Welcome to the second episode of Ripped & Ravished Book Club, your deep dive into vintage "bodice ripper" romances that helped shape the romance genre as we know it. In this episode of Reading Under the Covers, a romance novel podcast, Francesca from Under the Covers Book Blog and Becky from Too Stupid to Live discuss Chapters 3 and 4 of The Flame and the Flower by Kathleen E. Woodiwiss, often referred as the foundational book of the modern romance boom.

We talk about whether Birmingham is even remotely redeemable, how the book handles trauma aftermath for Heather, and the way "marriage of convenience" shows up here as something closer to marriage for survival. We also compare these vintage dynamics to modern dark romance tropes, and why some scenes read as controlling/abusive through a 2026 lens.

Trigger warnings

This episode includes discussion of: forced marriage, rape/non-consent, abuse of power, controlling behavior, pregnancy, trauma responses, and coercive dynamics. Please take care of yourself and skip if needed.

Becky / Too Stupid to Live

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Timestamps

1. 00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview
2. 00:34 Diving into Chapters 3 and 4
3. 01:03 Trigger Warnings and Sensitive Topics
4. 01:45 Character Analysis: The Redeemable Hero?
5. 03:51 Discussion on Side Characters and Plot Dynamics
6. 14:04 Marriage of Convenience and Historical Context
7. 22:51 Dark Romance Tropes and Modern Comparisons
8. 27:32 Controlling Behavior and Abusive Dynamics
9. 28:31 Modern Parallels and Personal Anecdotes
10. 30:31 The Fiance and Blame Shifting
11. 32:13 Disgusting Virginity Obsession
12. 34:02 Heather's Powerlessness and Hope for Change
13. 36:41 Anticipation and Fear for the Future
14. 38:12 Historical Context and Character Analysis
15. 50:54 Concluding Thoughts and Next Steps

What we cover in this episode

1. The book's attempts (or lack thereof) at making Birmingham "redeemable"
2. Side characters: "saviors," opportunists, and why everyone feels complicit
3. Marriage of convenience as a survival mechanism (and why it lands differently today)
4. Dark romance parallels: "burn the world for her" vs. controlling behavior that reads as abuse
5. The grooming/control vibes around clothing, possessiveness, and escalation
6. The fiancé angle, blame-shifting, and the love-triangle tension returning
7. Virginity as obsession: why it feels uniquely enraging and dehumanizing on the page
8. Heather as the emotional anchor-her intelligence, anger, and realism
9. Why the writing keeps you turning pages even when you hate (almost) everyone
10. Looking ahead to Chapters 5-6 (boat ride dread + America/plantation anxiety)

Links & resources

Ripped & Ravished Book Club hub:

https://www.underthecoversbookblog.com/bodice-ripper-book-club/

Sign up for the book club newsletter:

https://underthecovers.myflodesk.com/ripped-ravished

Kathleen E. Woodiwiss Author Guide:

https://www.underthecoversbookblog.com/kathleen-e-woodiwiss-author-guide/

Romance Evolution Through the Decades (1970s):

https://www.underthecoversbookblog.com/history-of-1970s-romance-novels/

1970s Romance: Iconic Romance Novels:

https://www.underthecoversbookblog.com/1970s-romance-novels/

Next episode

Next up: Chapters 5-6. We're bracing for the voyage, watching for any real shift in power, and asking: when (and how) does this story start to feel like a romance, if it ever does?

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I feel like this is turning into a Bashing Birmingham

2

Becky: he, he, I still don't like him yet.

3

Francesca: I don't think I will.

4

Because how do you come back from that?

5

I

6

Welcome to Reading Under the

Covers, a romance novel podcast

7

where we chat fan girl, and maybe

even swoon over our latest reads.

8

I'm Francesca from Under the Covers

book blog, and today I am joined by

9

Becky from the Too Stupid to Live

podcast In our second episode of the

10

Ripped and Ravaged book Club where

we are discussing the Flame and

11

the flower by Kathleen e Woodiwiss.

12

Today we're gonna be diving into our

thoughts on chapters three and four.

13

If you haven't listened to chapters

one and two yet, go ahead and listen

14

to that first and then come back here.

15

And if you're not following the Ripped

and Ravished book Club yet, I will

16

leave some links in the show notes

down below so you can come and join us

17

in our project for this year of

reading bodice Ripper Romances.

18

We are reading a vintage bodice

ripper romance every two months

19

this year, and we are starting off

with the one that basically started

20

off the whole genre of romance,

which is the flame and the flower.

21

It's iconic, and yes, a lot of

it is a little tough to read.

22

So definitely there's gonna be some

trigger warnings for this particular

23

episode and for the book in general as

we will be discussing things like forced

24

marriage, rape, non-consent, abuse of

power, pregnancy, all kinds of pretty dark

25

family and just cultural dynamics as well.

26

So if any of these things are

triggering to you, please take care of

27

yourself and just skip this episode.

28

But otherwise, if you are ready,

let's dive right into our thoughts

29

on chapters three and four of The

Flame and the Flower by Kathleen E.

30

Woodiwiss.

31

We

32

missed it.

33

Becky: Before, like you say,

everything that you wrote down

34

in caps as you were reading.

35

Yes.

36

Francesca: I have to say I tabbed more

things in this section than in the other

37

one, only because, so here's the thing.

38

I feel like there were parts

of these two chapters where I

39

don't know if the author is like

obviously trying to redeem him, but.

40

And tell me if you also saw

this or if I'm just being crazy.

41

There was a moment like at the end of

the wedding where he makes a comment to

42

the aunt and to me that almost sounded,

' cause he said something about like,

43

where, I gotta look at the tab now.

44

But

45

Becky: Yeah.

46

Oh wait.

47

Tell me what page.

48

Francesca: That's page 113.

49

Yeah, at the very bottom of page 113

where the aunt says Crazy Yankee.

50

Becky: Yeah.

51

Yeah.

52

Francesca: And then he basically says from

you madam, that is truly a compliment.

53

And then like farther down, he says, as

you are aware, madam, what I say is true,

54

I do take care of my own and their debts.

55

Becky: Mm.

56

Francesca: And for me, like that

just made me think that he knows.

57

Becky: Yes.

58

Francesca: Like what?

59

what?

60

the aunt has done and like what she was

going through and all of these things.

61

And I feel like there's these morsels

of like maybe he cares and like

62

he cared to get her out of that

situation, which does not justify

63

Becky: Right,

64

Francesca: what he did.

65

But I feel like I do see those

little pieces where we are trying

66

to make him seem like a caring.

67

Individual.

68

Becky: Wow.

69

Because it's so funny.

70

I still don't see, I think I'm gonna

have to disagree with you there.

71

I, there were times where I was writing

down, this is worse, this is still bad.

72

He's not

73

Francesca: I still think he's worse.

74

Yeah.

75

Becky: Okay.

76

Good, good, good.

77

Yeah.

78

Francesca: I'm just saying I

think that the author was trying

79

to say these are the reasons why

he is, but he's gonna get better.

80

Which, to me it didn't work

because he was still horrible.

81

Like he was so terrible when he takes

her shopping to the lady at the clothing

82

shop or whatever, and like he

brings her there while he's been

83

shopping there for all of his

84

women.

85

Becky: And yes,

86

which is so weird.

87

Francesca: there was so bizarre.

88

Becky: And she was weird too.

89

'cause she was just like,

oh, another like what?

90

You're ter everyone.

91

Everyone's terrible in this book.

92

There's no good side characters.

93

So far

94

everyone's

95

Francesca: she also said something

like something like, it should have

96

been me or something like that.

97

And I'm like, like you are too pure and

too innocent and men are gonna want you.

98

And he's, he now has to be this protector.

99

And I'm like, lady, no.

100

What are you doing?

