In this 'in case you missed it' episode Victoria and Natalie chat with Julie Green, author of Motherness, to explore the realities of parenting through autism both as a mum to an autistic son and as a woman who discovered her own autism later in life.
Biography
Julie M. Green is a Canadian writer whose work has been featured in the Washington Post, HuffPost, The Globe and Mail, Today’s Parent, and Chatelaine. She has appeared on CTV, BBC Radio, SiriusXM, and CBC Radio. She writes The Autistic Mom on Substack. For more information, visit JulieMGreen.ca.
Key Takeaways
Autism in girls and women can look very different from the traditional stereotypes. Julie explains that while boys can be identified through visible traits like lining up toys or having clear special interests, girls may channel their autistic traits into more socially acceptable interests
Many girls mask their differences by copying peers
The importance of seeing challenging behaviour as communication, not defiance.
How self-compassion and reframing past experiences can heal years of misunderstanding and self-blame
The need for schools and systems to replace punishment with understanding and co-regulation.
Life as both an autistic mom and the parent of an autistic son. We talk about
late diagnosis, what autism can look like in women and girls and navigating
challenging behavior.
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: Welcome to the podcast, Julie. It's great to have you here.
Julie Green: Thanks for having me.
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: So you are a mom to an autistic son, and you also discovered
later in life that you are also autistic. Can you start by telling us what led
you to consider that you might be autistic?
Julie Green: Oh my.
When I say it was a process, it took. Almost exactly 10 years, a very long
time. So needless to say, ooh, going back when my son was diagnosed at three I
didn't know much about autism generally, let alone. Autism in girls and women
and how that could look different. So it was very much a process.
Julie Green: The
there. It wasn't necessarily [:
really think you had Temple Grandin at that point. It was just, it was such a
learning curve just to learn about it with my son. And then. Every now and
then, I was just struck by these similarities, thinking, oh I was really
sensitive with clothing and oh, I was really certain noises and, the need for
routine.
Julie Green: So there
were some similarities with my son, but in a lot of respects, he was very much
the typical. Image that we have of a little boy, lining up the Thomas trains.
And that just did not really fit because I was fairly social. All these sort of
things. And then I think ultimately, I became involved in it was like the
blogging sphere back then, and I came across, I was writing about parenting and
I started to write about autism and our experiences, but I eventually did come
nd got chatting with her and [:
okay, so this is this looks very different and.
Julie Green: She and
I were very similar, and that gradually led me to think, okay maybe I am also
autistic. And then again, took a little while longer for me to actually decide
to pursue being assessed. So at the time, even here in Canada, the wait list
wasn't that bad. I waited maybe a year through my GP and it was through our
oip, which I'm in Ontario, so our province has the equivalent of the NHS.
Julie Green: I
didn't, initially, I was thinking, oh, do I wanna go through with this and, pay
thousands of dollars and for what? Even if I am diagnosed, just, it was a lot
of, it was a long process, as I say, 10 years till it really fully clicked. It
clicked and then, officially got the diagnosis.
Julie Green: So I.
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: Did it help you when you looked back at past events? Did it
make more [:
Julie Green: Oh, enormously. 'cause I think a lot of people are like, why do this? I was 44, so
why do this? It's not as though you're going to really qualify for any. Any funding or any supports, but I just think on a personal level, it reframes so much of you. You go through this process and it can take months if not years.
Julie Green: I, there
are still moments where you're, there are these realizations that, oh, this
thing happened in the past and oh, that wasn't. Because I was difficult or too
sensitive or too demanding or, whatever other names people call you and you
internalize a lot of this. Baggage and a lot of these other labels, I mean our
kids do too.
Julie Green: This is
why I think it's important for kids to, to understand that they're wired
differently as opposed to, my son was coming home and going, oh, I'm bad, and
e kids will pick up on that, [:
those differences and people will label you with other things. And so I grew up
internalizing a lot of these other labels, so having that new information.
Julie Green: Just
helped me have more compassion and understanding. And just like this process of
getting to know yourself in a different way, even in my forties. Doing a lot of
repair work, I think. And yeah just reframing a lot of the narratives that I
had grown up thinking these things were personality flaws.
Julie Green: And also
just thinking, why the heck am I like that? Why do I need so much recovery
time? Why can't I do the things other people can do so easily? Why do I have
all this social confusion? So it just allows this framework to, to help you
understand yourself and, I don't think you can Yeah.
Julie Green: Put to
find a point on that. It's, it makes a radical difference at any age, but I. I
think it's worthwhile. I've had people come to me now and say I think a woman
in her seventies [:
saying, yeah, this is finally occurring to me. And I don't think it's, I don't
think there's a time limit on that if it helps you reappraise yourself and feel
better about yourself.
