Try the "History or Drive" history travel app

Explore John Wesley Powell's legendary 1869 river expedition through the Grand Canyon—the daring exploration that mapped the unmapped and redefined American adventure.

Scott and Jenn share the hidden history visitors miss, take you inside Powell's groundbreaking scientific journey, and reveal why this historic travel destination tells a story far deeper than scenic views.

Perfect for your next Western road trip.

Planning a trip there? Find the history along the way with History or Drive

The Art of Adventure Podcast

-------------------------------------------------------

🗺️ Want to visit the places we talked about? We've mapped them all (and more) in History or Drive. 🗺️

🚗 Download our History or Drive travel app

Turn your next road trip into an American history adventure.

Discover hidden local history, epic historic sites, battlefields, and maps with easy, one-click driving directions — history and travel right in the palm of your hand!

-------------------------------------------------------

🎙️ Talk with History is the #1 Road Trip podcast for History Travelers!

⭐ Enjoying the journey? Leave us a quick review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to help other history and travel lovers find the show!

-------------------------------------------------------

You're standing on the precipice of an abyss so vast that the opposite rim looks

like another country, painted in bands of crimson, gold, and ancient limestone.

It stretches 277 miles long, plunges over a mile straight down, and exposes

nearly two billion years of Earth's crust.

For centuries, native tribes lived along its cliffs, and Spanish explorers, guided

by Hopi, stood at the rim in awe in 1540.

But the true turning point in unlocking its secrets came in 1869

when a one-armed Civil War veteran and geologist named Major John Wesley

Powell took nine men in four wooden boats straight into the violent,

uncharted rapids of the Colorado River.

Facing towering walls, dwindling rations, and roaring waters that threatened

to swallow them whole, Powell's expedition mapped the heart of the

great chasm, transforming the canyon from a blank spot on the map into a

place of legend in the American West.

Decades later, President Theodore Roosevelt stood on its edge and

declared, "You cannot improve on it. Keep it for your children

and your children's children."

Welcome to Talk with History.

One filmmaker, one historian, meeting history-inspired world

travels for the curious, the history lovers, and the explorer in us all.

I am your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian, Jenn.

Hello.

Today, we're taking another incredible detour from our

Route 66 Centennial Journey.

Driving across northern Arizona, we turn north off the mother road to

visit one of the seven natural wonders of the world, the Grand Canyon.

As a first-time visitor, standing on the edge of the

South Rim is completely humbling.

We're taking you along the historic South Rim Trail, sharing what it's

like to see those endless rock layers in person, and keeping an eye out for

the massive California condor soaring overhead with its 10-foot wingspan.

We're also diving deep into the canyon's human history, from early

mining ventures that quickly gave way to tourism, to the Civilian

Conservation Corps efforts of the 1930s.

And of course, we're exploring the legendary expedition of John Wesley

Powell, how a one-armed combat veteran braved the rapids, mapped the gorge,

and sparked the scientific and public fascination that helped establish the

Grand Canyon National Park in 1919.

I'm Scott Bennie, so lace up your boots and watch your step.

We're exploring the rim and the river at the Grand Canyon.

All right.

So Jenn, this was one- this was, this was not a, a Route 66 stop.

No.

Right?

You kinda have to go, you have to veer off north if you're driving through Arizona.

Yes.

And you're driving through the plateaus, and you gotta hang right, and you gotta

start heading up north to northern Arizona towards the Grand Canyon.

Now I had been there as a kid.

It had been very, very long time for me, probably since I was maybe

10, 11, 12, somewhere around there.

Yes.

But you had never been to the Grand Canyon.

I have never been, and you're right.

I mean, this shows Route 66 and as we're doing this Route 66 100th anniversary

on, um, Talk With History, you can see the Grand Canyon is on here.

Right.

So it is places people sometimes will veer off and see some of these natural

landmarks, and the Grand Canyon was a big one, and since we had the kids

with us, we wanted to go there, and we made a point to stay in the park.