101

Becky: Yeah, I, I thought that

like, in terms of like an attempt

102

at redemption for me was like kind

of the more violent parts, which

103

I did not like, but he was like.

104

Again you know, there's a chapter where

people sneak into their, in their room

105

at the end and he's so violent with

them and, and it's like, is this him?

106

Is this a way for our romantic hero?

107

Like, is this a depiction of him defending

her honor and then at the, the dress shop

108

when the guy comes in and is like, I was

going back like, he's trying to get her

109

number, but you know, whatever they did,

110

however they, whatever they

111

And then he's so violent with

him and he like pushes him out.

112

And again, I'm like, is this, are we.

113

Is this an attempt to make us like him?

114

Because like, I'm kind of scared.

115

I'm still scared.

116

Francesca: I am very scared, but

I do think that although, 'cause

117

I noticed those moments too.

118

I feel like that to me, was the author

making the attempt like to say, okay,

119

he has some redeeming qualities.

120

We will start.

121

Showing these redeeming qualities,

which for me did not work.

122

But I could see that, that, I think that's

what the author was trying to do, is

123

like trying to paint him in this picture.

124

And also something I will say that I

like that the author did is there was

125

more of a conversation about rape.

126

Not necessarily like right at.

127

Was it right at the wedding night?

128

I don't remember if it was that

scene or if it was after, like when

129

they're at the inn or something.

130

I think it might have

been the wedding night.

131

And she is terrified and I think I,

yeah, it was the wedding night where

132

she's saying I have to, I guess now

I'm his wife, so I have to willingly

133

do these things now and that will

be better for me, which horrible.

134

But at the same time then, he

comes in and like they actually

135

have a conversation about the fact

like, oh, you're more willing now.

136

But then the heroine actually

Heather actually discusses rape.

137

What do you want me to do?

138

Be unwilling every time and I'm gonna

continuously get like violently raped.

139

I'd rather be softly raped.

140

I

141

Becky: Right, right.

142

Yeah.

143

Francesca: But I did like that discussion

happened because it does show us that

144

our heroine understands fully what is

happening to her, what's right or wrong?

145

Like she's, not some

innocent flower, basically.

146

Becky: Totally, like she says, the exact

line, which I thought was very wise for, a

147

person who's only been an adult for a day.

148

She's like, what did she say?

149

She says marriage has

nothing to do with love.

150

And I, I, oh, I don't think,

I think that actually was in.

151

Later on when they were at like

the pub or something, but she says,

152

marriage has nothing to do with love.

153

And I'm like, that is something that like,

154

Francesca: profit

155

Becky: yeah.

156

Yeah.

157

Francesca: Yeah.

158

I think I tabbed that one too

159

Becky: And I was like, she's a,

she's, she's a quick learner.

160

But like understands it.

161

But the thing is, is that I thought

that marriage night, he was way, he was

162

retraumatizing her a little bit and saying

that like basically that like we won't.

163

Like, I won't, you know, force myself

upon you, but you're stuck with me.

164

And that was like sickening.

165

He was like, like sickening to me in

a bad way, not in like a cool way.

166

Francesca: yes, I totally get that too.

167

And again, I'm gonna keep harping on

the fact that the author's trying to

168

soften it is because, like she says

that he was what was the word he used?

169

He really did not like being forced.

170

Into the marriage and because of like how

the Lord Hampton had gone about it, he,

171

it was almost like, I'm gonna take it out

on you because I am in this situation,

172

because I was forced to be here.

173

When you could have.

174

He said we, you could have just come to me

175

Becky: Right,

176

Francesca: might have married you.

177

Yeah.

178

Okay.

179

Sure.

180

But I feel like she tries to put

those things in almost like he's

181

doing this horrible thing, but I

want you to think there's a reason

182

for him doing that to soften the

blow, which again, it doesn't work.

183

I

184

don't think that it softened

any of the blow for me.

185

But I did notice the author doing

that in all of those scenes,

186

Becky: Sure.

187

Yeah.

188

Because there was an attempt to be

like, it it like this is a one for

189

one, you were forced to do something

that you didn't do, and now I'm forced

190

to do something that I didn't do.

191

We're basically the same.

192

And it's like, well, okay,

193

Francesca: no,

194

Becky: no we're not.

195

And also, can we talk about the Hamptons

or the, they're like, so basically they,

196

they come in basically their backstory is

that like they, he, they were friends with

197

her father and they cared so much for her.

198

And when her father died,

there was a question of whether

199

she would stay with them.

200

She didn't.

201

She went and stayed

with her terrible aunt.

202

They kind of come in after they

discover the pregnancy and they're

203

like, don't worry, we're here for you.

204

We're gonna help you.

205

And I'm like, where were you when her

father died, you know what I mean?

206

Like, you're not great people.

207

Like I hope the author isn't

thinking like, oh, she has a savior.

208

These two people.

209

'cause they're terrible too.

210

Everyone's terrible.

211

Everyone's terrible.

212

Francesca: terrible

213

and at the same time, like he's

saying, I'm gonna save you by

214

forcing this man that just raped you.

215

Becky: Yeah.

216

Francesca: marry

217

you.

218

Like almost, I would've said that when he

offered her to be the mistress, I almost

219

would've said that would've been better.

220

She doesn't have to

221

see him ever again.

222

Hello?

223

Sure, reputation, whatever.

224

But she would, I would rather

that than marrying her off to

225

someone that is probably violent,

226

that raped her, that like wild.

227

So then the wedding happens.

228

And again, they're going through

this whole thing, we're here for you.

229

Anything that happens,

blah, blah, blah, blah.

230

Meanwhile, after okay, next day

they're washing their hands off her

231

Becky: Mm-hmm.

232

Francesca: We are done.

233

Let's just have some food.

234

We're gonna take you over there to the

docks and no, we don't need to see you

235

Becky: And send you off.

236

Yeah.

237

Francesca: a little mad and you.

238

You'll go over there and you'll be

raising your kid and you'll be all right.

239

You'll forget all about us.

240

You'll

241

Becky: Mm-hmm.

242

Francesca: That,

243

that, that whole scene was wild to

244

me.

245

Especially like the past, however many

pages, from chapter one where he, Lord

246

Hampton is trying to say, I am gonna

do right by her and force and to Mary.

247

That whole time, they're supposed to be

portrayed as there's the savior is coming.

248

Meanwhile they're doing the this hor, like

they're just pointing her off let's just

249

solve the problem in the way that affects

us the least in society, especially.

250

'cause she'll be shipped off to the

Americas so we don't have to have

251

anybody talking about us anymore.

252

Becky: Totally.

253

Francesca: what they wanted.

254

Becky: Yeah.

255

Yeah.

256

And like this, like at the time.

257

In at the time that this book was

written like this, it would be

258

like, oh, what a valiant effort.

259

You know what I mean?

260

And, but looking at it now,

I'm like, there no, there's

261

nothing is done out of love.

262

There is no love.

263

This is, there's nothing

romantic up in this book so far.

264

No romance.

265

There is no, this is still not a romance.

266

Francesca: We are still

not at the romance stage.

267

Here I am a little concerned ' cause

we are now quite a bit into this book.

268

Becky: Yeah.

269

Oh yeah.

270

We're about like, what, a

hundred page, 150 pages in.

271

And also, like, what I thought,

again, like equally kind of

272

viscerally disgusting to me was

when he kisses her at the wedding.

273

And even though it was a kiss and not

like, whatever assault, like it like.

274

Well, it is assault.

275

You know what I mean?

276

It wasn't I, my point is, is that it

re-traumatized her over what happened,

277

and that was really difficult to

read after knowing what happened.

278

And I'm like, like, and so I kept

writing down, oh my God, this is worse.

279

This is worse.

280

Like in just all caps,

this is so much worse.

281

This is so much worse.

