Welcome to Where it's AT | the Architectural Technology Podcast

Ann Vanner FCIAT speaks with Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT, a Chartered Architectural Technologist, PhD researcher and lecturer at Robert Gordon University, about Women in AT, a free, inclusive community that connects, supports, and champions women in Architectural Technology. Magdelena describes the need for a safe space and shared voice in a male-dominated industry. They discuss barriers including limited understanding of what Architectural Technology offers, lack of tailored workplace support for progressing to Chartership (especially around maternity and non-linear career paths), loneliness (including from remote working), and the need for more structured support such as practical HR/legal guidance. They discuss values-led career development, allies (including men), and success defined by fulfillment and supportive community.

Ann Vanner FCIAT

Ann Vanner FCIAT is an accomplished Chartered Architectural Technologist, designer, and research consultant. She runs Healing Buildings, a design practice and educational consultancy dedicated to integrating health and wellbeing into architectural practice. Ann is also the co-founder of The School of Biophilia, an educational platform exploring the relationship between nature, learning, and the built environment. Working with communities, educators, and built environment professionals, Ann focuses on how nature-connected design can improve health, wellbeing, and environmental performance in the places people live, learn, and gather. As a Living Future Accredited professional and experienced academic, she combines practice, research, and education to advance more regenerative approaches to the built environment.

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT

Magdalena is a Chair of the Scottish Ecological Design Association (SEDA), an organisation promoting the design of communities, environments, projects, systems, services, materials and products which enhance the quality of life and are not harmful to living species and planetary ecology. She is a Chartered Architectural Technologist (MCIAT) with over a decade of industry experience, currently a lecturer and PhD researcher at the School of Architecture and Built Environment at Robert Gordon University. Magdalena’s main interests centre around psycho-social determinants of health in the context of housing and domestic retrofit, low-impact construction, bioeconomy strategy and understanding of relationships between people and the built environment. Having good understanding of the policy as well as the technical context of construction and retrofit of housing, she recently co-lead preliminary research on behalf of the Scottish Government on the Heat and Energy Efficiency Technical Suitability Assessment (HEETSA). Magdalena is a member of the Living Futures Institute, Straw Building UK and leads Women in Architectural Technology group in Scotland enabling discussions and co-designing solutions to inclusivity in the built environment industry.

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00:00 Introduction

01:20 Meet Magdalena Blazusiak and Women in AT

02:12 What the Community Does

04:22 Why the Network Started

05:33 Three Gaps to Fix

07:16 Barriers and Misconceptions

09:17 Chartership and Maternity Leave

12:23 Friendships, Loneliness and WFH

15:48 How the Community Helps

16:59 Advice for Early Career Women

22:34 Success in Ten Years

25:24 Mens Role in the Conversation

30:15 Practical Support and HR Help

36:40 Start Earlier Schools and Uni

41:11 Pride in the Profession

42:28 Closing Thanks and Outro

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Build a supportive community — don't go it alone

Women in Architectural Technology may find themselves as the only woman in the room. Having a community outside of work where you can share experiences, ask for advice, and sense-check situations makes a real difference. It helps fight loneliness, builds confidence, and gives you people who understand what you're going through.

Know your values and follow your passion

Architectural Technology can be whatever you make of it. Rather than sticking to a narrow job description, take time to work out what matters to you — your values, strengths, and interests. These act like a personal compass for your career. When you know what drives you, it's easier to spot opportunities and make choices that feel right.

The path doesn't have to be straight

Women often take sideways steps in their careers — whether because of life changes like having children, or simply following new interests. That's not a weakness. Those different experiences widen your view and make you stronger. Being open to a non-linear path, and getting the right support along the way (like help with chartership during maternity leave), can lead to a fulfilling career.

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Know someone who could benefit from listening? Subscribe and share this episode with your network.

Know someone with a story to tell or a topic to explore? Email us at atpodcast@ciat.global to nominate a guest or a topic.

Want to learn more about Architectural Technology, how to progress your career, or how to work with a Chartered AT? Head to architecturaltechnology.com to find out more

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Podcast recorded and edited by: Jon Clayton [Podcasting]

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Disclaimer

The contents and views expressed by individuals in the Where it's AT podcast are their own, and do not necessarily represent the views of the companies they work for or the Host. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered as advice.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: When women get architectural

technology, they really get it.

If you cut them in half, they, it would say architectural technology through them.

They'd like a stick of rock.

They really do.

Uh, get what it is, and are exceptionally good at it.

