Welcome to Where it's AT | the Architectural Technology Podcast

In this episode, host Jon Clayton MCIAT speaks with Harry Pangli FCIAT about his journey into the world of construction disputes and Expert Witness work.

Harry shares insight into what it takes to investigate building failures, analyse evidence, and provide impartial expert opinions for courts and tribunals. Conversation also explores post-Grenfell regulation, AI in the built environment, and the skills that make great Architectural Technologists.

An insightful look at a specialist career path that combines technical expertise, investigation and problem-solving.

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Harry Pangli FCIAT RIBA MCIArb SAAE

A Chartered Architectural Technologist and Architect with over 18 years of experience in the construction industry working on small domestic projects to large residential/commercial/industrial developments in the UK. Since early 2018, Harry has developed his career in the construction dispute sector of the construction industry now working for Expert Architect Limited. He is a Fellow of CIAT, a Member of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators, and a Senior Associate of the Academy of Experts. In addition to his studies in Architecture, Harry has completed his MSc in Construction Law and Dispute Resolution and holds a GVC certificate as a commercial drone pilot. Harry represents CIAT on the CIC Liability Panel, CIC ADR Panel, and BSI committee for flexible sheets for waterproofing and water vapour control. In addition to representing CIAT on external panels, Harry also sits on the CIAT Liability Panel and is a member of the CIAT Principal Designer steering group.

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00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro

00:40 A Week in the Life

01:49 Variety vs Practice Life

02:37 What Is an Expert Witness

03:25 Limits of Expertise

04:02 Document Review at Scale

05:05 From Review to Reports

05:26 Site Visits and Deconstruction

06:05 Explaining to the Court

06:59 Meetings and Oral Evidence

07:48 Retraining for Expert Work

08:23 Masters in Construction Law

09:29 Biggest Challenges

09:57 Handling Difficult People

11:38 Tailoring Communication

13:17 Industry Shifts and Safety Law

14:42 AI and Competence

19:08 What Makes a Great Architectural Technologist

20:53 Lifelong Learning in Architectural Technology

22:35 Gadgets, Takeaways, and Wrap

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Your accumulated experience is what makes you valuable as an expert witness.

To operate effectively as an expert witness, you need a substantial body of professional experience to draw upon. You cannot provide a credible, independent opinion on matters you have never encountered in practice. Harry spent nearly two decades working across the construction industry before transitioning into dispute work. It is that depth of technical knowledge — built up over years of designing buildings, solving problems, and understanding construction — that gives your opinion weight in legal proceedings.

You must develop the ability to communicate across very different audiences.

Technical expertise alone will not carry you far if you cannot communicate it clearly and adaptively. You will need to translate complex building science into language that a judge, barrister, or layperson can follow. Equally, you will encounter difficult personalities on site — contractors who are hostile or defensive — and you will need to adjust your approach accordingly. Rather than meeting resistance with resistance, you should step back, consider the other person's perspective, and find a way to move the situation forward constructively.

You must commit to lifelong learning and approach new tools with a critical eye.

The built environment is constantly evolving — new materials, updated legislation, and emerging technologies mean that your education never truly ends. You should be regularly undertaking CPD and staying across industry changes. Harry also cautions that when it comes to AI, you must not simply accept what it produces without scrutiny. If you are not competent enough to check the output yourself, you risk putting your professional reputation — and potentially your clients — in a very difficult position.

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Connect with Harry Pangli on LinkedIn.

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Want to learn more about Architectural Technology, how to progress your career, or how to work with a Chartered AT? Head to architecturaltechnology.com to find out more

We welcome your feedback, so please keep in touch and email all feedback to [email protected]

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Podcast recorded and edited by: Jon Clayton [Podcasting]

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Disclaimer

The contents and views expressed by individuals in the Where it's AT podcast are their own, and do not necessarily represent the views of the companies they work for, or CIAT (the Host). This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered as advice.

The episode transcript is AI-generated. Typos or incorrect words may still be present.

Jon Clayton MCIAT: I'm Jon Clayton, Chartered Architectural

Technologist, and your host for this episode of Where It's At.

We're joined by Harry Pangli, a Chartered Architectural Technologist and architect.

Harry has nearly 20 years of construction industry experience, and

since 2018 has developed his career in the construction dispute sector.

