The September 19th, 2026 episode of MC Fireside Chats, hosted by Brian Searl, brought together a diverse group of outdoor hospitality professionals to discuss the complex and evolving landscape of commercial insurance. Broadcasting while standing outside in the chilly weather of British Columbia, Searl introduced a panel that included park operators, software executives, and industry consultants. The conversation featured Robert Preston of Unhitched RV, Casey Cochran of Campspot, John McMahon of Camp Door County, and Jeff Hoffman of Camp Strategy. To provide specialized insights into the insurance market, Peter Lovering and James Grant from Signature Risk Partners Inc. also joined the broadcast, turning the focus heavily toward risk management, rising premiums, and the legal challenges facing campground owners today.

The discussion opened with an assessment of recent insurance premium trends, with Robert Preston sharing his firsthand experience managing a large portfolio of properties. Preston noted that while parks in hurricane-affected areas like the Gulf Coast experienced crushing premium increases in recent years, the rates for many of his properties actually decreased by ten to fifteen percent in 2025 and held steady into 2026. However, he expressed concern over the growing difficulty of finding willing carriers and the increasing presence of tricky exclusions hidden deep within policy documents. Jeff Hoffman theorized that these temporary rate reprieves might be linked to the strong investment returns insurance companies have enjoyed on their massive cash holdings, allowing them to offer slight discounts despite operational risks.

James Grant expanded on this financial dynamic, explaining that the insurance market is currently experiencing a soft phase fueled by a post-COVID hangover and a flood of excess capital. Grant noted that during the pandemic, insurers panicked and raised rates or exited unfamiliar markets entirely, but as travel normalized, the perceived risk diminished. Simultaneously, investors seeking alternatives to traditional tech stocks have poured money into the insurance sector, creating new capacity. However, Grant warned campground operators to be cautious of massive discounts offered by new, inexperienced market entrants, as these generalist insurers often fail to price risk accurately and are prone to abandoning the market entirely the moment a significant claim is filed.

The severe impact of liability concerns on park development and the guest experience was a major point of frustration for John McMahon. As the operations director for a relatively new, high-end glamping resort in Door County, McMahon shared that exorbitant insurance quotes forced his team to completely abandon plans to install a swimming pool. Furthermore, the prohibitive liability costs associated with off-property activities forced them to scrap plans for kayak and stand-up paddleboard rentals. McMahon lamented that even minor amenities, such as traditional Swedish saunas, caused their insurance rates to skyrocket, making it incredibly difficult to remain competitive while offering the basic recreational experiences that campers expect.

Addressing McMahon’s frustrations, James Grant pointed the finger squarely at the aggressive tactics of personal injury lawyers and a societal shift where people no longer accept bad luck as a reality. Grant explained that the personal injury legal framework, originally designed to protect exploited industrial workers without requiring a retainer fee, has morphed into a system that encourages frivolous lawsuits over minor incidents like tripping on a volleyball court. Because it can cost an insurance company up to one hundred thousand dollars to defend a slip-and-fall claim in court, insurers typically opt to settle for a fraction of that cost to make the problem go away, a cycle that ultimately drives up premiums for every operator in the industry. Robert Preston agreed, noting that the only long-term solution is state-level legislative reform, citing Florida’s laws that inherently protect equestrian centers from lawsuits by legally recognizing the unavoidable dangers of horseback riding.

To combat this litigious environment, the panel heavily emphasized the absolute necessity of rigorous risk management, starting with comprehensive liability waivers. James Grant stated that the first question a personal injury lawyer asks a potential client is whether they signed a waiver, as the presence of one significantly deters attorneys from taking a case on contingency. Robert Preston pointed out that modern property management systems seamlessly integrate waivers into the digital booking process. However, Peter Lovering quickly identified a dangerous loophole in this system, noting that while the primary person booking the site signs the digital waiver, their numerous visiting friends and extended family members do not. Lovering strongly advised parks to implement front desk or gate-level QR code scanning to ensure every single visitor signs a waiver before stepping onto the property.

Beyond waivers, Jeff Hoffman highlighted the importance of physical risk assessments and specialized policy audits. Hoffman shared that his consulting firm physically walks properties to identify unconsidered liabilities, such as missing electrical box covers or incorrect pool depth markers, before ever applying for insurance. Furthermore, he revealed that his team plans to bring on a retired insurance professional strictly to audit policies to ensure that operators are comparing identical coverages rather than just shopping for the lowest price. James Grant echoed this advice, warning owners against using generalist brokers who attempt to force campground risks into standard commercial policies using inadequate bolt-on endorsements, which often fail to cover vital infrastructure like buried hydro lines during a disaster.

The process of evaluating risk during property acquisitions provided another layer of insight, with Robert Preston detailing his firm's strict due diligence procedures. Preston explained that his team meticulously reviews five years of loss runs before purchasing a park, and they frequently quarantine newly acquired, high-risk properties onto separate insurance policies for the first few years to protect the premiums of their master portfolio. He shared a harrowing example of a park in the Southeast that they ultimately refused to purchase because it relied on a private well system that had suffered two severe E. coli outbreaks. The recurring nature of this massive health hazard had driven the park's insurance premiums up to an astonishing six to seven hundred thousand dollars, rendering the property completely uninvestable.

The conversation also explored the intersection of technology, social media, and underwriting, initiated by Brian Searl asking if artificial intelligence could help audit park photos for missing safety equipment, such as life rings near a pool. James Grant and Peter Lovering enthusiastically supported this concept, warning operators that underwriters routinely scour a park’s social media pages and website before issuing a policy. Lovering shared anecdotes of parks getting in trouble for posting photos of kids jumping into ponds without required life jackets or staff driving golf carts while drinking. Grant added a specific example of a pristine applicant in Quebec that was flatly denied coverage simply because they posted a photo of a guest’s helicopter landed on a campsite on Canada Day, completely spooking the underwriters who assumed the park was running a high-risk aviation operation.

As the episode progressed, the panelists touched on the impact of inflation and innovative ways to handle weather-related risks. Before exiting the broadcast, Casey Cochran highlighted Campspot’s successful partnership with Sensible to offer weather guarantees directly to campers. Cochran explained that this feature allows guests to purchase a small, affordable policy that refunds their trip if it rains a certain amount, which has effectively reduced cancellation rates across the board. By offloading the unpredictable risk of bad weather to a third-party metric-based system, parks can protect their revenue and avoid frustrating refund disputes with guests who are disappointed by a rainy weekend.

In the final moments of the show, the focus returned to the economic realities driving future premium costs and budgeting strategies. Brian Searl asked if inflation was a guaranteed catalyst for rate hikes, which James Grant confirmed, explaining that the cost of raw materials and labor to replace a damaged building has multiplied in recent years, turning what used to be a twenty-thousand-dollar claim into a fifty-thousand-dollar expense. John McMahon then asked if there was a standard percentage of gross revenue that operators should expect to allocate toward insurance. Grant concluded that the wildly diverse nature of park amenities makes a universal benchmark impossible, reinforcing his final advice that operators must continuously shop the market, utilize specialized brokers, and prioritize relentless risk management.

Welcome everybody to another episode of MC Fireside Chats.

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My name's Brian Searl with Insider

Perks and Modern Campground.

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I'm doing the show standing up

today for a little bit, till my feet

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hurt anyway, 'cause it's a little

chilly out here in BC, so I gotta

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walk around with my sweatshirt.

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It's not super cold.

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It's about 19, 20 degrees out here.

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So excited to be here with you guys again

for another episode of MC Fireside Chats.

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We got a recurring guest here Casey

Cochran, Robert Preston Jeff Hoffman,

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and then we got some insurance experts,

John McMahon, one of our newest

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recurring guests here that's gonna

be on the show once a month with us.

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So let's let everybody go around the

room and briefly introduce themselves,

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and then we'll kinda kick it off here.

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Robert, you wanna start?

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Robert Preston: Good afternoon.

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Thank you.

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Rob Preston, CEO of Unhitched and Climb

Capital based out of Pensacola, Florida.

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We own and operate RV parks

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Brian Searl: Feels like you're

underselling yourself, Robert, but okay.

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Robert Preston: That's

all I got today, man.

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Brian Searl: All right.

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Casey?

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Casey Cochran: Yeah.

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Casey Cochran, our VP of partnerships

and business development at Campspot.

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We're a campground specific PMS

and a marketplace for campgrounds.

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Brian Searl: Thanks for being here, Casey.

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Ro- John?

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John McMahon: Yeah, John

McMahon vice president of

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operations for Camp Door County.

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We're a high-end glamping

type resort focused on nature.

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Brian Searl: Welcome back,

John, glad to have you here.

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Jeff Hoffman.

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Jeff Hoffman: Jeff Hoffman

from Camp Strategy.

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We're located in Sandusky, Ohio, and

we pretty much have years of experience

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in the campground business and would

love to work with all campgrounds.

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Brian Searl: And you're

rocking social media too, Jeff.

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You got some good content

you're putting out there.

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Jeff Hoffman: I'm trying, if I don't

move forward, I just get old, and

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you keep reminding me how old I am.

