In the recent episode of MC Fireside Chats, hosted by Brian Searl of Insider Perks, a discussion unfolds about the RV industry with notable guests including Phil Ingrassia (President of RVDA), Eleanore Hamm (President of RVDA of Canada), Shane Devenish (Executive Director at CRVA), and special guest Mike Wendland from RV Lifestyle.

Mike Wendland, with his extensive experience in the RV lifestyle, shares his journey from starting a blog to expanding into a comprehensive multi-platform presence. He emphasizes the importance of adapting to changes in audience behavior and platform algorithms, highlighting the need for content diversification. Wendland's perspective is particularly valuable, given his direct engagement with a broad RV audience through various digital channels.

The conversation then shifts to the broader challenges facing the RV industry. One significant issue discussed is the quality of RVs, particularly those manufactured during the COVID-19 pandemic years (2020 and 2021). Wendland notes an improvement in quality post-2021 but maintains that quality remains a concern. This point underscores the industry's need to maintain high standards to ensure consumer satisfaction and industry growth.

Another critical topic is the state of campgrounds, both private and public. The panel agrees that the quality of campgrounds plays a crucial role in the overall RV experience. Brian Searl acknowledges the existence of both good and bad campgrounds, indicating that the impression they leave on RVers can significantly impact the industry's perception.

The discussion also delves into the challenges of RV servicing and the supply of parts. Eleanore Hamm from RVDA of Canada addresses the difficulty dealers face in finding enough qualified technicians. This shortage, coupled with supply chain issues, has led to extended repair times, affecting the overall RV experience. Phil Ingrassia adds that the industry is focusing on reducing repair event cycle times, a critical factor for customer satisfaction.

Mike Wendland brings up the seasonal nature of the RV business, particularly in regions north of the Mason-Dixon line. He notes the challenges dealers face in maintaining staff for peak seasons and suggests that more publicity about employment opportunities as RV technicians could help alleviate some of these issues. He also mentions innovative training programs, including those reaching out to prisons, as a way to address the technician shortage.

A significant part of the discussion revolves around attracting new demographics to the RV lifestyle. The panel recognizes the importance of engaging younger generations and urban dwellers, who might not traditionally consider RV activities. Wendland and others emphasize the need for early exposure to outdoor activities and the industry's efforts to make RVing more accessible and appealing.

Shane Devenish highlights the importance of addressing current problems while also creating a pipeline for future RV buyers. This dual focus is essential for the long-term success of the industry, balancing immediate needs with strategic future planning.

Mike Wendland also touches on the impact of remote work on the RV industry. He notes the improvement in campground internet access, which has facilitated remote work from RVs. Wendland suggests that advocating for remote work can help sustain and grow the RV industry, as it allows more people to integrate RVing into their lifestyles.

In his closing remarks, Brian Searl reiterates the value of diverse perspectives in understanding and addressing the challenges facing the RV industry. He acknowledges his own strong opinions but emphasizes the importance of open dialogue and considering different viewpoints.

The conversation concludes with acknowledgments of the insights shared and the importance of these discussions for the future of the RV industry. The participants express gratitude for the perspectives offered, highlighting the collaborative nature of addressing the industry's challenges and opportunities.

Overall, the MC Fireside Chat provides a comprehensive overview of the current state of the RV industry, covering a range of topics from quality control and service challenges to demographic engagement and the impact of remote work. The insights from industry leaders and experts like Mike Wendland offer valuable perspectives on both the challenges and opportunities facing the RV world today.

Welcome everybody to another episode of MC Fireside Chats.

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My name is Brian Searl with Insider Perks.

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I'm whispering on purpose.

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Because I'm inside an airport lounge in

Ottawa, internationally important, so I

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just want to meet my neighbors around me.

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So I'm going to count on my special

guests here to carry the show.

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They do a better job than me anyways,

so it really won't be any different.

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Just so you know.

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And also, I have a little

head cold, so I don't know.

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All the things are working against

me today, and in your favor.

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Because of our special guests, so

we're excited to talk about our RV

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industry show here for the fourth week.

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We've got Mr.

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Shane Devenish from CRDA, we've got

Phil Gracia from RVDA of America, I

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still can't get that it's not America,

but And then RVDA of Canada, Eleanor

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Hamm, super excited to have all of

them here, and then Mike Winn, our

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special guest from RV Lifestyle.

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If you guys want to just go around

real quick and introduce yourselves for

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everybody, just for those of you who

are new or don't know who you all are,

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feel free to, whoever wants to start.

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Eleonore Hamm: Sure, I'll go first.

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I'm Eleanore Hamm, President of the

RV Dealers Association of Canada.

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We're a federation of provincial and

regional associations and represent

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the RV dealers here in canada.

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Phil Ingrassia: I'm Phil Ingrassi.

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I'm President of the RV

Dealers Association U.

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S.

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We represent U.

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S.

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motorhome and travel trailer dealers

and work very closely with Eleanor

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and her members at RV Day of Canada.

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Shane Devenish: I'm Shane Devenish

from the Canadian RV Association.

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We are the Canadian

equivalent of the RBIA.

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And Brian, you should be in an RV

and not in an airport right now.

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Mike Wendland: He should.

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Brain Searl: I'm waiting on this.

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Waiting on the CRVA to

sponsor one for McCain.

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When is it going to happen?

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Mike Wendland: He's going to get busted.

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He's sitting there talking

like this really quiet.

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Hi everybody, I'm Mike Wedelin.

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I am an RVer.

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I am from RV Lifestyle.

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We're bloggers, YouTubers, RV travel

book authors, and bon vivants in the

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RV industry across North America.

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Pleasure to be with y'all.

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Brain Searl: Alright super

excited to have you all guys here.

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As I start with every kind of recurring

bill here is there anything Shane,

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Phil, Eleanore, specifically, because

you're a recurring guest, that feels

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like super important that we need to

share with the world, with the industry?

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Phil Ingrassia: A couple studies

came out within the last couple weeks

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about RV holiday travel, and I was...

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A little surprised about some of it.

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KOA just put out a release today saying

that camping is going to be pretty

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popular during the holiday season.

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In fact they said something like

45 percent of people are going

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to be many travelers are going

to be camping for Thanksgiving.

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That'll be the top holiday probably,

obviously, for people to camp.

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But Surprised to see the activity,

but I guess people are wanting to

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get outside while they still can on

this shoulder season a little bit.

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Be interested in Mike's thoughts on those.

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Mike Wendland: It's, we just did it.

