For most corporate escapees, networking and sales feel like the biggest hurdles to building a solo business. With hundreds of LinkedIn connections and decades of contacts, it’s easy to feel overwhelmed—or worse, to avoid networking altogether.

Enter David Ackert—author of The Short List and winner of the 2025 Non-Fiction Book Award. David has spent 20+ years helping professionals grow their books of business and has distilled his research into a simple, proven framework that removes the guesswork from networking.

In this episode, David shares how to replace random outreach with a focused, confidence-building system that actually drives results.

What You’ll Learn:

• Why a bloated network isn’t useful—and how to focus on the 9–35 relationships that matter most
• The three categories every escapee needs: prospects, clients, and connectors
• How to re-engage dormant ties for new opportunities
• The “14 interactions” rule and why most people quit too soon
• Why doing structured free work can accelerate your first paying clients
• How GenXers’ natural problem-solving and “be helpful” mindset is a superpower in building trust
• Why confidence isn’t faked—it grows naturally from following a consistent system

About David Ackert

David is the President of Ackert Inc., creator of the PipelinePlus Tracker app, and author of The Short List. He has dedicated his career to helping professionals simplify business development through intentional, value-driven relationships.

👉 Connect with David:

• Website: pipelineplus.com

• LinkedIn: David Ackert

👉 Resources:

• Get your copy of The Short List wherever books are sold

Hi David, welcome to the Corporate Escapee Podcast.

Hey Brett, thanks for having me.

No, my pleasure. And I've definitely been looking forward to this conversation as I was telling you offline. When I get recommendations about a book covering from multiple people that don't know each other, that means it's going to be a must read. And as I was also telling you offline, folks, we'll get into this, promise. You get the honor of being both the e-book and also the hard copy. Because if I enjoy the e-book and I know I need to make notes, I'll buy the hard copy for my use.

Wanted to say that I'm a huge fan of what you've written and I thought it just made absolute sense to get you out of the podcast. So maybe to kick us off, maybe just share with the audience a little bit about your background, what you're working on today, and then we'll dive in.

Sure, sounds good. Well, I've been in the business of helping accelerate growth primarily for professional services firms for over 20 years now. And usually what that means is that there's a certain archetype of professional who is technically proficient. So think consultants or lawyers or engineers or accountants.

And they get to a certain stage in their career and then they have to learn entrepreneurship because they've got to build a book of business and start bringing in their clients. And they certainly didn't learn any of those things when they got their MBA or when they went to law school or what have you. So that's where we come in is the company that we've built sort of fills in some of those soft skills that end up becoming really critical when you get to that stage of growth. And I'm also the author of The Short List, which you alluded to, which is a book that came out in January.

Congrats, that's awesome.

Yeah. And now I think our listeners will know exactly why you're on the podcast. they're, I mean, most of our folks are 20 plus years in corporate, professional and heading down a solo route, right? Which could be consulting. could be fractional leadership, but everything it's basically a solo business. And I grew up kind of in the go-to-market space and had some background with sales, but until I got into professional service, as an actually held the cell service, it's different, right? Coaching and training versus actually doing it.

And honestly, this is one of the two challenges that I hear most from current escapees and potential escapees is networking and sales, right? It's just it's not comfortable and it can be almost a four letter word to some folks. But that's what I enjoyed about your book. You didn't over engineer it and you broke it down into concepts that made sense. So so I thought, like I said, it made sense to have you come on and kind of share with us.

Yeah.

How would you think about this if you were starting over knowing everything you know now and you're gonna be a solo business owner for the first time? How would you get started?

Yeah. Well, I think this methodology works well for that audience. Do you know, I wrote this book because I wanted to create a very simple framework for people to follow. think that sales, networking, business development, all of these things can seem overwhelming, especially for those who, you know, don't do that for a living and have to suddenly learn it, especially maybe a little later in their careers. So, the, idea here is simply this, do know, if you find yourself in a

in a place where you're either thinking of going out on your own or you're already out on your own. It can be really daunting. Like, where do I start? And on the one hand, you can reflect on your life and think, wow, I actually know too many people, right? I've got my 500 plus LinkedIn connections and I've got all these names in my phone and I haven't even talked to lot of these people in a long time. And then there's other people who potentially could help me. But how do I even start a conversation with them? I don't want to seem needy or desperate. If anything, I kind of want to posture like

Yeah, I'm out of my own now. should give me a call if you ever need my help, right? You want to almost come to the table with some swagger. So this can be a particularly daunting situation to find yourself in. And the concept behind the shortlist is that actually it's a lot more manageable than you think because those 500 plus connections on LinkedIn are not useful to you from a business development perspective. And this is what you're in the business of now. You are in business development. You're going to develop a business.

