Speaker:
00:00:00
Francesca : I've probably
read an alien m-mail order
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Becky: what I was just about to say.
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Like, I feel my first human
mail-order bride book.
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I've read, and, like, what
does that say about me?
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:
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Of my first human on human
mail-order bride book where
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I'm like, "Ew, this is weird."
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Francesca : There's two of us.
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Francesca: Welcome to Reading Under
the covers of Romance novel podcast,
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where we chat fangirl and maybe
even swoon over our latest reads.
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I'm Francesca from Under the covers
book blog, and today we are doing
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our first discussion Episode of
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Tender is The Storm by Johanna Lindsey.
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This is the second book that
we have picked for our ripped
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and ravished book club.
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And it will be a two part discussion.
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Part one is this week and we are
covering chapters one through chapter 21.
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so it's about half of the book.
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I'm joined again by Becky
from the Too Stupid to Live
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podcast to discuss this book.
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As we are exploring the
bodice ripper romance era.
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So whether this is your first time reading
this book or you're rereading the book,
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hope that you follow along.
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as always, don't forget to subscribe
to the email newsletter for the book
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club I make sure to include comments
from you guys with every episode
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and every discussion that we do,
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but I also wanna encourage you to
visit the blog where I do have a
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dedicated post for this book and
you can leave your comments publicly
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there and actually interact with each
other in the comments there as well.
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I will leave that link in the show
notes, and I can't wait to see you there.
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But without any more delays.
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Let's jump into, tender is
the Storm by Johanna Lindsey.
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Oh my God, we are here ready to talk
about the second book in the book club.
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Becky: Yes.
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I have, I'm wearing my pearls,
my, for, for, um, clutching.
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I have my, my, my clutching
pearls for the viewers who, or
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the listeners who can't see.
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Francesca : I love that.
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I should have thought about that.
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Speaking of pearl clutching, the first
thing we need to talk about in pearl
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clutching is the cover of this bad boy.
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Becky: Y- yes.
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It's one of those things where, like,
when you've been in, the romance readers
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and just, like, the way my algorithm is.
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Like, I just feel like that's, like,
one of the-- You know how, like, memes
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come up every now and then of like, "Oh,
the kombucha girl," blah, blah, blah.
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That cover, reason, is alway- like,
always recurs in my algorithm.
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Like, like, there's a pattern there, and
so I'm glad that, like-- And I'm sure
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I'm not the only one, um, and I'm glad
we're finally getting around to discussing
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it, 'cause it's just like I never--
I, like, honestly, I don't know if I
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would've picked up this book otherwise.
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I'm just like, "Oh yeah, it's
that book, the weird cover one
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I unfortunately only got the cover.
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I have, like, the non, um...
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is what all I could find,
the non-cov- the non.
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It bummed me out.
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I was really bummed out.
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Like, I tried so hard to look for the
original and, like, it just, like, I was
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like, "Oh, I would have to wait forever."
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You know what I mean?
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And
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Francesca : yeah.
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yeah.
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They take a while sometimes
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Becky: i'm so, like, fascinated 'cause,
like, it's one of those things, again,
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these were just the history of the
publication of these books, how they were,
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you know, put in grocery stores, like, on
your checkout line on the way to checkout
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for groceries, and I'm just, like,
curious as to, like, what were people's
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reactions seeing this particular cover.
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Because, like, you know, again, it's,
like, the '80s, but, like, we don't
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even-- like, we, we and right now aren't
even seeing fully naked pe- not that
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we're seeing, like, genitalia or anything
like that, but just, like, you know,
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um, just something that is so-- that
is implying full nudity where n- and I,
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and I don't mean to, like, sound like a
pearl clutcher even though I'm wearing
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pearls and I'm clutching them right now.
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Um, but, like, you know, y-
kids go with their parents to
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the checkout line, you know?
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What the reaction was just seeing
this cover, if anyone even noticed.
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I don't know.
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'Cause at this point they were like,
"Oh, this is just, like, the part
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of the store where the books are."
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You know?
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So, yeah.
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Francesca : Yeah, I think it
would be really interesting
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to hear perspectives on that.
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Like the, uh, what was the
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shopping experience and
seeing stuff like that
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at the store?
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Because I know for myself, like you,
like you mentioned, I would still be
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shocked to see that on a store shelf.
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Even like at the regular bookstore.
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I can't imagine the grocery store.
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So, yeah.
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Becky: shocked.
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Like, what shocks me about it, 'cause
it's not even like-- It's the fact
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that they're in, like, a pu- like,
can, can you hold up the book again?
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'Cause they're in, like, a-- Yeah.
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Like, th- like, I, I just, like, want
to know the scenario of it, of like,
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he walked outside without pants.
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Where are his clothes?
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Are they in the bushes?
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Why is she still dressed?
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Is- she doesn't look comfortable at all.
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Um, and,
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Francesca : Well, they never do.
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Becky: like...
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And it's, like, there's, like, some
sort-- There's some types of, like, clinch
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covers where, like, I need to believe
the situation that they're in, you know?
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Like, okay, if they're on a boat,
it's in the middle of summer.
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A li- something's unbuttoned,
things are draping, whatever.
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But this, I'm like, how did you
get in this situation you're
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fully nude and she's not?
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Francesca : theory,
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Francesca.:
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my theory is
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that, and we will talk about the sex
scene that was in the first 21 chapters.
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This kind of seems to me
like it was that scene.
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' Cause they are...
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Becky.:
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Oh.
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Francesca : Like, this is the back.
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Becky: Yeah.
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Francesca : there's like the mountains.
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Y- yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So I'm thinking that this is when she
went to look for him, and that's, it's
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depicting probably their first sex scene.
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could be wrong, but...
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Becky: I was picturing it happening
in a cave, and I don't know why.
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Like, do you know what I mean?
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But I you're
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Francesca : Yeah, I mean, obviously
they're not doing the actual setting,
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but like this is kind of the moment
they were You know, he went up in the
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mountains, she went to look for him.
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So it kind of gives me that vibe.
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I could be
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Becky: But like, again, again, I don't--
Does he take his clothes off first?
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Francesca : I don't remember.
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And I imagine if she was naked first, I
imagine that this would have just been,
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like, the way it had to be for purposes
of, we gotta put a dress on her as opposed
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to, you know, the other way around.
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'Cause, like, how do you cover her?
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Becky: Yeah, 100%.
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Francesca : There was only one
blanket, and it probably wasn't
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even, like, a great blanket.
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So, like, if they wanted to recreate
it wouldn't have looked so good.
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Becky: No, it would've been terrible,
and like, it, it's just like, I, I, I
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just feel like for so, for a position
that's so iconic, like, I, you want a
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scene where it was like he was standing
naked on the cliff, she in her gold
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dress, and, and like her boobs were up
to his dick, and he was holding her.
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And like, sorry,
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I
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Francesca : Whenever somebody
talks about old romance covers,
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like this always pops up.
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Um, which is funny 'cause I feel like so
many people talk about Fabio, but then
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this I feel is almost more iconic as a
single cover than all of Fabio's career.
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Becky : Oh my God, And also, it's
also like a perspective issue.
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Like, he looks like a giant.
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Like...
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Francesca : Yes.
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And she was actually
tall, which would not be
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Becky: Oh, yeah.
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Exactly.
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She should be the one standing, and
he's groveling at her kn- you know?
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Like...
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Francesca : so we did the first 21
chapters, um, which I'm actually
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glad because I feel like there
wouldn't have been enough discussion
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had we stopped any sooner.
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I think that it was a good stopping
point to have something to talk about.
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So the first thing that I wanted
to ask you is writing style.
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I don't know if you've read
Johanna Lindsey before.
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This was my first time reading
Johanna Lindsey, and I did-- I found
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it also very different from Kathleen
Woodiwiss, which we read before.
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So that was...