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Our podcast just came out today and

it's all about Thanksgiving in an RV.

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Of course, this is Thanksgiving

in the US this weekend.

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And We posted on our Facebook, RV

Lifestyle Facebook group, before I did

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the podcast, I said how many of you are

traveling in an RV this weekend, and

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we had over 500 responses, and about

20 percent of all of those and we did

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just a rough calculation, but about 20

percent said they were actually going

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to cook in their RV or in a campground.

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And we interviewed one couple

that have been doing this for

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10 years with their family.

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23 people camping in a campground and

cooking turkey, smoked turkey outside

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in Missouri, near Branson, Missouri.

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Surprised, we were surprised how many

people said they actually wanted to

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camp this weekend and would be doing so.

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Brain Searl: If I want to go find those

people next week, I'm going to be in

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Branson for the Cape Grimmers Expo.

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They're going to have

some leftovers for me.

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Mike Wendland: Yeah, they should.

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They start their cookie,

their smoked turkey outside.

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They said that the campground, by the

way, is filled and with other people.

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Some are obviously staying there and

visiting family, but it's filled.

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She said she had to make reservations

five months ago to get three sites

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together for all their family members.

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So apparently a lot more than we may think

are cooking turkeys in their Thanksgiving

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turkeys outside or in their RV.

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Eleonore Hamm: Is that unusual?

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Normally, have you done this study before?

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Is this a new trend?

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Mike Wendland: We've never done it.

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I wouldn't call it a study.

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It's just a we have about,

but we have a huge group.

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We have 155, 000 active

members on our Facebook.

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So we can really do quick surveys.

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And I just posted that the other

day before I recorded my podcast.

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I wonder how many of them have

posted, have, are camping.

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And they were all.

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I'll go on.

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I was just surprised at how

many do camp on Thanksgiving.

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And I think that was the, I just,

because, we're always visiting family.

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We're in our RV.

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We'll maybe moochdocking

in somebody's driveway.

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But to find so many people still

camping was a surprise to me.

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And this is 12 years now we've

been living this lifestyle.

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I just didn't think it was that popular.

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Brain Searl: It's interesting, it would

be interesting to me to see if we could

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understand the difference between the

people who camp for Thanksgiving and

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who are full time, and who like, not

only live in their RVs, but primarily

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live in their RVs, versus the people

who transient camp for Insider Perks.

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Mike Wendland: I would suspect, and

I didn't, I have no, nothing except

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just experience to back it up,

but the people we did the extended

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interview with are regular campers.

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They go out once a month, at least

they said, but they're not full timers.

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And I would think that You probably have

a few more full timers who are celebrating

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Thanksgiving in an RV than part timers,

but I think that it's become, for a lot

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of people, it's probably a tradition.

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You, you go someplace, you visit family,

friends, your RV, and that's a pretty

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fun thing to do if you can cook outside.

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I asked them what they do if it rains,

and they said they raided the nearest

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Walmart and bought as many tarps as

they could and put their tables together

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and tarps underneath it, and it was

one of their best memories yet when

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they had that a few years ago, but it's

just, I think, we sometimes forget how

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integral a part of our community is.

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of our followers lives is indeed

camping, even in holiday time

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or whether it's in a driveway.

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Moot stocking, I don't know how we could

measure that, but I would guess that there

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is a significant number of RVers who are

camping in relatives or friends driveways.

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This weekend.

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And I think that the, it makes

a lot of sense is you've got

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your own bed, your own bath.

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It's like a private en suite.

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All your stuff is there.

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It's so much more convenient than a hotel.

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To get some actual statistics

would be interesting.

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I suspect we would all be surprised

just by what we found in this.

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Brain Searl: How does RV Look

forward, and this is not just the

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Camping in Iteria conversation

but many different associations.

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How do we look forward?

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How do we embrace both the people

that obviously are continuing to

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love RVing, but also camping, and

glamping, and everything else?

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And that people who will diversify their

stays and go to hip camp sometimes,

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and people who will go to Europe but

still go camping three times a year

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instead of six times a year, right?

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It's a lot of loaded questions as

we look at all these KOA surveys

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that come up in the winter.

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Is that adding more trips?

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Are they new people who are and so

I think whichever way you slice and

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dice the data, it's going to be an

interesting next couple of years.

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Eleonore Hamm: Yeah, in terms of studies,

we'll be releasing probably by the time

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you do your next podcast here or your

next show I don't know if there'll be

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one in December, but at least in January,

we do have a new draft right now that

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we're reviewing for an economic impact

analysis for the Canadian RV industry.

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Some really interesting data

that'll come out of that.

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We do know that there's still about 2.

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1 million RVs on the road.

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And last year in 2022, 6.

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3 million RV trips were taken in Canada.

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And this time, for the first

time, we also looked at rentals.

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So 1.

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3 million trips taken in in rentals.

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And we feel that number is

really increasing as well.

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So good to have data and good to see

where, where where we can compare to

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where we were, over the last 10 years.

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Brain Searl: And I think that's to be

clear, you guys can shoot me down because

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I'm not the RV industry expert, right?

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But I have a gut feeling that

rentals is really a big growth in

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the RV industry is going to come

in the next five to 10 years.

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Of course, people are still

going to buy these, right?

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But we had this conversation at

many different conferences that

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I've been in last month, is there's

a lot of these new people that the

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age demographic is trending down,

they live in urban areas, they don't

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have a place to store an RV, right?

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You can't park it in your driveway, you

can't put it in an apartment complex.

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You still want to go RVing, right?

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You want to be outdoors.

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Or maybe you'll buy

one, maybe you rent one.

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And that still ends up being a

net win for the dealers, right?

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'cause the rental companies are

still buying them more from the crew.

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Mike Wendland: I think you're

also seeing a lot more dealers

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that are renting as well.

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I'm thinking of The's.

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A lot of folks are going out to Quar

site, for the big January, what,

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300,000 people camping in the desert.

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And I'm hearing just anecdotally

from a lot of people who are.

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They don't want to necessarily drive

across the country to go out to Corsite,

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but they want to experience it, so

they're all looking for places in the

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Arizona area and Las Vegas where they

can rent RVs and then drive down.

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I think it's a great business.

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I'm hearing all the time about

new companies that are starting

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out that specialize in renting.

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And I think that I think you're

right on, Brian, that that's a fast

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growing area and it's perfect for

the younger generation because...

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Nobody can afford a house anymore.

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How can you afford to buy a house in

the, in these economic times we're in?