Right? And so what you want to do is start practicing discernment. You want to start putting up filters. And so for instance, you could put a filter up on your network that starts to identify, OK, who are the people with the most influence to help me accomplish my goal? Now, of course, that is assuming you have a goal. So first, get really clear on what your SMART goal is, right? Specific, measurable, achievable, realistic, time-bound. So.

carve that out for yourself, like write it down. What is my smart goal? And then you start thinking about, who in my network have the most influence to help me get to my goal? Because I can't get there alone. I'm going to need other people. And these are the people that you start putting on your short list. Now, the research behind the short list comes from data that we've pulled out of our app. We've had an app in the marketplace for about a decade now.

And you would think of it as a CRM light. It's called Pipeline Plus Tracker, and people use it to track their shortlists, essentially. And because we've had so many users over this period of time, we have millions of data points now, and we've been able to identify what a productive shortlist looks like. Because the users who report that they're actually getting business fall into one category, and then there's everybody else.

So the most successful users we've found, and these are people who are, again, technicians. They have jobs. They're not great at sales, but they're applying these principles. They have between nine and 35 people on their short list. So we find that those who have fewer than nine on their short list have too few at bats. They've got too many exits and too many eggs in too few baskets, right? And so you call your three, four friends who could have helped, and none of them can help right now, and you're stuck.

So you never want to have a number that's too small, but those who have more than 35 get overwhelmed. That's a lot of people that you want to have lunch with and you got to check in with, and you've got to be sending some sort of value add communication to and finding out what they're doing. Like that becomes too much. So nine to 35 we found is that sweet spot among our successful user base. The next thing that we find is that a successful shortlist is diversified. So there are three relationship categories.

There's prospects. These are people who could hire you or could send you work. There's clients, people who are sending you work or maybe are already engaging you for projects. And then there's connectors. And connectors are people who can either connect you to ideas or introductions or maybe provide advice, but they're not prospects. There's a distinction there, right? So they're the people that you would turn to for maybe some mentorship, somebody who's already launched their

solo business in the same category that you're interested in and is willing to sit down and have lunch with you and have you pick their brain. Or maybe that's somebody who seems to know everybody and is a great like networker and you want to kind of hang out with them and maybe get the benefit of the fact that they can all say, Brett, know who you should meet? You should meet Joe, right? And then they make that connection for you. So you've got these three categories.

And typically, know, start with just a third, third, a third, but you may find that you happen to know more connectors than you know clients or you happen to know more prospect. It's OK. It doesn't matter. The point is that you just want to make sure that all three categories are represented. So if you create your shortlist and you think to yourself, I actually have any connectors, that's a great insight because that's what you want to now go and add to this shortlist. They all play a really critical.

That's interesting. Yeah. So thinking back to folks that are just exiting, right? Part of the overwhelm is I don't have any clients, right? So I've got to figure out prospects and that's new and connectors. And one of the big insights and ahas from your book for me was thinking about the list differently, right? Cause we think about networking and the value, but thinking about a connector different than a prospect. makes total sense when I read it. I'm like, no kidding.

But I wasn't doing that. I didn't think of it that way. And it just makes sense because you're going to have a different conversation with those folks. so how do you adjust it? And I'm guessing you're really right. The ideal is no more than 35. But when you're just getting started, is it a broader reach? Right. So do you? OK.

It might be, you know, I would say that's probably not your short list. You're on the road to curating a short list, but sure, if you want to start by just brainstorming anybody with a pulse who might be able to help you, then make that list. And if it's more than 35, great, but you are going to find that there are some people who are willing to help. And those were not, you're going to find that some people are givers and some people are takers. You're going to find that some people, were you thought they were your friend. And then when you reached out and you're no longer.

a corporate executive, they are not taking your calls. yeah, yeah. And it's OK. Look, everybody is going to do what they're going to do. But this is where you are really working your way to distilling this curated list and enabling a focus, really like a purposeful approach to building this book of business. I want to parenthetically refer to one thing here because you said, just left corporate. I don't have any clients.

You're not useful anymore.

That's where you want to start doing free work. Reach out to somebody who would be a great logo to put on your website or to talk about in a pitch. And just tell them, hey, I'd like to do a complimentary project for you, limited scope, but give me try. Give me a chance, right? Voila, you've got a client. They don't have to be paying you. They just have to be someone who can now be a reference and someone that you can ultimately

You learn through, there's gonna be a lot of things that you're kind of figuring out on that first project. And so just control the scope, right? Don't be like, okay, it's indentured servitude for the next nine months. Give them like a short, small project for one or two months that gives them a taste of how great it is to work with you. And then you get to one or two months and you say, okay, we've reached the end of this smaller project. I see nine other things I could do for your organization. Would you like to continue at my rack rate? Right? And now, voila, you are on your road.

