In this episode of Reading Under the Covers, a romance novel podcast, Francesca is joined by Becky from the Too Stupid To Live podcast for part one of the Ripped & Ravished Book Club discussion of A Knight in Shining Armor by Jude Deveraux, chapters 1 through 18. It's a reread for Francesca and a first read for Becky, so you get both seats at the table: the comfort of a book that imprinted years ago, and the shock of meeting Nicholas, ice cream, zippers, and a 1980s dressing room for the very first time.

They get into why this 1989 title plays lighter than the bodice rippers the club usually reads, Nicholas as an alpha who actually listens and learns, whether a naive heroine is quietly making a comeback, and the case for time travel romance as one of the most underserved corners of the genre. Then the chapter 18 cut lands, he's gone the moment she asks him to stay, and everyone around her thinks she dreamed the whole thing. Part two finishes the book.

Timestamps

00:00 Heartbreak Cold Open

00:15 Podcast Intro and Book Club Setup

00:47 Why This Book Matters

02:54 First Impressions and 80s Shift

04:07 Nicholas as Learning Alpha

06:40 Audiobook Vibes and Rake Trope

08:04 Should Authors Revise Books

11:54 Fish Out of Water Comedy

16:49 Midpoint Twist and Gaslit Feeling

18:09 Dougless as 80s Heroine

22:15 Likability and Problematic Moments

27:11 Growth and Stakes Before Part Two

33:17 Simple Yet Deep

34:05 Slow Burn Moments

35:26 Mystery and Time Travel

36:01 Fated Mates Connection

37:21 Emotional Stakes Rising

39:40 Lighter Than Bodice Rippers

40:49 Why Time Travel Endures

42:22 Need More Time Travel

45:25 BookTok and Market Trends

51:09 Dougless and Self Worth

56:50 Happy Ending Reassurance

59:46 Episode Wrap and Callouts

Links

• A Knight in Shining Armor on the blog: https://www.underthecoversbookblog.com/a-knight-in-shining-armor-by-jude-deveraux/
• The Ripped & Ravished Book Club: https://www.underthecoversbookblog.com/bodice-ripper-book-club/
• Join the Ripped & Ravished email list: https://underthecovers.myflodesk.com/ripped-ravished
• Becky's podcast, Too Stupid To Live: https://tstlpodcast.substack.com

Hungry for more time travel romance? Start here:

• Time Travel Romance Books: https://www.underthecoversbookblog.com/time-travel-romance-books/
• Time Travel Mystery Books: https://www.underthecoversbookblog.com/time-travel-mystery-books/
• Time Loop Romance: https://www.underthecoversbookblog.com/time-loop-romance/
• YA Time Loop Romance Books: https://www.underthecoversbookblog.com/ya-time-loop-romance-books/

Part two, finishing the book, coming soon.

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BECKY.: it's a total nightmare as any type of normal human being where you

lost the person you love, not only that, but everyone thinks you're crazy.

Welcome to Reading Under the Covers, a romance novel podcast

where we chat, fangirl, and maybe even swoon over our latest reads.

I'm Francesca from Under the Covers Book Blog, and today we are doing

our first discussion episode of the Ripped and Ravished Book Club

for the period of May and June.

And this time we're gonna be discussing A Knight in Shining

Armor by Jude Deveraux So this is part one of a two-part discussion.

In this episode, we're discussing chapters one through 18, and in

the next episode, we pick up on chapter 19 and finish the book.

I hope that you guys are following along.

This is an iconic book, in my opinion, in the romance genre.

And I wanted to make sure we included it this year, even though it's not quite

as bodice rippery as the other ones we've discussed so far in the book club

it is published a little bit later.

It's a 1989 publishing year.

And I actually thought about picking a previous book in this series, but this

book is so iconic, I didn't want to not include it and not talk about it.

Now, something that is a little bit different in this episode is

that I've already read this book.

I read it probably 10 years ago, and Becky, who is my co-host here for

the Ripped and Ravished Book Club from the Too Stupid To Live podcast,

she hasn't read it yet, so this is a first time reading it for her.

So you're gonna get both points of view as we talk about this

And I can't wait to hear from you guys as well.

What are your thoughts?

What did you think about it?

Was it the first time reading it, or are you rereading it as well?

And how do you feel about it today?

So as always with the Ripped and Ravished Book Club, I hope that you reply to the

emails, you come and comment on the blog, and just join in on the conversation and

let us know how you feel about the story.

I will leave all the links for that in the description box down below.

If you're not subscribed to the email newsletter for the Ripped and Ravished

Book Club, I will leave that down below as well so you can subscribe and get

those emails so you can come and interact with us there as well but with no more

delays, let's get into our discussion of A Knight in Shining Armor by Jude

Deveraux, chapters 1 through chapter 18

FRANCESCA : I am so excited because I feel like this is gonna

be a different conversation.

What do you think?

BECKY.: This was, it's gonna be a different conversation

'cause it's a different book.

It's a different book, yeah

FRANCESCA : I mean, kind of intentionally, , it's different.

Also, I should say, when I was originally thinking about books there, 'cause this

is like, I think book 13 or something like that in a series, even though

it's like totally fine as a standalone.

So I had thought about a different book in the series earlier, and

I was reading about it and I was like, well, maybe it's time for

like something a little bit lighter.

BECKY.: Yes.

Yeah, yeah,

FRANCESCA : We, we need a little break from the, uh, the same

conversations, you know what I mean?

BECKY.: 100%.

Like, I feel like this is kind of like, okay, this is like we are in a, it's

like a fish-out-of-water rom-com, or it is a fish-out-of-water rom-com,

which felt very '80s, um, humor-wise.

Um, and but also kind of, you kind of still see the,

the tropes being formulated.

I mean, we've only read one through 18, but you're still seeing kind of like a

lot of the tropes that we know and love today, kind of you're seeing like the…

I mean, I know there were other books, but you're kind

of seeing the birth of them, if

FRANCESCA : Yeah.

Right?

Right?

Yeah, and I mean, I, I haven't, like, researched enough of, like, 1980s

romance, but I feel like we definitely see the, the switch, you know, from

how the other ones are, were very much on the forced seduction and the

really, um, aggressive alpha in a way.

But here, even though, I mean, he's still an alpha hero, but you're already starting

to see that change, and I don't know if, like, it was around this time or if it

was earlier in the '80s, but when we read Tender Is, Is the Storm, which was also

an '80s romance, it still wasn't there.

So I think that was '85.

So I'm thinking that this is more of, like, that pivotal change

BECKY.: is something there.

Like, whether or not he's, like, changing or are we as readers, like, kind of

giving him a pass because he is from 1534 and, we're like, "Okay, he's just a

sign-" But, um, it, like, 'cause that's what I originally thought, you know?

But then, like, as we're getting to know him and seeing him and almost,

like, kind of lear- Like, it's the, it's the listening, it's the learning,

and it's the bringing the nuance.

Like, I think something that I really appreciated was, was, is whenever he

talks about his mom, and, and how, like, you know, he, seeing her as, like, not

that, like, this is the bare minimum.

He saw his mom as a multifaceted individual.

Like, great job, dude.

