The central theme of this discussion revolves around the complexities of couples therapy, particularly as it pertains to the dynamics of communication and conflict resolution within intimate relationships. Michael Stratton and Morgan Bowen delve into the myriad issues that often compel couples to seek therapeutic intervention, including financial disagreements, intimacy challenges, and parenting conflicts. Furthermore, we explore the influential research of John Gottman, whose longitudinal studies elucidate the patterns of interaction that can predict relational success or dissolution. In recognizing the importance of effective communication, we highlight the detrimental effects of criticism, defensiveness, contempt, and stonewalling—elements that can significantly undermine relational harmony.

Website: Gottman Love Lab

Website: The Four Horsemen of Communication

1. Criticism
2. Contempt
3. Defensiveness
4. Stonewalling

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Welcome to a Psycho delicious conversation on mental health issues and trends from two local mental health professionals in the greater Lansing area. I'm Michael Stratton, lmsw.

And I'm Morgan Bowen, dnp, pmhnp. And we're here to provide you with a deep dive into the human experience of consciousness and beyond. Our aim is to be educational and entertaining.

So just kick back and open your ears and your minds.

Hey, I'm Mike Stratton.

And I'm Morgan Bowen.

And this is part two of our couples talk. And we're gonna shift a little bit. This is actually Valentine's Day that we're recording this.

And so the first part, we talked about our own histories with couples.

Yeah, that was fun.

Current successful coupling that we have going on with our prospective partners. And we're gonna talk about treatment of couples during this section.

Cause one of the things that does bring people to therapy is often is relationship issues. And couples will sometimes present and sometimes someone will be presented saying, oh, my wife wants me to come, or my husband wants me to come.

Spouse ordered.

Spouse ordered.

Do you typically do couples?

I used to, yeah. It's really hard.

Yeah. Yeah, I would imagine.

I was doing it. I saw it. So it's rare for me to do it anymore. It's very rare. I shouldn't say I stopped doing it completely.

Was there a couple that ever came in where you went? You guys should probably just call it good.

Yes.

Yeah. Okay.

So that is a thing.

I mean, I've seen it lampooned on, like, various shows, so I thought it.

Was early in my career. Early in my career. And a couple came in and they said, will you tell us whether or not we should be together? And I said, that's not up to me.

That, that's. That's something we should. You know, you guys need to decide on your own. So we worked together for several years, and at the end of.

Near the end of our working together, I said, I think you guys shouldn't be together. And they were offended and they stayed together despite me. For another.

And I swear that has been lampooned in a movie or a show or something. I saw when they get mad at the therapist and go, I missed out on that.

We're going to do this. They ended up splitting up, though.

Oh, well, there you go.

So I was right.

And, you know, so I was wondering if you, you know, so you're seeing an individual and then they want to bring their spouse into a session maybe first, you know, would you do that?

It's difficult because you have a Connection with one person already. And so to bring somebody else in, that person feels like an outsider. So you have to kind of double down on the new person to make them feel.

Yeah. Your client's like, can you tell my spouse what you were telling me about how I'm right?

Yeah.

Well, and that is a strange thing that you mentioned that, because a lot of couples that come in are looking for someone to figure out who's right here.

Yeah.

Validate them. Sure.

And a big part of therapy is validating both people, of really validating them, but also helping them to see what patterns of communication they have that seems to be getting them in trouble or what the issues are, you know, so the big issues, I mean, what would your guess be? What are the biggest issues that bring people into couples therapy?

Well, we were just talking about it off mic, and we were talking about money. Money, I think would be one thing. Money, money, finances.

Communication, intimacy. Like sex, I would think Infidelity.

Yeah, yeah, all of those. Parenting. Parenting.

Parenting, yeah.

Family of origin issues.

Drug use. Drug or alcohol use.

Drug and alcohol.

I could see a loss being probably a major factor, like a loss of a child or loss of a parent or anything like that.