Yeah.

We did, we, we did it up right.

You can stay outside the park.

It's just like any Yellowstone, Yosemite.

You can stay outside the park.

You can s- pay a little more and stay inside the park.

We were doing just one night, and we decided to pull the trigger and stay in

the park, and it was totally worth it.

It was worth it, and, and if you know anything about us, Scott and I used

to do a lot at Yosemite, and we always stayed in the valley 'cause we know

the difference between staying in the valley and staying outside of the park.

It's always like a good 30-minute difference, and traffic happens midday,

and so then you're just out of it.

So it's so nice to just have that easy access.

Plus, if you stay in the park, it's usually walkable.

Yeah.

So you can walk to where you wanna go, and so I made a point to look up some

lodges that were there on the South Rim.

We stayed there with the family of five.

We were able to get a cot, so it was nice.

The, the room was big enough.

We were all very comfortable.

We had like a balcony, so it was very nice for us.

Plus, in the park they always have good food options, and this, they had

a nice cafeteria right by our lodge, a great gift shop right by our lodge,

and then if you just walked a little farther, there was the Grand Canyon.

Yeah.

So

it

was great.

It, it was very, very walkable, and I think you hit it on the head is when

you stay in the park you don't have to drive around to all the places 'cause

they have great buses that are taking you from bus stop to bus stop, right?

Some people will bring their bikes, and they'll ride their bikes around.

We do that in Yosemite all the time.

Mm-hmm.

But that was one of the huge things, and in the video you'll see, and what we can

mention it later, we won't hit on it too much, I actually went for a morning run.

I just ran from my room over to the South Rim trail and ran along

the South Rim trail, and then I realized we were at seven th- 7,000

feet of elevation, and, and I, I was huffing and puffing pretty quickly.

But it was absolutely beautiful, and so we did this- It's worth it … it was totally

worth it, to- I, I think totally worth it.

Um, we, we definitely wanna go back.

Jenn and I wanna go back and spend a week there, two weeks there.

We'd love to go down to the, you know, to the canyon floor.

We didn't get to do that this time, but we did the South Rim, and we

talked a little bit about the history and kinda learned about how it

became a national park and all that.

Yeah, and they have a really great groomed t- trail.

So if you're, it, it's very easy to walk.

You don't need trekking poles.

You really don't even need hiking boots.

You could probably do it in your sneakers.

We did it in our sneakers.

Yep.

It was very easy for the kids.

They complained a little, the youngest, but- It's

like a mile and a half

yeah, it was very easy.

And like Scott said, there's trams that pick you up and take you all over.

What was neat about this trip, and we've talked about it before, is

it was right after the World Cup, so there was so many foreign people

who were visiting the Grand Canyon.

And we talked to people from Germany.

We could hear the different accents.

People would ask us questions to take pictures for them, and they only basically

knew, "Can you take picture?" Right?

And so we were just very, uh, welcoming, "Welcome to America,"

you know, and, and we're all in awe of the beauty of this canyon.

I had never seen it before, so walking up to it, I just

couldn't take my eyes off it.

And you probably see in the video, our kids, everybody, we just couldn't

stop looking at how beautiful and, and just massive this canyon is.

And you can see the different colors of the rock sediments along the side of

the canyon, and it is just breathtaking.

So, and as you walk, you get a different view-

Yeah

every time.

So it's, it's really neat to go and do.

Yeah, and of course they have signs all along the way, and they've got

spots where they'll kind of, they have, like, this little brass outline of the

landscape y- you see across the canyon, and it'll tell you what the names of the

different points are and stuff like that.

And it was neat because you truly are looking across to the North Rim.

You can see the other side, but if you l- if you're standing there, right,

and if you look left, you cannot see the end of the canyon itself.

As far as the eye can see, you just see the canyon going on and on and

on and on and on into the horizon.

And so that was really, really cool to, to see that kind of scale.

And it truly was a canyon.

