“I’m not just a carpenter.”

That’s the energy Sam Aitken brings to this episode, and it is exactly what the construction industry needs more of. Carpentry is not a fallback job. It is craft, problem-solving, and leadership on-site. Sam is also using social media to show what pride in the trade actually looks like, without turning it into a glossy performance.

We sit down with Sam to talk about his journey from Carisbrook to completing his apprenticeship in Ballarat, and why he stayed working with the same boss who trained him. We also unpack what that kind of loyalty says about standards, mentorship, and doing things properly, especially in an industry where good guidance can make or break a career.

Sam pushes back hard on the idea of being “just a carpenter”. Whether he is framing, finishing, or solving the tricky problems nobody else wants, he treats the work like it matters, because it does. We talk about how good carpenters understand sequencing, tolerances, and how their decisions affect every other trade on site, and why attention to detail lifts the standard of the whole build.

We also get into the future of carpentry, including specialisation, better pathways, and what it takes to develop mastery instead of just speed. Sam shares why teaching apprentices the “why” matters, and his message to new tradies is simple. Take pride in the job, keep learning, challenge the norm, and do not shrink your ambition just because someone told you it is “just carpentry”.

👇 CHAPTER MARKERS 👇

00:00 Introduction

03:13 Who Is Sam? Instagram, Confidence & Showing Up Uncurated

05:03 Volume-Build Reality: Pride, Budgets & Doing Quality Work Anyway

07:51 Sam’s Path: Apprenticeship, Small-Town Roots & Staying With One Boss

11:06 Rethinking Carpentry: Specialisation, Trade Shortages & Micro-Certs

17:15 Teaching Apprentices: The ‘Why’, Leadership Mistakes & Better Communication

23:36 Firm vs Abusive: Feedback Culture, Praise, and Raising Standards

28:18 Why Carpentry Matters: Craft Pride & ‘I’m Just a Carpenter’ Mindset

32:25 Becoming a ‘Professional’ Carpenter: Why Mastery Takes a Decade+

33:38 Staying Loyal vs Going Solo: Security, Mentors, and Motivation

34:25 The Apprenticeship Problem: Competency Gaps, Licensing, and the Housing Shortage

39:33 Social Media as a Side Hustle (Without Losing the Craft)

41:35 Building Better: Sustainable Builds, Wraps, and Site Quality Control

44:40 Should Carpenters Be Licensed? Respect, Standards, and Advocacy

47:29 Calling Out ‘Get Rich’ Courses Targeting Apprentices (Appointment Setting & High-Ticket Sales)

53:27 Mindful Moment: Must-Have Tools + Advice for New Apprentices

59:09 Final Wrap: Consistency, Rite-of-Passage Stories, and Where to Follow Sam

LINKS:

Connect with Sam:

Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/sammy_aitken/

Our Sponsors:

Proclima - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/proclima

MEGT - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/megt

Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram: @sanctumhomes

Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt:

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/

Mentioned in this episode:

Thanks to Proclima for sponsoring this podcast

Visit www.proclima.com.au to find out more

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today.

So, hey, we're recording.

We

started I think

Yeah, we're started.

We're recording from the pro climber studio, proli built to Last,

which happens to be hit verse hype.

Yeah, we're hit vhi um, today, which is great.

So we're recording a little pod outta here.

Um, got a pretty cool, but probably a bit of a different guest.

So we'd usually have on our podcast and someone that I've actually had

written down from a long time ago

versus is Yeah.

I remember you were like, I'm gonna get this semi guy and go, who the fuck is he?

Yeah, and it's, I know we usually tips sit on a lot of building science

topics and stuff like that, but I wanted to go a little bit left field

and go back to just pure carpentry.

That's what we've started our Yep.

Uh, journey in this industry as.

Yep.

Um.

We have spoken at length in times about like how you identify to certain builders,

and they always go back to carpenters.

But you are still practicing as a carpenter and you're very,

very proud of being a carpenter.

Like it's

Yeah.

Oh, a hundred percent.

Yeah.

So like it, like I visually, soon as I come across your profile one

day and I think you're doing a passive house or saying, that's how

I kind of got fed your algorithm.

Yeah.

I was like, who, Sam?

And I just saw instant passion.

Definitely.

Like, just like, like literally I'm a carpenter and I fucking love it and

I, I want to, I guess a lot of the conversation I have in my head about how

today might go is I kind of want to give it a bit of an insight to designers,

architects, engineers, interior designers.

You hear it from a builder, but you're getting filter.

We, we filter a little bit of information sometimes.

Yep.

And I want to get it from a tradie, someone who's actually tool about on.

Nailing stuff that what is also different to what we would usually talk about is,

and I I'm gonna ask you this question.

You have referred yourself, I just do volume builder homes, and I don't

like that because I, not that I, fuck, I'm picking about volume builder.

There's like, you're more than that.

Does that make sense?

Like you are, you're, you're like, you are shutting yourself down as like,

no, you're very good at what you do.

Because, because I was reading through your responses to the questions

that we set out, and, um, you've often, I mean, and you can talk to

this a little bit more, so Madrid works with the volume builder,

but I always put quality first and

I Yeah.

I think that's very important.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah.

Maybe you just

talk.

Look.

So who are you?

Who are you?

Let you talk.

Well, yeah, Sammy Aiken.

I, um, I started my Instagram page or maybe, I don't even

think, maybe two years ago now.

Yeah.

Wow.

And I just sort of, I just thought, why not one day?

Yeah.

I just seen, I seen other accounts doing it and I kind of, I wasn't

bored with what I was doing.

Obvious.

Obviously you guys see I love what I do.

Yeah.

But I was like, I reckon I can do that too.

Yep.

Kind of nar on it for a bit.

And I was like, oh, you know, 'cause there's always the risk

of putting yourself out there.

Like, you're gonna, you're gonna make a fool of yourself.

Right.

Were

you scared that first time?

Oh yeah, yeah.

I still do things now.

And I'm like, I'm petrified, like talking the camera or something that's like, yeah.

You just sort of, you sit there and you're like, oh, oh, you, you, you just ponder

it for a bit and then you just, you do it.

And people often say to you like, oh, how do you do that?

And it's like, I struggle.

That's how I do it.

Yeah.

Like it's, um,

has has, I mean, has, has getting in front of people and talking

always been something you've done?

Like

Uh, no.

No, definitely not.

Definitely not.

