In this episode of the Everyday Yellow™ podcast, Charisse M. Williams has a heartfelt conversation with Dr. Terence Lester, a storyteller, public scholar, speaker, community activist, and founder of Love Beyond Walls, a nonprofit organization raising awareness about poverty and homelessness. Dr. Lester shares his journey from experiencing homelessness himself to becoming a passionate advocate for the unhoused.

Dr. Lester discusses the importance of inner work, the power of community, and the role of vulnerability in personal growth. He also talks about his new children's book, Zion Learns to See: Opening Our Eyes to Homelessness, co-authored with his daughter to educate children on compassion and understanding.

Tune in to hear how Dr. Lester’s commitment to his purpose and his advocacy for the unhoused community can inspire you to live a life of meaning and impact.

If you’re interested in learning more about Dr. Lester's work, visit his website here or follow him on social media. You can also explore his books and other resources by visiting his website.

Stay connected and inspired! Join the Everyday Yellow™ Community for exclusive content, updates, and tips to help you live a rich and meaningful life. Join Here!

You can also learn more about Charisse and her work on her website.

We’d love to hear your feedback! Share your thoughts on this episode by clicking here.

To access this episode’s transcript, please click here. 

meaningful life. Today I am speaking with Doctor Terence Lester. Dr. Terence Lester is a

storyteller, public scholar, speaker, community activist, and author who is the founder and

executive director of Love Beyond Walls, a nonprofit organization focused on raising positive

poverty and homelessness awareness and community mobilization. He received his PhD with a

concentration in Public Policy and Social Change from Union Institute and University. His

campaigns on behalf of the poor have been featured in USA today, CNN, Black Enterprise,

essence and Reader's Digest. Terence has delivered countless lectures, sermons and

speeches at conferences, churches, schools, organizations, and companies across the country.

He has authored numerous books, including his recent children's book Zion's Learn to See

Opening Our Eyes to Homelessness. The book, co-authored with his daughter, is aimed at

educating children about compassion and homelessness. Welcome, Terence. How are you

doing today?

welcome and introduction.

more importantly, always humbling just to be, you know, asked to be a part of such a

special, podcast.

podcast recently, and the host read the other person's bio, and it was significantly longer. And

that person started to cry. He was like, I think we should get together and listen to someone else

read our bio. Yeah. Right.

the grind, so in the, busyness of doing the work and showing up in the world that we don't often

get a chance to pause and reflect on our journeys and how far we have come. And so it is a

practice. Every time I sit and listen to, someone read my bio, not to, absorb it as to make my

head bigger or whatever, but it's it's just the reminder of man, like, wow, I've journeyed a long

way, and I am grateful for every single step that has brought me to this moment.

remember how we met, Terence, and I think so. I'm a huge fan of your work. I follow you on

LinkedIn, and I think I just reached out to you cold for a conversation. If I can remember

correctly. And, you know, I had never done that before the pandemic and the number of people

that I have met. So to all the people listening, if the spirit moves you to reach out to someone

you're connected with virtually to talk in real life, do it because it's been so rewarding knowing

you, and I've gotten a chance to just see your work in person with Love Beyond Walls. And as

soon as Zion Learns To See came out, I bought it and had my little cousins take turns reading it

to each other. So I'm a huge fan. And the reason why I wanted to talk to you today is as a

human being and now as a professional coach, I have become obsessed with well-being and all

the different definitions and the research.

happiness or even pleasure, keeps a lot of people disappointed, right? That stuff is that that is

very fleeting when it comes to living a rich and meaningful life and the thing that is deeper and

more sustainable, and a key component of well-being is having a strong sense of meaning and

purpose. And it is clear to me that you do. So my first question for you is what comes up for you

when I say living a life of meaning and purpose?

especially in the times in which we live. You know, you can see it when you pick up your

smartphone that there is this common pursuit of all things that makes a person feel, for the

moment, a sense of accomplishment and arrival. but the reality is that we never arrive

anywhere. Right. and that we are constantly on a journey. And so for me, I learned that I was on

a journey, probably in my 20s, had a few, wise gods and sages and mentors, that were

vulnerable with me, that were much older than me, probably a little over twice my age.

