We made it. In this episode of Reading Under the Covers, a romance novel podcast, we are coming to the end of the first Ripped & Ravished Book Club, Francesca (Under the Covers Book Blog) and Becky (Too Stupid to Live Podcast) cover Chapters 9-10 of The Flame and the Flower by Kathleen E. Woodiwiss, and the last two chapters feel like the book suddenly swerves into an entirely different genre with an epic finale.

We finally get the long teased romance payoff (yes, that probing scene, Becky clocked the exact page), plus the most chaotic party in Charleston, peak jealousy, and the book's ultimate talent: miscommunication as a lifestyle. Then the story goes full gothic romance meets slasher: blackmail, bodies turning up, a surprise reveal, and Heather's London past crashing back into the present.

We also talk about what actually works here (tension, suspense, and the feeling that Woodiwiss was writing from pure author freedom and desire rather than market formulas), what still doesn't, and why this book remains such an important artifact in romance history, even if it's complicated to "rate" with modern eyes.

Catch up here (and watch the video of this episode): https://www.underthecoversbookblog.com/the-flame-and-the-flower-review/

Content warnings: discussion includes rape/forced seduction, coercion, violence, murder/death, blackmail, and misogyny. Please take care of yourself.

What's next: We're not done with Ripped & Ravished, coming up, we'll be talking with romance authors who loved this book when it first hit, and what it's like to revisit it now. And of course announcing what is our next read for March/April.

Timestamps

00:00 Why It Feels Original

00:25 Podcast Setup And Warnings

01:39 Final Chapters Reaction

02:17 Horse Ride Flirting

06:39 Party Jealousy And Louisa

08:41 Assault Trope And Gothic Vibes

12:45 Miscommunication And Consent Tension

21:47 Upstairs During The Party

28:23 Chapter Ten Serial Killer Twist

29:02 Whodunit Clues And Blackmail

31:13 Louisa Murder Suspicions

31:43 Doubt and Confession

32:39 Heather Blackmail Spiral

33:50 Romance Meets Suspense

35:10 Explosive Final Chapters

36:24 He Knew All Along

37:36 Accountability and Consent

41:41 Female Pleasure Awakens

42:52 Can You Rate This

54:55 The Bath Obsession

59:38 Publishing Then vs Now

01:03:00 Why Readers Want Original

01:07:16 Wrap Up and Next Steps

Links to join the book club + resources

Ripped & Ravished Book Club hub:

https://www.underthecoversbookblog.com/bodice-ripper-book-club/

Sign up for the book club newsletter:

https://underthecovers.myflodesk.com/ripped-ravished

Kathleen E. Woodiwiss Author Guide:

https://www.underthecoversbookblog.com/kathleen-e-woodiwiss-author-guide/

Romance Evolution through the Decades (1970s):

https://www.underthecoversbookblog.com/history-of-1970s-romance-novels/

1970s Romance: Iconic Romance Novels:

https://www.underthecoversbookblog.com/1970s-romance-novels/

Follow Becky / Too Stupid to Live Podcast:

https://tstlpodcast.substack.com

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/too-stupid-to-live-romance-reviews-%245-and-under/id1141770521

https://open.spotify.com/show/2rhn2BiyPFDZNMXIHxi2jC

https://www.instagram.com/tstlpodcast/?hl=en

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that's also what feels very refreshing by reading it because

it feels wholly original.

Like this is something that someone just came up with that they wrote

because they were desiring it.

It had nothing to do with finding an agent.

This was just written out of just the love of writing and I, and that's pretty cool.

Welcome to Reading Under the covers of Romances novel podcast,

where we chat fangirl and maybe even swoon over our latest reads.

I'm Francesca from Under the Covers book blog, and today I will be joined

by Becky from the Too Stupid to Live podcast for our last discussion,

chapter by chapter, discussion on the Flame and the Flower by Kathleen E.

Woodiwiss we've been going over this book every two chapters, discussing

them here on the podcast as part of our ripped and ravished book club.

If you wanna join us, we are reading bodice, rippers, vintage romances,

picking one every two months and discussing it here with you guys.

So I will have all the details if you wanna join the book club

in the show notes down below.

And I do recommend that you join the email list for it and reply to the emails

and join in on the conversation as well.

Now in today's episode, we are at the end of our discussion.

So it's the last two chapters in the book and I will also give you content warnings

that we are going to be discussing in this episode forced seduction rape.

Blackmail, violence, death, murder and other things.

So if you do need to skip this episode, please take care of yourself but we are

very excited to be coming to the end of reading this wonderful, important

book within the romance genre and discussing it here with you guys.

So let's just dive right into it.

we finished it.

Oh my

it's done.

It's

It is done.

It is done.

I am excited that we finished it and like that I now have read this

like iconic piece of literature, these last two chapters though.

What a rollercoaster.

Rollercoaster of intensity.

it felt like an entirely different book.

You know what I mean?

It felt like, say, all of a sudden it was like a novella of

something incredibly different.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was very also like very soap opera, like the drama and the intensity.

And there was a little romance too.

It started off with a little romance actually.

So that's actually my first thing I wanted to talk about because chapter

nine opens with the horse scene, where he gives her a horse, they go out riding.

And finally he was trying he was really trying, I have to give it to him.

He was really trying

I wanted them to just do it in that moment.

'cause I'm like, it was a good time.

Like it was soft and cute and it would've been a soft time to, we've waited all

this time that would've been a good time.

I actually loved that he didn't do it like that.

They didn't do it.

And this is just my thing, but he gets her a horse and they're riding

and she comes back and she's so sore

Oh yeah, I know.

That part I totally understand.

I wanted them to do it over there in the rain

oh, when they were in the rain?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Go find, go find a little something.

You know how like they always find some cottage or something

to go and save themselves

exactly.

It was a good, it was a good rain scene.

It

that's what I was expecting, i'm like, Ooh, that would've been passionate.

It would've been cute.

I would've liked, yeah, no, absolutely not.

After she sore, I was like, good on you, because I've ha

I've experienced that pain,

Yeah.

I'd be like the second, she, like the second he was like, I'm gonna

get her a horse and hopefully that I'll have sex with her tonight.

I'm like, that sounds painful.

And I hate this.

This is the worst.

This is not wooing at all.

Yeah, for sure.

After she came back, I was like, there is no way that is happening,

and I hope he's not going to push the issue, which he didn't.

He didn't,

I was happy about that.

I was just like, are you an idiot?

Like, I was just like, I mean, you know.

I have to say he's not the brightest when it comes to wooing

Yeah.

And I like that he's being called out on it.

I like seeing him eat.

Shit a little bit.

You know what I mean?

Like it is fun to, yeah.

Yeah, but I like that whole like the before going, getting on the horse,

like they were flirting a little bit.

They were being sweet to each other.

And I'm like, oh, okay.

I can see them now as the couple that has been married.

They've been together now for a year, I'm assuming at this point.

I could see that in that one scene.