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: It sometimes feels very lonely being the only woman

in the room, so having the ability to go outside the room and and have

a community that you can turn to, it can be, it can be extremely important.

Welcome to Where it's AT.

The podcast from CIAT shining a spotlight on the future focused design

discipline of architectural technology.

Know someone who could benefit from listening.

Subscribe and share this episode with your network.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Hello, I'm Ann Vanner, chartered architectural

technologist, designer, educator and founder of Healing Buildings and the

co-founder of The School of Biophilia.

You can check out the links in the show notes for more information,

but I'm gonna be your host for today's episode of Where it's at.

March the eighth.

International Women's Day is a global day celebrating the

social, economic, and cultural and political achievements of women.

But why stop on the eighth?

Joining me today is my friend Magdalena Ack Chartered architectural technologist,

PhD researcher lecturer at Robert Gordon University, and the founder

of Women in AT This Network is about connecting, supporting, and championing

women in architectural technology, not just across CIAT, Scotland's East

region, where Magdalena is based.

More widely across the CIA's Scotland West region and beyond,

even to Lancashire, where I'm based.

And it's a growing community and it isn't limited by geography and it's what's

inspiring network that can be found in my conversation with Magdalena today.

So good morning.

Good morning.

How are you?

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: I am very well, thank you, and

yeah, I'm delighted to be here.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Uh, that's wonderful.

So let's get started.

So for the benefit of our listeners who may not be familiar with a network,

maybe can you start by telling us what the women in AT Network actually is?

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: Um, absolutely, and I think it's really important to,

to note that it's more of a community.

It's a community nurturing connection.

So we meet regularly to chat with other women architectural

technologists about things that are important to us professionally

to offer support, exchange ideas.

We meet, to engage with other women whose work could change how we see

ourselves as women and as professionals.

Um, I'll tell you a little bit about the values as well, uh,

and why that community exists.

So is there to offer support to allow women to develop their career in the way

certain their individual circumstances.

So it's not just trying to fit within rigid and only defined job profiles,

um, but focusing on the value of our knowledge, passion that we bring into

workplace and our professionalism.

I really do believe there's so much more Tet than people sometimes think.

And you know, one can make it into anything they wish.

Whether focusing on technical aspects or softer skills, combining

culture and heritage, our connection with Belt and natural environment.

And I wish for women to have a choice and not to be encouraged to retain

work life balance in the situations where life often seeps into our work.

We sometimes just don't have any control over it.

another important point to mention is that, um, the

network is open to everybody.

Um, all women ats, um, whether they are members of CAT or not,

but also to those who work.

With or want to support women at, uh, we run some events that are open to everyone,

but our chats, are reserved for women as a safe space to consult and to share.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: That sounds absolutely fabulous.

And what sort of gaps did you feel needed to be filled within the profession?

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: You already know that story,

Ann Vanner FCIAT: I do, I do.

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: but I think it's really important to mention it

and, and go back a couple of years, when the idea first originated.

So when I first took on the knowledge exchange role for CIT Scotland East,

I wondered why there were not many women, um, in a fairly active committee.

So I asked the question, how many charter women eighties do you have in Scotland?

And at the start of 2024, we had 245 charter eighties who

were men and 18 who were women.

I was one of them.

And to put numbers to it, it felt so real.

So I looked at the student numbers, remembering that roughly third

of my class were were women.

Um, although I knew that not all of them stayed in a profession.

So in 2024, we had 104 men and 51 women, which means over a third

of student members were women.

That made me think what happens when, when women leave education and is, is there

some relevance stumbling block there?

And that's what led to the creation of this community right now.

Three gaps very quickly.

So I touched on the aspect of the safe space and we have explored it with our

wonderful facilitators, Kirsti Gilchrist and Lindsey Henderson recently under the

headline, which I loved you, you are not imagining it and it is not your fault.

So we've talked about individual experiences and systemic challenges

women face, and how invalidation of those experiences diminishes confidence.

Um.

This kind of takes us to the next point on finding our individual and collective

voice in a male dominated in industry.

It's, it is again, about having that confidence to communicate our

needs, to speak about our values and aspirations, and knowing how to.

to achieve those and to get help when needed.

And sometimes it's easier to ask another woman for help.

So again, the community is there to offer that support.

Um, but it's also about empowering women to stand up for, for those

values and stand up for themselves.

And the last point, I think, um, would be, again, confidence.

So.

All those previous points that I mentioned, they reflect on how we

can work towards fostering women's individual confidence by knowing

someone has their back, by knowing how someone else resolved similar

challenge and, and seeing other women in similar and more senior roles as well.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: It is.

