The MC Fireside Chats episode on December 3rd, 2025, focused on data, trends, and the future of the outdoor hospitality industry, led by host Brian Searl. The panel included Phil Ingrassia, President of the RV Dealers Association of America (RVDA); Scott Bahr, President of the Cairn Consulting Group; Simon Neal, Founder of CampMap; Miguel Huerta, President of the Mexican Glamping Association; and special guests Deneen Allen, CEO and Founder of Firecircle; and Jen Ballenger, owner of Jim & Mary's RV Park.

Phil Ingrassia opened the discussion by sharing the RVIA wholesale shipment forecast for North America for 2026, noting a cautious optimism based on incremental improvement. He detailed that RV shipments in the US and Canada in 2025 were up about 3% year-over-year, with the 2026 forecast projecting another incremental growth of roughly 2% to 3%. Phil attributed this cautious outlook to lower interest rates, hoped-for tariff stability, and an expected increase in income tax returns in the US, which typically feeds into discretionary spending. Scott Bahr inquired about the impact of higher-income markets, and Phil confirmed that while entry-level travel trailers drive volume, the higher-end fifth wheels are currently performing well, indicating a focus on more profitable mid-to-higher-level units. Deneen Allen asked Phil about Canadian efforts to attract new Canadians to RVing, and Phil discussed studies showing that 60% to 70% of pandemic buyers plan to buy an RV again, indicating strong retention.

Scott Bahr elaborated on new market entrants, noting a movement toward less expensive forms of RVing like boondocking and overlanding, but highlighted the robust and growing sector of using RVs for events, travel sports, and festivals, with the older millennial group being a key driver. Jen Ballenger confirmed this trend, stating that her park in Missoula, Montana, has seen a great job in attracting event-based travel, emphasizing that RVing is perceived as budget traveling compared to dynamic hotel pricing, a point that Jen has observed over her 25 seasons of operation. Deneen Allen then asked the panel if this group trend represented an opportunity for RV parks to focus more on group camping infrastructure.

Miguel Huerta shifted the focus to the global hospitality market, reporting a decline in hotel demand across the US, Mexico, the UK, and Canada in 2025, with Mexico seeing the steepest drop at 12%. For glamping, Miguel noted steep declines in Spain, Mexico, and the UK, but a surprising 20% increase in demand for glamping sites in Canada. Miguel predicted the glamping industry, especially in Mexico, will consolidate, suggesting that sites designed for B2B or group bookings will be the ones to survive. He emphasized the massive revenue opportunity of the upcoming World Cup for RV and glamping operators, which could be monetized by putting low-entry models to work as Airbnbs.

The discussion turned to the complex relationship between pricing and the guest experience. Scott Bahr stressed that pricing is intrinsically part of the perception of the experience, and operators must effectively communicate the value to justify any increase. Deneen Allen supported this, advocating for a focus on delivering value and a "no discounting" philosophy, instead suggesting that operators set a base floor rate and utilize strategic framing or value-adds. Jen Ballenger noted that while she does offer discounts like Good Sam, she sees less complaining about incremental price increases because consumers understand that everything, including power and property taxes, has become more expensive.

In a final rapid-fire Q&A round, Jen Ballenger asked Scott Bahr about data on campers preferring mom-and-pop parks over corporate parks, to which Scott confirmed a large market for authenticity and rustic experiences. Scott Bahr asked Miguel Huerta about the market for rustic camping in Mexico, but Miguel stated the market is currently favoring more luxurious experiences. Miguel Huerta asked Simon Neal about his 2026 outlook, and Simon expressed optimism that the year would be better than 2025. Simon Neal asked Phil Ingrassia about campgrounds capitalizing on the World Cup by using RVs as rentals, and Phil confirmed that major RV rental companies are already gearing up for a big year due to the World Cup and the US America 250 celebration. Phil Ingrassia asked Jen Ballenger for advice for RV dealers preparing first-time buyers, and Jen recommended dealers focus on setting them up with tools for advance planning and spending more time demonstrating essential tasks like sewer dumping and breaker box location. Finally, Deneen Allen asked Phil Ingrassia about the RV resale market for entrepreneurs considering used RVs for glamping setups, and Phil responded that RV values on used units have been steady, noting that two used RVs are typically sold for every new one. Scott Bahr concluded by announcing a new research initiative focused on Gen Z attraction to the industry.

[00:00:10] Brian Searl: We've got Miguel from the Mexican Glamping Association, Scott from Cairn Consulting, Phil from RVDA. Deneen and Jen are our special guests, and Simon Neal from CampMap all the way from Croatia.

[00:00:26] Phil Ingrassia: Hi, I'm Phil Ingrassia. I'm President of the RV Dealers Association of America. We represent motorhome and travel trailer dealers all across the US.

[00:00:44] Scott Bahr: I'm Scott Bahr, the President of the Cairn Consulting Group. We're a market research organization conducting market research across outdoor hospitality and the RVing world as well. So yeah, we're pretty much immersed in data from dawn till dusk. Even longer now because the days are too short.

[00:01:08] Scott Bahr: Yes, it is.

[00:01:16] Scott Bahr: That's like a rubber plant.

[00:01:24] Simon Neal: Yeah, I'm Simon, the founder of CampMap. So a web platform that helps campsites and campgrounds improve marketing and guest experience with digital premium site maps.

[00:01:45] Miguel Huerta: Hello, everyone. I'm Miguel. I'm the President of the Mexican Glamping Association. I get a little bit better weather nowadays compared to the rest of the folks. So I'm happy to be here. I think that this might be the last show of the year, is it?

[00:02:13] Miguel Huerta: Where's the sparkling wine and like the 2026 glasses and whatever?

[00:02:20] Scott Bahr: Thank you, Miguel. Thank you for bringing that up.