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I feel like this is a little bit
more like what we're used to now.
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A little bit.
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But I also found it, to me, was a
little bit jarring, especially her
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transitions from one chapter to another.
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It was almost like, here's a complete
scene, and then we're just, like,
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starting something completely different.
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So every time we would start a chapter,
I got a little bit of whiplash, uh,
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and I don't know if that was just me.
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Becky: No, it wasn't, 'cause I think after
reading, um, I was about to say "Tender is
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the Storm," after we read "Flame and the
Flower," there were like a lot of like si-
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I, I feel like this was like in, in terms
of like, oh, time jumps are now a thing.
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Like, in terms of like, when was
this published compared to-- Let me
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Francesca : 1980, I think it was.
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Becky : was.
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it?
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No.
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Becky: the, in that kind of, um,
eight-year span, sorry, it's like that's
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how long it took me to do math, eight-year
span, um, I, I feel like I want- I'm
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curious if like maybe like n- fiction
writing and even ro- and specifically
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romance novel writing, like kind of
there, there was like maybe more of
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like a thought process in terms of like
editing of like, oh, what do we put in?
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What scenes do we need to take out
because readers are getting smarter?
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They, they know like, yeah, they know
she's gonna take a train, she's gonna
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be on the train from New York to like,
I don't know, Louisiana, um, before--
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or not to Louisiana, to Nebraska or
Minnesota, but we don't need to see the
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scene of her passing through M-Minnesota.
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Like, let's see the scene of her
when she finally arrives in Arizona.
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You, or how, I don't know the train tra-
I don't know the, you guys, I don't know
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the, um, the, uh, the 1880s train, trains
situation, what the tracks were like.
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Francesca : What were the
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Becky: but I, I'm like curious if that
was more of like a style thing and
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like a, common style thing versus,
oh, this is like the author like kind
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of having fun with like time jumps.
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You know what I
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Francesca : Yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I wonder, I mean, obviously
As we read more:
1980
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probably see some parallels.
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But yeah, comparing her...
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And it is published 1985, so it
would've been 13 years after Flower,"
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so it's quite, quite a bit of time.
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So, um, I don't know what was,
what was changing with the
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other authors in between that.
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But definitely it felt
like a marked difference.
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And once I was in the chapter, the
flow of the scenes and the writing
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style, and even a little bit the
point of view, did feel different
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than, you know, Kathleen Woodiwiss.
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Um, also, it was almost like for a modern
comparison, because of the different
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kind of point of views that she would
sneak in, like we got Willow's point of
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view and a couple other points of view.
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It almost reminded me with how, an
author like JR Ward would write, where
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we're getting a really good perspective
of all the different characters,
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which I actually really appreciate.
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I enjoy that even when
I am reading a romance.
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Obviously, you don't want that with
every single-- at every single moment,
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but it does give a nice perspective
'cause you, you're getting someone
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else's point of view about what is
going on or about the character.
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So I did enjoy that,
aspect of the writing.
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Becky: Mm-hmm.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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It kind of like, , it made me curious
'cause we have that sort of, kind of
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in Flame and Flower, with the side
characters, and now I'm like, oh, I wonder
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if that's like, uh, i-if, if that's still,
like, it was at this point in, in terms
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of like the evolution of the romance,
modern romance novel, like, is that still
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a com- was it still common at the time?
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I mean, I, I know that my answer would
be, is to read more books from this
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time, and I'm not, so I'm just gonna
questions and never find the answer.
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Francesca : Yeah.
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And actually, I-- personally, I
feel like we've done away with
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that, like the different, you know,
getting the little bit of point of
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views of other characters, and I...
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:
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Personally, I would like to see that
back because it gives a nice You know,
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00:11:24
you're, you're seeing the character not
just from whether it's a first person
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or, you know, you're also getting, for
example, the hero's, uh, point of view.
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But you're getting to see what
they think of other people.
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And in this one, for example, we
actually started off with the brother,
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which I found very interesting.
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00:11:42
Becky: yeah, a-and was
gonna be the romantic lead.
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Um, and, and I was like kinda confused
for a second 'cause, like, reading
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00:11:49
it, and I'm like, "But that's not
the name on the back of the cover."
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00:11:51
Do you know what I mean?
255
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00:11:52
so I'm like, "This is confusing."
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00:11:55
Um, why-- it's so fascinating 'cause
like, I don't know if it's like what,
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:
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how, again, how readers have evolved,
but we are just like so, especially with
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00:12:02
romance and like the romance plot line,
and not even just in books, like even on
259
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00:12:07
TV shows and other online publications
and stuff, we are just like so focused
260
:
00:12:13
on the two protagonists, and it's to
the s- to the extent of if you even see
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:
00:12:18
a scene with a side character, you have
to have like a really good reason why.
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:
00:12:22
Francesca : yes.
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00:12:24
start questioning,
okay, what's the motive?
264
:
00:12:26
Why is this person here?
265
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00:12:28
Why are we even paying attention to that?
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:
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There's gotta be a reason.
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00:12:32
Becky: Yeah.
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:
00:12:32
Like, and I think that, like, w-with this
day and age you need to keep the reader's
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focus, w-we are no longer guilting
ourselves for no longer finishing a book.
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You have to keep the attention, and like,
I feel like with this, it's like, oh,
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there's some reader-- like, you have to
have a little patience because author is,
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like, painting the world, and in m- and
I think in terms of, like, the books that
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were published more recently where it is,
like, very, like, okay, you got-- it like,
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00:13:02
we, we are just, like, so distracted with
so many different things, like, where
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it's like, okay, let's get to the sex,
let's get to the thing, da-da-da-da-da.
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00:13:08
You know?
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Um, it's, it's almost like
we're meditating read-
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:
00:13:12
this is meditative reading.
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00:13:13
Francesca : Yeah, it is.
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But also, so the, the beginning part,
which was kind of like it threw me off
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because the name didn't match, but at
the same time, like, I enjoyed seeing
282
:
00:13:24
that part because it was almost like,
you know, like the Old West movies.
283
:
00:13:28
Like, it felt like were reading that,
and I'm like, " Okay, I like that."
284
:
00:13:31
Like, it was to, to be in that.
285
:
00:13:35
Becky: It did make me think a lot of,
like, the, is it Sergio Leone movies or,
286
:
00:13:38
like, Once Upon a Time in the West, where
it was, like, kind of these, like, really
287
:
00:13:42
slow kind of starts where you're just
kinda only hearing the sound of bugs.
288
:
00:13:46
And we were just talking about bugs.
289
:
00:13:48
You what mean?
290
:
00:13:48
This, like, weird tension of, like,
it's really, really calm, but then,
291
:
00:13:53
like, a huge thing is gonna happen.
292
:
00:13:56
It's like a Texas shootout, and, and
that's essentially more or less what is
293
:
00:14:00
the opening of this book, is the opening
like, uh, any sort of, like,:
1970
294
:
00:14:04
like, spaghetti western or something.
295
:
00:14:06
Francesca : Yeah.
296
:
00:14:06
Yeah, which I, I found very
interesting, and then even finding
297
:
00:14:10
out that that was not the hero.
298
:
00:14:11
But it is providing backstory
for the revenge plot line, which
299
:
00:14:16
drives, um, the core of this story.
300
:
00:14:19
But, um, yeah, so I found
the opening was interesting.
301
:
00:14:21
Then going to the revenge plot, I- I'm a
little disappointed there because we are
302
:
00:14:28
halfway in this story, and I feel like it
is just like some story that we're hearing
303
:
00:14:34
about besides that opening, you know, and
getting that one part of their revenge.
304
:
00:14:39
But like they're-- what they're
planning now, it feels very
305
:
00:14:42
cartoonish in the background, like
there's nothing going on with it.
306
:
00:14:47
And I feel like for half of
the book, that should have been
307
:
00:14:50
a bigger plot point by now.