It is.

It is.

It's often about just having someone to.

Run something past, isn't it Sort of saying, I've just heard this

over, I've just experienced this.

Is this, is this normal?

Is this right?

Uh, so go on.

From your perspective as a chartered architectural technologist and

lecturer, what are some of the barriers women still face within the

discipline of architectural technology?

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: You know, it's a bit weird because

it doesn't feel like it changed over the course of my career much.

Although you would have expected it to change significantly because

there's, it's such a hot topic.

so I really think that at the entry point, it's the misunderstanding at what degree

in architectural technology can offer.

We had a discussion with younger women on how they felt teachers are

not encouraging girls to consider technical or engineering jobs in high

schools, and how it requires resilience and willingness to challenge these.

Perceptions.

Um.

At RGUI teach advanced material technology and low impact construction.

And really the topics we discuss in the studio are anything from the role of the

build environment and the response to stress, what we can learn from nature.

We touch on biophilia, biomimicry, we look at health promotion

and how we maintain health.

Uh, talking about pathogenesis as means to understanding how we can stay healthy.

Um.

We look at building physics, so more technical aspects, but also

cultural connection of people with land and pre-industrial revolution

times to understand techniques that are inherently ecological and that

foster innovation inspired by nature.

So really we, we do need to keep talking about these possibilities

that are rooted in technical understanding, but not as limiting

factors of expertise, but sort of a.

Foundation or a springboard to translate in what we see around us into language

that people can relate to and understand.

so I, I do feel that help is required for women to see these possibilities

and navigate complex career pathways.

Sort of second one.

is back to the support and confidence.

So if, if women are not getting adequate support to progress to Chartership, then

this is why we're not seeing so many women chartered our at in, in across the uk.

this comes with certain understanding that the pathway, the trajectory of women

navigating employment can completely different to real realities of men.

A T accreditation pathway is, is sort of non-linear.

I talk a lot with, with younger people about it.

It gives the flexibility, sort of opens up possibilities, but

it can also be quite limiting and put the pressure on the applicant.

often in the industry here, that takes about nine years to qualify

as an architect Well, it took me the same time to qualify as chartered

architectural technologist as well, having allowed sufficient time and

practice to demonstrate my competence.

And I, and I really think that we need to be clear about this, that

the support is needed there, but it needs to be tailored it is a process.

Requires extreme commitment to become chartered.

So, you know, having done my own evidence gathering while I was on maternity leave,

I can see how well you know this, this can easily drop off women's priority list.

Uh, so there's no support in the workplace.

Because there are no other at employers might not understand

the process or what support is needed to progress to chartership.

It becomes a huge stumbling block and, and sort of corresponds with,

with the numbers I've, I've mentioned.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: I was just gonna reflect on what you're saying

about, uh, things haven't changed.

I wrote my dissertation on, uh, women in.

The built environment.

Um, then about 20 years later, I was asked to read another dissertation

from a student who I was mentoring, and she was, she basically wrote the

same dissertation that I'd written.

I just thought, how have we not moved the dial at all?

I think you make a really interesting point there about sort of, um.

The, the, the journeys.

And the pathways, and I think there's, there might be even a

little opportunity sort of to work with women on the maternity leave.

So having taught a number of architectural technologists, um, I think possibly

three or four of them have actually got round to sorting out their chartership

when they've been on maternity leave.

Uh, maybe there is something, uh, we can, uh, do there sort of

mother, baby, and chartership.

Coffee shops or something like that.

I don't know.

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: Yeah, I, I, I love the idea.

Absolutely.

And it, and it keeps you still in the loop as well.

And you know, at the end of maternal, you often, uh, come back to the work.

Place and have some, um, keeping in touch days, well, maybe we need

to do the same when it comes to chartership and, and then women feel

like they can, they can keep going.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Well, maybe it could be part of those PIP days, isn't it?

Those keep in touch.

Keep in touch days that actually this is your time to sort of go

off and sort out your chartership.

I mean, that would be, that would be so much fun,

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: Absolutely.

Yeah.

To speak to other moms and, and other women

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Well, and you know, and that network as well, isn't it?

So one of the other things that we talked about in the little workshop

that we were doing the other day was actually about the importance

of, uh, creating those friendships.

So whether those are the friendships that you develop when you are at university

or in a workplace and how important they are as you move or as you, like, you

sort of say, as you navigate sort of your careers and move backwards and forwards.

Uh, again.