[00:02:33] Brian Searl: Deneen and Jen are our two special guests. Deneen, you want to go first?

[00:03:22] Brian Searl: That's awesome. Yeah. Anytime we can facilitate conversations between people, we always end up learning more, I think. So. Jen? Last but not least, of course.

[00:03:39] Brian Searl: How did you get Jim & Mary's RV Park and your name's Jen?

[00:04:02] Brian Searl: That's got to be the most interesting push and pull ever. Because you're right, I'm a marketing guy, and when I come in and people are like, "I'm gonna take over a campground or buy or change a brand name that's existed for 20 or 30 years that has a really good following," and you're like, "Well, you probably shouldn't change the name." But that's a really unique, interesting like... "I swear I own it. It's called Jim & Mary's, but my name is Jen. I promise you, I really am the owner."

[00:04:31] Brian Searl: I like it. Glass half full. Always come from a positive perspective.

[00:04:52] Phil Ingrassia: Well, a couple things came out this week actually. One was the RVIA wholesale shipment forecast for North America for 2026. And, you know, a lot of people have been watching this with, you know, a lot of economic uncertainty on both sides of the border, tariffs hanging over everybody a little bit.

[00:05:35] Phil Ingrassia: And then the 2026 forecast that just came out is showing some more incremental growth for 2026, probably around that same, you know, 2% to 3% increase over 2025. So, you know, we're seeing kind of a stairstep increase in RV activity, which overall is good.

[00:06:34] Phil Ingrassia: So those are some tailwinds I think that we have that are helping push us along. But you never know, you know, there's always things going on. But I guess cautious optimism is the thing here.

[00:06:58] Brian Searl: Yeah, I mean, I think that's cautious optimism for everybody. For the RV industry, for the campground industry, for me in marketing and AI. Like, it's all cautious optimism. It seems to be teetering on a like, "Which way is it gonna go? We're not sure." But like, as long as Phil's working with RVDA and working with your dealers and your members and the RVIA and all those other people to make everything we can do build a really good foundational base. Like if we're doing everything we can do, we're setting the foundation for if it lifts off, it does. If it doesn't, then that's not what we want, but at least we're doing everything we can, right?

[00:08:03] Scott Bahr: Phil, I have a question for you. In some of the forecasts I see, not in the RV industry but in other sectors, saying that a lot of the improvements—for example, retail sales overall—being driven by the higher income category markets are projected to spend a little bit more this year. Do you think that's being reflected in this, and is it impacting the types of models that are being shipped and being requested out there from the dealerships?

[00:09:20] Phil Ingrassia: And it is a discretionary income purchase, let's face it. It's like boats, it's like powersports. RVs are not something that gets you to work every day. People gotta be feeling good about their jobs, about the stock market. All these things that are baked into consumer sentiment.

[00:09:42] Deneen Allen: Could I ask Phil a question? Phil, I wondered in Canada, when the numbers came off after COVID, I wondered if there was any concerted effort happening up here with new Canadians and educating them on the RV industry and the opportunity for camping and teaching them how to camp using an RV or trailer, any version of an RV. How does that happen down in the US? Is any of the lift coming from immigration, from new Americans? Or how would you describe the sort of the bulk of the market?

[00:10:44] Phil Ingrassia: And we've done some studies and remarkably, and maybe not remarkably, but between 60% and 70%, depending on the product type, of those pandemic buyers are gonna buy again or at least are telling people that they're considering buying again. Which is pretty good. So we're holding onto those folks, which I think is great.

[00:11:37] Brian Searl: Is there any data that RVDA or RVIA collects about what people are planning to use the RVs for? Like long-term, transient, BLM land, private campgrounds? Like is there any data that's collected about that?

[00:11:53] Scott Bahr: Yeah, we do. RVIA does collect that information quarterly.

[00:12:17] Scott Bahr: You're gonna see a little bit of movement, it looks like, toward the less expensive forms of RVing. You know, staying in a little bit more boondocking, a little bit more BLM land. Overlanding is a growing sector. We're seeing that pop up a lot more as well.

[00:13:13] Scott Bahr: And also just festivals and so on. Those things are all very robust. We didn't see a drop-off. I thought we might see a drop-off like after in the COVID, post-COVID years, but in fact, we've seen growth in those areas. People see the RV as an opportunity to kind of... The group stuff is something we're seeing a lot more of. It was down for years after RVers. It seemed like we're a lot part of these groups and so on. But now it's a lot of self-initiated and we're seeing a lot some climbing interest in that. The older millennial group, surprisingly enough, is really kind of driving a lot of that.

[00:14:03] Jen Ballenger: Yeah. So here in Missoula and Montana in general, what I would say is I would echo what Scott just said. Events, sporting events, music, festivals. My town in particular has done a great job of bringing a lot of new events to town and promoting those nationwide.

[00:15:31] Brian Searl: I had an interesting discussion about that actually on LinkedIn the other day. I was talking to you guys about how I have my AI agent post on LinkedIn. And it wrote a topic about how Waymo was expanding their self-driving cars to multiple additional cities in the United States. And it tied that in as I have it do with RV parks and how that changes the landscape of that. And what it ended up coming out with was like, this is going to be interesting for RVers who travel and don't get involved in the local community maybe as much as they should because they don't have a tow-away vehicle or it's expensive to get into town or whatever else. And so when you—and this is years away—but when you have thousands of those vehicles on the street and you can just get a Waymo and you can take it into town and you don't have to worry about unhooking and bringing a towable with you and doing all that stuff, I think that helps the local communities a lot more too.

[00:16:18] Deneen Allen: Is this trend, if we think it's here to stay, is this an opportunity for RV parks to focus a little bit more on the group camping infrastructure? So that they're gathering, you know, you can get all the RVs in one area, you have one fire pit or one pavilion or something that is group focused. Do you see an opportunity there?