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Brian Searl: I don't know how you…

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I still, I get old whether I move forward

or not, so I don't know how you figured

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that out, but and to our insurance

guys, who would like to go first?

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Peter Lovering: I'll go first.

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I my name's Peter Lovering.

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I'm head of business development

for Signa- Signature Park, and we

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specialize specifically in customized

insurance for RV parks, campgrounds,

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glamping resorts, and lodges.

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James Grant: And my name is James Grant.

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I'm the president and CEO

of Signature Risk Partners.

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We are based in Toronto,

Ontario and a specialist in

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the commercial insurance space.

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We insure golf courses craft breweries,

wineries, city social athletic

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clubs, and of course RV parks and

campgrounds right across Canada.

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And I have the pleasure of working

with Pete Lovering every day.

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Brian Searl: Awesome.

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Welcome, guys.

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Appreciate you all being here.

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So we were having a good discussion, I

think backstage before the show started

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about talking about, a little about

the insurance market, and I think where

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I wanna start here is maybe from the

perspective of Robert or Jeff or even

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Casey, who talks to a lot of people, or

John for his glamping resort, whoever

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wants to start, like what is your view

of, as an owner/operator or as someone

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who's talking to these properties, the

current state of the insurance market?

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Is it hurting you?

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Is it worse than it was a few years ago?

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Is it better?

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Is it different?

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What's changed?

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The perspective of that before we

get into the tangible behind it.

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So is there anybody who

wants to volunteer to start?

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Robert Preston: Sure, I'll jump in there.

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So certainly we still have

some multi-family assets

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as well that we looked at.

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And we, in the Gulf Coast, Florida,

a lot of the hurricane-affected

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states, we got crushed, from an

insurance premium perspective.

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'23, '24, and you see a lot of

the, the global, more of the global

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commercial real estate issues that

are happening right now, insurance

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is a big driver of the credit crunch

on a much larger level than RV parks.

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So certainly we saw the same

type of rates that came in there.

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And then last year, frankly, '25

was, It felt it felt good because

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the rates came down a decent amount.

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… 10, 15% generally across the board

from what we saw in the portfolio.

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And '26 held with even for

most of our parks actually, a

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slight discount from '25 to '26.

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And now of course we're in the

process of looking at renewals

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and stuff across the board.

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So certainly it's, we're, my opinion

is holding our breath to see when

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the rates will start going up again,

the premiums will start going up

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again, which we're hoping it doesn't.

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It's becoming more challenging to

find carriers from our perspective

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that are willing to be in this space.

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So that in itself, I think

is causing some pricing.

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And the other part is, when the

policies come with a lot more

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exclusions that are a lot more, I

hate to say the word tricky, right?

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But essentially you're paying more and

there's a lot less coverage that's being

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offered unless you're really thorough

in digging into those, those policies.

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Brian Searl: Do we have a sense

of why the insurance rates dropped

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so much over the last two years?

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Because I wouldn't have thought that.

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That kind of surprised

me when you said that.

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Jeff Hoffman: My my theory is

insurance companies make some of

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their revenue off of our rates and

insuring us, but a good majority of

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their income comes from holding lots

of cash and investing that cash.

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They've done pretty well over the last

couple of years, and that has afforded

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them to maybe discount rates a little bit.

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Brian Searl: Because of the market,

you're talking about their investments?

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Jeff Hoffman: Yes.

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Brian Searl: Okay.

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Jeff Hoffman: Yep.

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But what makes me worried is-

what's coming in the markets could

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affect our longer term insurance

rates going forward a couple years.

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So we may have to-

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Brian Searl: What's coming, Jeff?

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I can trade with one hand

while I'm in the show.

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James Grant: Can I jump in here?

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I think-

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Brian Searl: Yeah, please

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… James Grant: you make a great

point, Jeff, you're right.

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But at the end of the day

insurers are always working

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towards, an underwriting profit.

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They don't look for a lot, but you're

right, there's a lot of volume there.

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And so excess premium while we're

waiting for a claim, waiting for that

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phone call to find out that a park

got blown away or there was a fire

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or a theft they invest those assets.

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Yeah.

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And the markets have been very strong.

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That's helped.

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I think what's happened recently though

is more of is the hangover from COVID.

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Recall a couple of years

ago everybody panicked.

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We didn't know what COVID

was gonna look like.

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We didn't know what it meant to the

travel and hospitality industry.

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We didn't know if people were ever

gonna leave their homes again.

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And so a lot of insurers raised

rates or they just simply exited

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places where they didn't f- feel

like they had a particular expertise.

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If your if your bread and butter was

writing home and auto policies, you

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were focused on that during COVID

and maybe pulling away from dabbling

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in a campground or dabbling in an

RV park policy or a golf course.

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And so as a result, rates went up

for a, a number of different factors

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as I just mentioned through COVID.

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And then as we came out of COVID and

realized that hey that , that really

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was just a giant psyop and we're

back to normal again there's room in

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there for rates to come back down.

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So there's, part of that has been

that repricing as that risk has

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been eliminated from the exposure.

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The other part I think in w- in, in this

sort of lower rate environment that we're

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in today, they call it a soft market, has

to do with just a flood of excess capital.

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People are looking for alternatives to

just buying one of the big six stocks,

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they, there's only so much Amazon or

OpenAI or whatever that you can own,

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and so as they look to diversify,

insurance has been an interesting

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place for a lot of people who typically

wouldn't invest in that space.

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So we've seen a lot of new capacity

come into the marketplace which I

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think is a little bit dangerous.

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I think that's really a, it's a red flag

for all of you guys because it's easy

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to get lured in by a discounted offer

on your insurance renewal- … only to

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find out a year from now that the people

that, put the money up just have decided

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they don't like that space and they're

leaving and you gotta go somewhere else.

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I think th- there are a lot

of topics to touch on here.

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But largely, I think, the market

is finding a, sort of a new

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floor, a new balance in here.

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Fortunately, there haven't been any cat

losses in North America over the last 16

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months or so, maybe even longer than that.

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So that's gonna work in

everybody's favor as well.

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Brian Searl: John, any

perspective from your side?

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John McMahon: Yeah.

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Being a newer campground, one of

the issues that we faced when we

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were building was the, the insurance

cost and how is that gonna affect

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our ability to be competitive and-

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… What amenities we could offer.

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And one of the biggest examples is

something as simple as a swimming pool.

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What it would take just to have liability

on that pool made it nonsensical.

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We just immediately said, "No

we can't do that," because of

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the risk and the high cost.

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And for us to remain competitive,

even though we are a higher end, we

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still have to remain competitive,

and with the initial cost being so

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high, we really worried about what

the future costs were gonna be,

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and so we decided that we wouldn't

touch the swimming pool side of it.

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James Grant: Yeah.

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John McMahon: Even minor things.

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We have Swedish saunas, and that's

really jacked our rates up, and it's

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just seems like the insurance industry

is getting more sensitive to these kind

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of amenities that, have a very minor

influence on people's health and safety.

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James Grant: Again, can

I jump in here again?

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Y- you raise another excellent point, and

and it points back not to the insurance

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industry, but to personal injury lawyers

and where these lawsuits are going.

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You cannot drive by a bus

shelter or a billboard today

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without seeing an advertisement

for a personal injury lawyer.

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And basically the, what they're

telling the world is that there's

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no such thing as bad luck anymore.

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If you get hurt, it's someone else's

fault, and they're gonna pay for it.

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And we've seen massive settlements.

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I could take you through dozens that Pete

and I have seen just in our portfolio of

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parks across Canada where a, a seasonal

guest jumps in the pool, they land in

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the middle of the pool and the shallow

end's marked and the deep end's marked,

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but there's no marking at the middle of

the pool, and therefore it's the park

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operator's fault that this person hurt

their leg when they jumped into the,

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it was only five feet deep and it, and

there wasn't a five-foot sign there.

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Whatever.

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And so we're seeing a massive increase in

those slip and fall claims, and of course,

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those have to be absorbed by everybody.

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And so there's two ways to do it.

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One, you can raise rates with the

anticipation that there's a claim coming

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or you can just exclude that activity.

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And a lot of the insurers have fallen

on the latter side and decided we don't

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really understand what a steam sauna is.

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It sounds dangerous.

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It's probably hot in there.

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What if there's someone gets, a

kid gets locked inside, right?

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What's that gonna look like?

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Is that a $5 million lawsuit?

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Is it $10 million?

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And so the easiest, the path of

least resistance for insurers is

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just to exclude the activities

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John McMahon: Yeah, that's

exactly what we've seen

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Casey Cochran: Is there, I guess

my, my question I guess maybe

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probably to, to James in this is-

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… At scale and understanding the campground

space, I feel like we've been, we've

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had a thing on the software side where

there's so many people from either

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storage or the hotel space kind of coming

into the campground space and for good

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reason, and for all the right reasons,

and we've always explained some of the

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main differences between a campground

and a hotel, and a lot of it's just

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just industry understanding and whatnot.

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It seems like from an insurance

side of things, understanding

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the industry and understanding

the risk is the most important-

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James Grant: Paramount

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… Casey Cochran: at scale, right?