Yeah, all of those. All of those are possibilities. Yeah. So one of the ways that influenced me a lot in terms of working with couples, there was a guy named Gottman.

Have you heard of the Gottman? Yeah. You have? Morgan. And he did a lot of research on couples. He did a longitudinal study. He studied 20,000 couples over the course of 20 years.

He created what he called a love lab, where he. He looked at these couples over a period of time. G O T T M A N Gottman. John Gottman. And he looked at these couples over a long period of time.

And he found several things that came out of that research. One was that 69% of the things that people argued about 20 years before were the same things they argued about 20 years later.

So there's a lot of things that people have conflicts about that aren't gonna change. But on the other hand, 31% of the stuff did change. So things do change to a certain degree.

But the idea of, like, I'm going to marry this person and change them, you're probably not going to, you know, what you see is what you get. I think that that's a safe assumption for people when they get into a relationship, as opposed to thinking they'll change once we get married.

And that's such a hard.

You know, I personally have had that challenge of trying to change and not even consciously doing, you know, like that there's a subgroup, but it's so consistent that partners are trying to change the other person in some way. That is really probably not going to happen.

Well, everybody's got imperfections.

And so your ability to tolerate the imperfections of your partner of like the things that drive you a little bit crazy, you have to be able to say, okay, can I live with this? Can I accept this? Is this going to be okay? And if you can't, then that's an early warning sign of like, maybe I don't belong in this relations.

The other thing that Gottman, there's his love lab. There we go. It's cool. So he also found he would wire people up. He did galvanized skin responses. He would look at micro interactions.

What time period is this? This is current.

But he would find a couple of things in particular that were big predictors of whether a couple was going to make it.

And he thought that he could sit down and in a five or ten minute interview with them, he'd know at a 95% success rate whether people were going to stay together or not. And what he found was that one thing is their heart rate.

If their heart rate got up to an aerobic level during a disagreement or an argument, that person was likely to leave the marriage or the relationship.

Interesting.

Yeah, they were just in too much distress and you can't always tell that. I would see couples and I'd have them look at their heart rates while they were in the midst of having a disagreement about something.

And someone who looks really calm, their heart could be in afib and the person who's yelling or loud might be calm as anything. So heart rate is one thing to look at. The other thing to look at was positive to negative interactions during a disagreement.

That there were four positive interactions to every one negative interaction.

So the positive interactions could be things like smiling, touching, moving in, nodding, saying endearing things to each other, reflecting back what they just heard them say. Those are all positive things in an argument.

Like in a discussion.

In a discussion or an argument.

Heated discussion.

Yeah. And then the one negative thing would be. So they kept it light, they kept connected. There's that sense of I still like you in the face of all this.

And then he identified what were negative things though.

I mean like name calling.

Here we go.

Profanity.

There were four. Four Horsemen. He calls them the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. And I've got them down below. I've got them.

Well, let's think of. What do you think they are?

What do you think they are?

Well, I would say some sort of name calling. Like, some.

I could see name calling. Definitely be one of them. Trying to think of my own situations as we're talking about this. Basically saying.

And I don't know the actual medical term, but the notion that you always do this.

I was just thinking that, too.

Like, cognitive distortion. Is that what it's called?

Well, you've named. You've named two of them. Not the names that he gives them, but those are two of them. What you say.

And then beyond that level of, you.

Know, like yelling, like some, you know, like a affective response where you're, you know, aggressive or aggressiveness and. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. So that's our three. These are the four that he identified. One is criticism.

So it's verbally attacking the person, just being critical of what they did or what they didn't do. And that would be, you know, when you think about things that you get criticized for in a relationship, you never did this. You always do this.

Why are you like that? That kind of thing.

Interesting to. That is one of the things that I experience is the notion that I feel like I'm being criticized when indeed the other person says they're not.

And I'm always back and forth because I'm like, I still feel like I'm being criticized here.

Well, obviously, you're right. Just saying no.

Well, and I've experienced it the other way, too, where the other person felt like I was criticizing him. And I'm like, no, no, that's not what I mean by that at all.