Reflecting on sort of the students I've taught, there is a number of them that

are that, that they have friendships now.

And the moment, you know, one has a child, there's a conversation, they, they meet up

and it means that there is always someone else there to talk about, you know?

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: It becomes more personal and I think

sometimes it's really difficult to get that balance within workplace.

So having opportunity to have another network, another community outside of

work, it becomes really important then.

Um, but I think that kind of brings me.

Brings me to the last point where I, I do feel that sometimes employers consider

these women networks as nice to, as a nice to have or optional and not at

the same importance level as a CPD, for example, which is obviously a requirement.

And we have again, talked about this, uh, you and I, about the mental health aspect

and workplace and how that is a thing now.

And you have mental health first aiders across so many practices, but.

Maybe supporting women shouldn't be treated much different because

we have identified it as an issue and a challenge, and now we need

to provide means to resolve it.

And paid subscription networks are not really an adequate

solution to to, to this task.

And women ATS will have different challenges than surveyors or architects.

Um, so again, it's having the opportunity to reflect, to share

experiences with other women who might have had similar, similar paths.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: There is also a growing issue about loneliness in the workplace.

Isn't there about that sort of, you, you might be sat next to

people all day long, but that you are the only person experiencing.

Um, those issues, whether that's about sort of childcare issues or, you

know, that whole navigating sort of parenthood, juggling all sorts of things.

Uh, and if you, if there is no one else there either in that space or

within your sort of community, for you to have those conversations with,

that leads to loneliness, which then has an impact on, on mental health.

So it, it's, it is so important.

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And I, and I think it's important to mention here as well, that there's more

and more research being done around working from home and how women often

navigate towards it as a, as a way of maintaining flexibility and, um.

Being able to stay in a workplace or in a professional, uh, capacity.

And that can also cause certain issues because it's not really by choice.

It's, um, there's no other option.

There is no other option.

And that can cause, um, severe loneliness.

Really.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Yes.

And, and then that sort of loss of identity or, or that constant feeling of

sort of, uh, who, which bit of you is, is being successful or which bit of you is

important at, at those sort of various, various times and things like that.

So these networks like, or sorry, communities, uh.

What other things or how else can they be helping address some of these barriers?

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: Uh, so I, I think just to summarize, you know, we,

we really, what we we're trying to do is to create a community that is inclusive,

that's supportive, that's free of charge.

Um.

You can be a member if you want to.

Accessible and respecting and celebrating our differences.

This is the opportunity for women to meet other women, to

strengthen their confidence.

If we can, you know, provide necessary training, we can talk

about it, what women feel is required and coaching opportunities.

Um, we've had some engaging talks and the feedback was amazing and it just,

just that in itself builds you up.

Um.

It's opportunity to meet other women, offer and receive advice.

we've kinda talked about it a little bit as well in the network that we

all kinda wish that, you know, it's the network is women celebrating other

women and each other's successes.

'cause at the moment it is sort of wedged between the

competitiveness of, of the sector.

And we just want a safe space where we can share and celebrate each other.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Fabulous.

And for younger women or early career professionals considering architectural

technology, what advice would you give them about building a meaningful

and impactful career in this field?

Oh, well,

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: They can make, yes, they can make

anything they want really, but

Ann Vanner FCIAT: absolutely end of.

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: end of, uh, and, and we can support them.

Um, but no, it is the first point is always follow your passion and.

The, the recent talk that we had with Nicole Nan of the Biophilic Design

Institute demonstrated it beautifully, I said, on several occasions at

can be anything you make it to be.

Um, if you know, if you're drawn towards the technical side, it can be

that, but it can be a starting point.

It doesn't have to be the final goal.

So the questions that we were asking ourselves in that session

was, what is your passion?

What are your strengths?

What are your values?

'cause that's important.

That is really important when you're trying to plan for, for

your career pathway and what work needs done doing in the world.

And this can be the start where these four spheres intersect.

Uh, that can be what leads you to developing professional

and personal fulfillment.

Number two, find your allies.

And again, this is, this is why this, this community exists in the first place.

Um.

That community can be your strength.

And this is again, something that we've discussed with RAI and Lindsay

Henderson, our facilitate facilitators.

Um, yeah, it's.

It sometimes feels very lonely being the only woman in the room, so having the

ability to go outside the room and and have a community that you can turn to,

it can be, it can be extremely important.

And last point, lived experience matters.

Work and life can rarely be separated.

So this again, is something that we sort of discussed with

the session with Abby Tru Big.

