This episode takes a sidestep into the realm of parapsychology, to explore its intersections with mental health. Hosts Melissa, Morgan, and Mike discuss how spiritual beliefs and experiences can manifest in various ways, potentially influencing individuals' mental well-being. While it can be difficult navigating the delicate balance between recognizing spiritual experiences and addressing possible psychotic symptoms, the hosts highlight the importance of empathy and understanding. They also share their own varying perceptions and experiences of the paranormal, and how their significance may have shaped their approach to the therapeutic process.

Mentioned This Episode

Website: Religion, Spirituality, and Mental Health

Website: Is it Psychosis or a Spiritual Emergency

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Welcome to A PsychoDelicious Conversation on mental health issues and trends from three local mental health professionals in the greater Lansing area. I'm Michael Stratton, lmsw.

And I'm Morgan Bowen, pmhnp.

And I'm Melissa Black, pmhnp. And we're here to provide you with a deep dive into the human experience of consciousness and beyond.

Our aim is to be educational and entertaining. So just kick back and open your ears and your minds foreign.

Hi, this is Melissa Black.

And I'm Michael Stratton.

And I'm Morgan Bowen.

I'm Daedalian and I'm the producer.

We should not make faces at each other. Seriously.

While we were sitting there through the intro, you guys are all looking at each other like you've never heard the intro before.

What's the story there?

It sounded like more clear and I don't know, for some reason it was popping today. It was popping. Yeah, it was.

Yes.

Okay. All right. Sometimes it's nerve wracking. Yeah.

It's still weird for me to hear my voice.

That's the thing is you all had that look on your face like you

were kind of scared of it.

Like, it was like.

Well, speaking of scary.

Well, speaking of scary topics.

See how I segued it?

Great job.

Really good.

Real shiny. Yes. Yeah. Today we're talking about parapsychology.

Para. I thought you were going to say parasite. But no, parapsychology.

Parapsychology.

So what is that? Yeah, tell me more.

So.

So para is like, unusual. I should have googled that to like, paranormal. Like paranormal, like something outside of. Of what we expect.

But I do think that, like, one of the things that I keep thinking about as I. I was thinking about today's episode is, you know, just that what's para to one person may not be para to another person. And how like some folks, their, you know, rigidity will come through in that way. And just how it can present differently

with different people because you have your producer. I looked it up and para noticed that the prefix means beside alongside of beyond.

Aside from so paratrooper. Paragraph.

Parallel. Parallel.

Yeah, yeah.

And paranormal. So paranormal as in. So alongside. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But not necessarily abnormal or something that's false.

So, like, I see this as like an even more just another interesting, extremely gray area in, like, all things that we could talk about in a million different ways.

So what has it, like, how is

it presented in your practice professionally, practice wise?

I do have some, like, weird stories of my time as, like, a tech and as a nurse in the hospital where I've actually had some weird, spooky interactions with people who were, like, having psychotic symptoms at that time. And that's obviously. That's one area of it. Like, someone knew my middle name. This person doesn't.

I mean, definitely could not have known my middle name and stared at me while they told me my whole name and then spun around the room.

Was it an unusual middle name?

Yes, my middle name is Margot.

That is unique.

Yeah. So definitely.

That's definitely. Yeah.

So did they already know your first and last name prior to knowing your middle name?

Nurse Melissa.

So that's all. They didn't even know that your last name.

Well, also, when you're working on the psychiatric unit, you're not really wanting people to know your full.

Yeah.

Your full name and contact information. I mean, not always. I mean, you try to be pretty bland and anonymous.

Yes, yes. Like, not giving personal details for many reasons. But how it's, you know, how. Yeah, how it's shown up in my outpatient practice, for sure, is.

Is really. It has shown up in a way of, like, something that's meaningful to someone.

Like how someone is, like, dealing with a loss or sometimes someone saying, no.

Like, I do believe there are Norse gods living in the forest, you know, and they find strength and resilience and coping through, like, thinking about that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Believing in something you don't understand. I'm quoting Stevie Wonder now, but.

But the idea of spirituality to begin with, I mean, especially in the Midwest, you don't see this as much on the coast, but in the Midwest, there's strong spiritual beliefs that people have and prayer lives and, you know, they draw a lot of strength from that. They really use as a way to help themselves psychologically and through difficult times, that kind of thing.

So one end of the continuum, there's that. And where does it become a gray line?

So someone who thinks, oh, not only do I believe in God, but I believe I am God, or God speaks directly to me, or I. I hear his voice like it's on the radio, that kind of thing.

One of the. When I looked up. This is just from a Google search, but it was a. An article from the Psychiatric times.

It said 30 to 90% of folks with severe mental illness view spirituality, you know, at some level as an essential resource for coping and recovery. So that really. That really hit me. And it also talked about, like, how we can be supportive and also how we can.

