. Well, thank you, Jivi, for sharing your time with us today. I've certainly learned a lot. Any final words before we Farewell.

Be yourself. Because everybody else is taken.

Beautiful. Be yourself. Everyone else is taken. Thanks for joining for the A list. We'll see you at the next episode.