Shownotes
This episode marks a significant milestone as we celebrate our 400th episode. Since our very first recording back in February 2018, so much has changed—from starting with basic equipment in my office to creating the dynamic studio we're in today.
In this episode, we reflect on the journey and evolution of our podcast, from serious legal discussions to casual and fun roundtable talks on crazy news stories.
But onto what they don't teach in law school.
We discuss the real-world topic that uncovers the intersection of media sensationalism and the criminal justice system. Law students Bella Mata, Troy Hendrickson and I explore the captivating case of Luigi and its broader implications within the legal landscape.
From discussing past high-profile cases to understanding the ever-evolving dynamics of courts, justice, and public perception, this episode will challenge what you thought you knew about fairness, justice, and the influence of media on legal proceedings.
Key Moments
00:00 Podcast Milestone: Episode 400 Celebration
05:32 Sensational Trials and Media Impact
07:23 FBI Raids on Trump and Allies
10:53 Surprise Indictment Shocks Defense Attorney
15:14 Lawyer Grandstanding: Egos Over Justice
16:40 Courtroom Strategy for Fair Trial
19:38 Luigi's Dilemma: Villain or Hero?
22:12 "Context Matters in Court Hearings"
27:55 Media Narratives and Legal Ethics
29:49 "Justice System Fairness Debate"
32:35 Demand for Fair Legal Process
Here are some key takeaways -
- Sensationalism vs. Fairness: We examine the impact of media sensationalism on high-profile legal cases and the challenges of ensuring a fair trial amidst public and political scrutiny.
- Managing Media in Legal Cases: I share insights on the importance of effectively communicating with the media, especially during high-publicity cases, to manage public perception and maintain a fair judicial process.
- Complexities of the Justice System: Engaging discussions highlight the complexities and inconsistencies within the justice system, emphasizing that while striving for fairness, real-world application often presents unpredictable challenges.
Submit your questions to www.lawyertalkpodcast.com.
Recorded at Channel 511.
Stephen E. Palmer, Esq. has been practicing criminal defense almost exclusively since 1995. He has represented people in federal, state, and local courts in Ohio and elsewhere.
Though he focuses on all areas of criminal defense, he particularly enjoys complex cases in state and federal courts.
He has unique experience handling and assembling top defense teams of attorneys and experts in cases involving allegations of child abuse (false sexual allegations, false physical abuse allegations), complex scientific cases involving allegations of DUI and vehicular homicide cases with blood alcohol tests, and any other criminal cases that demand jury trial experience.
Steve has unique experience handling numerous high publicity cases that have garnered national attention.
For more information about Steve and his law firm, visit Palmer Legal Defense.
Copyright 2025 Stephen E. Palmer - Attorney At Law
Transcripts
Alright. Steve Palmer here, Lawyer Talk Podcast, and you can check us out at lawyertalkpodcast.com here with another episode of They Don't Teach You That in Law School. And this one's a we'll call it a super special episode because on this day, literally, this day, 02/27/2018, I recorded the first lawyer talk podcast. And this is going way back. I there I the studio didn't exist. I didn't have all the fancy mics. I was up in my office upstairs, and, it was, it was awkward. It was a little bit bizarre, but we got it done.
Steve Palmer [:That was our first podcast 400 episodes later. So today is number 400. To the day in 2025, we are here at the table in the podcast in in our studio podcast realm. And, we've got you guys are I'm I'm sure just gleeed to be part of my four hundredth episode. And it's taken a you know, the the podcast has taken a lot of turns over the years. We've had started with, one of my associates and just me at the table, and then we added somebody, and then we added another person. We we had some fun times. So anybody who's curious about, we took and I took a break at different times during COVID.
Steve Palmer [:But anybody who's curious about the evolution of it, go check out those early episodes. They are really funny. I mean, we used to get lots of it started as sort of like a like a serious legal podcast, then we quickly turned it into fun. Just my buddies and me at the table having fun. We we used to do a news episode. So we we would drop a normal one in the week, and then we would say, I would do a news on Friday. So we would just take it was like strange news stories of the weird, and we would just go around the table talking. I mean, those those were good episodes.
Steve Palmer [:So check them out. I promise you'll like them. And you can get this podcast, by the way, wherever you get podcast, on Apple, on Google, on Spotify. Where else do you get them? YouTube. On you or you can watch watch it on YouTube.
Bella Mata [:You can, like, listen on YouTube.
Steve Palmer [:You can now get podcast feeds on YouTube. Yeah. It shows you what I know. But, you know, since now we're in the modern era, the post COVID, it's funny how much things have changed, because it when we started, video didn't exist. Like, I mean, it would it would have been a huge bridge to cross to to stream these things or or have video. And when we built the studio, we did it, but we didn't, you know, we didn't quite have it all set up. But, anyway, now we do. And and we are gonna, we'll jump right to it because I've been yapping about it too long.