You could see the other side, but you couldn't see the end of it.

Yeah, I mean, it covers over a million acres.

It's 1.2 million acres of, of land, and so when you really think

about how- massive this park is.

It's a huge park.

Now, most people go to the South Rim.

When you're visiting the Grand Canyon, that's where most of the visitors go.

But you can go to the North Rim.

It's just a, a lot longer to get out there from Route 66.

And know your elevation will be higher there, so you'll be looking

down, uh, to the South Rim, and down.

And it's much more wooded and, uh, not as built up as the South Rim is.

But, uh, that, you can visit both of those.

And of course, you can do tours that take you to the river

and down to the canyon floor.

We didn't do any of that, but you could see trails down there.

And from what we understand, they still don't have any motorized

vehicles to take you down to the canyon floor, but there's still mules.

Yeah.

And you can ride a mule down to the canyon floor.

We didn't get to do that, but, uh, hopefully eventually we will.

Now, this was the 15th site to be made a national park.

Mm. And like Scott said, it, it celebrated its 100th anniversary

February 26, uh, 2019, so it was in 1919 that it became a national park.

And when you talk about the history of the park, there's a lot of history

with the park being made, like how did the glacier come through,

and how did it- Yeah … make this big crack in America's landscape?

But then it's also who were the first peoples to kind of see it and to be there,

and so they celebrate, um, it became well known to Americans in the 1880s

when the railroads were able to come in and build railroads through there.

But we talk about Powell, and Powell is a Civil War veteran, and he's a man who,

uh, was very well known for discovering rivers or, uh, exploring rivers.

He, he rode the Mississippi River, he rode the Ohio River.

He took the Ohio River from Pittsburgh all the way to the Mississippi.

He took the Mississippi all the way down from Missouri all the way down

to, uh, to the, to the sea they say.

So it's not like it was his first time on a river.

So he, he was kind of like d- he's like a professional explorer almost.

Professional explorer almost.

Now, he loses his arm in Shiloh as… And we talked about, um,

we've been to Shiloh before.

Uh, he's hit with a mini ball, uh, in the arm, and he loses

his right arm below the elbow.

Yeah, he was, a- as I read it, he was a Union-

Yes

… U- U- Union officer, and what I read was like he literally was like raising

his arm to say, you know, "Fi- fire the cannons," and that's when he got hit.

Yep.

Yes.

And so he's doing all of this one-armed, which I also think

is very, uh, heroic of him.

Now, he's made, in 1881, uh, it's Garfield who will di- uh, will direct

him as the US geological surveyor.

Uh, and he holds that position for about 13 years.

Now, that's after the Grand Canyon.

After the Grand Canyon.

After he explores the Grand Canyon.

But also know that it's because of his experience doing this that he's gonna

hold that position and start to do more of this for America, but when we

talk about the, uh, actual expedition.

Yeah, so let, let me talk about the actual expedi- expedition

because this was classic how we do Talk With History things.

It's like we went there, and I was like, "Um, you know, I'm sure

there's probably a podcast about the Grand Canyon." And so I Google.

You know, I go into the Apple Podcast, and I was like, you know, history of the

Grand Canyon, and I find this podcast.

I think we've talked about this before.

Uh, it was like The Adventure Podcast, and he talks, and he has one episode on the

history of the Grand Canyon, specifically about John Wes- Major John Wesley Powell.

Mm-hmm.

And so it was a really good episode, and I'll link that in, in the show

notes if you guys wanna listen to it.

But, uh, it… That kind of, that's what generated my interest in him, and

actually I think I'm gonna go back and listen to more of this podcast because a

lot of the stuff that they cover is stuff that I, that I find pretty interesting.

But John Wesley Powell, again major for the Union Army- He gets his

kind of arm shot and he has to kinda amputate it there right at, at Shiloh.

Now in 1869 is when he's doing his expedition down the Grand Canyon.