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So people are used to renting.

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They're renting their houses,

they're renting their apartments.

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It makes sense, especially when an RV,

you're paying 9 percent for an RV loan.

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It makes sense to rent an RV.

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Although, nobody's going to rent them

long term, but for a weekend or a couple

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of weeks, I think you'll see that's

a very viable industry for people to

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keep this, people are hooked on it.

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After COVID, it's not going

back the way it was before.

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If nothing, people really

like this lifestyle.

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Shane Devenish: Yeah, and I I agree

that, the rental stat is something

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that we really need to watch I, I'd be

curious to see if the stat per person

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and their rental frequency goes up,

because if you have somebody, Rent,

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renting multiple times, those are

the people that used to buy, right?

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It's one thing to rent once or twice

and try it out But if you see people

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renting it five and six times Then

that's something that you know, I

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think as an industry would watch

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Mike Wendland: I think it's a

great entryway to buy an RV.

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We recommend to folks when

they say what should I get?

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And we say, go rent a

couple of different types.

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Start, try a class B, a C, rent

a rent a towable if you have to.

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And I'm wondering if that's showing up

at RV dealerships, if people are coming

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in and saying, Hey, we've been renting

for a while and now we want to buy.

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And it seems that's a pretty good

pathway to actually buying too.

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Yeah, certainly there's a lot of

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Phil Ingrassia: RV dealers.

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Oh, sorry, go ahead.

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No, go ahead.

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For RV dealers, there's a lot of economic

things that they have to consider

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when they enter the rental market.

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One is just a basic, do they have

the space to do it and the staff?

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Because we've found over the years

that the most successful RV dealers

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in the rental space really run

it almost as a separate business.

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Because you need to have dedicated

staff to check out and check in people.

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You need to have the space

to store the rental units.

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Some dealers are a little landlocked and

it makes renting a bit difficult for them.

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They just don't have the space.

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And then, during the pandemic when

sales were hot a lot of dealers just

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got out of it because they could sell

the motorhome or the travel trailer

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versus having it in the rental fleet.

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However, now that business is cooling

off a bit, we are seeing more dealers

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taking another look at rentals and

it's it's an interesting business in

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many places it's very seasonal, but

dealers who run it separately and make

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it become a profit center on itself

typically are the most successful at it.

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And now you have the peer to peer

rental platforms coming in and

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They create a whole nother set of

challenges, but uh, it's certainly it's

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a market for the dealers to explore.

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It's just it's just something that it's

not just, it's not as easy as saying

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we'll just run out a bunch of these units.

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You really have to have

a business plan in place.

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Otherwise your customer service goes down.

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People do.

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Do crash these units and you've got

to, you've got to have a good plan in

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place, you've got to have good insurance

coverages and you've got to have

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the people in place to service those

customers, because these first timers,

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they don't know how to use the unit

and not only can they break the unit,

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but they can have a bad experience if

they aren't checked out correctly on,

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on the systems and things in place.

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But we survey dealers and we think that

we're going to see more dealers get

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into or back into RV rentals in 2024.

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Brain Searl: Here's an

interesting question, right?

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Give me like, just take

a hypothetical, right?

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If it's the worst case scenario, and

maybe this isn't the worst case, right?

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For the purpose of this conversation,

worst case scenario happens

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and RV sales don't bounce back

for a couple of years, right?

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Is it feasible for a dealership to be

very successful by renting, going all

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in like you're talking about, Phil, into

a market that's increasing in rentals

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and also have service still be able to

function, not just for the consumer owned

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RVs, but for the rentals and for the,

even the outdoorsies and stuff like that?

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Phil Ingrassia: Yeah, absolutely.

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I think that the, some of the successful

business plans are, Near attractions,

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Florida, out west, around Rocky

Mountain National Park or Yellowstone

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or some of those kind of areas in the U.

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S.

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Where you've got a lot of debts,

like Mike was talking about,

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people fly in and drive, right?

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So you fly into Jackson Hole or whatever

and you rent a unit there and then

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drive into Grand Tetons or Yellowstone.

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That's a successful model.

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That is, we've seen,

and of course, in the U.

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S., we have Cruise America and El Monte,

there's a, they cater to a lot of those

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types of travelers, especially travelers

from overseas who want to see the U.

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S., so a lot of those Cruise America

units driving down the road have have

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international visitors driving them,

and so it's, It's a good business,

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but you gotta be, it's complicated

for a lot of different reasons.

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Shane Devenish: It's not easy.

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We've seen some big guys

up here, not make it.

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And it all comes down to utilization and

curtailments off season to keep their...

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Sometimes they just run

out of cash flow and it's.

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Eleonore Hamm: Yeah, obviously

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it's some of the large fleets, right?

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We have the same thing, like Phil

said, people are flying in from Europe.

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It's they want to go to the

Banff, Jasper, all in the West.

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They're, or they fly into Vancouver

and they want to do that drive, right?

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But again it's generally for only

three or four months of the year.

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Because we can, some units can,

are equipped for winter camping,

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but they're not all, and it does

get quite brisk if you're in in the

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Rocky Mountains in in January, right?

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So some of the big fleets, we've

got Canada Dream and Cruise

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Canada, Fraser Way some big fleets.

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But, on dealers, if, if they have the

space on their lots, it's definitely

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something they should look into and look

at to see if it's something they can

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incorporate in their business model.

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Phil Ingrassia: Yeah.

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Along racetracks and, uh, those

kinds of places amusement parks

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where there's camping, a lot of,

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Mike Wendland: Musicals, tailgating,

a lot of people running for that.

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I think it's a big profit center though

for dealers, just because of the scale

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that you would have to make a profit that

would allow you to have dedicated staff.

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There's so much competition now with

peer to peer and I see it more as just

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a side side business that maybe will

help a little bit with the bottom line.

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But, just think of the size.

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If you have 10 rental units

are you gonna have 'em all

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rented out in a single weekend?

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Particularly, as Shane said up in

the northern climate, it's, yeah.

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It's too crazy.

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Isabel, I can just see camping

in Banff in the middle of January

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and everything freezes up and

you've got to go get that thing.

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And it's, there are a lot of headaches.

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Phil's absolutely right.

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Phil Ingrassia: But you've got to

look at, utilization is key, but.

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If you have 100 percent utilization,

and I don't know, there's some kind of

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formula they use because if something

happens, somebody doesn't bring it back

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on time, or they back it into a tree or

something like that, you've got to have

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a replacement unit for these other folks.