Uh, when we're we're talking about confidence and effective communication,

it was about being, being kind to ourselves and setting boundaries.

And it becomes really, really important because, well, we

all wanna do our job well.

Um, but.

We don't want to assume necessarily roles that are not meant for us, and

I'll elaborate on that in a minute.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Well, just before you elaborate, I think

that the, the bit you mentioned about values was really important.

And, um, the, the work that, uh, we sort of looked with Nicole about sort

of values really reminded me of that.

Values are really important and I don't think we spend enough time or

gives people enough time to sort of work out what their own values are and

their money, or I assume must see them.

Like little manifesto.

So I did a bit of work a few years ago on my values and there were

five of them, but actually also.

Revisiting those as, uh, life changes.

Uh, I'm at a very different position in life to where you are, to where sort of

my graduates were and things like that.

And while some of the values do change, some of them

actually sort of stay the same.

And, and it's really important to, to have that sort of almost subtle inner voice or

that little manifesto of yourself sort of going, I want to do this and therefore I

can do this because I'm backing them up.

Because I understand what's important to me at this point,

at this point in my life,

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: Absolutely.

And I think this comes down to confidence again, and having, uh, a community

where you can discuss that these values and lived experience is important.

It, it will strengthen that confidence.

Um, in terms of the different pathways, I think sometimes we are locked to

believe that this is, you know, we made our decision, this is our choice.

This is our only option.

But like you see, the moment we start looking at the values, um, it opens up.

The opportunities and what we wouldn't ne necessarily consider

as a, as a work for N at.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: and then that under really understanding sort of what it

means to be an architectural technologist and the opportunities that that.

Profession gives you, and I've always sort of said that, you know, the real

sweet spots are when you get sort of really good ats, but then they

bring something else to the table.

So whether that's their interest in equality or in technical things

or, and all of a sudden you start getting, developing those sort of

sweet spots where you are looking at.

Design process as an architectural technologist, but you're looking at

it from inequalities point of view.

Uh, so those things really focusing on what interests you and what drives your

sort of passions and things like that.

Slightly off

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: ab absolutely.

No, no, but your your own point.

'cause a design process is, is a collaboration.

Uh, we need to work as a team to, to design something beautiful.

It's not a a l lonely profession, is it?

So,

Ann Vanner FCIAT: we don't.

We're design in isolation, do we?

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: and the fact of us is rarely good.

So

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Yeah.

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: slightly off topic.

Know someone with a story to tell or a topic to

explore email atpodcast@ciat.global to nominate a guest or a topic.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Yeah.

So go on back onto topic then.

So if we're having this conversation again in 10 years time, uh, what

would success look like for women in architectural technology?

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: that it's such a big question.

Um.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: doing easy questions

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: No, we're not.

No.

In 10 years time.

Yeah.

Although I do want it to happen next year.

You know, I want it to, to, to, to be like this already.

Um, but I think it's about having a choice and the ability to honor

those values and aspirations.

This is the point that always brings me back to that community and, and supporting

other women to, to see that they have that option and a choice and they've got

someone who can either guide them through it or support them through it, or, or.

Just sense check what they're trying to do.

It has been demonstrated by research that women are more empathetic and care more.

but in the session that we had with Kirsty and um, and Lindsay, we chatted

that sometimes women will be expected to care more and an extension do

more assuming gender defined roles.

So I do hope that the industry.

Develops into, into one where everyone cares enough to see, well, we all matter.

We're all different.

And that's a cause for celebration.

'cause diverse and empowered teams can create wonderful things.

Like what we just said is from collaboration, that we, we

build these beautiful things.

Um, and then maybe by then the purpose of the community

will, will, will have changed.

It will be different.

It will be celebrating each other rather than navigating

each other through difficulties.

This is the starting point, and that's the challenge that we're facing at the moment.

you know, in the past couple of years, I've, I've been doing

quite a lot of research into what makes us happy and strong.

Reciprocal connections are the key to achieving this.

So I do hope success will be measured by happiness and fulfillment and being part

of a committed, supportive community, not, not only defined by the number

of women in senior management roles.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Fabulous.

You, you touched upon about that.

Um.

Conversation about sort of, uh, empathy and things like that.

And one of the things, so I was at International Women's Day at the

R-A-R-I-C-S, uh, on the eighth or last, not a couple of Fridays ago.

And we talked there about sort of the, um, emotional labor

that women are sort of expected.

To do as a result of that.

And I think there's, there's a conversation around that that's needed

that just because we can do those sort of things, we shouldn't be constantly given

those roles of the mentor or the coach or just that emotional labor of keeping a

team together or supporting, uh, a team.