282

Francesca: It is that especially like

they're, okay, you may kiss the bride

283

and he kisses her and everybody has

to like, basically feel uncomfortable

284

about what he was doing for him to stop.

285

Becky: Yeah.

286

Yeah.

287

'cause he's like, it wasn't even

like a chaste kiss, you know?

288

Like it was like, like even if

like two people were doing that,

289

who were very much in love.

290

At their wedding, like there's

like, it was lingering, it was long.

291

There was tongue, there's a priest there.

292

Francesca: okay, the priest would be like,

293

Becky: yeah.

294

Get a room.

295

Yeah.

296

Francesca: you'll get to that later.

297

Becky: Jesus.

298

Yeah.

299

Yeah, yeah.

300

Yeah.

301

Francesca: Yeah, for sure.

302

That was also traumatizing.

303

So many, so many scenes.

304

I feel like also you get to experience

more of like the aftermath of the trauma.

305

Like she is so jumpy and just, the PTSD

306

Becky: yes.

307

Mm-hmm.

308

Francesca: you do get to,

to see that in, in a way.

309

I appreciated that because it's not.

310

Brushing it off as if it

didn't have any impact on her.

311

So I did appreciate that We get

to see that as opposed to her just

312

being okay, I am just gonna, power

313

through and now I am married and

hopefully it'll be a good life.

314

She's still traumatized, like

315

Becky: Totally.

316

She, yeah, like she's definitely like

written as a fully fledged like human

317

being, having very human responses

to this terrible situation she's in

318

versus like, yeah, in something else.

319

Like again, she could just look like a.

320

Not, not be written very genuinely and

like, not look real and not feel real.

321

And we won't be able to empathize with

her when she's like, okay, I'm fine now.

322

Things are okay.

323

Like on paper, I'm

married, so we're good bye.

324

You know?

325

And it's like, well now you're just dumb.

326

Like, not dumb, but like

just naive, you know?

327

Francesca: Yeah.

328

Which I think is good because

in a way it's really not

329

romanticizing what happened to her.

330

So even though we are not reading a

romance, I feel like that's what makes

331

sense for the story because yeah,

what we read was not happy go lucky.

332

So now again I am still team.

333

I don't know how he's coming

back from this to be a redeemable

334

hero that I could tolerate.

335

However, I do think that we

are getting to a point where.

336

Hopefully, and maybe there's

gonna be a time jump.

337

I don't know.

338

Because the other thing I was thinking

is how long would it take at that

339

time to do that trip to the Americas

because it would take a long time.

340

And she is pregnant and it

341

had already been a little

bit of time already.

342

So it's like she, she gonna

make it like I am stressed.

343

Becky: Hmm.

344

Yes.

345

Yeah, like, I like the idea

of going on on a boat now.

346

Sounds horrible.

347

After having like eggs for breakfast,

let alone being pregnant and

348

going on a 19 or 17 hundreds boat.

349

Jesus Christ.

350

Yeah.

351

Yeah.

352

Like, oh, what was I gonna say?

353

Well, you know, it's interesting 'cause

like we were talking about how like.

354

A lot of tropes were developed in this

book and now I feel like it's kind

355

of interesting 'cause we're coming

to the marriage of convenience trope

356

of like, okay, these

two have to be married.

357

'cause like, basically like, the,

the Birmingham, what's the captain?

358

He's at his life is at stake too.

359

Like Hampton Kind.

360

He feels like Hampton threatened him.

361

And also of course, Heather's

life is at stake in terms of like

362

being ruined or, and whatever.

363

So now it's like the best thing.

364

Yeah.

365

The best thing that they can do

for each other is be married.

366

They are do, this is just a, this

is a marriage of survival, if you

367

Francesca: Yeah, basically.

368

Becky: And so it is interesting to

kind of see like, okay, like there's

369

nothing they can do but work together.

370

And also they hate, but like they

now they also resent each other.

371

So then we have our kind of

enemies to lovers kind of thing.

372

'cause they just are

both so rightfully so.

373

Her more than him.

374

Resentful.

375

Yeah.

376

Francesca: Yeah.

377

Absolutely.

378

And also I was thinking

about it in terms of that I.

379

Marriage of convenience.

380

But also, you know how in a lot of

historical romances that we read

381

today, there's the, oh, they were

caught in a compromising situation,

382

so now they have to get married.

383

And you know what, I never felt

reading any of those books.

384

I never felt like there was actual danger

to the heroine when we were talking

385

about Lord Hampton before, I never felt

reading those historical romances where.

386

The family was just pointing her off

on this horrible person, even though,

387

maybe it was a rake and all of these

things, but they were never putting her.

388

In harm's way.

389

Becky: Mm-hmm.

390

Francesca: that that's the part that

I'm having a hard time with is that even

391

her family, which obviously, I mean her

family failed her from day one, but it

392

has the trope, but at the same time it's

very, it's a very different development

393

and presentation of that trope.

394

And I do see how, it's been modernized

and how it's changed now to make

395

it more palatable, but in a way.

396

That's like the same thing as

397

what we read now in historical romances.

398

Becky: Right.

399

Yeah.

400

But it's like, it's kind of interesting

because it's like, okay, is it more

401

palatable or is it like, 'cause

like when I, when I think of like

402

current marriage of convenience, the,

there are side characters and, and

403

everything they're doing is out of love.

404

Like, it's difficult for like a, a.

405

Parent to love their child when they're

watching their child be married off

406

to someone that they don't know.

407

And you kind of see the

characters grapple with it and

408

in, in, in a modern day romance.

409

And so it does kind of like.

410

Feels very real and genuine.

411

It's kind of like exploring, you know,

guilt and love and all these things

412

versus this where like, it feels like,

you know, they're wiping their hands

413

clean and they, they, we don't see them

feel like any sort of remorse or guilt.

414

And you could say that it was the times,

like you absolutely could say that.

415

And this is just two people

reacting to how they were.

416

Kind of like brought up, but it kind

of like diminishes like kind of the

417

sanctity of human emotion, you know?

418

I think despite rules and regulations

I'm imagining people still felt guilt.

419

People still felt love, people still felt

like marriage was, you know, like kind

420

of a death sentence and things like that.

421

And, and it's just like, oh, I

wish I just saw like an inch.

422

Even if it was just like a, a one

sentence of the Hamptons being like.

423

Frowning or something,

you know what I mean?

424

Then it was like, yeah, I get it.

425

You know, n now I kind of see the

humanity in it all of about them.

426

But now they're just like characters

of just like, they were like

427

secretaries for her life, you know?

428

Like, just like the be,

they're like, I don't know.

429

She was like at the DMV and she

was just filling out a form and

430

they're like, next, let's find the

next sad woman to help, you know.

431

Francesca: Whoever doesn't

ruin our reputation in society.

432

And if this is gonna look a little

like a bad stain, let me just.

433

Wipe it.

434

Becky: Right, exactly.

435

Yeah.

436

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

437

Francesca: Also, something I

found interesting is the fact

438

that we are bringing back Henry,

439

Becky: Mm-hmm.

440

Francesca: which, I thought

that we were done with Henry,

441

Becky: Me too.

442

Francesca: It makes me question

why we had to have that scene

443

Becky: Mm-hmm.

444

Francesca: and if we were gonna

see him later on in the book.

445

Becky: Because like that

446

Francesca: make sense to that

chapter was already closed.

447

You know what I mean?

448

Becky: totally like I thought,

'cause like what she does, you know,

449

to like get rid of Henry, which is

what we see in a lot of romances to

450

kind of push our character away for.

451

One final time is the insult.

452

You know, like our, our characters are

trying to like our, like our protagonist

453

thinks, I, this person cannot be with me.

454

I will ruin their life.

455

What is it gonna take for me to.

456

Get them away from me and they

do the harshest thing they can

457

do, which is insult that person.

458

And that's usually the final straw.