Steve Palmer [:But, this series is they don't teach you that in law school where we take on topics. You guys are law students. We have, Bella Motta. We have Troy Hendrickson. Both are now working upstairs in the law firm. Not not both for me, but other people we share space with. So you guys are getting the full rounded education, not only law school, podcast, and you get to work on real cases. So, boy, would it? Dream come true.
Steve Palmer [:What a dream. Right. What a dream. Now we did a series or we did an episode, and this one's a little bit different than what we've been doing. But we did an episode a week or two ago on Luigi and Luigi. Luigi and and his and his murder. And it the the fanfare from that or the comments on that is really sort of interesting. It's fascinating to me.
Steve Palmer [:I took a comment earlier today for those who watch, I'm wearing the same shirt. I took a comment earlier today from somebody who watched that episode and sort of was was chastising me a little bit because I I didn't, acknowledge that Luigi is innocent until proven guilty. So, look, I I responded to that, and I appreciate the comment. And I I sort of discussed that there are two sides to that coin. You know, there's there's what we know in the real world and what the legal system is and what it does. But then, you know, that sort of got us talking about other topics relevant to this. So let's let's have at it.
Bella Mata [:The the big thing that I've been seeing a lot recently on Luigi that's been bothering me is since the beginning, we just called it, like, they're putting on a show for for Luigi. They're bringing out a lot of force. When he's in the trial, he shackled up, wearing a bulletproof vest, has, like, six cops behind him.
Troy Hendrickson [:You mean
Steve Palmer [:he's in a court a public court?
Bella Mata [:Yeah. When he's in the courtroom. And then this is not something, like, I'm just noticing. Like, his lawyer is bringing up every single hearing. Like, what is going on here? Like, this is I think she calls him, like, political, like, political batter. Like,
Steve Palmer [:you know theater?
Bella Mata [:Yeah. Yeah. Political theater, like, the I don't know. She starts saying he they're using him. And Mhmm. I was like, okay. This seems like a decent argument. And then I saw yesterday the Florida school shooter at his trial.
Bella Mata [:No shackles. No bulletproof vest or anything. Like, just he's just there. And I was like, okay. Well, if Luigi is so dangerous, why is that guy just free walking around? So I I kinda have the question, like, when does this theater go too far? When does it become too prejudicial? When When can the court strike down and be I I understand it'd be crazy to say somebody who maybe committed murder is not guilty because we can't give them a fair trial through the theater. But when where's the line in the sand? When does it begin?
Steve Palmer [:Well, there's there's and interest ironically, this is a law school type discussion. Right? This is the kind of crap that you might banter around in law school. And in the real world, it's quite the it's sort of the opposite. Like, we because the answer is probably not any anything anybody wants to hear. It's, like, probably never is is really the answer.
Troy Hendrickson [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:But there there's some limits, and there's the Supreme Court has recognized some outer limits at times. And we've talked about a few of those, I think, with you guys at the table. But, you know, there's a famous case right out of Ohio, Sam Shepherd. And We we talked we talked about the Cleveland guy. The Cleveland guy. The doc from Cleveland and actually made a a movie about him. And then before that was a TV series called The Fugitive. But, with a one armed man who really did them.
Steve Palmer [:Anyway, you you you if you know the if you know, you know. But, you know, there was so much sensation surrounding that trial that the US Supreme Court basically said it was unfair and you have to redo it. But then you get to this point where today's day and age you know, that was the Cleveland Plain Dealer in local news, and probably some other national papers, but really they were talking about prejudice locally. But today today's day and age, where could you ever? Ever like, imagine if that case were today. It would be everywhere. I mean, it would be on everybody's phone, everybody's laptop, everybody's TV, everybody's podcast, and, you know, Luigi's sort of like that. So when does it go too far? Well, I don't know. But what if it does go too far? What's the remedy? I mean, where's if he can't if the only the only remedy, in other words, is if somehow this deprives him of an opportunity for a fair trial.
Steve Palmer [:So let's dig into a little bit more. I mean, what's what's the stage of the proceedings
Troy Hendrickson [:right now with Luigi? I believe
Bella Mata [:he's had his arraignment. They haven't done any type of, like, pre motions, hearings over those, but just arraignment, I think, on the state. And then, what is the federal one called? It's a
Steve Palmer [:Preliminary. We have a preliminary hearing. You have a detention hearing.
Bella Mata [:Yeah. I think they've done that on the federal end. That's it. Okay. So I believe that's where he's at right now. So, I mean, it's still really early, but they haven't had all discovery yet either. That was another complaint. But, I mean, it's pretty early.
Bella Mata [:People were talking about, like, Brady violations. I was and don't I mean, they don't have to immediately give you everything. Like, they they have time.