But it wa- it is, like, really refreshing to see, you know, especially, like, with

some of the arguments that we kind of see towards historical fiction and historical

romance of, like, oh, this person wouldn't have, like, these people wouldn't have

been happy, or this person wouldn't have been this or that because of the times.

And it's like, well, no, everyone, we're fully realized human beings,

and I was really refreshing

FRANCESCA : Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, there were a couple of parts that I thought exactly that, like when,

uh, he was faced with how women were, or society at large in the '80s, were

seeing people of his time, and the women and the situations they were in.

And he's reflecting back of obviously his very privileged, um, status because

his mother would not have been…

And, and, and the heroine in this book points that out to him, "Well, I mean,

your mother would not have been the, the norm." But he was like, "Yeah, well,

yeah, my, my mother's husband would not have been able to tell her X, Y, and

Z," like, yeah, how that would've gone.

But, and he starts to, like you said, learn, 'cause then he's

receiving that information.

It's like, "Oh yeah, maybe you're right. Like, that was not the

norm." So I really appreciated that.

I'm like, okay, well that's refreshing to start to see that,

BECKY.: Right.

Yeah, 'cause you see like both of them learning.

And I think like for us as we're trying to like understand our world now and looking

to the past, it's really easy to kind of generalize what everyone's thoughts were

based on what kind of the law and the government was at the time, without kind

of like taking into account like what it's like for everyday people and the nuance of

everyday people, which is difficult to do.

You can't like, you know, l- ask every individual in the past like

how they feel about something.

But it just like kind of like reminds you, it's like, yeah, these were human beings.

These are people, and they all have their own stories, you know?

FRANCESCA : Yeah.

And also speaking of some of the 1500s of what he was like, uh, I feel like it's

also a bit of like the classic rake trope because, like, th- this was textbook.

You know what I mean?

BECKY.: yeah.

And it was actually like almost- I- I've been listening to the audiobook off of

Libby, um, 'cause I'm supporting my local library 'cause I'm such a good person.

Um, Um, and so like the, the narrator that I'm listening to is having

so- it's such an enjoyable listen.

He is having so… It- this is like why I love romance audiobooks, 'cause

this narrator is just having the time of his life narrating this.

And so when like, he's like giving the tour and, um, he's kind of, um… I

don't know when this was recorded, but like when he's like telling the tour

group that like Nicholas, he was, as they put it back then, a notorious rake,

and like, just like, you almost like hear the audio narrator kind of being

like, "Do you like this romance readers?

We've got the tropes." You know, it was very fun.

It was really enjoyable.

FRANCESCA : Love that.

Love it.

It's been like when I first read this book, I listened to the audiobook

and I remember enjoying it so much.

Um, and so this time I'm like, I'm gonna actually, I'm gonna read.

I could not find like an original copy.

This is from like the 2000s.

Hopefully nothing was changed.

I don't know.

I doubt it, but

BECKY.: it's interesting 'cause like, with this project that we're doing

of like, how much can be changed?

You know what I-- Like, I understand, like, 'cause like now for example,

this isn't a-- the best one-to-one, but like with something like Ruby

Dixon, you know how like she 10 years ago put out Ice Planet Barbarians,

five years ago changed the one.

And it's a big change, I would say, to be more sensitive towards readers

and it's like, okay, what is-- how much can you change from like a book

that you wrote in the 1970s if you're being, if you're re-releasing it?

I guess it's the author's prerogative, but

FRANCESCA : Yeah.

Yeah I actually, I prefer to keep the things the way they are, and then

obviously you come in as a reader and you have a brain and you have discernment

and you can, you know, understand.

Because it's also kind of like a historical record, you know

BECKY.: Yeah.

FRANCESCA : If we just go back in and modify everything, like it's funny, I was,

I scrolled past this post on Instagram the other day, and it was somebody

complaining about a book that was, I think, written in the two- mid-2000s, and

they were reading it now as an e-book.

And it's something that they've owned on their Kindle since back then,

and they picked it up to, reread it, and it said something about TikTok

and, the music, like the artists and stuff are, like, new artists.

So even to, do something like that, I feel like what's the point?

'Cause, the whole point is to see what was popular in that time.

You know what I mean?

Like, there was no TikTok and these artists didn't exist, so why can't we, why

can't we just know what are the popular TV shows that they were watching at the

time and the music they were listening to?

And I feel like you do miss something by editing that out.

BECKY.: Totally, 'cause like, you know, to get all like frou-frou, when

an author is publishing a book, no matter where or when it takes place,

no matter what the premise is, it is kind of a product of the times we live

in, even if it is a historical romance.

Like, there is always gonna be something that kind of reflects

kind of our modern experience.

And so yeah, I think kind of constantly going back and editing,

again, it's the author's prerogative.

You know, maybe are you kind of like, um, tarn- not tarnishing, um, but just like

kind of it's dulling the lust, the, the, the shine of the original a little bit.

And then there's also the kind of more scarier part of it, of like,

okay, well are you censoring yourself?

are you going too far?

Like, are you being pressured by your publisher, let's say, to fix this because

of this, and you want appeal to that?

Like, then that gets like a little, concerning, so

FRANCESCA : Yeah, and I feel like that's a, something that we've even heard about

or that have, has been going on more, like in the past probably 10 years.

I never heard about a book getting revised 20 years ago.

You know what I mean?

So it's a more recent development, which I find fascinating.

BECKY.: Yeah, it is, it is like kind of a scary, it is a scary thing just

because of where we are now at least in the United States, maybe the whole world.

Mm. Um, I, you know, like it's like, okay, what are you, what are we exemplifying?

'Cause like you don't realize like, oh my God, just a small

edit to make so-and-so happy.

Like the, I didn't reali- like, I guess maybe 'cause like I'm watching the

final season of Hacks right now, and so I'm kind like been on my mind of like,

okay, well like how far does this go?

And like when we like censor something like, oh, is it, are we setting a larger

precedent for, you know, something else?

I don't know.

FRANCESCA : yeah.

I think it does open the door for that, for sure.

For sure.

And plus, you don't get the enjoyment, like you just said, like you started

reading this, and it feels like a product of the '80s, and there is joy in that.

Like, yes, I do-- When I'm in the mood to read something like that, I wanna

be able to pick that up, and I know that that's the vibe I'm gonna get,

which I definitely think that this

BECKY.: 100%.

'Cause like, I feel like, like honestly, like the humor-wise, I

think that like this is such a fun rom-com with- that is so reminiscent

of like an '80s silly comedy.

It honestly like sort of reminded me of a John Hughes movie in a way, of just

like really, really having fun with this fish out of water, what would a, um,

knight from fif- 1534 or whatever, how would he react to ice cream, and how

would he react to the smallest things like a calculator and stuff like that?

And just like I l- I love that kind of stuff.

You know, coming from an improv background, coming from a comedy

background, just thinking about what is in his environment, being

in his character, seeing what he is seeing with his own eyes, and just

pushing it to a 10 with the humor.

I am like, that, that is what makes telling this story in novel form so

much more fun than if we were watching this as a m- which it would make for

a great movie that I would love, but

it just wouldn't have as much fun with like him trying to

like understand a zipper,

you know what I Like…

FRANCESCA : Yes.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

And actually, it, that, that exactly that part, like him learning all of those

things, it's one of the things that I remember the most about reading it 10

years ago, and I'm like, oh my God,

like him in the dressing room was like imprinted here.