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And but then there's also,

is that a double-edged sword?

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Because the more you understand some

of that risk, you might understand

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the, the, the industry better than

anybody, but that might make your

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rates more because you do understand.

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Or is, is there a lack of

understanding that is, hindering

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because y- does that make sense?

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What, what-

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James Grant: Yeah, it, it-

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Casey Cochran: What side-

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James Grant: That's exactly

what we're going through right

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now in this soft market, right?

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There are a bunch of new entrants

who are like, "How do we grow

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our insurance business overall?

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Oh, campgrounds, those, they're

growing across the country.

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Maybe we should start insuring them."

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And of course, they're

going into them blind.

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They don't really know how to rate

them, and they may be taking on risk

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that they're not pricing properly.

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And so yeah, you get a

good deal on your renewal.

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But then when one of your guests trips

playing volleyball out on a grass field

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and the claim comes in and the, the

claim is based on the fact that there

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was a divot in the grass that they

weren't aware of, or that you didn't

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mark off, and there's a, a $250,000

claim, that insurer is gonna walk away.

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We've seen enough of them and we

work with, hundreds of them across

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the country, and so I think we

have a fairly good understanding of

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where the risk needs to be priced.

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From an owner's perspective, if a

broker shows up with a quote from a

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new insurance company that you've never

heard of, but it's 15% less than you're

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currently paying, you're probably gonna

take that 15% discount at least for the

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year and hope everything goes right.

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And that's something that the industry,

all industries are always up against.

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But you're right it's, you wanna make

sure that you're working with a company

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who has experience in the space so

that hopefully those kind of wild price

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swings can be smoothed out a little

bit and you see a 2 or 3% increase

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assuming you haven't got got any claims.

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Jeff Hoffman: Hmm

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Brian Searl: Is there

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James Grant: I think the, the other part,

I think, Brian, sorry to interrupt you is,

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Brian Searl: no go ahead

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… James Grant: is the use of waivers

and the risk management piece, right?

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At the end of the day nobody's gonna be

protected if they were negligent, right?

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If the lights are burned out by the

staircase, if the railing fall, has

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fallen off if there isn't a sign that

there's no lifeguard by the pool and

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something happens, then you're gonna

get hit with a claim, with a loss.

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But if you're keeping up with all of

those things in the park, and particularly

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there's a very powerful tool called

a waiver, and I think every owner and

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operator should be using waivers making

sure that every single person that steps

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on the property has signed a waiver

because there are inherent risks that come

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along with staying at an RV park, right?

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Even if it is just a friendly volleyball

game out on the, on a piece of grass in

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between sites or it's a swimming pool,

or it's a canoe or a paddle boat or

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whatever, I think it's a really important

process for all of the guests to go

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through, to read through that waiver,

to be reminded that they are taking some

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risks by camping in the out- outdoors.

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And that has worked to really

protect a lot of owners against

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some of these frivolous claims

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Robert Preston: That's a great point

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Brian Searl: So kind of the, the

acknowledgement that there's risk in what

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they're doing around the campground helps.

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James Grant: That's exactly right.

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And a reminder that we are, I am bringing

my kids out into the wild, and I do

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need to be extra careful, and I do

need to keep my wits about me out here.

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And things can go wrong sometimes.

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And the first question, I'll tell

you, the first question that a

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personal injury lawyer asks anytime

the phone rings, the very first

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question is, "Did you sign a waiver?"

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And if the answer is yes, they're

gonna think twice about even taking

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the case on because they've gotta be

out of pocket for all the expenses

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until there's a, until there's a

settlement, if there is a settlement.

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And so they'll go with someone who didn't

have a waiver versus someone who did.

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Brian Searl: So the way out of

this long-term- … is for like

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us all to have humanoid robots

that stop the guests at the door.

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Say "Please confirm

verbally for me on video-

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James Grant: Yeah

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… Brian Searl: you understand

there could be a divot in the

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volleyball court before you-"

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James Grant: That, that's it.

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Unfortunately we've gotten to that point

in society now where, as I said, there

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is no such thing as bad luck anymore.

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If I fall down, someone

else is gonna pay for it

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Robert Preston: Yeah.

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But Brian, in es- in essence that's where

you know this and Casey knows this, right?

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You build a lot of that

into the reservation itself.

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There's a lot of automation that already

exists that helps us preempt this

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by it's in your booking essentially.

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That is your waiver.

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James Grant: Yeah.

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Robert Preston: So-

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Peter Lovering: We hear that

one all the time too from owners

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is that, "Oh no, my seasonals.

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We, it's in our wa- it's

in our booking system."

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But it's all the, it's all the son-in-laws

and daughter-in-laws and their three,

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and the three grandchildren that are

coming on site for the visitor's day.

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Those are the ones you really have to

worry about as well 'cause yeah, the

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booking person, but they bring five

guests on every week for the whole summer.

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Yeah.

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And guess what?

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They've brought probably 30, 40 people on

the property with no waiver whatsoever.

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So having something at the front

desk that visitors, or at the gate

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that visitors can QR code scan as

a waiver is a very useful tool.

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James Grant: I think the other-

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Brian Searl: There was

something we used to use…

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sorry, just one second.

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James Grant: Yeah.

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Brian Searl: There's something

we used to use a long time ago

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we used to recommend to people.

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We didn't really use it at our

company, but called Smart Waiver.

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James Grant: Yeah.

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Brian Searl: It was electronic and you

could, sign it as the guest but then also

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say, "I'm adding a dependent and three

people," and enter their age and then

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they, the parent would sign for that.

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And so yeah, there's a place for that.

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James Grant: Yeah, absolutely.

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I think the other problem or the other

challenge that a lot of owners have these

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days is that they feel like their regular

seasonal renters are their family, right?

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That we all know each other, and Joe

on site number 22, he'd never sue me.

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He's a little crazy,

but he'd never sue me.

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And unfortunately in this environment,

Joe probably will, and it's

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heartbreaking to the owner and

the operator because they take it

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personally, as they probably should.

346

But the reality of the environment

again, is that you gotta get a

347

waiver signed by absolutely everybody

348

Brian Searl: So are there other ways

that an owner can, like unorthodox ways-

349

James Grant: Yeah

350

Brian Searl: besides like adding

the jumping pillow, right?

351

Are there other ways that owners

and operators outside of waivers can

352

look to lower their insurance costs?

353

Like twofold, like one, that, that

question, and then two, on the back of it-

354

James Grant: Yeah

355

… Brian Searl: is there data that

people in the industry could collect

356

for insurance companies like you?

357

Yeah.

358

Like maybe on a scale of KC

with Campspot or something.

359

I'm not saying Campspot

wants to go get KC.

360

James Grant: Yeah.

361

Brian Searl: I'm just saying like on

the level of that many parks, that

362

would help you understand and price

risk better to help lower premiums.

363

James Grant: Yeah.

364

The, the pro- there's an old saying in

the industry that a risk is only properly

365

priced until there's a loss, right?

366

So if I charge you five grand for the

year and you don't make a claim, then

367

maybe I overcharged you by $4,999.

368

But if I charged you five grand for

the year and someone fell down or

369

something was stolen or something

burned down, heaven forbid, and

370

there's a 30 or $40,000 loss, then all

of a sudden I gotta adjust my rate.

371

And so the, the number one thing of

course any owner or operator can do is

372

really be focused on that risk management

piece, which includes more than just

373

a waiver, which includes probably

getting outside eyes on the park, having

374

a health and safety specialist come

through once every three or five years.

375

These, those are the people…

376

You gotta be outside the box

to see what's in it, right?

377

You drive into your park

the same way every day.

378

You park in the same spot.

379

Your office is in the same location.

380

You might walk around a little bit,

but until you bring in an outside

381

health and safety specialist to do

a, an informal kinda audit for you,

382

you may not realize that the fire

extinguisher behind building number

383

four has been expired for two years, or

that a light's burned out on a pathway

384

that you never walk down, et cetera.

385

So I think there are, a bunch of things

that you need to be vigilint- vigilant

386

on in terms of day-to-day operations.

387

And then most importantly,

it's your track record.

388

Every insurer on the planet will offer you

a discount the longer you go claims free.

389

So the longer you can protect

yourself and protect everybody

390

else, the bigger that decrease is

as you go through your renewals.

391

Brian Searl: Is there a

place for technology here?

392

And here's why I ask.

393

I'll give you an example, right?

394

We're, we're building we're big into

data research at Insider Perks, but

395

one of the products we're building

right now is something we call, we're

396

gonna call Photo Intelligence, that

looks at all the campground photos on

397

their website, social media reviews,

user-generated photos from guests,

398

analyzes it, gives a ton of stuff back.

399

But one of the things that we noticed

it was doing unprompted when we were

400

building this is it was saying like,

"Hey, there's a picture of your pool.

401

We notice that you don't have a life

raft," or whatever that thing is, right?

402

James Grant: Yes.

403

Brian Searl: Whatever you call it.

404

James Grant: Yeah, a life ring.

405

That ring.