Yeah. This is a really interesting distinction, because the distinction between intent. So the person doesn't intend to criticize you.

They're giving you feedback, but it lands like criticism. For instance, it's like you might be trying to make this point, but it. But to me, it's feeling like criticism.

And so for the person to soften that or to say it's delivery. Yeah. So the delivery may be a big piece of it.

Well, it's also recognized patterns because when you argue in relationships, frequently, you fall into a pattern where one person becomes the aggressor and the other person becomes the victim or the wounded. And both kind of get entrenched into their roles pretty quickly and pretty easily.

And then it's very difficult to move out of that because it's such an ingrained dynamic between the two.

So the way to counteract that, because he's also got antidotes to each one of these four horsemen. The antidote to criticism is a gentle startup where you basically say something positive about the person. So you know, you. You use an I statement.

So when you think about something, for instance, let's say there's a partner who is. Has a hard time being on time.

And instead of saying you're never on time, to say, you know, something that's important for me is to really be on time. You know, that's just an important thing to me. And I get so anxious when we're going to be late for something. It just makes me just really anxious.

That's a different way of delivering that message, which isn't criticizing the person. It's stating a need and it's making an I statement. So that's a way to do that.

Now, what a lot of people will do in the face of criticism is they'll shut down. So the second thing is stonewalling, where a person just stops communicating. So it could be the silent treatment.

That's what John does.

He does that.

Yeah, I'm guilty of that.

He's a shutter downer.

A lot of guys do that. There's a great bit that. Let me see. Oh, that Chris. I think Chris Rock used to talk about that.

That there's a thing that guys know that women don't always know. That there's a line you don't cross, that it's like, if it goes any further, I can't guarantee that I'm not going to lose it.

And so to keep from doing that, I'm going to kind of shut down. I'm going to get quiet, I'm going to walk away. I'm going to do something.

Now, on the one hand, that's an effective thing if you feel like you have a problem with temper. But another way is to communicate like, I'm starting to feel really angry and I want to slow everything down. Can we slow it down?

Because I find myself wanting to leave the room or walk away. We need to cool out or take a time out and revisit this. That's a way to begin to do that.

But guys are more often likely to do the stonewalling thing than women are. But it can happen. It can happen the other way too.

So just doing any kind of self soothing during that time to help you calm down is a way to keep from that stonewalling thing to happen.

Self Soothing as in what would be an example? I'm asking for personal reference.

Yeah, well, having a boundary to say, I'm getting really upset right now. So one of the things that I do.

So setting the boundary, just saying, look, I need to stop or take a timeout.

Yeah, we need to take a time out.

Well, I think also recognizing when it is that you need to take a timeout, like it's self regulation or this, the setting the boundary with yourself that, you know, if I'm reaching a certain level, then I need to. Because ultimately, even if you're in a relationship, you're responsible for your behavior.

So to have the sense to, you know, I'm approaching, you know, blow up time or, you know, whatever that we need to stop, we just need to stop and we need to separate and we need to go into separate corners.

Does that make sense?

This is a stereotype, but I think women are more comfortable with that face to face conflict where they are able to talk about conflict face to face because they know it's not usually going to come to blows. Men have the shared experience of you get to a point and it comes to blows and so they shut down. So it doesn't get that far.

They don't even know that that's what's going on, but that's kind of what's going on. So the ability to articulate, like I'm finding myself getting really upset or I'm finding myself getting really angry.

Guys will often have two stage change in terms of anger. Like there's anger and no anger. And I usually advise them to have a 10 point stage. So identify it when you're at 2 or 3 or 4 and communicate that.

Don't wait until you're at 6 or 7. If you're at 7, you're starting to do an action. I think we like.

I have to confess that's something I would actually have to try to pay attention to because yeah, like I said, I'm pretty much an on and off switch. So all of a sudden I'm like, I'm angry. I'm realizing I'm angry.

It's the red hair. It is.

I think that's coming.