459

And then that, then we have our

protagonist dealing with the guilt

460

of like the horrible things that they

said just to push this character away.

461

So I was surprised to see Henry because

I'm like, oh, he's not pushed away.

462

He took her insults and changed,

you know, and is like, I'm

463

doing this, I'm doing that.

464

And then I was like, okay, well

this is introducing another trope,

465

the love triangle, if you will.

466

And, but it made me very uncomfortable

because like, yeah, I mean, I, I

467

mean that's just like, it's an insane

thing to have happened of just like

468

I did everything you asked and that,

but you didn't ask, but that you

469

kind of made it seem like you were

asking for, and and I was like,

470

Francesca: should be ready to marry me.

471

Becky: exactly.

472

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

473

And and of course like again, like

you see kind of Birmingham getting

474

very, not, he wasn't like physical.

475

Was he physically violent?

476

It was like,

477

I mean, he was like a.

478

Francesca: as physically

violent at that scene.

479

He just covered her and

480

Becky: yeah.

481

Francesca: her away.

482

I

483

Becky: Mm-hmm.

484

Yeah.

485

So there was like aggression there that

I think made me like his personality.

486

Like Birmingham's person.

487

Francesca: for sure.

488

He was pissing everywhere.

489

Becky: Exactly.

490

And I think sometimes.

491

Like, yeah, like showing that sort

of aggression can be scarier than

492

like punching someone, you know,

sometimes, because it's like you're

493

kind of left with, wait, what are you

gonna do if I take your territory?

494

Versus like, oh, when he punches the

guy, you know, it's like, okay, we see,

495

we see the height of what he can do.

496

It's just, it's just the punch.

497

Don't worry.

498

You know?

499

I mean, it's all terrible, but it's

just the not knowing adds to the fear

500

of like, this guy, who is this guy?

501

Like, he made me very, I like, I was like.

502

Is his mental health.

503

Okay.

504

He clearly has like

anger issues and, yeah.

505

Yeah.

506

No, he's not.

507

Okay.

508

Francesca: that.

509

There definitely needs to be some anger

management because he is not okay.

510

Also they're going back to North

Carolina 'cause he owns a plantation

511

Becky: I know.

512

I, it's so wild.

513

Yeah.

514

And that, that is come and like the

term plantation comes with its own.

515

And, and you know, I was, 'cause like

I on, on the synopsis in the back

516

of the book, you know, it says like

she, he takes her to his plantation

517

where he explores her womanhood.

518

Like, and it's just like, everything

about that sentence is so gross.

519

And, and, and at the time

it wasn't supposed God.

520

I don't know.

521

It's just, it's just so gross.

522

It's so icky.

523

Francesca: Very icky.

524

Very icky.

525

Like the whole thing was icky and

then he's talking about it, and

526

then she was even questioning.

527

Where am I gonna be?

528

Like once I get there, what's

529

Becky: Mm-hmm.

530

Francesca: to me?

531

Am I even gonna live in the house?

532

What's gonna be my role.

533

And I actually appreciated her having

those fears and talking through those

534

fears and we're seeing all of that.

535

Again, favorite character in this whole

story, Heather, because she is a fully

536

formed, fully fledged normal person

537

Becky: Mm-hmm.

538

Francesca: with the normal feelings

for everything that's happening.

539

And at the same time, I do think that the

author is trying to paint him in a way as.

540

That savior, Stockholm syndrome in a way,

because, oh, she's gonna fall for him

541

because he is her savior and protector.

542

Like when you said the two

guys that broke into the room.

543

But even before that, when she was scared

that he wasn't gonna come back to the room

544

and then when he comes and like she breaks

down and she's crying because he is back.

545

So we are starting to see, I think

a little bit of that codependency.

546

'cause she has.

547

She has nothing.

548

She has nobody.

549

And at this moment, he is all she has.

550

So I think we are starting to see a little

bit of that, which, it's not healthy, but

551

Becky: But like there's a level of her,

552

Francesca: like a lot of

the things in this book.

553

Becky: right?

554

I mean, there's a level of her, like

I I, from what I've heard about this.

555

Book and what I, where I imagine it's

going and what every other romance

556

has done since then is showing she's

empowered by being able to tame him.

557

You know?

558

She was scared he wasn't gonna come back.

559

Something about her made him come back,

and that it's kind of just like the

560

initial like ounce of, of empowerment

she has, you know, it's like, okay,

561

it's starting to build, it's starting to

build, but I, oh God, I, I just feel like.

562

He's still such an animal.

563

He's an animal.

564

Francesca: such a low extreme

565

that like to redeem him

from that, it's a lot.

566

Also I do think that.

567

You know how like we, we see these

tropes now of the hero that is

568

like horrible to everybody but her.

569

I don't remember what you call that

trope, but that that is a trope

570

of the guy being like, so terrible.

571

So in a way, that is another

trope we have here because

572

yes, he is terrible even to her.

573

But then I'm assuming he's gonna stop

being so terrible to her at some point

574

so that we're gonna have that oh he's.

575

He can be this terrible individual,

but she makes him better or he's good

576

with her, or whatever, which we do

see a lot in Modern Romance to date.

577

Becky: Totally.

578

There is the trope of, I would

burn, I will burn the world for you.

579

And I think that's like a

very sexy kind of thing.

580

I recently have been on a kick of

reading a lot of like demon romances

581

where like someone is falling in love

with like a literal death, death demon

582

who is literally murdering people.

583

And, and she's like, I love for,

you know, like I just read one where

584

it was like she was with like a.

585

It was like a grim reaper romance.

586

And she wanted revenge against these

people who did like horrible things.

587

He, the murders are so brutal.

588

Like, and it's like, that was dark.

589

Like that was

590

Francesca: satisfying 'cause

591

Becky: but it was like, so

592

Francesca: to her.

593

Becky: exactly.

594

It was so satisfying to see her like,

get her revenge and then like right after

595

they're like having sex and I'm like,

this is so gross and weird and I love it.

596

So like.

597

I, I do see that, but I guess because

like there's something about him

598

that he's so en enigmatic in a way

that's so scary that I'm not like,

599

okay, You are doing scary things.

600

Like, like he's, he literally is

forcing people to go out of the

601

window and injure themselves.

602

That is so sadistic

603

and like, that's is scary to me.

604

Versus like a demon who is a grim

reaper, where it's like, well,

605

we know what's on the resume.

606

He does what he

607

Francesca: But,

608

he's doing it to, he never actually

does it to the heroin, and he's

609

actually just doing it to the

people that like deserve it.

610

I

611

guess that is also, there's a, there's

something that I highlighted on page 92,

612

which is, and this made me think,

our conversation we were having

613

about Dark Romance the other day

614

and how this kind of feels like that.

615

And so Heather thinks about, what.

616

What Birmingham is, and she

says she doesn't say it.

617

She thinks it, he was Satan to her

618

Becky: Mm-hmm.

619

Francesca: ruthless, evil.

620

He could draw her soul from her

body and never feel remorse.

621

And when I read that, I, it

brought me back to the dark

622

Romans conversations just because.

623

That is literally the same things

that we would say about those heroes.

624

And it was funny to see, funny to see

that in this context of this horrible

625

person, because I almost feel like.

626

That didn't go far enough

to what he's done to me.

627

That is how I would describe the normal,

morally gray, dark romance heroes, or the

628

demons or all of the things.

629

And it, it almost felt like it was

such a soft way to describe him,

630

even though she's saying

he was Satan to her, but it

631

almost didn't feel dark enough.

632

Becky: No, it definitely didn't.

633

It felt like, like the way she was

like, you know when like you are

634

on a date with someone and they're

kind of mean to the server, and

635

you're like, who am I on a date with?

636

Like that, that it was that

feeling, you know what I mean?

637

Of like, it was like, oh, you're kind of

like rude and do you know what I mean?

