Artwork for podcast Stories of Strangeness
Episode 39 - The Dodleston Messages - Descript
Episode 396th December 2021 • Stories of Strangeness • Zoe and Mike
00:00:00 01:02:30

Share Episode

Shownotes

In this episode, Mike tells us about the strange story of The Dodleston Messages, where messages from both the 1540's and 2109 appeared on a pre-internet computer, but also includes poltergeist activity and other weird goings-on.

We also talk about gravy; the perhaps sinister origins of social media; and the Dead Internet theory.

Here's a rundown of the episode:

01:08 - Hello!

01:38 - Presented Piece: The Dodleston Messages

25:31 - Discussion

30:31 - Fun Fact: Missing Time

31:57 - Discussion

58:09 - Thanks & Where You Can Find Us

1:01:53 - Bye!

Total Runtime: 1:02:30

Links

Promo

No promo this episode.

We're looking for new promo partners!

Got a podcast? Think your listeners would like our show? Think our listeners might like yours?

Drop us a line at storiesofstrangeness@gmail.com if you're interested in doing a promo swap.

We're also on Audrey.io for promo swaps - https://app.audry.io/publisher/discover/1515122258

Research Links

https://tomruffles.wordpress.com/2020/08/14/the-vertical-plane-by-ken-webster/

https://www.ozy.com/true-and-stories/did-a-ghost-inhabit-this-computer-or-was-it-a-long-con/97259/

https://mercuriuspoliticus.wordpress.com/2010/11/01/ghost-in-the-machine/

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/95iuyz/unexplained_phenomena_the_dodleston_messages/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodleston

https://www.darkhistories.com/the-dodleston-messages-ghost-in-the-machine/

http://www.worlditc.org/c_07_senki_f_38.09.htm

https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2017/02/17-05-mu-podcast/

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/threads/the-dodleston-messages-vertical-plane.51248/

https://archive.org/details/the-vertical-plane-ken-webster/page/n1/mode/2up

https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/19092321/

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/9878-the-vertical-plane/

https://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1178623/pg1

http://time-slips.blogspot.com/2011/08/wot-strange-wordes-thou-speke-again-and.html

https://macyafterlife.com/2018/02/10/time-hopping-the-amazing-story-of-ken-webster/

https://shows.acast.com/reallifeghoststories/episodes/138-the-dodleston-messages

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEDgG5MKndo

Our Links

  • Website - Sign up for email alerts, view the gallery, and other cool stuff.
  • Instagram - Where we hang out the most.
  • Facebook - We have a page and a group - come talk to us!
  • Twitter - Mike sends all our tweets - blame him!
  • Our Redbubble page, where you can find all of our designs and illustrations on loads of products.
  • Our Patreon page, if you'd like to support the show. We're starting with 2 tiers: £1 a month, to support the show, which is about $1.37, where we will thank you personally on the show - and £3 a month, which is about $4.10, that will enable you to listen to minisodes, outtakes, timelapse art videos and other bonus content.

Transcripts

Zoe:

Hello, and welcome to episode 39 of stories of strangeness

Zoe:

I'm Zoe, and this is Mike,

Mike:

hello,

Zoe:

and

Zoe:

today it is, a manic episode.

Zoe:

So off you go love.

Mike:

Okay.

Mike:

Strapping, it's going to get very weird

Zoe:

when doesn't it

Mike:

dis this is a real brain melter.

Mike:

This has almost melted my brain writing

Zoe:

really?

Zoe:

Oh, wow.

Zoe:

I'm looking forward to this then.

Mike:

So this is a tale that I only found out about recently, which amazes

Mike:

me because it's been around for a while.

Mike:

But it's managed to slip under my radar.

Mike:

And this is a tale that involves poltergeists hauntings time slips

Mike:

to both the future and the past.

Mike:

Odd language and psychic investigations.

Zoe:

you haven't just redone skin walk around Chevy.

Zoe:

No,

Mike:

but this is, this is in terms of ones we've done.

Mike:

This is up there with skim Walker ranch and the Montauk project.

Zoe:

high.

Zoe:

wow.

Zoe:

Okay.

Mike:

So

Mike:

this is the Donaldson messages, 1984 Cheshire England.

Mike:

The small village of Donnelson sits almost on the border of England

Mike:

and Wales on the English side.

Mike:

It is a blink and you'll miss it type of place.

Mike:

It has a post office village shop, village hall, a green, a school and

Mike:

a church and a pub, which a grade two listed buildings in the 2011 census.

Mike:

It had a population of 715.

Mike:

Ken Webster lived in meadow cottage in the village, which he was in

Mike:

the process of renovating along with his girlfriend, Debbie Oaks.

Mike:

Ken worked as an economics teacher in a local school, but

Mike:

his passion was music and he was trying to put the band together.

Mike:

Initially

Mike:

the pair along with their house guests, Nicola, Bagley observed some

Mike:

strange phenomena in the cottage.

Mike:

Occasionally they would come home to find objects stacked up, usually

Mike:

tins of food and other small items.

Mike:

Sometimes over four feet high, the occupants put it down to a

Mike:

house-warming prank by local friends.

Mike:

I'd have to apologize if you can hear thumps in the background, but our upstairs

Mike:

neighbors have decided to have an elephant parade during the recording of this show.

Mike:

Also, they found tiny footprints on the wall that faded and then

Mike:

reappeared in a different position.

Mike:

Even weirder, the footprints showed six toes and sometimes seem to walk up the

Mike:

wall and through the ceiling can painted over them, thinking them odd grime in

Mike:

an old house, choke marks appeared and the temperature inside fluctuated often

Mike:

dipping to a chill sometimes accompanied by a draft that was strong enough to

Mike:

lift a newspaper into the air later.

Mike:

They all heard the sounds of footsteps.

Mike:

It was all very odd and both of the classic marks of a haunting and

Mike:

Poltergeist activity, but that was nothing compared to what was to come.

Mike:

Nicola, wanted to write performance sketches to apply for an equity.

Mike:

Can you that he was allowed to sign out a BBC microcomputer from the school

Mike:

he worked at to use at home and did.

Mike:

So the BBC micro was an early home computer that used five and a quarter

Mike:

inch floppy disc gets for storage and had a very basic word processing

Mike:

package named Edward pre-installed.

Mike:

It's important to note that this is pre-internet days.

Mike:

The BBC micro was capable of joining a local network called eco net

Mike:

eco net was rudimentary and didn't include remote access capabilities

Mike:

or nothing like the internet ready capabilities of even a modern phone.

Mike:

The network was often flaky too, and some machines just

Mike:

dropped off the network randomly.

Mike:

In fact, the BBC micro, although technically high quality in terms of

Mike:

both hardware and software at the time, wouldn't now be able to compete with even

Mike:

a basic smartphone from 10 years ago, in terms of features or raw computing power,

Mike:

the BBC micro couldn't even multitask.

Mike:

If you were running one program such as Edward, that's, all you

Mike:

were doing, there were no other programs running in the background.

Mike:

The machine was left, switched on in the kitchen one day and to the

Mike:

occupants amazement words appeared on the screen in the form of a poem.

Mike:

Ken, Debbie, Nick, true are the nightmares of a person that fears safe of the bodies

Mike:

of the silent Turn pretty flower turn towards the sun, but you shall grow.

Mike:

And so, but the flower reaches too high.

Mike:

And with us in the burning light, get out your brain.

Mike:

Pussycat pussycat went to London to seek fame and fortune.

Mike:

Faith must not be lost for this shall be your Redeemer.

Zoe:

Wow.

Mike:

Two months later, the trio returned from a drive to find a

Mike:

file called rate on the computer.

Mike:

You had to press C to create a new document, not the whole word.

Mike:

None of them had created it.

Mike:

And on opening it, they found the following message.

Mike:

I write on behalf of many what strange words that will speak.

Mike:

Although I must confess that I have also been ill schooled.

Mike:

Sometimes me thinks alterations are somewhat baffle for the break.

Mike:

Many as sleeps in mind, bed thou art goodly, man who have fanciful

Mike:

woman who dwell in mine home.

Mike:

I have no want to afraid for only Sith mine.

Mike:

Half witted.

Mike:

Antic has ripped a Twain mind.

Mike:

How have I been RISD a night?

Mike:

I have seen many alterations, lastly, charged house and thou home does a

Mike:

fitting place with lights, which devil maker and costly things that only

Mike:

mind friend Edmund gray can afford, or the king himself towards a great

Mike:

crime to have bribed mine house L w somewhat unsettled by the messages.