[00:16:56] Scott Bahr: Absolutely.

[00:16:59] Brian Searl: Like how does this work? Is the glamping industry set up in Mexico to welcome these types of groups, family reunions, stuff like that? Do you guys see a lot of that?

[00:17:46] Miguel Huerta: Now, and from this, the country that has had the steepest decline has been Mexico, which had 12% less demand for hotels in 2025 compared to the first 11 months of 2025 to the first 11 months of 2024. Now when we are talking about glamping, things are looking up a little bit. Although we have steep declines in Spain that had a 5% decrease, Mexico which we have 7% decrease. And the UK surprisingly has had a 10% decrease on demand for glamping sites. But I think that the country that has gotten the most traction and the most increase on demand for glamping is Canada with a 20% increase. And I think that it has to do with the tariffs and we all stayed home.

[00:18:49] Miguel Huerta: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now when, now that we have seen that this has been a very rough year for the industry pretty much regardless of the country, I think that the glampings that will not only survive but will actually make a decent return on the investment will be the ones that are catering their commercial strategy for B2B or this type of groups and parties of people.

[00:19:51] Miguel Huerta: But I mean, sure, it sounds that I'm being very grim on the industry. But I think that there's a light at the end of the tunnel, which is the World Cup that we have been discussing which is bound to happen this upcoming summer. So a lot of, and why I'm bringing this to the table pretty much for the last three or four shows, is because a lot of Americans, they don't realize how big this is.

[00:21:09] Miguel Huerta: Of course glampings are important. The issue will be, I foresee that a lot of glamping sites pretty much all over the world, as the industry is maturing, we're going to see a lot of them closing their doors. So only the ones that have designed their property and their commercial efforts to bring in groups will survive in this very tough environment.

[00:21:51] Miguel Huerta: Yeah, but to me, and I mentioned this in my last participation, the guest experience, if you take a look on the five Ps of marketing: people, price, promotion, place, and products—sorry. The product it's very interesting, but if you don't have the right promotion in place, it will be hard for people to know. And a lot of the newcomers to the industry are focusing too much on the guest experience, like okay that they read them well when they arrive to the location, that they have somebody taking care of them during they stay. But sadly, to me that only... Since most of the sales are done over the internet, this guest experience to me goes in the People category that sadly you won't get to experience until you are in the location.

[00:23:25] Brian Searl: Yeah, you're not wrong. I mean Scott and I spend a lot of time on—like we're gonna talk on Outwired later about guest experience. And we try to drill that home because we see that there's a little bit of a lack of it in the United States specifically, which is where we're most familiar with. But you're not wrong. It can't just be guest experience. It has to be guest experience combined with telling the story, combined with showing people how it is before the promotion. And then also of course price comes into account, right? I think price is going to be the thing that's going to hurt a lot of people in 2026. But then if you get price out of the way, and you still have as we talked about this K-shaped economy where the top 10% are spending 50% of the consumer discretionary spending in the United States. Those people, after you discount price, are still willing to maybe take a vacation instead of two. But then where they're going to go I think is dictated by the guest experience, I think. Maybe a little bit about price. But guest experience with price, whereas the lower income would be just price, right? Is that fair or am I off base?

[00:38:50] Scott Bahr: So it's a fine line and it's hard. And I know exactly what you're saying, Deneen, because we did some research in post-COVID about overcrowding at campgrounds, for example. And everybody kept saying that there were no campsites available. But all the campground owners are saying, "We have plenty of sites." And what it was is chatter. It was a lot of chatter out there that was creating this. We found that something like over half the people who said that there was overcrowding had not even personally experienced it.

[00:39:54] Scott Bahr: So it's important to work with a professional who knows how to communicate and knows how to address this because, again, whatever the person pays, that's how they're going to perceive you. And increases... there's a perception that goes with it. Most people are pretty reasonable. We do price sensitivity research by the way, and I've priced a lot of different things. But it's one of those things you gotta kind of find that zone of tolerance, but understand that how they perceive you when they stay there, the price is going to come into the mix with all the experiences and everything they had. If it doesn't, you've done your job right.

[00:42:13] Brian Searl: The Price is Right, yes. Jen, tell us how you think about this at your RV park.

[00:42:48] Jen Ballenger: And the older guests back when my price was half or less of what it is today complained about the price. Would come in and sometimes say... you know the story, just kind of a snarky comment, "Holy cow, that's so expensive." And one trend that I have seen, and maybe as the demographic has changed, but even with those older guests, people are paying more for everything. And they're complaining a lot less at me about my prices. Now I did no huge jumps. We creep up a little bit every year. We did a little bit more during and post-COVID. But we keep it incremental until we catch up to where we want to be so that it's not a sticker shock because we do have a ton of repeat guests.

[00:44:15] Jen Ballenger: So if that's their goal, a discount is an incentive. It takes a little sting out of it. And I know, Deneen, you say no discounts, but there are a lot of camper clubs, Good Sam and here in the US anyway, that people get involved in for the value of it. And it's 10%. We build our price around that because a lot of people have it. And they think... I'm guilty of it when I shop too. Like if I get a little 10% discount, it makes me feel a little bit better about the money that I spend. And maybe the increase in the rate year over year too.

[00:45:12] Deneen Allen: Yeah. And I think you can frame those discounts in fun ways that... and you're always moving off that floor rate. You're never going below that floor that you've set as "this is our base price." So 100%, there's so many promotions that we can do, so many fun ways of offering additional value. Sometimes it's giving something that doesn't cost you a lot to give to them instead of discounting the rate, right? So it might be something they get on arrival. It might be something you do that is a very low incremental cost to you, but you know, it's third night for a discount, right? Or something like this. Especially in glamping where you're really mimicking the overhead of a room night in a hotel where you've got housekeeping and things like that, right? Additional.