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And so the utilization becomes a kind

of a formula that you've got to use so

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that you do have some backup units and

certainly the big ones cruise America,

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they know how to do that very well and

they do a great job and they keep their

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units the, they're the kind of the same,

so that people are, get what they expect

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versus, you have a bunch of different

types of units that you run out, it

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can be hard to replace the, if you've

got five people going and you, RV can

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really only come comfortably sleep two.

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That's a problem.

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Lots of things that people a lot smarter

than me have figured out over the

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years on RV rentals, that's for sure.

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Brain Searl: I can't even figure out how

to keep this gimbal cambell straight,

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Phil Ingrassia: we, yeah,

we we're noticing, Brian.

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Brain Searl: It's it's on a gimbal

for a handheld thing, and it just

332

decides to go and collapse every time.

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I don't know.

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Anyway, it's probably better.

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I look more handsome when I'm not looking.

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But let's talk to Mike

for a second, right?

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So Mike, tell us what RV Lifestyle is.

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Mike Wendland: wE were, this is 12

years, journalists by background

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for many years, the NBC and big city

newspapers and television stations,

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but About a dozen years ago, we

thought we were going to retire.

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We bought a little RV, a Class

B at the time, a used one.

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And it was, everybody was coming

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So it was like, we didn't know, we just

were going to go out and see the country.

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I was going back to see the places

that I had visited as a reporter.

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That and that was a time to get acquainted

with my wife again, reacquainted with her.

346

She had a background in TV production.

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We just started blogging.

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I'm a journalist, I gotta write a story,

and some of my friends picked it up,

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and was right out of the 28, and I got

called by a couple of RV manufacturers

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saying, Hey, we don't want you in a used

one, let's get you in some new things.

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We began to find people wanted to

sponsor us for the, that was just the

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blog at that time, and then we started

doing YouTube, we started a podcast.

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5, almost 500 episodes now of our podcast,

and it's turned into a business and we're

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usually around the road half to three

quarters of the time, and it's a labor

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of love for us because we get to tell the

stories about what we're doing and share.

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The fun things that we're having

in our life that this lifestyle

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really does make possible.

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So we have about a million followers

all in all of our platforms together.

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And sometimes it's hard to figure out

which platform we're talking about because

360

we just added Amazon Live earlier this

year to do some reviews and things.

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And we're doing probably Three

or four live feeds every week.

362

But the interest is just amazing on this

lifestyle from, and it, so many people

363

who have found this post covid I'm still

hearing people who said we started camping

364

right after Covid and and now they're.

365

They're thinking about selling

houses and going full time so

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it's a, it, the demand is there.

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Phil Ingrassia: What kind of

reviews are you doing, Mike?

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Are you doing campground

reviews, product reviews?

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Mike Wendland: I keep thinking I should

do campground reviews because we really,

370

we think we could probably offer some

suggestions to them, but more product

371

than anything else that we've been doing.

372

The things, that range from A little

fire starter that people can have to a

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handcrafted hatchet that's razor sharp,

that's made in the Ukraine, that's

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perfect, a perfect gift for somebody to

take, in the back of their RV to, we'd

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go to all the big shows, we review all

the new rigs our Sticks and Bricks home

376

is just outside, just over the Michigan

border from Indiana, so we're right...

377

We're a half hour drive from Elkhart,

so we're down there all the time.

378

But I know we're talking a

lot about campgrounds as well.

379

And it's been amazing for us to

watch how smart campground owners

380

have become in all of this.

381

This, we just saw the Halloween

boom, and this has now turned

382

into one of the most popular.

383

Months for camping anywhere

is the month of October.

384

And, we were talking a little

while ago about how many people

385

probably camp in Thanksgiving.

386

I'd do the same thing if I owned

a campground and I was open.

387

That's the other problem is you

want to actually be in a place

388

where people could be outside.

389

So it'd be, probably South of of

Canada, be a little too cold up

390

there, but I'd promote Thanksgiving.

391

Spend Thanksgiving in your RV, bigger

sites, bigger fires, keep everything open

392

and insulate the water pipes a little bit.

393

And I think that what I, what we're

seeing is more and more people.

394

Camping all year round.

395

We get requests all the time

about camping in the wintertime.

396

Ten years ago we, my wife and I, went up

to Michigan's Upper Peninsula in January.

397

What's it like camping in the wintertime?

398

So we camp, we're the only ones in the

campground, and we invited a few people

399

to come the next year, and three or four

people joined us, and then five, and that

400

became an annual camping event that we've

done now in January with about 30 people.

401

It fills up this state park up there.

402

Since then, we have found that we really

can camp all year round in the north.

403

I'll admit, after Tampa comes, I try to

stay down south but we do camp in January.

404

And it's amazing how many other people

are, have figured out that the only

405

difference between summer and winter

camping is you don't usually have running

406

water, and you got a lot of, wear a

lot more clothes when you go outside.

407

But it's very feasible for

folks to camp in the winter.

408

Who would think that this would become

a prime time thing, if you look at

409

the campgrounds that are open in the

winter, most of them are pretty filled

410

up on weekends with winter campers maybe

RVers aren't so busy after all, right?

411

Brain Searl: We're all

a little bit, right?

412

Yeah.

413

But let's back up a minute because I'm

interested in how RV lifestyle generally

414

like, how did, I know you said how it

basically got started, but how did you

415

take that initial early success and

build upon it, diversify into YouTube,

416

from blogs into everything else, right?

417

For me, take me for example, right?

418

I would have never been where I am today

had I not piggybacked off Shane's success.

419

I just had him on my show.

420

Millions of people tuned in.

421

Everybody got to know me.

422

That's my story.

423

Mike Wendland: Shane, you want

to be on the podcast next week?

424

Shane Devenish: Yeah, don't believe Brian.

425

He wants some viewers, Mike.

426

Mike Wendland: I wish I could

claim I thought it all out

427

and planned it all out, but...

428

We did luck out in that the industry

was trying to get back on its

429

feet, back in 2012, they were still

430

But we started with a blog and

I am a journalist, so it's very

431

easy for me to do create content.

432

And then we started YouTube

because I wanted to document

433

and show people what we saw.

434

And then over time, both of

those picked up in popularity

435

and that led to the podcast.

436

And I realized that we really had stuff.

437

People were calling us up and I don't

have a sales department and people

438

say, Hey, we want to sponsor this.

439

And I I don't take sponsors on unless

they're long term, we don't do like a

440

monthly sponsor and people, cause I,

it's gotta be a product we agree on, but

441

it's turned into a pretty good business.