Mike:

Ken brought them to the attention of his colleague, Peter Trinda, who was

Mike:

a teacher of medieval literature.

Mike:

Peter was convinced it was written in old English messages, continue

Mike:

to appear on the computer.

Mike:

The sender signed himself as LW and said he lived in the same cottage

Mike:

they did, but in 1521, LW believed Ken, Debbie and Nick to be demons or.

Mike:

And even mentioned paranormal activity in his home, similar to

Mike:

that experience by the group in 1984, effectively, both sender and receiver

Mike:

believed the other party to be ghosts.

Mike:

Ken wrote back, and the two time periods traded messages for awhile.

Mike:

They asked him who the king was and how old the king was, where he lived.

Mike:

And so on LW revealed his name was Lucas Wainman and that he lived

Mike:

under king Henry, the eighth's rain, and that the king was six and

Mike:

40 years looking Henry the eighth would have been about 30 in 15, 21.

Mike:

Lucas said he could see the cottage and its inhabitants somewhat,

Mike:

although details of how a scant, including renovations being done.

Mike:

But the group in 1984 did not have the same capability to see

Mike:

the cottage back in the 1500.

Mike:

Later they discovered that Lucas had apparently lived there sometime

Mike:

between 1543 and 1547 during Henry the eighth marriage to Catherine Parr.

Mike:

He had been married with a son, but lost both wife and child to the plague in 1517.

Mike:

Another message.

Mike:

Red mind friend.

Mike:

Pray what?

Mike:

Strange fury art they'll.

Mike:

I am confused.

Mike:

So you be me thinks goodly, but your listings Augusta me much.

Mike:

They'll say they'll live, but they are not.

Mike:

So if y'all lived, ya'll would say y'all know, not of mine.

Mike:

Jesus college, man college be brace knows from whence.

Mike:

I'd be expelled for not expunging.

Mike:

The name of the Pope.

Mike:

if y'all note devise unto me, then I must make end to mind words with you.

Mike:

This would cause me much despair.

Mike:

Lucas Lucas originally said he studied at Jesus' college in Oxford,

Mike:

but this was a trap as Jesus college was not founded until the 1570s.

Mike:

Of course, this doesn't explain how Lucas could have known about the founding

Mike:

of the college around 30 years prior.

Mike:

But Lucas had actually studied at brace knows college Oxford, but had

Mike:

been forced to leave for failing to remove the Pope's name from documents.

Mike:

This was in direct contravention of his earliest statement

Mike:

saying he had been ill schooled.

Mike:

Ken left out pictures for Lucas, which summarily disappeared.

Mike:

One of a car prompted Lucas to respond that the courage

Mike:

would go no way without horses.

Mike:

And it returned with scorched edges.

Mike:

Still not convinced that it wasn't some kind of practical hope.

Mike:

The group check for signs of intrusion into the home, but found nothing.

Mike:

The messages almost always came when Ken was out of the house, but sometimes

Mike:

happened when Debbie was in the group now, including Peter began to research

Mike:

to see if they could find anything about a Lucas Wainman from the 1540s, but came

Mike:

up short, this hardened, the group's belief that the whole thing was a hoax.

Mike:

They tried to corroborate some of the information Lucas had given them.

Mike:

And while some of it held true, some seemed almost correct, but not quite.

Mike:

And some they couldn't confirm.

Mike:

Debbie had also experienced several other phenomenon while alone in the cottage.

Mike:

Tapping sounds a feeling of the presence in the house and even had pulling it.

Mike:

In addition, Debbie began dreaming of Lucas where she would travel

Mike:

back in time and meet with him sometimes in suggestive ways.

Mike:

And Lucas talked about these meetings in his communications, leaving

Mike:

Debbie to wonder if somehow she was behind the messages herself, perhaps

Mike:

subconsciously at one point Peter half jokingly asked Ken if their house

Mike:

was on a lay line, the mystical lines of power that criss-cross England.

Mike:

And presumably the globe, Debbie did some research and found that the

Mike:

cottage lay practically on top of one.

Mike:

At one point, Ken told Lucas that they were from 1984 and that's when things

Mike:

took a turn for the even weirder.

Mike:

Lucas told Ken that he had assumed they were from 2109.

Mike:

Like the others who had visited.

Zoe:

2109

Mike:

Yes

Mike:

Lucas then told them of the 2109 collective.

Mike:

One of whom who was named one had visited to set up a time link within

Mike:

the cottage and delivered the Leams voiced or box of lights slash computer.

Mike:

Lucas said that one was a green colored time traveler.

Mike:

The group then tried to message 2109, leaving a simple message on

Mike:

the computer reading, calling 2109.

Mike:

They decided to go to the pub after no answer was forthcoming upon returning.

Mike:

However, they had to reply.

Mike:

Ken, Deb, Peter, we are sorry that we can give you only two choices.

Mike:

One that you either have your predicament explained in such a non-prime way, that

Mike:

you may have instant understanding, but because what should not be to happen

Mike:

or to try to understand that you three have a purpose that shall in your life.

Mike:

Changes the face of history.

Mike:

We 2109 must not affect your thoughts directly, but give you

Mike:

some sort of guidance that will allow room for your own destiny.

Mike:

All we can say is that we are all part of the same God, whatever he, it is,

Zoe:

that's terrifying.

Mike:

it transpired that 2109 may have been interfering with the messages from

Mike:

Lucas changing or censoring them over the course of many more messages with

Mike:

both Lucas in 1540 something and 21 0 9 0 9 seemed to become more antagonistic

Mike:

and gave Ken the impression that this was all an experiment of theirs.

Mike:

Although the reason for which was unknown,

Mike:

another 2109 message.

Mike:

It is better to have no knowledge at all than to have a distorted view of the truth

Mike:

because of your lack of understanding.

Mike:

We 2109 are not without compassion, but if you continue to disrupt

Mike:

our experiments than it is likely you will find your destiny.

Mike:

We shall.

Mike:

However, allow one more communication with you so that you

Mike:

may ask your profound questions.

Mike:

We shall answer, as you wish, if in terms of physics, then it shall be.

Mike:

So, but remember that our limits are set by your own abilities and not ours.

Mike:

There is no one after the man you call Lucas, the chance factor will not reoccur

Mike:

again in a time span, you can relate to,

Mike:

oh, the messages from 2109.

Mike:

Describe the mechanisms of Poltergeist phenomena.

Mike:

And they told Ken that his activities have unleashed this and they

Mike:

are stopping all communications with Lucas until things called.

Mike:

The one called one, also visited Lucas and told him something similar.

Mike:

Ken and Debbie then heard from someone else in the 1540s, another Thomas,

Mike:

this one, fouls Hearst, the local sheriff who told them that Lucas had

Mike:

been incarcerated after being accused of witchcraft, due to his interactions

Mike:

with the Leams voiced computer

Mike:

The group also learned that his real name was not Lucas Wainman, but

Mike:

Thomas harden spelled Hawarden, the sheriff was convinced to let Thomas

Mike:

ni Lucas out after they threatened to use their powers against him.

Mike:

Luckily returned to the jet.

Mike:

I wouldn't be filmed for several centuries.

Mike:

And so the ruse worked.

Mike:

It was around this time that the society for psychical research began

Mike:

an investigation at Ken's request.

Mike:

They came to investigate the house three times, but found no evidence

Mike:

of spirit activity within the house.

Mike:

They could not explain the messages though and found no evidence of a

Mike:

hoax, either the group researched Thomas harden and discovered that

Mike:

he was indeed a real person who lived in that time period, 2109.

Mike:

At that point was perturbed at 1984 had learned the real name of 1540s.

Mike:

Responding at present.

Mike:

You have two Lucas's running around your house.

Mike:

If at any time the two are to meet, we kind of to explain the devastation

Mike:

that will erupt in the time continuum.

Mike:

We must stop communication with Lucas one, but we cannot interfere with the other.

Mike:

You must help by giving us every word uttered by Thomas.

Mike:

From the second you received his true name.

Mike:

You must also state how much information you have on this man.

Mike:

Everything word for word, avoid any other communication you may have with him?

Mike:

Desperation be quick.

Mike:

Ken and Debbie didn't trust 2109.

Mike:

By this point.

Mike:

However, I began to communicate with Thomas on paper.

Mike:

Debbie left paper around the house and found Thomas's handwriting on it

Mike:

in charcoal, Ken, then ask 2109, if they can get rid of the Poltergeist

Mike:

activity so that they can talk with Thomas again and received a reply.

Mike:

Yes, we shall hold back as best we can on the PG.