308
:
00:14:53
Becky: Totally, 'cause, like, we
kind of wanna know, like, how is
309
:
00:14:56
it affecting our main characters?
310
:
00:14:58
'Cause again, we're reading this from our
current reality where, like- W- and also
311
:
00:15:06
with the transparency of what we know of
like what like writers are doing and what
312
:
00:15:10
publications are doing in order to accept
new books, um, just how like it, it--
313
:
00:15:16
just from my, again, I've never written a
romance novel, but from my understanding
314
:
00:15:20
of what it's like to publish a romance
novel these days, it's so fascinating
315
:
00:15:23
to read this because it's like, I don't
think this would've gotten someone a-
316
:
00:15:28
an agent, or I don't think this been--
like I would've, they would've just
317
:
00:15:32
kind of ripped it apart a little bit.
318
:
00:15:34
Um, especially with like,
they're like, "No subplot."
319
:
00:15:37
N-not that, and this isn't ag-against
any sort of, um, I'm thinking publ-
320
:
00:15:42
I'm thinking publishers and I'm,
and I'm thinking like, especially
321
:
00:15:45
like online publishers, you know?
322
:
00:15:47
Um, not necessarily like what, that
the books have diminished or anything,
323
:
00:15:52
but I'm just thinking of like the
way the stories are being told.
324
:
00:15:56
I'm like, is this, would
this get published today?
325
:
00:15:58
I
326
:
00:15:59
Francesca : Yeah.
327
:
00:16:00
I feel like it's more...
328
:
00:16:01
This one in particular, if it's feeling
so far very like a quiet kind of
329
:
00:16:06
story where, you know, there, there
was more tension and excitement with
330
:
00:16:12
"The Flame and the Flower," you know.
331
:
00:16:13
There-- It, it gets really exciting
towards the end, but even throughout,
332
:
00:16:18
there's the sea voyage, and there's stuff
happening, and there's, you know, we have
333
:
00:16:22
the tension of how we open the story.
334
:
00:16:25
And here, I feel like we've been
very surface level, if you will,
335
:
00:16:30
and mundane kind of storyline.
336
:
00:16:33
Not to say that it's not good.
337
:
00:16:36
It's just very different
from what I was expecting.
338
:
00:16:39
And in a way, it's very easy to
read 'cause it doesn't take any time
339
:
00:16:45
to breeze through these chapters.
340
:
00:16:48
Becky: Yeah, it does go down really easy.
341
:
00:16:50
And also I'll say like it's also a
premise thing too, like 'cause like
342
:
00:16:54
the premise of the love story, I mean,
it's a really heightened high concept.
343
:
00:16:58
It's a story that's used in
rom-coms and romances today.
344
:
00:17:02
It's a mistaken identity, romance.
345
:
00:17:05
Basically you have a sister is going
to be a mail order bride, but she's
346
:
00:17:09
in love with our protagonist's fiancé,
that our protagonist finds out about
347
:
00:17:13
it, and she takes her sister's place,
which is such a high concept thing.
348
:
00:17:17
It reminded me a little bit of
like "The unhoneymooners" in a way.
349
:
00:17:20
And so my brain is going to
like, "Oh, I get, is this a cute
350
:
00:17:23
book like 'The Unhoneymooners?'"
351
:
00:17:25
But it's not.
352
:
00:17:26
It's a 1985 romance novel that
takes place in the West, you know?
353
:
00:17:31
It was kind of hard for me to kind
of figure out what the tone was,
354
:
00:17:35
you as a, as a reader in 2026.
355
:
00:17:38
Francesca : Yeah, I think there was a bit
of mixed signals when it comes to the tone
356
:
00:17:42
of the story, especially with the opening.
357
:
00:17:44
The opening, like you said, it opens like
those big, you know, the West movies, and
358
:
00:17:50
then it just kinda slows down from there.
359
:
00:17:53
Then we get the, the whole mail order
bride and the sister sacrificing
360
:
00:17:59
herself for some time so that her
sister can get her happy ever after,
361
:
00:18:04
which I thought that was great setup.
362
:
00:18:06
Uh, then after that, it's very
mundane, everyday, you know, life.
363
:
00:18:12
I almost feel like that could've
been squeezed a little bit so
364
:
00:18:17
that we didn't, like, stay in...
365
:
00:18:19
Remember last time you
were like, "That is Ohio"?
366
:
00:18:21
I feel like a lot of these chapters
were the Ohio part, where we
367
:
00:18:24
were in the mundane every day.
368
:
00:18:27
I just wish that we could've just gone
past those faster so that we have the
369
:
00:18:31
excitement, the setup of the mistaken
identity, a little bit of the everyday,
370
:
00:18:35
and then we can go to, I don't know,
some of the revenge or s-something.
371
:
00:18:39
Becky: Totally.
372
:
00:18:40
'Cause like, I think like what, again,
going into com- in my comedy brain,
373
:
00:18:44
like a lot of what this is is like y-
she- it's a fish out of water story.
374
:
00:18:48
Like, she's from New York.
375
:
00:18:49
She's had servants her whole life.
376
:
00:18:51
Um, she's had a...
377
:
00:18:52
And, and she's also lying about, you
know, her past and things like that.
378
:
00:18:56
Francesca : Her
379
:
00:18:56
Becky: but when we-- and her age.
380
:
00:18:58
Um, but when we get to her finally
arriving in, it's Arizona, right?
381
:
00:19:04
Or Colorado.
382
:
00:19:04
I'm so sorry to Arizonians and Coloradans.
383
:
00:19:07
I confuse those two states.
384
:
00:19:09
I will always do that.
385
:
00:19:10
Um, anyway, um, apologies.
386
:
00:19:12
Um, but when, when she gets to Arizona,
it kind of, it becomes like a fish out of
387
:
00:19:16
water comedy where she's forced to kind
of live be- live bene-beneath her means.
388
:
00:19:22
Is that phrase?
389
:
00:19:23
Like, she doesn't know how to
cook, and she doesn't know how
390
:
00:19:25
to make coffee, and like she
doesn't have nice clothes anymore.
391
:
00:19:29
And I, I feel like when you see those
things, like you want each moment to s-
392
:
00:19:35
like, when she like figures out how to
make coffee or figures out how to cook,
393
:
00:19:39
like to have that kind of se- to see her
character evolve with each lesson that
394
:
00:19:44
she's learning in this world of becoming
this wife, and we're not like seeing that.
395
:
00:19:48
You I, I don't see how like...
396
:
00:19:51
It, it's hard right now to see
her grow as a character other
397
:
00:19:54
than like, I'd be freaking out.
398
:
00:19:56
Like, she didn't feel like she
was written to the top of her
399
:
00:19:58
emotional intelligence maybe.
400
:
00:20:00
And I felt that way in Flame and the
Flower as well of just like kind of
401
:
00:20:03
understanding the stakes of this, of
just like, "Oh, fuck, what did I do?"
402
:
00:20:07
You know, like that kind of thing.
403
:
00:20:09
Sorry to
404
:
00:20:09
Yeah.
405
:
00:20:10
and also what
406
:
00:20:10
Francesca : Also, I feel like one thing
that is, th-that struck me interesting
407
:
00:20:15
is we are in, we're really deep in
all the mundane and everyday, but at
408
:
00:20:19
the same time, the moments where she's
like learning something, for example,
409
:
00:20:24
she has to learn how to make the
coffee or she has to make a recipe.
410
:
00:20:27
The only time we saw one of her fail
attempts is the fact that there's
411
:
00:20:32
a passing mention that she had a
cookbook, which we didn't even see
412
:
00:20:36
the part where the cookbook came.
413
:
00:20:38
So she made this meal, and there's
just this reference that she missed
414
:
00:20:42
a couple of the ingredients 'cause
she didn't know what those were,
415
:
00:20:45
and of course the meal is horrible.