406

Sure.

407

Brian Searl: Yeah.

408

Is there a place for that to, like-

409

James Grant: Absolutely

410

… Brian Searl: have AI do more audits

that independently verify things

411

that would help you lower premiums?

412

James Grant: I think it

works twofold, right?

413

It works in advance of your renewal as

part of the submission to your insurance

414

company to show that everything's there,

and it probably works to protect you if

415

you've got that kind of video evidence

in the event that something does go wrong

416

and you can actually prove that, here's

a photo with a date stamp and the time

417

showing that there was a ring or there was

a sign there, or there, the light was on.

418

It's, it…

419

you can't argue with video.

420

It's absolutely the best protection.

421

Brian Searl: Yet, you can't.

422

James Grant: Yeah, true.

423

Peter Lovering: It's funny you say that,

but I can't tell you how many websites

424

and social media sites I've been on

where there's a guy, Christmas in July-

425

… With a bottle of liquor-

426

James Grant: Yeah

427

Peter Lovering: driving his,

428

James Grant: And a campfire in the-

429

… Peter Lovering: driving his golf cart-

430

… James Grant: in the bucket of the…

431

… Peter Lovering: with a Santa hat on.

432

James Grant: Yeah.

433

Peter Lovering: And kids all sitting off

the back of the of the golf cart, and it's

434

on their, it's on their social media page.

435

It, it- And guess what if

guess what if there's a claim?

436

James Grant: Yeah.

437

Peter Lovering: If something goes

wrong, it's like look, you clearly,

438

so it, it works also in reverse, is-

439

James Grant: We had a large one.

440

We had a large submission from a

park in Quebec, and and on paper

441

the application looked great.

442

They were, they had been claims

free, et cetera, et cetera, and it

443

was a very thorough application.

444

And because of the size of it, we had to

send it off to our insurance partners to

445

get their participation and their okay.

446

And one of them, to our surprise, came

back really quickly and said, "No way.

447

Not going near this thing.

448

I'm out."

449

And we said what's the problem?"

450

And they said these guys are

offering helicopter rides."

451

It turned out that they had one of the

guys who was a seasonal renter was also

452

a helicopter pilot, and on Canada Day

brought his helicopter to the park.

453

I'm not sure if he gave a ride to

anybody or not, but of course the

454

park proudly posted photos of the

helicopter sitting on the site.

455

And so when the insurers were doing

their, their 30,000-foot view risk

456

assessment based on Google searches,

they just decided that this park

457

was giving helicopter rides and

said no 'cause it wasn't disclosed.

458

So yeah, it's, it's a really good point

that parks, you're constantly trying

459

to show how much fun it is and to post

photos about all the great events and

460

all the great things that happen at the

park without probably ever thinking that

461

an insurance underwriter from downtown

Toronto might start combing through your

462

website and uncover a photo like that

and decide that either they don't wanna

463

write it or that you need to pay a premium

because of all these crazy activities.

464

Peter Lovering: Even on the s- most more

simple one is the big water park, the

465

water park bouncy type features that

people have in their ponds and whatever.

466

The pictures on the website,

nobody wears a life jacket.

467

James Grant: Yeah.

468

Peter Lovering: But the, in the

stipulation of the underwriters, they've

469

said, "Oh life jackets are required."

470

James Grant: Yeah.

471

Peter Lovering: Are life jackets required?

472

Yes they're required.

473

James Grant: Yeah.

474

Peter Lovering: That's what they'll

say, but they ha- th- they c- they

475

have that on their website with,

oh, kids flying off from 15 feet

476

in the air with no life jacket.

477

So what you put out

there is what people see.

478

James Grant: Yeah.

479

Exactly.

480

Brian Searl: I wanna change subjects

just for a second slightly, because we

481

already have enough trouble, 15 years

as a marketing agency, getting people

482

to send us pictures for their website,

and you're just gonna make it even

483

more difficult for us to do that thing.

484

But I know Casey has to

go here in a few minutes.

485

So Casey, is there anything

you wanted to add maybe…

486

I know Campspot has a partnership

with Sensible, for example,

487

which isn't technically

insurance, but a similar product.

488

Is there anything that…

489

or take it in any direction you want.

490

Casey Cochran: Yeah.

491

Brian Searl: Just to give you the floor.

492

Casey Cochran: No the insurance

thing is such a, it's a wild space.

493

We did a pretty big deep dive

into insurance at one point as

494

something just to observe or to

wonder if we wanted to touch on

495

and we decided no, a resounding no.

496

But no, I think the, the, the

weather guarantee, the weather

497

insurance aspect of things-

498

James Grant: Yeah

499

Casey Cochran: We've had really

good success with it, to be honest.

500

It's helped cancellation rates go down

because people know that they have that.

501

If it does end up raining a certain

amount of time they'll get the refund.

502

The park isn't responsible for it.

503

James Grant: Yeah.

504

Casey Cochran: But again, some

people view it as, tacking on an

505

additional fee, but s- some people

view it as we're gonna book.

506

It might rain.

507

If it does, we get our money back.

508

If it doesn't, we enjoy our time."

509

So I think parks are protecting themselves

well, better now with better cancellation

510

policies and better rules to avoid the-

the un- unavoidable world of weather.

511

But as we know, the, the weather people

get it wrong a lot, and so it's better

512

to just show up and see what happens.

513

And if you have a, a $15, $20 policy

that's gonna protect your, four or five,

514

$600 weekend or whatnot or whatever

that is we've seen good success with

515

that, little weather insurance policy.

516

And again, that's all metrics.

517

I think that's, a much

easier game to tackle than-

518

James Grant: Yeah

519

Casey Cochran: than the one where you

can have, multimillion dollar claims

520

on a property where there's, it's

just hard to, it's hard to come, it's

521

hard to come back from those, right?

522

It's hard to have those

that ma- make any sense.

523

It's the same thing with here.

524

We just had a hail damage come,

came through here a couple months

525

ago and, every single house down

the, the block is just getting

526

their roof replaced, and you're-

527

and you're going…

528

and it's the same roofing company saying,

"Hey, I just need to see five dents.

529

If you c- if I can find five dents

on these shingles, you get a whole

530

new roof," and that's their pitch.

531

And you're going this is fundamentally

gonna cost everybody more money."

532

I had a, an ethical dilemma

with it 'cause I'm like I don't

533

think our roof has any issues.

534

If there are singles, if there

are shingles off of it or if it

535

actually needs it, otherwise, I

it just doesn't feel right to just

536

take a, a claim on a new roof.

537

So I think we're probably one of two

houses on the whole street that didn't

538

get a new roof, but but then you think

of how much that costs from, a, a storm

539

that went through that wasn't crazy.

540

It was, there was a little bit of

hail but, everyone's cars are fine.

541

No, no one's getting hurt.

542

There's no broken windows.

543

But I can't imagine how many, in the

hundreds of millions of dollars of

544

roofs that got replaced just because

a claim area took advantage of it.

545

So the insurance game is

it's an interesting one.

546

That's all I got s- that's

all I got to say about that.

547

Brian Searl: Yeah, and we'll

kinda get into the nitty-gritty

548

behind it, and thanks, Casey.

549

I know you need to jump off in a second.

550

Appreciate you being

here for the first half.

551

Casey Cochran: Yeah, cheers.

552

Brian Searl: I, I think it's interesting,

Jeff, like when you're working with

553

Camp Strategy, when you're consulting

on properties either to develop or

554

renovate or all the different things

that you do, what comes into your

555

mind is the first question to you, and

then but what comes into your mind as

556

you're consulting on them, advising on

them what to do, how to do it, how to

557

build, how to prepare, that kinda thing?

558

And then after you're done, Robert

when you're going in to acquire a

559

property or manage a property, what

goes through your team's mind and

560

processes as you're looking at is

this too much risk, too little risk?

561

Would I adjust this when I take over?

562

Would I not?

563

Those kinds of things.

564

So Jeff first.

565

Jeff Hoffman: Okay.

566

When we walk an existing park, we'll go

through and analyze what we think are

567

liabilities that could be issues on, one,

operations, and two, getting insurance.

568

A lot of little stupid things

that you wouldn't think

569

of are things that are gonna pop up

if they send out an actual inspector

570

to your property to walk around.

571

Whether you ha- you know, you gotta

make sure that your covers are on your

572

electric boxes, you don't have trip

hazards, your lights are all working.

573

Very simple stuff.

574

But then when you get into the pools,

you wanna make sure that everything is

575

up to code, your numbering on depths

you have all the safety equipment.

576

All of that is needed.

577

What we've actually started doing

is we're going, we're working with

578

a retired insurance person, and

we'll be bringing them on to audit

579

insurance policies and risk before

we ask for, send it out for policies.

580

We kinda wanna do a deep dive to see

where we had, may have some liabilities.

581

And then when we get the policies

back, we have this guy re- review to

582

compare apples to apples so that we

make sure all coverages are the same.

583

Because if you go just by price- … you,

I d- I don't think in the 40 years

584

I've been in business I've ever

actually read an insurance policy.