He's like, "What is that?" and then after when he goes to put on the pants

by himself and he's like, "Oh, shit."

Like,

Yeah, like that's

gotta be careful.

BECKY.: Yeah, that's a dangerous thing.

And then also something that I've realized, 'cause I have seen this in

other kind of fish-out-of-water-style, like, stories is, is someone from the

past or someone from a different dimension trying ice cream for the first Like,

there's nothing like a, a fish out of water try- that first taste of ice cream

when they realize how amazing it is.

And like I, I- ice cream is probably one of my favorite foods, so almost like I

feel like that's become such a micro trope as well of just the, just ice cream in

particular, or just like something that, that we all-- like, is such an indulgence,

you know, and trying it for the first time

FRANCESCA : Or when he was like, " there's a fountain inside the house.

The water is coming out right there."

Baths.

There were baths.

BECKY.: There were baths and, and also like him not understand.

Yeah, like, it's like it's warm.

FRANCESCA : But the baths here were, were so, like it was intentional because

it was the discovery of the bath and then, you know, some sexy times as well.

It's like I thought about that and I thought that that would be really good.

BECKY.: Yeah, and I mean, he figured out how to use the shower

way quicker than I usually do when I go to hotel room for first time.

I'm like, "How does this thing turn on?" And he got it, so

FRANCESCA : He, listen, I feel like there is something I can say for his character

for, especially for like a knight in the 1500s, he was very adaptable.

He adapted so quickly to everything, picked up on things fast, and

also there was a lot of like curiosity, which I really enjoy.

Like you get that feeling of curiosity from him whenever he's discovering

these things, and I feel like that part was also what made the whole

experience of how would he react.

But he's not, you know, like, 'cause he could have reacted to like being

scared of what is this thing talking like in this screen or whatever.

But it was about curiosity more so than like feeling threatened

by the technology, which I loved

BECKY.: I- it is so delightful, and I c- n- I know that he's supposed to be this,

like, romantic figure, um, but it's hard for me not to compare him to watching

children grow up com- be- from babies.

Like, I, it…

One of my, like, fondest memories is when my niece discovered what a ser-

a serving spoon was, and was just amazed by how big this serving spoon

was, and it was like her l- looking…

It was like her seeing the Grand Canyon for the first time, just like,

"Oh, my God, this is the biggest spoon." So it, he, he has that

moment when he sees something, like, as benign to me as a calculator.

I, it, that, which now these days is even just, like, old-school technology.

We, that, that is even, you know, archaic, and him just being,

"What is this contraption?"

Like, I mean, like, it's like those moments that, like, it's the reason

why we, like, love watching kids grow up, but it's also the reason why

we love the humor of, of this type of trope, of this type of fish out

of water time travel kind of comedy

FRANCESCA : Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which is adorable, and I think it's gonna be a nice juxtaposition when we do get

into the second part of this book and, you know, things are a little bit, uh, turned.

T- tables are turned, you know?

But,

BECKY.: Table- not on the table, they're turned

FRANCESCA : no, not on that table.

BECKY.: And not on that table.

Well, you know what's interesting, I haven't read this book before, and

so where we cut off is at the point where w- I feel gaslit, like almost

like… And I know, know it, and that

FRANCESCA : That was an

BECKY.: dream.

FRANCESCA : that was an intentional cut.

BECKY.: Yes, it really was.

But like, it's like, oh, like structurally it's like, okay,

what a great midpoint of book.

FRANCESCA : 'Cause I'm like, it's not quite, we're past the midpoint, but

I'm like, well, we gotta stop it there.

We can't stop it at the midpoint.

BECKY.: Right.

Yeah.

Which it, it's, what-- It's so compelling because you're just like, "Oh my God,

did everything happen?" Um, and so it was really hard for me to, like, not

want to keep listening last night.

I I sto- you know, and so I had, I forced myself to stop listening.

FRANCESCA : it down, put it down, 'cause then it's gonna blend together.

Yeah.

BECKY.: Totally, to- 'cause yeah, I didn't wanna spoil anything for who

are, be reading it for the first time.

Um, but I do think it's important to say, as fun as this book was and, and

as, you know, I, um, more palatable as I would say the storytelling is, y- there's

still moments that kind you cringe.

You know what I mean?

Just in terms of, like, particularly her character, particularly part

where she drugs someone, you know, like how it that felt very '80s, but

it also is a little cringe-worthy.

And, um, so it's, like, kind of, you kind of have those moments there

while you're reading or listening

FRANCESCA : Yeah, and something else that I was thinking about her character

because she did feel like an '80s heroine, because I feel like at the time it

was all about that damsel in distress.

You know, she's very naive.

She needs rescuing.

Obviously, it's a knight in shining armor coming to rescue her.

So that felt very '80s, for sure.

But also I kind of feel like, and this could just be me and what I'm seeing, I

kind of feel like that kind of heroine is making a comeback, where we used

to have really strong heroines for a while, and now I am seeing more of

that naive heroine peeking through.

So, uh, it's interesting seeing that cycle where we, we do, we do see

some of that, the traits of Dougless.

I think that's how you say her name.

I'm not

BECKY.: I've been-- He says Dougless on the thing.

This-- And believe I was confused in chapter one.

I was like, "Dougless?" Okay, but then

FRANCESCA : 'Cause I'm like, is this supposed to be said differently?

I'm just going with it.

Uh, but yeah, she definitely felt very naive.

Also, um, her self-esteem is on the floor, which I just… Oh my

God, I struggle with that so much.

And like, hearing and seeing her going through the emotions and how she was

belittling herself, and especially as it relates to her previous relationship

and how, um, her relationship with her family and all of that.

It, like that was so hard to, you know, to see

BECKY.: almost, as a person listening to this in 2026, it almost felt comical

because it's like all of her ex- all of her exes, they're not just, like,

assholes who moved on with their lives.

They're in jail, they're thi- Like, it's just like, it's so heightened.

And, yeah, just like the way her, herself…

Like, some of the things that she says aloud felt like almost a little like

an SNL parody of, like, "I can't go out with, like, out- my under eye concealer,"

or something like that, you know?

Which was, like, y- funny, but like… And funny to me on a level that maybe

when it was written at the time was just like, "Isn't this life, ladies?"

And I'm reading it thinking, "Oh wow, this is, like, a really

good parody of, like, the single woman who can't catch a man," you

FRANCESCA : Yeah, for sure.

Um, and also her, well, I- I'll call him her ex, but you know, Robert, comically,

BECKY.: Mm-hmm.

FRANCESCA : cartoonishly villain, like, horrible person

BECKY.: Yes,

FRANCESCA : the extreme.

BECKY.: And his daughter.

Like, I mean, I, it's, This is another reason why it felt very '80s is that,

like, I think in, like, at, in the movies at the time, all of the side characters

except for, to, like, for us to really feel for the protagonists, they were just,

like, like, portrayed via their archetype.

They were so, like, like, kind of exaggerated in a way.

His daughter was, like, j-just the, I don't know, like, this young m-m,

like, wife of Macbeth or something.

what I mean?

Like, just, like, kind of like she reminds you of, like, the

Heathers from that movie, you know?