[00:46:54] Brian Searl: I want to spend the last couple minutes of the show—we have 13 minutes left. I'm gonna try something new virtually. We've only done it in show or in person at the OHI conference and then we did it at KOA. Where I want each of you guys to ask a question to one other guest. But one other guest, but you can only ask one person one time. So what I mean by that is like, Jen, if you ask Phil a question, no one else can ask Phil a question. And then we'll just do process of elimination and we'll see if we can get some good answers out of people. Anything you want to ask anybody. We'll start with our special guests. We'll do Jen first. Pick anybody you want.

[00:48:43] Scott Bahr: It does vary. And there is a very large market for folks who would like to stay at the mom-and-pop types of parks with maybe not all the bells and whistles that you get at other locations. There's a movement right now for a little bit more disconnection. People want authenticity in their experiences. They maybe, like where you're at near Missoula, the whole idea of immersion in the culture there in Missoula, in the town, the food, the experiences, the surrounding lands that you're by, that's what people are seeking.

[00:49:42] Scott Bahr: So what we've been seeing is that there is a movement toward... I sometimes joke and I call it the Luddite movement. People who want to be a little bit more disconnected, a little bit more...

[00:49:58] Scott Bahr: I know. I like using Luddite though around Brian. But no, I know exactly what you're saying. It's like, yeah, and we saw that we saw that peek up a little bit last year among some of the younger folks that there's that desire there. They're not doing it yet, but that desire is there for something a little bit more rustic, Phil. And so it's... and I see there being in especially in some areas a movement toward that.

[00:50:48] Brian Searl: Well, Scott, you're next. You get to ask somebody now. We're going in...

[00:51:23] Miguel Huerta: Can you define rustic just so we are aligned?

[00:51:32] Miguel Huerta: Got it. Okay. Well, actually, the Mexican market I think that it's priming right now the other side of the spectrum, you know. Not rustic, but more luxurious. At the end, people want to get more from the peso that they are paying for their experience.

[00:52:30] Miguel Huerta: And the ones that survive either they improve their product or... I mean basically they will improve their products. Most of the, let's call the corporate glamping operators in Mexico, I am not seeing that they are opening as many locations as they did, which basically it's three: Grupo Presidente, we have Wander Cabins, and Nantly Living, my company. Because I think that these corporate entities are being very cautious. Because as I was telling you, demand is decreasing, the product is getting more complex and more expensive. So at the end with the cost of labor, I mean you might as well build a regular hotel than a glamping site.

[00:54:07] Scott Bahr: No, no, that's great. That helps.

[00:54:13] Miguel Huerta: My turn. I'm gonna go with Simon. And I will ask him what's his vision for 2026, especially that you have a SaaS platform that allows you to see different markets very fast.

[00:55:16] Brian Searl: Your turn, Simon.

[00:55:36] Brian Searl: Sorry, I don't mean to rain on your parade, but you can't ask Miguel because somebody else already asked Miguel a question.

[00:55:37] Brian Searl: Oh, okay. All right. That's fair.

[00:56:04] Phil Ingrassia: Yeah, well there's a lot of things going on next year. And I was just talking to one of our major rental companies about some of what they call tailwinds that really should boost the US RV rental market next year. Not only do we have World Cup coming in, so a lot of international visitors coming to US, Mexico. But we also have America 250, which is the big celebration of 250 years of the United States founding. So there's going to be events all over the country and they are beefing up their rental operations as much as they can.

[00:57:30] Brian Searl: It's on you, Phil.

[00:58:09] Jen Ballenger: Um, you know, I guess I would have to say setting them up with some tools for advance planning. I think a lot of the bigger problems is people roll into town and there's no sites to be had because they haven't planned ahead. And those newbies maybe just don't know that they need to get on there and pre-book.

[00:59:07] Brian Searl: All right. Deneen is the last one. But Deneen, we've ran out of people for you to ask, so you can ask anybody then. You get a free-for-all.

[00:59:28] Phil Ingrassia: I do not have Canadian stats, and unfortunately, Eleonore Hamm, who's RVDA of Canada, isn't with us, but I can talk generally about resale.

[00:59:56] Phil Ingrassia: Well, there's an old saw that there's two used RVs sold for every new one that's sold every year. And that basically, amazingly, kind of holds up through almost every type of economic environment we're in. Dealers will sell about, depending on the dealership, maybe 30 to 40% of their volume could be used. But that varies quite a bit.

[01:00:43] Phil Ingrassia: RV values on used have been pretty much steady. I do think recently the values may have ticked up a bit because of the affordability issue. People are looking for a bargain and used are cheaper. But now with interest rates coming down, you know, when people are making those comparisons, should I buy new or should I buy used? And there's not that much difference in your monthly payment to that payment buyer between new and used. It's an easy decision to make to go new for a lot of folks.

[01:01:27] Brian Searl: All right. Well we are a couple minutes over here. I want to just wrap up the show. We'll just go one by one real quick. Jen, any final thoughts that you have and then just tell us where they can find more information about Jim & Mary's RV Park.

[01:01:49] Brian Searl: Love it. Thank you so much for being here, Jen. Simon?

[01:02:08] Brian Searl: Appreciate you being here, Simon. Miguel?

[01:02:22] Brian Searl: Yeah, you don't have the glasses, but you have the stocking behind you. We got that, right?

[01:02:34] Brian Searl: I'm coming over after this. How long is the flight?

[01:03:59] Brian Searl: Awesome. Thanks for being here, Miguel. And don't forget to reach out to me. We gotta set up the Mexico thing because I will forget. I'm old. You're young. So I'm putting it on you.