Steve Palmer [:They have a reasonable amount of time to get you discovery. And a Brady violation is a violation that occurs when the prosecutor does not hand over exculpatory or helpful evidence. It hasn't been long enough for that to occur yet, I don't think. Yeah. You know, usually that's something that smokes out before trial. But Yeah. What we're really talking about here is, like, you get these sensational cases, and maybe they start with the initial purp walk. You know, the guys frog marched on TV after the raid in his house.
Steve Palmer [:I mean, there's there's been some great ones in the last five years, not the least of which is the raid at Trump's Mar a Lago. You know, that was sensationalized with what I call stormtroopers and people going in. And there's been some other raids of some of his, some of his guys, back in, you know, when he was in his first term. There was a guy named Roger Stone. Stone. People remember the FBI coming in his backdoor and, you know, just crazy. And what's interesting about these is the point you're bringing up. I represent folks all the time, and, Troy, you know this.
Steve Palmer [:They're far more dangerous than any of those people Yeah. And far more threatening and far more interesting, really, if you would dig into it. But there's no major FBI raid on those guys. In fact, in in a just say a humdrum run of the mill case this is happening right now. I've got dozens of these in my file drawer. Client calls me. Hey. I'm under investigation for x y z crime.
Steve Palmer [:The maybe it's a drug case. I was pulled over with, the police think I had, like, five kilos of coke in my trunk. I say five kilos because that happens. That's a lot of cocaine in the criminal world. I call
Bella Mata [:that a normal amount. I call that Tuesday night. I'm sorry.
Steve Palmer [:People think yeah. So anyway and, you know, they let me go. So what do I do? I say, well, come on in while I have a meeting. I'll talk to him about it, and I'll say, who is the detective? And maybe it's a federal state task force. Who knows? Maybe it's just local cops. And I'll pick up the phone, and I'll say, hey, detective Flanagan. Steve Palmer here calling on behalf of Joe Blow. You like what I did there? Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Yeah. Calling on behalf of Joe Blow. I understand that you took some substances from him that you suspect to be cocaine. I'm just checking in. What can you tell me? And he gets really creepy. They they get not creepy. They get weirded out by this question because they're used to asking the question.
Steve Palmer [:And, they say, well, what's he wanna do? I said, well, what's going on with the case? What? Does your client wanna talk to us? What's going on with the case? So we have this little dance we do. But, anyway, it's pretty casual. I mean, you had a guy who was saying say he had guns and five bricks. You know? It's like, those guys get let go all the time. There's no purp walk. There's no frog march. There's no nothing. Sometimes there is.
Steve Palmer [:But it's not that big a deal. And then what I would do is I would say eventually, I try to get to the spot where, alright, detective. Who are you working with? Meaning, what prosecutors office? Is it a federal case? Is it a state case? I would then reach out to the prosecutor's office, say, hey. Look. I'm representing Joe Blow. Please give me a call if you guys are gonna do anything with this case, and we'll cooperate any way we can. Meaning, if you got him indicted or you wanna charge him, we will come to you. He's got a lawyer.
Steve Palmer [:Me. You know me, or maybe you don't, but look me up, and, we'll bring him there. There's a really famous case where this happened and blew up on the cops. You know what it is? Oh, man. Resulted in a low speed police chase Oh. In a white Ford Bronco. Oh,
Troy Hendrickson [:no. OJ.
Steve Palmer [:Right. Mhmm. So that happened. It's exactly what happened in that case. They had, OJ Simpson, and I think, Kardashian calls up the cops and arranges a surrender. We'll be there at 02:00 or one whenever it was. He didn't show. And it was it was a debacle.
Steve Palmer [:So sometimes you get a real violent guy. They just have to go make the arrest, and that that that was egg on the face of the cops.
Bella Mata [:The thing is, like, we've had it upstairs where we've been working with the prosecutors, and, like, they will file the indictment and arrest warrants, like, underneath our noses, like, try to sneak it in.
Steve Palmer [:Sometimes that happens.
Bella Mata [:And I was like because, I mean, we've had upstairs. I was like, this is insane.
Steve Palmer [:Like, why would you That happened in a case that we were working on in the last six months. And, basically, we had been in constant contact with the prosecutor's office all along. And I kept saying, anything new, anything new, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. And then one day, I I look online, and there's an indictment and I was like, what in the f are you doing? What are you talking about? I told you I'm representing him. The case has been pending investigation for inexplicably, mind you, there's no reason for the delay Mhmm. For six months. And now you, today, on a Friday, indict him and issue a warrant? What's wrong with that? And, you know, I would give him my I'd give him the effective middle finger, you know. It's like, come on.