638

Francesca: Like

639

Becky: That's what she was feeling.

640

Francesca: probably go and

murder that server behind

641

The restaurant in the alley.

642

Becky: exactly.

643

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

644

Like, I don't trust you.

645

But it is, yeah, it's interesting.

646

Yeah.

647

Francesca: And then on the other

hand, when she was getting sick,

648

when they first, are sailing off and

he notices that she's getting ready

649

to get sick and he helps her to.

650

Becky: What a gen.

651

Yeah.

652

Total gen.

653

Francesca: So nice.

654

Becky: Yeah.

655

Francesca: then right after it's go get,

go to the bedroom, you know where it is.

656

Wear something nice for me.

657

Ah.

658

Becky: And I think that's another

thing of the clothing of it all.

659

I understand there is like, like

I understand like it is, I guess,

660

pretty sexy when you are consenting

to, to, you are consenting

661

to your power for a certain.

662

Circumstance, whether it's clothing

or being tied up or whatever to

663

another person, and it's agreed upon.

664

But he was really obsessed with

what she was wearing to the point

665

where he spends all day with

her in the modiste or whatever.

666

Choosing her outfits, choosing

the fabric, all this stuff.

667

And it to me like red is

like, this is an obsessive.

668

Stalker.

669

Like this is like weird, you know?

670

And I know back then I'm curious

if people are thinking like, oh,

671

it just shows how much he cares.

672

He wants her to have the best

fabric and dah, dah, dah.

673

And I'm like, he is

controlling what she wears.

674

This is abusive.

675

Like I'm

676

scared.

677

Francesca: Yeah, for sure.

678

To the point that even when she was

looking through the drawings and stuff

679

and she wanted to look at other things,

more simple, less costly or whatever,

680

and he's no, I'm gonna make the decisions

here and blah, blah, blah, blah.

681

But even before that, when she

was wearing the clothes that

682

he had actually gotten for her.

683

In a different context.

684

'cause he had gone to shop

while she made her escape.

685

So these were more risque

686

Becky: Mm-hmm.

687

Francesca: And then she had

to wear that to go to the inn.

688

And of course that attracted a

certain attention that he didn't want.

689

Becky: Of

690

Francesca: was also something he chose.

691

He was thinking like, I'll have her

locked up and nobody's gonna see her,

692

but now nobody can see that but me.

693

So he immediately, after seeing that

happened, he immediately said, okay, we

694

gotta go get you different clothes because

no definitely a lot of control issues.

695

Becky: Yeah.

696

Like and also, and all the men

have obv, like clearly like

697

everyone, like she is in a wild

698

Francesca: happens to this day.

699

I

700

Becky: True.

701

Yeah.

702

Francesca: of somebody there,

there was this person that said

703

to me that she always has to

ask her husband what to wear.

704

And the reason why she said that

is because she says I can't look at

705

myself, so he has to tell me how I look.

706

And I just had to turn

around and walk away because.

707

I don't know what to get a mirror.

708

You can look at yourself

709

if yeah.

710

So that, that still happens today.

711

So we don't have to go that far

712

to to apply those same things here, but

713

Becky: Yeah, I mean, of course,

like I do think that like the

714

way we rely on the people in our

life can look like it mimics.

715

Maybe something that's like passe, like

I still like, don't know how to fix this

716

and require my brother to help me fix it.

717

And I feel like an idiot

girl because like, whatever.

718

But with this though, oh, what,

where was I going with this?

719

It's still very like we, he, he

doesn't let her choose to let him.

720

Do this for her.

721

And I think that's the issue.

722

And I know, I'm like, I know it's

like kind of like I'm, it's like

723

semantics in this case of just like,

you want to want to wash the dishes.

724

Like I get that, but like, I

think in this case it's necessary.

725

Like we want to see that

she has her own agency.

726

Francesca: Yeah.

727

Yeah.

728

'cause right now she has none.

729

Zero whatsoever.

730

Becky: yeah.

731

Yeah.

732

Francesca: and she's basically

going off to a strange land

733

Becky: Mm-hmm.

734

Francesca: she's gonna be away

from anything she's ever known.

735

Like it's just such a difficult position.

736

And I feel like even if he realized

just that much, that he could make

737

her feel a little safer in that, even

within that context, to give her a

738

little bit of agency to make some

choices about what's happening to her.

739

But No.

740

we, we still don't have that.

741

Becky: Yeah, like I feel like it's

like did empathy not exist then?

742

Like, I don't know.

743

Empathy didn't exist

744

Francesca: didn't have any.

745

Becky: No,

746

Francesca: that's for sure.

747

And then of course the, even the

passing thought of the fiance.

748

'cause at some point he says I

don't know what I'm gonna tell.

749

What am I supposed to tell her

that I saw you and I felt madly in

750

love and like I had to marry you?

751

Which was such a crappy

thing to say to her

752

Becky: Yeah.

753

Yeah, because he's again, like, he's

like, he's like, look what you did to me.

754

And I'm like, wait a minute, dude.

755

Like it, and, and

756

Francesca: one that raped me.

757

You could have stopped.

758

Becky: Exactly.

759

Yeah.

760

Or you could just like

761

Francesca: putting a gun

to your head and you.

762

knew that she was a virgin.

763

'cause like you realize that.

764

Hello?

765

Becky: Yeah.

766

And he also was hiring

prostitutes many times before.

767

He, this is a lecherous man.

768

He is a leech.

769

He has always been terrible and on.

770

All he wants to do is just blame

other people for his mistakes.

771

And the thing is, men were

allowed to do that then,

772

you know?

773

Francesca: The way of the world.

774

That was the

775

way of the world.

776

I will say, I feel like this is

turning into a Bashing Birmingham

777

Becky: he, he, I still don't like him yet.

778

Francesca: I don't think I will.

779

Because how do you come back from that?

780

I don't think that it's in my

capacity to come back from that.

781

I hope for Heather's sake

that it gets a little.

782

More tolerable, but I don't know.

783

And then at some point he says

something like, he likes babies.

784

Becky: Mm-hmm.

785

Francesca: to like, that she's gonna

have a child because he likes babies.

786

And I'm like, you're the farthest thing

from what I would say needs to be around

787

Becky: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

788

I would never let you around.

789

I like, honestly, I feel like this

guy, he just wants a doll and a pet.

790

You know what I mean?

791

You don't want a wife, you

want a, you wanna play with

792

Barbies and you want a dog.

793

Like, this is what this is.

794

This does not mean, can you

mean you're a good husband?

795

Something else that like

really, really grossed me out.

796

And.

797

Like, I think a lot about is she,

she's returning to the boat and she's

798

very embarrassed by seeing like the

boat's crew who had seen her before and

799

now she's back, she's wedded to him.

800

She is like, they're gonna think I'm

like this prostitute, dah, dah, dah, dah.

801

And he goes, oh, don't worry.

802

The.

803

My, like, servant or whatever,

saw the blood on the sheets.

804

George saw the blood on the

sheets, so he don't worry.

805

He knows that you are a virgin.

806

And I was like, this is

so fucking disgusting.

807

Like, everything about

this is so disgusting.

808

I, I hate this like, like that.

809

To me

810

Francesca: That was terrible.

811

Becky: it was awful.

812

Francesca: that.

813

And then also I think there was a

moment there too, where George was

814

pleased that she was a virgin, and then

she turns around and asked Birmingham

815

were you plea like accusing also, were

816

you pleased?

817

And he's I told you.

818

Yeah, of course.

819

Becky: And I'm just like,

820

Francesca: whole thing, like why

821

Becky: why are we talking up?

822

It was so icky.

823

Yeah.

824

Like I'm like, get out of her body.

825

Get like, I literally, it was like, why

is everyone talking about this woman's bo?

826

And I mean, I've always felt this way.