S- so just so, just so you know, he's been in the Rocky

Mountain territory since 1867.

So, so the war's over 1865.

Yeah.

He comes in 1867.

He brings a party of 11 men and one woman, and guess who the one woman is?

His wife.

Oh, really?

So his wife comes with him, and they explore Pikes Peak.

They make an ascent to Pikes Peak.

They have further explorations, and th- they decide to stay out there.

The Powells will stay out there, and this is when he's gonna make his Colorado River

expedition.

And so he, so he and his wife, and I don't know if his wife was with him, he was

actually the first to summit Longs Peak.

Mm-hmm.

Like, the very first person.

So this is Mr. Outdoorsman guy, right?

So in, and that was in the 1860s, so he's, he's hi- he's first

one to climb Longs Peak, he ascended Pikes Peak with his wife.

Now, in May of 1869 is when he launches.

So he uses the railroad that Jenn mentioned earlier to get everything

out to, down to, uh, where they're gonna, they're gonna kick off.

And they actually kick off from Wyoming- Yep … in the Green River there.

Yep.

So setting off with nine men.

And they set off with these huge wooden boats, and these are kind of the, the kind

of boats, I forget what they called them.

Rowboats.

And but these are, these are boats that you would typically

see in, like, a sea harbor cutting through waves and stuff like that.

And his thought was, "Hey, I'm giving you these huge wooden boats with months

and months of supplies to cut through the waves." And the reality of it is, a little

foreshadowing here, he, they actually made it worse because they were so big they

couldn't navigate around rocks, right?

And if you know anything about, uh, modern-day, you know,

going down- The Colorado River

the, the, the Colorado River, it's all white water, it's all

white water rafting and all that stuff, and you have to navigate.

And again, nobody had done this.

And so the, the anecdote that they were using in this other podcast is they knew

more about the surface of the moon through just telescopes and everything than

they knew about the Grand Canyon, right?

So that, that was kind of an interesting- Can

you imagine these four boats, uh, laden with 10 men-

Yep … and food for 10 months.

10 months, and they brought, like, nails because they actually thought, John

Wesley Powell thought that the river was gonna freeze over- Mm-hmm … and they

were gonna have to, to, to hunker down for the winter, like build a log cabin.

So they brought nails and supplies for all that stuff.

So they br- obviously they were ill-prepared for this.

All right?

And the interesting thing is too is he didn't, when he hired the men for this

e- expedition, he didn't hire soldiers, which was much more normal at the time.

Mm-hmm.

He kinda went out and found these, like, rough, rough and tumble mountain men.

Hunters,

trappers.

Hunters, trappers, thinking that they could hunt and trap their

food while they were down there.

So they kick off in June, uh, in May of 1869.

In June of 1869, there's, one of the boats hits a rock, splits in

half, and destroys one third of their food, gear, and clothing.

Now they had kind of anticipated this.

They had, it, in the other podcast, it talks about how they could have

had more men in these boats, but they decided to have less 'cause they

anticipated potentially losing a boat.

So he was trying to pre-plan a little bit.

But how, you know, they're grinding away, kind of trying to get down the Colorado.

So they're gonna take the Green River till it's convolu- convoluents- Right

to the Colorado.

Right.

And so they're getting through, and obviously they're having a tough

time getting down the Colorado.

I'll, I'll, I'll keep it short because I, I really do find this interesting.

But in August, uh, it's now named Separation Rapid, right?

So they're, they're getting down, they're starting to get hungry because

they don't have enough food, they don't have the right kind of food.

They've lost a boat or two, and so they get to what's

now called Separation Rapids.

They're confronted by a monstrous rapid.

So three men had, who'd been with him the whole way, they refuse to stay

on the river, and they're like, "We, we're not doing this anymore." I think

a couple people had died already.

Yep, so Frank Goodman, uh, it's William Dunn, and Ormeil Howland, they all leave.

So when you think you only have nine men, you just lost a third.

Yeah.