Like, it talked about delineating between, like, a break or loss of reality and, you know, spiritual experiences, perceptions, observations Those types of things.

It's so interesting because religion frequently having worked, all of us have worked as techs in the inpatient psychiatric units. And so for people who are actively psychotic, there is very frequently a religious component to the psychosis. Yes, often.

I mean, Christian, or if the person is Christian, lots of Bible reading. And what is the book of the Bible with all of the revelations? Yes, the revelations and the very good verse.

There's a good versus evil component often to the person is fighting off evil forces. So, yeah, there's just like that. That features heavily in a psychotic sense.

I was brought up real strict Catholic upbringing. I went to Holy Cross Church and School, which is just a few blocks from here. Actually, it was torn down.

The church still is there, but we had nuns that taught us, and I remember being told horrifying stories by these nuns that if you don't believe in Jesus, he will appear to you and the bleeding face of Jesus will be splattering on your pillow. And so that was one of my prayers as a kid. And gosh, other things like, similar to that.

Like, I had such a strong belief that when I would be in church in the morning, this is the time of the baby boom, right. So there was always babies crying. And I thought, well, that's the baby Jesus. Baby Jesus is here. Because they would say, jesus is here with us now.

And so I thought, well, that's. That's what that is. And so that was really deeply inbred. And one comedian says, I was raised Catholic, so of course now I'm an atheist.

Yeah,

there was just such spectacular stories, but I can see what fertile ground that would be for somebody to develop really strange delusions around.

And I think historically, I mean, they can map that back, I mean, centuries and centuries, like, probably even more like thousands of years.

Even some of the, like in Jesus's historical time, like, I mean, you can kind of go back and in historical reading, see, like, the word zealot, like someone who just is very, very excited and extra and like, puts everything into that belief and then kind of does have this break potentially. Maybe we would see from reality and what. Another thing that came up when I searched it was psychosis versus spiritual emergency.

A psychosis is a loss of reality, spiritual emergency, temporary crisis that can lead to a deeper understanding. And, like, being able to assess for that, like, I just feel like, is extremely tricky.

A spiritual emergency. Yeah. What is it again? Will you read it again? I think I'm having one right now.

So it was discussing psychosis versus spiritual emergency. So in A spiritual emergency, it's temporary crisis without a loss of reality.

Okay, good.

So we have our reality.

We have whatever that experience is happening, you know, whatever is occurring that hopefully will be able to lead to a deeper understanding and growth unless we then develop a break from reality.

I really love that stress. Yeah, I love the idea of a spiritual emergency because I haven't thought about it that way. I mean, whether it be my own or somebody.

Well, I.

So, you know, I think. I think I have.

Yeah, I. I think you have too.

Would you say I'm having one right now? Yeah. I mean, just at times in your life where. Where, you know, I guess I'm picturing, like, growth. Like, you. You're at a.

A point where there's like a divergence or a. A fork in the road. You know, you have a decision to make, and, you know, you.

You've come to the life you knew before is ending, and, you know, there's maybe a leveling up and you have a choice and how to do, you know, how do you do that? What choice do you make?

Depending on the person?

I mean, I can see how the stress of that would potentially, you know, present itself to a certain individual, a certain type of person as like, a change in perception. Things feel different, things feel unsure. It could become a very, like, kind of somatic experience for them.

I would see a lot of people, you know, care for a lot of people who had a lot of somatic complaints, you know, that were then, well, this is delusional. And it's all coming from stress.

Like, if someone's nervous system is overactive, you know, maybe there are signals that are firing where they're seeing things in their vision, you know, like, yes, it's a crisis.

They may view that they also seeking. They're seeking an answer.

So now I'm thinking of, like, you know, kind of the world of divination and wanting to understand, are there signs, you know, are there signs pointing me in a certain direction? Should I, you know, go this way on the path instead of that way?

And I think when people are in spiritual crisis or in, you know, some type of crisis, which can sometimes lead to psychiatric care or, you know, seeing a therapist, then you're raw. You know, you're really raw. You're raw. You're open. And so I have clients who go to mediums, you know, and. And have a very strong belief.

And sometimes I think over reliance on, you know, on a psychic person that they, you know, see and they pay. And sometimes I'm like, do we do the same thing.

Are we doing the same thing or, you know, somebody's seeking help, you know, and seeking help in multiple different ways. I like to get my car. Like tarot cards. I love tarot cards. So does Melissa. We share that. And, you know, that's another.

I mean, you know, tarot can be used for a lot of reasons. So, yeah, people, when they're seeking, are open to possibilities.

Well, I think definitely there's a lot of things that we don't understand. And then when someone comes by and says, you know, hello, Margot, you know, that kind of thing.

And I've seen a psychic in the past, and I saw her a handful of times as well as getting therapy, and both were valuable in different ways.