Right.

to having your first paying client. But that's another mistake we often see people make is that they sort of envision, well, I want to be working with Fortune 500 companies, or I want to be working with the middle market, or whatever it is. It's like, you've got to earn your way to that. No one's going to take a risk on someone who hasn't already done this work with at least one other organization that kind of looks like

Yeah, no, I think that's, that's really good advice. Cause you'll hear others say, don't do anything for free. Right. I'm like, I don't know. And when you're trying to get started, well, I technically it's not free to your point. You're going to get a referral and or a testimonial from it in exchange for the work. Plus you're going to figure out, this the type of work I want to do? Right. Coming out of corporate where it's this all of a you're on your own. mean, my journey over five years, I went from consulting to fractional leadership, to advisory, to coaching, to now doing this corporate escapee. Right. It, took me a while.

Exactly right.

And I tell people all the time, part of, I could go back in time, I was, when I was just looking for the consulting, I was only looking for the six figure deals, right? Then I was looking for fractional leader. I was only looking for the six figure potential fractional deals. And I left so much on the table that could have developed if I would have taken that route, right? Free or trial or test, or I'll do some analysis for you for free. So no, I'm, I'm a hundred percent on board with, with you on that hindsight, 2020. would have definitely started with that.

Yeah.

for all of us. Well, and I just want to underscore something you said. It's not for free. You never want to give away something for nothing. That never feels good for you, right? And it is easy. I've been in situations where I felt a little desperate and I wanted to get into a new market or whatever, and I have negotiated poorly on my own behalf. But make it really clear. Look, this is going to be a two month project. At the end of the two month project, we're going to do a case study, or you're going to write a great testimonial, or I'm going to ask you for three referrals.

you

to other companies in your network who might use this. Or we're going to talk about phase two, which is $100,000 engagement or whatever. But you're making it really easy for them to say yes to phase one.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

So the next thing that we learned from this data was that it took our successful users 14 interactions on average between first contact and first contract. So you've got your short list, great. You've categorized them into, know, okay, these are high influence clients, prospects, connectors. Now what do I do with these people? Well, you've got to have

an average of 14 interactions before they are going to hire you. Now I said average, so it could be fewer, but for some it might be more. And what we found is that those users in our database who were not successful would give up after their first outreach that wasn't responded to. So they go out into the marketplace with very thin skin and they're like, hey, I've just left my job, but good news, I've started David Ackert.

consulting and you know, would really love to talk to you about maybe doing a project sometime and then there's crickets and They take their toys and they go home Right But instead what you want to bear in mind is that these are busy people. None of this is personal These are not your friends if you remember friend is not a category You've got prospects you've got clients and you've got connectors None of them are your friends so they can blow you off without you taking offense. There's different rules here just as when you were

Yeah, it makes...

in your job, vendors were reaching out to you and you got to blow them off. And if they take personally, that's on them. But if they catch you at just the right time and you've got that need, you'd respond and be like, Hey, actually good timing. I'd like a proposal. So you've got to earn your way to that moment. And usually it takes about 14 interactions on average. Now the interaction might be something like they post something on LinkedIn and you make a comment and they make a comment on your comment. That's an interaction. It counts, or it might be something like

praise.

Hey, I'm going to be in the neighborhood. Would love to just grab a quick drink after work and check in and see how things are going. And they're like, yeah, no problem. And you have a quick drink. That's a great interaction. And it might be even worth more than the LinkedIn back and forth. But ultimately, what you're doing is you need to start logging how many interactions you are clocking. Because in your imagination, you will think there are more than there have been. You'll be like, man, I reached out to you, I don't know, like a dozen times. But you actually counted it was three. Right?

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, our math in the head never works. I'm always over exaggerating and those type 100 % right.

And each one just felt like a lot.

Exactly, exactly, because it's so weighted for us. But really, it's just the numbers game that we're playing. And the last piece of data that we found that was really relevant here was that the cadence of our most successful users was outreach every four to six weeks. But the average user was reaching out every three to six months. So their sales cycle was so long, right? And that also gives you this wonky math.

Because if it's like, I've reached out to you three times over the course of a year, it feels like I've been reaching out to you for a year. Like you start to get a really dramatic narrative going here. When in fact, you're three out of 14, you're barely getting started.

That's true. But my guess is the data also shows not too frequent, right? Because if you over ambush them with communications, you've got to find that right balance,

Well, every four to six weeks might feel like ambushing for some. Some people might be like, yeah, that's stalking. That's way too aggressive. Now here's the key. It has to be a value added communication. So it can't be, hey, I checked in with you six weeks ago to see if you would be willing to engage me for a project and I didn't hear from you. What gives? How about now? That is a terrible communication. Like, who wants to get that email, right? But if it's you ignore the last time that they blew you off, you just ignore it like it didn't happen. You don't acknowledge it.

Okay.

Got it.

Don't be like, seems like you've been awfully busy anyway. Like none of that. Don't get into that drama. All you wanna do is think of another way to add value. So in the short list on page 167, I list out 40 different things that you can do to add value as you are taking this relationship through these seven stages of engagement, from just getting them to acknowledge you exist, all the way to expanding that relationship.