In this episode, he shares his experiences as an Architectural

Technologist and will tell us a bit about his work as an expert witness.

Harry, thanks for joining us today.

Harry Pangli FCIAT: No, thank you for inviting me.

Jon Clayton MCIAT: Oh, you're very welcome.

We're, we're glad to have you on the show.

Harry, to begin, I think a good place to start would be if you could maybe

tell us, um, a bit about your typical work week, what that looks like.

Harry Pangli FCIAT: I don't actually have a typical week

given what I do as an expert.

Every week is very different.

If I give you an example as of this week, um, you know, I started off on Monday

responding to particulars of claim.

It's this very long 80-page document involving external wall defects.

On top of that, I'm then analyzing about 6,000 photographs

and taking a sample of that.

Tomorrow I'll be doing some report writing on some investigations I

did earlier on, uh, in the year to do with water ingress, so a

completely different issue altogether.

And then on Wednesday, I'll be in Norwich carrying out inspections.

Thursday I'll be, um, carrying out inspections somewhere in London to

do with a building that caught fire.

And then on Friday I'm in Manchester looking at defective showers.

And that working week will never be repeated again.

So next week I'll be doing something completely different and

maybe in a different part of the country, looking at a completely

different, uh, defect or issue.

So it's very different to where I was when I was in a design practice,

where you could be on a, a, the same project for a couple of years.

And so there is some regularity and some sort of, repeated work that

you would do throughout the week.

But where I am right now and what I do right now, it's very different

Jon Clayton MCIAT: it sounds it, yeah.

It sounds like if you're the sort of person that likes variety in the role

y- you seem to be getting a lot of that with, with the variety of different

things that you're tackling week to week.

And I mean, you are an expert witness.

Y- you mentioned a little bit there about that.

Can you tell us a bit more specifically about that aspect of your work?

Because as you say, it's, it's very different to the traditional Architectural

Technologist role in the design practice.

Obviously within the limitations of what you're able to share.

Harry Pangli FCIAT: Oh, of course.

I mean, I suppose a, an expert witness it is effectively someone

who has lots of experience in a particular field who can opine on that

experience and provide an independent, impartial, uh, professional opinion.

when it's to do with well, in our case, it would be to do with architecture

and the built environment and also it's in, in the context of legal disputes.

And so the role is, is quite broad, believe it or not.

I can only advise and can only provide an expert opinion

on matters that I've had experience in dealing with throughout my design career.

So a graduate really couldn't do an expert witness role, but someone who's worked in

the industry for 15 plus years could opine on that experience to then advise on the

technical matters or contractual matters.

So I think for me, I, I could never advise on airport design

'cause I've never designed it.

So there are limitations in what you can do and what you can't do.

The role typically involves, reviewing a large amount of project information.

So if you imagine as a architectural technologist in practice you may

be on a project for two years.

Now, you will accumulate a large amount of correspondence, drawings

reviewing lots of other consultants' information and subcontractor drawings.

And so for, for that duration, you could end up with like, you

know, easy 200,000 documents.

We're expected to review some of that or a sample of that within a matter of weeks.

We, we almost need to understand that two-year process

within a week effectively.

And so Being an expert witness means y-y-you have to be very good

at at forensically analyzing work done by others, understanding the

narrative that you're following, and be able to kind of shift through a

lot of, let's say, uh, unnecessary information to really get to the source

of what you're trying to look at.

And so once you've reviewed all this information you're, you're

then pretty much preparing a evidence-based expert report.

And so, um, that expert report will then sort of opine on your analysis through

what you've done in terms of documentation review, like more of a desktop review.

It may involve site visits, so then you may go to site and

you may deconstruct buildings.

The one element that we're seeing a lot of is, is obviously external

wall claims and external wall issues.

you'd go to site, you would deconstruct the external wall system to understand

what's wrong with it, typically to do with, let's say, cavity barriers.

And then you would analyze those defects, and that's where it's really

interesting for me, 'cause once you get through shifting through a, a

large amount of data, and you've captured a lot of issues that you've

seen on site, you're then trying to analyze it, and that's where you can

actually do lots of sketches, drawings.

Because ultimately, as an expert um, your duty, if you were to do,

let's say, go into litigation.