585

That's where the trust factor comes in-

586

James Grant: Yeah

587

Jeff Hoffman: on your agent.

588

But not all agents are trustworthy

589

There are some goofy little things in

campground insurance policies, like

590

if you don't have your individual

boxes listed and you have a lightning

591

strike that melts the wire, that's

not covered on all the boxes unless

592

it's spec- specified in the policy.

593

There fire damage, one of my friends

found out through the California

594

wildfires that a lot of the stuff in

the ground, his pool, a lot of things

595

were not covered for fire damage.

596

It came as a very big shock to him-

597

… Because he was thinking he was covered.

598

That shock was to the tune of 1.5

599

million that wasn't covered.

600

It … I'm not an expert in insurance.

601

Never have been, never will be.

602

I know that you have to have certain

coverages, but I'm not, as I say,

603

an expert, and I think when it comes

to looking at insurance to make

604

sure you're covered, you're, you

should at least once in a lifetime

605

have somebody review your policies.

606

As- attorneys are good, but if

you go by them, you'll never get

607

insurance- … because they'll look

at every, every issue in that policy.

608

Brian Searl: And at the bare,

at the very bare minimum-

609

Jeff Hoffman: My son-in-law

works for an insurance company,

610

so I know how he thinks.

611

Brian Searl: And at a very bare minimum,

you as a campground owner, everything's

612

getting more expensive, right?

613

But at the very least, this does not

replace a lawyer, as you're saying, right?

614

But at the very least, just upload your

insurance policy to ChatGPT and say, "How

615

is this gonna …" me or something, right?

616

Like I mean- … at the very least,

then you have a direction to take and

617

ask the lawyer, and that's all kind of-

618

Jeff Hoffman: Yeah, and-

619

Brian Searl: at the very minimum

620

… Jeff Hoffman: you have to- Also … you

would have to train ChatGPT on

621

the specifics of the campground

industry or the RV industry, travel,

622

your games, your inflatables.

623

But-

624

Brian Searl: Right, which is

why- … a lawyer ultimately, like

625

a Christine Taylor, is better, but at

least it gives you a starting point

626

where ChatGPT's like maybe you wanna

consider this type thing," right?

627

Jeff Hoffman: And that's the same thing we

look at with an insurance consultant is-

628

James Grant: Yeah

629

… Jeff Hoffman: they're gonna be doing

the same thing, only we're, our rate

630

is a lot less than your attorney.

631

James Grant: That's right.

632

Peter Lovering: That's generally the

role of your broker though, right?

633

Jeff Hoffman: It, it- So- I agree … it

should be Brokers miss stuff.

634

I've, and I've found that over the years.

635

The first one was when my wife

got pregnant, and back in the

636

day, pregnancy coverage in an

insurance policy was optional.

637

And we did not have it.

638

James Grant: Yeah.

639

Yeah.

640

I think you raise a couple

of great points there.

641

One, you probably wanna find

an insurance broker who has

642

experience with other RV parks.

643

Jeff Hoffman: Yes.

644

James Grant: Not just your neighbor,

not the local guy, not the guy that

645

rents a site from you, but someone

who's actually worked with other parks

646

before and knows what to look for.

647

The, the policy wordings

are very difficult.

648

They're 110 to 150 pages.

649

And typically, the first 75 pages talk

about all the great things they're gonna

650

cover, and then the last 75 pages take

out coverage for most of those things

651

they've advertised in the beginning.

652

And that, that also comes

with buying from a generalist.

653

Because if you go to an Intact in

Canada or an Aviva they will try and

654

tack on, they'll try and bolt on some

extensions to a general commercial

655

policy to make it fit your risk profile,

and essentially they're just smashing

656

a square peg through a round hole.

657

And a lot of those endorsements are not

gonna cover things, as you mentioned the

658

hydro lines that are buried, the, all of

those good things that cost real money

659

and are gonna be expensive to repair.

660

So I think the other lesson is that you

wanna find a policy that's been written

661

from scratch specifically for your

industry, because they will have addressed

662

all of those things very clearly in

writing and not, you don't have to look

663

for some sort of bolt-on endorsement.

664

Jeff Hoffman: To that point for

the first time in, 30, 40 years, we

665

split our insurance coverages between

different agent, not agencies, but

666

different policies to cover specific

risk instead of getting a full package-

667

James Grant: Yeah

668

… Jeff Hoffman: from one company.

669

And it saved us a ton of money because

some companies were willing to write

670

insurance on a jump pad, some weren't.

671

We took our, general liability

and that to a different company.

672

And our what is it?

673

I can't think of the name of the insurance

that's over top of everything else.

674

Our umbrella.

675

James Grant: Umbrella.

676

Umbrella.

677

Jeff Hoffman: Yeah.

678

Yeah, we farmed that out

to a different company.

679

So-

680

… We're trying to mitigate the risk across

companies, but also find the best insurer

681

for each one of those specific categories.

682

James Grant: Yeah, and that's

a s- that's a, it's a very s-

683

Jeff Hoffman: You know that.

684

James Grant: Sorry.

685

It's a very smart approach.

686

We've built a policy for RV parks and

campgrounds, but we don't know a lot

687

about the marina side of operations.

688

And so for someone who's got a lot of

boats with motors on the back, and they

689

may have water taxis, et cetera, that's

not something that we understand properly,

690

so we can't quote it properly for you.

691

And in those cases, we'll ask the broker

to go find a marine specialist, and you

692

can pull, and then you're, then you can

be sure that you've properly protected

693

both components to your park, and that's

absolutely the right way to do it.

694

Jeff Hoffman: Yeah.

695

Brian Searl: Rob-

696

Robert Preston: Yeah.

697

So as we're looking at a new

property, on the due diligence

698

side, it's pretty simple.

699

Get the loss runs for at least

the typically five years.

700

We look at those loss runs

and see what's on there.

701

We look at the P&L and see what

their interest premiums have been.

702

You can correlate the two there and

get a backstory and history of it.

703

And then for us then, there's the decision

tree matrix is based off those loss runs

704

and the property and, general assessment.

705

Do we want to add that to our

master policy or do we set up a

706

new, a new policy for this property?

707

Typically, we were leaning towards a

defaulting to a new policy for the first

708

couple years to protect the master policy

premiums and stuff that's in place.

709

Our agencies and brokers, they, as

you guys mentioned, they provide those

710

services, so they'll come out, do

a walkthrough, give us suggestions.

711

Some things are not suggestions

to fix and work through that.

712

And then almost all the providers

now have some type of online

713

training portal too that has,

training for your team and staff.

714

I think that's an important part

of this too, is like training and

715

teaching the onsite staff of things

to look for and/or just general,

716

don't stand on top of ladders, right?

717

So there's the insurance side of it

that, that comes in from the workman's

718

comp and the actual team member getting

hurt as well, where that's probably

719

more of the larger amount of the risk

in, in there 'cause they're there all

720

the time and they're doing stuff and

they wanna, make the pro-proper there.

721

So we've started to really put an emphasis

on at least getting the training available

722

and saying, "Hey here's how here's how

you trim the bushes," type of stuff.

723

So inevitably someone unfortunately

gets hurt, but at least going back to

724

being like the, the waiver, at least

you've got something to point back to

725

and say, "No, we did have training.

726

We do have a policy for that."

727

Accidents do actually happen

despite what attorneys think.

728

And so there's at least a, a case there.

729

I think I rambled a little bit on how

we look at it but initially, basically

730

we're seeing, what claims have happened

at this property, obviously assessing

731

the property itself, which risks might

be there, and then we gotta decide

732

whether we wanna quarantine this

property for the first couple years

733

to see how it goes before we roll it

into the larger risk of the portfolio

734

Brian Searl: Is there ever a situation

where you would look at a property and

735

say, "This is too risky or too much has

to change here and I want to walk away?"

736

Robert Preston: Oh, for sure.

737

Yeah, so I'll try not to give too

much information because it's not

738

hard to figure out this property.

739

Sure.

740

There's a property in the southeast

that has a private well system,

741

and unfortunately in the past, five

years, they've had some serious

742

major claims with I think it's E.

743

coli or something, right?

744

I don't think there's a death.

745

There may have been a death,

but something significant.

746

Their premiums are running like $600,000

$700,000 for one property for the premium,

747

because of the loss run there, which is

significant, and the severity of the, the

748

risk that's possible and the frequency.

749

There was two, two outbreaks of this over

a period of three or four years, and the

750

probability that it will happen again.

751

Okay.

752

And from an investment perspective,

they were effectively given the

753

property away, but there still is no…

754

It's either no insurance or

it just was not feasible from

755

an investment perspective.

756

James Grant: Nothing scares an insurance

company more than frequency, right?

757

Yeah.

758

L- losses happen and that's a f-

that's a part of life for sure.

759

But when the same thing happens again

and again, everybody runs for the hills.

760

Robert Preston: Yeah.

761

And from my perspective as an owner

people, it's always com- one of the major

762

risks is the utilities, the water and

the sewage, and typically the risk on

763

the sewage side is more of a maintenance,

upkeep costs, that's a CapEx thing.