And then so they, they say, "Hey, we, we're not doing this anymore.

We're practically starving. We're gonna hike up and out," and they

choose to hike 75 miles through the desert to the Mormon settlement.

Those three actually vanish.

They never, they never hear from them again, so they

probably died in the desert.

History's a mystery.

Yeah.

Who knows what you ever stumble across if you're out there hiking.

Now, the, the sad part of that story is not that they were… Well, it's

both that they were never heard from again, but then 24 hours later, John

Wesley Powell and the remainer of- remainder of his crew, 20… And within

24 hours, they were out of the Grand Canyon and at that Mormon settlement.

So had these three stuck with them for an extra 24 hours, they

would've made it all the way through.

Yes.

Now, they were- They were starved, they were wearing rags, they smelled

bad, they hadn't eaten, and they got to this Mormon settlement, and the

Mormons just kinda took care of them.

And like, they, these guys couldn't even barely talk when

they, when they first got there.

It's a lot like when we talked about Lewis and Clark.

Yeah.

When they make it to some of these, uh, Indian resid- i- Indian, uh, communities,

and they're just barely alive.

And the American Indians really could have, like, killed them-

Yeah … because they were so weak, but they didn't, they took care of them.

It's the same kinda thing.

Now, their whole, uh, travel is 930 miles.

Yeah.

Now, his wife is not with him on this.

No.

It's all men.

Yep.

Uh, and like Scott said, when you're out there and you're working as hard

as they're working, we talked about the Lewis and Clark Expedition,

and you're not able to eat fat-

Yep

… ' cause you're just eating game with no fat, you become very gaunt and skinny, and

that's what was happening to these men.

Yeah.

And, and so there's a couple interesting facts, and this was

actually interesting that I hadn't seen.

So when you're white water rafting today, right, you're facing forward, right?

I got to do white water rafting when I was a teenager with my parents.

It was super fun.

Yeah.

Right?

So you're fa- you're facing forward.

But I guess actually back then, they would actually turn around and were

kind of ro- almost rowing backwards.

Mm-hmm.

So it's just a, a different technique, right?

Yeah.

Again, they're, they're, they're navigating these massive,

uh, these massive boats.

I talked about the nails.

They were expecting to actually hunker down for quite a few months dur-

over the winter, which never happened because that, that river never freezes.

It's too, it's moves too fast.

And then we talk about Separation Rapid.

Now, the, and another interesting thing about Major John Wesley Powell, so after

all of this, he's hailed like this hero.

Mm-hmm.

But he's frustrated because he didn't get any of his maps.

Everything was ruined-

Mm-hmm

… on this first expedition.

So he actually comes back and does it again.

Yep.

So he's awarded $12,000 from Congress- Mm … to complete the Survey of

the Colorado of the West and its tributaries, and the tributaries means

any river that feeds the Colorado.

Um, and so that's when he goes back to actually survey it, and there's, uh,

three surveys, the Hayden Survey, the King Survey, and the Wheeler Survey.

Uh, but like Scott said, it really was an exploration- Right … that

first trip to kinda see it all for the first time, and then because he's

done it and he knows it now, uh, he goes back and actually surveys it.

And so I, I, I thought that was just super interesting.

And again, I will leak that, link that particular podcast episode 'cause the

host interviews someone who wrote a whole book about this expedition down the Grand

Canyon and Major John Wesley Powell.

But I, I was curious about what he did after these expeditions

because he's Mr. Ex- Explorer.

Mm-hmm.

So he actually became the director of the US Geological Survey.

Yep.

Right?

So in 1881, I think you mentioned it-

Yeah,

Garfield … he, he became the director of that.

He also became the director of the Bureau of Ethnology,

right, for S- Smithsonian stuff.

So he actually also created this report, and this is, this, I just thought that

was interesting, and I'll, I'll- You'll be, you'll, you'll understand why.

Report on the Lands of the Arid Region.

So this is 1878, so just before some of this, this, um, US Geological Survey.