442

I have eight people now working for me.

443

In different areas from, we have

a team that has to manage, you can

444

imagine, what social media is right?

445

So 255, 000 active people on

our Facebook group, it requires

446

moderators 24 7 for that.

447

We have some writers and content creators.

448

I hired a manager to help run

the business aspects of it.

449

But up until the last three years,

it was just very serendipity.

450

But once you reach a certain

size audience, you find that

451

it just grows exponentially.

452

And I think that's um, I

don't know whose that is.

453

That's not mine.

454

Sounds like it's mine.

455

Shane Devenish: Eleanor

owes us all a beer.

456

Mike Wendland: Okay,

I'm looking for a phone.

457

But it just grew.

458

And we've, the one thing that we have done

is diversify Our audience the blog, which

459

usually gets about 300, 000 views a month.

460

Google just does, they do these

strange changes that in their algorithm

461

and it affects a lot of people.

462

And so then you move on to a different

platform to concentrate on, but we found

463

that the videos, we have about 180,

000 YouTube followers and the podcasts.

464

It gets a.

465

A little over a hundred thousand

downloads every month and then the

466

blog and then we've produced 18 books

eBooks that are travel guides to

467

different regions of North America.

468

So having all of those different

platforms one gives you, when one

469

suddenly changes and drops off, the

others will help pick that up and then

470

the others come back and all the time

it keeps to grow, it keeps growing.

471

And and that's the thing

that's been amazing.

472

The danger we face is do we become

so big that we can't travel anymore?

473

And that's what's happened to a couple

of, they call us influencers now.

474

And we've vowed that's

not going to happen to us.

475

We've, we do want to, the whole

reason we didn't do this is

476

because we like the lifestyle.

477

Brain Searl: That's what happened to me.

478

I used to do videos all the time and

I just have no time to do it anymore.

479

But also I didn't really have a

past, like a past doing videos,

480

like it sounds like you do, right?

481

So let me ask you this.

482

Does RV lifestyle always stay RV

lifestyle or do you want to go

483

glamping a couple times a year?

484

Mike Wendland: Or do I want to do what?

485

Brain Searl: You want to go glamping

a couple times a year and cover that.

486

Mike Wendland: Oh, as long as I can

do it in an RV or yeah, we can, we

487

think we just went, we have two RVs.

488

That's the other thing.

489

We try to change RVs every year.

490

So we are familiar with.

491

Many different models.

492

I have a Class C motorhome made by a

Leisure Travel Van up there in in in

493

I wanted to say Winkler, Manitoba,

and then we just bought actually we're

494

on our second one now, fifth wheel.

495

We have a Montana fifth

wheel, which is neat.

496

Talk about glamping.

497

Oh my goodness.

498

It's a condo on wheels.

499

So we, it's changed a lot.

500

We, our initial years were spent,

we did a lot of boondocking.

501

We really did.

502

And now it's a mix

between boondocking and.

503

Harvest hosts and campgrounds

that we find in the fifth

504

wheel, we want to stay longer.

505

We get to investigate the area a little

bit and do more stories about the region.

506

And we ended up two years ago, buying

some property in middle Tennessee.

507

And five acres of property and

kind of a little small mountaintop.

508

And we've put three RV sites in there,

which we don't rent them, but we use

509

them for ourselves and our friends.

510

And that becomes a little

retreat, a private retreat.

511

And we have found a huge trend

of RVers buying their own land.

512

So they always have a place

they know they can go and they

513

can stay as long as they want.

514

In this area we're in, there's

probably now a hundred other.

515

RVers from all over the country who

have bought similar sized parcels of

516

land and we're all in this general area

and it's amazing to see how many people

517

have said, this is an alternative.

518

Let's buy our own land and put

in, utilities and an RV pad.

519

So there's so many different aspects to

this is what I'm trying to get at here is

520

that it just shows no signs of lighting

up and every area is so important.

521

That's the thing.

522

And I think there's so many different

ways to diversify as we were briefly

523

talking about rentals versus sales, right?

524

Those are two paths of probably many,

but that's people are buying smaller

525

trailers versus bigger trailers.

526

Yeah.

527

And so I think that diversification, that

openness, that willingness to adjust.

528

On a perview per state, per area,

per location basis is what's

529

really gonna help this industry

continue to thrive in the future.

530

Maybe.

531

Maybe that's maybe that means some of

you don't change, but certainly I'm

532

not saying everybody needs to change.

533

Phil Ingrassia: Yeah.

534

I think, one of the things that, you know,

and I've been doing this for 25 years now.

535

Is when I started, it seemed like people

were really focused on bigger units.

536

In fact, we would pursue legislation

to make them allow bigger units.

537

But over the last, and I think Mike,

since the downturn and the industry's

538

recovery over the last, 12 years.

539

We've seen the manufacturers

and the dealers embrace the

540

diversity of use of products.

541

And a lot of the volume has been driven

by a smaller more towable travel trailers.

542

That's where a lot of the volume is.

543

And and there really is

something for everyone.

544

Whereas, when I started,

you'd go to a dealership and

545

everything big was up front.

546

They'd hide the, hide some of

the smaller units in the back.

547

Oh yeah, we do have some of those.

548

Now, it's almost completely flipped.

549

You see the lot more

affordable product up front.

550

Yes, you can buy an RV, you can be, this

could be you, type of messaging that, go

551

RVing is done, but also the dealers and

the manufacturers to bring more people in.

552

And recognize that, not everybody is

going to buy the biggest motor home

553

or the biggest travel trailer they

can and just make it more accessible

554

for millions of more North Americans.

555

Mike Wendland: Our first maybe the

first five years that we have been doing

556

this we spent the Van Life movement.

557

We watched that come in.

558

We watched the, the whole.

559

Possibility to boondock once we've

had lithium batteries and solar panels

560

and the ability to literally be off

the grid for days and sometimes if

561

you have enough, weeks at a time.

562

Phil Ingrassia: And then, we have

now seen a lot of the vanlifers,

563

they've gotten older and they've

moved into into Class Cs.

564

Some smaller, those, the whole

small Class A movement in motorhomes

565

has been pretty amazing to watch.

566

we've seen more people move

into towables and fifth wheels.

567

And there is a progression in that,

that, and I don't know if that was there

568

always Phil and Eleanor, I don't know

whether you guys have always seen that

569

in, from dealers that people would move

from one to another, or if that is now.