But the psychic that I saw lived a few times away, and there was a period of time when I had not seen her in probably, I don't know, three to five years or something. Something happened in my life that I was really, really upset, and my blood pressure was really elevated. And I got a call from her.

She never called me. And she said, mike, what are you doing? What's going on? And she says, I can feel you from here. And that was like, wow. Wow.

So, I mean, I believe in those types of things. So, I mean, I trained my mom. I don't even know if she'd want me.

Too late.

Yep, too late. So mom does readings.

I mean, like, I was not raised from the beginning, but definitely raised from the beginning about, like, intuition, following your gut. But then as I was a teen, I was taking astrology and tarot classes.

And then my mom was, like, taking other, like, medical, intuitive, and, like, psychic type just classes, like, learning about these things. And so it's definitely been part of my world alongside, you know. Okay.

But, yes, we are also Greek Orthodox because that's our cultural identification. And, you know, we don't only believe in this.

It's kind of like this Unitarian type, disorganized Unitarian, sort of something that doesn't make sense as I'm saying it out loud, but it made sense to me.

It's making sense to me.

Yeah.

So, like, to me, too.

Using your intuition when you're doing a card spread for someone, I feel like the art of psychology.

And when we're working with folks, I feel like there can be a shared space where, yes, I'm using my training, but it feels very similar to me as when I'm, like, sitting in a very vulnerable space with someone reading their tarot cards. Obviously, it's not the same. I feel like I'M babbling?

No, I was thinking, girl, we need to talk. Yeah, I want to meet your mom, for one thing.

She's pretty darn cool.

Well, I think psychiatry, over the course of its history has been birthed out of a interest in the inner world of the human psyche, of the human experience. And that has been the landscape, the playground of a lot of different esoteric and spiritual planes.

And so psychiatry has attempted and I think successfully and sometimes maybe has overblown a desire to completely dissociate from that.

Yes.

And this is, you know, this is medical, this is scientific.

What can be measured, what's measurable, what can be observable versus.

Yes.

Stuff that's hard to explain.

And there are theorists that have, you know, flirted with maybe, you know, young is. Oh yeah, Carl Jung has definitely delved into, or did delve into the, you know, the more woo woo, the woo woo side of life.

But there was a huge break with him and Freud because of it. So it's kind of a good dynamic.

That was a big part of it.

He was also, you know, he talked in terms of alcoholism as an attempt to use spirits, you know, as in alcohol, to have some kind of a spiritual healing almost. That's what he thought people were searching for.

And he thought that the cure then for that was to have some kind of a spiritual breakthrough, which is what the 12 steps then became founded on, that you had to believe in something. But the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous were wise enough to leave that so open ended that it could be any higher power.

So it could be the power of nature, it could be the power of relationships, it could be the power of the group you were meeting with. Didn't have to be a specific spiritual entity or didn't have to be Odin.

Yes, yes.

Well, there's a cultural component to all this too. So, you know, a huge cultural component component when working with folks, understanding what their belief system is.

Right.

And how it is that they understand things and how that can, you know, for us gel with, you know, medication, which we work out of a very Western medicine model. And so that becomes important in some.

I mean, I think it's important in all cases, but very important in cases where it's kind of less of an easy matchup.

Like someone who feels like there's a presence in their house.

I mean, I'm not going to tell someone that has happened to me or I've experienced that, but I'm going to be open to like just because that's my personal problems and like they don't need to hear about that, but, like, still have, like, a space where that's not weird. Like, I've had someone say to me, like, normally, people get weird when I talk about this.

And, like, I like that I don't get weird when, you know, that I can sit in those spaces of the unknown.

And I think it's come up in some of our other episodes so far that I think getting comfortable or accepting that unknown, especially folks who are all in on the Western model and the medical model, they really, I think, lose a chance at maybe connecting with who they're caring for. And, like, I don't know.

It's interesting, too, how that's kind of protected, you know, when you've had those kind of experiences. Like, I'm not gonna tell anybody that this. Yeah, I'm gonna.

But today I'm gonna tell anybody this at some point in the second part, but we're not there yet. But I think a lot of people have had some experience in some way that's, like, really hard to explain. And, like, this.

This has gotta be something that was absolutely paranormal. This was not at all in the norm.

Yeah, well.

And oftentimes when I've had clients like that, they wanna know if they are psychotic. Yes, there will be. You know, they've either looked up things or somebody has told. That is a sign of psychosis.

And, you know, the difference is the break with reality. So, you know, I mean, it begs the question, what is reality? But somebody who is actively psychotic cannot.

There is not a differentiation between, you know, what's happening internally and what's happening externally. And there's a mismatch. There's definitely a mismatch.

Is this real or is this not?