So it is probably my favorite scene.

Like just the, when he's getting her out of the house and telling

her, okay, just get on and he's oh, maybe you wanna change.

She's no, but I wanna go riding now.

And like the playfulness of that scene, I appreciate it.

And then it just explodes from there into wild chaos.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I did that moment where she was like, because I don't know, like you finally

saw more her personality again and and I think that's like kind of maybe.

Criticism of the book, of just we overall is that like we lose her personality

and so it's nice to see her get it back,

yeah.

We definitely see a lot more of her feelings in these two chapters,

whether it's her feelings towards him, the jealousy that she was feeling,

I loved that.

Yeah.

fear with, you know what, we'll get into what happens after, but all of that,

like we got to see so much more of her, which I really enjoyed and appreciated.

A-greed I, I really liked it was finally like, oh, something.

It was like coming full circle.

I agree.

It was nice to, be with her.

Yeah.

And you remember that one, scene at the inn when he went to get, this was at

the beginning, no, not beginning, maybe chapter five, when he goes off to get

the Websters and he's at the inn and you were saying like, he's doing the

right thing, but she's not there to see

Yeah.

We got that full circle moment with that scene because she

was told now about that moment.

So I appreciated the little connection that we got.

so glad about that.

Yeah.

'cause like she needed to know it was a good, like Mr. Darcy moment

of okay, he did the right thing, so yeah, I guess maybe it was like,

maybe an attempt to, okay, we, the reader know he's in a good place now.

She knows.

But I find it so, it's so funny because it was just so spread

apart and it's like frustrating.

But maybe that's just us as readers,

just want it now.

Yeah.

Just let's yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I appreciated that little tidbit.

Now in terms of where the story went next, so another thing that she was preparing

for at the time was throwing this first party, was it of the summer or spring?

I think it was summer.

So like throwing this lavish party, which again, I mean I am shocked that she has

the skills to know what to do because that sounds like a lot to put together.

But, I'm sure they had help or something.

So in that moment that, that whole party was crazy to me because we have one.

I loved seeing the whole jealousy from her side because

it showed a lot of her feelings.

So that part I loved, Louise was driving me insane.

From this point forward,

She just looks like, I it is sad what happens to Louise.

We'll spoil it, but eventually but at this point Louise just looks insane.

She does again, maybe this is our, my modern brain kind of analyzing

something of a character during a time where she didn't have a lot of

agency, but like she, she's starting to like, come off as psychotic, yeah,

yeah, for sure.

Psychotic, and I think a lot of it was coming across of her

motives being purely financial.

Like she was just really after that money, whatever I have to do to get that money,

yeah.

She just became very arched, very like just the female, classic female villain.

But I will say that it, the scene was nice because of the level of tension.

I was like very I finally found myself like very engaged.

Yeah, for sure.

And then of course, I love the fact that Heather wanted to wear

this sexy dress for her husband.

'cause she's like, he's gonna look at me and not at Louise.

So I love that part.

But of course then we have Matt coming and there had to be another leech

to come through and be horrible.

Am.

I like nuts.

But

like, why?

and it, there, and this isn't even the last of it I it's just astounding to

me, like how, like at the time where women just walking around just assuming

that they're gonna get assaulted and when they don't get assaulted,

they're like, I had a good day today.

It is just 'cause like I like it again, I know the argument of this was the time

moires were different than, but like, when it comes to story structure, just

even as like a story element it gets old.

You know what I mean?

And it it was like.

Because I felt this way with Outlander as well, of just like when in doubt if

we need a plot twist, it's gonna be a woman gets assaulted and it's just it, I

don't know, it just like diminishes the, it just, it plateaus the tension a little

bit, which I'm sad because I, 'cause it is a bit, is a very serious thing.

It's a terrible thing to have happened, but just it just feels so thrown in

and I think that's so hard to read.

Or not hard to read, but it just just jarring a little bit.

It was jarring.

But you know What actually made me think when we got to that point where it's

okay, there's another scene like that.

And Birmingham comes and rescues her, but he is also forceful, like we went

back to the forced seduction trope.

'cause he rescues her at a moment where she was scared, she thought she was going

to get raped and so he rescues her and immediately he has to assert his ownership

over her and pushes her against a tree and like kisses her and all of this stuff

where up to now he was really trying to seduce her like in a more normal way.

And then we go back to the forced seduction.

And the one thing that I was thinking about when I read that particular

part of the book is because of the times, also what was very popular

at the time was gothic novels.

And in a way it did make me think that this book had so much like, especially

these last two chapters felt so much like reading a gothic romance of the seventies,

because it's like you always have to put the woman in peril all the time.

There's all these things that are going to threaten her and like at every corner.

So I'm like, I wonder if that had some influence in

I I

Because that's probably what the author was also reading

'cause consuming at the time.

100% because I feel like something that is what I love about.

Gothic romances or like gothic.

There's, it's almost like a, whodunit and that's what this becomes, is that all of

a sudden there's like a serial killer,

Yeah.

And and it all and her previous past is going, is coming back to haunt her.

She's going through like some fan, and this in a, some fantastic psychological

terror as she's coming to terms with that.

She has to tell, Birmingham what she did and

which she really doesn't.

She really doesn't, but I loved seeing her si I loved seeing her suffer in that way.

yes.

Yeah.

No I do have to say that was a nice surprise.

I was not expecting that to come back around, only because of

how the book has gone up to now.

Like obviously that makes sense because, how do you leave we've even

mentioned it before, how do you leave something so big floating around?

But up to now, there's been no indication that we were going to get this exciting

finale, and yes, a serial killer and her past coming back to haunt her is exciting.

Like that.

That was amazing.

Like I was like

I loved a little murder.

Yeah, like reading these two chapters.

I was like, we have our sex, we have our tension.

This why people bought the book for the last two chapters.

I even wrote 'cause you know how we were talking about like, when is the

page that people flip to to that?

It's specifically page 3 52.

Page 3 52.

I wrote down page 52.

The page.

Yeah, that's the page.

Alright.

Let's see, what were they doing?

Okay.

Yeah.

That is the probing of

sure.

Womanhood.

It finally gets probed on page 3 52.

Which, okay and we'll get back to the murder in a second, but when it finally

comes to the point that her womanhood is going to be probed for a second, I

was so scared because it starts off like it's going to be another rape scene.

does.

And

And I knew that it wasn't going to be, 'cause we already know that it's

only the first time, from, I guess what we've known of the book before.

So I was just so concerned.

And then he goes off in the other room and he didn't want it.

So he was just feeling like so conflicted.

And I did appreciate that 'cause like that conflict showed that he didn't want

his marriage to go this way, but he felt okay, this can't go on in this situation.

Like, how long is this gonna go on?

Which, not that it's right, but I could understand that point.

God forbid these two could just have a conversation.

And

that's all they needed to do.

To, to the extent of there's one part where like he won't have a conversation

and he's going to the point where he will walk out of his house in the middle

of the night to take a bath in a river.

