Frommer's Author David McElhenny joined Pauline Frommer to discuss the culinary specialties of different Japanese regions, walking vacation opportunities that mirror the Camino de Santiago experience, ways to experience Japan's sizzling pop culture, and some strategies for saving money on a Japanese vacation.

Takeaways:

• Transportation in country is one of the highest costs travelers face, but buying a Japan Rail Pass may save you money. A look at its pros and cons.
• Accommodations can also take a bite out of the budget, so we discussed what capsule hotels are like, plus the more conventional but still affordable options most travelers prefer.
• Japan's culinary offerings are diverse and budget-friendly. We took a look at convenience store meals, Tokyo's Ramen scene, and the foods eaten in a region of Japan that has the most centenarians.
• Visiting off-the-beaten path Japan will get you out into some stunning nature areas, and into communities that really need the tourist business.

The Frommer's Travel Podcast was named one of the 13 best for travel by the New York Times. It is hosted by Pauline Frommer, the Publisher of the Frommer's guidebooks and Frommers.com, with new episodes issued weekly.

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Welcome to the Fromer Travel Show.

I'm your host, Pauline Fromer, and we are celebrating today because for the first time in over a decade, we have a new Fromer's Japan book out.

In the interim, we had done a book just on Western Honshu, which is the part of Japan that most visitors go to Tokyo, Kyoto and the like.

But we realized that the entire nation deserved better coverage, and so we went on a big search to find the best author for that job.

We found him.

He is on the phone right now.

His name is David McElhenney.

Did I pronounce your name right?

Almost, but I wouldn't worry about.

Everyone butchers it.

It's McElhenny.

McElhenny.

I've mostly talked to you and said just David.

So, yeah, most people do.

They say the name and they avoid it.

Right.

And I think probably people can hear from your accent that you are not a Japanese native, that you come from Northern Ireland.

Correct?

Yes.

Yeah.

If the name didn't give it away, I'm sure the accent will.

Yeah.

From Belfast, originally.

So how did you come to be what I consider one of the finest Japan experts I've ever encountered?

Thank you very much.

That's making me blush.

Well, it was sort of a spontaneous decision.

I was traveling a lot in Southeast Asia, really, like that part of the world.

I lived in China for six months as a teacher.

I'm using inverted commas there because I didn't do an awful lot of teaching, but that was my official, official role.

And then I lived in Australia for a year, which was fine, but I was just kind of doing odd jobs on, like, building sites, worked in call centers, things like that.

But I kind of felt drawn back to Asia, and I'd never been to Japan, but it was always somewhere culturally.

They kind of fascinated me.

So I decided I would move there for a year in principle to teach English, and that turned into two, which turned into three, and so on.

I just kind of fell in love with the place as I thought I might.

So, yeah, that's the very contracted version.

Yeah.

And it's been seven years now that you've been in and around Japan.

Seven years, yeah, Seven years, yeah.

And writing about it extensively.

And as a writer, I don't think this will come as a surprise to anybody.

You do not have funding that is unlimited.

Right.

And Japan can be a very, very expensive country.

Well, it's less expensive now because the Japanese yen is much weaker against many world currencies, including the US dollar.

But still, it is an overall Expensive place.

So what are some of the ways that you, in the book and in your daily life, talking with pals, tell people they can save money in Japan?

Yeah, I think you kind of touched on there.

It's like expensive is a relative term.

I mean, Japan certainly was more expensive than it is now.

But I think people always want to try and save money where they can.

And there are certain things in the country which, which are still quite pricey.

Like I would say the number one biggest expense.

Well, the two biggest expenses are accommodation and transport.

It's perhaps not unique to Japan, but with transport specifically, what's expensive are the bullet trains which people will obviously use to get around the country because it's more convenient than flying.

It is more expensive than flying, but it's more convenient.

And I think people see the bullet train as like a travel experience in and of itself, you know, so.

Well, I felt that way when I did it.

I mean there is that moment where it just zooms out of the station.

I've always heard about the Concorde when that was flying.

And there was this moment where you were pressed back into your seat and then you suddenly rocketed forward and the bullet train almost felt like that.