[01:04:10] Deneen Allen: Well, this has been wonderful. What a great format. Thanks for the invitation, Brian. And firecircle... thefirecircle.ca. You have to put "the" in front of Firecircle or you get some really weird websites. So thefirecircle.ca. We also do market and feasibility studies, we do physical design, we do operational mentorship, all kinds of things. Yeah, and we're just trying to grow the Canadian market up here. So thanks for inviting me.

[01:04:41] Phil Ingrassia: Well, it's just great. I just think this is a great forum because I'm always an "and" person. You can RV, you can camp, you can glamp. You can do all of these things. I think it's great to get everybody together to talk about these things.

[01:04:59] Phil Ingrassia: rvda.org.

[01:05:04] Scott Bahr: Yeah, we got a lot of new stuff coming out this coming year. So we're pretty excited about it. Just, I'd love to spend the next two hours telling you all about it in all the detail, but I won't. But I'll talk about a little bit. Yeah, I think we should do an episode to some of what I'm talking about. I've spent some time in development this year, at the end of the year here, this fall. And I'm pretty excited about some of the stuff we're working on. Working on some really cool stuff with Brian as well. And so stay tuned. cairnconsultinggroup.com. We have a resource library, a lot of reports and data and information there and we'll be posting more stuff on our website as well as LinkedIn. So yeah, stay tuned. I think it's gonna be a fun year. We're gonna do our best. One of the things I just want to say one last thing about one of the things we're working on this year, and if anyone wants to get involved at any level, please let me know, and that is I'm working on a research initiative on Gen Z. How do we attract more Gen Z folks in? I have started the process, but I'd love more minds put into it, and connections to young people. I want to mobilize them. So there, there's my pitch. Sorry I took so long.

[01:06:27] Brian Searl: Appreciate you guys joining us for another episode of MC Fireside Chats. It was a great conversation. It's the last one of the year, so this group together will see you in early 2026 for our first episode. I don't even know... do we have a first episode? It might be a holiday, so it might be two months. I don't know. We'll find out.

[01:06:59] Multiple Speakers: Bye-bye. Thank you.

[01:08:38] Brian Searl: We've got Miguel from the Mexican Glamping Association, Scott from Cairn Consulting, Phil from RVDA. Deneen and Jen are our special guests, and Simon Neal from CampMap all the way from Croatia.

[01:08:55] Phil Ingrassia: Hi, I'm Phil Ingrassia. I'm President of the RV Dealers Association of America. We represent motorhome and travel trailer dealers all across the US.

[01:09:13] Scott Bahr: I'm Scott Bahr, the President of the Cairn Consulting Group. We're a market research organization conducting market research across outdoor hospitality and the RVing world as well. So yeah, we're pretty much immersed in data from dawn till dusk. Even longer now because the days are too short.

[01:09:37] Scott Bahr: Yes, it is.

[01:09:44] Scott Bahr: That's like a rubber plant.

[01:09:52] Simon Neal: Yeah, I'm Simon, the founder of CampMap. So a web platform that helps campsites and campgrounds improve marketing and guest experience with digital premium site maps.

[01:10:14] Miguel Huerta: Hello, everyone. I'm Miguel. I'm the President of the Mexican Glamping Association. I get a little bit better weather nowadays compared to the rest of the folks. So I'm happy to be here. I think that this might be the last show of the year, is it?

[01:10:41] Miguel Huerta: Where's the sparkling wine and like the 2026 glasses and whatever?

[01:10:48] Scott Bahr: Thank you, Miguel. Thank you for bringing that up.

[01:11:02] Brian Searl: Deneen and Jen are our two special guests. Deneen, you want to go first?

[01:11:50] Brian Searl: That's awesome. Yeah. Anytime we can facilitate conversations between people, we always end up learning more, I think. So. Jen? Last but not least, of course.

[01:12:07] Brian Searl: How did you get Jim & Mary's RV Park and your name's Jen?

[01:12:30] Brian Searl: That's got to be the most interesting push and pull ever. Because you're right, I'm a marketing guy, and when I come in and people are like, "I'm gonna take over a campground or buy or change a brand name that's existed for 20 or 30 years that has a really good following," and you're like, "Well, you probably shouldn't change the name." But that's a really unique, interesting like... "I swear I own it. It's called Jim & Mary's, but my name is Jen. I promise you, I really am the owner."

[01:13:00] Brian Searl: I like it. Glass half full. Always come from a positive perspective.

[01:13:20] Phil Ingrassia: Well, a couple things came out this week actually. One was the RVIA wholesale shipment forecast for North America for 2026. And, you know, a lot of people have been watching this with, you know, a lot of economic uncertainty on both sides of the border, tariffs hanging over everybody a little bit.

[01:14:03] Phil Ingrassia: And then the 2026 forecast that just came out is showing some more incremental growth for 2026, probably around that same, you know, 2% to 3% increase over 2025. So, you know, we're seeing kind of a stairstep increase in RV activity, which overall is good.

[01:15:03] Phil Ingrassia: So those are some tailwinds I think that we have that are helping push us along. But you never know, you know, there's always things going on. But I guess cautious optimism is the thing here.

[01:15:26] Brian Searl: Yeah, I mean, I think that's cautious optimism for everybody. For the RV industry, for the campground industry, for me in marketing and AI. Like, it's all cautious optimism. It seems to be teetering on a like, "Which way is it gonna go? We're not sure." But like, as long as Phil's working with RVDA and working with your dealers and your members and the RVIA and all those other people to make everything we can do build a really good foundational base. Like if we're doing everything we can do, we're setting the foundation for if it lifts off, it does. If it doesn't, then that's not what we want, but at least we're doing everything we can, right?