So while we are talking about sort of women in architectural technology.

What is the role of the men in architectural technology

in this conversation?

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: I think they need to enable us.

This is, this is it.

They need to be a part of a conversation.

There's no good in us just talking to each other, women to other women.

Yeah.

There's a, there's a space for that support network that is for women

only when we can have a safe space to exchange stories and ideas.

Um, but there is a role for, for men to, to be part of a

conversation as well and to.

Here, what we're trying to say and what we're trying to describe in,

in terms of that lived experience of struggles that we've faced in industry.

Um, yeah.

I don't think I know a team that's women only.

So we all have to sit around the same table and just share our

experiences and see how we can, he can make the work workplace

better, more inclusive for everyone.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: But because that's it, isn't it?

The, the more inclusive spaces can be.

So whether we're talking about the urban landscape, how we design for homes, or how

we design for, uh, work, everyone actually benefits, uh, from uh, the things that.

We're talking about, isn't it?

Whether that's about sort of flexible working or whether that's

about how we design environments.

Everyone actually benefits if there are more voices, uh, and a greater diversity

of voices in those conversations.

So how do we get the men to be part of this conversation?

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: Well, maybe we have to invite

them into the next discussion.

How about that?

But I did mention that, you know, some of the events, so we've,

we've done, um, a couple of larger events in the past couple of years.

They were open to, to everyone, and we had quite a lot of men attending.

And feedback was great because we all discussed and engaged.

Um, we had few amazing speakers talking about these aspects that you've

just mentioned, you know, equity and how do we design to, to make these

designs inclusive for, for women?

Um.

That includes, you know, safety and, and sort of the emotional

labor aspect and, and caregiving.

Um, and then we discussed, and there was a lot of men who had great ideas

and they listed very attentively.

So I think we just need to make sure that we engage, um, and explain what it is

and make the the community more visible.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Yeah, I still, there is a lot of work though that, uh, is,

there's that, um, the privilege, isn't it, that, that, um, uh, men seem to sort of,

Have in terms of, their expectations and, and trying to get people to occasionally

think about doing things differently or simply understand, What is said and then

how that lands, uh, with the other person.

There's still so much that needs to be done.

I, I've been married for 20 years and, and we still have conversations around sort

of the division of labor in our household and how on one part, one person thinks

it's, it's fair and then other part I go, but it's, it, it's still not fair.

And uh, I'm probably.

Uh, well as, as my 17 year would, would've sort of gone about sort of

big raving feminist that even in sort of our household there, there, there,

there still is that sort of, uh, tension that to try and take that then into

sort of a workplace must be really, there's still so much work there that,

that's basically what I'm trying to sort of say to get, uh, the two different

parties to really, um, understand.

Each other because it's, it's, it's not just one way, is it?

It's the other way around as well.

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: Absolutely.

But you're, again, you're, you're very correct in saying that often

women face the same challenges within their personal life as within personal

life, and that can add to that load.

Uh, there's no way in separating the two.

And I think, you know, as a working mom as well, I know how many times I had

to just pick the kids up from school because they were ill or whatever,

and, and you just need to adjust and kinda deflect or be extremely flexible.

Um.

But it doesn't have to always land on women.

And I'm really hopeful that the is a document that will be produced

by Kirsty and Lindsay, um, from the facilitated sessions that we had can

be shared with the wider community, with men and women with CIT, um, to

explain why we met, why we thought it was important, and what what we said.

And I think they will listen.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: So we've also talked about sort of how, um, sort of some

of the more, I suppose, practical things, uh, that might need help,

how we might sort of deal with that.

So I have had, um, instance where I have, experienced something and then

thought, who on earth am I go speak to?

So, bear in mind that sort of a lot of architectural technologists

and practices are small.

With few people in there and often don't have a HR place.

What would you say to, uh, women in at who are dealing with sort of, uh, issues?

Where do they go?

And this ties into the conversation that we've had, isn't it about

maybe there does need to be a very practical space where women can

go to get legal advice or support.

You know, how to write an email to go.

Just not how to call things out or, and do that in a, in a

educational and I suppose support.

Yeah.

In an educational way.

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: And, and supportive as well.

Um, 'cause it can be extremely intimidating when you're facing something

like this and you need to challenge your, well, your superiors basically,

um, standing up for your values.

It's all very, very well said.

I, I have experienced that in the past as well.

And it's, it, it makes you extremely vulnerable.