I mean the speed was, was.

I could feel it.

Yeah.

Now that you mention it, you do get that sensation the first time you take the bullet train.

But it's weird, you know, like anything, when you start to do it quite regularly, you sort of forget about that.

Yeah, it's an experience in and of itself.

So people will almost certainly use the bullet train as their primary method for getting around the country.

A good way to save money on that is through the JR pass, the Japan Rail Pass, which you have to get before you come to the country.

It basically gives you like a one use ticket that you can or one all encompassing ticket that you can use on all of the different bullet trains that you'll use and local trains provided they're operated by Japan Rail.

Now it gets a little bit confusing in the cities because sometimes they're.

A train might be run by a private operator or you know, might be a metro line, which I think is sort of run by the city.

But in general it means that you have one ticket that you can use on the majority of trains that you're going to get in the country.

Rather than like kind of going into the specifics of pricing, I would say the, the best way to think about it is like you.

You can go online to the Japan Rail Pass fare calculator, kind of taught up the journeys you think you're probably going to do see how much that's going to cost and then just cross reference that with the price of the 7, 14 or 21 day ticket.

Sometimes, you know, the 7 day ticket might be a little bit more expensive than the amount of trains you want to get in a seven day period.

I mean, people who are thinking about going to Japan might have read that there was a big price hike in the JR Pass recently.

It was a 69% price hike, which is yikes.

Yeah, it is pretty yikes.

But to put that into perspective, it was the first time they had increased the price since like the 80s or something.

So.

And I think it was also kind of in line with the fact that the yen had already weakened by that stage and they were trying to capitalize on tourists increased purchasing power.

So I would say from a tourist perspective, I still think it's like a good value pass, but you can obviously arbitrate on that yourself depending on where you plan on going.

Right.

And it's, and it's a price we should note that the Japanese themselves do not have access to.

This pass is only for tourists, which, you know, is an interesting thing.

Usually there's something that we think of as the tourist tax where tourists are charged more.

This has always been a very generous program, I thought, on behalf of the railroad.

Yeah, that's true.

I mean I've, I've always, I mean recently actually I lost my visa for the first time.

So the next time I go back to Japan, I will be there as a tourist.

But it means that I've never had access to this past myself.

And I've always, always been jealous when people come to visit and they're doing these, you know, kind of wild, you know, trips all around the country and any time I join them I have to.

Yeah, pay the, pay the standard fare.

So yeah, it is, it's great.

I mean there are, I would say tourists are taxed in other ways, but when it comes to riding the bullet train.

Yeah, they, they certainly get a good deal.

Well, before I let you go on that, how are, how are tourists taxed in other ways, would you say?

There's been quite a lot in the news over the past couple years about over tourism in Japan and particular, I guess what one good example to use is himeji Castle, which is probably the most beautiful castle in Japan.

It's largely viewed as that.

Like, it's just really stunning.

It's in this city that's between Kobe and Hiroshima.

A lot of people go to Himeji just to see the castle.

You know, the.

I think it was the city mayor I'm trying to remember now, but someone from officialdom was basically trying to make tourists pay five times the amount that locals would pay.

Wow.

Which in some respects it's like, well, that seems like a huge hike.

But at the same time, if I think if the purpose of it is to only entice people who really want to go and see the castle, rather than people who are walking past going, I'll go in, because it's only whatever, 500, 1,000 yen to see it.

I think if it's used in that way, and therefore it does manage the crowds a little bit, I don't have much of a problem with it.

But at the same time, you know, there is the moral aspect of, well, if we start levying that everywhere and tourists have to pay crazy money for everything, you know, that's its own issue.

But that's just one example.

And I think some restaurants were floating.

In fact, I think some restaurants actually did implement that, but different prices on.

The English language menu or how did it work?

Well, some of them were caught sneakily doing that, unfortunately.

But I think there were some restaurants in smaller towns and stuff that basically said locals will only pay this price and non locals will pay a bit more.

It certainly hasn't caught fire and spread all around the country, but there are little stories like that.

And as there is some growing kind of unrest in certain corners of the country about the amount of foreigners coming in on a yearly basis and the numbers increasing each year, then stories like that will be in the news.