It seems

super confident.

Yeah.

Everyone says that, but I just, I, I dunno.

You obviously, you look at yourself so much, but I don't see it.

It's like, I think what, it's definitely something I've have to learn.

I think what works for you though is that it doesn't feel curated.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think it's more, it's so much I do pride

myself on that.

Yeah.

But it's so much more relatable.

'cause I, I see you do it and I, I've been following you for a bit now, by the way.

Yeah.

So I do know who you are.

Uh, and I'm like, fuck, this guy is passionate.

I love the passion that comes through.

So I'm on

sleeve and that's why I wanna get back this's.

Why, like, and tradies get taken advantage of constantly and, but they trades are

people pleasers and they always want to do the best thing, even when they cut

corners and even when they fuck up, they are always trying their hardest, I feel.

Mm-hmm.

And that's why I get the visual of that.

Like you is like, I fucking put my arse on the line to do my best.

Yeah.

It's hard.

There's, I think there's also maybe a point worth mentioning is there's always

a difference between, uh, delivering the best product and doing your best

with like the resources and materials and whatnot that are given to you.

Yep.

So I know like you guys do the pro climber stuff and that.

And I'd love to dabble in the, the highest end of wraps and stuff,

but in the, I suppose the realm of carpentry that I deal with, that

might never actually be a possibility.

Like it just, it won't be a thing.

Like, I don't know if you guys know this, but I don't, don't actually

have my own company like I am.

Yeah, no, you work for someone else.

Yeah.

I'm an employee and I work for another carpenter and he subcontracts

to mostly volume builders.

Yep.

But, um, yeah, it's

just, hang on.

How does, how does, how does your employer like, think of you?

Like, Hey, I'm doing

it.

Oh, he loves it.

Because you can just, can that question?

It's a good way for him to just Yeah.

Like that good banter on site, you know?

Yeah.

But what you were saying before, I've seen some of your photos, of your

videos of, uh, window installation and then the care that you actually take.

Yeah, yeah.

You're right.

It's not the wrap that I'd use, but the care that you take to install

that wrap and install that window.

So I still think that's better building.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I still think there's an element of pride

and stuff, and that's why I go against, when you said, I'm just a volume

builder, I'm like, no, you're not.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well,

they're, so it's even hard with, um, like that video in particular,

I did a couple of windows with that exact detail, but the builder

doesn't actually supply that stuff.

So that was a paid partnership with Vapor Seal.

Yeah.

Okay.

That, that particular video.

Yeah.

And they're gonna use that on their socials and whatever, and there

might be some more things that come in the future with them too.

Great.

But that is great, and it's great that I can demonstrate the correct

way in which things should be done, but the real, the reality is like the

builder's not gonna provide all that material to do that on every single job.

Just so you can get content.

Yeah.

Or, but not even just so we can get content, but just because

like, they should be doing, like that's how it should be done.

Yeah.

That it's not,

the budget's

not there.

It's, it's certainly not.

Yeah.

The budget's not there and it's even not policed in the right manner.

Like, I've got some stuff I can show you after this of some builders that have done

some pretty ordinary wrap jobs that we've just gone and installed the windows on.

And like, it's just like,

and

what do you do there?

Do you fix it?

Well, there's nothing you can do because we don't.

Or if we were to do something about it, it's just straight out of our pocket.

Yeah,

yeah.

I understand that.

And it's a bit, it's also, it's a, it's probably another layer of

difficult as well, because at the end of the day, I'm not paying the bills.

I'm an employee.

Yeah.

So if I take time outta my day to fix something, that's not even our problem.

My boss comes to me and says, why, why are you doing that?

Yeah.

Are you on the tools with him at all?

So

he's still on the tools with you?

Yeah, he is on the tools quite a bit.

Yeah.

More, more than what I think a lot of people that know him realize

he is actually on the tools.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

And how long are you outta your apprenticeship?

How old are you now?

I am 30 this year.

So still 39 I can say.

I'm not 30 yet.

So,

so, and, and, and was your Pathway School apprenticeship and you've just sort

of stuck, you've stuck at it for now.

Yeah.

Let's talk about that.

So I did, I always knew I wanted to be a builder slash chippy.

Yep.

I always wanted to do that from like, I'm gonna say like.

Primary school.

Yeah.

That's always what I wanted to

do.

And, and, and do I, am I making the assumption right?

Grew up in the country, kind of country kinda lifestyle?

Were you on land by

No, we weren't on land.

I mean, we grew up in small towns.

Yeah.

I grew up in a town called Caras Brook, which has like

a couple thousand people top.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's, it's pretty small.

And then I moved to Ballarat to do my apprenticeship.

Yep.

I spent my first three years in my apprenticeship, like house sharing with

mates and stuff and working for nothing.

But

Yep.

I mean, I'm still pretty young, what I call nothing.

A lot of people that I get along with now, like they were making half of

what I was making when they were a first year, second year and whatever.

Yeah.

So they probably think I was raking it in, but, um, so did me

apprenticeship, um, became qualified.

I actually got signed off like not super early, like a couple months early.

My boss did his back.

Yeah.

And had no one to sort of do the day-to-day sort of thing, and I

just sort of had to man up, I guess.

I just had to be pushed in.

I didn't have to be pushed into that role, but I, I felt I was capable of

doing it and just sort of went into that and started essentially running the jobs.

He was definitely close by over my shoulder to oversee everything.

Yeah.

So I wasn't like completely thrown in the deep end as such, but when it

come to day to day stuff on site, he was probably off the tools and offsite

for probably six months, I reckon.

Yeah.

Okay.

This is your, your current boss?

No, this is

this, yeah.

Current boss.

I've worked for the same boss my whole career.

Oh,

wow.

I wanna get to that in a second.

I was his, I was his first ever apprentice too, so.

Right.

Yeah.

First ever apprentice.

And you're

still good on you for, I mean, he must be a great guy.

He's a fantastic bloke.

He's an absolute character.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

He's very, very.

He is very cheeky.

He's very, uh, yeah, he's good.

Yeah.

And, and he's, he's, he's been in that kinda, um, volume builder

space for his entire career as well.

Yeah.

So he did his apprenticeship building, uh, mostly transportable houses.

Yeah.

What I can sort of understand with talking to him that they did do new homes as well.

Yeah.

But that was sort of his old boss's main bread and butter.

Yep.

And then he went out on his own and just started picking up subby work

with volume builders and stuff.