So I think the first step is to have that.

Supportive community where you can go.

And it happened with our community as well, where women were just, um,

asking, what, what do you think?

What do you think about this?

Um, what do I say to that?

Have you been in a similar situation and other women had advised on

what they experiences have been and it has been really helpful,

but you're absolutely correct.

And we've talked about the need for something a little

bit more structured like.

Women hr, um, uh, where women can go for advice and, and receive

it and know that the other person will understand or listen.

To what, what these individual circumstances are at that point.

'cause it's never just about the work, it's about the

mental load of everything else.

It's about, you know, our vulnerabilities in everyday life.

It's about what happens within home environment at that moment

that can make us vulnerable.

Um, the decisions that we're having or having to make, um, maybe, you

know, illness and things like that.

So yeah, really we do, we do need to think about how that support can be.

More than just a a, an informal community.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: But there's, it almost feels like there needs to be,

uh, a series of steps isn't there?

Or, or a tier of something where there is this sort of very informal, I'm having.

Gonna have a chat with someone who's possibly not in my practice,

but is in another practice just to go, is this right, is this wrong?

Or have I just, you know, not understood sort of what's expected to that.

Then um, these are the kinds of emails that might need to be written

just to highlight, uh, that you've heard something or seen something.

'cause it's not always just, um.

You know, the people, sort of a above you, it's the people next to you as well,

you know, uh, the jokes that are being said, or the language that's being used.

Uh, so there's a, that educational bit.

And then what happens if you do need to escalate, uh, things

because it is becoming untenable.

You know, that you are, that the, you know, that you are.

Uh, joy of going to work is being diminished because of, uh, the behavior

or the culture that you are in and whether it is actually your place

to be the person that changes that.

Um.

are you the person that needs to educate everyone?

Or, you know, what happens if you actually do make then the

decision that you have to leave?

Um, what are the implications there and how is that also, uh, sort of dealt with?

Um, it, there's, there's a lot there.

So yeah, some sort of tier structure of, um, support that.

Um, and again, I, I've been looking at it from the point of view, could you

get companies who are looking, who have to report on their ESGs to use that as

a mechanism to ensure that that is done or that there is the space for that.

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: Absolutely.

And I think the ones who invest in their ethical policy as well,

they would be more willing to, um, discuss it with us, um, and.

You, you're absolutely right.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if there was someone, if there was someone else

who can come in and educate your work workplace so you don't have to do

it yourself while trying to figure out what's happening around you.

Um, so maybe that's something that we have to take forward and it

will become one of the points for, for our community to discuss and,

and see how we can make it happen.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Oh, yes.

Now there's an idea, isn't there?

Sort of, um, a whole, a whole, again, a, a, a range of sort of, you know, um.

I suppose almost stories you could use them as sort of as a, you know, a, a, a

story of explaining sort of what it is to feel like when you are in a place and

you think, actually I, you know, this.

Environment, to me, feels so toxic now.

But I can't leave because of where I am.

How do I sort of navigate my way through this?

Is it my place?

So a, a series of stories, a series of very practical, um, sort of

CPDs or, uh, things like that.

And then actually helping people write those, like sort of say those HR

policies about how you deal with, uh.

Complaints issues.

You know, it's a lot of h like we go back to sort of architectural

technologies, predominantly sort of small practices don't have

their own HR sort of, uh, space.

How do they deal with issues?

Uh, is that clear and is it transparent?

And is it there for everybody, uh, to use?

Uh,

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: Yeah, small and large.

Uh, I know stories from large, uh, practices as well and companies

where it's really difficult because there's so many steps up that ladder.

It's actually very, very difficult to get someone who can be your ally.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Yeah.

So going back to sort of, uh, women, uh, how do we, um, can we

start this journey sort of much earlier on in someone's journey?

Is there a, do we need something at university?

Do we need also then need to think about something that happens at schools as

well about making sure that, uh, we're not having these conversations in, if

I read another dissertation in 20 years time, I'll be very, I'll be very cross.

Also be worrying about my life choices that I'm still doing this

in 20 years time, but there you go.

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: Uh, no, I, I, I think this is it.

And, and this goes back to the point where I said about, uh, girls not necessarily

seeing at as in, as a, uh, career choice.

Um, yes we need to engage with, with younger generation.

Um, but there needs to be also support at university.

And we've kind of talked about it.

There's willingness.

Um, there's not that many women eighties study in architectural

technology and universities, so it would be relatively straightforward.

We just need to make it happen.