So if you're, if you're going from an expert advisor role to then an expert

witness role and you're in litigation, your duty then is to the courts.

So you're trying to l- trying to get the tribunal, the court,

to understand the technical issues, um, and narrow them down.

And so through the analysis part of what you do You would be involved in doing

sketches, tables, anything that can actually take all that sort of, let's

say, 200,000 sort of documents and issues and make them quite easily understood by

someone who is not an architect, or an Architectural Technologist, who is not

a structural engineer or fire engineer.

Obviously, we wouldn't get involved in those disciplines,

but generally that's the process that other experts would follow.

And so yeah, uh, the other part of the role is attending lots of meetings,

um, and being involved in sort of meetings with your instructing solicitor

meetings with, uh, the barrister.

It could involve meetings with your counterparts for other parties in expert

discussions and they get very technical.

And then if your, you know, if, if, if your dispute does not settle

and you do end up in litigation, adjudication or, uh, arbitration,

then you may be giving oral evidence.

And so, Yeah, effectively, y-you have to be very good at sort of your communication

skills, which I'm failing on a little bit now 'cause I've been stuttering.

Jon Clayton MCIAT: You're doing great.

Harry Pangli FCIAT: so there's, there's a lot to being an expert, um,

and you are effectively retraining.

So someone like myself, let's say in 2018 when I entered this industry there

was lots of training that I had to do.

You know, there's lots of kind of change in mindset, kind of taking the discipline

and, you know, my extensive, let's say, uh, technical knowledge And attention to

detail, all the skills that an AT has, and focusing it in a very different way.

So that does take a while to kinda get that mindset.

And as part of that sort of change in mindset, I decided to do a

master's in construction law.

And the reason behind that is not to advocate 'cause you can't as an expert

but it was more to do with understanding the processes in a lot more detail.

Lots of jargon, so you'll hear lots of, procedural matters and, you know, um,

that instructing solicitor will discuss.

And, you know, quite often you, you, you'll be sat there thinking, "I don't

really know what you're saying." You know, you're using certain terms and

processes that I don't understand, and I, and I think what the course had

done is it's given me the awareness, uh, and understanding so I can be

more useful, uh, to my role as a expert advisor or expert witness

Jon Clayton MCIAT: That sounds like a really interesting

role that you have, Harry.

As you say, not something for graduates.

This is going to be something that, um, i-if you've got more experienced

technologists that might be interested in, in this type of role, it would be, it

would be for them rather than graduates.

Interesting, but not without its challenges, no doubt.

Professionally, what would you say is perhaps one of the biggest

challenges or struggles that you have?

Harry Pangli FCIAT: There, there are a few, um, and I think I've, uh, alluded

to some of them, such as, you know, being efficient in reviewing a, a, a

sheer quan-quantity of documents and information and being able to kind

of shift through that to find the information you need to understand

and be able to give an opinion on.

one that I haven't quite touched on when I was discussing the role of expert

witness is dealing with, um, difficult individuals, uh, and communication.

at, at every level, you know, whether it's, uh, discussing matters with

instructing solicitors to then dealing with contractors on site you're h- you're

dealing with very different personalities.

You're dealing with very different people at different levels of understanding.

And so the trick here is trying to communicate and adapt the way

you approach someone in order to get the best out of the situation.

And I think that's my biggest challenge, is, uh, you c- you can never quite find

a technique that works for everyone.

You're constantly having to always try and, uh, step back, rethink, "How do I

deal with this particular individual?" And what I mean by deal with them is

more be able to communicate effectively to force all to work together, 'cause

there'll be certain sites that you will turn up to where the contractor

may be a, an adverse party, and they might not want you there, and so they

can get quite aggressive, uh, or quite combative, uh, or quite defensive.

And it doesn't help is if you were to rise to the occasion.

So generally, you're, you're, you're trying to find different

ways to breaking that barrier down.

And that is a challenge that I have, and I don't think I'll ever get to the

top of that or bottom of that challenge or top of that challenge rather.

You know, um, I wouldn't be able to, to harness that skill

because people are very different.

But what I can do is be mindful of what are the issues at hand.

So if someone's being aggressive, why are they being aggressive?

You know, how can I diffuse that?

If someone's not quite understanding, work out how I can phrase things differently.