What volume builders do you work for currently?

Uh, currently in Ballarat we work for Boutique, which is

Boutique Home Buyers Center.

Yep.

Um, and we just started picking up Metricon stuff again.

Yep.

And I'm

trying to

see of the other main, and we build for, they're not really, uh, volume

builders in Ballarat, but they're sort of main builders in Ballarat and

McMaster Homes And, uh, street out homes will sometimes do some of their work.

They've got a, a group of, um, in-house chippies, but.

When they get busy.

Yep.

We'll jump on board and help them out too.

And you'll do everything from like a subfloor all the way through to a fix

sometimes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But you're capable, that's what I mean.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Absolutely.

And I, that's a good point.

I think every carpenter should be capable to build a house from

like Earth, raw Earth to Kate.

So, so I, this is a good conversation because.

I feel if we wanna improve our industry in the carpentry perspective, I think

we actually kind of potentially need to go a little bit different to that.

And yes, a traditional carpet.

I'm gonna carpenter, I'm gonna agree.

Should we start to finish?

Like, that is a carpenter, but why can't we break it down to little

subcategories like plumbing where

I love this.

We just, you're

just, I've wanted to make a reel on this.

I was talking with one of, one of my good friends the other day about this,

and I believe framing itself should be a

A trade.

A trade.

Yep.

Yep.

You can just be

a fucking gun framer and Yeah.

Yeah.

You can be a gun framer.

You can be bloody proud to be that too.

Yeah.

You don't have to know it all.

You can just specialize in a field.

It's no different to plumbers just being roofers.

Yeah.

It's no different.

Yeah.

You like at your trade school, slightly adapted, so you spend more time

learning to do trusses pitching a roof.

Yeah, maybe some CLT panels.

Um, I

mean, and the, the, the fact is we've got this massive trade shortage.

Like why not shorten that period of, if you, you could make an expert

in one or two years Just framing.

Yeah.

Just, and then just put 'em out.

Just fix,

just

cladding.

Yeah.

There's plenty of carpenters I know that are just finished carpenters.

That's all I do.

They just go cla cladding, fix cladding, fix cladding fix.

And that's, that's what they do.

That's what they specialize in.

They're bloody good at it.

Yeah.

Like that.

That's it.

Add sub

floors in as well.

Or

like, but get 'em on a frame.

They'd be way outta their depth.

And then it's the opposite too.

Yeah.

We, we have blokes 'cause we do predominantly framing.

If we just dumped them on a fix, they'd be so outta their depth.

Yeah.

I mean, I guarantee if, if, if you jumped on one of my building sites and

I put you next to some of my chippies, 'cause we do everything start to finish,

like we're form work concreting, you know, we're, we're boxing slabs, we're

installing, still, we're doing everything.

I love that.

And I feel like.

I, I want that for every carpenter.

You know?

I want everyone to be able to ex just at least experience building

a house from like start to finish.

And I

think that you need to be able to experience, I agree with it,

but I guarantee you would run fucking rings around my team

when it comes to just framing.

Just

process though.

Just like you, like Yeah, no,

talk out.

Yeah.

And then there'd be others places where I'd fall to

pieces and then just take over.

Feel like that's, yeah.

We show

you like, hey, this is how we

do

it.

And you'd be like, oh, awesome.

I get that

now.

And I feel like that's okay.

Yeah, I

agree with that.

It needs to, the industry needs to have some sort of.

I dunno what you call it.

Like a,

a reset?

Yeah.

Restructure or something around it.

It, I

thinks you, you brought up, sorry to interrupt.

You brought up the podcast that Brian and Simon did with, um, the guy from HAA.

From HA.

He said it, he goes, we should, we should be fooc.

We, we've got this massive shortage.

We should be focusing on doing certificates around certain things.

Mm. Someone hanging doors.

Yeah.

Become an expert at hanging doors.

Roll them out.

Yeah.

Get the specialist.

Now

I'm an

expert in doing Aries and skirting.

Add that to your list

and you can, you incrementally build up your little certificates.

At some point you can become an A,

is that not what plumbing is?

Yeah.

Like you can be a qualified plumber without being licensed in anything.

Perhaps introducing licenses, but also holds people accountable for things too.

Yeah.

And maybe there's a base level that you need to do.

So maybe there's a year of.

Just standard

understanding timber and

structure and safety engineering plans, plans and all that stuff.

And then after that you can specialize in like a, a quicker way

to earning more money is this pathway.

Or you can go this pathway to be fully qualified to, to get your certificate.

Three.

Yeah.

And just add in as you go.

Like you, you, you, which means we

to solve the problem.

We can turn it off, it,

turn the camera off.

But, but it's good to hear it from someone like yourself

because I get scared saying it.

I'm sitting in my office in my chinos and rms with the B birken with, with my,

but like when, but I get disconnected still from the, the average tradie.

I see my team on site, but like they're in a bubble and then

we go back to what Sam's doing.

And when I hear him say that, why don't we do it?

They're like, I'm like, no, no.

Like if he's agreeing,

yeah,

we, we need to look at this a little bit differently.

And because people are proud to be carpenters and they're

scared to lose that title.

Mm.

Yeah, that's true.

Yeah.

They're scared to have it stripped away with them, but it can be done.

'cause we've seen it in plumbing, we see it in electrical.

We're seeing it.

We're seeing it.

Like

Yeah.

You can be like, I'm a carpenter specializing in this.

Yeah, absolutely.

Still close.

Absolutely.

The doctors do it, you

know?

Yeah.

Oh

yeah.

The, the oncologist isn't upset that the cardio surgeon's doing their

thing, and I don't know about that.

Like, yeah, you, you just specialize.

And that's how we, and I think within that you get pride.

You get more pride.

'cause like, no, I'm a fixed carpenter.

We can speed too though.

I mean, mm.

Quality.

I'm sure.

Like if you look at the stuff that you guys do again, you would put up

a frame in, I would say a 10th of the time that my team had probably

built.

Are you, you mainly stick build or are you prefab?

Uh, we're probably a third stick build.

Two thirds prefab now.

For a long time there it was just prefab.

Yeah.

And then probably wind back a clock, five years.

It was just stick frame.

I love, why is that?

I love stick frame.

Why is that?

We're doing a lot for Metricon and they still stick frame.

Why?

Why is that?

Yeah,

I heard

they do stick

frame.

I'm assuming cost.