827

Like whenever I, I read anything

historical or like watch, like

828

anything that has to like bring

up a woman's virginity, I find

829

it so repulsive and disgusting.

830

And the fact that like.

831

Wars were fought over whether

or not a woman was a virgin.

832

Like I'm just like, get

everyone out of her body.

833

Get out of there.

834

This is none of your business.

835

Leave alone, everyone

stop talking about it.

836

You have more people talking about a

woman's body than the woman herself.

837

That's a problem.

838

Francesca: Yeah.

839

Yep.

840

Even like the whole crew had to

talk about whether she was a virgin.

841

'cause like they're having a

discussion about the sheets.

842

Becky: Yeah.

843

Yeah.

844

Sickening.

845

Yes.

846

Oh.

847

It was like, it's so, it, it's so

infuriating to me and like, and I think

848

maybe that's what I'm feeling with this

book is just like, it, it's really hard to

849

see how I, I do like her and I like that

we like her, but it is hard to just like

850

see how powerless she is and, and there's

nothing, she can't change the times.

851

Like she can't make it.

852

2026 obviously.

853

But yeah, and, and so it's like

sometimes like when I like listen to

854

other people talk about like, like

being like annoyed on behalf of the

855

protagonist like this, it's like, okay,

I think I get what they're saying of

856

like, just being in this situation where

it's like, oh God, it's just deeper.

857

It just gets deeper and

deeper, deeper and deeper.

858

Francesca: and as much as sometimes in

modern books, we get annoyed with the

859

heroines for not doing the things here.

860

Like you said, she's powerless,

861

Becky: She can't.

862

Francesca: to do and adjust

and hope that it gets better,

863

like she has no other choice.

864

Becky: Yeah.

865

Yeah.

866

Francesca: Which is why I need

something good to happen to her.

867

It still hasn't, I was

868

hoping that these two chapters

were going to be a little ray of

869

sunshine, even if it was small.

870

But no, it did.

871

It makes sense though because yeah, they

just got married, he was just forced to

872

get married, which I thought that was

also like really fast how we went to them

873

saying, okay, we're gonna force him too.

874

Come downstairs for the wedding.

875

Becky: Right.

876

Yeah.

877

Francesca: no transition in terms

of like how the author set that up.

878

It was really abrupt

from one to the other.

879

And yeah, I think in terms of like

writing and stuff, that's probably

880

the only thing that I noticed.

881

The writing does keep me very engaged,

882

Becky: Me too.

883

Yeah.

884

Francesca: fascinating because I'm

like even reading some of these

885

horrible things, I need to know more.

886

I need to know what happens

in this situation, and as

887

much as I don't like 99.9%

888

of the characters, I still enjoy reading.

889

Becky: Yes.

890

Francesca: Let's put it that way.

891

As much as I don't like the characters,

that doesn't mean I am not enjoying

892

the reading experience of it.

893

And for something, as much as we already

have read things that came after and

894

that used let's say the same formula.

895

It is.

896

It is probably a true testament to how

powerful of a book it was at the time

897

because it is still able to do that

even with how we're feeling about

898

some of the things that are happening

899

in the storyline, and we are still

like hanging on to every moment and

900

wanting to see what happens next,

speaking on what happens next.

901

Becky: Mm-hmm.

902

Francesca: I have no idea

what's gonna happen next.

903

You know how like

904

sometimes you're like I think I

have this like where it's going.

905

Figure out, no clue.

906

Zero.

907

I am just strapping in for the right.

908

Becky: Exactly, because like, we're

still like, I think like after the

909

first two chapters, I think both of us

were like, okay, a transition is gonna

910

happen now we're here two chapters later.

911

A transition has not happened.

912

If anything, things have

transitioned for the worst.

913

And I, we are even more

stressed what is going on.

914

And, and so like, I think, like, you know.

915

One of the reasons why I, myself, and

maybe other people love romance, is

916

just like the realization, like the, the

turnaround of when, like, they finally

917

realize that they at least love each

other or at least respect each other.

918

And we're like, when is

this turnaround gonna be?

919

Cause usually, like in some books, it's at

20% in, and this one we are reading a book

920

that was published in 1972 and there's

no like Kindle percentage rate on it.

921

And so you, so with this guy who

like, again, I, it is so scary.

922

We don't know what he's gonna

do next when, when he's angry.

923

Like, what is he gonna

do next when he is happy?

924

Like, I'm scared for that too.

925

You know?

926

Like

927

Francesca: like in his own like

928

safety, like in the sense that once they

get to his home, that is where he feels

929

the most powerful because even as whatever

he feels that he can do, but he is.

930

In another country where, yeah, something

can happen and he can be put in jail.

931

But once he comes back home and

he's a plantation owner, he knows

932

that he can do anything he wants.

933

So that's even more scary,

934

Becky: yeah.

935

And the fact that he, I'm

assuming he owns, yeah.

936

Like, I'm assuming he owns people, I'm

assuming that like, which I'm really,

937

that I'm scared to read as well.

938

Which I thought Outlander actually brought

it up pretty well of, you know, just

939

acknowledging I won't, i, I won't live on

a place where, where you own sleep, they

940

like, just like cannot happen, you know?

941

And it's like setting the boundaries

and it's like, oh, I don't wanna read.

942

Like, not that I don't want to, I don't

want to see something as, as horrible

943

as that being undermined in this book.

944

You know?

945

'cause it is just like that is Yeah.

946

I don't know.

947

And I think it might be, I don't know.

948

Francesca: it might.

949

It might be.

950

It might be.

951

We'll have to see where

they go with that one.

952

But I am definitely concerned and even

just how he's gonna act, because anytime

953

where he feels safer, like for example,

he didn't act a certain way towards

954

her when he was at Lord Hampton's house

for the wedding night because he didn't

955

want anybody to hear or whatever.

956

So like how is he going to act now

that he has her all to himself?

957

Becky: Yeah, and I'm also like, what?

958

Like, I'm, I'm curious as to like, what

is it gonna take, what, what is she

959

gonna do that's gonna make him turn?

960

Because like obviously like we have

a taming of the male shrew here and

961

something is gonna happen where she

tames him and I'm like, so curious

962

as to like, what is it gonna be?

963

And.

964

Another thing is that like, I really

like that she has anger in her too.

965

Granted she's only allowed to

express it in a certain way.

966

But like she, like in a way, like

she is the flame in the flower and

967

this guy is just there for the ride.

968

You know what I mean?

969

Yeah.

970

Francesca: is.

971

Which I really like that because I

feel like maybe that is what turns

972

it around is the fact that she's not

this innocent wallflower she has.

973

A lot of fire in her and a little

bit of a rebellious nature, which

974

she was never safe to explore.

975

And maybe that is what he's going

to give her is that little bit of

976

safety to explore that side of her

977

Becky: Mm-hmm.

978

Francesca: in a way, because of the end of

the day, what's the worst that he can do?

979

He already did

980

Becky: Right, right.

981

Francesca: as it's gonna get,

982

Becky: Yeah.

983

Francesca: Yeah, so I think that might

be, which once she gets that confidence

984

going and all of that comes out and that's

what takes it to the next level for him,

985

Becky: Mm-hmm.

986

Totally.

987

Yeah.

988

I'm scared.

989

I'm scared for this boat ride.

990

I am like preemptively nauseous for her.

991

Francesca: Can you

992

imagine being stuck on

a boat in those times

993

with whatever boats were like, they

didn't have all the best everything.

994

And being pregnant

995

Becky: Mm-hmm.

996

And with all surrounded by men who And

like who, like in the conditions, like

997

even if she has like the captain's

998

Francesca: type of men.

999

And

00:40:48,875 --> 00:40:49,165

Becky: Yeah.

00:40:49,215 --> 00:40:51,535

Francesca: of men, because

let's face it, certain

00:40:51,535 --> 00:40:53,305

type of man was working

00:40:53,485 --> 00:40:54,775

that particular job.