764

But the water coming in is something

that almost probably very few

765

owners think about from a risk

mitigation if it's not on city water.

766

Because that's something

100% of your guests and staff

767

will use every day, all day.

768

And so if something were to happen there,

then you're also affecting not only

769

frequency, but you're affecting, you know-

770

What's the word?

771

Scale, scope, right?

772

Sure.

773

You're affecting a lot of people.

774

And so that's one of the things

that from an ownership perspective

775

that we are very cautious about,

anything that's not on city water.

776

Brian Searl: John, does building a

new resort or, even Jeff considering

777

renovating it, how do you…

778

are there things that you wanna

do that you can't do because of

779

insurance, is the question I wanna ask.

780

John McMahon: Yeah.

781

Just like I mentioned before

we had planned on a pool.

782

We had planned on renting kayaks and SUPs.

783

And the SUPs and the kayaks would have

to be taken off property to be used,

784

and so we don't have any control over

the usage, whether they put on their

785

life vest or they've done something

without one of our guides around them.

786

And it just eliminated the opportunity

for us to offer those offerings

787

because the risk that was involved.

788

And to me those are basics.

789

Those are basic offerings.

790

Yeah.

791

Those aren't high-end offerings.

792

They're low-end offerings, yet the

cost benefits just, they just aren't

793

there because of the liability.

794

Brian Searl: Is, to the insurance

guys, is this the way it has to work?

795

W- we've seen how this has

changed societally, right?

796

I'm not saying it's an

insurance company fault.

797

As we've talked about on this show we,

we, how claims have increased and how

798

everything is people's faults and how

society goes, and if you trip and you

799

jump in the middle of the pool, and-

800

all the stuff that probably didn't

exist, I don't know for sure, but

801

didn't exist 20, 40 years ago.

802

Feels like it's stacking on

top of owners as we keep moving

803

forward for various reasons.

804

So is this the only thing that

we have to look forward to?

805

Is there another model that works

better or differently, or is insurance

806

just gonna keep going up every single

year and there's nothing we can

807

do about it because that's the way

society is gonna allow people to make

808

frivolous claims and all that stuff?

809

Is there hope?

810

James Grant: I sure hope so.

811

I sure hope so, but I, it

doesn't seem like it these days.

812

Robert Preston: Brian,

sorry to jump in there.

813

There is some hope, right?

814

So it's legislative at some point,

so the state of Florida has put some

815

great legislation in over the last

couple years to, in general, cut back

816

on the frivolous lawsuit side of it.

817

But also, there's initiatives in place

where an equestrian center in Florida,

818

by default, is essentially, outside

of, absolute negligence, unsuable.

819

That's part of the Florida

component of an equestrian center.

820

Now, it has to be marked, and it has to

be an equestrian center, but the nature

821

of riding horses is inherently dangerous,

and so the state of Florida says, "Sorry,

822

you don't get to use that excuse anymore."

823

Yeah.

824

And so there is, there's some efforts

and we're making some progress, I

825

think, at the, some of the state

level to say camping and RVing is a

826

recreation activity," and so that is

hopeful and probably one of the better

827

solutions that I've seen out there to

help get us to where we need to be.

828

James Grant: But I think

you're right, though-

829

Brian Searl: But in the meantime,

you can just have guests you can

830

escort guests to their site on a

horse, and that solves the problem.

831

Robert Preston: Now

you're getting creative.

832

I like it.

833

James Grant: But you're right, Robert.

834

Unfortunately we're now at the point

where the government has to step in

835

and has to put some sort of guardrails

around these personal injury lawyers

836

that the, the, if we just, to take a

step back, the personal injury law piece

837

was developed to protect workers during

the Industrial Revolution, and the, the

838

thinking at the time was that, these,

these industrial tycoons were taking

839

advantage of people and making them work

for, pennies an hour and exposing them

840

to horrible fumes and chemicals and all

of these things, and these poor people-

841

Brian Searl: Which, to be

fair, they were probably doing.

842

James Grant: But thank you.

843

1,000%.

844

I, absolutely.

845

Yeah.

846

Absolutely, 1,000%.

847

And so they carved out this kinda

little niche in the law where if it's

848

a, if you're l- seeking representation

because you're, you've been taken

849

advantage of, you don't have to pay

a retainer It's the only segment of

850

the law where it looks like that.

851

If you, unfortunately, if you go

to get divorced or you wanna sue

852

your neighbor, the first thing your

lawyer's gonna ask for is a retainer,

853

and you gotta write them a big check

for 10,000 bucks, and then you get

854

going, and everybody makes statements,

and you gotta show up in court.

855

For, on the personal injury side,

you don't have to do that, which is

856

why all of those advertisements say,

"You don't pay if we don't win."

857

And so I think, if you had to, if an

accident did happen while you were at

858

an RV park and you did have to pay a

retainer first, you might think twice

859

before you actually went ahead with it.

860

And they've found that, the lawyers have

found this loophole, and they know…

861

the, the reality for us is that it

costs us between 80 and $100,000

862

to defend a slip and fall claim if

we decide we wanna challenge it.

863

The alternative, of course, is from the

lawyer, the lawyers always offer for 40

864

or $50,000, we can make this go away."

865

And so the insurers have always been

inclined, the thinking is if I'd rather

866

pay the 40 grand now, see if we can get

them down to 38, and be done with it."

867

And then the law firm keeps half

of it, and 15,000 goes to the

868

claimant, and away everybody goes.

869

And so the question now is how many of

those $40,000 checks do you wanna write?

870

Because we've really just trained,

the industry has trained the personal

871

injury lawyers that it's a free lunch.

872

And but without some sort of

change or legislation, it's

873

gonna continue like this forever.

874

These guys are onto a gravy train here

and we need someone to protect, Well-

875

the small business owners who

are truly are the victims 'cause

876

at the, the thinking always

was it's a victimless crime.

877

The big insurance company who has

billions of dollars in the bank,

878

they're the ones writing the check.

879

It's no big deal.

880

No harm, no foul.

881

But the reality is that those, those

settlements get reflected in the

882

insurance premiums, and they keep,

rates keep going up, which is why

883

we're having this conversation today.

884

So I think, without being able to

lobby the government and get them to

885

put some sort of guardrails in there

it's just gonna continue the way it is.

886

Robert Preston: Yeah, James, you're right.

887

And then, the first couple steps that

happen before that cycle, which is now

888

a negative cycle that's never going to

stop is then on the debt side if you

889

want to borrow money, then you have…

890

The bank requires you to carry insurance.

891

Of course.

892

So therefore you have to have

insurance, so therefore most, if not

893

almost all places have insurance.

894

So if I'm an attorney, I know that

they're going to settle whether

895

I'm right or wrong, so there's

zero risk of filing a claim.

896

So it's a perpetual-

897

James Grant: Yep

898

Robert Preston: opponent.

899

And then of course, lenders get more

stringent in the coverage they would

900

like to- us to carry because they want

to feel more protected, which then of

901

course increases the payout possible.

902

James Grant: Yep.

903

Robert Preston: Or the…

904

So it's this ridiculous cycle.

905

I know, I know certain wealthy individuals

who their insurance policy is to have no

906

insurance, and they're almost guaranteed

to never get a lawsuit unless there's-

907

James Grant: Right

908

Robert Preston: something catastrophic.

909

But if you don't have insurance, you

won't get sued for the most part.

910

Brian Searl: All right, so two things

I wanted to wrap up the kind of show.

911

We've got about 10 minutes left.

912

One is we started the conversation

backstage before we came on here

913

about other reasons that insurance

might go up in the future.

914

So can you guys- … just touch briefly

on that for the owners and operators?

915

Because it feels like everything

is going up for reasons-

916

James Grant: Yeah

917

… Brian Searl: that we could probably

speculate on, but might be political,

918

so we'll stay away from those.

919

But, so e- everything in the

grocery store is going up.

920

Everything from nails to

roof repair to paint to…

921

A- and so at what point, we

already covered personal injury,

922

but at what point does that

impact the cost of your insurance?

923

James Grant: Now.

924

Right now.

925

That's a, it's a great point,

Brian and and again, post-COVID,

926

inflation has been rising at

almost double-digit rates annually.

927

And so what that means is if you

have a claim, if a building gets

928

blown over and it was worth $20,000

on your property schedule, on your

929

insurance policy because you…

930

It was always valued at $20,000.

931

That's just like what it costs, and

every year I just keep the same numbers.

932

The reality is now that your…

933

the cost of the materials to

rebuild that structure and the

934

labor costs have all gone up by 2

935

or 300%.

936

So that $20,000 claim now is

probably 50 to replace that building.

937

And owners and operators need to be

doing fresh evaluations every year on the

938

limits of all of their buildings to make

sure that they do have proper coverage

939

Brian Searl: So can they can we

as an industry expect insurance

940

rates generally to go up in 2027?

941

And is the inflationary pressures a

reason why, or we don't know yet, or?

942

James Grant: Look, the, the

reality is that everything's

943

more expensive, as you said.