But I don't.

I don't expect that to be implemented on a.

On a broad scale anytime soon.

Interesting.

All right, we'll go back to saving money.

So you save money by getting the bullet train pass or the train pass, which covers a lot of different trains.

You also need to save money on accommodations, but there are hotels or hotel types that don't exist.

Other places like capsule hotels, do you recommend those for visitors and can you give a definition of what those are, or is that really just for Japanese businessmen?

Well, that's how they started.

They were kind of advertised as these.

Yeah, kind of stopover places for Japanese businessmen.

Like if you go to some of the old ones, they still have, like corded telephones and you know, stuff that a businessman might need, you know, when he's overnighting.

They're still used by younger tourists, I would say.

I don't mind them on occasion as like maybe to like show someone.

Like I see it as more of a novelty thing.

Like I, personally, I wouldn't book one myself typically if I was going somewhere.

But it's worth seeing.

I mean we should define what these are before we go further.

Can, can you give a, a description?

Yeah, I mean, I guess the best visual aid I can give is like, you know, imagine like a morgue was a hotel.

It's got these kind of like lines rather than pull out drawers.

They're just sort of like little kind of cubby holes that you enter into and you have the entire space is, is just a bed with maybe like a side shelf.

No, you can't stand up.

Maybe there's like a side shelf and there'll be a charging station or whatever.

And down the hall somewhere will be the locker area where you can put your bag and all that kind of stuff.

So is there, is it curtained off or is there more of a solid door to your cubby?

It depends.

A lot of them would have kind of like, you know, pull down blinds which you sort of hook at the bottom.

I mean they are quite.

They're private in a sense.

It's sort of like a hostel room, but a bit more private.

That also means it has the attended noise that you get in a hostel room but times by perhaps, you know, a factor of 10 because maybe there's 40 people sleeping in the area.

So you hear every, you know, snore and fart and burp and you know, rustling pillow and all the rest of it.

But yeah, I mean, I guess it's kind of like an interesting thing to maybe stay in.

They're cheap, like certainly cheaper than most other accommodation options.

If you've got one night in a place like I think, you know and you want to check it out, why not give it a go, right?

You know, what's the worst that could happen kind of thing.

If you are claustrophobic or you really like, you know, home comforts and things like that, maybe give them a miss.

Another thing actually is a lot of them have like, they're basically designed for one night stays so that if you're between the usual checkout and check in time, you would have to take all of your stuff out of it and back in again.

Oh wow.

Which is super inconvenient.

That kind of defeats the purpose of staying in a hotel to begin with.

Right, right.

So, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I. I see them more as, like, kind of, you know, curiosities than something I'd like to stay in with any regularity.

But, you know, to each their own.

Yeah.

One of the things that surprisingly, isn't expensive in Japan, I found when I've been there, I've been there a couple of times, is food.

You can get very decent food in convenience stores.

You can get a wonderful meal for less than the equivalent of $10 at a noodle place.

That, to me, is not one of the major expenses.

Were you going to give another tip for saving money?

Did I cut you off with the capsule hotels?

No, I mean, I guess just to finish off on the accommodation point.

It's like a very sort of brief point.

But there are some really nice chain hotels you can stay in.

Like, one of the most famous ones is Apa or Apa, another one called My Stays.

And they're like just basic, you know, chain hotels, but done well.

You know, I would say they're.

They're pretty comfortable.

The amenities are quite good, and it's often a good way to cut costs rather than staying in maybe a nice kind of boutique accommodation or something that's a bit fancier in one of the more popular areas.

But, yeah, on.

On food.

Yeah, I mean, I completely agree.

I think Japanese food is, for me, it's.

It's probably the greatest food culture on earth.

There are certainly a couple that could give it a run for its money.

And I'm probably biased given the amount of time I've spent there.

But part of what impressed me about it is the, you know, when I moved there, I thought it was like sushi and ramen.

I didn't really know that was kind of like the extent of my Japanese culinary knowledge.

But there's amazing depth and complexity.

And like, every region will have a mei butsu, which is sort of like a regional specialty.

Usually it's some kind of food.