Like, there's nothing about her that's like, you don't see any,

like, kind of nuanced soft side to any side character at all.

There's no-- Yeah.

Yeah

FRANCESCA : I mean, from the moment that, like, Robert is like, "Okay, so

tally up what's the expenses, and oh, by the way, so now you gotta pay for half.

And then oh, by the way, my daughter's coming, but no,

you still have to pay for half

BECKY.: Right.

Yeah.

And it

FRANCESCA : you get the privilege of spending time with her."

BECKY.: Exactly, yeah.

Just the lack of self-awareness of the, of all of the side characters

kinds of, kind of makes it seem- It, it adds to the humor 100%, adds to

the, to the enjoyability of the book.

But it is just, like very silly

FRANCESCA : Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So and I think in, in some ways it adds to the lightness of this first half,

you know, 'cause like it's very rom-comy in a way before we get more serious.

Um, so I do, I do enjoy that.

Um, but yeah, definitely it felt very heightened, And also, and I don't

know, this could just be me, and I don't remember when I first read

it how I felt about Dougless, and obviously we just said that she has

her confidence issues and stuff, but sometimes she came across as not likable

BECKY.: Uh, you know, I, I completely agree.

I- there were parts where that kind of, w- she had thoughts about the, um,

daughter's weight, you know, like that she would kind of insult her in her head

based on her weight, and that kind of was like, I don't… This is not something

that I would like in a real person.

That

FRANCESCA : Mm-hmm.

BECKY.: is not something I would like in a fictional person.

And so I understand, like, it's, uh, like, it's something that, like, I, as

someone who has been called unlikable, like, I take to heart very much.

Um, and it's like, okay, b- but there were, but I will say there were times

where she did think of something that, like, legit was hurtful, I think, to,

like, people based on how they look, and, like, I'm like, "Okay, I think

I'm allowed to not like her," 'cause lot, not like her in that moment

FRANCESCA : In that moment,

BECKY.: there are other times, I think that's, like, the thing is, like,

with characters, like, you say make them likable, make them unlikable,

but it's like, it's not about likability, it's about relatability.

And, like, you're not supposed to l- you don't, we don't like our

loved ones 100% of time, you know?

Like, there are times when we're annoyed with them, and disappointed, and all that

stuff, and it's the same with characters.

Um, so there were times when I was impressed with her was when,

you know, she, like, do- she is, like, really enthusiastic.

She is so freaking smart, and knows her history, and all this

stuff, and she's really intuitive, and I like her then, for sure.

I'm, like, on her side

FRANCESCA : Yeah.

Yeah.

She was also really resourceful in like, "Okay, so we gotta get this done. We

gotta figure this out. Here's what I know, and here's where we can get more

information, and here's where I need to go to get that information," and

like going through the books and stuff.

Uh, but that like going back to the then not liking, um, then she would think

of, oh, well, he can't read, so I'm gonna say something about like, "Well,

I guess I'll teach you how to read."

What do you mean he can't read?

You know that he was writing a letter to his mother when he came

through, so why would you even think that just because he can't read

the text you have in front of you?

Like-

BECKY.: It was a little confusing 'cause like, like, I understand there's like

Old English where there's just like words that are spelled a different

way like, "What is that?" And yeah, but if he's understanding Shakespeare,

we should understand… Then he would understand us because we all still

study Shakespeare, you know what I mean?

So there is like a, there is a way, there is a connection there

FRANCESCA : Yeah, I mean, I had my moments with her.

Um, probably I found him a little bit more likable than her because of that,

but then he would do his, like, typical, like, so stereotypical rake stuff,

which, you know, okay, especially with Arabella and, like, that whole situation.

I was like, "Well, maybe you're taking it a little too far,

but, but I'll give you a pass.

Okay, I'll give you a

BECKY.: Yeah, we are giving him a because he is so, like, he's the naive

one, and he's from the past, and like what we, it's just what we do, and yeah

FRANCESCA : Yeah, he's like, "This is what I've always done, and I need

to get this done 'cause I gotta get back." And then, like, the whole

thing with his wife and how he brought that up, like, out of nowhere.

Like, "Oh yeah, by the way, I have a wife. And yeah, it's no big deal,

'cause like, we can be together." And like, how dismissive he was, which

obviously I understand going back to the 1500s, that's how life was for them.

Um, so, but he did pick up quickly on that context, like once it was

clearly explained to him that, no, uh, okay, no, you have a wife, so

BECKY.: Yeah.

FRANCESCA : none of that's gonna be

BECKY.: for love.

yeah, love is a thing in this world.

I'm like, "What?" Yeah

FRANCESCA : It's like, kind of like that dumb man

BECKY.: Yeah, totally.

Well, 'cause like, I mean, back then, like, it is insane.

Like, I feel-- I, I think there's some truth to that because, like, I feel like

looking at the history of marriage, they were more business agreements and, um,

like alliances between countries before it was two people who were in love

with each other who wanna be together.

Like that, I-- so for us looking at the past, we're like, "That's so crazy

they're marrying and, and they're not in love." And, and but for him

looking at it, he's like, "They're marrying, but she has no dowry?

I don't understand." You know, like

FRANCESCA : They're in love, who cares?

BECKY.: yeah.

FRANCESCA : What is this thing about feelings?

Feelings have nothing to do with a marriage.

BECKY.: is a business arrangement.

Yeah

FRANCESCA : Yeah, yeah.

So that was, I mean, I'll give him a pass for that.

Definitely there's a lot to, I think, that I gave him a pass for in this one also

because like, yeah, his character is naive and he's entertaining, but also he does

show like he's learning along the way.

So the character growth, I do think that is coming along with him, but also

is coming along with her, you know?

Because where, from where she starts out being like completely no confidence, this

and that, to like even to refer back to the scene of the drugging, but like to

her drugging someone to get information.

Like the fact that she even had the guts to do that or had the guts to ask her

sister to mail a fancy dress and that she would put herself out there, um, in

that way, like I wouldn't have seen her do that at the beginning of the book

BECKY.: Totally.

Yeah, she would've just done whatever, like, Robert asked.

FRANCESCA : make, herself look small

BECKY.: Exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

But this, she's like fully asserting herself, and asserting herself

with her feelings, you know?

Like, I know that's like, again, is that sh- uh, the, is that a damsel in distress?

Who knows.

But I f- I found her assertive when she was like, when she's like,

being honest with someone that you love, um, like I, I don't know.

I was like, I find that brave.

So

FRANCESCA : yeah

For sure she gets to that point, and also even to tell him, "I don't

want you to go." You know, for her to even have the guts to say that,

like there was so much character growth for her to get to that point.

'Cause you understand what you're asking because there's so many stakes.

Like, he has to go back because of all, all these things.

So, like even understanding all of that, she was still able to say,

"I want you to stay here with me."

BECKY.: Totally.

Uh, totally because like, again, she's- it's kind of what she wants kind

of erases the whole plot, you know?

And so it is a such a fun, it's a fun conflict, and to see her be,

you know, self-aware with- of that conflict, you know, admirable.

Yeah

FRANCESCA : Yeah, yeah.

And then, um, so also something that I wanted to ask you, and this

is obviously right at the end of the chapters 18, is the fact that

he finally does go back right after he decides that he's going to stay.