Steve Palmer [:So it does happen, but a lot of times, it's, the courtesy is acknowledged, particularly in those kind of cases. And so so then you would ask, what what what cases are different? I think OJ's would have been different. I never if I were the police or prosecutor, I would have had that guy in cuffs day one. That was a blunder. The case we're talking about on the other side of the spectrum is a perfect case. Just a range, Just summons the guy. You know, it's not a violent crime. It was a it was a hit skip, by the way, folks.
Steve Palmer [:Meaning, there's a leaving the scene of an accident. It's like, you know, it's not a violent crime. He's got no prior record, no history of fleeing. He's got a job. He's got a family. You know, it's like you don't need to issue a warrant and grab that guy in cuffs. Sometimes prosecutors do it. I you know, I guess they have their prerogative.
Bella Mata [:I mean, they didn't really have to arrest OJ. I mean
Steve Palmer [:I mean It was just a double murder.
Bella Mata [:Yeah. I mean, he was found not guilty. You know? Know? But he
Steve Palmer [:was innocent until proven guilty. Yeah.
Bella Mata [:He said so look.
Steve Palmer [:There that's a perfect back to our comment, that's a perfect, example. You can look at the OJ case and say, factually speaking, there's that new Netflix series out there too. You can look at it and say, factually, that guy probably guilty.
Bella Mata [:There's a there's a good Fox News interview with him, where he goes over his book and there's, like, a chapter called Hypothetically Yeah. If you might have done it. And he's, like, hypothetically. And he, like, just goes into insane detail. And she's, like, asking questions, like, he's, like, I don't wanna go into that detail. I'm, like, well, hypothetically, can you go into
Steve Palmer [:that detail?
Bella Mata [:Right. So if you look at
Steve Palmer [:the case sort of as a looking back, factually speaking, in the real world, as I said in my com in my podcast address in that comment, probably guilty. But in the courtroom world, they didn't prove it. So look. Both things can be true at once. That is the beauty of our system. The the protections are there even for OJ who everybody thought was guilty. The protections are still there. And the prosecutors gotta bring into the courtroom evidence that's gonna prove the to the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that OJ is guilty.
Steve Palmer [:And you could say the jury got wrong. You could say that it was a fix. You could say that the dream team over whatever you're gonna say, they still have to do it. And if if you don't force that in OJ's case, and if we don't force that in Luigi's case, when it's your case or your son's case or your wife's case or your husband's case, guess what? There'll be no more protection for you if you're innocent. So that's that's why we do it. Now back to the real topic, which is the purplock and the sensationalism. Ism. They do it for show.
Steve Palmer [:Right? It's it's political show.
Bella Mata [:I feel like every high profile case is probably gonna argue that they're not gonna get a fair trial. But with the rise of social media and stuff, I feel like they can't use that, like, almost as a cop out because, I don't know, these high profile cases, they gain a lot of attention through the media, and it's like they can't just not cover it.
Bella Mata [:Mhmm. I'd I agree that the social media is, like, making it way easier.
Troy Hendrickson [:Mhmm.
Bella Mata [:But the thing is, like, I think the the state should almost take extra steps to ensure they're not going too far. Like, in
Troy Hendrickson [:Right.
Bella Mata [:In Luigi's, like, the Brady violations that they're talking about was, you know, defense brings up, hey. The mayor and the prosecutor went on into a documentary of Netflix bringing up evidence that I don't have yet.
Steve Palmer [:Like, that's It's not a Brady violation.
Troy Hendrickson [:I
Steve Palmer [:It's just something that needs to be supplied in discovery Yes. Soon.
Bella Mata [:I didn't think it was a Brady violation.
Steve Palmer [:But they are. Right. But the comments that's some people don't quite understand it. But, like, but why would you go do a doc like,
Bella Mata [:that's what I'm saying. Like, yes. Social media is bad. There's gonna be a lot of comments. Like, why would you add to the fire by the
Bella Mata [:There should maybe be some.
Steve Palmer [:Grandstanding lawyers is as old as the profession itself. Why? Because we're egotistical assholes at times. Right? I mean, we have to like, we have huge egos. And a lot of times, you have the you can just picture the old South Prosecutors on the steps of the courthouse, you know, grandstanding this or that. And I I and, you know, defense lawyers do it too, but, you know, it doesn't seem as bad when defense lawyers do it because we're slimy anyway. Right? They just you're just a slimy you're just doing it. But when you see prosecutors do it, when you see prosecutors grandstanding, it's troubling because it it somehow makes you feel that they're biased, that it's not fair, that that they're prosecuting, that they're doing things for their own ego instead of for justice. And, you know, they're gonna or their own political gain instead of for justice maybe.
Steve Palmer [:And that's I think that's what bothers bothers us about this. It's like you get a prosecutor going on sixty minutes or going on TV giving interviews about the case. I think I think you're right. It's a really bad look. I wouldn't do it. And if I were in charge of that prosecutor's office, I sure as heck wouldn't let anybody do it. I would say, listen. OJ's case like every other case, you know, be mindful that we're dealing with flack that you're not gonna get.