Um, make it into sort of a social friendly environment where we can all

get to know each other and then it becomes easier to speak to other people.

It's not just through email, it's not just, you know, structured, um, mentoring.

It is developing these friendships that you talked about as well.

Uh, that can last a lifetime.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Is there something to, I mean, looking

at sort of across the other, uh.

Built professional built environment, professional professions where, um, if

there's not a lot of eighties, maybe looking at sort of what is happening

in quantity surveying and, and in architecture and project management.

So, see, a, is there any learning and is there ability

to, uh, build momentum that way?

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: I, I think there is, and especially, uh, between

sort of survey and an architectural technology, sometimes, you know, the, the,

the pathways can cross over and then, uh, someone who studies, uh, architectural

technology might end up, um, being a, a, a. Burden, um, burden surveyor or,

or, um, a project manager even, or, um, work for burden standards division.

Um, so there is a little bit of a crossover and these stories can overlap.

Uh, quite a lot of women that I've met ended up in education as well.

So it is this shared learning.

But it's also recognizing that if you want to become a chartered

architectural technologist, there might be certain aspects that are

very specific to that profession.

So we need to have a space to discuss these as well, uh, and encourage

women to, to pursue chartership.

'cause it's, it is empowering in, in itself in a way.

Um, and it demonstrates that, well, yeah, we, we, we can do it.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: So from my experience, uh, having taught, I think every one of

the graduates that I taught graduated with a first, and I, I always sort of

said that when women get architectural technology, they really get it.

If you cut them in half, they, it would say architectural technology through them.

They'd like a stick of rock.

They really do.

Uh, get what it is, and are exceptionally good at it.

Um, I suppose there's a few things there is that a bit of research to understand

sort of why people aren't attracted to that side of it at sort of school age.

Then there's that sort of thing about sort of, uh, the chartership, but then

also keeping people, I I think there's a bit of education or, uh, research or

understanding of why, Women, um, tend to do a lot more sort of sidestepping

in their creators as opposed to that more traditional, uh, linear, route,

you know, they step into other, they step sidewards, I think, and then sort

of possibly come back into areas, uh, whereas I don't see the same, that

same sort of thing happening in men.

But I think that's just an observation, I suppose from my end of the world

looking back down, uh, at my career journey and, and the career journey

of my contemporaries, I suppose.

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: I, I couldn't agree more.

Um, but I think we have to see it as a, um, as something that

strengthens our position as women,

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Absolutely.

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: widens the horizons in.

I wouldn't have it any other way.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: No, no.

You know what, now we're, I suppose coming into the, the end of this

conversation, and I suppose as I sort of.

Start thinking about the sort of the, the latter part of my career.

I wouldn't have changed a thing about my career and my journey.

It's provided me an income.

It's allowed me to travel.

It allows me to stand on my own two feet to have a, a reputation, to

be part of a group that I am really proud of and enjoy being with.

Sort of saying, you know, to people, I'm an architectural technologist and, uh,

there's a sense of pride, uh, in that.

Um, so yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have done it any other way.

Um, it's, it served me extremely well.

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: Exactly, and maybe that's the story that we

need to be telling that it's okay not to know what's you know and

how gonna happen in 10 years time.

Um, but it's been open to these different opportunities and

this is becoming our strength.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Yes.

Yeah.

Right.

Do you have anything else?

Was, is there anything else that we've missed

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: No, I think this has been a, a very

enjoyable conversation and as always, and I hope, I hope everybody else

will enjoy listening to as much as we enjoyed talking to each other.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Exactly.

No, uh, we, we do like having a chat about this sort of, uh,

topic quite a bit, don't we?

It's important to remember that International Women's Day is

more than just a single day.

It's a movement for change that has continued every day since 1911.

Empowered by the collective efforts of individuals, networks, sorry,

communities, I think I prefer that word, like women in AT and other communities

working towards genders, equality.

A huge thank you to my friend Magdalena, for sharing how the

women in at network is building connection, confidence, and support

for women in architectural technology.

Do you have anything else to

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: No, thank you so much for having me, and I hope

many women will join the, the community.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Yes, absolutely.

It's, it's been, uh, I, I thoroughly enjoyed being, uh,

part of those conversations.

Uh, so yeah.

Wonderful.

Thank you very much, Magdalena.

Good to see you.

Magdalena Blazusiak MCIAT: Bye-bye

Ann Vanner FCIAT: Take care.

Bye.

You've been listening to where it's at.

A huge thanks to our guests and to you for listening.

Want to learn more about architectural technology, how to progress your

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