It, tragic, definitely tragic, but also in a way, to me, that's kind of like

why he was brought forth, is to find that connection and that love because

ultimately that's what she was asking for in a knight in shining armor.

Not somebody that would come and pay her bills and, give her a

roof and some ways to get around.

It was for that connection.

That, that's what she was looking for.

So that's what they had to achieve, and the moment they

achieved that, now he's gone

BECKY.: Yeah.

And it also is just like, you know, kind of speaks a lot to, like, the craft of

romance, of, like, how to, you know, get the reader invested and then really

just take a moment and what it means to make a reader feel a certain emotion,

especially in that point, you know, just, like, the worst possible time for the

worst possible thing to happen, and it just, like, it's kind of a good reminder

in terms of, like, craft, you know what I

FRANCESCA : Yeah.

Yeah, Yeah, especially 'cause when we talk about pace, I feel like this

book does such a good job with the pace in the sense that there's all

this novelty and discovery, and, like, the relationship is deepening.

Like, there, there was no Ohio moments, at least for me, in this

one, where it's like there's a lull.

And now just where you would think that the, the, the lull is coming, it's

like whack, get whacked over the head.

And you're like, no, now everything is different.

And then right after that, it's like, well, nobody ever saw him.

Like, what are you talking about?

You are just crazy.

BECKY.: Yeah, now it's like this like, um, psychological thriller of like, oh my God.

But y- I think like to that point, like there is a lot of like

different kind of tropes in here.

Like, you do have like the mystery element.

You do have, honestly, I will say there's a historical m- h- element.

I mean, we have-- I don't know what happens in the rest of the book, but

there is like, there's something like when you, when he, when they like ha-

you know, talk about his memories, you know, and, um, that it feels

very much like a his- historical, like Elizabethan fiction romance.

You have your scavenger hunt, and then you have your fish out of water,

and then you have the love, you know?

So it is a lot, there is a lot to like… There's a lot going on that, forces it to

not be boring, you know what I So yeah.

FRANCESCA : Yeah.

And I think from a romance book structure, I think also there's a lot

here that you see reflected also in modern romances, you know, whether it's

the actual, like, arc, which I, I think some people have gone away from more

of this kind of arc, but I like where you're getting that twist in the middle.

Like, I know people love to have that twist at the end where it's like, "Oh

my God, no way." But, like, when you get it in the middle, and then now you have

to, like, re-figure out the whole thing, it's so exciting, 'cause it's almost like

you're getting a whole different book

BECKY.: Totally.

There's a level, there's like a, a, a, it's dense, you know?

I, I think, not that to say that other romances aren't dense if it is just kind

of like one kind of story arc, but, um, it is, it does kind of like lead to,

you know, kind of the types of stories that were more epic that came out maybe

in the '80s where you, like the plots were plotting, you know what mean?

Like the, you, you not only- Like, I'm just thinking of one other book that I

read that was like, I think billed as a romance, but not a romance, and you

were like, before you even got to the protagonist, they were talking about

their grandparents and great-grandparents and how their family landed in the

United States before the two love interests even met, and I'm like, "This

is like a saga," you know what I mean?

And

FRANCESCA : some ways this felt like a saga, 'cause you have so much of his

history and, like, what happened in his life in the 1500s, and the treason,

and the beheading, and, like, he's gotta go back and, like, clear his

family's legacy and all of these things.

And in some ways, like, I find it so interesting how, like, we talk about this

being such a dense and interesting story, but at the same time it's very simple.

Like, I think she was able to do that so well without complicating anything, which

I think that's the part that amazes me the most, is that it's such a simple story,

but at the same time there's so much to it

BECKY.: Totally, 'cause I think that she does a really good job of getting inside

the characters' heads, and, and like I'm fascinated by what Dougless thinks

when she's just like watching him sleep.

You know what I mean?

And it's like you really, y- I don't know.

I think the characters, this is, out of all the books we've read, I feel like the,

these are my favorite characters for sure

FRANCESCA : Yeah, you're getting plenty of depth with the characters.

And even, like I would say up to this point, like yes, the

romance development is there.

Like, it's not super like what we're used to now and like very, very heavy

feelings and lots of connection moments, but it's like those small moments of

connection that have gotten us to this point, which I kind of like because I…

Like, we're always so used to the grand gestures and the big moments,

and this book doesn't have any of that.

BECKY.: Yeah, totally.

And

FRANCESCA : It relies on those li- little moments

BECKY.: Absolutely.

And even now, like I, I think like when I speak with other romance

readers, you know, seeing how like, well, we're 25% in and the first

kiss hasn't happened yet, you know.

To read something and not have that thought in the back of my

mind of like, oh, is the right plot point coming at the right moment?

You're just there for the ride, you know.

It kind of reminds you like why it's so fun to begin with, you know?

FRANCESCA : Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

'Cause I didn't think once about the fact that, oh, well, they haven't kissed yet,

or, you know, they haven't X, Y, Z yet.

I was just along for the ride.

I was just enjoying whatever moments they're going through, w- the moments

of jealousy that you're getting from him, moments of jealousy you're

getting from her, and it's such a small thing, but it kept me fed enough that

I didn't feel anything was missing

BECKY.: And you're also kind of like wondering like so many other things

as well, like who, who betrayed his family, and then also what are

the r- how did he get here still?

You know, like, I know with like something like Outlander, like you know that there's

like no kind of concrete answer, but like your brain is still gonna go there.

And so your brain is like kind of like going here of like, not necessarily

how did he travel forth in time, but why did he travel forth in time?

And, and so you're still, like you're kind of… It really does like capture your

attention in that way of like not only the romance, but like the story part of it

FRANCESCA : Mm-hmm, and also, um, in, with all the time travel romance that

I've read, I've never gotten to see this, but not only did he travel forward in

time, but he's got like this connection with her where she can just like wish

something and he can hear it or feel it, and he knows that he needs to go find her.

Like, I loved that aspect of it, and I had completely forgot.

Like it's, oh sure, it's time travel, but I've never read

a time travel that does that

BECKY.: Yeah.

It's almost like, um, like again, you know, recently I'm reading stuff with

like when there's like fated mates or watching like kind of a micro drama with

like wolves and bonding and, you know, like that kind of thing, and just like,

oh, seeing that, that that's still in there and like, but not ha- not needing

to like put a hat on it, you know what

FRANCESCA : Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

BECKY.: Um, yeah

FRANCESCA : Yeah, 'cause in some ways it did, it did feel like it is a fated

mates trope, um, because they're soulmates

BECKY.: soulmates.

And it kind of is like, okay, well what sh- obviously, like, don't spoil it,

but like, she's obviously serves some important kind of role in this world for

hi- for her to be able to summon him.

You know what I mean?

So it is like, okay, well what, w- who, like, who is she that

she d- doesn't realize yet?

And, you

FRANCESCA : Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think it's gonna be a fun exploration to see, um, as we get into the second

half, and now there's gonna be more answers, some less answers, and I will

say kind of a controversial ending.

So, um, I'm really looking forward to seeing what you think.

BECKY.: I will say, like, I'm, I am looking forward to it.