It does take a long time for me to get mad though. It really does. So obviously I've got more switches than I think I do.

Yeah, yeah. But you can get to that point where you start to do something which seems beyond your control, you know, where you really lose it.

And I haven't been there very often in my life, but I've been there A few times. And there's this sense of being like, okay, it's on, you know, it's on. Yeah, yeah. And it's awful.

What do you think the importance of your exposure to your parents relationship or your primary caregiver's relationship is in developing your own relationship style?

Well, they're your model, you know, they're the ones that you learn things from. And right and wrong, sometimes you've learned something not to do. Like, my parents had a fair amount of conflict and it would be fueled by alcohol.

And I don't drink, so I became very conflict avoidant. So I tried not to have conflict.

So I learned a different dysfunctional pattern rather than that dysfunctional pattern, but that ability to address conflict in a way that was calm and a way that was respectful. It was a different kind of thing for me.

It was sort of the same with My parents were big personalities. There wasn't a lot of alcohol. I mean, they drank, but it wasn't necessarily alcohol fueled. It was egos and it was bravado.

And if they, I always say if they got. If they were on the same page, they were both charismatic, everything was great, it was fun.

But when they were not on the same page, it was, you know, kind of clash of the titans. There was no, you know, physical abuse, but there was, you know, I mean, neither of them would back down.

And so it really was just kind of until you yelled yourself out or at least whatever the dynamic was that played itself out. And then it would just kind of, you know, fizzle. And that might have. Through, you know, my brothers and I would just be kind of audience members.

Of, like, Morgan, there's a reason why you're a therapist.

So when I got into my own relationship, I mean, that was my model of, like, you know, to get your point across, you have to be loud, you have to be passionate, you have to be, you know, like, just very intense. And so. And my husband is the opposite. He shuts down when there's too much emotion or energy or anger or intensity. So he would shut down and I.

And it would. I would respond in the opposite way. So I would just be like, we gotta talk about this, like, longer and more.

And I gotta make my point in 500 different ways.

You are my girlfriend and your husband is me.

So we, you know, so I think I shared in this podcast that we were, you know, we ended up in couples therapy. And a lot of it was, you know, because of, I mean, that model. We had to change that model.

We had to change that because it was, you know, and a lot of it was. I had to change it. Whereas I thought we went into couples therapies so he could learn how to be more vocal and like, kind of meet the moment.

But that was the same thing Mike was saying earlier. Just you wanted to feel validated and both of you needed to be validated, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

I've been in three primary relationships I've been in. We've seen three different therapists for couples work, and it's like, what do they all have in common?

Me.

Yeah. So, yeah, it's. It's interesting. So that was two.

Yeah.

So the third one is defensiveness. So that's where it becomes like a ping pong match or a. Or what. What's the current game everyone's playing?

Pickleball.

Pickleball. Pickleball, man. It just goes back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. Point, counterpoint, you know. Hey, you. You left a mess over here.

Oh, yeah. Well, you met left a mess last week. So it. The message never gets in. There's just like a counter point going back and forth. And it does become.

No one can kind of let in. And that's the antidote to it, is to let in and take responsibility. You know what? You're right. I did make a mess. I did make a mess.

And I know that's irritating to you, so I'll try to do different next time. Thanks for reminding me. If you can get to that point where you can actually take the responsibility for it.

But that's a hard thing to do, especially if you feel like you're criticized. So you want to. Both partners want to work on a way that you can make those statements.

So that doesn't feel critical, but it feels more like this is my need. You know, it makes me crazy when this area is messy and it's just hard for me.

And if the other partner can say, you know what, I can take responsibility for that, I'll do a better job of making sure.

Well, that's a really good example of, like, the individual responsibility of the people in the relationship. It's not just relationship work. It's like you have to have the emotional maturity to be able to say you're wrong or that you did make a mistake.

And so if you are the person that just cannot do that or in a relationship with somebody that just cannot do that, then that is going to be really difficult to have some type of, I don't know, amicable way of resolving things.