00:40:54,775 --> 00:40:55,435

So

00:40:55,535 --> 00:40:57,275

Becky: crew members were hi.

00:40:57,305 --> 00:41:00,605

Like he, part of the job description

of his crew members were to find

00:41:00,605 --> 00:41:03,575

him prostitutes, and it's like,

okay, well what kind of like,

00:41:03,675 --> 00:41:05,385

people are gonna take this job?

00:41:05,445 --> 00:41:08,655

Like no one's like, oh, I

only wanna work the open seas.

00:41:08,655 --> 00:41:09,465

Like, do you know what I mean?

00:41:09,615 --> 00:41:10,225

I'm like, yeah.

00:41:10,325 --> 00:41:13,445

Francesca: That is definitely

going to be interesting.

00:41:13,505 --> 00:41:13,925

Becky: Mm-hmm.

00:41:14,015 --> 00:41:15,245

Francesca: will be an interesting ride.

00:41:15,425 --> 00:41:20,195

I still am gonna stick with my prediction

that Henry comes back around in this book

00:41:20,295 --> 00:41:20,955

Becky: He might.

00:41:21,055 --> 00:41:23,555

Francesca: maybe he

comes to North Carolina.

00:41:23,555 --> 00:41:24,215

I don't know.

00:41:24,455 --> 00:41:24,605

Is

00:41:24,605 --> 00:41:25,835

it Carol, North Carolina?

00:41:25,835 --> 00:41:27,545

I don't know where

they're going, but yeah.

00:41:27,785 --> 00:41:28,145

Becky: Yeah.

00:41:28,145 --> 00:41:29,135

One of the Carolinas.

00:41:29,135 --> 00:41:29,285

Yeah.

00:41:29,315 --> 00:41:29,555

'cause it

00:41:29,625 --> 00:41:30,945

Francesca: South, Charleston.

00:41:30,975 --> 00:41:31,575

Charleston.

00:41:31,575 --> 00:41:32,295

They're going, yeah.

00:41:32,470 --> 00:41:32,760

Becky: Okay.

00:41:32,830 --> 00:41:34,095

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:41:34,095 --> 00:41:36,945

Like they do make it seem like

it, it does that scene when he

00:41:36,945 --> 00:41:38,800

comes back, it does set up the.

00:41:38,900 --> 00:41:42,350

The kind of plot that she is

going to have to make a choice,

00:41:42,650 --> 00:41:48,420

and between him and, and captain

Birmingham and that, yeah, I

00:41:48,420 --> 00:41:51,180

mean, I guess that's like pretty

intriguing and I'm just like, what?

00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,570

How, how is she going to reason

Captain Birmingham over this guy?

00:41:55,570 --> 00:41:56,980

Like, I don't know.

00:41:56,980 --> 00:41:57,130

I

00:41:57,230 --> 00:42:02,700

Francesca: In a way though, I almost

feel like this guy would also have

00:42:02,700 --> 00:42:04,920

like anger issues and violence.

00:42:04,950 --> 00:42:08,720

'cause he's acted a little shady as well.

00:42:08,820 --> 00:42:09,320

Becky: Oh, sure.

00:42:09,470 --> 00:42:09,760

Yeah.

00:42:10,015 --> 00:42:13,815

Francesca: he's so madly in love

with her, but the moment that says

00:42:14,060 --> 00:42:16,045

anything he doesn't like, it's on,

00:42:16,105 --> 00:42:16,555

With him.

00:42:16,555 --> 00:42:19,565

So like I there's more

safety in the known.

00:42:19,665 --> 00:42:22,485

Becky: Sure, because like I, you can

tell that he's a bit of an asshole.

00:42:22,515 --> 00:42:26,655

'cause isn't he not betroth to another

woman, but like, he's like, there's

00:42:26,655 --> 00:42:30,615

another woman in town that she's

like, oh, you should be with her.

00:42:30,915 --> 00:42:34,215

And like, I'm kind of like, if

you're stringing someone along,

00:42:34,305 --> 00:42:36,735

no way are you a stable person.

00:42:36,765 --> 00:42:37,815

Like you're a mess.

00:42:37,915 --> 00:42:39,655

That's just my own trauma coming into No.

00:42:39,655 --> 00:42:40,315

But yeah.

00:42:40,415 --> 00:42:41,285

Francesca: Yeah, definitely.

00:42:41,335 --> 00:42:44,365

If that is where we're going with that,

I think that could be interesting.

00:42:44,465 --> 00:42:44,885

Yeah.

00:42:45,105 --> 00:42:48,825

And at the same time once he said

that he was gonna sell the boat

00:42:48,825 --> 00:42:50,115

and he wasn't gonna come back.

00:42:50,115 --> 00:42:53,685

'cause I feel like for a second she

thought oh, you come back every year,

00:42:53,685 --> 00:42:55,875

maybe I can come and see my family

00:42:56,090 --> 00:42:56,510

Becky: Mm-hmm.

00:42:56,610 --> 00:42:58,740

Francesca: this was

gonna be their last trip.

00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:00,910

At the same time, I was like,

girl, you don't need them.

00:43:01,150 --> 00:43:02,740

You don't need to see that family.

00:43:02,980 --> 00:43:04,570

You don't need any of them.

00:43:04,670 --> 00:43:05,810

Forget they exist.

00:43:05,990 --> 00:43:08,780

Wherever you land, figure out your cocoon.

00:43:08,780 --> 00:43:10,760

Figure out your safety your things.

00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:11,390

I don't know.

00:43:11,490 --> 00:43:13,500

Becky: Yeah, I mean, I,

I see what you're saying.

00:43:13,530 --> 00:43:16,500

'cause she does have a horrible

family, but I'm kind of like, she

00:43:16,500 --> 00:43:18,150

should go where she wants to go.

00:43:18,390 --> 00:43:18,960

Clearly.

00:43:18,990 --> 00:43:23,470

She wants to stay like clearly, like

she like, and that's like kind of

00:43:23,470 --> 00:43:27,830

like what makes this whole moment more

stressful and scary is that like she.

00:43:27,930 --> 00:43:31,470

Is constantly getting the rug pulled

out from underneath her again and

00:43:31,470 --> 00:43:35,260

again for the rest of her of what

the rest of her life is gonna be

00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:35,690

like.

00:43:35,790 --> 00:43:38,310

She very casually finds out

that she's gonna have to go to

00:43:38,310 --> 00:43:40,290

another country like Jesus Christ.

00:43:40,390 --> 00:43:40,840

Francesca: Yeah.

00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:43,970

I know another country and basically.

00:43:44,070 --> 00:43:47,880

In a situation where, and also I

don't know what was necessarily the

00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:53,880

time period, 'cause that would've

been shortly after the independence.

00:43:54,070 --> 00:43:54,460

Becky: Right.

00:43:54,460 --> 00:43:54,820

Yeah.

00:43:54,985 --> 00:43:59,695

Francesca: What was the view that

the British people had at the time of

00:43:59,695 --> 00:44:01,705

the Americas and of the people.

00:44:01,705 --> 00:44:04,825

So like even just that probably was scary,

00:44:04,875 --> 00:44:06,015

Becky: totally, totally,

00:44:06,090 --> 00:44:09,100

Francesca: going to this

land of savages and.

00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,210

Who knows what's gonna happen to you

00:44:11,310 --> 00:44:12,900

as a British person too.

00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:14,260

So that would've been scary.

00:44:14,350 --> 00:44:16,370

Another layer of fear

00:44:16,430 --> 00:44:17,120

and trauma.

00:44:17,220 --> 00:44:18,060

Becky: Absolutely.

00:44:18,060 --> 00:44:22,470

And actually I will say for like

the history nerds, there is like a

00:44:22,470 --> 00:44:25,650

little interesting tidbit of this guy.