Mike:

Sorry you find us so friendly.

Mike:

Ask the man, David, what he thinks of conjectural Taki ons and what

Mike:

are his theories of causality?

Mike:

What answer does he have for its paradox?

Mike:

Cheers.

Mike:

2,109.

Zoe:

Yeah.

Zoe:

Cheers.

Mike:

Ken did in fact know a man named David who had an interest in tacky ons

Mike:

and had in fact been giving a class on them that very morning, further messages

Mike:

spoke of time, travel and dimensions.

Mike:

We are in what you would call attacky on universe, but your

Mike:

understanding is incorrect.

Mike:

We will give you a plotting of a star next time we move it to speed so that we cover

Mike:

every point in your time and universe.

Mike:

We have no form.

Mike:

We feed of a neat energy that you will not have heard of

Mike:

the society for psychical research SPR.

Mike:

It was still in the background of the case.

Mike:

Wondered about the house being bugged or otherwise monitored in

Mike:

order to hoax the responses, but nothing was found on a sweep.

Mike:

Can I ask 2109.

Mike:

If they needed a computer and monitor to communicate, they responded by saying it

Mike:

was like two men back to back on top of a mountain, surrounded by other mountains.

Mike:

They have to angle their vocalizations.

Mike:

Very exactly in order for the sound to reach the other person via the

Mike:

least number of echoes possible.

Mike:

So too much of the signal isn't absorbed.

Zoe:

Yes.

Zoe:

Then

Mike:

Thomas then sent a last message saying that he'd been forced to

Mike:

leave his home because the people of Donaldson were very wary of him.

Mike:

Unplanned to burn down his farm.

Mike:

He planned to write a book about his experiences.

Mike:

One day you will all sit down at my table for wine and meat by the river in Oxford,

Mike:

where we shall read each other's books.

Mike:

and we shall speak of truth and good men watching Oxford change

Mike:

together, forevermore and your time, my book is old, but I shall not

Mike:

go to my God until it is written.

Mike:

Then we will all be truly embraced.

Mike:

My love to you all.

Mike:

Actually wait you in Oxford Thomas harden, 2109, confirmed that Thomas

Mike:

indeed wrote the book in Latin and placed it in a secure area.

Mike:

They

Mike:

said that the inscription read me, writes this in the hope that mind

Mike:

fellows will one day find this book.

Mike:

Then may our lands be not so distant.

Mike:

can ask 2109 about UFO's and we're told that time UFO's and most

Mike:

other types of the paranormal are in some way, all connected.

Mike:

They then explained about areas of contextual magnetism that invoked the

Mike:

lines of magnetism that run around the earth with clockwise being positive.

Mike:

And anticlockwise being negative where these lines converge on a permanent basis.

Mike:

That can be a distortion of the light slash time continuum, such

Mike:

that a sensitive individual make glimpse a timescale, which is

Mike:

to say a past or future event.

Mike:

At some point, Ken was pointed to a man called Gary Rowe by 0 9.

Mike:

It was a UFO researcher, 2109 had messages for RO.

Mike:

It was important in some way in the grand scheme of things, 2109 had Ken

Mike:

print out their messages and deliver them to Gary without reading them

Mike:

and placing them in sealed envelopes.

Mike:

Gary apparently was rather spooked by the contents of the message.

Mike:

And refuses to talk on the matter.

Mike:

So rounding up it's worth reiterating a few key factors in the case, Ken

Mike:

borrowed the computers from his school, various machines were borrowed

Mike:

at different times, making it very difficult to have hacked all of them.

Mike:

Plus no one else who borrowed any of the machines reported anything unusual.

Mike:

The computers did not retain any information once turned off,

Mike:

unless it was safe to the five and a quarter inch floppy disc.

Mike:

This meant that some of the messages were lost and, or had to be reconstructed

Mike:

from Ken and Debbie's memories.

Mike:

There was never any evidence of break-ins at the cottage.

Mike:

And sometimes the messages appeared while one or more of the occupants were at home.

Mike:

The SPR found no evidence of either a hoax or of spiritual invalid.

Mike:

However John Bucknall was sent by John styles, the SPRs research

Mike:

liaison to the cottage to investigate.

Mike:

John arrived with colleague Dave Welch and on a subsequent visit

Mike:

with Nick sower, B Johnson.

Mike:

Apparently no report was filed with the SPR on the case.

Mike:

And when Ken contacted styles to find out what was going on, he was told

Mike:

that Bucknell had left the SPR in 86 and that Welch and so would be Johnson

Mike:

were not members, just a little aside, weirdly my writing software auto

Mike:

completed next Sowerby Johnson surname.

Mike:

After I wrote the hyphen between Sowerby and Johnson, which I've never written

Mike:

his name before now, hadn't written it earlier in the text and there would

Mike:

be no reason to have so a B Johnson follow each other, and it did it twice.

Mike:

So I wrote syllabi, hyphen, and the Johnson appeared and I hadn't had it

Mike:

previously in that text or anywhere else that I've written anything before.

Mike:

As far as I know,

Zoe:

that's really

Mike:

why would a hoaxer involve a future time, albeit without

Mike:

many details about that period, it would only serve to confuse matters

Mike:

and add complexity to the hoax.

Mike:

Why would a hoax or choose the BBC?

Mike:

Micro is a way to send messages.

Mike:

How would they have achieved this?

Mike:

Also messages were communicated with charcoal and paper, which in theory

Mike:

would require a physical presence in the cottage replies with sometimes appear

Mike:

quickly, making it difficult to compose 16th century language replies, unless

Mike:

the center had intimate knowledge of grammar and sentence structure from

Mike:

the time not to mention some of the more obscure words from the periods,

Mike:

which can, and Peter had to look up.

Mike:

The language of the messages is dubious.

Mike:

However, the 2,109 messages contain many spelling, mistakes and

Mike:

inconsistencies, which precluded any analysis of how language had

Mike:

changed in the intervening time.

Mike:

According to a consultant expert, despite Peter's assertion that the

Mike:

language from Thomas was spot on for the 16th century and himself being a

Mike:

teacher of medieval literature, Dr.

Mike:

Laura Wright of Cambridge university also analyzed the text and concluded

Mike:

that the verb structure meant Thomas made statements in a way people would not have

Mike:

at the time she expanded by saying if it's meant to look like early modern English

Mike:

writing, it doesn't even look close.

Mike:

Ken replied by saying that no academic who wanted to keep their job would say.

Mike:

But write conducted further analysis of the incidence of adjectives in front

Mike:

of nouns and found an almost identical frequency between Thomas' messages and

Mike:

descriptive passages written by Ken at 26% and 26.8% respectively against 32 to 35%.

Mike:

In other writing samples from the period 10 denied authorship and claimed that he

Mike:

was not present for about 80% of the time.

Mike:

The messages appeared often going for a drive while waiting for responses.

Mike:

Ken also stated that, right, and the BBC selected only one message out of

Mike:

possibly hundreds that were received.

Mike:

And th that would not be representative of the text as a whole.

Mike:

How did Thomas know about the founding of a college in Oxford

Mike:

decades before it happened?

Mike:

The BBC actually covered this case in an episode of, out of this world in August,

Mike:

1996, presented by Carol Vorderman actors.

Mike:

We use to recreate the events as by this point, Ken and Debbie

Mike:

were tired of the whole thing and wanted to move on with their lives.

Mike:

Although they did appear in interview with Richard Wiseman later in the episode,

Mike:

but not shown clearly Vardaman said that Wiseman spoke to two SPR investigators.

Mike:

The second one was not specified who had chosen not to appear.

Mike:

They had thought it was a hoax, but had no idea how it was done.

Mike:

Allegedly can Debbie and Gary have apparently appeared on various online

Mike:

message boards over the years to state that whatever happened to them

Mike:

was real, but generally offer no more illumination into the case than that.

Mike:

Those messages of course could be created by hoaxes.

Mike:

Ken wrote a book called the vertical plane in 1989, which is

Mike:

now out of print, secondhand copies regularly sell online for hundreds.

Mike:

It could be found as a digitized copy though, such as a PDF Ben from the dark

Mike:

histories, Paul cast read the book and said that the writing was awful and that

Mike:

Ken spent way too much time trying to convince the reader that he didn't believe

Mike:

any of it, which seems an odd stance, particularly if the idea is to sell books.

Mike:

The book that Thomas wrote has yet to be found

Zoe:

oh, that's cause it's stashed somewhere.

Mike:

What do you think?

Zoe:

I love it.