That's, that's what it'd have to come to.

You

think it's, you reckon it's cheaper to stick frame than this to prefab?

I don't think it is because we've done work with other builders

before than they've done.

They usually do prefab and for whatever reason this was sort of around COVID and

they couldn't get the wall frames out.

So of like, oh, just wanna stick, build it and it cost them like

way more for us to stick build it.

Yeah.

So I don't, I have a theory, I

have a theory on that, and again, I could be completely wrong, but Metricon own

forests, so they've got their own timber supply and maybe, yeah, that makes sense.

And maybe they don't have a trust plant, so maybe they've got the

timber maybe and they just go Right.

Well

a lot of 'em have their own trust plant and they just

keep, I, I dunno, I'm just, I'm, I'm just sort of waxing ly question.

There'd be a pretty economic, there'd be a financial reason why at some point

if, if Metricon is doing it, there has to be a reason that there would've researched

all different ways of putting houses up.

Sure.

Yeah.

And where and where do you see the issue?

Where carpentry, other than maybe the licensing structure are around that,

like do you see young kids coming through with a change of attitude?

Do you see like where, where do you like even going from a stick

bill to a prefab frame, where do you see the major differences in

pain points from your perspective?

Probably, I'd have to say, and I was guilty of this myself, learning my trade

too, is like you don't understand the why, and unless it's explained to you you don't

like you, you might never actually get it.

Like you'll do a task a thousand times, but unless you actually

understand why you were doing that task, you'll never actually fully

comprehend what it is you're doing

unless you ask why.

Yeah.

Well,

do you teach why to your apprentices?

Well, that's a very interesting thing.

We're like, as qualified or in any trade, you're never taught to teach anyone.

It's such a,

I'm, I'm only laughing because this has come up so many times.

Yeah.

It is such a difficult thing and for a long time, like I would still say like,

I'm not a perfect teacher, but like I was a terrible teacher, you know?

And.

It's not until you sort of pull your head outta your ass and you go, look,

I I, I've actually got some sort of due diligence here to Yeah, these kids get it.

How old, how

old were you when you finished your apprenticeship?

I was, I would've been 22.

So now you

are

teaching young, 22-year-old male up and about weekend, gonna bit of money.

Now you're gonna be like bit of, bit of power

talent.

Yeah.

You probably did, you used to yell at your apprentices to do stuff for then?

Yeah, absolutely.

And I hate myself for it now because I know, like understanding what

it is and like, I actually did it till very recently, probably only

12 months ago, I probably properly pulled my head in and was like, you

actually can't treat people like that.

And what made you get to that point?

How did that come about?

Um, a bloke quit and it was basically, 'cause we had a blue and I was like,

do you wanna talk more about what happened?

Um, I asked him to do something.

He didn't do it.

He got into shit about it.

We blew up at each other.

Like it was just a, a verbal sort of tiff.

Yeah.

And I basically said, if you don't like it, you can stick it.

I went and grabbed something from the hardware store, got back and he was gone.

And I'd had to ring my boss and be like, I think this guy's just quit.

'cause I just had a blow up.

He was fairly supportive of me because he wasn't pulling his weight.

But I was just the principle of how you about it.

I was probably the deciding factor there.

Let

me ask you this.

How, like, knowing what you know now, like sitting here in February in 2026?

Yeah.

How would you approach that today?

The same scenario happened today.

I've actually never reflected like that.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's

good question.

Well think about it.

Yeah.

It's all right.

We can edit the calls out.

No, no, we

can No edits.

Um,

no, I definitely could've just Yeah.

Cooled the jets a bit.

Mm-hmm.

Take a breath and be like, like what, what is the actual problem here?

Yeah.

Because fundamentally what was the problem at the time, it wasn't

actually that big of a problem.

But you know, when like this little thing will happen and this little bit

and this little bit, and then all of a sudden you've got this big problem.

Yep.

And you can't actually identify what started it.

Yeah.

Kinda like that.

It's like, all right, let's talk about it.

Let's break it down.

Let's work out all these little things that are,

you communicate early enough for the first, the first time it happened.

This is why we do Bud.

Yeah.

Like why, why do we like, Hey, we don't do it this way, we do it this way.

Do you want me to show you?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That that'd be great.

Yeah.

Like you not talk, you said

something before.

I think I'd take a breath.

I think that right there.

I've read a book over Christmas.

My wife gave it to me and I'm 43.

Right.

And I grew.

And I, my experience in that was

50 shades of gray that you read.

Yeah.

My experience in carpentry was the, was I was kind of at that, that, that tail end

of that real yelling culture, you know, the old school builders coming through

and it's yell from the moment you get on site to the moment you finish and the

moment three 30 kicks over slabs of beer come out and everyone's your best mate.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's the culture that I grew up in.

Yeah.

And I learned really quickly that that's not how I don't feel good here.

Yeah.

And I, it took me a while to, to kind of weed my way off reacting like that.

You saying that actually unlocks sort of something for me.

I feel like I have that capacity to have like a blue with someone

and then five minutes later sit down and have a beer with them.

Yep.

But then you need to understand that not everyone else has that same capacity.

And I would challenge you that if you've got the capacity to do that,

you've also got the capacity to stop.

For 30 seconds and take a really big, deep breath and center yourself.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then approach the conversation.

Even ask the Apprentice or the other team member, like, how do you think

we should approach this situation?

Let's stop.

What, what?

What should we do?

Yeah.

Like, let them talk and then just be like, why do you think we should do that?

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

But how, what about, how about that?

Have you considered that you, your knowledge, especially if

they're like junior, you'll slowly, naturally unravel them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then you get to them, you want to get to them at that point

and going, oh yeah, that's right.

Once you get that, yeah, that's right.

You've got them.

Well I think, I think like getting back to the 50 grade shade of grade

book that I read over Christmas, which is not what it was that way.

I've been talking dirty to That's not what it was.

Uh, it's actually like the, you read the sequel.

The advice is actually really understanding where they're coming from.

Yes.

Yeah.

And like that's what's really powerful.

So stopping.

And then going, okay, cool.

Help me understand why you are doing that.

Yeah, yeah.

Help me understand why you did that, or help me understand why

you're reacting in this way.

Yeah.

Because then you're giving them an opportunity to have a conversation.

It's negotiation at the end

of the day, and it's like, you know, you, you levels are down

and you're having a conversation.

So,

or walk away.