Obviously, I need to know how it ends, but, like, I don't know about you, but,

like, I, like, sometimes get, like, very too empathetic for, like, fictional

characters, and I just remember, like, not that this is the same thing, but,

like, when Angel and Buffy in season two, like, and Angel-- or i- in the

beginning of season three, when they were apart, like, I had full-on depression.

Like, when Jim and Pam weren't together on The Office, or it's just like they would

get so close and they would get apart, I, like, full-on was like, th- it was the

most stressful, emotional year of my life.

You know, and so, like, that's why I love a book, 'cause you could finish it, and

you to, like, sit in the despair much.

And so I'm like, like right now, I'm like in despair.

FRANCESCA : It's like I need to know.

BECKY.: like, "They're apart

FRANCESCA : good thing is we can go back into it immediately after we get

off here and like, okay, finish it.

BECKY.: Totally.

Yeah, 'cause like honestly, I think I am gonna have to do that

just for like my mental health.

And this just goes show you like how much I should like n- need mental

health because I'm just like, "Well, for my mental health, I'm just gonna

sit still and listen to this." But like she's at the point where like it, is a,

it's a total nightmare as any type of normal human being where you lost

the person you love, not only that, but everyone thinks you're crazy.

and so like that to me is like out of all of the situations like, uh, you can be in

FRANCESCA : It's, it, the, it, it's at the worst possible point in

BECKY.: Totally.

someone who, like, has experienced both those things, I feel like

I'm just like, I'm feeling this is like, this is touching a tender

part of my soul, and I need to work

FRANCESCA : We need to fix that immediately.

BECKY.: Mm-hmm.

FRANCESCA : Yeah, so, uh, I am definitely excited.

I'm definitely gonna be excited to hear what people think as well,

um, and how, you know, how it plays out in the end for everybody.

But yeah, I really love the fact that we're able to read something

that was a little bit lighter

BECKY.: Yes.

Mm-hmm

FRANCESCA : 'cause I feel like we needed a little lightness because when we

think of bodice rippers, we're always thinking of the forced seduction,

the heavy topics, the fact that the heroes are awful and irredeemable.

And just from what I remember about this book, I'm like, well, there

is still something to, to read from those times that, in all honesty, I

feel like it stand the time today.

You know?

Like, you could give this to any reader today and, you know, besides the fact

that, yes, they can tell that it's written in the '80s, but, like, they

would just read this and enjoy this

BECKY.: Yeah, there's nothing that's like, kind of like, oh, you're w-

with reading… gonna-- Yeah, like, there's nothing that's like, okay,

this is w- you know, like you're reading something f- just solely

out of historical context, you know?

Like, this is something you can read and be, like, yes, you can look at

the history of it 'cause it came out in '88 or something, but you can

also just read it to be entertained,

FRANCESCA : Yeah.

BECKY.: And,

FRANCESCA : yeah.

Totally

BECKY.: I feel like there's something about-- I, there's, um,

this, like, th- there's a lot of these, like, time travel romances.

Like, there's the Chris- there's this Christopher Reeve movie

called In Time or something that, like, has this cult following.

It came out in the '80s.

It didn't do well, but everyone-- I've been talking to multiple people who that

movie has such, like, that time travel romance movie has such a, like, secure

place in people's hearts, and I'm, like, curious if this book, there's something

like that too of like, this is like, yeah, it's a product of its time, but at

the same time, it's also timeless, and it just, like, the story itself just,

like, ho- it some, it, it, people are holding it in their heart, you know?

and it just means something to them.

FRANCESCA : I definitely think that that is kind of a thing with this book because

any time I've ever talked about this book, there's always people that are like, "Oh

my God, that book, like it meant so much to me," but I also find it so interesting

that, yes, there's so many time travel stories that people connect with a lot,

and I think that's also seeing like the juxtaposition of two completely different

people and times and all of these things, and like how those work together.

I do think that people connect with that.

But also, in general, they're never the most popular things.

BECKY.: Right.

FRANCESCA : They never are.

Like, I am still devastated that they canceled the TV show Timeless

after like two seasons or three or whatever it was, and I'm like, why?

I mean, I would say probably the only one that has stuck around is Outlander.

BECKY.: Yeah.

but you're absolutely right.

Like, I do think that there is-- Like, I'm so curious, like, what your listeners

are gonna think of, like, okay, like there is a population of people who just,

like, live for time travel love stories.

I that, like, that's a thing.

Like, you know how, like, there's people who love, like, their dark romance and

their bully romance and their monster romance, and we really-- Like, there's

our time travel romance readers.

FRANCESCA : Mm-hmm.

Yes, we're not being fed, people.

We're not being fed.

BECKY.: really need more.

And the thing is, is that like whenever-- like I-- we-- on my show,

I usually ask like guests, especially if they've never read romance before,

like is there a subgenre or trope that like you've heard about that you're

interested in that, um, you know, that you're, that you're curious in reading?

And a lot of them-- like lately, people who don't usually read romance will

bring up, "Is there time travel ones?" And then I'll just like go down this

literal rabbit hole of, um, these, all of these different time travel

romances that are so fascinating, but like I guess for some reason my

algorithm isn't showing me as much.

Um, and it's like, oh, I think there's a lot more time travel romance

FRANCESCA : There's quite a few,

BECKY.: Yeah.

Yeah

FRANCESCA : there's definitely quite a few.

There's some that are rom-com-y.

There's some that are, like, darker ones.

Um, and also, like, for a newer release, there's Bryn Donovan.

I don't know if you've

BECKY.: Yeah.

FRANCESCA : her books, but I… When the first book came out, which was

A Night at the Museum, I think, uh, it reminded me of this book so much

because, like, you're getting that same curiosity and wonder of this knight

discovering, like, you know, that he ends up working at, um, like, a medieval

dinner show or something, and he's like, "Well, I, I can do that 'cause I can,

like, wear my armor and make some money 'cause I have to provide for my woman."

BECKY.: Right.

FRANCESCA : that's what we do." And, like, it was so funny in a way because

it reminded me of that, but we need more.

We definitely need more

BECKY.: Yeah, I'm so curious if it's gonna be, like, the next big thing.

'Cause, like, I've noticed on, like, um… I listened to, like, not that

I'm supporting this, but, like, you know, a lot of, like, the Audible

originals, I think, I wanna say, like, last year, there were a lot of, like,

rom-com Audible originals that included either a time loop element or a time

loop travel segment, and these are rom-coms written solely for Audible.

They're not… S- structurally, it's done as, like, an audio kind of series

those were very time travel-based, so I'm, like, so curious if that's gonna be,

like, the new, um, romantasy in a way of,

FRANCESCA : Ooh, that would

BECKY.: who

FRANCESCA : That would be fun.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mm. Especially like, well, maybe it can be time travel or portal,

like port- kind of portal fantasy, like time traveling into like a

different dimension and different time

BECKY.: Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

FRANCESCA : would be fun

BECKY.: yeah, like a Sliding Doors style, like what happened?

Yeah.

FRANCESCA : Yeah, that would be fun.

Yeah.

So, we'll see.

So be sure to, um, let us know if you are a time travel romance reader.

I definitely am.

I am always looking for more.

I try to read them when I can, but yes, we, we have slim pickings.

We have more than you would think, but we have slim pickings

BECKY.: Right.