Zoe:

It's

Zoe:

amazing.

Mike:

It's crap.

Mike:

Crazy

Zoe:

to start

Zoe:

off with when you were saying how

Zoe:

Thomas,

Zoe:

What was his name before Lucas?

Zoe:

Thomas?

Zoe:

When he was saying he could see them.

Zoe:

I immediately thought of the film, the others

Zoe:

because we spend so long thinking, oh my

Zoe:

goodness, there's ghosts in their house, Then we realized

Mike:

but she's the ghost.

Zoe:

Spoilers.

Zoe:

No, no.

Zoe:

Yeah,

Mike:

out a while.

Mike:

If you haven't seen it by now.

Mike:

Tough

Zoe:

I know.

Zoe:

Right.

Zoe:

But it does

Zoe:

have that kind of feel to

Zoe:

it that oh my

Zoe:

goodness, I can see things and I thought you were devils, And

Zoe:

then it's like no, hold on.

Zoe:

You're the one stacking my beans.

Mike:

Yeah.

Mike:

You got the one stuck in my beans.

Zoe:

It is it's really, I love it.

Mike:

I've watched part of the out of this world episode,

Mike:

which can be found on YouTube.

Mike:

And the recreation is unintentionally hilarious.

Mike:

The stacking they do is incredible.

Mike:

They, they, it's not just like stacks of tins of beans.

Mike:

They have this almost 3d sculpture thing going on, where things are

Mike:

balanced on like a knife edge.

Mike:

There's literally, there's like a save with a tin of beans on

Zoe:

top of

Mike:

that and then a knife.

Mike:

And then, you know, so I don't know.

Mike:

I assume it was more just kind of stacked up.

Mike:

In fact, there is a, there is a couple of photos that I'll, I'll put on the website.

Mike:

One of the real Debbie sitting at the BBC micro, but another one where it's

Mike:

a shot, the living room and all the furniture is just piled up in one corner.

Mike:

Now you coulda done that yourself.

Mike:

We could do that in here now if we wanted,

Zoe:

be bothered,

Mike:

but yeah.

Mike:

Can we be bothered at right?

Mike:

Could you be able to do it from a hoax?

Mike:

I dunno.

Mike:

Maybe hoax is a weird things.

Mike:

I don't understand people that hope things if I'm

Zoe:

Yeah.

Zoe:

because then if you're found out It just kind of poo-poos all the other ones

Zoe:

that could be real and everyone goes, oh, well, if you did that one,

Mike:

only that.

Mike:

You're always risking being found out.

Zoe:

I just used the words poo-pooed

Mike:

and yeah, I just, other than attention, I don't know

Mike:

what people get out of it.

Mike:

I just, I really don't understand hoaxing things and being like, he,

Mike:

he, he, I guess it's that kind of like little shared secret between you and

Mike:

somebody else that the rest of the world doesn't know and you know that

Mike:

it's not real ha but it's like, it's a bit, it's a bit self-indulgent Wyant

Zoe:

Yeah.

Zoe:

But Sometimes

Zoe:

a hoax starts off as just like a

Zoe:

little joke

Zoe:

that two people are like, oh yeah, let's do this, let's

Zoe:

do this.

Zoe:

But then it's

Mike:

of spiral out

Zoe:

spirals.

Zoe:

And when someone else

Zoe:

Starts believing, and then spreads

Zoe:

it, Then you're like,

Zoe:

oh, what

Zoe:

do we do now?

Zoe:

So then you have to

Zoe:

make that

Zoe:

choice, whether you go, oh, it was me sorry.

Zoe:

or

Zoe:

you go, I'm not

Zoe:

going

Zoe:

to say anything Step

Zoe:

away, slowly disappear

Zoe:

your home or disappearing into the

Mike:

in so many of these cases that we cover, it's like, oh, the people

Mike:

that experienced the things, hoaxed it.

Mike:

But you, you know, from what you glean from them, most of them a again,

Mike:

don't make any money out of this.

Mike:

I don't think Ken's book sold particularly well at the time.

Mike:

I think it might sell a bit better now, but he's not getting the

Mike:

royalties from secondhand book sales.

Mike:

And like I say, you can find it online as it like a digitized

Mike:

copy, which I've already got, but I haven't read cause I just haven't

Zoe:

that this is a thing.

Zoe:

What if I'm 2109?

Zoe:

I started to like write.

Zoe:

things in the,

Mike:

Yeah.

Mike:

In the

Zoe:

in the margins.

Mike:

Yeah.

Mike:

Well, actually it was funny.

Mike:

You mentioned that because somebody online was saying, oh, you can

Mike:

find it here, here, and here.

Mike:

Kind of thing, pointing to links where you can find digitized copies

Mike:

of the books for, let's say less than some money so effectively for you.

Mike:

And then somebody else basically replied and went.

Mike:

Yeah.

Mike:

But you've got to be careful with like digital copies because it's so easy for

Mike:

them to be tampered with in changing.

Mike:

And there's somebody else kind of went, who would want

Mike:

a tamper and change the book.

Mike:

And he went 2109.

Mike:

So you're like, well, okay.

Mike:

All right.

Mike:

And you've got me there.

Mike:

But yeah, batshit crazy case

Zoe:

really weird.

Zoe:

I

Mike:

starts off with polo guy stuff

Zoe:

then they bring it in the two Luca Lucas, Thomas.

Zoe:

I might, You've

Zoe:

got two of those running around, Wait, hold on.

Zoe:

Two of them what'd you mean it's like two,

Zoe:

two different timelines

Mike:

streams.

Mike:

Yeah.

Zoe:

and that's why Maybe in his time

Zoe:

stream Henry.

Zoe:

V8 was born at a slightly

Zoe:

different time.

Zoe:

And that's why

Zoe:

the age difference,

Zoe:

didn't matter.

Zoe:

maybe maybe the,

Zoe:

The uni university

Zoe:

was built at a different

Mike:

Yeah Yeah.

Mike:

But it is weird that you D he basically said, you know, if you were alive, now,

Mike:

you would say, you didn't know about Jesus college, because it essentially hasn't

Mike:

been built, but it's not like, well, how do you know it's going to be built?

Mike:

And that doesn't make any sense.

Mike:

That's one of the really glaring things about it for me.

Zoe:

I have

Zoe:

an amazing weird

Zoe:

fact.

Zoe:

like, No, the fun fact, but the thing is, I don't know the the fact of it yet.

Zoe:

So I just need, I know,

Mike:

I

Mike:

have a fun fact that I don't know the fact of it.

Mike:

What, what,

Zoe:

Bear with me.

Zoe:

I've got to find it.

Zoe:

So I've got the weird, this weird fact Okay.

Zoe:

that there's time that doesn't exist.

Zoe:

Okay.

Zoe:

So when

Zoe:

we changed

Zoe:

to.

Zoe:

like the leap year calendar.

Zoe:

we did it

Zoe:

after everybody else,

Zoe:

so they'd

Zoe:

already done it.

Zoe:

So we had to catch up

Zoe:

with them.

Mike:

we as in Britain.

Mike:

Yeah.

Zoe:

Yeah.

Mike:

Okay.

Mike:

So

Zoe:

we lost 11 days in September in 1752.

Zoe:

when it happened,

Mike:

Why did the guy,

Zoe:

I don't know, just into nothingness.

Zoe:

So

Mike:

down the back of the sidebar.

Zoe:

My thing was,

Zoe:

what if that was your birthday?

Zoe:

What was your birth?

Zoe:

You just don't get a birthday this year.

Zoe:

Cause it doesn't exist does that

Mike:

11 days in September.

Mike:

You're stuffed.

Mike:

If that was your birthday.

Zoe:

Yeah.

Zoe:

So um it's, it's really, really weird.

Zoe:

So yeah, everyone else had changed and they wanted to correct it.

Zoe:

So they went right.

Zoe:

Okay.

Zoe:

And they just, yeah.

Zoe:

And it says in order that religious fee states be held on their traditional

Zoe:

dates, for example, Christmas.

Zoe:

day Remaining on the 25th Easter is a movable one So, you

Zoe:

the,

Zoe:

yeah, I'm not going to go into all the crazy craziness of it,

Zoe:

but they

Zoe:

had to move things excite people being like, well, what about payday?

Zoe:

Do you skip payday?

Zoe:

Do You have to move payday.

Zoe:

What about the year?

Zoe:

Like the financial year, there's all sorts of

Zoe:

things.

Zoe:

It's like, there's randomly went and they were gone.

Zoe:

like a poof smoke.