Just like, I know that sometimes when I get shitty, I just, and I can't

finish a task in front of my computer.

I just go for a walk.

Oh, you walk away.

Take

yourself.

Just walk away.

Just like, and then, because what happens is you sit there and you try to fix it,

and you spend three hours where I'll go for a five minute walk, come back,

and I've then complete the task in five minutes and I'm like, oh, that was easy.

Yeah.

I'm, I'm now like, if I get a text message or an email or that

I don't like, I'm like, cool.

And put that down.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm gonna go and take myself away for a

sec. Respond, don't react.

Yeah.

Just

don't, I probably just learn to realize that things aren't that big of a deal.

Yes.

Like I used to think that every, and I just obsess over every day like a and

all about things like frustratingly

what?

Like what?

Just little details.

Like there'd be, I don't know, I'd ask one of the boys to shoot off

all the junctions or something and they'd miss like one and I'd be like,

mate, you clearly haven't done it.

You haven't been like, but I'm like, at the end of the day,

it's not that big of a deal.

I just say, Hey, you missed one.

Can you go fix that?

Yeah.

That would be a way better approach than blasting 'em and being

like, you haven't done your job.

What are you doing?

Yeah.

Can I, can I go back now the opposite way?

Do you think there's something that we've lost in this?

I do think about this a lot

too and like, like are we just racing, wrapping people in cotton wool.

My fucking too precious.

Where, and I look at this from a football perspective, I played footy fur.

I'm one of my 30, 36.

I played since I was like 16, like senior footy pretty much.

I think like you sometimes get three to five seconds to get a message across

to someone and it has to be quick and it has to make sense because you

do not have time to stop the game.

And it's sometimes like you need to be fucking there.

At that point.

You didn't cover me.

Yep.

And there's nothing wrong with it.

You're not, yes.

It can be aggressive.

Yes, it can be, it can come across abusive.

It's not from a negative space.

You are ultimately trying to bridge that gap of a communication that

can be, can be lost to be better.

And I find sometimes feel that, I'm also feel very fortunate they also got spoken

to that way as, as a carpenter to be like, that's not fucking good enough.

Yeah.

So you go, you know what?

I, I, it's not, and I could recognize that and I sometimes I know holding their hand

and being like, oh, you didn't do this.

Like, do they learn?

I don't, I, I don't know.

And I'm just,

no, I don't, I don't think they do.

I don't think anyone really learns that way.

You learn from like, like those shock sort of impact things I feel.

So I've, I've taken this approach and I dunno if this is right or wrong.

Like I've, I'm, I've been catching up with my apprentices and, and

carpenters more recently now, and I've actually said to them, there are gonna

be times where I am gonna tell you things that you are not gonna like.

Mm-hmm.

So I'm pre, I'm predating me.

Soft blank.

Taking the agency to actually tell 'em that something's wrong.

Yeah.

And I'm like, I'm gonna tell you when you do good things, and as the business owner,

I have the right to tell you that you're doing bad things and I'm gonna tell you

when you're not doing things correctly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's reasonably fair.

Yeah,

absolutely.

And when you're, you're inviting them into that, I'm gonna see how this plays out.

Right.

This is all a new thing for me, but I'm gonna see how it plays out with me.

I'm, I'm kind of not asking their permission to have a crack at 'em.

I'm just telling them, I'm, I'm letting, letting them know that, hey,

there are gonna be times where you are gonna do something that I don't like.

Yeah.

And I'm going to tell you,

I think there's no shame in being firm with someone too.

Yeah.

Like, you do this, or you're out, or, you know, that's a bit extreme.

You know what I mean's?

That's not part of our standard.

We don't talk to people like, like, so let's go back.

If I told you that skirting was fucking shit, like that needs to be better.

And I might put a bit differently to that, it might be a bit more,

Hey, this skirting, I'm not happy with the way it's being done.

We're better than that.

What would be the difference is someone, if you were yelling and screaming at

someone, I said, Sam, that's fucking shit.

The way you talk to that person, don't talk to them like that.

That's not on What is the difference?

Because there's not

Well, it's, it's a, it's a hundred percent communication.

Like, um, I, I'm not gonna, I'm pretty sure it was Billy Slater, the storm coach.

Melin Storm coach says like, catch people doing the right thing.

Yeah.

We are so caught up on catching people like doing, like doing the wrong thing.

Yeah.

So if you're catching people doing the right thing, Hey Sam, you know what

that fucking wall there was gun barrel.

Straight well done.

Well and it was real difficult

wall.

That was really twisted Timber done.

That.

Well done.

And then the next time I go, Hey Sam, just notice you.

Nailing off that wall junction.

You reckon you can go do that for me?

And you'd be like, yeah, no, no dramas.

So there's a difference between me going, ignoring that and then

just going, fucking hell, Sam.

Yeah.

No, it's very true.

You didn't nail off that.

Sometimes you just, you, you just see it so dialed in on critiquing things.

Yep.

You forget to compliment.

And I'm not, and I'm, I'm not perfect.

Not perfect.

Right.

I'm learning to get better at doing this stuff

in this world.

And I know, I, I, I just sometimes wonder if we're just too precious.

I ask

what you were saying before.

There are, there's an element, oh, fucking I'm gonna get canceled saying this.

And I don't think, and I don't think times, people just need to get a ear.

Oh fuck,

I sprayed to multiple times.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I think you can do it in a way that's both respectful but also direct.

But then as long as that's not every single day.

Mm.

Yeah.

'cause well, then it loses its effect.

Yeah.

So I think, I think that it's a

No, we're hijacking your fucking

No, I know.

It's a good round.

I, I, I. And Yeah.

The, the, the hard thing.

Yeah.

It's not that I think people should go and abusing people, and I don't,

and I don't think you need to swear or yell and raise your voice to get it.

You, it's, you said it perfectly.

It's a firm, Hey, we're better than this.

Mm-hmm.

And I'd expect that if I did something similar, you say the same thing to me.

Yeah.

And there's not, I'm not taking it personally.

If anything, I look at it, say, I'm looking out for you to help

you get better to do your job.

Because if that keeps happening and I don't tell you and all of

a sudden five, six callbacks, you're probably gonna get the ass.

Mm.

So then it's like, it's two gone.

That's probably the issue you had last time is where you had

multiple people multiple times.

You clash.

Your clash, you clash.

Then you had your big tiff, and then it's done.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sorry.