416
:
00:20:48
But we don't really get to see her
417
:
00:20:52
Becky: By the way, that's me today.
418
:
00:20:54
I was gonna text my friend, 'cause I have
definitely done that and, um, I've made
419
:
00:20:58
terrible things, and still do, still do.
420
:
00:21:02
Francesca : Google is free.
421
:
00:21:02
Google is free.
422
:
00:21:03
Becky: Mm-hmm.
423
:
00:21:04
Oh, yeah.
424
:
00:21:05
Francesca : But I feel like we were
not there for those moments, you know?
425
:
00:21:09
Like everything was, we were
told, you know the whole
426
:
00:21:12
thing about show, don't tell.
427
:
00:21:14
I feel like we got a lot of tell with
some of these things, and I would have
428
:
00:21:19
loved to see at least a couple of scenes.
429
:
00:21:20
Since we're in the mundane, uh, let me be
with her freaking out while something is
430
:
00:21:27
coming out bad from, from the stove or...
431
:
00:21:31
Did they have an oven?
432
:
00:21:32
I don't know.
433
:
00:21:33
Uh, so yeah,
434
:
00:21:34
Becky: I-- probably.
435
:
00:21:35
We
436
:
00:21:36
Francesca : I...
437
:
00:21:36
I imagine, I have no idea.
438
:
00:21:37
Becky: from the Old West
write in and tell-- no,
439
:
00:21:40
Francesca : yeah, 'cause this
is, this is actually set in:
1882
440
:
00:21:44
so I, I, I'm there was no ovens.
441
:
00:21:47
I have no idea.
442
:
00:21:48
Uh, but yeah, I think that that would
have probably made it a little bit
443
:
00:21:52
stronger e-even in that lull of time.
444
:
00:21:56
Becky: 100%.
445
:
00:21:57
And you had also mentioned the, used
the term cartoonish, which I will agree.
446
:
00:22:03
Like, I will say the portrayals, the
portrayals of these characters and
447
:
00:22:08
seeing their character development,
because we're not kind of getting into
448
:
00:22:11
the depth of this kind of emotional
experience that they're going through,
449
:
00:22:16
they do come across as cartoonish.
450
:
00:22:18
And I think that's like maybe adding
to the Ohi- the Ohio-y feeling.
451
:
00:22:24
Um, because one, I, I-- we're not seeing,
like, we're not see- what's the male?
452
:
00:22:31
Lu-Luke's, Luca
453
:
00:22:32
Francesca : Look.
454
:
00:22:32
Yeah, look.
455
:
00:22:33
Mm-hmm.
456
:
00:22:34
Becky: Luke, um, he is, um, like- I
think what's bothering me is that all
457
:
00:22:40
of his dialogue sound, he-- like, it's
hard for me not to like picture like
458
:
00:22:43
Yosemite Sam so I am not, as a romance
reader who loves this stuff, I am not
459
:
00:22:49
finding myself attracted to him as much
as I am entertained by him, like I was
460
:
00:22:54
when I was a kid watching Yosemite Sam.
461
:
00:22:58
And her, it, it, it kind of feels like,
oh, I'm watching a character from like
462
:
00:23:03
a Marx Brothers movie who's like the
fancy lady with like the, who carries
463
:
00:23:08
a m- wears a dress with like a muff and
fur and being like, "Whoa, what's this?"
464
:
00:23:12
What's interesting is that like in
the, in the books that we read today,
465
:
00:23:16
just how fleshed out our characters
are and the emotional intelligence
466
:
00:23:21
that, that they're given versus this,
where it is very like we're just
467
:
00:23:25
painting a picture of, of romance.
468
:
00:23:28
Francesca : Yeah, and I feel like even
with "The Flame and The Flower," there
469
:
00:23:32
was more depth and character development
at the beginning of that book than
470
:
00:23:37
I think we're getting in this book.
471
:
00:23:39
So in terms of depth, I think that
we were going deeper in that one.
472
:
00:23:44
But that...
473
:
00:23:45
I don't know, that could just be me.
474
:
00:23:47
Becky: Yeah, absolutely.
475
:
00:23:48
Yeah.
476
:
00:23:48
Um, I like would be remiss if we didn't
talk about the way the Indigenous
477
:
00:23:53
people are portrayed in this book.
478
:
00:23:54
Like I think it's
something to acknowledge.
479
:
00:23:57
I mean, I'm a white person, and so
like obviously there's so much I
480
:
00:24:01
can like bring to this conversation.
481
:
00:24:03
But it did, um, it is interesting going
back reading these books and just seeing
482
:
00:24:09
how, even though this book takes place
in the:
1880
483
:
00:24:15
were portrayed in the 1980s and how like
little in that span of like 100 years
484
:
00:24:24
Francesca : Very little changed.
485
:
00:24:26
Becky: very little changed and w-
and it's like we're still, you know,
486
:
00:24:29
stuck in like hurtful stereotypes.
487
:
00:24:31
And, um, I don't know, like I, I
think like that it troubled me a bit,
488
:
00:24:35
you know, as a reader of like, oh,
or like we're using kind of hurtful
489
:
00:24:40
language and, um, stereotypes.
490
:
00:24:43
And, and even they made the twin
brother seem like kind of a little
491
:
00:24:48
white, or actually they made Luke
seem, too, a little white savior-y.
492
:
00:24:52
know?
493
:
00:24:52
Like I think at the time it was like, "Oh,
how do we show like a great character?
494
:
00:24:58
Like let's see them accept, you know, kind
of Indigenous people into their life," as
495
:
00:25:02
if like they're beneath them, you know?
496
:
00:25:04
And so it's this, or as if
they're helping them, you know?
497
:
00:25:07
And, and like it is a little
like, for me, like cringey.
498
:
00:25:13
Francesca : Yeah, and
we get to see that also.
499
:
00:25:15
I think especially that comes across
with the male characters, and I it
500
:
00:25:19
was a little bit better done once
we get to the female with Willow and
501
:
00:25:24
the heroine and how they interact,
because you can see her prejudice
502
:
00:25:28
immediately, but she quickly changes,
and then there's the birth and all that.
503
:
00:25:34
So, I do think that it was reflected
way more in the male characters than
504
:
00:25:39
females, I find really interesting too.
505
:
00:25:41
Becky: 100%.
506
:
00:25:42
And like thinking about like, um, again,
comparing this to like a spaghetti
507
:
00:25:46
Western or something, seeing like how
like there is a lot of that story of
508
:
00:25:51
like a woman like comes out to the,
to, you know, the old We- to the West.
509
:
00:25:56
Um, she's managing a
ranch for the first time.
510
:
00:25:59
She's one of the very few women there, so
she has to get used to being slapped on
511
:
00:26:04
the butt and like atta- you know, being
assaulted and, you know, all this stuff.
512
:
00:26:08
And like, this is just like kind of like
the trajectory of like what it's like
513
:
00:26:12
to kind of move out to the Old West.
514
:
00:26:15
And then it, it-- you, you do
have that scene where when they
515
:
00:26:18
finally meet another woman.
516
:
00:26:21
Francesca : thank you.
517
:
00:26:24
They
518
:
00:26:24
Becky: It's "Oh, thank God."
519
:
00:26:26
And it's, like, it's almost like, oh,
okay, they have to put aside their walls
520
:
00:26:29
and their prejudices 'cause they have to.
521
:
00:26:31
They need each other, you know?
522
:
00:26:33
And, um, it, it's more...
523
:
00:26:35
Who knows?
524
:
00:26:36
I mean, it's more out of desperation
like wanting to grow as a person.
525
:
00:26:40
Francesca : It was real,
real necessity at that point.
526
:
00:26:43
Becky: Mm-hmm.
527
:
00:26:44
Francesca : Going back to the, the
fish out of water and the woman
528
:
00:26:47
from the city, we don't really...