570

Kind of the maturing of the

RV consumer market as well.

571

But we, I've watched them,

you can see them almost grow.

572

Okay, it's about time for

you guys to get a towable.

573

And that's indeed what they do,

and you watch and move on and up.

574

No more one RV for the

rest of our life, a thing.

575

Eleonore Hamm: Yeah, we've seen that.

576

That's been ongoing for as

long as I've been here as well.

577

It's some of the dealers said first

of all, it became bigger, and then

578

it became a little bit smaller.

579

As you go through your journey,

you may start off with a smaller

580

travel trailer with your kids and

then your kids get a little bigger.

581

You need a little bit more space.

582

Then, as as it's just couples, they

might go into the fifth wheel and then,

583

and then transition back to a class B.

584

Definitely, I don't know what the

average ownership of an RV is it's only

585

about three or four years, I think.

586

So before people move on

to another product type.

587

Brain Searl: Interesting to hear you

guys thoughts on something again,

588

I'm just brushing my mind up coming

from the Camping Inventory Convention

589

and their keynote speaker was Earl

Hunter from Black Folks Camp 2.

590

And he was talking about the virtue,

equity, and inclusion and streaming.

591

You guys have heard of him before and he's

attempting to do in the industry, which

592

I think is a good thing, but how do we.

593

And not even specifically

to black folks, right?

594

How do we, as an industry, reach out

to those who don't normally purchase

595

RVs, who don't normally go camping,

and make sure, and this is like young

596

people who live in urban areas, right?

597

White people who aren't camping

in the numbers that their

598

grandparents did, because they're

diversifying their vacations.

599

But how do we reach out to those

people and explain to them the

600

benefits of the RV lifestyle, so

they're not just becoming lampers?

601

Mike Wendland: From our standpoint,

just show them what it's like.

602

The like two generations down, I guess

it'd be the, everybody was talking

603

about the millennials and I think the

millennials have adopted this great.

604

So it's the generation after them

and the exes that I think that they

605

have picked up on this on their own.

606

There's this great interest

in the environment and the

607

outdoors, and there is no.

608

Better way to truly experience the

outdoor than through the RV lifestyle.

609

I think, the go RVing campaigns have

been right on pretty much on all of them.

610

I think if I was a dealer, I would post

as many photos as I can on my website

611

and at my locations that show people.

612

Camping.

613

I noticed General RV has

just done a big section.

614

They've hired a chef and they're doing a

bunch of videos showing cooking outside,

615

which is another thing that is, you can

do anything from Dutch oven at a campfire

616

and people are more sophisticated.

617

The foodie element of RVing is there.

618

so Show the use of an

RV and just how, yeah.

619

Awesome it is, whether it's a family,

how close you become when you camp,

620

whether you're a solo we guess about

15 percent of all of our audience

621

are solo travelers, are many of them

widows, many of them divorced many just

622

single folks who have gone out and are

now, being able to work remotely or

623

if they're retired they're traveling.

624

These aren't people who are

marginal, they're not sleeping in

625

a Walmart parking lot every night.

626

There are people who have pretty

good incomes, but they have

627

adopted the nomadic lifestyle.

628

15% I think that's probably pretty

true of all of the RVs out there.

629

If you looked at all the statistics,

but just go to RV rally and

630

you'll see how many people, how

many solo travelers there are.

631

That's a great market.

632

All of the groups, the niche groups that

have developed around them, for example,

633

that the solo female, and most of the

solo travelers are female, are women.

634

I'm thinking of Sisters on the Fly and two

or three other groups like that are huge.

635

Let me push, I

636

Brain Searl: just want to push for

a second and you guys can agree,

637

disagree with me if you want.

638

And this is not really me, this is

just what I heard Earl say and a

639

few other people at the conference

who have tried to expand upon this.

640

I think the RV industry has done a great

job of doing everything you just said.

641

So go RV, it's a great organization,

great campaigns and commercials.

642

There's tons of Facebook groups and pages

like yours and others who do a good job

643

of regularly promoting the camping and RV

lifestyle and all those kinds of things.

644

Enjoy the outdoors.

645

But there are a lot of people.

646

A lot of people in this country who

never even consider the outdoors, like

647

it never crosses their mind that's

something they can do, or they associate

648

it just with tenting, or, right?

649

And so I think there in some ways needs

to be a concerted effort to educate people

650

that the outdoors is a good experience,

generally speaking, which then leads to

651

In our case of our conversation, purchases

of RVs, rentals of RVs down the road,

652

there are a lot of people who don't even

consider this, and they're not going to

653

go to those Facebook groups, they're not

going to turn on, and demographically

654

I know this right, they're not going

to turn on country music television and

655

watch the GoRVing commercial, they're

going to be on the urban, and GoRVing is

656

not putting ads there as far as I know.

657

So how do we do that?

658

How do we make that work

is what I'm trying to say.

659

Mike Wendland: I don't, I think that

there's a certain, the RV lifestyle

660

is great, it's not for everybody.

661

And I think that

662

Brain Searl: I think it's for a lot

more people than we're currently.

663

I really believe that.

664

Mike Wendland: I don't think the industry

can handle a lot more people right now.

665

I think the real reason you're

probably not seeing it is, number one.

666

The elephant in the room is that if

you are, if you don't have cash, you're

667

going to pay an incredible amount

of money to finance something that,

668

you're probably only going to use for

three or four years before you either

669

trade up or say that's enough for me.

670

But there are, and it's always been

that way, that there are a lot of

671

people that don't like outdoors.

672

They don't go hiking, they don't go

fishing, they don't take photographs.

673

They like to go to the clubs and

they like the urban lifestyle.

674

And I don't, I think that it is

a lifestyle that is truly not for

675

everybody because we've run into

a lot of people who've gotten

676

into it, have been talked into it.

677

And, and I think we find that

after about seven months.

678

People, there's a drop off of a

certain percentage of people say,

679

that is not, that's too much work.

680

But that's a drop off

of a certain percentage.

681

So if you take, let's just make up a

number, if you take a hundred people out

682

of it, and we're just going to make up an

area, we would like the nightlife, like

683

you said, or clubbing or whatever else.

684

And they've never thought

about the outdoors.

685

If you bring a hundred of those into

the RV industry and there's a 60

686

percent drop off, 70 percent drop

off, that's still 30 new people in

687

the RV industry, it's a win, right?

688

I think it's, I agree with you.

689

I don't think we want, I don't think

you're ever going to convince everyone

690

to like the RV industry lifestyle.