So many baths again, but we'll get

many bats again.

But yeah, it's again, can you imagine like getting in a fight with someone now and

it's they won't even tell you how they feel and they go out to a public ponds or

like just like water with vermin in it and you're not even gonna that's what you do.

Instead of just being like, let me tell you what's in my heart.

Like

They, and then there's a part also where they actually talk

about the miscommunication.

This is what he thought and this is what she thought.

And they're like, what?

You thought that, but I thought this.

And I was just like it was so dumb that you guys couldn't have

had this conversation earlier.

Like we could have still had all the excitement of the serial killer

and all that stuff and had a little bit more happy marriage in it

versus, that, that long stretch of Ohio that you were talking about.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like I feel like the middle of the book is pretty, the pacing just slows down.

But I will say, like with this, there were times where it was

like, is he gonna tell her?

Are they gonna, whatever.

And then he just says the wrong thing.

He just is so close.

It's like they're so close to just making this right.

And then all of a sudden he says something or he brings up

something and I'm like, come on.

It's always like misunderstandings, ego, pride, like on both of their sides.

'cause sometimes she's also doing that.

What is it with you?

People being so prideful.

Talk to each other, you're married, talk to each

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like he'll say some he'll compliment her and then she'll bring up Louisa.

He'll he'll, whatever.

Like he'll talk about something and then not that.

And, but then he will also bring up and I, and.

If I have to rape you, I will.

You know what I mean?

Like it's just like you are saying the wrong things.

How do you not realize you're saying the wrong things?

It's wild.

So there were a lot of like tying of loose ends that I also really liked

because we also have the tying of the at the very end, I mean I'm probably

jumping ahead, but at the very end we have the tying of the loose end of what

he overhears when she's sick on the boat.

That's right.

And I love

And I love that.

'cause I was like, when is he gonna, because obviously he heard all this stuff

and now he knows that she killed someone and she was almost raped, which I love

that he knows and he actually respe.

Right.

And so I actually like that he respected that and like he's, he hasn't brought it

up and he was waiting for her to say it.

'cause I thought at some point maybe he's gonna bring it up.

And he never did.

But it was great how it was brought about in the book.

It's like he was connecting those dots.

And when Mr. Flint shows up, he connects all the dots, him himself, and then

he doesn't even say anything to her 'cause he's still trying to protect her.

So I did appreciate that.

I like that.

This is oddly respectful, like, why can't you bring that level of respect to sex?

Protecting and all of the things were more important, I guess for sure.

Also, something, speaking of sex and all of that, it was hysterical to me

when he's talking about, she's talking about the fact that she thought she

killed William Court and she's feeling maybe a little guilty and all of that.

And he says to her something along the lines of it, it was what he deserved.

And I'm thinking, so how was it different when you did it that you

cannot see that because you just said that it was completely justified

that she killed this guy or that, she thought she did, whatever it could have

ended that he was dead by her hand.

And that was justified in your mind because of what he did.

But it, you don't feel any remorse.

Yourself.

yeah, the

That part.

I didn't get it.

Yeah.

That I was just like this guy.

Yeah, the lack of self-awareness was astounding.

And again, I'm trying so hard not to put my modern lens to back to this story that

was not only written in the past, it's of an even former past, but yeah, just it's,

there's just some moments where I'm like, your lack of self-awareness is astounding,

even just not, even for the time period.

It's astounding because like you're a human being who has a brain and thinks

Yeah, seriously.

I mean because obviously you understand it even for the times.

'cause you are saying that it's wrong for someone else, but not for you.

Yeah,

So that has nothing to do with at times, that's a you problem.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I know I jumped ahead a little bit there, but we were at the party.

And at the party.

I actually also really liked the connection of Heather with Jeff in

these two chapters, and Jeff was good

Yeah.

Was a good wing man.

And also when she comes back in after the alter, I'm gonna call it

Altercation with Matt and Birmingham, because he didn't make it better.

Yeah.

He saves her, but he

make the whole better.

I had of just in this moment, the fact that he's not asking

his wife, are you okay?

Yeah.

That to me is again I, I understand these are the times he is

sexually frustrated, whatever.

And she enjoyed what happened when it was with him, but the fact that you wouldn't

be like, Madam, are you all right?

That drives

just for a second.

Hello.

She was scared.

She thought something was going to happen.

Exactly.

That drives me nuts.

It and it, and even now that he knows what she has been

through, this whole time oh God.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So they go back inside.

I know,

to let that out.

I completely agree.

'cause I had the same, I was like, I was getting like, aggravated and like

angry and stuff, and I'm like, but why can't you just, it sh this just happened.

Just assure her you can still be mad because like you think

that she shouldn't have been dancing and all the, okay, great.

Fine.

So you can still show that, but at least check in that she is okay.

know.

And what I hate even more is that it was actually pretty sensually written.

It was really well written.

It was like very sexy.

But it was just like going from like having something hot to

something suddenly very cold.

And our teeth were hurting from it.

Like it was like having brain, it was brain, it was literary brain freeze.

That's what it felt like of just like suddenly the coldness

and we're not prepared for it.

And our teeth get numb.

Yeah.

There was, I think there was a few times in this in these two

chapters where I felt that also there was a little bit of whiplash

with okay, no no, now I'm annoyed.

There was a lot of that back and forth.

But yeah, so Jeff, when she comes back in, he actually, you know

how, like before we said that he knew that she had been assaulted

basically by her, by his brother, and he didn't do anything with that.

And this time, so his first question was if Matt did anything and he was

gonna beat him up, and then immediately after that he said, did either of them.

Do anything to you.

And I really appreciated that from coming from Jeff.

that was a level of self-awareness or not self-awareness, but a level

of awareness that I was like, okay.

Yeah.

It's

It's I'm not gonna let my brother do this again.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Even though it was interesting to see him say that because he was so nonchalant up.

He, there was a level of nonchalance he had when he found out.

But.

Still, like it was good.

That 'cause it, this is a, the whole night is tense.

We're not only with like her getting attacked and being leered at, we have

the jealousy, we have Louisa, like this is honestly the worst party in

the wor and I, and it needed to happen.

But this was like the worst party ever.

Yeah.

Ultimate like the worst night.

Existence and then it turns into the best night for her 'cause

her womanhood gets probed.

Her womanhood

with all these people in the house,

I know, but it maybe, it was good because they didn't hear,

they were too busy talking.

I think of all the moments where I was expecting it to finally

happen, it was not that moment.

And it was not like that,

It

like I

rudest time.

yes, it was.

If there is a rude time to have your womanhood probed, it's when you're

hosting a party and then you suddenly leave and everyone's standing there being

And everybody knows what you're doing.

Exactly.

Yeah.

They all know what you're doing.

And it's great.

If like why did it's come on, do the, okay guys, thanks for coming.

It was great having you.

Party's gonna end.

You can't stay here.

Go to a pub.

Like there wasn't that.