Steve Palmer [:But we're we're gonna treat it like somebody who we're gonna prosecute and prove guilty. We're not gonna cut corners. We're not gonna do we're not gonna, do anything unfair. We're gonna prosecute this guy. Now we gotta be ready for the onslaught, but we're gonna prosecute this guy. We'll be the same way. Look. This guy we've got good evidence against this guy.
Steve Palmer [:They're eyewitnesses of him doing this crime in cold blood. We're gonna go into the courtroom. We're gonna supply all the evidence that we should, and we're gonna prove him guilty. And I think if I wanted to diffuse the notion that he's not getting a fair shake, then I think treating him like ordinary business is what you would do. Meaning and and that includes I'm so I'm taking the defense aside on this. That includes not dragging him out in, the pickle suit or in shackles and the pickle suit or something. You put they put on a pickle suit. If you're in jail and they think you're a suicide arrest, they put you in a pickle suit.
Steve Palmer [:But That was called like a turtle suit. Not a turtle suit. Pickle suit. Whatever. What's in a potato? Pickle turtle. But yeah. And I think that that shows a little bit of unfairness, And I think you compromise the prosecutor. You compromise the integrity of your prosecution a little bit doing that.
Steve Palmer [:Now have you guys covered when it's a problem? Because there is a there is a threshold that can be crossed. You and you may not have gotten their criminal procedure.
Bella Mata [:I have not like, that's I just wanna know where the line is because in my head, like, imagine they say like, I'm just gonna put a hyp hypothetically. Imagine they say Luigi they're like, hey. You went too far. Can you imagine telling the family of the victim, like, hey. Sorry. We couldn't give the we gotta retry the guy because we wanted to just
Troy Hendrickson [:do a
Steve Palmer [:bunch of
Bella Mata [:we wanted we we wanted to do a nice little perp walk, bring the Marin. This is a Netflix documentary. It would be great, but but we gotta put you through the trial. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:I don't think they're there. But there there's a couple the outer limits might be the Shepherd case. And then at trial, there are rules. The when I'm representing somebody in custody at trial, I make the argument that I don't want the jury to see my guy in jail garb or leg shackles or leg irons or handcuffs. And the constitutionally, I'm entitled to that. So they they can't drag him out there in front of the jury deciding his guilt in shackles unless he needs it. Meaning, every now and then, you get these guys who just no matter what you do, they're gonna be they're gonna be impossible. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:So and I've had those. Like, I had a murder case here in Columbus. And it was a good self defense murder case. It was a great case. And we were trying it was all over the news every that was back in the days when, the news was still at court, and there were reporters there, and there were TV cameras there. And sometimes they still are, but it was a packed courtroom, and it was all over the place. And, like, every night or you would see it on the nightly news. And we started out.
Steve Palmer [:My guy was out on bond, and he showed up, in his white shirt and pants and whatever. But, you know, there was a little bit of an outburst in the courtroom, and the police had to take him down in in open court and put him in cuffs. So he had to be in shackles the rest of the time, but I still was able to get, like, a drape around. So the jury comes back the next day and, like, they're supposed to not know he's in cuffs, but now there's this drape around the table and, like, he's got leg irons and, you know, it was He
Bella Mata [:was doing some decorating.
Troy Hendrickson [:You know?
Bella Mata [:Yeah. I just thought that I could feel a little more homey.
Steve Palmer [:But I can't say he deserved it because I was arguing about whether that was appropriate or not. But they did it, and they they they were able to justify it. But, just starting that way, they can't. Now if the other there's another concern about Luigi, and that is protecting him. You get a case like this where, you get a lot of opinions on it. You know, is he a cold blooded rotten executioner, or is he the champion for the cause? You know? What is it? Who is he? Either way, his he might be in some danger. Mhmm. So having him surrounded by cops wearing a bulletproof vest as they marshal him in and out of the court might be for his own safety as much as everybody else's.
Bella Mata [:The, what's the, one guy who I can't think of his name
Steve Palmer [:right now. Who shot Kennedy? His killer? Ruby or Oswald? Oswald. You said who shot Kennedy's killer or
Bella Mata [:who shot Kennedy? Well, Kennedy's killer was Oswald. Really?
Steve Palmer [:Harvey Oswald. Well, maybe. We don't now we're gonna release some documents.
Bella Mata [:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Then we got we gotta figure that. Innocent till proven guilty. Right? Yeah. So so, I mean, that's that's a good point because, I mean, they brought him out. I've, like, watched that.