Um, Sam, you said that car, you've always known that you wanted to be a carpenter.

Yes.

What is it about carpentry that just drew you in and consumed you?

I think it'd have to be just being able to stand back at the end of the day.

And just see, like, you can just see exactly what you've done and just, I,

I just reckon that's the coolest thing.

It is,

it's just the coolest thing.

Okay.

And I feel like,

and when you straighten a wall, you can't see what you've done,

but a carpenter can.

Yeah.

A carpenter can.

Yeah.

Good

answer.

Yeah.

So I, I unfortunately don't get the opportunity to put a

tour bed on much these days.

Yeah.

But last Saturday I had one of my team at my place and, um, pm we,

uh, built a pergola and fuck me.

I was so happy at the end of the day.

Yeah.

Just, I, I took it and I keep looking at the photos that I've got Yeah.

On my phone going and I keep wandering down and looking at

the checkout and the bird's mouth and, oh fuck, I've still got it.

Yes.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

Is your

press holding your hand as you cut with a power saw, mate,

I tell you what, I, I, I cut my teeth like building pergolas

and decks and stuff like that.

I'm a weapon on a power saw.

I, I fuck all these people, like getting their squares out and

like cutting a straight line.

Yeah.

I was never, are you kidding?

I was never taught, I'm a shit carpenter.

I'm open, but like I, when I cut with the power, so it was No, you didn't have that.

You cut straight.

Oh yeah, you cut, you are cut.

You just eyeballing it.

Boom.

You can either looking on this side

or that side,

sort of the line.

You're cutting it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You, yeah.

Now it's like the square and from when I first time I saw, I was like, good idea.

Like actually think, but it's like, I

think it has a time and a place, but people use it like religiously, like

they will not make a cut without it.

And it's like, come on, you should, you should have the ability to

cut a

straight line, line the base up with it and just

push.

Sure.

Exactly.

So what were, you're 12, almost 12 years into your carpentry career?

Yeah, almost.

Yeah.

Did

you do it again?

The passion still?

Would I do it again?

I'll do it again and again and again.

It's unreal.

Yeah.

So the

passion's still there.

Yeah, definitely.

I mean, I can see it even just sitting with you now, like the, I dunno, just

I wish, I wish I love carpentry like that.

Like I actually, like, I, I love carpentry.

I was shit at it and I knew it and I, I respect it and I feel like it's the

most undervalued trade on a project because you are there, start to finish.

You work with every trade.

You don't have a license, you're potentially like, looked at as like,

oh, they're just the carpenter.

But yet you have, you are, the carpentry isn't the word though, I feel like.

Mm-hmm.

Like,

yeah, I'm hearing, you know, I mean, I, how to explain and I

also wanna ask you too, um, so you always wanna be a carpenter?

Can I, I just wanna comment on that.

Yeah.

I feel like a carpenter is one of the only trades that has to

have some sort of comprehension of what every other trade does.

Agree.

Say a painter doesn't have to really necessarily know what a plumber or

a electrician or a tile or whatever does, but to be a carpenter, like

a good, well-rounded carpenter, you kind of have to have some sort of

understanding of what all the other trades do to be able to work in with them.

That's our Instagram reel.

Hamish, I agree.

I, I, I, I, I a hundred percent agree with you

that that's, um, it's a, yeah.

That's

so perfect.

Do you find in your, like.

Audience or in your peer group that people are just saying, oh, I'm just a carpenter,

because I've heard that so many times.

That's what

you said.

You said that to me.

They were your, they

were your words.

I'm just

a carpenter.

That was somewhat of a piss take, but I do, I see what you mean.

It's, yeah.

People do say they're just carpenters and it's like, even

people say, uh, I seen another fella who does the reels and stuff.

He made one.

He, he said he was, um, he was talking to a bloke and he was

like, oh, I'm just a painter.

And it's like, well, we're actually all very, very, very

important parts of the whole thing.

It's like a whole, if you think of a building, right, it's

all these cogs all together.

Some bigger, maybe more important than others, but nonetheless, if you

remove one of them, it doesn't spin.

Like it doesn't, it doesn't function as it should.

So we're all very important in one capacity or another.

And I and I, and I think that, um, yeah, it's such a good analogy.

It's great analogy.

It's a really great analogy actually.

I'm watching,

I'm watching both of your minds.

S it's fucking brilliant.

Like, um, but you think about a, uh, like we're builders, right?

So we've got multiple different clients, like different like, and uh, I've got

medical professionals, I've got lawyers, I've got, um, business owners, whatever,

and I look at them and say a surgeon, for example, they would've worked, uh,

gone through medical school and then specialized, and then done whatever your

goal would be to become a builder, right?

Yeah.

I'm assuming, right?

Yeah.

Never be one day.

Yeah.

So you are, so you are right now, 12 years in and still haven't hit

the pinnacle of your profession?

No, I don't even think I've.

Grass carpentry to its full realm.

So hear me.

So hear me out there.

There is a point here, because a surgeon is not a surgeon that can

go and start cutting people open by themselves until they're like 38

mm.

Right?

Yeah.

So there's 15, 16, I mean, I could be completely wrong

here, so someone correct me.

Yeah.

But it's 10, 12 years.

Right.

And I think it's the same to become a professional as a builder

industry.

Yeah.

Or any industry like it's not just a carpenter.

You are on your journey to becoming that professional that every trades person

should actually think that they are.

So 'cause it, this is cool because, so you finish your apprenticeship.

Yep.

Why don't you just go by yourself like everyone else?

Why did I not go by myself?

I don't really know the answer to that.

I think what I keep coming back to is I love the security

and I loved where I worked.

My boss always looked after me.

He still looks after me very well now.

So I've never had.

I've never really had a sort of itch or a reason to explore more.

Do you think?

I kind of feel you're unique in that

way, but I think this, I'm kind of gonna, hopefully you can, he I'll get

to where hopefully you put pull up.

I shut up now.

No, no, no.

But like, no, no, no.

Because like, I think it's more like, like, 'cause everyone kid

just finishes their fourth year and I'm fucking, I've got a business.

Yes.

Yeah.

And then what do you think the issue is that with that,

the issue with that is no one knows how to be a carpenter after fourth years.

That's not, that's not real.

That's not reality.

You know, maybe back in the day when there's your real

It's

true.

That is, that is like

what?