It was just like, let's go upstairs and not care about our guests that we invited.

Where are is your hospitality, sir?

Yes.

Yeah, basically.

He had it he just had to have her.

Right now, I cannot wait one more

Yeah.

It's dear God, and

waited up to, now you could have waited to make it like cute and whatever.

Totally, and there's gonna be like people talking.

It's did you go to that party?

That was like really weird how he just left.

I would be talking about that for years to come of remember that

party when they were like just left?

Who does that?

That's something I would be hard if I was like an invitee to that party.

I'd be thinking about that for the rest of my life Being like, it was weird.

It was weird, right?

Yeah.

And remember, like they, it's not like they were all watching tv.

So they're all, they all know where everybody is at all times in those

times, everybody has to be nosy.

Everybody has to know what you're doing.

It's no, they went upstairs.

But to go back on a, to completely do 180 on what I just said, to disagree

with myself right now there was this kind of like looming rumor that they

weren't sleeping in the same bed.

And I and that to me again, is so disgusting, but something,

oddly enough we still do today.

I am just thinking about on summer House with Amanda and Kyle's divorce

of they're not sleeping the same bed.

So I can understand that okay, maybe there is a triumph in a way

because it is proving to the public that they are with each other.

But still in terms of decor and party manners it was not good manners.

No, it was not.

Yeah.

So that was an interesting choice, I think of all the places I just kept saying to

myself like, I really wanted it to be at a different time and in a different way.

I've waited all this time, but I still thought that it was well done.

Yeah.

And it's like interesting to see what context different readers, like for

there's always that sex scene or that love scene where the walls are finally

down and they're finally able to be with each other, be their true selves.

And that's always like my favorite sex scene.

'Cause I think there's like a, for me.

It says a lot about me.

I think with the lack of, there's no stress anymore.

There's, you're both very honest, you're honest with yourself.

There's a level of safe vulnerability versus people who actually would

prefer the kind of more high stakes stress thing of there are so much

going on and I like, these characters, like they don't know what to do.

Oh, they have to fuck it out.

Sorry for my language, but it is, it does, it is interesting, like what

to see what different romance readers prefer as like their kind of like ideal

love scene, and I think it says a lot about like the stakes that you need.

What is getting you excited?

What do you need in order to be your most vulnerable?

Do you need a lot of stress or do you need no stress?

It's fascinating.

I think sometimes it's okay to have stress, but I feel like for this

particular one, 'cause there was so much buildup, I would've liked that

it would've been something where they, the walls had come down, they

had connected, and it was in a safer.

Environment, like with the horse scene, like I feel like that

would've been the soft landing for that scene and we didn't get the

for her.

No, we are scared for her given that we've been with her since, her beginning.

And obviously she doesn't need I what's it call?

It's something where it's like, you need like tension in order to like,

Thrive.

Yeah.

in order to thrive, and it's like she's not that person and but if she

was like, let's say if she was like, okay, she needs something to like.

Stress her out in order to be able to give in.

Then I'd be like, okay, great.

This is what she wants.

Going upstairs and having sex with everyone downstairs, like she needs

that level of tension and or whatever.

I cannot think of the word right now, but it's there and people are thinking of the

word, but then I'd be like, okay, cool.

Yeah.

Like she, she likes the danger of it.

She likes the risk of it.

You need a risk, that's the word.

You like something risky.

But clearly this is not a risk loving woman.

No, not at all.

I think in fact, it, she has settled in, what is it nesting.

She is definite, she feels like she is nesting.

She is very comfortable.

She just wants to make the house nice.

She wants to now live her life.

So like she is the opposite of somebody that needs risk and thrills

and she's very happy and content with everything being normal,

She needs safety, she needs to feel safe.

And I think that's like a common thing for a lot of people of what they need in order

to be like their most vulnerable, yeah.

Yeah, but at least the only good thing with that particular scene is

because at first she gets angry when he gives his ultimatum, which I mean,

understandable, but she also like going back to the miscommunication.

Okay.

But we have to be honest with what we do want.

And obviously she knows that's what she's wanted.

So to now be like I'm gonna let myself be raped again when I actually

do want it, just because of pride.

Instead of just opening up and saying, yeah, this is actually what I want,

where our relationship should go.

So I appreciated that.

Even though she had her moment with the ashtray and whatever, and her

outbursts, she comes back from that.

Totally.

Yeah.

And I think that was like necessary.

He needed to know that, and that's that's not okay.

And so again, I kind of like added when they do finally do

it, I was like, I feel safe.

I feel mostly safe.

As safe as could be.

Yes.

Within this context.

'cause of course then after this, whatever, we're safe.

It's great, it's wonderful they're together.

But of course then people start turning up dead.

So we now go into the high stakes of there's a serial killer on the loose.

of a sudden it's that was chapter nine.

Chapter 10 is suddenly everyone's dead.

And I'm like, this is horrifying.

This feels, this reads like a killer, a slasher movie.

Honestly.

I'm like, where are we now?

Yeah.

Which, to me I love those.

So I'm like this, this feels great.

'cause it's like it's, it was almost like a soap opera at

the end, like we just threw in.

Even though in some ways it's been a soap opera up to now too.

But here we really amped up the drama.

There's, and honestly, I thought that the conversation that she threw

in where the first woman that comes up that she had mentioned Bartlett,

which was the guy that tried to rape not tried to rape, but whatever.

He was

as he

Heather, he attacked her.

And so I thought that was brought up because he's the guy.

I thought so too.

Yeah, I

like that's why we were giving a, and of all the people from London.

'cause if anything, I thought that the one that was gonna come from London and

be some crazy ass thing was going to be the boy that now I can't remember

Henry, was it

Henry, maybe?

Yes.

I thought that it was gonna be the guy that she stabbed and he was like, I

I lived, right?

around with a limp or something, or it just has this weird scar.

Like

didn't die.

of all the things I was not expecting.

The grand finale we got, which was exciting because usually I can figure

out who the killer is in all situations.

And I'm like, no, I don't know who this person is until she has her reaction

and then then he comes to the house, blackmailing her.

So like all of that.

And then of course we find out the thing, how like the backstory and

what happened with William Court, like the whole thing was great.

I was eating that up.

I was like, like I, it was, I read it like Wednesday night and I was like,

I'm just gonna read a little bit.

And I was like, I can't put this, I couldn't put the book down.

And

At that point you have to know,

you have to know and I give props to the author about that because you,

that wouldn't have happened without just like the perfect kind of, it's

almost like I wish the entire story were that, of just the perfect amount

of clues and you, it keeps you wanting to know more of what's going on?

So yeah.

I was, it was good.

It was finally

of course, and then of course, every time that somebody turns up

dead, her husband is the one that

That's

prime suspect, because it really could have been, like everything is adding

up, which, you know that obviously he's I never suspected that it would go in

that direction, but I love that element.

there was one time where you do think, 'cause okay, spoiler, Louisa

is murdered by this serial killer.