Bella Mata [:That was, like, news cameras, everything around that. Oswald. Boom. And then boom. I was like, that was, like, insane to be like, wow. Like, this happened in your town in, like, twenty four hours. Like, all of this is, like, insane.
Steve Palmer [:Think about that. You know, that's, like, the old days. You know, those kind of purple walks were common. Mhmm. And the the press would be there for that. Like, that would never happen today like that.
Bella Mata [:There's a good good one on, Naju on it where they bring him out actually, and they do, like, a press conference. They, like, bring him out to the room. All the media is there, like, alright. Just everybody start asking questions. They just he just, like, start and I was like, this is insane. Like, what if this happens? Patsy. Like, what if this happens today?
Troy Hendrickson [:I know
Steve Palmer [:it's crazy. And that's why, you know, our standards of what we believe is fair and acceptable evolve. And now we all think that that there's no way that would be fair and acceptable. But back then, they did. And, you know, it's like, it's hard to it's it's hard to look at this objectively and say, we're gonna judge what they did in 1963, based on what we do now. Because what we do now is based on what the the problems that emerge. You know, we don't if you think you're smart enough to foresee every single problem and every single issue and every single, virtue, then, you know, good luck. Mhmm.
Steve Palmer [:You know, we have our virtue now based on all the mistakes we made in the past. Right. And that that's the evolution of common law.
Bella Mata [:I feel like that the problem I have though is you also said that if they were trying to protect him whenever they asked him though, they said that, like, he's dangerous. And in my head, why didn't the state just say it's for his protection? And then in my head, like, you have that's a great
Steve Palmer [:answer. Why not say that? Here's the thing. We're not seeing everything. Alright? So always take the stuff with a grain of salt. You now, Troy, and and Bella, you soon will start to see these hearings in open court. And, you know, there's a, there's a lot going on. And if you want it, if you were a little bit interested in creating a sensational sound bite, you could probably clip out only parts that said we're doing it because we think he's dangerous. And then leave out, like, the five minutes before that where they say, look, we've had lots of threats against him.
Steve Palmer [:We've had lots of, we're concerned that somebody's gonna try to hurt him. We're concerned about this. We're concerned about that. So maybe it's both. And I'm not suggesting that happen because I don't know. I I just got a nose for things. I you know, if I were a prosecutor, I would be worried. If I were if I were a law enforcement prosecutor in that case, I'd be worried about that guy's safety, and that would that would be my lead.
Steve Palmer [:The and second to that would be, and, look, he killed somebody in cold blood. Now as a defense lawyer, the the flip side of that is, well well, look, fair enough. You wanna protect him. But how is he any more dangerous than the other murders that you got? Mhmm. Like, in in fact, he's probably less dangerous.
Bella Mata [:Yeah. I I mean, I was bringing up, like, the Florida kid. I mean, at the end of the day, like, there's people who've committed way worse crimes. And then even you're saying the people that I mean, I've met some people work like, while working here that are way worse than him, and it's just like
Steve Palmer [:I mean, these guys are They're out.
Bella Mata [:Yeah. Yeah. They're just out walking around. I was like Yeah. On. Yeah. I was like, this is insane. I was
Bella Mata [:like, wow. I'm wondering, and I hope this doesn't sound wrong, but I'm wondering if it depends kinda on who the victim was too. Like, in that case, it was a large CEO or, like, Kennedy or even, let's say, the one that shot Trump. I know he died, but, like, if he was still around
Troy Hendrickson [:Yeah.
Bella Mata [:I think it kinda
Steve Palmer [:I don't know.
Bella Mata [:I know. I think that's a Well that's a very fair consideration. The victim totally is Right. A lot of the equation.
Steve Palmer [:Who's the it's the case. How big is the case? Because, look, if it's if your mother is shot and killed, to you, that's the most important case in the world. And it might even be frustrating that why do we give a crap about this other thing when this is going on in my world? But, you know, it's news. Sensational stories sell, and the the media will make a story out of it. And but I guess if you turn back the clock, have you guys read, To Kill a Mockingbird?
Bella Mata [:I actually did read that book years ago.
Bella Mata [:I might have SparkNotes.
Steve Palmer [:Maybe seen the movie. College. Yeah. I'm doing
Bella Mata [:school, buddy. My my son's read that
Steve Palmer [:in, like, in middle school. Yeah. But anyway And
Bella Mata [:I know what SparkNotes was, and that's what that's what I'm saying.
Steve Palmer [:Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird. I won't get into details of it then. But and how about an well and there was a movie, Gregory Peck movie. And then there's another movie called A Time to Kill, a John Grisham book that they made a movie on. Matthew McConaughey's and that's Sandra Bullock. But, Oh, if he's out of
Bella Mata [:that, I should probably watch. He's national treasure. He's amazing. He's amazing.