It might just be like noodles made a certain way or a certain type of, you know, pounded rice cake, or maybe it's like a certain fish or, you know, beef that they do a certain way.

Often they'll have multiple, you know, specialities.

So that aspect of it, really, of it is really cool, as is the fact that you can get good food at every price range.

So like you said, you can go to, you know, some of the best ramen shops you'll ever eat in in your life, and you're paying 10 bucks, maybe current exchange probably less for a bowl of ramen.

That's a big, hearty plate of food, you know, that's been simmering for 14 hours or something like that.

You know, it's like, it's incredible really, what you can get for very little money.

Then, of course, you've got the super expensive sushi restaurants, you've got, you know, all that kind of stuff.

Yeah.

And in Tokyo alone, you know, there's like 300 plus Michelin stars across however many restaurants.

Might even be more than that.

Might even be 500 across 300 restaurants.

I can't remember exactly, but it's a lot.

It's the most in the world anyway.

So you've got a lot of stuff at that end of the spectrum.

And like you mentioned, even the convenience store foods, like in, in the UK and from my experience in America, you know, if you went to 711 or something like that, if they have a hot, hot food counter, the food's usually pretty bad.

Oh, terrible.

Being charitable.

Yeah, yeah.

Get you sick bad.

Yeah, yeah.

Whereas in Japan, that food is obviously, it's very cheap, you know, because of the, the type of food that is.

But like the hot chicken, actually really good.

Yeah.

The sandwiches are nice.

They might be filled with msg, but, you know, you're never going to get the healthiest food in a, in a convenience store to begin with.

But, Right.

Like they're famous to the point that there's loads of YouTube vlogs and stuff that cover the kind of subculture of Japanese convenience store food.

So if you're interested, it's worth going to check some of them out.

You know, it's like they do fruit sandwiches and all these, you know, strange flavors of Kit Kats and things like that.

And yeah, like.

And they're all open 24 7, so a great place to stop late at night, you know, if you need a.

Need a bite to eat before you go to bed or whatever.

Now, in terms of regional specialties, going back to that briefly, is there a region you think that has the best food in Japan or the most interesting?

Wow.

Yeah, that's a good question.

I mean, the boring answer is probably Tokyo.

Just because it's got, I think, the greatest, it's got the most innovation in food.

Like, Japan is quite steadfastly against change when it comes to cultural traditions.

Whereas if you look at like the ramen space in Tokyo, there's lots of really innovative things going on.

Lots of the kind of best modern fine dining restaurants there are not these sort of super serious, you know, have no fun, eat the food, buy say thank you and then get the hell out of here type places which used to be like the entire kind of upper end of the, the dining market in Japan.

In Tokyo there's a lot more kind of like very homely places that are still serving food that's like 1, 2 Michelin star quality, you know.

So that's the kind of boring answer I'm trying to think of, you know, something that's maybe a bit more interesting.

Oh, Kyotango is a cool area.

It's, it's part of Kyoto prefecture, but if you go to the kind of the coastal area, so I'm just called Kyoto by the sea actually.

And they produce a lot of foods there with koji, which is the fungal mold that, that's used in like sake production and stuff.

And it has I think more than 100 enzymes that facilitate digestion.

So there's lots of really good, like miso, soy sauce, rice wine vinegar.

They produce a lot of that stuff there.

And then obviously they serve it with the different rice noodle, you know, dishes, etc.

Fish that they make in the region.

But that fungal mokouji is supposedly really beneficial to longevity.

So Okinawa is usually the most famous place for centenarians or people that live beyond 100 in Japan.

And the oldest guy that ever lived actually lived there as well.

He was 116 when he died.

Born.

Oh my goodness.

Yeah, he lived through three centuries.

Kind of amazing, right?

Yeah.

So yeah, a lot of the locals, if you speak to like, you know, local producers and stuff down there, like food producers, they'll always credit koji as like the kind of the, I don't know, the, the elixir of, you know, long life or whatever.

Right.

And just as an aside, if anyone wants to visit that region, there's a woman called Junko Hamilton who's Japanese, grew up in the Kyoto area, but she lived in Ireland for 10 years and she runs cooking classes and can kind of explain all this stuff to you and fluent English and yeah, you'll get to cook foods with koji and try different koji made products.