It's a paradox because if your confidence and Your self esteem are really low. It's hard to let in any negative feedback because it just feels crushing as opposed to, you know, you.

Part of why you're in a relationship is to help feed that sense of self esteem. And so the paradox in there is how do you get stronger while also taking those bits of feedback that you can get from your partner?

That is a very good point.

And you want a partner that challenges you to some extent.

To some extent, not all the time about everything, but to some extent you want a partner that helps you live up to who it is that you want to be and reminds you of.

That the relationship should be greater than the sum of its parts. The people bring the individual parts. And something about the relationship. There is a power in and of itself that is the connection between the two.

And it should hopefully elevate the individuals to be able to achieve the things that they want to do, whether career or family or spiritual, you know, whatever it is. And that is a really cool thing about couplehood when it's, you know, when it's that.

And I think that's something that really cements like a long term connection.

And the other thing I was thinking was like in an argument, and I agree it's so important to be able to argue, not necessarily argue, but disagree, you know, constructively or. Well, because like the nature of an argument does definitely kind of set the tone for the potential for badness, I guess in a relationship.

And oftentimes in an argument, like the word badness, therapeutic term in an argument, people's character defects or their challenges come out. People can get entrenched or like John, my husband, he tends to. I think he would agree with me that he has difficulty with saying when he's wrong or.

And it's not that he has really difficulty saying that, but in an adversarial way. He just is not, he's not going to say it again, but maybe 20 minutes later he would come back and say, listen, I'm sorry or whatever.

Those intense moments really bring out some temperamental type of things in people that are pretty persistent.

I think accepting and admitting that you're wrong also, you know, it's growth in you first of all. But it also, I've found in my personal experiences that it just kind of creates a greater bond because there becomes more trust.

Yeah, it's vulnerable. I mean, it makes you vulnerable.

Vulnerability leads to intimacy. That's like a formula. And then the last one, the fourth one, which is that your relationship's kind of on life support at this Point. It's contempt.

It's contempt. You know, just like, I really hate you, you know, I just don't like you.

It's the worst. I mean, it's the worst place to be.

Yeah. And a relationship is usually just about to end at that point.

It should end at that point. Well, that's what you gotta call it.

Yeah. Some couples come to therapy at that point when they're at that point.

But the way to keep that from happening is to create a culture of appreciation and gratitude and reminding each other of, like, you know, what I really like about you, or you're looking really good today, or thank you so much for doing this. To learn each other's love language. To learn what the person says.

Just before we came over here, I know Kathy, part of it is time, and I had a lot of things that I was doing. I was going to do something else. And she said, I thought maybe you'd come in here and sit with me for a while.

And I thought, God, I'm doing this other thing. But I'm doing this thing. And then I'm like, okay, she's asking for.

So I can sit down and let's sit down and have a cup of coffee for a half hour and talk, you know?

And apparently I'm Mike and Mike's relationship.

So John will be like, well, you know, what are we eating for dinner? And they'll be like, well, you know. And I'll be like, well, why don't you. He's a chef. So I'll be like, why don't you make this?

And he says, well, why don't we make it together? And I'm like, oh, God, can't you just make it?

I've got very important things.

He loves to cook together. That is really one of his love languages. And I really do, too, but I'm like, but I could be doing so many other things.

Yeah, that's a quality time kind of a thing. Yeah, it is.

And we both enjoy it.

We should. We should have it. John and Kathy in sometime too.

They should come next time and talk about us without us here. We should have Dallian do a. Yeah.

Neither one would come, though.

Oh, my God. I know. They probably would. They wouldn't talk either.

You'd have 52 minutes of silence.

Dadalion would have to interview.

A psycho. Delicious conversation is meant for educational and entertainment purposes only. It is no substitute for therapy and should not be treated as such.

If you feel a need for real therapy, you should consult your local provider. Google therapy or Therapists in your area. Check with Community Mental Health or a suicide hotline if you are feeling suicidal.

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