00:44:25,750 --> 00:44:27,550

Birmingham is a Yankee.

00:44:27,550 --> 00:44:31,810

He, I believe fought on, or

his father fought on the side

00:44:31,885 --> 00:44:33,540

Francesca: and then him as a child also.

00:44:33,545 --> 00:44:34,235

Becky: As a, okay.

00:44:34,235 --> 00:44:34,785

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:44:34,835 --> 00:44:38,885

And so I think they do make one comment of

like, but you're still coming to England.

00:44:38,885 --> 00:44:42,095

We all hate, like they, they like, I

feel like a lot of, like the English

00:44:42,095 --> 00:44:45,185

people were very like resentful of.

00:44:45,285 --> 00:44:48,525

Like anyone coming from America.

00:44:48,555 --> 00:44:52,965

So there was like kind of like a stigma,

like there still is when we travel abroad.

00:44:52,965 --> 00:44:53,895

I mean it's never gonna end.

00:44:53,995 --> 00:44:56,395

But this was a different, it was

because of a different type of stigma.

00:44:56,395 --> 00:44:59,605

'cause it's like they broke away from

us and on they're back and then you have

00:44:59,605 --> 00:45:03,655

kind of Birmingham kind of like this,

like capitalist being like, Hey man, I

00:45:03,685 --> 00:45:06,025

speak the language of money, you know?

00:45:06,025 --> 00:45:09,235

And he is like, I will trade with whoever

and, and I'm like, oh, that's like

00:45:09,235 --> 00:45:14,725

pretty interesting in showing that like

greed, people evolved beyond like what we

00:45:14,725 --> 00:45:17,125

think are, we should be patriotic about.

00:45:17,125 --> 00:45:19,705

Like, it's like always about

greed and it's always about money.

00:45:19,705 --> 00:45:22,715

And this guy is always gonna,

people are always gonna be after

00:45:22,815 --> 00:45:24,315

the, for themselves and stuff.

00:45:24,315 --> 00:45:28,115

And I'm like, this is, I, I bet

you that this is like more accurate

00:45:28,115 --> 00:45:33,155

to American history than maybe

what we were taught in school.

00:45:33,255 --> 00:45:34,965

Francesca: I definitely felt that too.

00:45:35,045 --> 00:45:35,465

Becky: Mm-hmm.

00:45:35,745 --> 00:45:40,185

Francesca: that whole scene of that whole

conversation that he had totally checks,

00:45:40,285 --> 00:45:40,745

Becky: Yeah.

00:45:40,865 --> 00:45:42,935

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

00:45:42,935 --> 00:45:47,145

And it's like, yeah, like it is like

this weird, he almost sounded like

00:45:47,145 --> 00:45:50,955

Gordon Gecko from Wall Street for

a second of just like money talks.

00:45:50,955 --> 00:45:55,025

Like it was just like this weird kind

of like cocky, like Great is good.

00:45:55,125 --> 00:45:55,425

Yeah.

00:45:55,425 --> 00:45:58,455

He was like, and I was just like,

God, they even existed back then.

00:45:58,455 --> 00:45:59,385

Jesus Christ.

00:45:59,535 --> 00:46:00,855

These finance bros.

00:46:00,955 --> 00:46:04,105

Francesca: He literally was, he may

have more in common with them than

00:46:04,205 --> 00:46:04,625

Becky: mm-hmm.

00:46:04,875 --> 00:46:06,645

Francesca: there's multiple touch points.

00:46:06,890 --> 00:46:08,240

Becky: Yeah, exactly.

00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:09,080

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:46:09,180 --> 00:46:09,450

Francesca: Yeah.

00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:10,370

So yeah.

00:46:10,420 --> 00:46:13,405

Other than that, there wasn't

anything necessarily retraumatizing.

00:46:13,505 --> 00:46:15,215

Worse than like the first two chapters.

00:46:15,215 --> 00:46:15,575

No,

00:46:15,575 --> 00:46:18,855

I think we are in safer

territory, at least for now.

00:46:18,855 --> 00:46:21,975

And I imagine going forward as well,

00:46:22,075 --> 00:46:26,495

because at some point he must

start to come around and see

00:46:26,495 --> 00:46:28,605

that he can be nice to his wife.

00:46:28,755 --> 00:46:30,855

But yeah, it was still a

little rough to read these two,

00:46:30,855 --> 00:46:32,795

but not as traumatizing for

00:46:32,930 --> 00:46:33,800

Becky: yeah, yeah.

00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,360

It wasn't as traumatizing.

00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:39,430

It was like kind of like, it felt like,

like it was, you know, when you like

00:46:39,550 --> 00:46:43,540

hurt yourself, like you, you know,

you're sore from after working out

00:46:43,540 --> 00:46:46,960

and then like you do a movement that

like, makes you feel how sore you are.

00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:48,250

Like that's what it felt like.

00:46:48,310 --> 00:46:52,030

It was like, yeah, it was like a me It

was, it was like a memory of the trauma

00:46:52,030 --> 00:46:56,470

and so, and it was like very pointed

and so it still felt very sensitive.

00:46:56,650 --> 00:46:58,360

I felt sensitive for her,

00:46:58,460 --> 00:47:00,890

but I'm really loving

that we're loving Heather.

00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:04,520

Like I, I do think that like she is.

00:47:04,620 --> 00:47:06,840

Is a very engaging character.

00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,860

I, I love that she's kind of like

written to the top of her intelligence

00:47:10,860 --> 00:47:12,870

as, as naive as she may be.

00:47:13,110 --> 00:47:14,040

And I know that like.

00:47:14,140 --> 00:47:17,440

Obviously my podcast is called

Too Stupid to Live, and it's

00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,830

based on char and like that term,

I'm assuming probably originates

00:47:21,830 --> 00:47:23,780

from her character in this book.

00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:25,250

She's really not as dumb

00:47:25,350 --> 00:47:28,890

as, as maybe the criticism says she is.

00:47:28,890 --> 00:47:33,200

She is like, I think the art of,

or, you know, being, being smart

00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,690

doesn't necessarily mean like actions.

00:47:35,690 --> 00:47:39,680

It's more of, of awareness and, and

she's highly intelligent and yeah.

00:47:39,685 --> 00:47:40,055

Mm-hmm.

00:47:40,205 --> 00:47:40,835

Francesca: Absolutely.

00:47:40,835 --> 00:47:41,345

I agree.

00:47:41,345 --> 00:47:45,815

I think that is probably one of the things

that has surprised me the most so far,

00:47:45,935 --> 00:47:46,355

Becky: Yeah.

00:47:46,475 --> 00:47:46,835

Yeah.

00:47:46,925 --> 00:47:51,345

Francesca: in these two chapters, is

the fact that she does have really high

00:47:51,525 --> 00:47:56,475

emotional intelligence and awareness,

and she is able to express it too,

00:47:56,775 --> 00:48:00,825

because she is having some of

those conversations as opposed

00:48:00,825 --> 00:48:03,645

to just repressing everything

and holding everything inside,

00:48:03,645 --> 00:48:06,705

which is something that we

do see a lot, especially in

00:48:06,705 --> 00:48:07,895

historical romance, heroines.

00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:08,380

Becky: Mm-hmm.

00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:13,500

Francesca: She, she is out here telling

us, the things that she doesn't like and

00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:14,080

all of that.

00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:15,150

So I like that.

00:48:15,210 --> 00:48:16,050

I really do.

00:48:16,050 --> 00:48:17,130

I really do like that.

00:48:17,310 --> 00:48:20,550

I think that definitely she

is the reason why this book.

00:48:20,650 --> 00:48:21,100

Between

00:48:21,100 --> 00:48:23,200

Heather and the author's writing because

00:48:23,230 --> 00:48:23,650