The restaurant called Table.

Table.

Table is the name of the restaurant, but I think it's T A B L E T A B E L or that's the other way around.

I can't remember, but it's in the book.

If you buy, if you buy the book, you'll find it.

Get the book.

Get the book.

That's what we're here to say.

Now, you were talking a Moment ago about YouTube, YouTubers doing convenience store food videos, which brings us to the pop culture side of Japan.

You have a beautiful phrase in the book.

You say it's their soft power basically that the whole world has been taken over by anime and manga and other Japanese incredibly creative ways of seeing the world.

It used to be that people went to Japan strictly to visit temples and have kaiseki meals and indulge in traditional Japanese culture.

But now a lot of people go there to see what's happening on the cutting edge, what's happening in youth culture, what's happening in these new artistic expressions.

So if people are interested in that side of Japan, where do they go?

What do they do?

Yeah, it's an interesting trend, isn't it?

I mean, I'm kind of of that generation, you know, I'm 31, so I'm that generation that grew up playing Pokemon, you know, getting Pokemon cards in Yu Gi.

Oh, all that kind of stuff.

So I was certainly influenced that by that stuff myself.

So I get, I do get the, the incentive to travel to Japan to kind of see that side of it.

Like a lot of things, Tokyo is sort of the beating heart of that, particularly an area called Akihabara, which to anyone who has done any research about like pop culture Japan will have come across that place.

It's, it's the Mecca, you know, and it's just a cool area in general.

You know, it's like a big thoroughfare, just neon lights, you know, on either side and filled with arcades and retro, retro game stores, all that kind of stuff.

Another area of Tokyo that's quite famous, particularly for women is called Otome Road, which literally means maiden Road.

And it's in Ikebukuro, which is sort of north west ish of the city.

And it's particularly famous for doujinshi, which are like basically fanzines.

So the sort of thing that if it was, if it was in America or the uk, it would, these things would fall out of every copyright law of the legislature.

Like they're, they're, they're completely illegal.

But loads of doujinshi artists are really talented, so the industry just kind of lets it pass.

And then sometimes they co opt those.

Before we go further, fan zines.

So these are magazines made by fans in the style of more Famous artists.

Is that the way to put it?

Yeah, I think so.

I guess the.

Yeah, I guess that's how I would put it.

Yeah.

And often you might get, for example, a character from one famous series and a character for another famous series, and the fanzine will be those two characters in some kind of romantic relationship or whatever.

I see.

So this is the area where they're produced.

But why would a visitor go there?

Would they experience any of this culture there?

So this is the area where the.

Yeah, the shops are that sell those.

Oh, I see.

I see.

Yeah.

So it's famous for.

For that, actually, and also for cosplay.

So, you know, lots of women especially, again, would go and buy costumes of their favorite anime and manga heroines.

And then in that same area in Ikebukuro, there's a Halloween cosplay festival.

So if you're there that time of year and you're into cosplay, that's the place to go to both get your.

Get your gear on to flaunt it on the street, I guess.

Wow.

So thousands of people in crazy costumes all over the place.

Yeah, so, yeah.

Yeah, it is.

You know, it's like there's obviously huge songs.

I mean, even the word cosplay, like, we kind of think of it as like an English word, but it was actually a Japanese portmanteau of two English words, like kosuple, you know.

Yeah.

Which I already discovered that not that long ago.

And I was.

What does cost mean, though?

I'm not sure.

They've taken the English words costume and play and just squeeze them together into their own words.

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

I didn't know that.

I just thought it meant, like, duo play, like co play.

But no, it's costume play.

Oh, yeah.

That's an interesting way to think of it etymologically, actually.

Yeah.

I guess I hadn't.

I just hadn't questioned it.

It's like, you know, when you hear and see a word enough, you just.

It just is that word.

It was only probably about a year or so ago myself that I realized it was of Japanese origin.

Japanese English origin, if that makes sense.

Yeah, Very interesting.