wasn't in the a directive way where it's like you need to be focused on this. It was from them

sharing of their mistakes and the opportunities that they missed and how they were in constant

pursuit of things and those things didn't. They only provided momentary joy or happiness, and

they would oftentimes encourage me to really discover why I am here. And so when I hear the

word purpose, for me, it is the reason I breathe. It is the the thing that wakes me up in the

morning. It's the thing that bubbles in my heart. the thing that, can be a nuisance sometimes

when I'm not active in it. Right? it's the thing that makes me feel the essence of my being and

the essence of why I have breath in my body. And, for me, my purpose is to wake up every

single day and, create a world where no one is invisible. Right. And wherever I go, that is my

mission. And it just it gives me life.

in pursuit of something. I'm just living from the center of who I am. And and that, part of who I am

is, deeply tied to my purpose.

us back. How did you find this particular calling in terms of subject matter, experiences, stories.

What led you to this work?

can't fill it, you can't heal it. And you know how. clichés and dodges are, but I think the essence

of what he meant was the things that you actually go through give you a deeper sense of

empathy and understanding and proximity to, the very thing that is tied to your purpose or could

be taught to your purpose. And for me, you know, life experience of, you know, being raised in

poverty, single mom experiencing homelessness, as early as age 16, briefly, dropping out of

high school.

and beg for change and be overlooked or dismiss, which is deeply connected to why I advocate

so hard for those who are unhoused and have social stigma that hovers above them. Right. And

so, you know, when I started to really discover that I don't have to run from my pain, that my

pain within itself can create a power and a passion. as I have overcome many of those things

that I've listed, to show up in the world, to serve, and to give people another perspective of a

population that they haven't been proximate to. And so, yeah, you know, a lot of my purpose

and passion was born from pain at first, but the pain itself gave me an invitation to do the inner

work. And the inner work became the bridge that led me into the work I'm doing today.

going to ask you about the journey, the organization, the books, all the ways that you're

expressing this purpose.

look like? Like, what did you do?

And I think sometimes we run from questions because questions are tied to introspective

introspection. Right. like, why do I really feel this way? I'll never forget I was reading this book,

earlier in my younger life, and there was this book, and there was a quote in the book that just,

like, leaped off the pages. It says, Sometimes God will use your greatest pain to lead you to

your destiny. And I thought, oh, that's deep. And so one of the challenges for me was to really

sit with that, but also ask myself a question, that caused me to do that introspective work. And

so the question was, what has paid me? And my response is, was really restrictive in the way

that I responded. I got in front of a whiteboard, and I only wanted to use single word answers.

Black Sheep or, you know, lonely. And it made me realize that although at that moment I was in

housing, I had completed education, I was still wrestling with sociological homelessness. And

that was deep. And I was like, wow. Like, there's something to that. and so I wanted to explore

that further. The second thing is I had to become vulnerable, right? I sought out specific people

who had wisdom right from various fields. at that time, I was in the community of faith. So I was

in church, and so it was easily accessible to reach out to older men who had lived, some life.

And I started to ask questions about life, about, you know, understanding certain things. And as

I ask questions that created space for me to be vulnerable and without thinking, I wasn't asking

for feedback. But oftentimes people would just give me feedback. Not that was like destructive

of putting me down, but like things that they notice in me that I did not notice in myself.

allowed my mind to understand or unpacked because of all of the trauma. And then, the the

third step was, creating an actual plan for healing. Right. And so that involve, therapy and that

involved, doing work. I've done genealogical family trees trying to understand, like, you know,

how things have been passed down generally generationally, in terms of care, the rates of

behaviors, you know, all of those things, started reading. Right. I think one of the greatest things

that you can do is read the work and the, the words of someone else that can help you build

your imagination of who you can become. And so I use, reading, as a way to, escape in a

healthy way. when I couldn't travel somewhere, I read, when I couldn't visit a certain place or

talk or access a certain, professional or successful person. I read and I think, the way that I put

it in my to myself allows me to grow because diet is more than food.

what we listen to, what we take in. Right. And so I think all of that started to grow me in the way

where my, my, my worldview expanded, the perception of myself grew. And, I think a part of all

of that gave me courage to take a step forward.

you were so courageous. Like, so. Just to recap, I heard self inquiry and it is. As a coach, I live

in questions like I don't know the answers, but we all do. If we ask the right questions and sit

with that. I heard reaching out to elders for conversations during which you got advice, feedback

and the vulnerability that that took, which is courageous. And then putting a plan in place for

healing and all those resources that you access. I was sitting here thinking this brother was so

wise in his early 20s. I want to know.

lot of emotional intelligence.