And there is one point where, 'cause Louisa had said something that

just really incensed him, right?

And he, we know him as a guy who is very hotheaded.

He is a flame, if you will.

He's the flame of the flame and the flower.

And so when he goes to Con, because he goes to confront her and she,

we see her that she's already dead.

He discovers, but he goes to confront her and it's oh, I could, he have been

capable of doing something like this.

And you're like, and for a second you're just like.

I don't know.

And that, to me, great writing like that I love 'cause it is just like fucking

with your equilibrium, and it's good.

Yeah.

And also I appreciated that there is a conversation between him and Heather

where he is obviously oh, thanks for believing in me, but I could have done it.

Exactly.

He even says that, he was

admits it.

he admits it and there's something.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I actually love that 'cause he was being very honest.

'cause yeah, he is hotheaded and I guess he, he could have, I don't think

he could have gone through with it, but I could see him getting to that.

'cause he, she was pushing it.

Yeah, she was

was really pushing.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And and it's almost like she it, you may, it makes it seem like she knows about what

Heather did back in London and it and I was also like really stressed for Heather.

I get very str like I find it very stressful in stories when people

are being blackmailed and they can't tell their spouse and they're

like, she sold off the earrings.

Like I and she was doing all this stuff and was just

dealing with all of this alone.

But then when he would come home, she has to be the perfect wife.

That kind of stuff stresses me out in a good way.

It, for, as a reader.

And we didn't get a lot of that.

And I think that we could have gotten maybe even one more chapter of that

period of time and maybe do one less chapter of the other middle where

it's just like reliving the same daily struggle and do more of that.

'cause that could have been, there could have been so much of that

to explore where she is getting blackmailed and struggling with it

Totally.

I agree.

Yeah, absolutely.

And also maybe it was like something like, oh, okay, we wanna make sure this

is a love story, this is a romance.

But you could still infuse a lot of like romantic elements as she's

doing this, I don't know whatever.

It's okay, we're all here.

Like being like if I were writing it, blah, blah, blah, but yeah, for

Yeah, no, for sure.

I think that also, I don't think it was as popular to include any kind of suspense

besides like the gothic novels, but probably that would've been a concern.

If I go too much that route, then it would fall in that category, I imagine,

instead of the romance, which was opening in a new and different lane,

but it was strictly on the relationship.

So I guess it makes sense,

Yeah, for

like now we have all these sub genres, so we're like, oh, it should

have been more romantic thriller or romantic suspense or something.

Which is exciting because it, it tells you a lot more for the author, like

the writing of the author, that in, in a time where that was not existing,

she was able to be ahead of her time

Absolutely.

'cause like there was so many, again, like we were talking about in like

the first episode, the tropes that are introduced, you first you have

your billionaire trope introduced in this part, and then you also have like

your romantic suspense introduced in this part because I think something

that like makes romantic suspense so engaging is that our two love interests

are keeping secrets from each other.

And that is what keeps that is just like what keeps you engaged.

And so given that this is what those, this is what the final

chapter is about, is the secrets that they're keeping from each other.

It, that's why maybe it feels like it's suddenly a romantic suspense.

Yeah.

I definitely think it was so well done.

Those two chapters were like, this climactic, so well done ending.

Everything was just exploding around them in a way.

And I'm like, oh, this is great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was like

there's blood, there's murder, there's, Ooh,

And they, and there's also they realizing how much they love each other in the end.

Like it was like, okay, now I see why it was so popular for it.

But I think it was just these last two chapters.

Those are the last two chapters.

That's where

actually see, yeah, you actually see the love in these two chapters.

I feel like it was so believable how we got there.

'cause even as much as Birmingham was being an ass still, he managed to

find the way in these two chapters.

But you do get to see, he does care for her.

He does

yeah, like Birmingham is always gonna be an asshole, but like here,

finds a, he finds a way.

he finds a way.

Yeah.

Like I, it's like you can't change who you are, but you could change

how you are, and he does do that.

They feel like the, we've been with them so long, like they've been

married most of this book, and it finally feels like they're a couple,

that they're going to have a future.

And even going back to what he heard on the boat and because she's going through

all this stuff this blackmail, she doesn't tell him anything because she doesn't

want him to know that she killed somebody.

'cause she still thinks that she killed him.

And by the time, it's time for her to get saved again.

He already knows.

And that's where she realizes that he's known.

And I think that there is something to be said for that too,

absolutely.

Yeah.

Because I think as a reader, we think he doesn't know.

He doesn't know.

So as much as a surprise, as it is for her it's a surprise for

us as a reader, which honestly I don't know why I didn't think that.

'cause I was like, maybe he just didn't piece things together.

He just thought when she was sick, she's just saying stuff

willy-nilly, it doesn't make sense.

He doesn't really listen, but he does.

He does.

And that was surprising.

yeah.

Yeah.

And also the fact that she thought he wouldn't accept that,

finding out that, okay, your wife killed somebody, which thank God.

I mean, It goes, we go through the whole spiel and she didn't actually

kill William Court, and it was always Thomas that had done it.

But still he was fine with it.

He's

yeah,

totally fine,

to add my modern day criticism though again, the fact that he never

apologized for that night though.

Like she came in after what just happened.

He did what he did and even, and a part of him, I just wanted him to feel

like just to, I, I'm assuming, yeah.

I'm assuming he feels remorse and won't admit to it because he is a guy, whatever.

I just wanted to feel more of his remorse of oh, this happened as well,

and that made what I did incredibly worse, and just be taking, I just

wanted him to have, any ownership,

any, that's why when he said, this was the least you could do

when this guy did that to you.

So of course I don't have any problem.

And I was thinking, this is the perfect time for you to take just

this much accountability for the fact that you did the same and

you actually went through with it.

And you went through with it after knowing that she was not a prostitute.

So

Yeah.

Perfect opening was there for him to just spit out a couple of words.

I was wrong.

I was wrong.

That's all we need to hear.

It's not all we need to hear,

But that could have been something, like that would've been great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But yeah, definitely he was way more in his feelings.

So much in his feelings about I have to have her, I have to have her.

I cannot wait any longer.

I guess I don't think of men having these like fully uncontrollable urges

that they just cannot con I don't know, is it just like happening in their body?

I don't know.

But that's, to me, that's always been weird.

Like whenever people talk about that I just can't understand that.

it does.

'Cause there's like sometimes where I'm like, sometimes I feel like, okay, we

are all animals and and men are given more leeway to be animals than women are.

You know what I mean?

Of yeah.

Like I understand like we're fueled by our hormones and stuff like that.

But if you are just gonna say, men are gonna be men, such a hypocritical

way of thinking because we're all animals, and, but all at the

same time, we are a highly like.

Conscious animals that no matter what gender you are, self-control

is like kind of what differentiates ourselves from the rest of the animals.

Yeah, basically

Yeah.

'cause I mean I had the same thought when Matt was like, I can't control myself.