And so you'll never run out of ammo here. You're to have all kinds of things that you can reach out with. But it's things like congratulating them on a promotion, or it could be something like, I was reading this article and I thought you might find it interesting. Let me know what you think. Or it could be something like, I'm going to be in the neighborhood. Let's grab a drink or let's get lunch. Or it might be something like, hey, I just finished a project for two months with this other company. They're actually going to move into phase two now. I'm really excited. And I learned these three things that I want to share with you. Let me know when you're free.

Or it could be something like, hey, I saw on LinkedIn that you're giving a talk at this conference. That's so cool. That's a really interesting topic for me. I've got a few thoughts that I'd like to share with you before you take the stage. Might be helpful as you're thinking through it. These are all just, you're just being helpful. You are just the wellspring of helpfulness. No one minds getting an email or a voicemail or a text or however you like to do this, where the person is always being helpful with no agenda. So if you can remove your agenda from it and just trust that,

Great.

After 14 of these interactions, you're going to find opportunities to talk a little bit about what you're doing, but mostly you're focused on helping them. At some point, they're like, by the way, I need your help. Like, the timing is right now, and you've stayed top of mind in a way that is not obnoxious, in a way that is serving my interests. Of course I'm going to put you first when it comes time for me to use somebody who has your expertise.

Right.

And you're, developing your relationship, right? Even if it's slowly and quietly, right. And not, I mean, at the end of the day, that's what you want is to not be transactional as much as more relationship, even though they may not be your friends, but you know, if we have any back and forth, I'm going to get to know you. Right. And it's going to be much more comfortable to do business or have asks. Once you get to know somebody versus like you and I just meeting for the first time and saying, Hey, David, why don't you, I could sell you the, right. It's just.

That would be uncomfortable. You may have a need and it may work, but yeah, I found, I don't want to say the slow game, but the development game, right? It makes sense. And I think people are more comfortable developing relationships than sales tactics.

It worked.

Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, again, you're not developing a friendship per se. I think that that's a naive notion. But you are developing a trust ship, right? Where there's mutual trust now. They've come to trust you enough that they would bet on you as a solution provider to a need that they have.

Yeah.

And a lot of that is through these various means of helpfulness that you have brought to the table and that you also signal them you're not just going to go away if they don't respond to your email. You're already showing them that you're reliable. You're showing them that you're consistent. You're showing them that you know how to be helpful. You're showing them that you don't take things personally like a four-year-old. These are all the qualifications that they're looking for when it comes time for them to bring on a consultant or a fractional this or what have you.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's so interesting. And it makes total sense too, because the one thing I talk a lot about where if you're applying for a job, especially as a Gen Xer, you're going to have 500 people at minimum also applying for that job. So you're competing against a bunch of other folks. What I'm finding a lot in the solo world is you're one-on-one with yourself or the do nothing, right? So it's not like you have to outmaneuver, outsell some other consultant that's coming in. Most of the time,

you're just developing this relationship so you can you can do the work and I always tell people I like my odds better that if I'm competing against myself versus 500 plus other people as you go through the process and so being able you don't have to I know it's it's so when you're new it's hard to be patient because you want that first deal and you just you get aggressive or over I'm not sure where I was going with that but the

Yeah.

The fact is a lot of time you don't competition can factor in, these cases it's really like said, they do nothing. The owner's not going to do anything or they're going to end up working with you.

Well, actually, I think you're making a really astute point here because you're talking about how our biggest enemy when we're in a solo environment is not the competition, it's ourselves. And the fact that we'll talk ourselves out of that 13th outreach, because there've already been 12, or we'll talk ourselves into a narrative that makes us the victim because we're not getting work and we've been unemployed for six months, or we'll talk ourselves into, you know,

after the first project or two, they push back on our fees and we buckle too easily. And now we're working for less money than we want, right? These are where we are our own worst enemy because there's no one there to kind of check it.

Right. So it's that 100 % guilty as charged. And again, it takes time to get better and more confident. I tell people all the time when you get to that place where you're comfortable doing it and you're, you're, you don't need this deal, right. In order to hit your quarter or whatever your goals are. It's funny how people want to work with you more, right. When you're like, right. You're not as I'm sure it's psychological and I knew you guys probably studied this a bit, but

Yes.

It's real right when you're not pushing And more just I don't say aloof isn't the right word but more indifferent that hey if it's if we can work together Fantastic, I think I can help but if not, I completely understand people like really do you really understand right versus if you're in a sales environment and corporate It's you got to close that next deal. I'm moving on to the next one if it doesn't look like it's it's a good fit. So it's

It's a different world, but you're right, it comes back to not beating yourselves.

Confidence is something that's very difficult to fake. Real confidence. You can act like you've got swagger. You can act like it didn't matter, all of that. But when you've really gotten there, it shows up for you when you don't need it anymore.

Yes.

I think that's exactly right. Yeah, I know.

Does that make sense? Do you know it's like real confidence is because you're successful and you know it and you've got nothing to prove to anybody.