I think it's just almost like it-- for me these days, it's like hard

for me not to see-- Like, I'm looking at Booktok, which I know is not the

place to go to see what's popular these days because, like, whatever.

But it-- and sometimes I do get like, well, everyone's into, like, having sex

with dragons these days because Booktok, and then I have to, like, remind myself,

like, there are so many other readers who aren't documenting every moment

of their day and what reading, you

FRANCESCA : Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The only, the only sad part of that is that, yes, there are other readers that

read other things, but sadly, because of the popularity of Booktok, that

is what dictates what authors write.

Because at the end of the day, you need to make money, which I get.

You

BECKY.: Yeah.

Yeah.

FRANCESCA : I totally get.

So it does dictate that.

I, yeah, it's hard because I can imagine if there's an author that has this

wonderful idea for a story, but it's so unconventional that they don't know how

they would market it, and if there's no space for them to market it, one, like

the publishers are not gonna buy it.

So you would have to take on indie, and then if you do take on indie,

how are you gonna promote it if you don't have like a slot that, you know,

you can just like have your comps?

'Cause it's all about the tropes right now and the comps.

Like, oh, if you like this, then, you know, read that.

But I mean, just give me more if you like a du- a, a knight

in shining armor, I'll read it.

BECKY.: Yeah, it's so interesting, like, how much, like, I, I'm

finding myself influenced.

Like, if I'm looking at, like, the, you know, kind of a description of a

book, and I'm finding myself saying, "Oh, it says it was a TikTok sensation.

That's huge." What-- it makes me more intrigued, and I know that I need to

remind myself that TikTok isn't, like, the barometer of what, particularly for

me, of what is gonna, um, intrigue me.

Um, so yeah.

FRANCESCA : Funny enough, I've always, this is not just from Booktok days,

but I've always been the opposite.

The moment something becomes like really, really popular, so if it's like

a Booktok sensation or an author that like gets really, really big, immediately

I'm like, "Let me go find something

BECKY.: Yeah, and I think that's smart.

FRANCESCA : I'm the opposite way.

Like as soon as they hit… There's a few that I think are still ones that I would

continue, especially if I was reading them before, so then I have some experience.

But if it's a new author and like, you know, the, or a new series that

I never got into the series, and now it's like, well, I'm not gonna start.

BECKY.: Yeah

FRANCESCA : I'm not gonna start.

I'm gonna go find that obscure thing that sounds a little weird and sounds

like, you know, they're meshing two different genres or, you know.

BECKY.: Yeah.

'Cause like, I-- it's interesting 'cause, like, I think you were

talking earlier about, like, writers writing to market in order to get,

um, their people buying their books.

You and I are book podcasters.

Me personally, like lately, like I've been wanting to grow

my audience and get listeners.

So when we

FRANCESCA : Everybody go follow Becky, Too Stupid To Live podcast, please.

It is amazing,

BECKY.: Thank you so much.

FRANCESCA : Romance books $5 and under.

BECKY.: please everyone, um, this is just a promo.

But I will say for, um, book podcasters, I think we're also looking for TikTok

books because people are searching for reviews of certain books in podcast

apps, and so you, they, we, and we want them to come to our show, you know?

regardless of whether we like the book or not, you know.

So it's like, oh, okay, now I'm finding myself kind of gravitating

towards, certain tropes or, or things that, like, that people

are gonna search for, you know.

It is kind of-- it does, it does dictate, I think, a lot more than, than just, like,

an author and the books they're reading.

But it's like a lot of people rely on this kind of stuff, whether it's,

like, people who work in bookstores or booksellers, people who work in

publishing and-- or agents, you know.

Like, everyone is, like, kind of beholden to TikTok sometimes.

FRANCESCA : It is.

It is right now.

Like even, um, I remember seeing a couple of authors talking about like, you know

how they do those reports, uh, the agents that they're like, "What, what are people

looking for? What are the publishers looking for? What's popular?" And I

remember seeing a, a thread I think it was, from Silvia Moreno-Garcia, huge,

huge fantasy horror author, like big name.

And she was just saying like, "Well, you know, all they're looking for is

romantasy, and that's not what I write." And all of a sudden I'm like, can you

imagine being such a big name, and you're here sitting with a wonderful

maybe idea or a wonderful story and like there's no space for you to publish that?

Like that I think is so crazy because that's how you

used to get those big books.

You know, like when something does break out and something does get

very popular, it's not because they were following a formula, it's

because they were the trendsetter.

So if you're not publishing those books

BECKY.: It's so hard 'cause like, it's like, and now I'm like on this

existential like what am I doing with my life, but like we're raised to like

be true to ourselves and, you know, don't be afraid of our own voice and

believe in ourselves, and then they're like, but actually the only thing we

want to read is like two hockey players.

You know what I mean?

And like, and, and so like, it's like, well, what do, what,

what are we supposed to do?

Like we, we were told to always be ourselves, but now no one

wants us to be ourselves.

FRANCESCA : We need to fit the mold.

BECKY.: Yeah, yeah.

And it's like, what are we doing?

And it also kind of like leads back to Dougless'' kind of, um, plot line a

little, or character development a little bit because like one thing I noticed in

the book is like she's so concerned with, with makeup and how she looks that like

when she loses her luggage and she's like, "I need to go to the store," her

first thought isn't, I need underwear.

Her thought is, I need mascara.

You know what I mean?

And I'm just like, whether or not like that is kind of a, maybe a

hurtful or whatever, kind of like a stereotypical women be shopping kind of

thing, it made me hurt for her heart.

My heart hurt for her, you know?

And like, because again, like you're molding yourself for some- for,

for someone else and, um, yeah.

And are, are we still doing that but in different ways?

FRANCESCA : We do that in, yeah, I think in so many ways.

And even you see it again when she does get that dress from her sister, which

was I think her mom's dress, and then she's wearing it and her comparing

herself to Arabella, and like all, like that whole scene, it's also about

expectations, and I never would've because I didn't think that I could.

So it, yes, she, there was growth in the sense that she felt she could, but also

it is molding to the standards and the

BECKY.: Yeah.

She is--

FRANCESCA : to just her being comfortable however she was looking before.

You know what I

BECKY.: Exactly, 'cause there is, she does do, like, a lot that, like, granted,

all of us get into those moments at times depending on how we feel about ourselves.

It's not con- W- we can't constantly feel good about ourselves 100% of the time.

That's just not real.

But like, you know, just like seeing her, like, with the jeans and, and,

you know, making her jeans tighter so he notices her ass, and it's like

just seeing her do all those things.

Even though, like, at this point, he's in love with her.

Like, and just doesn't know it yet, but she feels like she has to do all of these

different things to, like, win over the man she's already won over, just even when

she was at her worst in the rain you know?

FRANCESCA : Yeah, yeah, yeah

BECKY.: um, i- it's just like you're kind of like, "Oh, no," you know.

FRANCESCA : Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

I, I felt that sa- like that scene with the jeans, I was like,

"What are you doing? What are you doing? What are we doing here?"

BECKY.: I mean, as some-- as like us, we've survived the pandemic

and like wearing comfortable pants has this new norm.

Like just like it feels like, oh my God, this is like the dentist.

FRANCESCA : Yes.