Dr. Terence Lester 00:15:13 I get chills, thinking about it. Oh, really emotional right now I in. I

was given this talk one time at, Creative Mornings, and, one of my points was that commitment

was is born out of survival, right. And what I actually meant by that is, sometimes when you are

in survival mode, you have no other choice but but to commit. and that takes a certain level of

courage, right? If you are, you know, driving in a car and your gas hand is on E and you, you

know, find yourself on the side of the road, but you know that you're headed in the destination.

You can do 1 or 2 things. You can stay in the car and do nothing, or the out of survival is going

to, drive you to continue to make it to your destination no matter what it takes. If that's walking, if

that's hitchhiking, whatever it is.

determination that, was basically born out of scarcity. You know, there's a difference between

commitment and interest. You know, when you're interested in something, you can do it and you

can casually say, not for me, but when you are committed to to something, you do it because it's

necessary. And I think I had that that drive in me and that was born out of not wanting to

replicate what I was seeing in my environment. Not wanting to succumb to the very things that

were making me feel like there has to be something better than what I'm experiencing. And I

became so dissatisfied with where I was that I made a commitment to the unknown. I said to

myself that, you know, I don't know what's on the other side, but I know this isn't it. And, I

committed myself. And I think that that shift in mindset, became the thing that grew my

resilience.

Charisse M. Williams 00:18:03 You said you didn't want to replicate what you had seen around

you and had you not done that. You and your your impact on the world and all these beautiful

things that you've created would not exist, and maybe you would have caused harm in the world.

And I say that because sometimes trauma and pain, if unhealed, right? Yep. Can cause us to do

harm to ourselves and other people. So I want to ask you about the healing journey you talked

about. I'm huge on resources and we all need lots of resources, including each other, to heal. So

tell me about some of the things that you did that that helped support you on your healing

journey.

times when we hear the word community, we think of like, oh, you have to be in a crowd. But

community for me were, littered with a few committed people who were in my inner circle of my

life. Like, I can remember Ronald Eason, who passed away last year, sent me a text message

that read, I'm proud of the man you've become.

their, you know, mid 50s. And I was youngest, 21 years old. Mr. Eason helped to pay for me to

go to school. he walked my wife down the aisle. I've been married 18 years, this past week. he

was the person that, you know, told me that I had more of me. You know, because sometimes

people don't become what you want them to become. They become what you encourage them

to become. And so he was a champion of mine, you know, and, I miss him. But, the impact that

he had on me is being reflected in the way that I show up in the world. I remember Mr. Moore,

who, when I was 16.5 years old and sleeping in the park. had me come over to his house in my

car and told me to roll down the window, and it was the first man that I could ever look in his

eyes. And he told me that one day I was going to be a leader.

my wife and to, you know, think about one day using my story. in the in the context of an

organization to help people that I get most relate to. the year that I started Love Beyond Walls,

he passed away, and his family invited me back, to speak at his funeral. And I'll never forget

looking out in the crowd and seeing, you know, people who were formerly, addicted to drugs or

experiencing homelessness. Like he lived a life of seeing other people and proximity to other

people. And it wasn't about status or claim. It was meaning, right? It was this. You know, he

found a lot of purpose in that. And I can go on and on. I can I can tell you about Doctor Joe

when I was in, working towards my bachelor's degree, when no other family member would

allow me to use their car, I was working a job in the warehouse. I would literally lie in boxes up

in the back of the warehouse during my downtime and practice my oratory skills and speak and

Doctor Joe, one day I was going to drop out of school because my car had broken down and I

was in class, and I just said this in front of the class that I don't know if I'm going to finish school

in the middle of, like one of his lectures.

his car keys and said, my wife is a nurse. I teach classes all day. I'll get to work. He handed me

his car keys and loan. He his, expert expert, expedition for an entire year until I finish college.