And you can, and that's what I tell people when they go on this journey. for six months, you should see some success. Maybe your first client or two, you know, rarely does it happen right out of the box, but it does, but back to your averages at the end of the first year.

Mm-hmm.

I found myself on a path to replacing my corporate income, right? That 12 month income, if I extended that 12 months, I'm on pace. And then by year two, I knew I wasn't going back. had figured out enough or gained enough confidence that I could find a deal and do those types of things. That it just takes that repetition, the time. I think you, I haven't figured out how to accelerate that for folks. Right? That says, Hey, once you get that first deal or two, just something shifts, right? You break the seal.

Okay.

You get probably as the confidence and it's just a different mindset or maybe subconsciously we're acting a little bit different or we're approaching it differently. I don't know.

I think so. think it's emotional too. Like the need isn't as keen anymore. You know, and I'm sure Brett, you talk about this a lot in your work, but having a community or a mastermind or whatever it is of other people to make this process a little less lonely and to have somebody who is going to check you and, you know, creating this sort of circle of connectors, if you will, whoever, at least going to connect you to ideas, if not introductions, is really the difference between it being something that's

Almost, yeah.

a real slog versus something that you're going to be buoyed through.

Yeah, there is light at the end of the tunnel and like I said, nothing's ever easier. I always tell people it's not what we do isn't rocket science, but it is hard work. You still have to put the effort in. You just can't show up and expect people to buy from you or appreciate your work. But that's the thing I found with this audience. Everybody's still willing to work. They don't mind hard work. just, they just, confidence is the name of this. Right. I mean, there's a lot of folks that I meet at the tail end of their corporate career. They've been doing it for 30 years.

Yeah.

And if you've been in corporate 30 years, you played the game, you've, you've navigated a successful career. You know what you're doing, but they're starting to doubt themselves in their corporate role, let alone going in a solo role. I'm like, man, there's 22 year old kids that have no fear that are selling into the businesses you want to sell into because they're taking action, right? They're figuring it out to that. And that's what really frustrated me in the early days. I'm like, look, you've got

Yes.

the way.

If you have 30 years of experience that you can leverage with these small businesses, these kids that haven't been doing it forever are working with them. You absolutely have the capabilities to go do this. So like I said, it's evolving. But again, I wish I could help people find that shortcut. part of it is just doing it.

Well, I think there's something that those of us who are maybe Gen Xers or Boomers have a bit of a leg up on the younger generation, which is that we grew up in an era where being helpful was a core value. Now, some of us may have been better at it than others, but the younger generation is more transactional and maybe that makes them better at sales. But remember, none of what I've just shared with you today has anything to do with some manipulative sales tax.

You're just looking to be helpful. And that's like good old fashioned being a gentleman or a gentle woman, right? That's like, how do I be civil to this other human being in a way that is helpful to them without asking for nothing in return? And if you can turn that into a muscle that is really built out and something that really is your sort go-to move, you'll find that it pays off in spades. But it's something that the younger generations aren't necessarily taught.

Right.

You know that we we call them the trophy generation or the generation that has had a lot of attention on themselves Whereas those of us who are latchkey or those of us who you know boomers like there was a lot more You got to get out there and kind of tough it out in a world that may not serve it all up to you on a platter

Yeah, figure it out, right? Problem solvers. And that's the other thing I tell folks is like, if you can reframe this and saying, I don't know how to sell, I'm like, you're not selling, right? It's you're solving a problem. And to solve this problem, it's going to cost you X, Y, or Z, depending on how much effort or what you need from the outcomes. And it's kind of funny how that reframing sometimes works, right? That again, psychological, we get in our own way when we think about it. And it's

Exactly, exactly.

That's helped me right when I started thinking about it what I found when I left corporate and I was selling B2B, you digital transformation services, right.

And what I could do when I was going into these clients and say, look, I was in your shoes. I knew exactly what was going on because I was in these organizations that really struggled with everything that you're going through. And that just gave me confidence to go in and have those conversations and not sell. wasn't selling. I'm like, I can solve this problem. can figure out how to do it. And so I think being able to change that conversation to, I said, even if you're having with maybe the connectors or if you've got a prospect.

Don't think of it, think of it as you're on a job interview, right? If you're interviewing for a job, you're listening, right? All right, what's wrong with this place? What are the biggest challenges facing? You're going to think, it, I'm in the right position. Am I the right fit for this position? Can I do it? It's the same thing. You're listening to a business owner. Here's all their challenges. You're thinking, can I solve this problem? Is this something that I can do? And then it's packaging it up to the way you solve the problem. But,

Yeah, that's again, coming back to your book and why I like the way you break this down is you're not, it's not use car sales tactics or, it's not, it's building the relationships. It's having a system, it's having a process and it's helping people in return. They're going to give it back to you.