And I have a dear friend, Mike Foster, who is a professor of Japanese mythology, and he's written a whole bunch of books on the fact that we are seeing mythology being created in real time in Japan.

You know, we think of mythology as being something that maybe was part of religion eons ago and is something in the past.

And in Japan, he feels that what's going on with this very intense Culture around what we'd call cartoons is actually a rejiggering of the mythological hierarchies of the Japanese mind.

Yeah, that's.

Yeah, that's interesting.

I mean, a lot of these places, you know, in the same vein, they do feel like temples to Japanese pop culture to different series.

I mean, a good example actually to throw in another one is Kyoto.

Just outside Kyoto, they recently opened the Nintendo Museum.

It's just the first sort of museum of its kind.

And it really does feel like a.

Almost like a religious, you know, ode to this very storied Japanese video game maker, console, developer.

And it's a really cool experience that getting a ticket for it is a nightmare.

You've got to go through this sort of convoluted lottery system and then call a Japanese number and then you get your ticket sent by QR code.

Oh my goodness.

A couple days before.

Yeah, it's, it's a pain.

But the, the one advantage of that is that they have very controlled numbers that can be in the museum at any one time, which obviously benefits the user experience.

And also in the, the main top floor, which is kind of all the archives of all the old games and peripherals and box arts and destruction manuals, all that kind of stuff.

You can't take any photos in there, which I think is great because otherwise it would just be selfie sticks everywhere and influencers blocking all of the displays and all that kind of stuff.

That's not to be sports influencers, but, you know.

Yeah, I've experienced that enough times in places like that that I think that's what would have, that's what would have happened.

So before you go on from that, so it sounds like a really difficult process.

Is it all in Japanese or can Americans.

Can non Japanese speakers go to this museum?

Yeah, yeah, it's an, it's an English.

Like, I think it's kind of created as the experience for the wider J tourism market, I would say as a lot of modern museums and things are built with that in mind.

So, yeah, very, very approachable for English speakers.

And as is the, the ticketing system is all in English as well.

It's, it's convoluted more from like a design perspective rather than a language perspective.

If, I mean for anyone listening who's got any affiliation for Nintendo, I do recommend going because it's a, it's a cool experience.

Cool.

Okay, now at the very beginning of our talk, you brought up the fact that Japan is getting over touristed, that there are certain areas that are just too Damn crowded to be as enjoyable as they used to be.

And I know you took it very seriously, wanting as a guidebook writer, to show that other parts of the country that people don't think of going to are as intriguing, as rewarding to go to.

So let's talk about some of the places that people don't think of going to, but really should.

Sure, yeah.

I think you've got to strike that balance, don't you?

You know, if lots of people, especially if they're going to Japan for the first time, they're going to want to go to Tokyo, Kyoto, probably Osaka, maybe Hiroshima, maybe Hakone, something like that.

So you've absolutely got to cater to that.

But I think also there's some responsibility to kind of show people that Japan is actually a much bigger country than that golden route as it's known.

And furthermore, lots of the places, especially smaller places in Japan, are suffering from depopulation and economic malaise and all that kind of stuff.

So if you go and visit some of the smaller towns around the country, every dollar yen you spend there actually has a bit of an impact.

So from an ethical standpoint as well, I think it's good to try and vary things a little bit when you travel, but, I mean, it's up to the traveler in question.

My job is not to tell anybody what to do.

Sure.

From an ethical standpoint.

And would it also be fair to say, from a welcoming standpoint, are they excited to see tourists in a way that maybe folks in Kyoto and Tokyo won't be?

Yeah, for sure.

Just to take an example, from Niyodo in the center of Kochi Prefecture on Shikoku island, they kind of do need you.

You know, like every penny you spend there is, like, actually beneficial to the town in a way that, you know, tour buses coming into certain places and just, you know, buying food from a convenience store and drinks from a vending machine.

And the.

The money kind of doesn't really go to any, like, independent people living in certain areas, if that's kind of the method by which you travel.

And to come back to that, that place in the Odo, just to give a bit more.

Yeah.

Tell us about context as to what it's like.

So it's right up in the.

The heart of the Kochi Prefecture in the mountains.

It's this sort of thundering gorge.