You know, my life has been littered with the generosity of people who have seen me, wherever I

was in my context and met me with love, acceptance, belonging and all of the things that, are,

you know, at the core of who I am as a person. And so what better way to honor, the collective

impact of community who gave me space to heal, process, to be vulnerable, to work out, the

things that I was questioning within myself than to show up in the world and see others. And so I

would say for me, community and the way people have, served and been generous with me in

terms of time and whatever it was. and then that vulnerability piece feeling safe enough to share

and I think sometimes, people aren't able to start their healing journeys because they haven't

found a safe space.

encountered on your journey. And when you when you said vulnerability, I was thinking what a

blessing that so many people have shown up for you in that way. And if you are not vulnerable, if

you have if you had not stood up and you you probably didn't do it intentionally, like someone's

gonna help me out. But if you hadn't said out loud, I don't know if I'm going to finish if you hadn't

gone to ask for guidance, support. I think sometimes pride, desire to show that we have it all

figured out and many other things. Write family stories. Don't air your dirty laundry. Don't let

people know what you're going through. Any number of things can block us from receiving that

beautiful support that you receive. And somehow you you opened yourself up to receiving it.

writes this book, I think it's called With open hands. Right.

uses this analogy. He says, we walk around with clenched fists and it that represents, like us

being closed off, not being open. You know, maybe we encountered something that, you know,

rightfully so, calls us to put up our guards and we clench our fists, or we become a clenched

fists and it restricts us from the next new thing, or the next thing that can potentially be the thing

that causes you to grow, significantly more than what you have experienced. when I was doing,

therapy, one of the, the things that we explored was not post-traumatic stress as a theory, but

there's a new emergence of, you know, kind of a alternative reframing of it, which is

post-traumatic growth. And so, the question is, how has what, I've experienced, caused me to

grow and do I have enough courage to even explore that or even open myself up enough to

realize the beautiful ways in which something that has been so destructive has changed me and

grow me for the better.

gone through. And most times, when people really do that introspective work, it causes them

to

find meaning and purpose in different ways. And when they show up in the world, they have a

New Zealand, a new passion. Even if you're managing the grief of what was the loss, right?

because loss means that love is connected. you cared about this thing. You cared about what

was. but you can use integration, right? As a framework to say, how can this thing that I've gone

through show up and be integrated in the new way, express myself in the world. And most times

that is connected to meaning and purpose.

across that in researching my book, and I included some of the ideas in the chapter on

resilience. And it's interesting. I've heard a lot of people say, I don't know, it could be a meme or

whatever. Like, I'm tired of hearing about resilience.

as a black person or as a person of color. There's a resentment. Human beings need resilience.

Resilience. Period. Things are going to happen. Like you said, we're going to have losses. I

loved what you shared about that. There was love there. We're going to have losses. We're

going to have physical pain. You have been through some things that I want to just ask you

about overcoming some of the challenges along the way. everywhere I turn, people are

experiencing pain in their bodies. We live in human bodies that get disease, that get illness, they

get acts, accidents, whatever it is. So we all need resilience, and we get to choose what story

we tell ourselves about what we've been through. And, yeah, I heard that I mentioned this in

another episode, but I'll mention it again. I knew about reframing, but I heard this whole podcast

about narrative psychology and how you get to decide the chapter breaks, right? You can have

a difficult situation, something bad happens, and you can be like, my life was going on and this

thing happened.

what you're suggesting, figure out how you learned, how you grew, how your purpose and

mission in life got redirected. And you draw the chapter line there. It's a completely different

story, and that experience becomes integrated, as you say, into our entire life experience, and

we feel differently about it.

Lakoff says reframing is a part of social change. Like, what we're doing outwardly to change or

balance the scales of injustice in the world, and create more equity. But a part of reframing, too,

is, reframing our language the way that we talk about things, but also talk to ourselves about

ourselves. Right. which is the narrative psychology that you mentioned, you know, what

narrative are you telling yourself? You have more conversations with yourself than any other

person in the world, right? And so, you know, the conversations that you're having within about

what happened, you know, which sometimes is, is good like to name.

happened to us? So we don't live in a constant cycle of, self rejection, you know, self-sabotage

my wife had just received this award, for the work that we do with the organization, by the

National Urban League, Greater Atlanta. we had gone out to dinner, celebrate with friends. We

she would drive, and she agreed. And I found myself asleep in the passenger seat. I was, you

know, just really tired. And so she started driving. And the next thing I know, I'm waking up on

the ground and EMTs are running over to my body. And I remember hearing, one guy yell out of

turn them over to see if he's still alive. and I noticed, like, a crowd of feet, you know, all

surrounding my body.

my wife limping around the car. We had gotten hit. And next thing I know, I blacked out. And I

wake up again in the hospital with a surgeon standing over me, saying that we need to operate

very quickly. my femur had broken my hip and was, in my pelvis and was near a nerve. I had

some nerve damage and ten hours later I wake up and the doctor was telling me that it might be

a year to a year and a half before I could walk again, and I had to sit with that, because that

means that I would not have mobility and I would have to learn how to walk again. And I'm living

with a disability at this point. And so I was in a hospital for a month, came home. I was confined

to a bed for maybe five months. I couldn't do anything on my own, and I had to wrestle and

grapple with is my worth to mobility? I'll never forget having conversation with my wife, and she

just reminded me that my worthiness is not tied to productivity.