Mike:

So kind of on that note, I was looking at the months being out of

Mike:

order because a lot of the months are named after Roman emperors.

Mike:

Aren't they?

Zoe:

Yeah.

Zoe:

But they're also,

Mike:

September.

Mike:

Julius July

Zoe:

like October, that's supposed to be the eighth month.

Mike:

Yeah.

Mike:

And September is supposed to be the seventh.

Mike:

But it's the ninth.

Mike:

And it's because apparently the Romans only had 10 months in their calendar,

Mike:

so it worked out right for them.

Mike:

But then two more months were added July after Julius Caesar and

Mike:

August named after Augustus Caesar.

Mike:

So it was basically Julius Caesar cocked up the entire year for everyone else.

Mike:

And obviously did so because he was like, I'm important.

Mike:

I'm going to have a month named after me and bugger all the other

Mike:

months that I was supposed to be in a specific numerical order.

Mike:

So yeah, it was Julius Caesar that knackered the year basically.

Zoe:

yeah.

Mike:

And I want sat down and figured out that, and I might've mentioned

Mike:

this before, actually on the show, but.

Mike:

If we had 28 days in every month,

Zoe:

we went

Zoe:

into that didn't we it would all be even

Mike:

we'd have 13, 13 months,

Zoe:

13 months because

Zoe:

there is supposed to be 13 star signs.

Zoe:

And that would make, be being paid super easy because it would

Mike:

Does it mean

Zoe:

four weeks?

Zoe:

in a month.

Zoe:

And, oh my goodness.

Zoe:

Wouldn't it just be So much

Mike:

January would be a lot easier to navigate because you wouldn't

Mike:

have that long pay over from Christmas where you get paid early.

Mike:

And then all of a sudden you've got wait until the end of January to

Mike:

get paid again, which is bloody ages

Zoe:

Yeah.

Zoe:

I know.

Zoe:

But I've never really got that it's like, you've received the same amount of money

Zoe:

deal with

Mike:

it.

Mike:

You have, but you've also received it earlier in December

Mike:

than you would normally

Zoe:

Okay.

Zoe:

So

Mike:

and then spend it all on presence.

Zoe:

well, that's stupid fol Spend what you haven't.

Zoe:

got.

Mike:

Well, that's easy enough to say isn't it.

Mike:

But anyway, I'm a bit disappointed.

Mike:

Cause I've actually listened to at least two other podcasts about this.

Mike:

I tried listening to a third one and just hated the style of the show and

Mike:

the presenters so much that I turned it off about 10 minutes in couldn't

Mike:

handle it, but it just, it wasn't for me, it was personal preference.

Mike:

I didn't like the way they presented the show.

Mike:

There was too many little in jokes and ha ha laughers kind of

Mike:

thing without actually giving.

Mike:

I was like 10 minutes in and they barely scratched the surface of the information.

Mike:

I was like, this is just CAC.

Mike:

So I wanted to put a bit more about Gary row in there.

Mike:

Cause there was more information about him and about his involvement and I couldn't

Mike:

find any of it online and I didn't really have time to sit and listen through

Mike:

at least two podcasts to see which one gave me the information I was missing.

Mike:

But yeah, apparently gallery.

Mike:

Was a member of a, a UK UFO research organization.

Mike:

When he received these messages, the contents of it freaked him

Mike:

out so much that he essentially just kind of went, okay, I'm done

Mike:

nothing more to do with this case.

Mike:

Don't want to talk about it.

Mike:

Yeah.

Mike:

Literally just backed away.

Mike:

And I think he kind of took a back seat in the UFO community for a while as well.

Mike:

Um

Zoe:

There was

Zoe:

something that kind of hearkened to another case that maybe

Zoe:

he'd looked at and all the, all

Mike:

or just like personal information that somebody who was handing him a

Mike:

sealed envelope shouldn't have known, you know, and it's like, you know,

Mike:

and again, we're in pre-internet days.

Mike:

So this wasn't like you could just Google Gary Rowe and see what he was up to and

Zoe:

is I think you, I think nowadays we just assume that if

Zoe:

you need to know something, it is literally just there in the Palm of

Zoe:

your

Mike:

hand

Zoe:

Yeah.

Zoe:

Like wherever you go and you forget.

Zoe:

like, As a kid, as a teenager, as even as a young adult, if you need you to know

Zoe:

something, you had to go to the library

Mike:

or you just weren't ignorant,

Zoe:

yeah.

Zoe:

Or you just kind of, oh, you try

Zoe:

to find someone else who, who knew what you wanted to

Mike:

Yeah.

Mike:

I mean, I'll research used to be going to the library, looking through

Mike:

microfiche of newspaper articles and things like that literally for hours on

Zoe:

and lists And lists and photocopies making photocopies

Zoe:

and highlighting shit And

Mike:

other than

Zoe:

oh my God.

Mike:

tophi, tophi, Google, and then pop your answer

Zoe:

Yeah.

Zoe:

And it's,

Mike:

So, I mean, it's, it's kind of a Testament to how much the

Mike:

internet has changed everything.

Zoe:

And it really just makes that there.

Zoe:

So there's no excuse, really these days for, for not

Mike:

So I was also watching an interesting thing on YouTube just as

Mike:

a kind of slightly related odd thing.

Mike:

That was saying, there's a theory that basically.

Mike:

It's called the dead internet theory.

Mike:

And if you go back to kind of the early days of the internet, so like maybe

Mike:

say like early nineties, something like that, it was just a kind of a knock

Mike:

free-for-all people just posted the thoughts and feelings on blogs, on message

Mike:

boards, use net groups and whatever.

Mike:

And it was just a free exchange of information and that kind of thing.

Mike:

And yeah, you know, you still have trolling and, you know, it was

Mike:

cyber bullying to an extent back then, but it was just kind of really

Mike:

open and, and, and unregulated,

Zoe:

Yeah.

Mike:

um Now.

Zoe:

how, how big it could be and how it could be used.

Mike:

and basically the idea is that now most people pretty much

Mike:

go to about 10 or 20 websites.

Zoe:

yeah,

Mike:

No, I mean, obviously they'll go to what I mean, you know, we do

Mike:

research and we go all over the place and find interesting websites and stuff.

Mike:

I've the list of links.

Mike:

So this episode is about as long as my arm, but the idea was that

Mike:

there's, there's about 10 websites that people generally go to.

Mike:

And it's things like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, WhatsApp

Mike:

talk, you know, I mean, I know they're all apps and whatever.

Mike:

Yeah.

Mike:

But actually 90% of the content that you see online is created by AI bots.

Mike:

And there is definitely some some truth to that because there are

Mike:

an awful lot of bots out there.

Mike:

And a lot of bots do things like watch for your preferences and tastes

Mike:

on particular websites so that they can serve you adverts or things

Mike:

that they think you'll want based on your preferences and tastes also.

Mike:

The basically the internet has become this huge echo chamber,

Mike:

which is absolutely true.

Mike:

So you go online and you kind of expound your various tastes and interests

Mike:

and preferences and bots pick up on that and reflect that back to you.

Mike:

Because a lot of the time when you see stuff online, it reinforces your views.

Zoe:

oh yeah totally like,

Zoe:

I'm I get really annoyed at this time of year because I go Christmas

Zoe:

shopping online, I'm going to do two to do, and then I'll be scrolling

Zoe:

through Facebook, and an advert for the thing that I've literally just.

Zoe:

bought.

Zoe:

Let's say

Zoe:

for you is there on an advert?

Zoe:

And I'm like, go

Zoe:

away.

Zoe:

I don't want

Zoe:

him to lean over and see this and buy it for

Zoe:

himself.

Zoe:

Why are you showing it to me

Zoe:

I've already

Zoe:

bought it?

Zoe:

Yeah.

Zoe:

It drives me

Mike:

So that kind of thing happens where, but not only that, but things like

Mike:

political views and things like that, you get your political views reinforced

Mike:

by content that you somehow stumble upon via Facebook or Twitter or whatever.

Mike:

And these things show up in your feed and you go, oh yeah, I'll click on that.

Mike:

Oh, look, here's an an article about how paranormal stuff could really be real.

Mike:

And that oh, that's interesting to me.

Mike:

And, oh, here's the thing about how Nazis are bad and yeah, I go, I agree with

Zoe:

now we've said all of this and my phone is listening.

Zoe:

It's going to be telling me all of this.

Zoe:

Again.

Mike:

when I was talking about the fact that they had also filled the

Mike:

name of that person, I was like, this is, this is a word processing app.