You know, if I can't phrase it differently, can I draw it

maybe to get them to understand?

So that, that's I, I would say my biggest challenge.

Jon Clayton MCIAT: That's something that I think a lot of the, the,

the listeners are gonna relate to because I think that is, it's such a

big challenge generally for people.

Uh, certainly working in complex projects, I've definitely, um,

experienced plenty of similar communication challenges, um, working on

architectural projects over the years.

I think you're right though, that the, the point that you made there about

being mindful about, trying to tailor your communication style and trying to

look at it from the other party's point of view, um, as you say, it's, it's not

gonna work seamlessly every time, but I think at least having an awareness that

different people are looking at it through a different lens is absolutely gonna help.

And if you can sort of tailor your communication style, uh, to suit

that, to try and smooth the way that's gonna be better than just sort

of plowing ahead, um, dealing with every- everybody in the same way.

Harry Pangli FCIAT: Oh, 100%.

I mean, everyone's an individual and ev- everyone has a right to feel the way they

feel, and I think it's, it's, you know, sometimes one person has to understand

that they need to try and step back and try and make the most of the situation.

So yeah, I think, I think being mindful is very key

Jon Clayton MCIAT: So thinking about the wider industry, what would you

say is changing in the industry at the moment that perhaps we

should be paying more attention to?

Harry Pangli FCIAT: So we have, as we probably all know and everyone watching

this would know, we've, we've, we've got a big change in landscape when it

comes to legislation from the tragic, tragic events of Grenfell and the

introduction of Building Safety Act comes with it lots of not only legislative

change, but changing guidance and the way we see competence in the industry.

but I think equally or equally as important, I would say, is we, we still

have the industry moving forwards in terms of advancing technology and such.

Um, AI is certainly starting to kind of integrate itself in the, in, in, in

the industry, and I think we need to be very mindful of how we introduce that

into what we do to a day-to-day basis.

So, from my perspective, I obviously look at, you know, prof- let's say professional

negligence or standard of care, et cetera.

So for me, it'd be how can one introduce AI and harness its, its

power, but not be in a situation where you end up making mistakes or

you overlook what's been sent out.

I've got a Yeah, I've got a slight analogy I suppose I could use.

Not quite analogy, more of an example.

So from my experience, uh, in the industry working for different firms,

you know, you, you used to, uh, join an architectural practice and you'll

have an individual, let's say, called Peter, and Peter's a technical person.

And you're, you're told: follow what Peter says and does and produces.

He develops the details, and you're meant to take those details

and add it to your project.

And you're not meant to question it, Peter, 'cause Peter's

the guru in, in the practice.

And so you can see individuals taking those details, blindly adding them

to their project, not really quite considering the impact it has on the

particular project, um, not seeing the context in which they're applying those

particular details or understanding the various lines on, on those

details and how they all were formed.

And obviously that's changed somewhat with, you know, the competence that we've

got and the framework that's in place now.

Individuals have to really understand what they're drawing.

But I see we're having the same scenario come back with AI.

So AI is effectively Peter, and what we're doing is we're going to AI

Peter and fully relying on what AI Peter's telling us and not checking it.

And I think when-- if the industry, let's say, you know, CIAT as an institute, you

know, as AI's been introduced, CIAT will hopefully at some point in the future be

able to provide us with, um, some good guidance as to how can we safely integrate

AI without making ourselves or putting ourselves in a vulnerable pos- position

and in upholding the integrity of what an architectural technologist is and not

going with the flow and saying, "Right, okay, AI Peter shows us the way and we'll

just follow it and see where it ends up."

Jon Clayton MCIAT: I love that example.

I think with that issue, Harry, um, I think one of the things where we get into,

um, a sticky situation with AI is when we're over-relying on those tools, um,

to produce work that we're not competent enough to actually check ourselves.

Whereas if we're using it to do a task that we could actually competently do

it ourselves, like for instance, like you're writing a report, then if you

use the AI as a tool to save time, but then you're able to check it and you

have that competency to check the work, then within reason, that should be okay.

But the danger, I think, is when we're using AI tools to produce work that

we're not qualified or competent to check so that we don't actually, um,

understand really whether it's right or not, as you say, just taking that and

not questioning it and, um, using it or submitting it with a planning application

or whatever it is, um, you could get yourself into some trouble potentially.