529
:
00:26:51
I don't know.
530
:
00:26:51
I feel like maybe it's because we're very
isolated at the ranch for a lot of it.
531
:
00:26:56
We don't really get to see much of
that, 'cause, like, she hasn't really
532
:
00:27:00
interacted with hardly anybody.
533
:
00:27:03
There was one party that was, you know,
in her honor, technically, but even
534
:
00:27:09
that was such a small part of the story.
535
:
00:27:13
Like, I don't know.
536
:
00:27:14
Why, why hasn't she gone to town?
537
:
00:27:16
Like, something.
538
:
00:27:17
I feel like there's been so little
interaction with the outside world.
539
:
00:27:21
We're cooped up in this one house.
540
:
00:27:23
Um, so I don't know.
541
:
00:27:24
I'm getting a little stir crazy.
542
:
00:27:25
That was probably just
me getting stir crazy.
543
:
00:27:28
Becky: I- but I you're, you're,
you're right though, and I
544
:
00:27:31
think like it is like that.
545
:
00:27:33
And, and I'm like curious, like, again,
I'm watching, I'm watching "The Gilded
546
:
00:27:37
Age" right now, and it does take place in
New York during the:
1880
547
:
00:27:42
like one part of where there's like one
scene when they're out West or something.
548
:
00:27:46
And just like thinking about
the time, like people were
549
:
00:27:50
going out there to find fortune.
550
:
00:27:53
This is, like it was almost like- You
know how like when like someone like
551
:
00:27:57
works on a boat and it's like they
live on the boat and they, they--
552
:
00:28:01
so they, they live where they work?
553
:
00:28:03
I wonder if that's like what the West was
like back then of like, "Oh, we're not
554
:
00:28:08
just like moving out to have more space.
555
:
00:28:10
Like we're, we are here to make a fortune,
but we are, we are where we work."
556
:
00:28:15
And so when he was requesting a mail
order bride, the other brides that he's
557
:
00:28:20
seen in his life, which I'm sure is very
few, they are all living where they work.
558
:
00:28:26
So he thought, like it felt like he was
so, like again, I mean, they say this
559
:
00:28:29
more overtly in the book, he expects
wife, a wife to be a ranch hand in
560
:
00:28:34
a way, to be, to, work, and she is
coming in and expecting to just, you
561
:
00:28:38
know, be a rich wife or, you know,
th- i-in a cooler place or something.
562
:
00:28:44
And so there was like...
563
:
00:28:44
I don't know.
564
:
00:28:44
It is like very interesting I feel
like maybe in the Old West it was
565
:
00:28:49
very like kind of work-focused and
fortune-focused, and like no one
566
:
00:28:53
had time to like go to the museums
or go to parties or like socialize.
567
:
00:28:57
Like, I mean, I know that there was
like the unwinding in the saloon
568
:
00:29:00
or you know, whatever, but I feel
like it was just, again, so like
569
:
00:29:03
everyone just s- felt so driven to
just make as much money as possible
570
:
00:29:07
w- even through killing other people.
571
:
00:29:09
Francesca : Yeah.
572
:
00:29:09
That's interesting because I feel like
it-- in a way, it kinda doesn't make
573
:
00:29:14
sense with the character because he...
574
:
00:29:17
Yes, he's working because he's
doing his thing with the horses,
575
:
00:29:22
but at the same time, that's not
what's driving him because the whole
576
:
00:29:26
fortune thing is the reason why his,
he's, he no longer has his father.
577
:
00:29:31
So, I know.
578
:
00:29:32
It feels like a disconnect in that sense.
579
:
00:29:35
But at the same time, he also
didn't want the bride, and he didn't
580
:
00:29:40
really want to be in a situation
where he's gonna end up married.
581
:
00:29:43
He's actually thinking he's going to annoy
her enough so that he can send her away
582
:
00:29:48
to prove her, to prove to her that...
583
:
00:29:50
And that might have even been why he chose
a woman from New York, knowing what their
584
:
00:29:57
expectations are, what their lifestyle is.
585
:
00:29:59
So if he knew that he needed somebody
just for a certain period of time to show,
586
:
00:30:05
then it is somebody that I will be able
to run off, run out of town very quickly.
587
:
00:30:11
Becky: Totally, yeah, 'cause like he,
this is all part of his like ruse.
588
:
00:30:15
Like again, like he's trying to sh-
like I think he's putting on this
589
:
00:30:18
like air or like putting on a facade
to the rest of the town that I need
590
:
00:30:21
a wife, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
591
:
00:30:23
But he, again, like he is just after this
money, you know, and, um, but who isn't?
592
:
00:30:28
You know, this is, it's what he deserves.
593
:
00:30:29
Francesca : Yeah, and I feel like
that's the whole part that I was
594
:
00:30:31
saying that I wanted more of, the ruse.
595
:
00:30:34
I feel like there's so much to
work with there, and it seems
596
:
00:30:38
like a missed opportunity.
597
:
00:30:40
But hopefully after chapter
twenty-one, which is where we stop,
598
:
00:30:43
hopefully we get, we get into that.
599
:
00:30:45
'Cause I think that that
would be interesting.
600
:
00:30:47
I want him to parade her around
town and, you know, start to make
601
:
00:30:53
some moves towards where, you know,
the downfall of enemies, if you
602
:
00:31:00
Becky: Totally.
603
:
00:31:02
Yeah, absolutely.
604
:
00:31:03
'Cause it is like, I mean, the p- it's,
pacing-wise, it's slow and, and granted,
605
:
00:31:08
he is giving her time, I you know, and
just, like, letting her warm up, which
606
:
00:31:13
is not at all, and all that is terrible.
607
:
00:31:16
Um, but yeah, I, I'm, like, so
curious because, like, remember in
608
:
00:31:20
Flame and the Flower where, like,
the final- everything happened in
609
:
00:31:23
the final chapter, so I guess in my
brain, I'm like, "Oh, this is probably
610
:
00:31:27
gonna happen in the final chapter."
611
:
00:31:28
I'm, coming in a lot of
assumptions, and that's bad.
612
:
00:31:31
That's
613
:
00:31:32
Francesca : like this is going to be
the, this is going to be the formula.
614
:
00:31:36
So one thing before we
change the subject on this.
615
:
00:31:39
I need to mention that baths were again
A part of our read, and I actually
616
:
00:31:46
marked the first time that we, uh,
mentioned a bath, and it, it was
617
:
00:31:50
completely necessary 'cause our heroine
had just been on a really long train
618
:
00:31:54
ride fully s- I mean, she was a mess.
619
:
00:31:57
Uh, but it was by page thirty-eight
we started to talk about baths.
620
:
00:32:01
And baths were also a point
of discussion quite often in
621
:
00:32:06
Becky: They love their baths.
622
:
00:32:09
Francesca : As we are I think
it was chapter twenty-one, where
623
:
00:32:12
she's getting ready to, like, um...
624
:
00:32:14
They're going out to dinner finally
to the town, and he's saying something
625
:
00:32:19
like, "If you want to take a bath in the
kitchen 'cause it's easier," whatever.
626
:
00:32:22
I'm like, "Here we go again."
627
:
00:32:23
I'm
628
:
00:32:24
Becky: Yeah.
629
:
00:32:24
Francesca : like, we have to
talk about it because it seems
630
:
00:32:27
to be a recurring pattern.
631
:
00:32:28
I am excited to see that
everybody's very clean.
632
:
00:32:32
Becky: Yes.
633
:
00:32:33
Yeah.
634
:
00:32:35
But it's, like, so interesting because,
like, it-- just seeing how much of a to-do
635
:
00:32:39
it was to get clean, you know what I mean?
636
:
00:32:41
And, like, it's such a thing.
637
:
00:32:44
It's such a thing 'cause it is-- I guess
it's like, I don't know, then it was
638
:
00:32:48
like the equivalent of, like, getting
your car serviced sometimes, you know?