And on this little precipice in the gorge, there's a guy called Ken Mukai.

He's got a Japanese name, but he's actually from California.

I'm not sure what his ancestry is, but he grew up as a.

Grew up in California.

He taught as a science teacher in the public school system there, and then decided to move to one of the most rural places you could find in Japan to brew beer.

So he's got this little tiny microbrewery and tap room literally perched right over this gorge.

And the water in the gorge itself is called Neodo Blue, which is.

It's kind of like known as that because it's got this, like, very clear, very clean water.

Like the artesian springs, I think, are, like, neutral.

So basically gives him a canvas to create any beer he wants from it.

When I visited him, he was telling me they have like a residence magazine.

They get sent out.

But since he's moved there, the number of residents per kilometer squared has dropped by like four, I think, from like 17 to 13, something like that.

Because they get these figures in the residence magazine I mentioned, and he's named one of his beers 18, the number 18 because he's trying to get the population per square kilometer back up to that number.

So, yeah, going somewhere like that, you know, visiting these places, speaking to these people.

There's an end just across the bridge, which is at a former elementary school run by the former students.

And you kind of get a sense that, like, oh, yeah, me being a tourist here is actually having a positive impact rather than a negative one.

Sure, yeah.

Or just kind of a scourge.

You go there through the brewery.

You go there to see the incredible, gorgeous.

But I mean, maybe I'm a selfish person.

I think that most people won't travel just to be good.

You know, it's their time off.

So why else do you go there?

What are the other attractions?

What do you see there and do there that you won't find elsewhere?

Yeah, no, that's.

That's a good question.

A lot of people would sort of raise their eyebrows at that, I guess.

I mean, first of all, it's a stunning area to drive through.

So if you're able to rent a car.

Granted, not everyone is, but if you're able to rent a car, it's really nice driving through that area.

There's lots of, like, canyoning activities, rafting, lots of outdoor stuff.

You can hike around there.

There are onsen hot springs, so you can go and, you know, relax in a.

In an outdoor hot spring.

So it's more of a.

An outdoors person's Kind of a destination.

But if that appeals to you, or if you feel like I'm traveling quite a lot in the cities, I wouldn't mind taking like 4 days to just go and get completely off GR.

I recommend somewhere like that.

And as I said, that's just one of the examples.

There are other slightly closer to civilization examples of places where your tourism dollars can have more of a positive impact, I would say, on the local communities.

I know also, you know, the Camino de Santiago in Spain has become very, very popular.

It's a walking pilgrimage, basically.

I've heard there's a temple to temple pilgrimage in Japan now that a lot of people are doing.

Do you know about that?

Yeah.

Well, it's interesting you mentioned the, the Camino because it actually has a sister trail in Japan of Wakayama, which is not the one you're referring to, but I'll come to that in a second.

So the one in Wakayama is, I guess the kind of brief version of the story is that it's.

It tells the tale of Japan's first emperor who got lost in these mountains.

And then a three legged crow lands on a branch.

He follows the crow through these mountains and then attacks his enemy with the rising sun at his back.

Wins and finds Japan, basically is what happens.

So his former route essentially is charted by the sister trail which is called the Kumano Koro, which is in Wakayama, quite close to Osaka.

That's actually like a cool one today, which is it doesn't require too much travel away from kind of the main tourism route.

And the one you're referring to is the Shikoku pilgrimage, which.

But before we leave this one, you mentioned the rising sun.

Was this the inspiration for the flag?

Yeah, yeah, basically.

So the rising sun is a sun goddess called Amaterasu, who's one of the main deities in Shinto mythology, Shinto being the sort of predominant national religion there.

Ah, okay.

All right.

Sorry.

Sorry to interrupt you.

No, no, you were talking about the other route.

Yeah, the Shikoku pilgrimage.

So that basically follows the idea.

It's kind of a loose idea, but the idea is that Shikoku island is a mandala.

So like a Buddhist diagram of eternal spiritual truths or something like that.

And there's 88 temples that kind of go around the island sort of in a circle, a little bit into the middle and then back, back out around to where they started.

And they're in honor of a monk known as Kukai or Kobo Daishi.