Harry Pangli FCIAT: Yeah, most definitely.

I, I think, um, uh, I think you, you highlighted planning as an example.

And I think when we look at planning and planning policy, AI, 'cause I've,

I've tr- I've tested this with AI or different platforms of AI, um,

finds it quite difficult to kind of understand planning policy in

the context in which it's applied.

So ultimately, um, the AI platforms I've used have always kind of given

a very different answer to what the policy's actually trying to tell you.

And that comes down to the, the fact that it's poorly written, the policy, you know.

Um, and AI is quite intelligent, so you've got this intelligent source trying to

interpret something that's poorly written.

It doesn't quite work.

Um, so I can never, never quite see how, I suppose, in the future

a homeowner just using AI to produce a whole set of planning

drawings would never work, you know.

Someone like ourselves would need to be involved to understand and

decipher the complexity of a planning policy document for a local authority.

Jon Clayton MCIAT: Oh, that's good.

There's, there's definitely, uh, still a future for architectural technologists.

We're not getting replaced by AI anytime soon.

Harry Pangli FCIAT: No, definitely not.

Jon Clayton MCIAT: And, um, talking of Architectural Technologists,

Harry, um, what do you think makes a great Architectural Technologist?

Harry Pangli FCIAT: There, there's actually quite a lot.

An Architecture Technologist, I suppose, has, um, throughout their

career, so I suppose education is one, you know, a graduate coming out will

have this foundation knowledge, but throughout their course, they would've

learnt sort of some forensic ability to be able to sort of search for

products and how you kind of decipher, and problem-solving being another.

you know, being able to visualize complex interfaces.

And they just build on that skill through their experience.

And so an experienced AT, what makes them great is the b- the, the foresight

in being able to visualize where the building's going technically, being able

to understand and point out the technical difficulties in the building science part.

So, if we're looking at building envelopes, um, being able to say, "Well,

if you put that membrane in this position, then you could cause interstitial

condensation and trap it," you know.

Or, "This particular junction's very confusing. We need to do some drawings."

And they'll, they'll learn different communication skills to problem-solve,

um, that particular junction.. A great AT is someone who has that foresight

and has that kind of problem-solving skillset and being curious.

You know, if you're not curious about what you're doing, then you're

not gonna keep digging deeper and being thorough in what you're doing.

So yeah.

I mean, that's, that's kinda my short summary of what makes a good, uh,

or great Architectural Technologist.

Jon Clayton MCIAT: Thanks for sharing that, Harry.

What's one thing that you wish more people understood about Architectural Technology?

Harry Pangli FCIAT: It's forever evolving.

So methods and materials are constantly being developed, and that as an AT, you

can't, y-y-you can't just think you, you've done your education, you've got

a bit of experience, you, you sit there.

You know, it's, it's a lifelong learning experience.

And I think if, you know, people understanding that ATs will be constantly

doing CPD, understanding and applying new techniques and developing them.

You know, I was, um… I did a talk at, um, South Bank University, uh, last

week, and there was this, uh, professor sat in the audience, and he was just

telling me how he's trying to develop new, a, a new sort of external wall

skin and, and I think that's great.

I mean, this is what we need, and I, I think what people need to understand

that technologists will always be individuals that will keep on top of

changes in industry and understand how to best apply it in the context in, you

know, their particular project at hand.

So yeah.

I wish people would understand that we're, we're just not individuals that

have completed our design, um, uh, you know, and we'll stop right there.

You know, we'll, we'll continue.

We'll, we'll dig deeper.

We'll make the project as, as safe and more comfortable

for individuals as possible.

Jon Clayton MCIAT: I completely agree with that, Harry.

Yeah.

It's a constant learning journey really.

It's impossible to learn absolutely everything, so it is a constant kind of,

um, development throughout your career, um, picking up new skills all the time.

one of the things that I think we all sort of share a love of as

Technologists is, is the latest tech.

Do you have, um, a favorite piece of tech or a, a favorite gadget

that you could tell us about, Harry?

Harry Pangli FCIAT: lots.

As an expert, you, you rely on your gadgets and your tech to

be able to forensically assess and understand buildings.

So, you know, I have, I have thermal cameras.