639
:
00:32:52
Of just like, "Oh, I'm gonna have to
ma- like, ma- revolve my day around it."
640
:
00:32:57
You know what I mean?
641
:
00:32:58
Francesca : Basically, basically.
642
:
00:33:00
And then, of course, you have the, the
hero that the first time he's being
643
:
00:33:04
half nice to her and, like, doing it
for her, and then the next time, he's
644
:
00:33:07
like, "You gotta do, do that yourself."
645
:
00:33:10
And I was like, "Oh, he's, he's really
gonna be rough about this and make her
646
:
00:33:15
Becky: He wants her gone.
647
:
00:33:16
Francesca : right.
648
:
00:33:17
Um, yeah.
649
:
00:33:18
So also, I feel like we're not
really getting a lot of the backstory
650
:
00:33:25
from the heroine 'cause I...
651
:
00:33:27
By the time we hear about Antoine
and what he did to her, I feel
652
:
00:33:32
like that came out of nowhere.
653
:
00:33:34
You know, like, really didn't know.
654
:
00:33:36
We knew she had a fiancé, and she...
655
:
00:33:39
At the beginning, I had this impression
that she was very, not spoiled princess,
656
:
00:33:45
but in a way a little bit like that.
657
:
00:33:46
She didn't really care whether
she married for love or not.
658
:
00:33:50
She was just gonna do what her
father said because her role
659
:
00:33:53
in society was to do X, Y, Z.
660
:
00:33:56
And never did we get the impression
that there was more to her character
661
:
00:34:03
or any backstory or anything like that.
662
:
00:34:05
And I think-- I was trying to think
about that, and I feel like that's
663
:
00:34:08
because we got a lot of the sister
at the beginning, which also is the
664
:
00:34:13
same of our hero and his brother.
665
:
00:34:16
So we get a lot of the siblings at
the beginning, and I feel like it
666
:
00:34:19
took away from us really exploring
the main characters in a way.
667
:
00:34:26
Becky: 100%.
668
:
00:34:27
Like, I, I feel like-- 'cause, like,
basically we-- she's in the situation
669
:
00:34:31
she's in, our main character, because
she's been, quote-unquote, "ruined."
670
:
00:34:35
You know, like, there's, that she has
to, like, marry whoever was, , whoever,
671
:
00:34:40
like, would give her a chance because
of a moment that I-- when I read it,
672
:
00:34:45
I was like, "Oh, this is interesting."
673
:
00:34:47
It seemed as if she was in love with
someone, and she had love affair,
674
:
00:34:50
and m-maybe, like, was having sex
and, like, exploring pleasure.
675
:
00:34:55
And, and, like, I kind of like was
like, "Oh, cool," like this is not
676
:
00:34:59
a, I don't wanna say mature person,
but not-- I was excited to, like,
677
:
00:35:03
not read about a virgin, I guess.
678
:
00:35:04
You know what I mean?
679
:
00:35:05
And I know that's, um, it, it, that's just
my preference as, as a romance reader.
680
:
00:35:10
I am not the-- N-losing virginity
stories are not my favorite.
681
:
00:35:15
But then they, they kind of flash back
to when she actually was ruined, and
682
:
00:35:20
it was like sh- oh, she was just this,
like, kind of assaulted by th-this weird
683
:
00:35:24
couple who has some weird cuckolding
fetish, and I'm like, "That's weird."
684
:
00:35:28
Francesca : That was so
685
:
00:35:29
Becky: wasn't even… It was so and it
was, like, such, such a quick moment,
686
:
00:35:32
and it wasn't even, like, not that
it, it ha- it, like, you know, I, it's
687
:
00:35:39
like I want her to be at fault for,
you know, her, her ruination here.
688
:
00:35:44
But, like, I kinda-- She just, it just
felt like she, dare I say, too stupid
689
:
00:35:49
to live a little bit of, like-- Or
just not having an active role in her
690
:
00:35:52
own life, and I know that, like, y-
it was the time and things like that.
691
:
00:35:57
But, like, people, women, everyone
had, had their own, what's the word?
692
:
00:36:02
Like, worlds, you know what I mean?
693
:
00:36:04
And, and, and, and thoughts
and agency, that's it.
694
:
00:36:07
I'm just like, I kind of wanted
to see a little more agency.
695
:
00:36:10
And then, like, it was almost
like, oh, she didn't have agency.
696
:
00:36:14
And then it kind of made her, oddly
enough, a little less interesting,
697
:
00:36:20
which is weird, you know, because
the, what's happened to her is
698
:
00:36:22
very traumatic and sad, and yeah.
699
:
00:36:25
Francesca : Yeah, and we do get a losing
virginity story, but I found it also
700
:
00:36:30
interesting that we do get that, but
because she's actually, you know, living
701
:
00:36:33
a double life and said different things
about who she is, uh, there's not a lot of
702
:
00:36:39
emphasis put into that particular scene.
703
:
00:36:42
I do wonder if by the time we get to,
you know, chapter twenty-two and on,
704
:
00:36:47
there's going to be a moment that we
find out that Luke realized that she
705
:
00:36:53
was a virgin because I imagine that
that would have been something that
706
:
00:36:57
he would have been able to tell 'cause
he wasn't drunk or anything like that.
707
:
00:37:00
So I imagine that that's probably
why he was also being more quiet
708
:
00:37:05
and like, you know, 'cause he, he
interestingly enough, he didn't want
709
:
00:37:10
to have sex with her because he knew
he was gonna send her away, and he
710
:
00:37:15
ends up doing it 'cause he's like,
"Well, I mean, she's just some widow.
711
:
00:37:19
It's not like I'm ruining her."
712
:
00:37:22
But then he gets that surprise, which
in s- in a way it is her lying, and
713
:
00:37:30
it's not what he signed up for, too.
714
:
00:37:32
So in, in some way it's also bad on her
side that that's kinda how it was treated.
715
:
00:37:37
But yeah, I'm interested to see
how it's gonna be handled after.
716
:
00:37:40
Becky: It makes, that kind
of stuff, I mean, I- it makes
717
:
00:37:43
me, like, so uncomfortable.
718
:
00:37:46
Like, I, I just, um, 'cause, you
know, there's things with like blood
719
:
00:37:50
and first of all, let's just talk
about scientifically, biologically,
720
:
00:37:56
like, her hymen could have already
been burst when she was on the
721
:
00:38:00
horse earlier that day, you know?
722
:
00:38:01
Like, and it's, it's
not usually like that.
723
:
00:38:05
The membrane isn't, it's not
like, I don't know, a piñata.
724
:
00:38:09
You know what mean?
725
:
00:38:10
And like, and I know that like a lot of
like stories kind of are relying on that
726
:
00:38:16
very thin membrane to kind of raise the
stakes, which kind of I'm just like,
727
:
00:38:20
maybe the, this day and age where, how
I am coming into like, I don't know,
728
:
00:38:26
what, what I find pleasurable, like, I'm
just like, "Ugh, God, this makes me s-,"
729
:
00:38:30
it's just like so like, it's just this,
the concept of virginity a-again, is
730
:
00:38:36
just like kind of getting to me lately.
731
:
00:38:39
And so, like, I'm, and I'm happy to
read this obviously, but it is, it
732
:
00:38:42
was very like, um, a little like,
ugh, like again, cringey, cringey.
733
:
00:38:48
Yeah.
734
:
00:38:48
Francesca : But the good thing is
that it was quick, and so far we
735
:
00:38:52
haven't seen a big deal about it.
736
:
00:38:54
I do kind of expect a bigger deal coming.
737
:
00:38:57
Becky: I know.
738
:
00:38:59
Francesca : I do.
739
:
00:39:00
Um, although, I don't know, the
last scene with him, he didn't seem
740
:
00:39:05
like it, but I think he was also a
little bit drunk, so I don't know.