Steve Palmer [:He's right. Alright. Alright. So but it it they sort of hearken back to a time when our entertainment court case. The the sensational murder case in the in the courthouse that sat in the town square that had the Second Story balcony, and people go that's what you did. You know, that that was like going to movies and standing room only in courtrooms. And that was that was our entertainment. We didn't have movies.
Steve Palmer [:We didn't have, the kind of media that is out there. But I think the concept has is is maintained. You know, the thread is still there. We don't go to the courthouse to watch it. We just watch it on TV, and people love it. People eat it up. I you know, people eat this podcast up. People love it because the law, particularly criminal law, man, it it it somehow, captures our interest in human psychology.
Steve Palmer [:It it It's
Bella Mata [:the most exciting law, hands down. Yeah. I really
Steve Palmer [:love it. I fell in love with it.
Troy Hendrickson [:I don't
Bella Mata [:think I could do anything else because, like, it's like
Steve Palmer [:It's dumb. Don't do this. Right. It's a it's a really hard way to earn a living.
Bella Mata [:Like, every transcript is like like, every girl I've talked today, they always have, like, obsessed with, like, certain books. And I'm like, I read, like, the most exciting book
Troy Hendrickson [:Right.
Bella Mata [:Every single day. Like, I'm I'm reading some crazy stuff
Troy Hendrickson [:off of
Bella Mata [:my head.
Steve Palmer [:Think about that, man. I mean, it's like the characters that that we deal with in a in a case. You get to you get to see people. You get to hear them. You get to get to know them and and and put yourself in their shoes. And then there's a victim, which, you know, it what's what's screwed up about our psychology that we love hearing this stuff? I I I don't know. But it, it captures people attention. And and as long as it does that, and that'll probably happen forever, we're gonna have this media blitz about everything.
Steve Palmer [:And as long as we have the media blitz about everything, it's going to tickle the most dangerous part of any human psychology, and that's our egos and our quest for attention and power and and clout or whatever. And that's gonna get the prosecutors' grandstands. It's gonna get defense attorneys with big egos, fighting it out on the courthouse steps. That that's part of it. And that means that, the media is also gonna I mean, they're going where the fish are. So the money is these these clips of the perp walk. So we're gonna give them that, and that's that's what happens.
Bella Mata [:I think of the, the interview. Who is it? Seth Rogen and James Franco?
Steve Palmer [:Seth Rogen or Joe Rogen?
Bella Mata [:Seth Rogen.
Steve Palmer [:Seth Rogen.
Bella Mata [:Yeah. It's the Korean movie where they protect the Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Yeah.
Bella Mata [:Yeah. And he's like, James Franco's like, they want the shit. Feed them the shit.
Steve Palmer [:So one more thing. They don't and they don't teach you that in law teach you this in law school. See, I've represented over the years, I don't know, a dozen or so really high publicity cases. The kind that maybe even the national media that would would wanna that has been there and followed it. ESPN on one case and, you know, just big stuff. And I I I've learned that you have to the
Troy Hendrickson [:the media is like a vacuum. It's going to
Steve Palmer [:fill up with it's going to fill up with something. And if as a as a practicing criminal defense lawyer, I have to be mindful of that. So if I don't provide any commentary or any statements to the media, well, they're gonna find something to fill up that time about my case because there's interest in it. And we have to and we have ethical rules that we have to follow. I I have to be careful about what I can say and what I can't say. I'm not gonna repeat things that are privileged, and I'm not gonna overpromise things because you don't wanna say, well, they're never gonna be able to prove this guy guilty beyond a reasonable doubt ever ever ever. And then I get the discovery, and I'm like, maybe they can't. So now you gotta eat crow.
Steve Palmer [:But you have to fill with something. And I I have learned to control the purple. If I have to if I've had a court case or something, I will have somebody at my office drop us off in front of the courthouse, and we'll I'll walk in with my client. And usually, the media knows because I've interacted with them throughout the case. They're not gonna be be a barrage. They don't have to honor that, and they don't always. But, again, if you're if we're a prick to the media throughout a case, I mean, they're not gonna be on your side. Even if you you know? And This is true whether your client's guilty or not guilty.
Steve Palmer [:You know? You've gotta you gotta manage that. And, it's a it's a dance that you learn over time that you learn over time, because if you give them nothing, then they'll fill it with what they want. If you give them too much, now you've gone too far. So there's a there's a medium there. Now I have I I have been in a situation, Now I have I I have been in a situation where we actually drove into the the the, blocked off gated garage in federal court, and we're dropped off there because it was so crazy. And the the the prosecutor knew we're doing that with I did it with their permission or their act acquiescence, and the judge knew. But that that was how crazy it was. So we came in literally the the judge's entrance, which was an interesting experience.