944

So when something goes wrong or

burns down or blows over, it costs

945

everybody a lot more money to replace

it, and so that's gonna get worked

946

into the calculation at renewal.

947

The important thing from the owner

or the operator perspective is to

948

make sure they've got the right

limits on all of their buildings

949

and all of their equipment.

950

I think, you know-

951

Brian Searl: The reason, the reason

I ask, just for clarity, is like

952

because we- Yeah … we talked

about, like Robert talked about how

953

insurance went down for a couple years.

954

James Grant: Yeah.

955

Brian Searl: But that was also

after they printed all the money in

956

2021 and we had all the inflation

that was crazy skyrocketing.

957

James Grant: Yeah.

958

Brian Searl: And it…

959

That's why I'm asking.

960

Is it always a con- consequence of

cause and effect, or can it be other?

961

James Grant: It's- it, yeah, I was gonna

s- insurers tend to be very myopic, right?

962

If there was a hailstorm in Ontario two

weeks ago, and so that will be top of

963

mind for everybody as they're quoting new

risk and renewing new policies, right?

964

They're gonna think.

965

"Oh no, there's another hailstorm coming."

966

And when we go through a long period

where there haven't been big weather

967

events, then everybody thinks, "Oh I

don't have to worry about weather again."

968

Earthquake is probably

the best example of that.

969

There hasn't been a meaningful

tremor anywhere in North America for

970

a very long time, and as a result,

earthquake rates have trended down

971

to where they're almost negligible.

972

You get full earthquake

coverage for nothing these days.

973

I can tell you, as soon as there's

a big earthquake, all of those

974

numbers are gonna go through the

roof again and they're gonna restart.

975

So you know, unfortunately, there,

there are those kinds of ebbs and

976

flows that are a reality of the

market environment that we live in.

977

The best thing, again that any owner or

operator can do to try and keep a handle

978

on it is just to be super focused on

risk management, to use waivers, to use

979

outside consultants, to make sure they're

doing everything in their power to avoid

980

something happening before it does.

981

Brian Searl: So if you have a, if

you have a property and let's say

982

you're just, pretend you're Robert and

you've acquired a new property, right?

983

Or anybody who bought a new property

or you've just been, you're paying

984

high insurance rates for a while.

985

We talked about waivers.

986

James Grant: Yeah.

987

Brian Searl: If you deploy waivers and the

best practices that we've talked about on

988

this show today, what could you reasonably

expect a percentage-wise decrease in

989

your previous year insurance if you

d- went from doing nothing to doing-

990

James Grant: Yeah

991

Brian Searl: all the things

that we've talked about?

992

James Grant: I think probably the

best thing you could hope for is that

993

your insurance rates remain stable.

994

I think that's the best

win you could hope for.

995

Brian Searl: Okay.

996

James Grant: Because the flip side is

that you didn't have a waiver, someone

997

did trip playing volleyball, and they

do sue you for a million bucks and

998

it is settled beyond your control and

then that will, that loss, as Robert

999

mentioned earlier, hangs on to your

profile for at least the next five to

00:49:55,551 --> 00:49:59,781

seven years and it's factored into all

of your insurance renewals going forward.

00:49:59,791 --> 00:49:59,987

It really-

00:49:59,987 --> 00:50:00,782

Brian Searl: Is it just you though?

00:50:00,782 --> 00:50:02,522

Because if we look at

we talked about how the-

00:50:02,522 --> 00:50:02,712

James Grant: Yeah

00:50:02,712 --> 00:50:05,542

… Brian Searl: the number of companies

that are willing to insure campgrounds-

00:50:05,542 --> 00:50:05,632

James Grant: Yeah

00:50:05,662 --> 00:50:06,652

… Brian Searl: is going down.

00:50:06,942 --> 00:50:10,952

So if the campground next, in the

state over or the next street down

00:50:10,952 --> 00:50:13,932

isn't doing what you're doing,

doesn't that also impact your rate?

00:50:14,082 --> 00:50:14,952

James Grant: I think, yeah.

00:50:14,952 --> 00:50:18,362

I think the other lesson in there, and

good for you for pushing it is that

00:50:18,362 --> 00:50:22,252

the campground owner and operator,

they have a, their broker at least

00:50:22,252 --> 00:50:26,062

is incumbent to go out to market and

what that means is that every couple

00:50:26,062 --> 00:50:28,952

of years they canvas the marketplace.

00:50:28,962 --> 00:50:30,412

Are there any new providers?

00:50:30,412 --> 00:50:32,312

Are there any new programs out there?

00:50:32,752 --> 00:50:36,812

And they submit your details around

to three or four different insurance

00:50:36,812 --> 00:50:41,302

companies to make sure that you are paying

a super competitive rate at the time.

00:50:41,692 --> 00:50:45,782

So many people get trapped in this

thinking that once they've got insurance,

00:50:45,782 --> 00:50:48,492

if they haven't made a claim they

better not get a quote from somebody

00:50:48,492 --> 00:50:51,612

else 'cause their rates might go up and

that's the wrong way to think about it,

00:50:52,242 --> 00:50:54,002

'cause the landscape is always changing.

00:50:54,002 --> 00:50:56,862

So I think that's one more thing that

they probably should add to the list,

00:50:57,392 --> 00:50:59,152

that they are out canvassing the market.

00:50:59,182 --> 00:51:01,232

Not every year but every couple for sure.

00:51:04,062 --> 00:51:04,312

Brian Searl: All right.

00:51:04,342 --> 00:51:06,662

Let's spend the last few minutes

asking questions of each other.

00:51:06,662 --> 00:51:07,942

Robert, do you have any

questions for anybody?

00:51:11,174 --> 00:51:11,504

Robert Preston: Yeah.

00:51:11,624 --> 00:51:11,974

Wow.

00:51:12,644 --> 00:51:12,954

Maybe.

00:51:13,324 --> 00:51:13,904

I'm sure I do.

00:51:15,644 --> 00:51:16,684

I always get stumped on this.

00:51:17,514 --> 00:51:22,534

The insurance industry is heavily

influenced by investments, therefore

00:51:23,764 --> 00:51:26,834

they are supply and demand, capitalists.

00:51:26,844 --> 00:51:32,604

So I guess for the insurance guys'

questions, we see-- we saw it come

00:51:32,604 --> 00:51:36,934

down for the last couple years,

which is because of the massive rates

00:51:36,934 --> 00:51:40,464

that we were paying and obviously

it would seem to me that then…

00:51:40,814 --> 00:51:46,434

I guess the question is that when we--

those premiums doubled, then providers

00:51:46,434 --> 00:51:47,734

said, "Hey, here's an opportunity.

00:51:47,734 --> 00:51:51,504

Let's cut in there," and that's why

our competition is driving us down.

00:51:51,934 --> 00:51:54,044

To some extent, competition is

driving us back down, right?

00:51:57,310 --> 00:51:58,030

I guess that's the question.

00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:01,490

So d- how much does competition play this?

00:52:01,490 --> 00:52:01,537

Peter Lovering: I, I

00:52:01,537 --> 00:52:06,300

spend, I spend most of my day talking

to owners and operators and literally I

00:52:06,300 --> 00:52:09,570

can't tell them what they should insure

or how much they can insure just by

00:52:09,790 --> 00:52:12,190

certain laws 'cause we're not the broker.

00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,400

But we talk to them all the

time about having options.

00:52:15,650 --> 00:52:19,610

And so to your point about, yeah,

the prices came down, other people

00:52:19,610 --> 00:52:21,630

come in with other options that…

00:52:21,630 --> 00:52:25,010

And then guess what happens when

you've had a broker for 40 years who

00:52:25,650 --> 00:52:29,720

who's been writing the same policy

for 40 years and rolling it over?

00:52:29,790 --> 00:52:32,530

He sits up straight and starts

sharpening his pencil a little

00:52:32,540 --> 00:52:34,060

more, and it gets- it gets your-

00:52:34,590 --> 00:52:35,060

… Gets your…

00:52:35,740 --> 00:52:38,770

Getting everybody competing

is is healthy, I do think.

00:52:38,950 --> 00:52:40,160

It doesn't mean less coverage

00:52:42,940 --> 00:52:43,990

Brian Searl: Jeff, any questions?

00:52:45,330 --> 00:52:48,700

Jeff Hoffman: And it's hard for

them to predict the future as

00:52:48,700 --> 00:52:51,150

far as where rates are going.

00:52:51,220 --> 00:52:56,880

But I would guess that if nothing else,

they're gonna start following inflation.

00:52:56,990 --> 00:53:03,320

We've knocked out what happened with

COVID, all of that, so now it's just

00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:07,060

basically you're gonna have to look

at building in the expense models

00:53:07,090 --> 00:53:12,680

for replacement cost if you have

events, and somewhat what's going

00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:18,200

on with financial markets to bring

that revenue either up or down.

00:53:18,380 --> 00:53:22,890

'Cause, if markets bank,

insurance is gonna go up, I think

00:53:25,282 --> 00:53:26,632

James Grant: It won't

help, that's for sure.

00:53:26,732 --> 00:53:27,122

Jeff Hoffman: Yeah.