[01:16:32] Scott Bahr: Phil, I have a question for you. In some of the forecasts I see, not in the RV industry but in other sectors, saying that a lot of the improvements—for example, retail sales overall—being driven by the higher income category markets are projected to spend a little bit more this year. Do you think that's being reflected in this, and is it impacting the types of models that are being shipped and being requested out there from the dealerships?

[01:17:49] Phil Ingrassia: And it is a discretionary income purchase, let's face it. It's like boats, it's like powersports. RVs are not something that gets you to work every day. People gotta be feeling good about their jobs, about the stock market. All these things that are baked into consumer sentiment.

[01:18:10] Deneen Allen: Could I ask Phil a question? Phil, I wondered in Canada, when the numbers came off after COVID, I wondered if there was any concerted effort happening up here with new Canadians and educating them on the RV industry and the opportunity for camping and teaching them how to camp using an RV or trailer, any version of an RV. How does that happen down in the US? Is any of the lift coming from immigration, from new Americans? Or how would you describe the sort of the bulk of the market?

[01:19:13] Phil Ingrassia: And we've done some studies and remarkably, and maybe not remarkably, but between 60% and 70%, depending on the product type, of those pandemic buyers are gonna buy again or at least are telling people that they're considering buying again. Which is pretty good. So we're holding onto those folks, which I think is great.

[01:20:05] Brian Searl: Is there any data that RVDA or RVIA collects about what people are planning to use the RVs for? Like long-term, transient, BLM land, private campgrounds? Like is there any data that's collected about that?

[01:20:21] Scott Bahr: Yeah, we do. RVIA does collect that information quarterly.

[01:20:45] Scott Bahr: You're gonna see a little bit of movement, it looks like, toward the less expensive forms of RVing. You know, staying in a little bit more boondocking, a little bit more BLM land. Overlanding is a growing sector. We're seeing that pop up a lot more as well.

[01:21:41] Scott Bahr: And also just festivals and so on. Those things are all very robust. We didn't see a drop-off. I thought we might see a drop-off like after in the COVID, post-COVID years, but in fact, we've seen growth in those areas. People see the RV as an opportunity to kind of... The group stuff is something we're seeing a lot more of. It was down for years after RVers. It seemed like we're a lot part of these groups and so on. But now it's a lot of self-initiated and we're seeing a lot some climbing interest in that. The older millennial group, surprisingly enough, is really kind of driving a lot of that.

[01:22:32] Jen Ballenger: Yeah. So here in Missoula and Montana in general, what I would say is I would echo what Scott just said. Events, sporting events, music, festivals. My town in particular has done a great job of bringing a lot of new events to town and promoting those nationwide.

[01:23:59] Brian Searl: I had an interesting discussion about that actually on LinkedIn the other day. I was talking to you guys about how I have my AI agent post on LinkedIn. And it wrote a topic about how Waymo was expanding their self-driving cars to multiple additional cities in the United States. And it tied that in as I have it do with RV parks and how that changes the landscape of that. And what it ended up coming out with was like, this is going to be interesting for RVers who travel and don't get involved in the local community maybe as much as they should because they don't have a tow-away vehicle or it's expensive to get into town or whatever else. And so when you—and this is years away—but when you have thousands of those vehicles on the street and you can just get a Waymo and you can take it into town and you don't have to worry about unhooking and bringing a towable with you and doing all that stuff, I think that helps the local communities a lot more too.

[01:24:47] Deneen Allen: Is this trend, if we think it's here to stay, is this an opportunity for RV parks to focus a little bit more on the group camping infrastructure? So that they're gathering, you know, you can get all the RVs in one area, you have one fire pit or one pavilion or something that is group focused. Do you see an opportunity there?

[01:25:24] Scott Bahr: Absolutely.

[01:25:27] Brian Searl: Like how does this work? Is the glamping industry set up in Mexico to welcome these types of groups, family reunions, stuff like that? Do you guys see a lot of that?

[01:26:15] Miguel Huerta: Now, and from this, the country that has had the steepest decline has been Mexico, which had 12% less demand for hotels in 2025 compared to the first 11 months of 2025 to the first 11 months of 2024. Now when we are talking about glamping, things are looking up a little bit. Although we have steep declines in Spain that had a 5% decrease, Mexico which we have 7% decrease. And the UK surprisingly has had a 10% decrease on demand for glamping sites. But I think that the country that has gotten the most traction and the most increase on demand for glamping is Canada with a 20% increase. And I think that it has to do with the tariffs and we all stayed home.

[01:27:17] Miguel Huerta: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now when, now that we have seen that this has been a very rough year for the industry pretty much regardless of the country, I think that the glampings that will not only survive but will actually make a decent return on the investment will be the ones that are catering their commercial strategy for B2B or this type of groups and parties of people.

[01:28:20] Miguel Huerta: But I mean, sure, it sounds that I'm being very grim on the industry. But I think that there's a light at the end of the tunnel, which is the World Cup that we have been discussing which is bound to happen this upcoming summer. So a lot of, and why I'm bringing this to the table pretty much for the last three or four shows, is because a lot of Americans, they don't realize how big this is.

[01:29:38] Miguel Huerta: Of course glampings are important. The issue will be, I foresee that a lot of glamping sites pretty much all over the world, as the industry is maturing, we're going to see a lot of them closing their doors. So only the ones that have designed their property and their commercial efforts to bring in groups will survive in this very tough environment.

[01:30:19] Miguel Huerta: Yeah, but to me, and I mentioned this in my last participation, the guest experience, if you take a look on the five Ps of marketing: people, price, promotion, place, and products—sorry. The product it's very interesting, but if you don't have the right promotion in place, it will be hard for people to know. And a lot of the newcomers to the industry are focusing too much on the guest experience, like okay that they read them well when they arrive to the location, that they have somebody taking care of them during they stay. But sadly, to me that only... Since most of the sales are done over the internet, this guest experience to me goes in the People category that sadly you won't get to experience until you are in the location.