Charisse M. Williams 00:33:10 I'm just say that again, please.

human being, not a human doing. And, I found a lot of safety and courage in that and reframing,

this idea of worth, because everything tells you to produce, produce, always be on the grind,

always give. You know as much as you can. Like I have been in survival. I made the connection.

Like my whole life, I had been using my physical body to produce, to become something, to be

something, to overcome something. And there was this just this moment where I had to sit for

the first time in my life and say to myself, and name it out loud, that I am worth it if I never did

another thing in my life.

Dr. Terence Lester 00:34:05 And, Yeah, it changed me. And out of that came courage, you

know, and a rediscovery of my voice and a rediscovery of the things that I'm passionate about

and why.

boundaries and how precious life is, and what type of memories I wanted to create and what

really is legacy is legacy. Just doing a bunch of work and having somebody celebrate you for all

your accomplishment? Or is legacy more about the connections and community and loving the

people around you in real time? Right. and creating memories and, you know, where moments

become memories, right? And so that's kind of where I am now. I'm still doing work, but work is

not my priority. Wellness is my priority. Worthiness is my priority. Loving people around me.

Being present. Not living too much in the future. Not dwelling in the past. But like asking myself

what is this moment bring to me right now? And every day is a gift right now. And, that's kind of

the work I'm doing now.

conversation would lead, because we haven't even talked about your organization.

want you to tell us. Talk about Love Beyond walls, the mission, what you do, the impact you

want to have, and then bring it forward. Like I'd like to hear how you approached work before

this defining moment that you just talked about and how you've approached it after, like what

has been, kind of the shift. Obviously, the mission is still really important to you, but you talked

about some other things your wellness worthiness, your relationships. So multi-part question,

but start anywhere.

you know, it started from just wanting to be proximate to people who are unhoused, by building

relationships in a way that allows us to just be with people where they were. most people without

an address or somehow criminal law stigmatized, publicly sanitized and viewed in a way, where

worth, right and value isn't at the core of their humanity. And so we started when we were really,

really young, just going out and being with people.

21, and we were college students and kind of like struggling. And so we said to ourselves,

instead of complaining about where we are, let's just go be with people and serve. And we

started doing that for a number of years, probably seven years prior to lesbian was actually

forming as an organization. When we approached 30. I remember going to my wife one day and

I asked her if I could do a campaign, and she she was like, what do you want to do? I was like, I

want to go and live underneath the bridge. she's like, what? And I was like, yeah, I was in the

city and I was talking to the guy named.

Dr. Terence Lester 00:37:57 And he told me that, you know, there were some shelters and, the

way that it was set up and designed, like, he felt more comfortable living on the streets than

being involved in some of the organizations, which is really critical, right, when you think about

it.

really providing? And do people feel safe enough and feel like they belong if they enter into

those spaces? And so he challenged me. He says, why don't you do it? And I told my wife

that.

And long story short, that was the founding of our organization. I started it with a cell phone,

living on the streets, underneath a bridge in the city of Atlanta. I did that twice for a little over a

month and a half. put out of shelters, walked down to buy, shelter workers, watched shelter

workers steal donations. turned away in the middle of winter for being five minutes late when it

was freezing cold. put out of public spaces. I mean, the whole night. But really use this as a way

to raise awareness about this subject and literally start this empathetic campaign of how do we

create more of a understanding of the plight of what people are actually going through on the

other side of homelessness.

members. A couple months later, we had a building. next thing I know, we were like, had a

budget and we were providing all sorts of resources like reunification program, helping people

recover their identification cards, get access to food, showers, you know, access to just water.