I have to have you.

And I'm just thinking like this whole thing is so bizarre.

'cause it isn't that like a friend,

Yeah,

Like somebody that went to school.

With Jeff.

I couldn't remember at the time, but I'm like, this is such a weird thing

for you to feel like you have to have this person when it's a member of

what is gonna be your extended family?

'cause those friendships were so important.

It's part of the extended family.

Like I just don't get it.

It almost it feels like there was like maybe a witch who put a curse on him.

Do you know what I mean?

That's what, that's the level of what it felt like of all of these men, drank

some potion because that turned them into these possessive, like people

who needed this because it just didn't make any sense of like, all you are

like this you're like, I need this.

And I'm like, how are you not in jail?

Like how, if this is your personality and you've always been this way, like

you, why are you not in an insane asylum?

Yeah, because at some point I feel like there's gotta be women that they can

go to that are willingly doing that.

So if that urge is there, there, there's places for you to go and do that,

exactly.

still an appropriate way for you to be behave with your friend's wife.

Exactly.

It's I don't buy that.

This is your breaking point.

I think your breaking point would've come a lot sooner if this is who you are.

True.

And lastly, we finally do have the female pleasure.

As much as there is the probing, but we do get to experience the fact

that she is finally having pleasure and how she makes a comment that she

wishes she would've known that 'cause it should have been happening sooner.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was really nice to see her take ownership of her full womanhood.

I will say there was a raunchy line that I was surprised to see in there and as like

a horn ball loser like me he was like, there was like one point where he was

like, now you're gonna go on another ride.

And I'm like, okay, this is good.

This is good.

It, I wasn't expecting it.

It was so raunchy.

And it's a joke that we would make these days if we wanted to be our

little perverted horn ball selves.

And I was like, okay, this feels, that felt very real.

Yeah, for sure.

Like after the one night where there's the probing, like after

that they feel so real as a couple.

Exactly.

'cause they're finally making like naughty, they make naughty

comments towards each other.

And I was like, this naughty comments have stood the test of time.

And now I know.

Yes, for sure.

So that was the end of finally the book.

What is your overall feeling of the book and like where it places, for you.

it's funny, there was one thing that I wrote down where I was like,

this is the first bodice ripper.

But in reality, no bodice was ripped.

It was her shift.

And we haven't been calling these shift rippers.

This is true.

yeah, I, from a like, historical context I am glad that I read it.

I like, and it did keep me engaged.

It was a good read.

It I know for what it is, I, I acknowledge, oh gosh.

I don't know.

I'm just saying I'm glad I read it.

I appreciate what it did and how it its existence has led to the existence

of one of my favorite pastimes.

So I will give it that it, but I think, both things can be true.

It's a book that, that I appreciate, but a book that I also, that was

also incredibly hard for me to digest because of what he does.

And I think if we're gonna live in a world where like multiple things can be

true for people, I think that it, with the multiple things can be true with

the things that people make as well.

And yeah.

yeah, for sure.

I think that it has, from a romance point of view, it did have a lot of value.

I think definitely these last two chapters is probably what really

brought the whole thing together.

I can totally see how that would've been.

Such an important moment for women for, the opening of the romance genre

as a whole and like the structure.

I could see the structure of a romance novel, even though now we're more used

to the, oh, the half of the book or whatever is them getting together.

And then the struggle of them starting to be together than a lot of times

the third act breakup and whatever.

And then they're finally, okay, maybe there's a marriage at the end

and here we go in a different order.

But, But I can totally see how this set of precedent for how

other things were going to go.

And I do think that there is merit to the hypothesis that women needed some

of that forcing in order to be given the permission to enjoy themselves.

Completely agree.

Yeah.

'cause I feel like I just remember thinking of like the autobiography I

read this or the biography of the guy who wrote Wonder Woman and how there

was a lot of like Wonder Woman being tied up and was it indicative of his

personal life with his two wives of did they enjoy being restricted and

does some level of restriction help you understand pleasure more and like that

dynamic and so something that like looks.

Like crazy to us from an outside perspective of is this person being

hurt or, to be taken advantage of?

Oh no, it was, maybe it was something that, I don't know sometimes like

you need to be, get really dark and really just, go past boundaries in

order to understand what you do.

Like this.

I think the boundary went too far, but I understand the need to do things that

seem surprising, maybe that seem gross or unexpected or maybe not nice in order

to see where you are at in terms of what you like, what is pleasurable to you.

Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

I think that there's also a lot to be said for, there's a lot of people that,

in removing that act of deciding what?

What do I even want to try?

But removing that, it's liberating for some people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So definitely I can see where this really shifted the market.

Also, the fact that it was purely written for the female gaze in some ways.

This was not written for men, that's for sure.

and what's astounding about this book in particular is that they

were like, let's sell it to women.

Let's not, but they weren't saying, let's not sell it to women readers.

They were like, let's sell it to women.

It was made only in paperback, and they were like, let's

sell it at grocery stores.

Everyone goes to a grocery store.

At the time I'm sure it was every woman goes

Yes.

That was at the grocery store.

and so it is like astounding to to, to that, that like to

see how the market adjusted.

And I was thinking like the other day about like how

romance novels are very safe.

Safe space.

Like it's a safe space to explore desire and to see it.

I imagine, I'm imagining that like, when you're seeing it in line at

the checkout station in like the 1970s, you've just bought everything

that you need for your family.

This is a safe space.

And to see it there like I, I imagine that someone being like, okay, we see you like

that acknowledgement of we see you and we see what you want and this is safe.

No ma, despite this content, like I, I imagine people felt very good about

that and like finally felt oh, I can be in touch with something that I

felt like needed to be tamped down.

It doesn't have to be anymore.

And there's a beauty in that and a remarkable kind of

revolution in that as well.

Yeah.

Especially when it comes to female pleasure, that up to that

point, not to be talked about.

Not to even be enjoyed, it's like sex was really not for women to

enjoy or have pleasure, like it's their duty and they're supposed to.

Do.

But yeah, I think this, there's some revolution in giving them the permission,

even if it's on paper, even if nobody in their life is telling them these things.

But there is a place where, yeah, actually we can feel those things

and we can explore those things.

And obviously even there is a subset in romance right now

where you do have non-consent and all of these things explored.

And I do think that there is something to be said for exploring those things.

Or even maybe you don't want to explore them in real life, but reading them

within the safe context of the book and analyzing your reaction to it or whatever,

it's, there is still value in that.

And I feel like with the existence of romance it like a and aside from

like any other genre, is that it, the existence of any book that you see

is going to tell you're not alone.

You're not alone in having this desire.

You're not alone in thinking about this.

Like I, and I think that there's a level of like.

Solidarity that like, just by seeing the title, you realize, okay, like

other people think about this too.

There's a desire out there.

I'm not weird, in a bad way or anything.

And I think that I'm curious if romance is the genre that kind of does that

more than most genres, who knows?

But yeah,

Yeah.