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: So would say your life has changed since your diagnosis?
Julie Green: Yeah.
Oh, absolutely.
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: I've had a son and a daughter just go through the process
son's younger and his struggles were very apparent, and when I was given a book
by a pediatrician, when he was waiting for assessment, I looked down the
checklist and I was like, oh, that's what this is.
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: But I didn't have the same revelation with my daughter when
we were going through the process. Uh, you mentioned lining up the toys, like
Thomas the tank engine, my son lined up cars But she didn't and he had delayed
speech and she had very advanced speech.
Julie Green: I mean,
it's a spectrum, but people still don't quite grasp it. I think so. Even within
there are things that my son [:
was. Doing wasn't doing. there's still just so much difference. And you know,
some girls do present more in that typical way, , but other girls do not.
Julie Green: And I
think it's been this long process. I remember seeing, I think it was the
National Autistic Society in the UK that had a very good presentation. I can't
even remember who, who did it. But, , just the. the. variability in girls and
what it looks like. So, you know, you'll still see things like. social
difficulties, but it will look very, very, very different.
Julie Green: You'll
see the, the sensory issues you'll see it's same things, but manifesting in
different ways. And of course, this is before anyone knew about masking that a
lot of, not all girls and not all boys, but some people do. Have this ability
to camouflage and get by. So it's a lot harder, for those people to be
identified. But, you looking back, I had collections of things and I had things
sn't lining up trains, but I [:
cousin, I adored her. I copied her again in all respects.
Julie Green: But it
was like she couldn't touch certain things in my room. And everything had to be
like this. I'd have these special interests, but they were things that are very
typical and expected in girls, you know, interest in animals and psychology.
And not necessarily trains or numbers or, but they were, things that were,
slipped under the radar and I was extremely shy but very, very quiet, So
because I wasn't a problem at school again.
Julie Green: This is
just, you are just shy. I was also an only child, so lot of things were
excused. A lot of the sort of spoiled behaviors that I, I guess would've been
things with me being very, like reacting and having emotions for changes and
rituals and that [:
lot of those things were, excused or blamed on me being an only child.
Julie Green: So it's
interesting to see with hindsight, but very different to my son who would have
a lot of like very big meltdowns, big behaviors. Um, whereas with me, I'd often
get sick. I would internalize a lot and If I had been socializing for any
amount of time or all the sensory overload, I would just, the end result would
be like a shutdown or I would just get very ill, so it was treated very
differently.
Julie Green: So there
was no way back then for people, I guess, to know that this was. Autism
manifesting. It was just all these other things. It was shyness and it was
okay. She has migraines from a very young age,
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: That's interesting. My daughter struggles with migraines.
Julie Green: I think
now they've, in some cases there is a corelation
Julie Green: I hear
potentially that they, they are adding elements to the DSM. So, you know, going
forward when [:
they are aware of things like masking. They are aware potentially of the
different ways that this can manifest in some
Julie Green: girls,
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: It's really good that people are recognizing it. Her school
that she moved to were actually very good, at identifying , that she was
masking heavily.
Julie Green:
Especially with. Girls and women, it's often manifesting in, anxiety,
depression, issues, which I had, but it never really told the full story. You
know, why this disabling anxiety? Well, it's sort of tied to something.
Something bigger. and again, all , the sensory issues.
Julie Green: When you
combine all these different
Julie Green: elements
and you're bigger picture, you can see that yes. It's, it is tied to something
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: now,
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: you've written a book, Motherness,
Julie Green: there it
is. It's out in the uk, on the
Julie Green: 23rd of
October, and the audio book
Julie Green: is now
out as well.
Julie Green: The
structure of the book, starts from , my pregnancy through to the time when my
son is 13. So it's a , big span of what I went through as a parent,
he, the struggles, the highs [:
and lows, and there's a lot of funny stuff in it as well.
Julie Green: It's not
all doom and gloom, but basically all the, you know, trying to get
accommodations, all the highs and lows with him, but also casting my mind back
at how this manifested for me. Um, So each. Chapter is, is kind of on a
different topic. So there'll be one chapter that's about like issues, one about
meltdowns or shutdowns, one about like eating, basically all the, all the,
autism related topics and just how it's kind of a compare and contrast of what
he was going through as a child versus going back to some of my childhood and
early adulthood and how that looked for me. So it's sort of goes back and forth
and there's a little bit of, um, reporting and some studies in there just for
some, some context, but it's definitely a memoir. When I was diagnosed, as I
all this processing to make [:
sense of things that had happened and looking in the rear view mirror and
going, okay, what well, how does that look for me?