691

That's not my argument.

692

My argument is how do we make sure

that everybody might like it as the

693

opportunity to see it as an option

and then choose for themselves because

694

a lot of people see it as an option.

695

Phil Ingrassia: In the U.

696

S., I think that it's been

recognized by the outdoor recreation

697

It's not just an RV problem or a

camping problem, it's an overall

698

outdoor recreation problem.

699

Brain Searl: Yes.

700

Phil Ingrassia: And see...

701

In the U.

702

S.

703

there's a concerted effort to to

get more people outside in general.

704

Get them away from screens

and get them to enjoy that.

705

But the issue that we found in study

after study is if they don't grow up

706

doing things outside, if they don't

grow up fishing, if they don't have

707

access to that kind of activity,

it's very difficult once you've.

708

You've hit a certain age to get people

to want to do that kind of activity.

709

noW, before it was always what's the

ROI on these youth outreach things?

710

We don't want to spend money on

something that's going to take 15 years.

711

15 years...

712

Where are you?

713

If you don't start now, what, where

are you going to be in 15 years?

714

So through the Outdoor

Recreation Roundtable in the U.

715

S., we've Thor Industries has been a big

funder of this effort Together Outdoors,

716

where we're trying to provide access to

more youth groups, inner city type folks,

717

some scholarships, things like that.

718

But, it is, it's a very difficult.

719

issue to, to deal with.

720

And it doesn't mean we shouldn't try and

we are, but I think there's got to be more

721

emphasis on outdoor activities for youth.

722

Otherwise we're going to be, we, the

five people 15 years from now could be

723

having this exact same conversation.

724

And I think part of it is, What

are the public land agencies

725

doing to encourage urban, it's

not just an outdoor activities.

726

And then what is the

industry doing, itself?

727

anD so I think it's a multi pronged

approach to To try to to try to get

728

people outside, especially young folks

between the ages of 5 and 15, get them

729

an outdoor experience that, that, right

away so that they're, they have a frame of

730

reference for later in life when they be,

when they might be making discretionary

731

or outdoor travel purchase decisions.

732

Brain Searl: And to be fair, like I knew

the RV industry, including some of that,

733

which is I'm not saying you're not right.

734

It's great.

735

Everything that you're doing.

736

And I think.

737

Because I don't know enough about

the RV industry to know that, right?

738

I think that's an educated statement,

but I think that's the fundamentals

739

of that 15 years of building up that.

740

If you don't need to go camping, I'm

sorry, I almost said I broke, you don't

741

need to go camping once, you need to

go camping repeatedly, and I think

742

it's almost like your parents need

to be educated to take you camping.

743

Mike Wendland: Let me take just a

little different approach, and I think

744

that what you're, what we're saying

is an unprecedented, a continually, a

745

continuing unprecedented RV lifestyle.

746

By the general population, it is growing.

747

Some days we have a thousand people

try and join our Facebook group

748

in one day, a thousand people.

749

However, I think that what is more

important than reaching out to urban

750

kids to go out so outside is to

make sure that those who are in the

751

lifestyle now have a good experience.

752

And by that, the deplorable condition

of, I would say, the majority of

753

private campgrounds in this country.

754

Now, I know I'm stepping on

toes at something that's called

755

Modern Campground, and I...

756

Oh, so am I.

757

But I'm telling you, it is deplorable.

758

There are campsites that are rented at

60 bucks a night that are on a slant

759

like that, aging pedestals, and I know

there's a lot of campgrounds that are

760

doing as best they can to renovate, but

when people rent a spot, and you know

761

how hard it is to rent a spot, I mean

it's, that's the number one complaint I

762

get from RVers is that we, we can't, we

don't know what we're going to be doing

763

a year from now, we can't renovate,

we can't reserve a year in advance.

764

When they finally get one and they

have one of these experiences.

765

Or they get in a campground and

they find that there's no security

766

at the campground at night.

767

There's nobody from the front office

who's doing any patrolling at all

768

to make sure there's no rowdiness.

769

These kinds of experiences.

770

Echo through the public,

they'll come back.

771

Hey, we were there.

772

It was horrible.

773

For every good experience, that brings

in a new camper, a bad experience

774

is going to probably, if people talk

about the bad more than the good,

775

they're probably going to turn off.

776

Brain Searl: Of course they do.

777

That's human psychology, right?

778

But that's not just campgrounds.

779

Like you're not wrong.

780

You're not wrong.

781

thEre are a lot of bad

private campgrounds.

782

There are a lot of good

private campgrounds.

783

There are a lot of bad

public and good public.

784

There are a lot of bad RV manufacturers

and good RV manufacturers.

785

And so you're right.

786

The impression is everything.

787

Mike Wendland: Yeah so that I

think is the key to the future is

788

to give people a good experience.

789

On the dealership level another big

frustration and I understand the reasons.

790

I, that's gotta be one of the

toughest jobs in the world to

791

be a dealer an RV dealer today.

792

But when people have a problem and

they call up and they say, We can't

793

fix your RV for two weeks and, I'm 200

miles from home and I need a new water

794

pump, and tough, we can't get you in.

795

That hurts.

796

That hurts a whole lot.

797

And, the other big factor that I

think has hurt the industry people

798

are still coming into the industry.

799

There's still more interest than there is.

800

People turn it away, but the other factor

is the general quality of the RVs that

801

were built in the COVID years in the, in

802

And the industry, I think is realizing

that, but still quality remains an issue.

803

Dealer service is a big

issue and bad campgrounds.

804

If we had, if we could handle

those three things, I know.

805

That that would do a whole lot more

than holding an urban camp about

806

bringing a five year old kid outside.

807

And those are important to do, but we're

talking the big things with the industry.

808

It's those three things, and I'm telling

you that as a consumer not as an industry.

809

Brain Searl: I don't disagree, and

I want to give Phil and Eleanor

810

and Shana a chance to address the

service things, because I know they've

811

worked leaps and bounds in how we're

addressing that and things like that.

812

But I think...

813

I don't know that I agree with you that

all three things are important there.

814

I think it's equally as important to

try to get urban kids outdoors, right?

815

But that's just my opinion.

816

I'm not saying I'm right.

817

It's just what I think.

818

Mike Wendland: What you're asking

about the industry as a whole,

819

and I'm telling you, the industry

doesn't address these three issues.

820

That's going to have a much more...

821

There's no better detrimental effect

on the industry than getting five

822

year old kids to like the outdoors.

823

And it's just common sense, Brian.