'cause how many people are really going to identify with elves in

the middle of a forest looking

exactly.

Yeah.

You're not alone.

Yeah.

You're not the only elves.

You're not alone in believing that dragons are real, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I definitely think that, and I think it's also, it can also be

very healing for people because we make up these things in our mind,

telling us, like telling ourselves how this is wrong, that is wrong.

What you're feeling is this and that, and all of that creates so

many feelings that when we are able to see that other people are feeling

that, other people are exploring that and it gives us that safe space.

It is also healing.

Absolutely.

Because again, I think there's still this kind of misconception, or maybe

not, I don't know, but of people kind of one-to-one romance novels with porn.

Seeing that okay, this is graphic sex.

This is must be white men flock towards porn.

I don't know if people are going to porn because they're like, this is

a safe space and this is healing.

Maybe I don't know everyone in the world, but I think that something that like

like oftentimes like the, I like people think I imagining, people think readers

go to romance for the titillation and the sexuality of it all and the pleasure.

But I think that there's something to be said about.

Maybe it isn't about that.

Maybe it's more about the safety and being seen and being like cozy, dare I say?

Like the, I think that is just as important as what the content is,

it's just that the content is there.

And yeah.

Yeah, the content is the vehicle, how you get there.

But I think that the whole point of the romance, obviously what you're

guaranteed, no matter what kind of romance you're reading, is that happily ever

after and in whatever way it is that is cozy, that is the comforting part.

Even with this book ending with, all the crazy stuff and all the killer

and this and that, but it was cozy in that we get to see a character

that we've seen go through so much, have that happily ever after and

have that happy ending and there's always going to be comfort in that.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I, for me, like I know we talked about this in the first episode, but I'm just,

like I read, I find coziness in story structure, a simple story structure

where I know where the character's at.

It's very heightened.

There's something very appealing to me.

It's very simple.

Not in a bad way, but like in a cozy way and I think that, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

So I think definitely I am glad to have read it.

I don't know if I feel comfortable writing this book at all, because I feel like

it's so difficult, like no matter what I do, I'm gonna rate it with my perception

of today, which I think in a way, it is doing a disservice to the book, because

it could never be, it's almost like saying that I'm gonna rate something

that I loved when I started reading, which I probably rated five stars a lot

of crap, because it was all new to me.

So I, I almost don't feel like it's right for me to do that.

I don't know how you feel

it's like writing a Amazon review on the Bible in a way of

feels like that.

yeah.

Are you gonna do that?

Do who are the people that like, it's I'm

sure there's people.

Yeah.

Now I have to look at this for sure.

There's people,

Yeah.

It just feels so like what?

Yeah.

That's really,

but it's a great comparison 'cause that's how I'm feeling.

Like I can't give this book a rating.

It's an experience to be had and that's it.

Yeah.

It's like giving a Yelp review on your own house.

It's like, why?

This isn't, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So definitely that's how I'm feeling on ratings.

But I enjoyed myself.

I think that the writing was, it did have, its up ups and downs for sure,

but it definitely kept me interesting, interested way more than I was expecting

Same here.

I was expecting, honestly, to be like, this was gonna feel like

reading a book for English class.

Like I wasn't, I was gonna be bored.

And granted, there were parts where I was like, the pacing is slow and maybe

that is a sign of boredom for the reader.

I wasn't I was engaged.

And I think that's like the best thing that any book can do, is keep you engaged.

It's, especially nowadays where I, we all get distracted so easily and

you've really gotta do a good job to maintain someone's intention.

Catherine e would've was, did that with this and so I, I give her props.

All the

for sure, and especially for a book that we are reading so many years

after it was published, and it is still able to do that with having

to compete with all the, bells and whistles that are pulling our attention.

Yeah, definitely that's something that really stood out to me.

But Becky, we didn't talk about the baths.

Oh yeah.

There were still so many baths.

We mentioned it when he took a bath in the river, but the baths continued.

Guys.

The

Oh my God.

It's all about baths.

There was a bath where I thought there was going to be another opportunity

for a sex scene where he sees her taking the bath with the sponge and

whatever in the water, and he just looks at her for a little bit and then

he goes, which I appreciated that scene because that was a scene of connection.

I will accept that.

But then there's a lot of bath just in passing conversation.

It's yeah, he took a bath and then he got dressed and then he went on about the day,

or she went to take a bath because she was stressed out and she needed to relax and

I know there, I've even wrote down more baths.

OMG, like that's what I wrote.

so many baths.

Yeah.

I like

I need somebody to explain that to me.

I think it was like back then, like it was the only thing that was comforting.

It's not like they had a, Brooks Brothers neck massager that they could go to.

The bath was the only thing.

but I thought the baths was like a once in a while thing because it was

such a big production to, put together,

I know.

not in this house

Not in this house though.

They have baths all the time.

all the time.

All the time.

It was a good time.

It was a good time.

Yeah.

I, and there I wanted like penetrative sex in a bath like,

It needed that I'm just gonna say it, with so many baths, it needed

And we needed the payoff.

But that's just me and my own horn ball.

Desires of if don't introdu, don't introduce something that

they're not gonna have sex in.

Come on.

Yeah, I think that was definitely too much for the times.

It was, it's a chekov's law, but Sure.

Fine.

Yeah,

For sure.

Thank you for doing this whole experiment.

I

This was fun.

this was so fun.

Honestly, this has been such a fun two weeks that's made me like,

especially now looking, doing my show versus reading this and it's making

me like, I love the opportunities to appreciate romance in different ways.

Two months ago it was with heated rivalry, and that coming out made me

appreciate romance and now doing this.

Has made me really given me a new appreciation of it.

So it is like nice to just learn new things about yourself as

you read a genre that you love.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think it's also important to read things where.

Sometimes, maybe it's not the normal thing that you're reading, but by reading

something a little bit outside of that, it really opens up your perception.

Whether it's things about yourself or things about what you like or don't like

or what you can appreciate and where with something like this, where it's

come from, how it's changed, like even how historical romance itself, 'cause

obviously this was written as a historical romance, even though it feels historical

already, like for us, talking now.

So it's like a historical of a historical, but it historical romance

in general has evolved so much

Yeah,

from what you expect today.

Yeah, I think that and I could be completely wrong about this, but I think

that like for the longest time when you would think about historical romance,

and it felt like there were so many rules as to what you can do with historical

romance, like what you can put in, and I don't know if it was maybe bridger's or

I don't know what it was, or new authors coming out, but just seeing them realize,

like be like, we can break the, it doesn't have to be so stringent, these rules

of what can be in a historical romance.

'cause let's not forget the romance part.

And so it has been nice to see, I don't know, like like different, just having fun

with it more versus we don't need to be reminded that history was like terrible.

You know what I mean?

Like at the cost of a, of the romance of the story,

yeah, for sure.