Julie Green: And
thinking of all these different events and relationships that happened. So I
was, I was sort of writing things down and mulling over things, and I'd also
written a lot about parenting anyway. I haven't seen any any books deal with
parenting. When you're also autistic. So I've seen memoirs by women, late
diagnosed women.
Julie Green: I've
seen a lot of memoirs from parents who aren't autistic. and I think also just
as a parent, remembering all those early years and how isolating it was just
feeling very confused and very alone through the whole process and thinking. I
guess you kind of write the book that you wish you had, that's pretty much what
I ended up doing. In processing this, I thought, well, maybe, obviously if this
is [:
it'll, it'll really land with other mothers who. Whether they're autistic or
not, but just, , helping them feel seen, do feel very alone. And I remember my
son had a lot of struggles with, um, being regulated, as I said, a lot of
aggressive meltdowns. And even within the autism community, I felt like there
were things that were taboo and that weren't really talked about, and we felt
very, very cut off. Even among people we knew in the autistic community who
maybe their kids weren't having similar behaviors.
Julie Green: So the
long and short of why I I wrote it initially to process what I was going
through, but then I think when you step back and you think actually there's. A
bigger story here that will probably land with other people and hopefully help
them. And so far it's been strange because it's such a, it's such an intimate
u're obviously alone, you're [:
realize objectively that it's going to be in the world, but it still doesn't
quite seem real until people are messaging you . It's very strange. So I, I'm
glad it's there, but it's also a bit surreal to know that
Julie Green: so much
of my life and our lives are in there, but there's also a lot that I've left
out for personal reasons. but it is
Julie Green:
gratifying
Julie Green: to know
that it is out there and, and hopefully helping other parents and women
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: I'm sure it sounds like a book that is gonna help a lot of
people.
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: Do you find that being autistic affects how you parent your
child? I.
Julie Green: I do
feel like there's this other level of connection where I, I do really get my
son in a way that other people don't I will instinctively know like, well, of
course he's not going to eat that. Of course we've gotta get out of this room,
or I've gotta make these changes or.
Julie Green: I know
how to shop And my mom will say, well, I bought him this, this top, it's really
t no, That's not gonna work. [:
So I feel like I, I do have this natural empathy and I can gauge certain things
and be on the same wavelength as him sometimes, but at the same, the same time,
that can also be a problem because we, we both. I do struggle with, with having
things a certain way these routines, and if our sensory issues collide in a and
being really loud and or certain things that trigger me aren't the things that
trigger him. It can, we can actually really clash. Sometimes it's very useful
because I can model and say, okay, I need to go and lie down.
Julie Green: Now
this, I'm struggling with this, I can model that in a very healthy way and I
can model how to advocate. So I I try to, and I can also say, oh, You know,
this is great. You have this ability and you know, this comes from mom. This
comes from dad, but it al also, at times it's really difficult because as a
parent, I'm the one who's [:
you know, supposed to put my needs on the back burner for his needs. But at
times if I'm struggling and I'm kind of shutting down, I'm very blessed to have
my husband take over
Julie Green: I'm
lucky too have a partner who is very accommodating and who also is very
different. And , my partner has ADHD, so we very much compliment each other.
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: That sounds like a good partnership there.
Julie Green: Just,
happened that way. I think people are drawn to certain people.
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: Is there anything that you wish people understood more about
autism?
Julie Green:
Something that gets me. It's just a peeve, I Guess. And I I think it is kind of
changing, but I think the media has always been very simplistic in its
portrayal that it's one or the other. It's this binary. It's either a great
tragedy, and something to be overcome, or a superpower and it's a savant, you
is somewhere in the middle. [:
and autism generally is, is not painted as this thing. You know, people are
very nuanced. It's, and bad at the same time. I mean, it's, it's funny, it's
hard. It's all in one day, sometimes. . It's just a very human experience and I
find it very frustrating and reductive to see kind of these, this binary that
it's one or the other. but I think the more people tune into lived experiences
to people and, and get to know people as opposed to just these stereotypes,
that we can
Julie Green:
hopefully move
Julie Green: away
from
Julie Green: that.
Because every time I see those sort of
Julie Green:
portrayals and it's very
Julie Green:
annoying.
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: Yeah. I would agree. Yeah.
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: And so what's one change you would like to see in the world
to make it more inclusive for neurodivergent families?
Julie Green: This one
of on a personal level. This [:
something that has really struck me and really been difficult for us over the
years. Um, It's because my son is somebody who really struggles to regulate. I
mean, I do as well, but it was showing up for me differently.