741
:
00:39:09
Becky: Yeah.
742
:
00:39:10
He was drunk.
743
:
00:39:10
But I'm just like, it, it's
almost like why is this one tiny
744
:
00:39:14
little membrane such a big deal?
745
:
00:39:17
Like, can everyone leave her vagina, like
everyone leave everyone's vagina alone.
746
:
00:39:21
This is a, this is a, a, a s- a membrane.
747
:
00:39:24
It is It is m-a microscopic
tissue, and yet it has caused
748
:
00:39:29
wars, and it is the basis of so
many different stories, and I'm
749
:
00:39:34
Track 1: kind
750
:
00:39:34
Francesca : Yeah.
751
:
00:39:35
Becky : I'm sorry.
752
:
00:39:36
I'll get off my a, my high horse.
753
:
00:39:40
Francesca : That is true, though.
754
:
00:39:41
It is true.
755
:
00:39:42
'Cause I mean, obviously, if she was
a willing participant, even in this
756
:
00:39:47
scenario, um, if it does come back,
which I, I think it will, um, with him
757
:
00:39:52
being, uh, upset about the fact that he
thought she wasn't a virgin and then,
758
:
00:39:58
you know, he could tell that she was
a virgin, like if it becomes an issue.
759
:
00:40:02
But she was a willing
participant when it happened.
760
:
00:40:04
Like, at least on the...
761
:
00:40:07
Besides a couple of small kisses where
he forced himself on her, at least
762
:
00:40:14
we did not get the- the experience
of "The Flame and the Flower," which
763
:
00:40:17
so far I am extremely thankful for.
764
:
00:40:22
And I did have my concerns
when Slade showed up.
765
:
00:40:27
Becky: Yes, that made me concerned that
766
:
00:40:29
I,
767
:
00:40:29
Francesca : a little
scared, I'm not gonna lie.
768
:
00:40:32
Becky: yeah, I started to feel the fear
that I felt in Flame and the Flower of
769
:
00:40:36
like, "Oh, is he gonna like rape her?"
770
:
00:40:38
You Um, and, and then just like everyone's
response to it w-was horrifying of just
771
:
00:40:46
like, "Well, this is, like you just gotta
772
:
00:40:49
fast."
773
:
00:40:50
Yeah.
774
:
00:40:51
Like, and it's such a, um, again,
like that stuff makes, like is like,
775
:
00:40:55
ugh, so cringey and ma- and makes me
uncomfortable and scared for her in,
776
:
00:40:59
in a, in a different way and like,
again, I, it's like, okay, what did
777
:
00:41:04
readers think back then about that?
778
:
00:41:06
You know what I Like w-were they as
scared for her as readers today would
779
:
00:41:10
be, know?
780
:
00:41:11
Yeah.
781
:
00:41:12
Francesca : 'cause for sure, like, the
moment that, you know, middle of the
782
:
00:41:15
night and he comes, I was petrified.
783
:
00:41:18
And then even when, uh, he's saying,
"I'm gonna, I'm gonna take you up the
784
:
00:41:23
mountain," I was like, "Oh my God.
785
:
00:41:24
No, they're not gonna go."
786
:
00:41:26
Palpitations until they finally make it.
787
:
00:41:29
And I'm like, "Okay.
788
:
00:41:30
All right.
789
:
00:41:30
So we made it so far."
790
:
00:41:34
Becky: Right.
791
:
00:41:34
And again, it just like, I'm like, I, I,
I was, as I was reading it, I was like,
792
:
00:41:38
"How am I supposed to be absorbing this?"
793
:
00:41:39
Like, because it, again, it felt so
cartoonish in a way where it felt
794
:
00:41:46
like Slade had like, you know, like
the, the, like had hearts coming
795
:
00:41:50
out of his eyes and he going like,
"Oh, ooh, that lady, da, da, da."
796
:
00:41:54
You know, like as if he,
797
:
00:41:55
Francesca : was
798
:
00:41:56
Becky: to- hi- like his total id was
taking over and I know that like,
799
:
00:42:01
that is, you know, kind of w-what,
what we're supposed to glean from it,
800
:
00:42:06
but I'm like, is it, are we supposed
to be reading this and enjoying it?
801
:
00:42:10
Like, not enjoying it, but are we
supposed to be reading this and,
802
:
00:42:13
and it's like, "Oh boy," like,
you know, "here she goes again."
803
:
00:42:16
Or like, are we supposed to be laughing?
804
:
00:42:18
Like what, h-how is this
supposed, how does the author
805
:
00:42:23
want this to be interpreted?
806
:
00:42:25
Francesca : Yeah.
807
:
00:42:26
Yeah.
808
:
00:42:26
And maybe it was the fear,
the fear for the character and
809
:
00:42:29
the situation that she's in.
810
:
00:42:30
At least that's how I'm gonna take it.
811
:
00:42:32
Um, I did feel the fear for the situation
she was in, so that did come across.
812
:
00:42:37
Besides the fact that, yes, I
feel Slade was very cartoonish.
813
:
00:42:41
Um, most characters feel like that because
I think we haven't gotten the depth.
814
:
00:42:47
We really, we really needed a little
bit more depth, and I think they,
815
:
00:42:50
they wouldn't be as cartoonish
'cause I actually think the heart
816
:
00:42:53
of the story, like the plot, it...
817
:
00:42:55
like, it's not a mystery, but you
know, like the, the whole revenge plot
818
:
00:42:58
with the mail order bride, with the
mistaken identity, like there's a lot of
819
:
00:43:02
stakes, uh, which I get excited about.
820
:
00:43:05
So, my hope for the second half is that
we get into the, you know, quickly.
821
:
00:43:13
Let me, let me rephrase that.
822
:
00:43:15
That we get into quickly, not like just
in the last couple of chapters, into the
823
:
00:43:21
explosiveness of what the story can bring.
824
:
00:43:24
Becky: Yeah, because the, the setup is
very intriguing, and, like, I-- y-you kind
825
:
00:43:29
of wanna get to the point where, like...
826
:
00:43:32
Like, I'm waiting for the point where
the two of them are, like, kind of
827
:
00:43:35
working tog- they love e- like, they
already love each other, and they're
828
:
00:43:37
like, "Okay, how are we gonna get this?
829
:
00:43:38
How are we gonna follow
through with this?"
830
:
00:43:39
Like, like, I kind of wanna see them,
I don't know, um, but that's just me.
831
:
00:43:44
Francesca : Start admitting that
they're having some feelings, yeah.
832
:
00:43:47
Becky: Exactly, and, like, get Slade
out of the picture, and, you know,
833
:
00:43:50
like, I you know, all of this stuff.
834
:
00:43:52
Francesca : the doors.
835
:
00:43:53
Becky: yeah.
836
:
00:43:54
I am curious as to how, 'cause it is
kind of exciting in the way of, like,
837
:
00:43:58
the, in a way that a spaghetti Western
is exciting of, like, okay, how are
838
:
00:44:02
they gonna get, take down this bad guy,
839
:
00:44:05
Francesca : Yeah.
840
:
00:44:05
Becky: and yeah.
841
:
00:44:07
Francesca : Yeah, so that's exciting.
842
:
00:44:08
Also, I think this might be my first
mail order bride story, like Western.
843
:
00:44:14
Um, 'cause I was trying to it,
and I, I don't think that I've
844
:
00:44:19
read a mail order Western story.
845
:
00:44:23
Becky: What
846
:
00:44:23
Francesca : think I probably have, I've
probably read an alien m-mail order
847
:
00:44:28
Becky: what I was just about to say.
848
:
00:44:30
Like, I feel my first human
mail-order bride book.
849
:
00:44:33
I've read, and, like, what
does that say about me?
850
:
00:44:36
Of my first human on human
mail-order bride book where
851
:
00:44:39
I'm like, "Ew, this is weird."