That's right. That's right. Because it will be in their self-interest to have you around every time they interact with you. You're helping them out in some way. And I don't want to be being sort of broadly categorical in terms of generational traits. When we look at younger generations, millennials, even Gen Zers, their superpower from what I've observed is that they're much more comfortable not having a job.

Right? Like they grew up in an era where entrepreneur is absolutely an option. Whereas maybe when you and I were their age, we were like, OK, well, I'm 18. Better go get my job or go to college. Like that was a much more of a linear sort of trajectory. And so there may be some discomfort with the idea of kind of creating your own destiny.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I've talked a little bit about this. What we can learn from Gen Z is they're moving into, when they go into the corporate world, they're not saying, all right, I'm signing up for 30 years, put me through the paces and do, they're like, no, I'm not coming in at eight. Are you paying me to come from eight to five? That's the job I'm doing where we were taught and raised in the corporate is go above and beyond. So you can get promoted to that next level. They're like, time out. That's not the path I want to go on. If you want me to do this job, this is what we're.

we're doing. I do tell some of our fellow Gen Xers, we can learn a little something, especially at this stage of our career. What are you going above? And again, you get paid to do a job and whole separate discussion we can have. But no, you're right. There's learnings from all sides. but again, that's why, again, my audience is the Gen X and the boomers. We pull some of the older millennials. But leverage that that skill set, right? Because I do think part of what

Yeah, that's right.

you know, corporate put us into that box, right? And you learn not to rock the boat. Don't experiment. Don't do these things. Cause if you get it wrong, you're going to get punished where we grew up completely opposite of that. And so now what I think COVID did teach us with the work from home and opening, like, Whoa, it did for me. I'm like, man, what is the end game here? And we're getting off topic a little bit, but we have that, that skillset and

Yeah.

Yeah.

Basically what I've tried to tell you, you have everything inside you. It's again, coming from a completely systematic corporate where your calendar is told what to do, the projects are told, you own everything. Again, a process like yours makes sense, right? Because networking is core to you being successful or not successful. And so if you can put a system that works for you into place, it's going to make your life that much easier.

I want to share one more insight from the book, which is the section on dormant ties. And there's been a lot of research around this. Maybe LinkedIn isn't the place to find dormant ties. Maybe it's Facebook. But you know how you go on Facebook and say, yeah, I went to high school with that woman. Or, yeah, we knew each other back three jobs ago, or what have you. And oftentimes, those dormant ties are good candidates for your shortlist. Because think about it, Brett. If you and I are

hanging out in a four to six week cadence, I pretty much know what's going on with you. You've probably already made whatever introductions were initially going to occur to you to make to me, or you you've shared the advice that was the low hanging fruit advice. So the, the, the next conversation we have, there might be 5 % more value there, but if we haven't talked in five years or 15 years and we're reconnecting,

First of all, there's this burst of enthusiasm like, man, how have you been? And what have you been doing? And how are the kids? Or whatever. But then there's all of these opportunities and relationships and affiliations that you've developed over that period of time. So this burst of value comes in because the trust is already there. The relationship is already there. You don't have to earn that. Now you can just reap the dividends from a dormant tie. So putting a few dormant ties on the short list.

Right, right.

is always a good idea, especially in this context of starting a new endeavor or maybe thinking about leaving your corporate job and planting the seeds or laying the groundwork, if you will, so that you have a softer.

Yeah, I love that idea. And you're right. It's between Instagram and Facebook, which I hated Facebook, but I just went in and cleaned everything up. And I reconnected with three or four people that I hadn't heard from in ages. And yeah, it's it was more than dormant. Right. But it's opening it up in

So I think more on a macro level with your approach, right? If we're looking for the nine to 35, which I think most of us getting started 30, I recommend going on the higher end because nine is going to seem pretty low until we get really good at it. I'm assuming this is like a living breathing approach. Okay.

Mm-hmm.

It is, you're constantly curating. So let's say I've got my short list, I've got 30 people, you and I meet, we have a really good connection. decide, know, Brett should be on my short list. Now I have 31. But if I really look closely at the short list, I could probably drop someone, right? And certainly when I get to 35, I should be dropping someone just because if you just do the math, I mean, if you're trying to have a meaningful interaction every four to six weeks,

Okay.

You're scheduling a lot of lunches and a lot of outreach and a lot, and it is, by the way, work to create a value added communication every time. You have to really be like, okay, who's next on my short list? Brett, okay. What is Brett into? What magazines should I be flipping through for an article that Brett might be interested in? What are Brett's hobbies? What's the last thing Brett and I talked about? He's really into podcasting. Let me do some research on podcasting that Brett might not have done for himself.

Yes.

Let me use chat GBT and give me five ideas that Brett Traynor would be interested in. You're doing the due diligence so that 30 minutes later when I write you a three sentence email, it is packed with value for you or at least consideration and forethought. So this isn't just like, I've got 30 people on my short list, bang, bang, bang, bang. You are not cold calling. This is 30 meaningful, considered, and hopefully value packed.

Yeah.

extensions of your consideration.