And, and not wearing makeup, 'cause I think, like, the pandemic was the

moment for me where I was like, "Well, I guess I'm, I'm not wearing makeup

anymore." Like, I'll wear it when I feel like, and which is not all that often

BECKY.: Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's-- It's yeah

FRANCESCA : face just feels nice without it

BECKY.: Or just like I, I'm the same way with like jeans.

Like I'm-- If I'm wearing jeans, I'm, it, it's like I'm going on

like the Oregon Trail of 2026.

I am going on a trek.

I'm gonna be out all day.

FRANCESCA : There's a reason, and they need to be comfortable jeans

BECKY.: No more of those tight jeans.

Yeah.

Like it's just, yeah.

Like,

FRANCESCA : have disappeared.

We don't need them.

Mm-mm.

BECKY.: Agreed

FRANCESCA : And like, when they go shopping and she goes in to like,

get herself some clothes, 'cause first she wasn't gonna do that and

then, um, Nicholas says, "Well, I mean, you, you s- you can't go

around with me looking like that."

And she's like, "Oh, okay." And then she comes out and like, they

describe her outfit, and she was like, you know, feeling herself.

And yeah, I do think that there was a lot of how she presents herself

that dictates her self-worth in some

BECKY.: Totally.

And this isn't to say that, like, a great outfit can't make you feel

g- like, I w- know, like, love wearing cute things and, you know,

I'll, like, doing makeup, whatever.

But, like, the fact that, like, she has this thing, which I will also

admit in my past I've had this too, of like, things won't, like, my life won't

work out if I don't wear this dress.

Because I need to wear this dress to get him to get this, or like, I need to wear

this to feel this way in order to get him because he won't like me if I'm that way.

You know, like, it's like basing so much on a product versus, "Oh, I'm just

gonna wear this and have fun." You know

FRANCESCA : Yeah.

Which, I mean, it goes back to the consumerism.

So,

BECKY.: And 80s was very consumer, like was all that.

Yeah

FRANCESCA : yeah.

yeah.

Which, I mean, maybe that's exactly why we are seeing that reflected,

um, in that time, which maybe you don't see it as much nowadays

BECKY.: Oh, 100%.

Like, that's why I think maybe her character is so striking to us because

not that self-confidence didn't exist for women before 1980s, but there was

like, we didn't have like, '80s were all about excess and all about consumerism

and just like buying, buying, buying.

And it really took like a whole decade, and still, and then some,

for capitalism to be like, "Oh, let's market ourselves off of like

natural beauty," and like saying, "You're beautiful just as yourself,"

and putting those kinds of messages out there, still to sell a product.

That said,

FRANCESCA : They're still selling the product that's make you,

that's gonna make you look natural

BECKY.: Exactly, yeah.

But it is kind of like starting to get reflected in I don't know,

our, what our therapists are telling us these days, you know?

And so like, like what we're su- how we're supposed to feel and, and, and

maybe it is like, yeah, there is something nice to, you know, feeling yourself

and enjoying your natural beauty.

But like, let's just remember it has nothing to do with a product.

FRANCESCA : Exactly.

Yes, so that's the message for today, ladies.

BECKY.: Mm-hmm.

FRANCESCA : Take that, take that to heart.

BECKY.: Yes.

Yes

FRANCESCA : well, I had fun with this first half.

I hope you did too.

BECKY.: I'm scared for the second half 'cause I feel like you've been it seem

like, oh, it's gonna get dark, and I'm like, oh my God, what's gonna happen?

FRANCESCA : I mean in comparison, in comparison.

BECKY.: Th- um, that's making it even worse, I am scared.

I'm scared for what's gonna happen

FRANCESCA : No, don't be scared.

Don't be scared.

I mean, it's still, it's still a happy

BECKY.: It's still happily ever after.

Yes.

Good.

G-

FRANCESCA : it's a happy ending.

I'm not gonna say happily ever after.

It's happy ending.

BECKY.: I'll take a happy I mean, I won't take won't take happy ending?

But I just, like, don't want, like, like, oh my God, this ins- like,

wouldn't it, like, wouldn't it be sa- insane if, like, this book was marketed

as a romance, but all of a sudden th- from this half on, it was like, "Just

kidding, she was in a mental hospital this whole time," and, like, actually

isn't it's book about 1980s, like, psychological maneuvers, you know?

It becomes like One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, and it's like, oh, God.

FRANCESCA : bad, so it's not that dark.

BECKY.: As as it's not that.

Okay.

Yeah,

yeah.

'Cause believe me, like, where we stopped and, like, how I had to just sit there

with my thoughts, my brain went there.

FRANCESCA : They do make it seem a little bit like that, 'cause like the scene where

the vicar is like, "No, you almost got run over by the bus," and I'm like, "Ooh.

BECKY.: That's like the end

FRANCESCA : What do you mean?"

BECKY.: you know what I mean?

Like, that's like absolutely insane.

I think it's like that kind of stuff too where, oh my God, not only like she didn't

even dream it, but she was just like walking around talk- Like, that's like,

FRANCESCA : Talking to herself?

BECKY.: that's like kind of like s- someone who lives in my head all the time.

Like, what a nightmare, you know what I mean?

Of just like realizing your best friend is s- of your imagination and you've been…

FRANCESCA : It was just here

BECKY.: Yeah.

And like, and the thing is, is that like you all just let me talk

FRANCESCA : Nobody stopped me?

BECKY.: person.

Like, and no one's, no one… You're all, it's, it's been a week and

you're now offering to get me help.

Like,

what, where, well, I'm s- glad my mental illness entertained you.

Like,

FRANCESCA : Yeah, I know, right?

Yeah, like, and I was just looking at you, like sitting here talking to

yourself and talking by the, the tomb of this knight from the 15th century.

Like, that seems fishy.

You should've said something before

BECKY.: Yeah, yeah.

It's like you didn't help her, you didn't help her when she lost, like, literally

everything and didn't have a way to get home, but no, when she realizes, it's…

FRANCESCA : I

BECKY.: good job, Vicar.

You're

FRANCESCA : Yes.

Yes.

The Lord's work.

BECKY.: Mm-hmm.

Yeah

FRANCESCA : But all right, so we'll, we'll quit here, and we'll

go immediately to finish the book.

BECKY.: Yes.

Yes.

FRANCESCA : And we'll reconvene

BECKY.: Perfect.

I'm so excited to catch up on the rest

And that's the end of today's episode discussing chapters

one through chapters 18 of A Knight in Shining Armor by Jude Deveraux.

Join us for our part two discussion where we finish the book and we see

what awaits our heroine, Dougless, whether she is crazy or she actually

experienced a knight in shining armor coming to the 1980s to save her

Let us know what do you think about this book, or if you are as obsessed

with time travel romances as I am.

And if you are, what are your favorites?

So make sure you reply to the email or come and talk to us on social

or on the blog don't forget if you haven't joined us yet for the Ripped

and Ravished Book Club where we read bodice rippers and old school vintage

romances one book every two months

The best way to stay up to date with it is to join our email list for it.

So I will leave the sign-up link for that down below.

And also don't forget to go follow Becky's podcast, the Too Stupid

To Live podcast, where she, talks about romance books $5 and under

But for today, that is all we have for you guys, and I will see you in the next one.

Bye