I remember one time when I was working as a psych tech and we were all psych techs, and I was taking a patient from the unit over to the gift shop and a voice came over the speaker. They were making an announcement and they were saying, you know, doctor, so and so, will you please report to. And then they giggled.

And then it clicked off. So. And I looked over at the guy and he had been psychotic. And I said, did you hear that? And he said, did you?

And I said, yay.

And he said, I did too. But he was cautious about that. Like, am I. Was this a real thing that I just heard or not? And. And it was.

Anyway, so have you guys had paranormal slash parasite parapsychiatric experiences?

Like, personally, like, yes. Yes. I've definitely seen things that I can explain.

I've felt things I can't explain hearing, maybe not so much, but probably it was probably just the house settling with the hearing. But like I. In our episode about dreams, I talked about this dream that I had where like I felt like this force was pulling me up by my chest.

So that is the same feeling viscerally I've had when I've had these like witnessed things that I can't really explain. That same feeling will happen in my chest. So that's always carried with me like something was spooky in that dream.

And then something has been equally spooky in those moments. Like because they all have that weird chest feeling that my therapist is like, you know, that's where you are holding stress.

Yeah. The body keeps the score.

Yeah.

You were learning more all the time about things.

So I think in terms of a continuum that on the one end, this happens to me so often where I'll think about somebody and then they'll call me the next week and it could be someone I haven't heard from in years. It could be. And it happened just recently where there was somebody who I had seen. I think we figured out it had been 17 years before.

And this person had said something that had always stayed with me. And I thought that line, you know, two weeks ago, five days later, she called and said, can we meet again?

And that was just like, wow, that just happens like probably monthly.

I would say, me too, me too. Yes. Whether it's personal life or patients, I'll have a patient pop into my mind. Like, gosh, I wonder what's happening with them.

I haven't seen them in a while. Or they just pop in and then within a few days it's like so and so called, like they need to talk to you.

And it makes you wonder, are they thinking of you at that time, at that moment? Are they calling out to you? Are you conjuring them? Yeah, of it's time for you to come in again.

Just like. That's extremely cool to me that like our different electrons and atoms potentially, you know, depending.

I mean, they're just zooming out, like making those little electrical currents and who knows? I mean, that's one theory, right?

I like that theory.

I do too.

I haven't had any of these experiences that really that stand out to me. I mean, maybe micro experiences along the way. No, but I can't even think of something tangible or something memorable.

I can't say that I've ever. I mean, I kind of like Morgan. I mean, I can say that it's been a Couple times in my life or something like that's kind of happened.

I'm not an overly empathetic person, so I don't know if that might be something.

I'm uber empathetic.

I mean, I can be, but I can't say that it's a strong skill or trait for me.

You and I are too selfish to hear that.

Jeez, you guys are monsters.

Well, I was thinking about, you know, so a lot of people will describe themselves as empaths, and so that communicates some thing. So what. When you say you are. When somebody says they are an empath, what. What. What do you take that to mean for me?

Describes to some level the energetic connection I feel with beings, like living creatures around me.

Whether that's people or it's animals being really aware of what they're doing, you know, how they're behaving, how things are feeling, you know, in the room that we're in or whatever. But it is.

I recognize now when you grow up in a situation where there's a lot of ups and downs and there's like, a lot of trauma, say, like, I get that I was likely hardwired that I had to be empathic and, like, I had to be really sensitive to the sensitive.

But do you think that could also, like, lend somebody to be less empathic if they live in kind of a, you know.

Oh, it could go either way. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Where you end up shutting that down

for survival or you close it off.

The hyper vigilance versus the hypovigilance. So the hypervigilance, that was me. My brother was hypo vigilant. That the way you hear someone walking across the floor upstairs is different.

Yeah.

The way the door shuts is like, okay, this is. It's okay. Or. Or, oh, yeah, it's time to check out what's going on.

Yes.

That kind of thing. That's. That's who I am. And. And other people just like, I'm gonna put the headphones on and turn up the music, you know, And.

And they can do that energetically and physically. I can physically do it, but I'm still thinking about the things that. That I heard or what I'm worried about. For sure.

Sure. Oh, God, we're out of time already. Part two for Ghost Stories.

You didn't feel that.

A PsychoDelicious Conversation is meant for educational and entertainment purposes only. It is no substitute for therapy and should not be treated as such. If you feel a need for real therapy, you should consult your local provider.

Google Therapy. Or therapist in your area. Check your Community Mental Health or Assist Suicide hotline if you are feeling suicidal.

Mike Morgan and Melissa welcome your questions, feedback or dilemmas. Feel free to send your emails to psych.dlishgmail.com that's p s y c h.d e e l I s h mail.com

the views expressed on this podcast are solely the opinions of Mike Stratton, Morgan Bowen and Melissa Black and do not reflect the views or opinions of any site broadcasting this podcast. Replication of this podcast without written permission is strictly prohibited.