Julie Green: It
wasn't showing up as big behaviors in school. But at least for my son, that has
always been treated as something requiring discipline and. By extension, you're
a bad parent. , You're not disciplining. and it was always with consequences
And suspensions and just in ways that were actually not helpful. For my son. ,
Rather than being, being treated with compassion or co-regulation, I think
people, again, it's starting to change. I think there is a little bit more
Julie Green:
education about
Julie Green: this
piece, but I think in effect it's still not really happening
Julie Green: in
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: Yeah, [:
you on this
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: one.
Julie Green:
basically come and pick
Julie Green: pick up
your child.
Julie Green: Even
when I've had these discussions and said, well, if you, suspend my son, but
this is not like a learning experience for him. You are punishing his
disability , and you're not helping him grow and you're not doing the right
things.
Julie Green: And
instead again you're, you're contributing to this feeling of shame. He's going
to have like, oh, I'm being punished. yeah. You know, the way he is rather than
actually supporting him and giving him the tools that he needs to develop from
there. And unfortunately, I do feel like, it's such a massive issue, like
school attendance and, but parents are in such.
Julie Green: A hard
position, when you have kids who are struggling with behaviors, being treated
in this way and kids are, are not attending and it's just not handled in the
way, I feel punished or, you [:
know, or, then kids are
Julie Green: refusing
to attend. So we're, we're just not creating the spaces. Yeah. And
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: Natalie's experienced so much of that, didn't you When your
son was at mainstream school? Yeah. With the suspensions, the phone calls, and
you had a young baby you were trying to manage. Remember how difficult it was
and the judgment. I'll let you speak for yourself in a minute. It's alright.
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: But our sons are, they're three years apart. Yeah. But they
were at the same school at the time and my son tends to internalize his
behaviors. So they both have autism diagnosis and Natalie's son has ADHD as
well. And his behavior was more explosive or is more explosive. Whereas my
son's internalized And people. I could see the different reactions had. Mm-hmm.
And the causes for a lot of these reactions are the same. They're just playing
out really differently. This child isn't naughty And This child is, good.
Mm-hmm. They're both really struggling with the same things.
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: And it was so hard for you, wasn't it particularly? yeah.
Awful, Awful experience.
Julie Green: Even as
Julie Green: Parents,
it's hard , if you see [:
instance, um, having a panic attack or self-injuring or internalizing that, oh
it's, it's so much easier to feel sympathy for them and to feel compassion and
to co-regulate. Whereas if someone's spitting or kicking or, you know, even as
a parent, that can be difficult to feel sympathy and realize the same things
are going on. It's just coming out in a different way.
Julie Green: And as
parents, I feel like we're cut off, we're blamed, we're shamed.
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: Yeah. I think definitely more education's needed around,
around that because we need to teach the other children how to react as well.
And if we're telling off those kids and making them seem like they're bad, then
it gives that impression to the other children too,
Julie Green: and that
stuff really lingers as well. You know, my son just turned 17 and I feel like
ma. He's come a long way and [:
that's still very much affecting how he feels about himself.
Julie Green: He will
occasionally still get a suspension and I mean, I feel like I'm an old hand at
advocating now and I have a good relationship with school. But I will say,
look. I know feel you have to suspend him. I respectfully disagree. He's not a
typical kid, he's not gonna process this and go, oh, okay, I guess I better
change my behavior next time. But until the systems higher up, learn different
ways and stop treating this like disciplinary issues. Sometimes I can advocate
and get my point across and make some headway and other times you are just
butting up against a bigger system that says, Nope, this is the rule., This is
how we do things, , sometimes even penalized for
Julie Green: what are
social misunderstandings or social gaps. So rather than waiting for the calm
in a, well, you did this so [:
punishment. So yeah, it's very maddening, but that's more of a personal level
because it's true.
Julie Green: Not all
kids are explosive, reading the raw screen, , kids do well if they can , and
reading. His ideas about children who do present in explosive ways is such a
game changer. So any
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: Yeah.
Julie Green: who
haven't go find Ross Green?
Julie Green: Not a
relation. However, I really, respect his work and that was for me as a parent.
I mean, it was many years ago that I landed on that, but that was a real game
changer in how I viewed. Often, it really alienated me from my son as well.
It's very hard to stay connected. When your kids are explosive and they're,
they're lashing out at you, it can be really
Julie Green: hard not
to take that personally.
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: Yeah, Hundred percent. Well, thank you ever so much for
coming on the podcast with us today, Julie. where can listeners go to connect
with you and learn more about your book?
Julie Green: The book
everywhere. I also write, a [:
Substack. Called the autistic mom, which is free to subscribe to. I post every
Tuesday on various topics, and, I have a website, , that features various
interviews as well.
Victoria Bennion and Natalie
Tealdi: Fantastic. We'll make sure that we put links to all of those
in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on