Steve Palmer [:But, anyway, that I guess that sort of covers the topic. You know, is it fair that this guy, that Luigi or these other people are in change and shackles and are making a new sensation about it? Is it fair that, they raid political criminal targets whether they're guilty or not guilty with all the costume dress just to make a show? Is it fair that the guy, the school shooter, the alleged school shooter down in Florida doesn't have shackles on, but Luigi does? Is it fair that we have a murder client right now who's walking the streets on bond and has been for two years? No. None of it's fair. And if you think you're looking for fairness, guess what? You're not gonna find it in the in the justice system. Our job is to make it as fair as we can. But if you think you're gonna compare your situation, it's gonna be the same as this one and the same as that one. It's not.
Bella Mata [:Even Trump's mugshot, I feel like that was just for show. I mean, he has, like, the most famous face on the planet. He really didn't need to to have that mugshot taken.
Troy Hendrickson [:But
Bella Mata [:Well I like his little pose.
Bella Mata [:I like
Steve Palmer [:his You know, but on on that on on for that for his part, Trump understood the value of that. You know, he understood that. So Trump Trump has got some insight into this stuff. I think maybe, you know, he's been in the public eye and has his own TV show. So he's got some insight into this. Like, he's the he's the king troll. Right?
Bella Mata [:Yeah. He put it on a mug and
Steve Palmer [:Like, so what's he do? He turns that into his asset. Right. And maybe that's a great that's a great point you're bringing up because what's Luigi do? Turn into an asset. You know, folks, how am I supposed to get a fair trial? What have they tried to do from day one? This kid's committed only, allegedly, one crime his entire life. Other than that, he's had blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. And they're treating him like he's, like he's hidden. Worst hit man. Right.
Troy Hendrickson [:Right. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:You know, they're treating him like the most evil person in the world. They're treating him differently than everybody else that's charged with the same thing. Why is that? What are they trying to say to you? What are they trying to get you to buy into? You know, you can use that. You know, there's a aikido, I think is the martial art where you take the other person's force and turn it on them. It's I use that as analogy all the time in criminal defense. Do some here. You know, if they're coming at us with this, let's turn it on them. And and, you know, if if this I often say, even the bully sometimes, sometimes, gets sympathy when the backlash is too much.
Steve Palmer [:You know, you can punish the bully. You can kick his ass, but you can't keep kicking his ass until he's dead. You know? You you've gotta at some point, you gotta let him up. And, in I I think maybe the system learned a little bit in the Trump cases about that. Mhmm. You know, at some point, you gotta let him up. And if you don't, then he starts to get some sympathy. Or in the Luigi case, if I'm representing him, You know, at some point, you you you're going too far, and it's not fair.
Steve Palmer [:So is it can can we do something to stop it? Well, you can't bottle up human emotion in in effectively, but you can turn it. You know, you can you can use it and and educate a educate the public about this. So if I've if I'm the defense attorneys, I'm on the courthouse steps, and that's my comment. Look. We don't even have all the evidence yet, folks. They're on TV talking to Netflix, talking to sixty minutes about evidence that they haven't even given us. They're bringing this kid in with an army of cops who should be on the streets doing what their job is. And how am I you know, what's fair about any of this? Give us a fair shake.
Steve Palmer [:That's all we're asking. You know? And, you know, you start to you start to sow those seeds, and, you you get maybe some action out of that. But, anyway, well, they didn't teach any of that. And maybe maybe this point farther than a discussion you guys get in law school, probably.
Bella Mata [:It's usually not this in in-depth. We're also trying this we gotta give our bells talking time too so you don't get everything you want.
Steve Palmer [:We're the smartest people at the table.
Bella Mata [:I mean, yes. We we are the smart I mean,
Steve Palmer [:this table.
Bella Mata [:Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Troy Hendrickson [:Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
Bella Mata [:Any other table? No. We're like Bob. Right.
Steve Palmer [:Alright. Well, lawyertalkpodcast.com. They don't teach you that in law school. If you've got a topic you want us to cover, maybe you're a law student. Maybe you're thinking, man, I wish I had these people in our classroom setting and kick this around. Give us a shout. Send us a comment at lawyer talk podcast dot com. Shoot us a comment on the socials.
Steve Palmer [:Where are we now? We're on YouTube and we there's TikTok still around? We stop TikTok.
Bella Mata [:Yeah. We're not talking. I'm not I'm not yeah. Not not talking too much. Just TikTok.
Steve Palmer [:It's it's it's not talking. Alright. Well, anyway, we're on the socials or Facebook and YouTube, and, you can check us always out at the website. So leave us a comment and or send us a question. We'll cover it here. Maybe, just maybe, if you're a law student out there, you wanna join. We got the TV up here. You can join, join remotely.
Steve Palmer [:We'll we'll talk about doing that too. So, anyway, lawyer talk, they don't teach you that in law school off the record on the air until next week.