[01:31:53] Brian Searl: Yeah, you're not wrong. I mean Scott and I spend a lot of time on—like we're gonna talk on Outwired later about guest experience. And we try to drill that home because we see that there's a little bit of a lack of it in the United States specifically, which is where we're most familiar with. But you're not wrong. It can't just be guest experience. It has to be guest experience combined with telling the story, combined with showing people how it is before the promotion. And then also of course price comes into account, right? I think price is going to be the thing that's going to hurt a lot of people in 2026. But then if you get price out of the way, and you still have as we talked about this K-shaped economy where the top 10% are spending 50% of the consumer discretionary spending in the United States. Those people, after you discount price, are still willing to maybe take a vacation instead of two. But then where they're going to go I think is dictated by the guest experience, I think. Maybe a little bit about price. But guest experience with price, whereas the lower income would be just price, right? Is that fair or am I off base?

[01:47:18] Scott Bahr: So it's a fine line and it's hard. And I know exactly what you're saying, Deneen, because we did some research in post-COVID about overcrowding at campgrounds, for example. And everybody kept saying that there were no campsites available. But all the campground owners are saying, "We have plenty of sites." And what it was is chatter. It was a lot of chatter out there that was creating this. We found that something like over half the people who said that there was overcrowding had not even personally experienced it.

[01:48:23] Scott Bahr: So it's important to work with a professional who knows how to communicate and knows how to address this because, again, whatever the person pays, that's how they're going to perceive you. And increases... there's a perception that goes with it. Most people are pretty reasonable. We do price sensitivity research by the way, and I've priced a lot of different things. But it's one of those things you gotta kind of find that zone of tolerance, but understand that how they perceive you when they stay there, the price is going to come into the mix with all the experiences and everything they had. If it doesn't, you've done your job right.

[01:50:42] Brian Searl: The Price is Right, yes. Jen, tell us how you think about this at your RV park.

[01:51:17] Jen Ballenger: And the older guests back when my price was half or less of what it is today complained about the price. Would come in and sometimes say... you know the story, just kind of a snarky comment, "Holy cow, that's so expensive." And one trend that I have seen, and maybe as the demographic has changed, but even with those older guests, people are paying more for everything. And they're complaining a lot less at me about my prices. Now I did no huge jumps. We creep up a little bit every year. We did a little bit more during and post-COVID. But we keep it incremental until we catch up to where we want to be so that it's not a sticker shock because we do have a ton of repeat guests.

[01:52:44] Jen Ballenger: So if that's their goal, a discount is an incentive. It takes a little sting out of it. And I know, Deneen, you say no discounts, but there are a lot of camper clubs, Good Sam and here in the US anyway, that people get involved in for the value of it. And it's 10%. We build our price around that because a lot of people have it. And they think... I'm guilty of it when I shop too. Like if I get a little 10% discount, it makes me feel a little bit better about the money that I spend. And maybe the increase in the rate year over year too.

[01:53:41] Deneen Allen: Yeah. And I think you can frame those discounts in fun ways that... and you're always moving off that floor rate. You're never going below that floor that you've set as "this is our base price." So 100%, there's so many promotions that we can do, so many fun ways of offering additional value. Sometimes it's giving something that doesn't cost you a lot to give to them instead of discounting the rate, right? So it might be something they get on arrival. It might be something you do that is a very low incremental cost to you, but you know, it's third night for a discount, right? Or something like this. Especially in glamping where you're really mimicking the overhead of a room night in a hotel where you've got housekeeping and things like that, right? Additional.

[01:55:22] Brian Searl: I want to spend the last couple minutes of the show—we have 13 minutes left. I'm gonna try something new virtually. We've only done it in show or in person at the OHI conference and then we did it at KOA. Where I want each of you guys to ask a question to one other guest. But one other guest, but you can only ask one person one time. So what I mean by that is like, Jen, if you ask Phil a question, no one else can ask Phil a question. And then we'll just do process of elimination and we'll see if we can get some good answers out of people. Anything you want to ask anybody. We'll start with our special guests. We'll do Jen first. Pick anybody you want.

[01:57:12] Scott Bahr: It does vary. And there is a very large market for folks who would like to stay at the mom-and-pop types of parks with maybe not all the bells and whistles that you get at other locations. There's a movement right now for a little bit more disconnection. People want authenticity in their experiences. They maybe, like where you're at near Missoula, the whole idea of immersion in the culture there in Missoula, in the town, the food, the experiences, the surrounding lands that you're by, that's what people are seeking.

[01:58:11] Scott Bahr: So what we've been seeing is that there is a movement toward... I sometimes joke and I call it the Luddite movement. People who want to be a little bit more disconnected, a little bit more...

[01:58:26] Scott Bahr: I know. I like using Luddite though around Brian. But no, I know exactly what you're saying. It's like, yeah, and we saw that we saw that peek up a little bit last year among some of the younger folks that there's that desire there. They're not doing it yet, but that desire is there for something a little bit more rustic, Phil. And so it's... and I see there being in especially in some areas a movement toward that.

[01:59:16] Brian Searl: Well, Scott, you're next. You get to ask somebody now. We're going in...

[01:59:51] Miguel Huerta: Can you define rustic just so we are aligned?

[02:00:00] Miguel Huerta: Got it. Okay. Well, actually, the Mexican market I think that it's priming right now the other side of the spectrum, you know. Not rustic, but more luxurious. At the end, people want to get more from the peso that they are paying for their experience.