Because may, maybe back in the day when a carpenter was a carpenter start to

finish, they might only have built 15 homes in the whole apprenticeship if

4, 4, 4 homes, four

homes year.

Yeah.

But they knew how every single aspect of that home got put together.

Yeah.

Nowadays.

Yeah, like even with our, our boys, like they'll just spend years

framing, framing and cladding.

A little bit of fix out and a little bit of other stuff.

Dex per goal or whatever, thrown in, but not enough to really be competent at it.

And in a terms of like, here's a job, here's a pack of timber.

Go and pitch this sort of thing.

But it's, um,

this is where it's, this is where it's tricky because I, I look at my

apprentices who have come through over the years and they do everything.

So they're like almost, they've just got this big bag of tools and all

the tools of different experiences.

I probably come from a different side of the hill, that exactly

perspective, and it's just, it is very nearly cookie cutter.

It is very repeat.

The size of the houses change and all the rest, but fundamentally it's a

wall frame's, a wall frame, like, yeah.

So, yeah, because what my thinking and if I, they said

Matt, fix part of the carpent.

Yes.

Issue.

One of the things I would do is like you finish your carpentry

apprenticeship, you can't start a business until you get a license.

And we will not issue a license until you've got three post carpentry sign off.

Then you can go for it.

And I don't think that a, someone who's just finished their fourth

year of carpentry should get an

apprentice.

But the issue that we have, no, but the current issue have, they do all the time.

We have 1.2 million homes need to be built, and I bang on about it all the

time, and we have a huge labor shortage.

You know what sounds fucking sexy?

We had 30,000 carpenters finish their apprenticeship this year, or 34,000.

No.

Fuck all.

Yeah.

Like, and, and, but that ticks the number.

Yeah, because, oh, look how many more carpenters we got.

Ticks the metric.

But fundamentally it doesn't actually Yeah.

Solve the problem.

And all it does is it just means that these people go out and build by themself

who know fuck all and build shit houses.

And then that cycle just is a, just a snowball.

And they teach in the first year who they don't know as much as

they probably should at that point.

And where I'm getting to is you've been so loyal, which is a super red trait.

I don't know anyone that's worked for someone that long, straight out.

I wanna ask this, like, have you, and I dunno if your boss is

gonna be listening to this, has the grass ever looked greener?

Like has it ever, have you ever wavered, have you ever gone?

Um,

yeah, it definitely has.

There's definitely been times where I've thought, oh, maybe I could go and do my

own thing, or maybe I could go and look for a job with this person elsewhere.

But I've sort of got that loyalty to my boss where if I ever have

felt like that, I've just approached him and I'm like, what's up?

Like you talk about it, whether it's money or conditions or, yeah, I, I still

thinks you, you're incredibly

what motivates me?

Is

it money or is it other things?

Um, it used to be money.

Now it's my kids.

Yeah.

Hundred.

Have you got a

couple of kids?

Yeah, I got two.

Two.

Two daughters?

Yeah.

How

old?

Uh, two, four.

Yeah.

Wow.

Amazing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you, yeah.

So you, the, so for you it's finishing it at a reasonable time is what

motivates you more than an extra

Yes.

50 bucks.

Yes, it does now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

For a long time there I was very financially driven and frankly, not

really going nowhere, but just with interest rates and everything going up.

And we were building a couple of homes and stuff at the time and it was

just like all going down the drain.

And during doing, building a

couple of homes for yourself?

Yeah, so we built, uh, my wife built one, then I built one,

and then we built one together.

Yep.

And this was in amongst like getting married, starting a

family and everything like that.

How'd you

go working with your wife in a build?

Nah, fine.

We're fine.

Yeah, it was all good.

I joke, we just finished with my wife and I always joke that she

was the worst client I ever had.

I, I love her deal.

Oh yeah.

She's definitely the worst client of it worked for, and

she de she definitely wasn't.

Yeah.

I just think, you know, in that scenario everyone just needs to

understand where, where their else are.

I'm like, I'll take care of the structure.

You take care of how it looks?

Communication.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

See during building our, um, forever home that we're in now.

Yeah.

We, um, which is funny 'cause I wouldn't build it anything.

Like I built it when I built it, knowing what I know now.

What do you know now?

What do I know now?

Well, just little things like using better quality wraps.

Yep.

Thicker insulation.

Caring about, you know, how much draft and stuff comes in

and outta buildings and stuff.

I didn't know any of that.

So is it your forever

home now?

Well, it will be.

We we're not going to shut, like shut up shop and move anywhere.

Yeah.

You love it.

But yeah.

Yeah, I do it.

I do love at home.

And would you do, what is the, what does the next 10 years look like?

Is it you gonna, gonna hang around with your boss and how old's your boss?

Uh, boss would be five years older than me.

He'd be mid

thirties.

Okay.

So he, so he's still in his, he's still in his prime.

Yeah.

Like he's got 20 years left in him.

Like he's not a 60-year-old guy looking at retiring and you taking over like,

yeah.

How many, honestly, I think I'll just keep on chipping.

I just love it.

I don't really have any,

how could that

passion to, or like any other thing that'll go any other direction,

like the social media thing's.

Cool.

And that's presented itself a phenomenal amount of opportunities, but

also, and you

probably a side interest, it keeps

you, I was just

gonna

say

you need, but I would never,

you need these little extra things to keep you engaged in the thing that you do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I can, I would never, like say quit carpentry and do social media full time.

It would completely lose the essence of everything I've made it to be.

Yeah.

Have you been able to profit off the social media yet?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

Yeah, it's great.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And profit.

You make some money.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But, but that, but I think that's,

I don't think you realize how much money there is, isn't it?

It's incredible.

Yeah.

Okay.

I think that allows you to.

Be happy.

It does.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, that's what it goes back to.

I think that we see so many and, and like, well, uh, and I got a strong opinion on

this, and I spoke about this before on the first podcast, that like, everyone

sees Instagram, this beautiful world.

Yeah.

And I've gotta go be the builder and I've gotta be, I've just, I've gotta go

take on the, the $10 million project.

I know Joel from Heidi builds spell out.

I was just thinking

about that one up.

Like the most architectural builds that he did made the least amount of money.

And you go, he, he's a really simple recipe of just most carpenter,

most builders would love to be back just being a carpenter.

Yep.

Where Sam's sitting here right now, he is the carpenter.

He's the carpenter.

Do you know, I thought worked out another method of earning some

extra dollars so he doesn't have to go put that extra stress and.