852
:
00:44:41
Francesca : There's two of us.
853
:
00:44:43
Becky: Yeah.
854
:
00:44:43
Francesca : Yes.
855
:
00:44:44
Had it been a blue alien,
it is totally fine.
856
:
00:44:47
I can understand that.
857
:
00:44:48
I can get behind.
858
:
00:44:49
Sign me up.
859
:
00:44:51
Becky: Yeah, this different circumstances,
Like, uh, that is so funny, yeah.
860
:
00:44:55
Like, I think that's, like, what
feels is, like, kinda weird about it.
861
:
00:44:58
Like, I'm, like, more uncomfortable.
862
:
00:45:00
Francesca : It's so uncomfortable.
863
:
00:45:01
Like, I would be totally fine
signing up for that service for an
864
:
00:45:05
alien to take me out of this planet.
865
:
00:45:08
But as soon as you tell me
like, "No, I gotta go to this
866
:
00:45:11
stranger's house in Arizona"-
867
:
00:45:14
Becky: And Ugh.
868
:
00:45:16
Francesca : And actually I do like that
she told him, like, "You could've just
869
:
00:45:19
hired somebody if this what you needed.
870
:
00:45:24
could pay, you know, you could've just
paid somebody to do your chores around
871
:
00:45:27
the house and you would've been fine."
872
:
00:45:30
Becky: Yeah, yeah, 'cause that's
essentially that is what is, he is
873
:
00:45:33
expecting of her, I don't think it's
uncommon for even in a r-real mail
874
:
00:45:39
order bride situation, like, for
them to be like, "Oh, my wife's gonna
875
:
00:45:42
come out here and over the chores."
876
:
00:45:44
Like, it's
877
:
00:45:45
Francesca : And if there's children,
like, take o- you know, take care
878
:
00:45:47
of the kids, care of the house, um,
feed the ranch hands and, you know.
879
:
00:45:52
Yeah.
880
:
00:45:53
Becky: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
881
:
00:45:55
Francesca : but yeah, so I'm, I'm
excited to see what the second part
882
:
00:45:59
of this, um, discussion brings us.
883
:
00:46:01
But for sure it's been...
884
:
00:46:04
Like, I've, I've enjoyed it
only because also it's been
885
:
00:46:06
so easy to read it, you know?
886
:
00:46:09
Like, I think, I think I read the 21
chapters in one sitting in a night,
887
:
00:46:16
Becky: too.
888
:
00:46:17
Francesca : Like, it was so
889
:
00:46:18
fast.
890
:
00:46:20
Becky: Yeah, yeah.
891
:
00:46:21
It's a, and it's, and honestly,
kind of like The Flame and the
892
:
00:46:23
Flower, like, it grips you.
893
:
00:46:25
You are gripped as a reader, and I
894
:
00:46:26
think, when something is an easy read,
it also means it's engaging, I think.
895
:
00:46:33
You know?
896
:
00:46:34
And so obviously we're
engaged by it our misgivings.
897
:
00:46:37
Francesca : Yeah, absolutely.
898
:
00:46:38
Absolutely.
899
:
00:46:39
I think it's engaging in a
completely different way than
900
:
00:46:42
Flame and the Flower, you know?
901
:
00:46:44
That one was tension and, um, just at
every turn you were having some kind
902
:
00:46:50
of heavy emotion, and here been really
e- really easy, uh, to get through.
903
:
00:46:57
Even, yes, there's some uncomfortable
cringey parts, but even that
904
:
00:47:01
hasn't pulled me off completely.
905
:
00:47:03
Like, in, in some ways I remember
reading about this book, and I've
906
:
00:47:08
heard so many people talk about how
the hero was, um, like really mean and
907
:
00:47:14
all this stuff, and I'm like, "Well,
actually, I was expecting him to be
908
:
00:47:18
worse from everything I've read."
909
:
00:47:22
I w- not that he's great, but I
mean, it kind of makes sense that
910
:
00:47:25
he's being like that 'cause that's
his intention, to run her away.
911
:
00:47:29
So, I'm like, "I was expecting
him to be really, really bad," and
912
:
00:47:35
I'm pleasantly surprised.
913
:
00:47:37
Becky: Yeah, he's kind of more of
a bully in this book versus in the
914
:
00:47:41
previous book, in "Flame and the
Flower," he-- that, that's mean.
915
:
00:47:45
Like, it re- you know, to say the very
least, like he's a tyrant versus...
916
:
00:47:49
They're, they're just a different kind
of mean maybe, and it is of interesting
917
:
00:47:52
to hear readers say that because
like it, it's like, okay, what...
918
:
00:47:56
It, it says more about the person than it
does about the story of like, oh, what to
919
:
00:48:00
you feels mean to you, and like, oh, okay,
like that, that's kind of fascinating.
920
:
00:48:06
Francesca : Yeah, 'cause in, in a way
also, like, me growing up watching a lot
921
:
00:48:10
of telenovelas, this is normal behavior.
922
:
00:48:15
Like,
923
:
00:48:15
Becky: Oh my God,
924
:
00:48:16
totally,
925
:
00:48:17
Francesca : you're watching the
soaps, this is the kind of stuff
926
:
00:48:20
that the, the characters...
927
:
00:48:21
And they go harder and worse,
and this didn't quite deliver.
928
:
00:48:26
And I almost have to wonder if there
was a bit of influence of like, you
929
:
00:48:32
know, the soap operas of the time in
Johanna Lindsey's writing, because you,
930
:
00:48:36
you do get a little bit of that vibe.
931
:
00:48:38
Like, this could have been some
kind of a soapy family drama at the
932
:
00:48:44
Becky: Totally.
933
:
00:48:45
You know what's interesting is that I
started rewatching, not rewatching, but
934
:
00:48:50
catching up with "Days of Our Lives"
recently and leaving it on in the
935
:
00:48:54
background, and, um, just seeing how,
like, just all of the heightened emotions
936
:
00:49:00
in that o- of how soapy it, like how
soapy it is and how much we see it in
937
:
00:49:06
romances in such a divine, great way.
938
:
00:49:08
This isn't, again, not diminishing
the genre, but just like this focus on
939
:
00:49:13
emotion and how much we need it and how
like, oh, there-- I feel like there was
940
:
00:49:18
this time where like, it was like great
writing was equated with like nuance
941
:
00:49:24
and, and making the reader or the viewer
work for understanding and, and trying
942
:
00:49:30
to like teach them about like our common
humanity and stuff, and it's just like,
943
:
00:49:34
just say what the, just like l- what,
what's character You know what I mean?
944
:
00:49:37
Francesca : Just tell me what
they're Tell me what they're feeling,
945
:
00:49:40
and show me what they're feeling.
946
:
00:49:41
Like, make them react in
the most outrageous ways.
947
:
00:49:45
Becky: Mm-hmm.
948
:
00:49:46
Yeah, yeah.
949
:
00:49:47
We, we, we're here for the story, man.
950
:
00:49:48
Just like we're, we, we strapped
in and, and this rollercoaster
951
:
00:49:52
go as fast as possible.
952
:
00:49:58
Francesca: and that
wraps up our first part.
953
:
00:50:00
Discussion of Tender is The
Storm by Johanna Lindsay.
954
:
00:50:04
Remember that we're gonna have part two
up next week and I encourage you guys to
955
:
00:50:08
come and participate in the comments on
the blog post for tender is the storm.
956
:
00:50:12
I will leave that link in the comments but
as always, if you want to just reply to
957
:
00:50:16
the email that you get for the book club.
958
:
00:50:17
I will be sharing a roundup of comments
as well in the next email that you get.
959
:
00:50:22
Thanks so much for being part of
the Ripped and Ravished book club,
960
:
00:50:24
and I will see you in the next one.
961
:
00:50:26
Bye.