Yeah, I mean part of, I think I read it in the book about your, you talked about chemistry and character and you do have to, and I really liked that part of it because in the past in corporate, we've had to work with folks that we didn't like, right? Even if it's clients that we didn't bring in or internal teammates. But here, I think if it's, you know, if you and I just didn't connect or didn't have the chemistry, it would be much harder for me to continue to try to do that 14 outreach.

Yep. Yep.

That's right.

So I'm guessing your advice is to find that you people that you like that you at least have a connection or chemistry with in order to help that. Okay, so that's one of your

That's right.

Yeah. You finally have the opportunity to build a network around yourself made up of people that you genuinely want to hang out with. these, you know, everyone on your short list, there should be some chemistry there so that it's easy to talk to them and you look forward to the next interaction. That way you can get to 14 a little easier. Everyone there should have high capabilities, people who you respect and who, you know, you

would be, you wouldn't feel embarrassed referring them to someone in your network. They should have collaborative personalities, like they're able to be givers, not just takers. And then obviously you want to make sure that they have character, however you define that. Everyone's going to define that differently, but you want your values to be aligned.

Yeah, because one of the things I definitely said within the community and everything, it's really been of all the folks, because I've probably had over thousand conversations now with GenXers either out or thinking about going out. And it really is the no asshole policy and not even intentionally. I mean, I would be intentional. I don't want to work with anybody that has got negative energy or just not somebody that I'd want to have. If you and I were going to connect with, I'm like, oh God, I don't want to talk to David.

I don't have to do that. And to your point, we don't have to do that anymore. So make it the folks that you like. You enjoy looking forward to the interactions or the conversations. And again, this is definitely an area where I am good at it in general, but that could be so much better if I just put a little bit more effort and create the, the mini CRM version of this and track and put a system around it versus the, to your point. Yeah, we've had 14 conversations. No, we've actually had two. I'm like, okay, fair enough.

So then I'm guessing over time you get smarter, right? If you're six interactions in and you're like, maybe this isn't the right fit, you can just slowly don't feel bad about pairing, right?

But also, yeah, and the further into it you get, the more candidates you have for your shortlist. So the more discerning you're being, right? It's like one of the characteristics I look for now is responsiveness. So I'm not probably not going to get to 14 anymore because they're not being responsive after five or six. I already don't have much respect for their character. So this starts to get a little more nuanced as you go further into it. But if you're just starting out, I would treat this like a science, not an art.

9 to 35, 14 interactions spaced out every four to six weeks. Make sure it's diversified with three categories. Just do that. Just shut up and do that. Try it for six months. And if by the end of six months, that's not working and you're not further along, great, try something else. But this system is based on research that we've done over 10 years, data backed, and ultimately looking at thousands of users who have used this system to build a book.

Yeah.

business. I can tell you with confidence that it works.

Yeah, and like I said, I'm 100 % on board and like I said, not even doing it to the full extent. I know how much better this would be. I would eliminate probably five hours a week of, I don't want to say inefficient time, but unnecessary costs. If I would just filter prospect, client, connector, and is it a fit, again, I'm getting better at it, but I need to put just a little bit of a system. It doesn't have to weigh me down, but.

That's right.

Yeah, my goal was to actually have it in place before we talked, but I haven't completely got there yet. So that's my homework assignment is to, and again, that's what I love about this. It's, it's, it's, any of us can do this. And like I said, it helps you take the guesswork out of it. It doesn't, I would almost guarantee that if you follow this process, you will get the clients that you need. just, can't imagine.

anybody that would that wouldn't have success there's something else going on if that's that's the case.

You may find people who say, know, Brett, I don't know that I know nine people who are influential, right? Sometimes we hear that. And that's great. That just means you need to start networking more. You need to go out there and go to parties and mixers and industry events and conferences and whatever. Like you've got to fill the Rolodex, as it were, with more prospective candidates for your shortlist. And one of the first exercises in the book, asks, you know, how would you rank or how would you sort of characterize your network?

Is it I know a lot of people, but not particularly well? Is it I know very few people well, and I need to grow my network? Or is there a pretty good balance of I know a good portion of people, and I know them moderately well? Everybody's going to find that they're leaning in some direction. And that almost gives you your first assignment. Do you need to go out and build more volume to your network?

Or is it really a matter of going through those five plus LinkedIn connections one by one and say, nope, nope, nope, nope. yeah, that one goes on the short list.

Yeah, I mean, just do yourself a favor and save a bunch of time by, even because you can download your LinkedIn contacts. Just go through, right? Because you're going to, when I did that, I'm like, man, I haven't heard from this person forever. But yeah, there's a bunch of people like who's that, who's that, who's that, who's that, right? So, but it takes it out. The other thing that I liked about when you talked about in the book was,

I'm going to paraphrase, but kind of upgrading your connections, right? So if you're a three and your connections at five, I'll let you explain it, but I think it just, cause as you get started, this is what your goal is, right?