Mike:

I mean, it's not even that it's a markdown editor, so it's, it's very

Mike:

basic text editing, but the website would, the guy's name was open net.

Mike:

Now there's, as far as I know, no cross pollination or whatever you

Mike:

want to know between that, but it was weird how I put some of the, and I

Mike:

don't think I've ever typed that name before and then hyphen and it went

Mike:

Johnson and I was like, what the hell?

Mike:

That's so bizarre.

Zoe:

it somewhere before it's obviously interested.

Zoe:

It's learning

Mike:

the idea is that a lot of the internet is just kind of fake content

Mike:

dreamt up by AI bots to deliver stuff to you, to keep you distracted, basically.

Mike:

It's to keep the population distracted.

Zoe:

is already here.

Mike:

Yeah.

Mike:

Well, here's, here's one more terrifying piece of information for you.

Mike:

So DARPA is military kind of think group, whatever, if you like,

Mike:

where they come up with stuff.

Mike:

Now, the internet was originally part of our.

Mike:

And ARPA and DARPA linked vacate, basically.

Mike:

So opera and DARPA, I think, I think there were two separate

Mike:

things, but they were linked.

Mike:

But they essentially started creating the computer network that

Mike:

eventually became today's internet.

Mike:

And they did that as a military defensive initiative to try and see, right.

Mike:

Well, if we link computers across the country and a bomb goes off,

Mike:

we've still got still quite, quite a lot of connections so

Mike:

that we can share information.

Mike:

We can say what's going on.

Mike:

Yeah, exactly.

Mike:

Exactly.

Mike:

So it's dissemination of information over a secure channel,

Mike:

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Mike:

Right.

Mike:

So DARPA also had another initiative,

Zoe:

No gold.

Zoe:

Okay.

Zoe:

Well,

Mike:

which they called Lifelog.

Mike:

Now the point of Lifelog was to log the preferences and dislikes and everything

Mike:

else about pretty much everybody, at least in the United States, if not worldwide.

Mike:

Okay.

Mike:

And they went, right.

Mike:

What we want to do is figure out some way that people will give us this information,

Mike:

and then we can use that to log stuff.

Mike:

We can use it to root out possible terrorists.

Zoe:

band name is

Mike:

psychological profiling.

Mike:

We can use it for all sorts of purposes, both in theory, kind of

Mike:

legitimate and also possibly nefarious.

Mike:

And Lifelog was abandoned.

Mike:

They decided it wasn't.

Mike:

Worth it or whatever it was abandoned on February the fourth.

Mike:

And I think it was 2004 if I remember rightly and I'm pretty sure I do at

Mike:

that point now, do you know what else happened on February the fourth, 2004,

Zoe:

Facebook,

Mike:

Facebook was launched

Zoe:

my goodness.

Zoe:

What a great guest,

Mike:

exact same day that Lifelog was abandoned.

Mike:

just

Mike:

took

Zoe:

what can we Do to make people give us even more information?

Mike:

Do you know what the best thing they could have done was is if you're

Mike:

a military contractor or some kind of, you know, involved in the military

Mike:

industrial complex, let's say for the sake of a better term, And you're like,

Mike:

we want to log pretty much everything.

Mike:

Everybody thinks does

Mike:

likes

Mike:

dislikes, blah blah

Zoe:

makes them

Zoe:

angry What makes them sad?

Zoe:

What do they care

Zoe:

about?

Zoe:

Oh my goodness.

Zoe:

Wouldn't it

Mike:

information through some kind of AI.

Mike:

Yeah.

Mike:

In order to filter this information, to then gain a better understanding

Mike:

of human psychology and how it can maybe be manipulated.

Mike:

Right.

Mike:

What's the best thing you could do.

Mike:

The best thing you could do is go, we're shutting it down and then farm it out

Mike:

to a private contractor who you can have plausible deniability, if you can

Mike:

turn around and say, it's nothing to do with those, that's a private company.

Mike:

We don't have anything to do with that.

Mike:

So, yeah,

Mike:

there's a good reason.

Mike:

I really like to dump my Facebook account, but can't because of business reasons.

Mike:

It's still a useful tool in some ways.

Mike:

I go on it less and less and less these days.

Mike:

And I've posted virtually nothing anymore on Facebook

Zoe:

every now and again.

Zoe:

I'll think

Zoe:

to myself

Zoe:

Oh my goodness.

Zoe:

I haven't posted in ages and I'll post something really bizarre and random

Mike:

that being said, I post quite a lot on Instagram, which is owned by

Zoe:

Yeah

Mike:

I'm not

Mike:

really I'm not really some kind of

Zoe:

Isn't it?

Zoe:

There's all these umbrella

Zoe:

companies

Mike:

that?

Mike:

I think I am, I'm not some kind of subversive

Zoe:

you are literally, like,

Zoe:

I dunno what three quarters a day staring at your phone doing something.

Mike:

Yeah.

Mike:

But it's not always Facebook or

Zoe:

Yeah, I know, but you're liking and disliking you're watching

Zoe:

videos.

Zoe:

You're not

Zoe:

telling me that there's someone going, oh, he's watched that.

Zoe:

Even if you don't like it they'll know that you've

Zoe:

watched

Zoe:

it or clicked on it

Mike:

on how much of it you've

Zoe:

Exactly.

Zoe:

What put you off, where did you get to?

Zoe:

What was the bit

Zoe:

that made you switch

Zoe:

off?

Zoe:

It was that,

Mike:

yeah, yeah, exactly.

Mike:

And it really made me laugh.

Mike:

I was watching this video on YouTube about the dead internet theory and I was,

Mike:

as soon as it finished, I was like, and somebody said, Google presumably because

Mike:

they own YouTube knows that I've watched.

Mike:

That knows how much of it I've watched.

Mike:

They know that that's something I'm interested in, but you know, it's also,

Mike:

you know, they're saying that basically part of the dev internet theory is

Mike:

that the algorithms show you more of what you want to keep you engaged, to

Mike:

keep you on the sites that you go to.

Mike:

So Facebook will show you more of the stuff you want.

Mike:

Instagram will show you more the stuff.

Mike:

So every time you disliked something, the algorithm goes,

Mike:

they're not as interested in that.

Mike:

I'll try it maybe one or two more times.

Mike:

And if they're still not interested, I'll drop that topic entirely and

Mike:

show more of what they want now as a business tactic that holds up.

Mike:

Because if you want to keep people on your product, using your store, You might find

Mike:

a way to make them engaged with it, which is generally show them more of what they

Zoe:

supply and demand.

Zoe:

Isn't it?

Zoe:

That's like, that's like basic business,

Mike:

However, that can also be used kind of nefariously at the same time

Zoe:

the matrix has you

Mike:

the matrix has got us all.

Mike:

We just, yeah.

Mike:

We've and it is it's, it's the, the prison that we can't see or touch or taste.

Zoe:

I think my brain has been swirly enough as it

Zoe:

is.

Zoe:

Yeah.

Zoe:

And so, so the messages, so to get back to

Zoe:

the subject, but the messages just stopped when he said I'm being chucked out.

Zoe:

of my house.

Zoe:

I'm

Mike:

S he said, I'm being chucked out at my

Zoe:

Yeah And then I'm going to

Mike:

And then presumably, because he was in a different physical location,

Mike:

To 1984 or 2109 or whichever wasn't there when he moved.

Mike:

And then apparently the, the messages from 2109 kind of

Mike:

petered out after that as well.

Mike:

But 2,109 definitely seemed a little bit more underhand in their tactics

Mike:

with some of the stuff they were saying.

Mike:

And I mean, I've only included like a handful of the messages on here.

Mike:

And like I said, there were

Zoe:

So cause 2109 implied that these people were going to be doing something

Zoe:

groundbreaking

Mike:

that lifetime.

Zoe:

Have they done anything?

Zoe:

Do we know?

Mike:

Not that we know of.

Mike:

No.

Mike:

Can, can Webster may even be a pseudonym.

Mike:

We're not sure because they introduced him as Ken on the out of this world program,

Mike:

but they also obscure, I think they kind of show either showed them in silhouette.

Mike:

I didn't get to that point in the program.

Mike:

I didn't have time, but I will watch the rest of it at some point.

Mike:

But I assume they kind of showed them in silhouette or whatever, and

Mike:

kind of maybe discuss the voices.

Mike:

Cause they were saying, look, we, we just kind of want done with this

Mike:

now can apparently he'd got bored of it quite a long time before that and

Mike:

was

Zoe:

I ask how, how old were they?

Mike:

I don't know.