00:53:30,718 --> 00:53:31,268

John McMahon: I've got a question.

00:53:33,018 --> 00:53:38,828

What is what do you look at as a healthy

percentage of revenue or expenses should

00:53:38,828 --> 00:53:41,238

go to insurance in the overall budget?

00:53:41,828 --> 00:53:45,648

So that you can determine if

you're in line or out of line

00:53:45,648 --> 00:53:48,128

or, it's just, it's a decision.

00:53:48,518 --> 00:53:50,448

It's a point you have to make decisions

00:53:53,924 --> 00:53:57,204

James Grant: That's a tough one

because the risk profile is so varied.

00:53:57,794 --> 00:54:03,744

Some parks refill propane tanks and rent

fishing boats, and others have bouncy

00:54:03,744 --> 00:54:07,934

castles and playgrounds and other, and

swim- so it's a re- it's a tough one.

00:54:08,014 --> 00:54:11,014

I think the most important thing is

that you're making sure that you're

00:54:11,034 --> 00:54:14,704

keeping everybody honest by, again,

going to market, getting quotes from

00:54:14,704 --> 00:54:18,814

two or three different providers

or programs every couple of years.

00:54:19,284 --> 00:54:23,094

And then, keeping track in where

those, those prices tend to be trending

00:54:26,206 --> 00:54:27,406

Brian Searl: All right

to the insurance guys.

00:54:27,406 --> 00:54:30,246

Do you guys have any questions for Jeff

or John before we wrap up the show?

00:54:31,256 --> 00:54:32,696

James Grant: I wanna know

where you are, Brian.

00:54:33,686 --> 00:54:34,526

Brian Searl: Right now, or-

00:54:34,666 --> 00:54:34,686

James Grant: Yeah.

00:54:36,006 --> 00:54:37,836

Brian Searl: I'm in British

Columbia on Lake Shuswap.

00:54:38,436 --> 00:54:39,596

James Grant: It looks beautiful.

00:54:40,046 --> 00:54:40,506

Brian Searl: It is.

00:54:40,576 --> 00:54:41,296

I'm definitely spoiled.

00:54:42,046 --> 00:54:42,936

Peter Lovering: No fires?

00:54:44,086 --> 00:54:44,586

Brian Searl: No.

00:54:44,646 --> 00:54:45,316

Nah, not, not-

00:54:45,376 --> 00:54:45,466

Peter Lovering: Oh, good.

00:54:46,186 --> 00:54:47,956

Brian Searl: There have been,

like quite a bit across the town-

00:54:47,956 --> 00:54:47,986

Peter Lovering: I know.

00:54:48,226 --> 00:54:48,686

We know.

00:54:49,856 --> 00:54:49,876

Yeah.

00:54:49,936 --> 00:54:50,696

Oh, we know.

00:54:51,116 --> 00:54:54,406

No I think I think it's been

great, so thank you very much and

00:54:54,406 --> 00:54:55,546

it was nice to meet everybody.

00:54:55,546 --> 00:54:56,296

Sorry I didn't get to say…

00:54:56,316 --> 00:54:59,406

I'll send a note to everybody

separately, but but I think it was

00:55:02,234 --> 00:55:05,634

We're happy to come back any time if

you wanna keep keep us on the roster.

00:55:06,734 --> 00:55:09,064

Brian Searl: All right, and where can they

learn more about your insurance offerings

00:55:09,064 --> 00:55:10,244

for tho- those who are in Canada?

00:55:11,694 --> 00:55:13,324

Peter Lovering: It would

be at signaturerisk.com.

00:55:14,564 --> 00:55:16,434

Brian Searl: And is there somebody

that you partner with in the

00:55:16,434 --> 00:55:17,714

United States that you'd recommend?

00:55:18,494 --> 00:55:20,944

James Grant: S- signaturespecialty.com.

00:55:22,484 --> 00:55:23,044

Sigspecialty.com.

00:55:23,594 --> 00:55:23,934

Peter Lovering: Okay.

00:55:25,534 --> 00:55:26,554

Brian Searl: Jeff, any final thoughts?

00:55:27,534 --> 00:55:30,234

Or, sorry, I guess I didn't ask

the insurance k- both of you.

00:55:30,324 --> 00:55:32,154

Is there any final thoughts you guys

have, and then we'll go to Jeff.

00:55:32,844 --> 00:55:36,284

James Grant: From my perspective, we

always welcome participating in these

00:55:36,284 --> 00:55:39,244

kinds of events, 'cause it's great to be

able to speak with the actual insureds

00:55:39,734 --> 00:55:44,174

and understand, what your frustrations

are and what your challenges are.

00:55:44,574 --> 00:55:47,934

And I think also to be able to explain

more about the mechanics of how the

00:55:47,934 --> 00:55:51,694

industry works and, how the underwriting

process works and all of that good stuff.

00:55:51,694 --> 00:55:53,594

So I think it's all very, very positive.

00:55:54,084 --> 00:55:55,484

So thank you for the opportunity.

00:55:57,004 --> 00:55:57,834

Brian Searl: Peter, anything to add?

00:55:58,444 --> 00:56:00,944

Peter Lovering: No I've I've

been a long-time viewer,

00:56:00,944 --> 00:56:03,344

first-time attendee, but, Caller.

00:56:03,344 --> 00:56:06,479

So I've enjoyed being part of

the celebrity, being a celebrity

00:56:06,479 --> 00:56:07,989

guest, so it's a treat for me.

00:56:08,229 --> 00:56:08,629

Thank you.

00:56:09,399 --> 00:56:10,229

Brian Searl: Thanks for being here, sir.

00:56:10,419 --> 00:56:12,919

Jeff, final thoughts, and where can

they learn more about Camp Strategy?

00:56:13,609 --> 00:56:16,419

Jeff Hoffman: You can go

to Ca- campstrategy.com.

00:56:16,429 --> 00:56:20,789

We've updated our website, and we'd

like you to take a look at us and

00:56:20,809 --> 00:56:23,439

give us comments as to how it looks.

00:56:24,909 --> 00:56:27,059

Brian Searl: Any final thoughts

on the insurance discussion here?

00:56:27,429 --> 00:56:31,709

Jeff Hoffman: I'm glad you invited the

two guys t- today, Peter and James.

00:56:31,929 --> 00:56:36,319

I think it was a very interesting

discussion, and one that may, we may

00:56:36,319 --> 00:56:37,879

wanna carry on every once in a while.

00:56:37,889 --> 00:56:43,509

Peter Lovering: It is, it, thank you, and

it is one of the biggest, most influential

00:56:43,509 --> 00:56:45,879

long-term decisions you'll make at a park.

00:56:45,879 --> 00:56:48,069

We spend a lot of time

talking about marketing.

00:56:48,069 --> 00:56:51,569

We spend a lot of time talking

about dog parks and- … eV

00:56:51,569 --> 00:56:53,319

hookups and things like that.

00:56:53,329 --> 00:56:58,039

But insurance lasts a lifetime,

so that's so I we'd be happy to

00:56:58,039 --> 00:56:59,759

join any other any other time.

00:57:00,549 --> 00:57:00,859

Brian Searl: Okay.

00:57:01,459 --> 00:57:03,419

Last but not least,

John, any final thoughts?

00:57:03,419 --> 00:57:05,563

And where can they learn more

about what you got for your-

00:57:05,563 --> 00:57:05,809

John McMahon: Yeah.

00:57:05,849 --> 00:57:07,259

Camp-door.com

00:57:07,259 --> 00:57:08,199

is our website.

00:57:08,489 --> 00:57:12,949

But I really appreciate having this

as a topic, because it's really top

00:57:12,949 --> 00:57:16,509

of mind for us right now as we grow

and look at the other amenities

00:57:16,509 --> 00:57:18,079

that we're considering adding.

00:57:18,629 --> 00:57:21,339

And it's, this has just been really

helpful to have that insight.

00:57:22,809 --> 00:57:23,089

Brian Searl: Awesome.

00:57:23,089 --> 00:57:25,419

Thank you guys for being here for

another episode of MC Fireside Chats.

00:57:25,429 --> 00:57:27,929

If you're not sick and tired of

hearing from me, I will be with the

00:57:27,929 --> 00:57:29,999

esteemed Scott Bahr in about an hour.

00:57:29,999 --> 00:57:31,899

We'll be doing another

episode of Outwired.

00:57:32,279 --> 00:57:35,709

Otherwise, we will see you next week for

another episode of MC Fireside Chats.

00:57:35,929 --> 00:57:36,329

Thanks, guys.

00:57:36,329 --> 00:57:36,989

I appreciate it.

00:57:37,329 --> 00:57:37,949

Jeff Hoffman: Thank you, Brian.

00:57:37,949 --> 00:57:38,419

James Grant: Thank you, guys.

00:57:38,589 --> 00:57:38,809

Thank you.

00:57:38,809 --> 00:57:39,139

Peter Lovering: Thanks.

00:57:39,169 --> 00:57:39,589

James Grant: Thanks, Brian.

00:57:39,589 --> 00:57:40,089

John McMahon: All right, bye.