Yeah, that's the influence scoring. It's in the first, I don't know, 20 pages, 30 pages of the book. basically what it says is think of yourself on this spectrum on a scale of one to five. And fives are people who have the ultimate influence in helping you achieve your SMART goal. So that would be the buyer of the exact service that you're selling or the exact kind of job that you want next or whatever it is. They are the decision makers.

And a four might be a gatekeeper or an influencer or someone who has the ear of a five, but they're not actually the person to decide. They might be the connector who introduces you to the five. And you want to put yourself at a three because you actually do have some influence over whether or not you get the smart goal. You're the one who has to put the effort in, right? But there are also people who are twos, like they have even less influence than you do. And ones, they have almost no influence. And what you want to do is make sure that you are surrounding yourself

Right.

with fours and fives because there's this phenomenon called homophily, which is that we tend to surround ourselves with people who are like us. We're very comfortable hanging out with people who are in our socioeconomic sort of band. We're very comfortable hanging out with people who have the same background as us and like the same sports teams or drive the same kind of cars or live in the same neighborhoods, right?

You know, if I'm driving around in a Toyota and I'm hanging around with a bunch of people who drive Lamborghinis, like I'm gonna be a little uncomfortable. What are we gonna talk about? They're gonna geek out about their Lambos. I can't talk about that, right? So we tend to gravitate to those who are similar to us. The problem is that those people are all threes too. They tend not to have influence at the level that we need in order for us to connect with them and ultimately get to our SMARC goals, which are aspirational by nature. Nobody's SMARC goal is,

I want my situation to look exactly the way it does tomorrow, you know, like the way it does today, right? It's like, well, then you don't need a sparkle, just hang out. That's going to happen. So when we start to look around and say, okay, well, gosh, my, community right now is made up of my family and maybe the people I go to church with, and maybe the people I go to my gym and like, I've got a group of friends. But actually when I think about it, it's homophily, we're all pretty similar in terms of our influence when looked at through the filter of.

Right.

I want my smart goal. Who are those fours and fives, right? So then you start to wonder, okay, how do I surround myself with fours and fives? It might be joining a different community. Maybe it's time for you to, you know, pony up and do that country club, or maybe you got to learn golf, or maybe you've got to like start a wine club or a book club. And the books are all, you know, focused on how to, how to invest more wisely because those people are.

going to be attracted to a book club that's about being upwardly mobile financially, right? So that's when you start to create communities that align with these higher influence scores and ultimately get you closer to people who can help you achieve your goals.

Makes sense. Yeah. Again, everything see it logic. So what I love about this, right? It's hard. It's not, there's no tricks. There's no, you just follow the process and it's going to work for you. I know we're running really short in time and I appreciate it. I want to be respectful. Is there anything that we didn't cover any big topics? Do you think, the audience should think about?

I think we've given folks a lot to think about. I would just encourage, pick up a copy of the short list. There's so much in there. And there are a lot of worksheets that you can kind of apply and roll up your sleeves and put your own circumstances into. I would highly encourage using the worksheets. I think sometimes people look at the worksheets and they're like, yeah, yeah, I get it. He wants me to list out my top seven connectors and come up with three characters. I get it. I get it. was like, actually, there's real power in doing the exercise.

there's this insight, this aha that comes forward when you go through the work and you realize, I can't think of seven connectors or three of my connectors have the wrong characteristics. They're not actually even technically connectors. Like you're not gonna get to that insight unless you roll up your sleeves and do the work. So I would just really encourage those worksheets to be part of the process.

Yeah.

Yeah, 100 % agree. I'm a big believer in frameworks and worksheets and working, right? still, I've used the remarkable and no, I'm not sponsored if they're out there anybody, but I like to write things down. I help it remembers when I, when I do this. So, yeah. And by the way, your book, I saved this until after I meet with the author, but you know, yours definitely moves into my, the four.

I must reads for solopreneurs, right? As you're going to this, this is such an important concept for folks. If they can get it right early, you're going to save a lot of time and effort in order to do that. like I I appreciate the book. I appreciate you coming on and sharing. Yeah. What's the best place where I highly encourage folks to pick up a book if you haven't got that by now, but best way to connect with you if they want to learn more about you.

The company website is pipelineplus.com and I'm on LinkedIn. That's where I spend most of my social media time. So David Ackert on LinkedIn is great. And I'm always happy to interact with folks who have been exposed to the book through your podcast. So if people have specific questions, feel free to reach out.

Awesome. I put all this in the show notes, of course, and David, I really do appreciate the time and best of luck. And we may have to have you back for a part two at some point, because I love to go back to the community because I asked ahead of time and you cover everything. What questions do you have for David? And then if we've got anything else, I'll, I'll bring it back. But again, I just think this is such a fundamental key to solo success that basically don't be a stranger.

I would welcome the chance to come back. So thanks so much for having me today. You too.

All right, David, have a good rest of your day.