824

It's just common sense.

825

Brain Searl: Let's give the industry a

chance to defend itself for a second.

826

I don't disagree with you.

827

But let's give the industry, like

the dealers for service and for

828

pain if you want to comment too.

829

What do you guys think of this?

830

Shane Devenish: I Don't

disagree with Mike at all.

831

I there there's current problems.

832

There's issues that we're all aware of.

833

And then to Phil's point, you need to...

834

to get the pipeline, create the

pipeline for newer buyers down the road.

835

So they're both issues.

836

One's today and one's the future, but

they're both very important for the,

837

the long the long, success for us all.

838

Mike, I'm curious, have you spent

much time up here in Canada?

839

Traveling around?

840

Mike Wendland: Not in the

last couple, not since COVID.

841

But probably I'll be up

there a lot next year.

842

We're doing a, we're leading

a big tour of the Maritimes.

843

And then we're going to probably spend

most of the rest of the summer I'm going

844

west from there, but up until COVID

and the shutdowns, I was there all the

845

time because I'm based in Michigan.

846

I've got the Blue Water

Bridge and Sault Ste.

847

Marie and I'm there.

848

And we still think of Canada as

God's country down here, even

849

though we have the upper planets

of Michigan, but it's Canada.

850

Shane Devenish: So those campground

remarks are south of the border then?

851

Mike Wendland: No, it's true.

852

Shane Devenish: I'm kidding.

853

Mike Wendland: You know that.

854

You know that.

855

Shane Devenish: I'm kidding.

856

Mike Wendland: Yeah you have the

most beautiful provincial parks,

857

though, that I think put some of

our national parks to shame, really,

858

in terms of access and beauty.

859

The provincial parks are,

in Canada, are just amazing.

860

They rival the national parks

that we're used to in the U.

861

S.,

862

Eleonore Hamm: thank you.

863

Yeah, from dealerships, we understand

that the service side and, it's been an

864

industry issue that we've been trying to

get, more people, it's a red seal trade

865

in Canada, more RV service technicians,

more people in the industry it's something

866

we dedicate a lot of resources to, to

try to talk about the career paths,

867

And people, yes, are using RVs, but

they do need to get fixed and to get,

868

it's, if you asked our dealers, it's

probably one of, one of their challenges

869

is to find enough technicians, right?

870

And so it's it's definitely something

we're aware of and we know as an industry,

871

we need to continue to address and

continue to build on so that, consumers do

872

stay in the lifestyle because we attract

them, but we need to ensure that, that we

873

do, that they do have a great experience.

874

Phil Ingrassia: Yeah, the service

issue is really front and center

875

for I know for RVDA in the U.

876

S.

877

and I know for Canada as well.

878

And it's a capacity issue and more

service bays are needed, but you need

879

to have techs to put in those bays.

880

And then it's also a supply chain issue.

881

We've got to, in our industry,

figure out how to get.

882

Parts to the dealers in time,

accurately, so that they can

883

get RVers back on the road.

884

And, right now the big buzzword in the

industry is repair event cycle time.

885

And that's the time, when you

bring in your RV, Mike, and

886

time it takes to get fixed.

887

And before you can take it

home and go camping again.

888

We're well aware of that, I think.

889

There's probably more effort in that

area right now than there ever has been.

890

And we just invited 1.

891

5 million new RVers over the last three

years, um, into the industry and we owe it

892

to them to do a better job on repair event

cycle time and getting people through.

893

But there's some other

issues that we're having and.

894

tHe care and feeding of new technicians

is a big one of those as well.

895

Mike Wendland: I think one of the

hardest things it seems to me for a

896

dealer would be, it's still a very

seasonal business for everybody north

897

of that Mason Dixon line and trying to

maintain a staff for the peak season and

898

then still have people that will work.

899

I Can't imagine those challenges.

900

I did notice that some of the

industry training groups were

901

doing some pretty cool things.

902

They were reaching out in some of

our prisons and training new techs.

903

We're seeing a national and in the

U S and I would suspect in Canada as

904

well, although I don't know for sure,

an emphasis on vocational training.

905

And boy, right now, being an RV

tech, that's pretty good, that's

906

a pretty good in demand job.

907

So I think more publicity to those

opportunities, those employment

908

opportunities would sure help.

909

Brain Searl: All right, guys.

910

We have two minutes left.

911

Any final thoughts here from our

recurring guests or from Mike?

912

Shane Devenish: Yeah, no, it's been

great to hear Mike's perspective because

913

he's, has, so much, um, experience

and touches so many people out there.

914

It's really good to hear your

perspective on everything, Mike.

915

Phil Ingrassia: Yeah, Mike I've

seen your material over the years.

916

I just didn't realize how

much it has grown in just a

917

relatively short period of time.

918

It's Quite impressive the number

of folks you have involved.

919

Mike Wendland: Yeah, it's, as

it's a really fun industry.

920

It's really just fun to be a part of all

this and to be able to, make a living

921

going out and And touring we didn't talk

at all, but the whole idea of remote work

922

is, and I want to, that's where I've seen

a great improvement in our campgrounds.

923

So the ability to let people work

from the road by improving their

924

internet access at campgrounds, uh,

that's sure been a game changer.

925

And to get more people into the

industry, one other thing that Brian,

926

I think that would help is to continue

to advocate for remote work, because

927

as more people urge their people back

into the office, that means they aren't

928

going to be out there in their RVs.

929

And beauty is you.

930

You can do just about, most of our

service are, in our information age

931

economy, you can do most jobs, many

jobs from anywhere, including an RV.

932

So that's a great thing

to keep pushing for.

933

Brain Searl: 100 percent agree with you.

934

Yeah.

935

Oh, all thank you guys for joining us

for another episode of MC Fireside Chats.

936

Dave, Eleanor, Bill, our regular

guests, really appreciate

937

you being here as always.

938

Mike, it was great to hear from you.

939

And you can tell once in a

while, I have strong opinions.

940

But that doesn't mean I'm right?

941

I just like pushing back and hearing

different dialogue, and it's great

942

to hear your perspective, too.

943

Again, I'm never saying I'm right,

I'm just saying that this is where

944

I currently believe now, right?

945

So it's great to hear from that side, too.

946

Mike Wendland: Great

to hear from you guys.

947

Thank you so much.

948

Shane Devenish: Happy thanksgiving.

949

Brain Searl: Happy thanksgiving.

950

Phil Ingrassia: Happy Holidays.

951

Mike Wendland: Bye bye, everybody.