Right? Because sometimes it's hot in the summer and people get really dehydrated. clothing

closets, the ability to wash your clothes. Right? some of the most basic things that people don't

really think about when they have housing. we became that in the community. And, you know,

fast forwarding now. we've done a number of things, multiple mobile units that serves the

population. We launched the first museum in the United States that represents the subject of

homelessness called the Dignity Museum. we've created curriculum, done trainings. I mean, the

whole night, and during Covid, we launched a campaign called Love Sinks In that went. It

started in the city with 15 hand-washing stations, giving people who are unhoused access to

wash their hands.

Charisse M. Williams 00:40:44 I saw that, yeah. I thought yeah. Wow. Brilliant. Simple and

essential.

the country. you know, just loving people and I mean a lot of things. But for me, I think at the

core of who we are, all of those things are just vehicles to build relationships. to be close to

people, to know their stories, to humanize their stories and to understand their journey. And

that's what I love to do.

important that people hear this. You talked about we talked about language and reframing and

some things that I've learned over the years. And that you're demonstrating is that you talk

about homelessness as a state, and you refer to the people themselves as unhoused. Why is

that language so important as it ties back to dignity and worthiness and some of these other

things we talked about?

person over their plight.

people being problems. Right. And there's a difference in that. And so I use experiencing

homelessness because homelessness is an experience. It's not a person or unhoused. because

being unhoused or without an address is a temporary state. Right. And then lastly, I just think

about how, homelessness is one of the only justice issues where you can be labeled for

something that you don't have and then punished for trying to survive it. I mean, like, if I didn't

have a cup, you wouldn't call me cup list. Or if I didn't have a bag, you wouldn't call me bagless,

right? And so why do we label people for going through this experience and then leverage the

experience to try to publicly sanitize them or view them in a derogatory way? And all people who

are experiencing this flight have gone through this flight or come into this flight from various

walks of life. Everybody's story is uniquely different, and we need to honor that, because when

we talk about people who are unhoused, that's somebody's brother, sister, cousin, you know,

person, grandmother, grandfather.

have to be very careful in how we use language to, describe people.

humanity, truly, we wouldn't have some of the legislation that we have literally criminalizing

homelessness, this that temporary state of being, being in certain places, all these things that on

a policy level, I think we're having a moment where it's getting a little bit worse, maybe before it

gets better. It is.

gives cities and states the ability to create laws to punish a person for being unhoused, even if

there aren't enough available beds, to meet the need. And, you know, it's a violation of the

Eighth Amendment, right? So of people who are unhoused. And it just it takes us further back

and further away from solving the plight. You know, and I think our inability to relate to

homelessness, creates the barrier and keeps us from being able to solve it, not realizing that at

any given moment anyone could find themselves on the other side of the sign asking for

change.

you are doing this work, while also, I loved our conversation about your own well-being and your

approach to work and productivity. I find because I spent my entire career in the nonprofit sector

before becoming a coach. I had heard lots of conversations about productivity as it related to,

you know, working at for profits. But what I've learned from working in the nonprofit sector

myself and now coaching lots of leaders, especially leaders who have a personal experience

with whatever they're working on. The tendency to overwork is even greater, is even greater.

And you combine that with like, duty and, survivor's guilt and all this thing. I coached this brilliant

woman who ran an or who ran an organization that was about healing and wellness. And we

were talking and it's funny, our coaching conversations start off as one thing and then they end

with another. And I was just talking to asking about her and what she needed. And at the end of

every conversation, I'm asking people their action items.

this capital campaign to create this, Like oasis, like spa relaxation space and yoga space in the

middle of the city. She was like, I have never done any of the services for myself in two years.

This is our first hour. She was like, I am not seeing in myself the needs that my community has

that caused me to spend two hours creating this space. So thank you for that. Tell us how

people where people can find you and also how they can support your work or get involved.

you. thank you for your voice. the space that you're creating and the way in which you are

coming alongside leaders who find themselves at a crossroads. I think this is essential work.

And I think, If you're listening to this, you know, soak it up because you never know the fruit that

will grow, from consuming just this, this, wisdom that you're creating.

are on Terence Lester. That I am Terence Lester or my website. Terence Lester. Org if you

want to look up our organization, that's Love Beyond Walls, and that's at Love Beyond Walls

on all social media channels.

Terence. How I feel fuller and better and wiser from having had this conversation with you.

Thank you so much.

Charisse M. Williams 00:48:35 Have a wonderful day.