Mike:

I don't think I've found

Zoe:

that they're still about

Mike:

I think there's definitely still about,

Zoe:

So they still got time to do something

Mike:

they were maybe in the kind of twenties, possibly

Mike:

thirties, but I would say twenties

Zoe:

So they're 25 years older than me.

Zoe:

So they'd be, sort of

Zoe:

maybe in their

Mike:

sixties.

Mike:

Yeah.

Mike:

60,

Zoe:

pushing 70

Zoe:

Maybe

Mike:

But apparently the, yeah, they, they could, well still be around.

Zoe:

Yeah.

Zoe:

Interesting.

Zoe:

So they could

Zoe:

have done something but also it could be something that happens.

Zoe:

after

Zoe:

they die.

Zoe:

That is to do with them.

Zoe:

It could be it could be something as, as tenuous as their organ donors You know,

Zoe:

that kind of thing, or the book that he

Zoe:

wrote, something could come of that.

Zoe:

in years to come, you know,

Mike:

could be that it turned, they turned around and they prove all of it was true.

Mike:

And then, you know, the implications of that are huge, you know?

Zoe:

Yeah.

Zoe:

I

Mike:

mean, if, if, if we can experience time in a nonlinear fashion with time

Mike:

slips between periods, that could be huge.

Mike:

Imagine being able to just go into the future or the past and see history

Mike:

or future history as it happens,

Zoe:

terrifying.

Mike:

an answer to maybe UFO's and answer to poltergeists haunting.

Mike:

You know, they were saying most paranormal phenomena is in some way connected.

Mike:

I think, you know, there are some people that, that posit a kind of a universal

Mike:

paranormal theory that covers everything.

Mike:

And it could be something to do with either

Mike:

time

Mike:

higher dimensions, something like that.

Mike:

Well, there was, I didn't want to get into it cause it got quite bogged down at one

Mike:

point, but there was something about the 2,109 tried to explain some of the things

Mike:

and they said, okay, so the time that you perceive as linear, we call T one,

Mike:

but there are other dimensions of time.

Mike:

And apparently

Mike:

essentially like the human mind or soul or whatever you

Mike:

want to call the consciousness that resides within the brain.

Mike:

Experiences time on a different level.

Mike:

So it experiences time on T2 and that's what gives rise to

Mike:

consciousness, but it's actually housed in a physical body in T one time.

Mike:

And there are also other higher levels of time T3 T 45.

Mike:

Yeah.

Mike:

And it starts getting

Zoe:

us.

Zoe:

I'd have to, I'd have to make a whole lot of notes,

Mike:

but I'm really intrigued by the, by the one sentence of we live in what

Mike:

you would call a tacky on universe.

Mike:

Now, I don't know the first thing about tacky ons other than they

Mike:

appear on star Trek quite often.

Mike:

But other than that, I know it's some form of particle.

Zoe:

I don't think I've ever heard of

Mike:

Okay.

Mike:

So tacky ons is some form of particle, but I couldn't tell you

Mike:

what exactly or what they do or how they interact with matter in general.

Mike:

But it might be something that I will look up for another, another time.

Mike:

Maybe a T2 time or T4

Mike:

time

Zoe:

sure.

Zoe:

I think it's time 41

Mike:

time for tea.

Mike:

And you really think so a cup of tea.

Mike:

Okay Here we go.

Mike:

We always bring it back around.

Mike:

Don't you?

Zoe:

No, We haven't talked about biscuits.

Zoe:

for

Mike:

That's true What sort of biscuit do you think?

Mike:

2109 eats.

Zoe:

Well, they sound like they'd probably want something made of cardboard.

Mike:

Well, no, apparently they, they, they have no foreman and,

Mike:

and subsist on a neat energy that we would not have heard of.

Mike:

A neat also was N E T so I'm like, Hmm.

Mike:

But yeah, a lot of their stuff had really odd spellings and

Mike:

inconsistencies and linked speak.

Zoe:

speak

Mike:

Yeah.

Mike:

Maybe.

Mike:

Well, in the 15 hundreds, I'm guessing that the closest thing they had

Mike:

to a biscuit was just stale bread.

Mike:

Did they make biscuits back

Zoe:

They used to have ships biscuits quite early on didn't they

Mike:

Oh yeah.

Mike:

That were infested with weevils

Zoe:

we've also maggots and stuff, but then Hey, that was extra.

Zoe:

protein.

Zoe:

So let's go.

Mike:

Yeah, You never know.

Mike:

Maybe, maybe weevils were good at staving off scurvy until they discovered

Mike:

that lemons were quite good for

Zoe:

cookies were invented in America.

Zoe:

apparently.

Mike:

Really.

Mike:

Okay.

Zoe:

That's that's a story for another time.

Mike:

The thing is, I still don't really know what the difference

Mike:

between a cookie and a biscuit is.

Zoe:

Once crispy.

Zoe:

wants soft.

Zoe:

So cookie.

Zoe:

Generally the thing is though, again, I think the UK us flip is different

Zoe:

as well, so we would set a biscuit for us is something that is crisp and dry

Zoe:

and

Zoe:

you bite it and it

Mike:

will

Mike:

get

Zoe:

soft if you dunk it.

Zoe:

Yeah.

Zoe:

And It kind of crunches, Whereas an a cookie is.

Zoe:

bigger And although it might be crispy on the outside, it tends to be a bit

Zoe:

softer.

Zoe:

Whereas obviously it's like, it's, it's more name, language.

Zoe:

Over there a cookie

Mike:

is generally what we would call a

Zoe:

a biscuit.

Zoe:

And what they say is a

Zoe:

biscuit

Mike:

is more like a dumpling, isn't it?

Zoe:

Or is it like a, like a scone?

Mike:

Yeah.

Mike:

Something like between a dumpling and a scone, I think.

Mike:

Cause they have like biscuits and gravy, which yeah, if you did that over here,

Mike:

you wouldn't put gravy on custard creams.

Zoe:

Oh my,

Zoe:

But also the grave is different as well, Cause

Zoe:

that looks, it

Zoe:

looks more like Curry sauce.

Zoe:

or sometimes It's Sometimes it's almost white and it just looks like vomit.

Zoe:

And I'm like, I don't want to add, I'm sorry.

Zoe:

I'm so sorry.

Zoe:

I'm sure

Zoe:

it's delicious.

Zoe:

And actually sometimes I

Zoe:

do just make myself like dumplings and put gravy with them,

Zoe:

which I'm sure

Zoe:

is quite similar

Zoe:

the same sort of thing.

Zoe:

But

Mike:

But over

Mike:

a gravy is brown.

Mike:

And preferably if I get my way thick, like sludge

Zoe:

not lumpy though.

Mike:

not not, lumpy,

Zoe:

with onions in Yum.

Mike:

like you should be able to stand a spoon up in it and put it that way

Zoe:

there's no wonder we get through So, many gravy granules.

Zoe:

Oh

Zoe:

my God.

Mike:

mental No, it was, it was the reason we got through so much gravy before was

Mike:

because I had completely misread the instructions and thought, it said, put

Mike:

four tablespoons, heaped tablespoons.

Zoe:

that that was the

Mike:

was four heaped teaspoons.

Mike:

And I've now I've since corrected.

Mike:

So actually the gravy we had last night was

Zoe:

that was good.

Zoe:

Cause I did think to myself, This isn't,

Mike:

could've been thicker for me, but

Zoe:

isn't lumpy like it was before.

Zoe:

I

Mike:

like to be able to cut my gravy.

Zoe:

Oh, that should be fair.

Zoe:

I like fit gravy.

Zoe:

It's the skin that you get on the top that I'm just like,

Mike:

you don't like anything with skin

Zoe:

not custard gravy.

Zoe:

baked beans.

Zoe:

I just know

Mike:

And he said anything with a source that congeals

Zoe:

oh,

Mike:

actually thought about it before.

Mike:

And I, I can't think of a positive connotation of congealing other than blood

Mike:

forming a scab, which is meant to heal

Mike:

you Yes.

Mike:

But other than that, there is no good version of the word congeal.

Zoe:

If you can think of a good, good reason to congeal apart

Zoe:

from a scab, Hey, let us know.

Zoe:

Oh, cause just, just know.

Zoe:

but then some people really like the skin on custard and the skin on milk.

Zoe:

And the skin on I'm

Mike:

And when you think about like creme Burley in theory, the

Mike:

top of that is just the skin,

Zoe:

no, it's not, no, it's not the top of a creme relay.

Zoe:

You sprinkled sugar on and you burn it.