[02:00:58] Miguel Huerta: And the ones that survive either they improve their product or... I mean basically they will improve their products. Most of the, let's call the corporate glamping operators in Mexico, I am not seeing that they are opening as many locations as they did, which basically it's three: Grupo Presidente, we have Wander Cabins, and Nantly Living, my company. Because I think that these corporate entities are being very cautious. Because as I was telling you, demand is decreasing, the product is getting more complex and more expensive. So at the end with the cost of labor, I mean you might as well build a regular hotel than a glamping site.

[02:02:35] Scott Bahr: No, no, that's great. That helps.

[02:02:42] Miguel Huerta: My turn. I'm gonna go with Simon. And I will ask him what's his vision for 2026, especially that you have a SaaS platform that allows you to see different markets very fast.

[02:03:45] Brian Searl: Your turn, Simon.

[02:04:04] Brian Searl: Sorry, I don't mean to rain on your parade, but you can't ask Miguel because somebody else already asked Miguel a question.

[02:04:06] Brian Searl: Oh, okay. All right. That's fair.

[02:04:33] Phil Ingrassia: Yeah, well there's a lot of things going on next year. And I was just talking to one of our major rental companies about some of what they call tailwinds that really should boost the US RV rental market next year. Not only do we have World Cup coming in, so a lot of international visitors coming to US, Mexico. But we also have America 250, which is the big celebration of 250 years of the United States founding. So there's going to be events all over the country and they are beefing up their rental operations as much as they can.

[02:05:58] Brian Searl: It's on you, Phil.

[02:06:38] Jen Ballenger: Um, you know, I guess I would have to say setting them up with some tools for advance planning. I think a lot of the bigger problems is people roll into town and there's no sites to be had because they haven't planned ahead. And those newbies maybe just don't know that they need to get on there and pre-book.

[02:07:36] Brian Searl: All right. Deneen is the last one. But Deneen, we've ran out of people for you to ask, so you can ask anybody then. You get a free-for-all.

[02:07:57] Phil Ingrassia: I do not have Canadian stats, and unfortunately, Eleonore Hamm, who's RVDA of Canada, isn't with us, but I can talk generally about resale.

[02:08:25] Phil Ingrassia: Well, there's an old saw that there's two used RVs sold for every new one that's sold every year. And that basically, amazingly, kind of holds up through almost every type of economic environment we're in. Dealers will sell about, depending on the dealership, maybe 30 to 40% of their volume could be used. But that varies quite a bit.

[02:09:12] Phil Ingrassia: RV values on used have been pretty much steady. I do think recently the values may have ticked up a bit because of the affordability issue. People are looking for a bargain and used are cheaper. But now with interest rates coming down, you know, when people are making those comparisons, should I buy new or should I buy used? And there's not that much difference in your monthly payment to that payment buyer between new and used. It's an easy decision to make to go new for a lot of folks.

[02:09:55] Brian Searl: All right. Well we are a couple minutes over here. I want to just wrap up the show. We'll just go one by one real quick. Jen, any final thoughts that you have and then just tell us where they can find more information about Jim & Mary's RV Park.

[02:10:18] Brian Searl: Love it. Thank you so much for being here, Jen. Simon?

[02:10:37] Brian Searl: Appreciate you being here, Simon. Miguel?

[02:10:51] Brian Searl: Yeah, you don't have the glasses, but you have the stocking behind you. We got that, right?

[02:11:03] Brian Searl: I'm coming over after this. How long is the flight?

[02:11:39] Miguel Huerta: It's crazy the amount of people that go to the World Cup. Sadly, this year, the main countries that export people to this event are the host. Mexico, in Qatar sent a little bit over 50,000 Mexicans to Qatar. The US is the country that buys the most tickets, but because of all the different nationalities that live in there. But for example, we have countries such as Bolivia that might come back to a World Cup.

[02:12:27] Brian Searl: Awesome. Thanks for being here, Miguel. And don't forget to reach out to me. We gotta set up the Mexico thing because I will forget. I'm old. You're young. So I'm putting it on you.

[02:12:39] Deneen Allen: Well, this has been wonderful. What a great format. Thanks for the invitation, Brian. And firecircle... thefirecircle.ca. You have to put "the" in front of Firecircle or you get some really weird websites. So thefirecircle.ca. We also do market and feasibility studies, we do physical design, we do operational mentorship, all kinds of things. Yeah, and we're just trying to grow the Canadian market up here. So thanks for inviting me.

[02:13:09] Phil Ingrassia: Well, it's just great. I just think this is a great forum because I'm always an "and" person. You can RV, you can camp, you can glamp. You can do all of these things. I think it's great to get everybody together to talk about these things.

[02:13:27] Phil Ingrassia: Rvda.org.

[02:13:33] Scott Bahr: Yeah, we got a lot of new stuff coming out this coming year. So we're pretty excited about it. Just, I'd love to spend the next two hours telling you all about it in all the detail, but I won't. But I'll talk about a little bit. Yeah, I think we should do an episode to some of what I'm talking about. I've spent some time in development this year, at the end of the year here, this fall. And I'm pretty excited about some of the stuff we're working on. Working on some really cool stuff with Brian as well. And so stay tuned.

[02:14:26] Scott Bahr: One of the things I just want to say one last thing about one of the things we're working on this year, and if anyone wants to get involved at any level, please let me know, and that is I'm working on a research initiative on Gen Z. How do we attract more Gen Z folks in? I have started the process, but I'd love more minds put into it, and connections to young people. I want to mobilize them. So there, there's my pitch. Sorry I took so long.

[02:14:55] Brian Searl: Appreciate you guys joining us for another episode of MC Fireside Chats. It was a great conversation. It's the last one of the year, so this group together will see you in early 2026 for our first episode. I don't even know... do we have a first episode? It might be a holiday, so it might be two months. I don't know. We'll find out.

[02:15:27] Multiple Speakers: Bye-bye. Thank you.