That's probably my, my favorite I'd, I'd say my favorite thermal cameras.

And I've got cameras that you, you can hold by in, in your hand.

I've got a thermal camera that you attach to the drone and that you

fly up and you can assess, um, roofs and, and external wall systems.

Um, but the amazing thing about a thermal camera is it's, it's not only

to do with heat loss, but it also qui-quite easily identifies where

you've got wet patches and water leaks.

And so it's, it's quite a versatile tool I, I would say.

But then I have loads of other little gadgets like, you know,

um, digital levels and, um, yeah.

I, I, I think I am the gadget person when I'm on site.

Um, but I think my, my thermal camera seems to be used more so than anything

else, um, given, uh, the increase in water-related defects that I'm looking at

Jon Clayton MCIAT: Oh, that sounds very cool.

Are th- are they quite easy to use, thermal cameras?

Harry Pangli FCIAT: they are easy to use, but not so easy to understand and apply.

So anyone can switch on a camera and point it, but I think understanding

and reading an image takes time.

Um, and I think I, I've done my category one in thermography to kind of get…

not to become a thermographer, but to understand the imagery and understand

if I'm using a camera, what to watch out for, like reflections, um,

adjusting your, your data set on your temperature differences on your bar.

And not getting caught out by false data or having a device that's poorly set up.

So yeah, I would say if, if you're going to use a, a thermal camera then,

um, I, I think you need some training on it, uh, to really be able to get

the best use of, out of the imagery, especially if you're gonna rely on it.

Jon Clayton MCIAT: That makes sense.

I mean, otherwise it, it would be that classic, um,

all the gear, no idea scenario

Harry Pangli FCIAT: Yes,

Jon Clayton MCIAT: is not great

Harry Pangli FCIAT: No, I think if you buy a tool, um, you

need to know how to use it.

Especially levels, believe it or not.

Calibrate your levels.

You know, people have these fancy levels where they can, uh, adjust the, the

datum point or the, uh, the baseline figure, and especially on digital ones.

And you, you need to check it.

Every time you use a level, you put it on something you know what

level it is at in order to make sure that you've, you've calibrated it.

And it's like with any equipment, calibrate your equipment.

Never blindly use it 'cause you'll get caught out.

There's this one expert instruction where, uh, an expert used a sort of moisture

detector, um, but it was an intrusive one, so it had two little prongs.

And they put it into the top of a roof not knowing there was a

piece of foil within the build-up.

And so they, they put it in a number of places, and they were

advising, uh, in their report that the whole roof or the entire roof

had water beneath the, the membrane.

Um, and when we, we opened up a few locations and found

out it was actually dry.

Um, so I think a, a good example is to you really need to understand the equipment

you're using, um, and the impact.

A- and the way you use it and the impact that other materials can

have on that equipment that you use.

Jon Clayton MCIAT: Absolutely.

Thanks for sharing that.

That was a great example.

Um, Harry, what would be the main thing that you'd like everyone to

take away from our conversation today?

Harry Pangli FCIAT: That Architecture Technologists can

make very good technical experts.

And their discipline, their thoroughness, their curiosity are all great skill

sets that I think many members should consider, uh, later on in their

career and, um, and become experts.

'Cause believe it or not, there's, there's not many, uh, Architectural Technologist,

uh, expert witnesses out there practicing.

And I think that's a bit of a loss to that, that, that sector, um, because

of our technical knowledge, uh, and our skillset to be very forensic

Jon Clayton MCIAT: that sounds like, um, a great opportunity actually for a lot of

Architectural Technologists out there that might be looking for something different.

Perhaps they should, um, reach out to you, Harry, and, um, you know, if

they're thinking about moving into that line of work, would you be able to give

them a few tips on how to get started?

Harry Pangli FCIAT: Yeah.

Al-always happy to, to, uh, signpost in, in the right directions.

Um, but,

uh, yeah, uh, more than happy to, uh, provided they're willing to throw

themselves into it, 'cause it is, it's a whole new learning environment.

Jon Clayton MCIAT: Harry, this has been an absolute pleasure.

Thank you so much for joining us on Where It's At.

And, um, yeah, thank you for your time.

It's been a, a really interesting conversation

Harry Pangli FCIAT: No, thank you for, for having me and, and allowing

me to, to share my, my journey.