Zoe:

So it

Zoe:

becomes

Zoe:

caramelized

Mike:

on it.

Mike:

I thought you just, you just taught blowtorch the top of the

Mike:

cranberry lake and it hardened

Zoe:

no, no.

Zoe:

You sprinkle sugar on it.

Zoe:

And you blow torch it to make that crystal like to melt into like, like crackly

Zoe:

crackly.

Zoe:

Goodness.

Mike:

Yes,

Zoe:

Hey ma'am you want to say hello?

Mike:

she just did.

Zoe:

Yeah, but it went well, she was looking at shops.

Mike:

Right.

Mike:

So

Zoe:

that

Zoe:

was.

Zoe:

really, really interesting.

Zoe:

love.

Zoe:

And I think

Mike:

those And there's so much more to it and yeah, we'll watch

Mike:

the show, which is, like I say, it's kind of hilarious prime watch style

Mike:

reconstruction of what happened.

Mike:

But also, like I say, I've got the book and I will sit down and read

Mike:

it all at some point, I think maybe.

Zoe:

anybody actually read it?

Zoe:

If they have let us know,

Mike:

Cause, cause one thing I'm not sure of is why it's called

Mike:

the vertical plane, but who knows?

Mike:

Maybe the book

Zoe:

I don't know

Mike:

it.

Mike:

Who knows?

Zoe:

Okay.

Zoe:

I want to know, because We've now done two, like two episodes

Zoe:

with Poltergeist activity.

Zoe:

Cause we have infield And now you've done this one,

Zoe:

I want

Zoe:

to know,

Mike:

sorry, the cat is desperate to be involved in today's show.

Zoe:

only, just now woken up.

Zoe:

It's cause it's teatime.

Zoe:

Isn't it.

Zoe:

So

Zoe:

have you

Zoe:

Ever experienced a Poltergeist or random movement in your home I am intrigued.

Mike:

stacks of tins of beans.

Zoe:

Yes.

Zoe:

Who's been stacking your beans.

Mike:

you know, like I say, on the show, they had various items stacked

Mike:

up in an incredibly improbable way.

Zoe:

Yeah.

Zoe:

I mean my sister has experienced a book moving from the middle of her bed.

Zoe:

Like she had a book on her bed in the middle of a double bed.

Zoe:

And when she went to look for it, it wasn't there.

Zoe:

And when she found it, it was under the bed in the, middle.

Mike:

well, my mother used to tell a story of when she worked at a place

Mike:

called healing manner, which is healing is the little village near where

Mike:

I grew up, where I went to school.

Mike:

And my mother worked at the Manor house as a cook and kind of general person

Mike:

orderly, I dunno what you would call them?

Mike:

Um No, not a housekeeper.

Mike:

There was, there was a housekeeper there, but she was part of the cooking

Mike:

staff, but also did other bits,

Zoe:

kitchen staff.

Zoe:

Then

Mike:

but apparently the place was haunted.

Mike:

And she said that not only did she apparently one of the ghosts was

Mike:

quite helpful because there was, there was a couple of goes to two or

Mike:

three, I think, possibly, but there was one that they had a name for.

Mike:

And I can't remember the name of the ghost.

Mike:

No, it was a male name.

Mike:

I can't remember what it was, but apparently he would try and

Mike:

help while they were cooking.

Mike:

And my mom swore to me that one time she would, she was making a

Mike:

dessert and turned around and said, oh, where are the strawberries?

Mike:

Where are the strawberries?

Mike:

And the, the bag of strawberries slid themselves along the counter to.

Mike:

Now I have no idea or not if that's true, but she told it as a true story.

Mike:

And she also said that one of the other cooks once caught sight of this

Mike:

guy in the mirror and her hair turned white and apparently she would never

Mike:

ever tell anybody what she had seen.

Mike:

So there's a possible, true ghost story from

Mike:

I

Zoe:

want

Zoe:

to listen to some ghost stories, send me some ghost stories, please.

Zoe:

Yeah.

Zoe:

so how are they going to send, me ghost stories?

Zoe:

Mike,

Zoe:

tell me, tell

Zoe:

me

Mike:

by various

Zoe:

pigeon.

Zoe:

No, I hate

Mike:

messages, various methods easiest way is to email

Mike:

stories of strangers@gmail.com.

Zoe:

we've also got a Facebook page.

Zoe:

Haven't

Mike:

We do

Zoe:

got to

Mike:

facebook.com/stories of strangeness after we've just talked about Lifelog

Mike:

and all that, but yeah, it's on there.

Mike:

Yeah, basically shows your preference and, and also to the

Mike:

world, instagram.com/stories and strangeness is us.

Mike:

And we post stuff on there as well.

Mike:

I will post some of the pictures of the BBC microcomputer that you can

Mike:

see that the stuff being stacked up in the corner of the room and

Mike:

Debbie sitting at the computer

Zoe:

And we've got a website,

Mike:

we do it stories of strangeness.com, which we put all our episodes on there.

Mike:

So you can listen to them directly on the website and we put more

Mike:

information and all the show notes and bits and pieces on there too.

Zoe:

cool.

Zoe:

If they want more content, what can they do?

Mike:

So if you would like more content, you can sign up for our Patrion.

Mike:

The basic level is a pound a month, which you can sign up for.

Mike:

And we will give you a shout out on the show and say, thank you

Zoe:

that doesn't get you more content like.

Mike:

know, for more content, you need to sign up for three pounds a month, which

Mike:

is still basically the price of a coffee.

Mike:

So for three pounds a month, you get outtakes, you get minisodes

Mike:

and you get time-lapse videos of the art we've done for the show.

Mike:

And recently I also uploaded a burp super cut of all the burps that I've cut out of

Mike:

other episodes, which is horrifically bad.

Zoe:

Oh God, Don't

Mike:

Don't listen to it.

Mike:

Don't

Zoe:

actually, there's actually a couple of maxi.

Zoe:

sodas in there

Zoe:

as well,

Mike:

isn't

Mike:

it There is.

Mike:

Yeah.

Zoe:

kind of went a bit

Mike:

and if you want it to a taster of what our Patrion content is like,

Mike:

there is actually a free minisode that anybody can log onto Patrion

Mike:

and listen to about Erwin Saunders, the pixie hunter on YouTube, which is

Mike:

still available for you to listen to.

Zoe:

And, there's

Zoe:

also another way

Zoe:

that you can support us and

Zoe:

get a

Zoe:

treat for yourself, you know, treat

Zoe:

yourself we've

Zoe:

got a red bubble account We do.

Zoe:

and you just need to look up is that what you and Mike, all one word and

Zoe:

you can find our logo on all kinds of crazy stuff, along with a, load of

Zoe:

other random drawings that we have done.

Mike:

Yep, absolutely.

Zoe:

And.

Zoe:

I think you've already had your fun fact with your last days in September.

Zoe:

So sorry.

Zoe:

If you did have a birthday in September in 1752 maybe get in contact with us

Zoe:

because we'd really like to talk to you.

Mike:

if you're still around from 1750 to, we'd definitely like to talk to you.

Mike:

You probably the S the, the, the come to St.

Mike:

Germain, which is another episode, I'm sure at some

Zoe:

cheeky

Mike:

There were also a couple of other ways you can support the show.

Mike:

One is to tell your friends, family, colleagues, vicar, priest,

Mike:

whatever anybody you think would be interested in the show, tell

Mike:

them about it, get them to listen.

Mike:

That's how we grow the show.

Mike:

And if we grow the show, we can put out more episodes for you.

Mike:

And the other way is you could leave it as a review.

Mike:

The best place to leave as a review is on iTunes.

Mike:

However, if you'd rather reviewers on pod bean or pocket casts or overcast

Mike:

or podcast addict, or whatever the app is of your choice, you can do that too.

Mike:

And we will respond to all reviews.

Zoe:

Yes.

Mike:

Fantastic content though.

Mike:

Well done.

Zoe:

Yes.

Mike:

And he just remains to say apologies for our cat and neighbors, but they're

Mike:

out of our control, both of them.

Mike:

And

Zoe:

much like your bead.

Mike:

yes, don't have nightmares.

Mike:

We'll do, I don't know.

Mike:

Maybe you like nightmares, who knows and that's it.

Zoe:

we've lost it.

Zoe:

Haven't

Zoe:

we it's gone.

Mike:

Yeah.

Mike:

The plot is lost, right?

Mike:

So it just remains.

Mike:

Thank you for listening.

Mike:

We really appreciate it.

Mike:

Bye-bye.