Also, I think historical romance did go through a period where it

was all ballrooms in England, and it was refreshing to go back in time to

the original, and that's not what it was, so it's almost like we had the,

I'm gonna call it the fun stories, even though, there's horrible things

happening here, but in a way, there was a lot more freedom that the author

and I imagine other authors of the time were exploring with their stories.

And then somehow we got to the cookie cutter, London ballrooms

and all the things, and now we're coming back out of that.

So it almost feels like it was cyclical.

Yeah, totally.

I think this was before a time I, where this book came out when I, it

felt like it was a great experiment, now, you, everyone has, most people

have become aware of how popular the romance genre is and they're making

products that are very much data driven.

People love the historical romances, that's regency.

So yeah, publishers are gonna be like, we're gonna look for Regency now.

That people are like, we are like with certain tropes, with certain

characters, but this was just before all that where they're like, let's see.

And, so that, that's what's, that's also what feels very refreshing by reading

it because it feels wholly original.

Like this is something that someone just came up with that they wrote

because they were desiring it.

It had nothing to do with finding an agent.

They weren't doing it to get, like with query letters.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I would love to, whatever.

Like there wasn't just today where it just, you're just inundated with all

these like people telling you of what's gonna sell, what's not gonna sell?

How do you do it?

How do you do this?

This was just written out of just the love of writing and I, and that's pretty cool.

Yeah.

And you can actually tell that's how it was written.

And if anything if I could tell publishers anything today is to stop doing that.

Take more risks, like this was a risk, and look what happened.

Exactly.

because those are the stories that are going to connect with readers

50 years from now, as you can see.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I am looking for different, writing jobs, with writing an interactive

romance or working for, audio kind of serialized things that they just

wanna churn out content after content.

And they're all looking for these same things and it's just not that

the, not that what they're requiring isn't fun but it is so stringent

that we're like diminishing, there could be some great ideas brewing

that aren't, I don't know, getting made in the same way that this was.

And yeah.

not getting the attention right, because I feel like, especially with

publishers, they see something's working, so now they want to replicate that.

And obviously is a risk when you're going to publish something that no,

there is no proven path forward.

So it's not a guaranteed investment and, but if you don't make that

guaranteed investment, you're not gonna make that huge something that's

gonna be super, super popular has to be a unique story like this,

absolutely.

I think, and right now we're seeing, at least on the mobile

apps and stuff I'm seeing a lot of

yeah.

is the big thing, and it's it wasn't about the hockey, you know what I mean?

But maybe it was, I don't know.

Like it, it just, what are it?

It was about the characters.

It was about like these, and.

The yearning of it all.

It, but it's just, again, like you have AI doing algorithms of what's selling.

Okay.

It's hockey.

Peop that must mean people are into hockey and it's then someone's gonna make a

hockey thing and it's not gonna be good.

And then everyone's gonna think everyone hates hockey.

And it's we

Let's not publish any more hockey

exactly.

Yeah.

And it's just oh, you need to list, let artists be artists, and just let

them use their brain to just write about what it means to be human.

And that's the key.

But, I'm just sitting here as an unpublished author, just sitting

back and just, criticizing everything around me and not doing anything

about it in terms of my own career.

So there you go.

I think it, it is so difficult in today's world and how everything is

set up because you can have the best original idea, but it is difficult

to get it in front of enough eyeballs and enough people, whether, going the

traditional route and an agent and query letters and all the things, or going

the indie route and just putting it out there and trying to do it yourself.

I think regardless, it's difficult no matter which way, but I do think that

at least from my perspective or the corners of the internet that I happen to

come across, I think people are really looking for that right now because there

is so much of the same, that everything just feels the same, which it is.

So they're tired of that.

And actually it's one of the reasons why I have seen so many people

start to read all their books.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Especially how publishers are not publishing right now or canceling a lot of

contracts for historical romances today.

And I am seeing so many young tiktokers getting into historical romance and going

to the used book sales and picking up the old Lisa Kleypas and the old, Christina

Dodd and like all these old historicals because they want something different.

Yeah it's very fascinating to me that it's it's not necessarily

about the sub genre here.

Like I, I think, yeah, there's like certain popular sub genres,

but it's something deeper that I am not smart enough to know.

I'm is it just the writer?

Is it the characters?

Is how fleshed out the characters are in any sub genre.

You know what I mean?

It's not necessarily about like where they are.

I

I think the only difference with historical romance, at least.

Not necessarily like currently being written historical references, but

like two thousands, 2010s right around the roundabout there, maybe 1990s.

I feel like those were really like deeper in character development and struggles

just because the times that the characters find themselves in provides so much

struggle to get, overcome whatever issues.

Maybe it's class differences, maybe it's actual, pirates and things.

And I feel like that does add a certain level of intensity to the

relationship just in and of itself.

And the authors that were writing in those genres really worked on the yearning.

And because the customs of the time.

It was all about that, that one look and that one, maybe a brush of the hand.

And I think that it lends itself to deliver some of that yearning

that you are not gonna find necessarily in a contemporary.

It's why people, it's like what you're saying about the hand brush and whatever.

I'm like that's Amish romance today.

It's interesting oh God, I was gonna say something.

Like I, I feel like with everything is so transparent these days in terms of

like our parasocial relationships with authors and it's creepy and it's weird.

And actually it is very creepy and weird, but I. I think that readers

want to read something from their author, quote unquote friends that

they know this author enjoyed writing.

No reader wants to read something that like, felt like a task for the

author, and they're just doing that.

Here you go, you happy?

No one wants that.

No one wants to receive anything with that attitude.

So yeah.

Yeah.

So hopefully they get their ish together, is

Yeah.

Yeah.

And not to,

give us more of this like unique stories, something wild and

out there and see how it does.

Yeah.

And this isn't to like diminish authors, like if you get an assigned

thing and you enjoy writing, I'm not whatever, but I'm just saying you

can I think as human beings, we can tell when the author is having such a

good time writing something and it's makes that book even more special.

Yeah.

Agreed.

Definitely.

I do think that Kathleen E Woodiwiss enjoyed writing that

I think she, I like she had a blast and that at the end of

the day makes you like you.

We just read a late someone's labor of love, which is way better

than anything manufactured by ai.

You know what I mean?

And

For sure.

and that is the end of our discussion for Chapters nine and 10 of The Flame

and the Flower by Kathleen e Woodiwiss.

I hope you've enjoyed the ride so far.

But we are not done with the ripped in ravished Book Club

because coming up next, we're gonna be talking to some authors who love

the book when it originally was released and coming on to speak on

their experience with reading the book, loving the book originally,

and how that translates to today.

So stay tuned for that coming up soon.

And in the meantime, don't forget to let us know what you thought of

the book by replying to our email.

So be sure that you are subscribed to the Ripped and Ravished newsletter.

I will leave all of those links down below.

also remember to go and follow Becky at the Too Stupid to Live podcast where

she reviews romance novels $5 and under.

I will leave also all her links in the show notes down below.

But for today, that is all I have for you guys, and I will see you in the next one.

Bye.