As happy as I've seen anyone come into this podcast studio.

Yeah.

You're happy.

You seem happy.

Yeah.

I love that.

I love that you can say that

it's, yeah.

You say like, you feel happy, you don't feel jaded, or

there's nothing like, oh, like, yeah, like literally is happy is the word.

And I

just, I said to my, I said to one of my guys on Saturday when we're working

together and I have my machine helping us put all these big posts and stuff up.

So it was just a lot of fun.

Yeah.

And I said to Joe, I'm like, fuck, I could just do this.

Yeah.

I could just put the tool belt back on again.

Yeah.

And just build pergolas.

Like I was, I was like a second away just before COVID to

pivoting to just resco areas.

Why

don't you, I know, I know, but like, I know you

won't.

Do you know what I, so I feel like personally I'm on a really good path now.

Like, I think Sanctum homes, I think I've got a really great business.

We're, we're, we're putting really good products out there.

I like, I love dealing with clients.

The stuff with SBA.

So I dunno if you've heard of Sustainable Bills Alliance.

I've heard of them.

I dunno

much about it.

Yeah.

So I'm one of the founding directors there and our whole, I, our whole ethos

is to educate the broader industry.

It's not about passive house, it's just about building better.

Yeah.

Like it's aimed at the type of work you do.

Yeah.

So you might do a frame and go, no builder, we are gonna

do our corners like this.

'cause you can get more insulation.

More insulation.

Yeah.

It's just, it's, that doesn't change anything.

You do.

It's the little, it's a little 1% as that we trying to change.

Um,

and you know what really bothers me with building is that they won't

let the carpenter wrap the houses.

It's always like a, a third party like subcontract that comes in and we'll,

we'll do the frame and they'll make us put the windows in it at um, frame stage.

And someone else will come and wrap it and they never wrap it correctly.

Why

can't you say, we'll do that work as well as part of the package that we

offer?

It's literally just not an option.

Like, you can't go to them and say, no, we'll,

we'll do it.

Oh, so as in, as in, uh, volume builders have their Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

They'll have people that just come and just wrap their houses.

Do you know what I'm gonna, I, I, I dunno.

I hope I'm not proven wrong here, but I reckon that'll change soon.

I reckon there'll be, uh, uh, much stringent, uh, installation

requirements around your building wraps.

I feel like there needs to be a wrap.

Inspection

should

be a lot more

inspection.

I feel like that needs to be a thing.

Like it's, it's the fundamental barrier that separates the

outside from the inside.

How many, how many times have you gone past a building where

flapping around

and the brickies putting it on?

Yeah.

As they, as they go up and it's flapping around, I'm like, what?

But at the same time, it is a multimillion dollar architecturally

designed fucking building.

Yeah.

And the No using fall paper.

No, no disrespect to brickies.

Right.

But you guys aren't trained to put that stuff on.

Yes.

Yeah.

Like you should rock up and it's wrapped, ready to go, and then

you do the, you should be able to

squirt anywhere with the hose and it's happy days.

Yeah.

And you can do that without, oh, I was about to say, without using pro climber

products, maybe, uh, pro climber only.

Pro climber.

Maybe.

Maybe, maybe.

But a good building round X designer, X designer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Pro climber.com.

In, in a perfect world, everybody is using pro climber.

So,

um, I I just, it's a change of, yeah, it's a change of

philosophy and it's an adaption.

I, I do think with, it's probably the low hanging fruit of, of that

sector improving, and they'll see that just probably via social media

means be like, oh, we improve.

That information's there.

Carpenters wanna do it.

Why not?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I think it needs to come for a whole bunch of different names.

I don't, it should,

maybe I don't be except, and maybe this is me being naive in my own bubble, but

like I feel like that would be a complete waste of my client's time for mine.

A project like ours.

I get it.

But we're the exception.

So you take it on a, a whole industry wide and we might be the 0.0001%.

But again, you fix this the other side of the buildings.

Yeah, I

So do you reckon you'll go for your builder's license?

I don't know anymore.

I dunno.

I think I'd just be happy just

once

You

do carpentry

license then, and just, I'm a, I'm a licensed carpenter.

Set the example.

Is that useless?

I've heard that If you get a unlimited or unlimited, like you basically do the same

thing, you might as well get unlimited.

So

I'll challenge you on this.

What separates you from the carpenter that just finished their apprenticeship?

No, absolutely nothing

on

paper.

No nothing.

So why don't you and I, and I say this to my team, it's like,

just go get your li If you don't wanna use it, go get your license.

Like the fact that you go, Hey, I actually did more.

I became a licensed carpenter.

I'm not using it.

I don't care, but I'm licensed.

I

can do

that.

You know, just checking.

Like, I, I, if, if I hadn't have sat here for the last 40 minutes chatting with Sam,

I think I'd be on the same mindset as you.

But you just seem so happy doing what you're doing.

I'm just happy what I'm doing.

It's like, if it's not broken, don't fix it.

You don't.

I think that's okay though.

Like, I totally think that's okay.

Like I hear what you are saying, but I think this is also okay.

Yeah.

But I, what I'm probably getting at is like, and, and maybe it's as an

advocate, I'm talking from this as for him as an advocate of being a carpenter

and loving is like, I love carpentry.

I wanna show that like, carpentry should be championed.

I got my license.

We should have carpenters being licensed.

Like electricians, like plumbers.

Mm. So they're respected.

I mean, you'd be a great poster boy for that ad. Like, I

guarantee a hundred percent you'd

be a, a plumber.

Oh, they're licensed The electrician.

Oh, they're license.

Like that's cool and that's great.

But carpenter, I. I constantly say, you go down to Bunnings, get a nail

bag and a now gun and boom boom.

A carpenter, you don't even need a cert three.

So you don't

actually ever need that.

It's ridiculous.

So like at the end of

that's full disclosure, I am not a like qualified carpenter.

Yeah, but you're a builder.

You're okay.

So, but what I'm saying is I can, I can

slap timber together.

So like, let's, let's, let's say this, if they said carpenters had to

be licensed, would you Before that?

Yeah.

So a

hundred percent.

Why don't you be proactive and go get it and be like, I think we should do it.

I see your point.

I see your point.

Like, you like be the advocate, like be the person goes.

Yeah.

You could be a great advocate.

Like you go, you know what, I, I think you said before, don't be reactive.

Yeah.