And he didn't actually establish or build all of those temples.

I think he maybe established some of them, and then this route sort of formed an honor to him.

So lots of people do that, not necessarily because they have any affiliation to.

I think it's Shingon Buddhism, which is quite an esoteric sect of the religion, but just because it's kind of a cool thing to do, you know, it's a good way to disconnect.

Takes about six to eight weeks, which, granted, is longer than the average traveler is going to have in Japan.

Right.

But like the Camino, I guess, you know, you can come and do a week here, two weeks there, you know, split it up whatever way you want.

Maybe you can just pick, like, oh, here's four temples that are a decent enough distance away from each other.

Why don't I just follow that route?

You know, there's no.

There is a prescribed route you can follow, but, you know, of course you can do it whichever way you please.

Like, there are lots of different access points in terms of airports and ferry ports and train stations and things like that.

So you're not.

You don't have to Start at Temple 1 or Temple 88, if that makes sense.

And, like, the Camino, do you have people from all over the world doing this?

So it's a very social activity?

Yeah, very much so.

I've never actually walked it myself, but I've.

The last time I was in Shikoku, I made a point of driving to as much of it as I could, as I could fit in.

And I. I would stop off at various temples and go and sort of accost people and try and ask them questions about why they were doing it.

And, yeah, you do.

You get people from all over the place.

Like, you know, I met an American guy who was.

He'd worked in, like, tech for quite a few years and just decided that he wanted to kind of disconnect, I guess, from the world for a little while.

So he was doing the full thing.

I budgeted about eight weeks for it.

And he said, it's amazing, you know, you.

You walk along the road and.

Because pilgrims often wear the same clothes.

They wear conical straw hats and these white kind of garments and have a stick that people will just stop and maybe give you some money, like, just like a couple hundred yen to get a drink at the next vending machine or something, or maybe they'll give you some fresh produce from their farm.

But he said that the generosity you see from strangers when you're a pilgrim on that trail is, yeah, kind of amazing.

So that's a cool aspect of it.

You know, Japanese people are known for being generous and friendly, and I think they.

They really respect.

On that island, they.

They respect the tradition of the Shikoku pilgrimage.

So they'll always help people out.

And there are inns, you know, and campsites and things.

You can stay out.

There are some rest stops.

I think you can stay in for free.

There are temples that will also give free accommodation.

Interesting.

So it's a whole ecosystem created for the pilgrimage.

Yeah.

And it's still.

It's still not super popular, but it's, I think, becoming popular enough that it's, I guess it's becoming more approachable for non Japanese.

Right.

Tourists to do.

Interesting.

Well, as you can see, David is a wealth of information and he poured it all into Fromer's Japan.

We are so thrilled with the job you did, David.

Thank you so, so much for doing this great book and also for appearing on the Frommer Travel Show.

That was great.

Thank you very much.

And you know, I hope.

Well, I hope people buy it, of course, but I hope if they do that they find a lot of value in it.

You know, it's.

Writing a guidebook is.

Is difficult, but it's a labor of love, you know, in a lot of ways.

You know, you gotta enjoy doing it.

But I think it's turned out well, so I hope people agree.

I know it has your editor, Holly, felt.

It's one of the best books we have in our series.

Oh, that's great.

Many thanks to Holly as well.

Yeah.

All right, that's it for today's show.

I thank you so much for listening.

If you like the show, be sure to give us a nice 5 star rating.

To those who are traveling, may I wish you a hearty bon voyage.

Sour candy on the table.

Lazy afternoons in your sweatpants Watching table.

Well, it feels so far away.

All the channels seem the same.

Trying to remember all the songs we like to play.

Cause those lazy afternoons don't come so frequently these days long And I cannot help but wonder Are you ever coming home?

I like you with your sour candy in the boat house on the lake oh, but I hate, I hate, I hate, I hate, I hate, I hate the way it tastes.

I can't get you off of my.

Mind.

Looking out the window where we spend so much of our time.

Cause I miss the way it bel.

But I guess you can't control those damn cards.

Babe, I know the both of us are happy when we're free.

But would it be so hard to find your freedom here?

With me.