So He was looking ahead.

He's out exploring everywhere all the time, and he drew up this report,

and he basically said, "Hey, the standard 160 acre Homestead Act made

no sense past the 100th meridian because there wasn't enough rain to

support traditional family farming."

Think about the Midwest, think about Utah, and how dry and arid it is out there.

So he actually advocated that western state and country borders should be

drawn around natural watersheds rather than arbitrary straight lines on a

map so communities could collectively govern and conserve their water supply.

He was kind of brushed off.

They didn't… I don't think they ended up following, um, his advice, but his

warnings were lar- so it says they were largely ignored by politicians eager

to settle the West, but they proved prophetic decades later during the Dust

Bowl and the modern Western water crisis.

So he was just…

He was the guy, like, out there.

He was, like, the, I'll call it, quote-unquote, you know,

modern-day Lewis and Clark-

Yeah,

man of his time … a couple, couple decades later.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

But, um, and then he was a co-funder- co-founder of the

National Geographic Society.

So John Wesley Powell is just a super interesting character 'cause here he

is a soldier exploring just all over.

Yeah.

Just mapping the, mapping all of the country, first one to go through the

Grand Canyon, doing all this stuff.

Just a really interesting character, and you talk about someone who truly

contributed and is a massive part of the history of the Grand Canyon and the West.

Yeah, and it's neat.

If you… Those second expeditions that take place in 1871 and 1872,

he brings a camera with him.

So you know photography is around, Civil War, and so some of those pictures,

you can look at those pictures.

Those are the first photographs of the Grand Canyon and people going

down there, meeting the indigenous, and taking photographs with them.

So, uh, it's really neat if you wanna look through those photos.

Now, we talk about the indigenous because Powell is the first Westerner-

Right

… to come through here.

But there really were, uh, a lot of Native Americans who were in the area

before Powell will, uh, make his way.

But you do have the Navajo and other First Peoples.

The Pueblo people are also there.

But in 1540, so you have the Spanish, uh, conquistadors who get

out there, Coronado, uh, Cárdenas.

They are, are Spanish soldiers, and with the Hopi, uh, guides,

they go to the Grand Canyon.

Yep.

So there are other First Peoples who are there and see the Grand

Canyon and report about it.

Now, there's a lot of speculation in history that there's other trappers

and people who h- must have seen it.

They must have come upon it, but there's not a lot of writing and primary

source material of people who left, uh- detailed e- uh, encounters behind,

but we know that between 18- 1540 and Powell's visit, uh, there must've been

other trappers that saw it as well.

But it definitely was an indigenous area, and people did l- live

there and make their homes there.

Uh, what's neat too is how Scott talked about the California condor.

Yeah.

So that was a bird that was indigenous to the area and almost

was completely hunted away.

Uh, but there was a conservation effort to bring it back, and they

actually, uh, were able to hatch more.

And now, today, when we were there, they have such a expansive wingspan,

and when they're f- floating over the canyon, you can definitely see them.

Yeah, we… I, I got lucky.

We got a one really cool shot of a California condor just flying around and

kinda t- going, coming up and coming right down, all the way down into the canyon.

It was really cool.

So yeah, in the 1980s, there was a big push to kinda, one, kinda

label them as endangered, right?

That happened a lot in the '70s and '80s.

Label them as, as endangered and kinda foster the environment around

them so that they could… Um, and I remember learning about that when I was

growing up 'cause California, right?

California condor.

Um, so they were… They're kinda a western bird.

But, uh, so yeah, if you're watching the video, I'm probably, uh, putting

B-roll of that, that cool shot I got- … of, of the California condor.

And then we talked about the railroad coming through.

So a rail line was started in Flagstaff, and Flagstaff is kind

of the city before you get to the Grand Canyon, and that happened in

1882 with the Santa Fe Railroad.

So there was stagecoaches and railroads who start to come through in the 1880s.

And then, uh, yeah, the first automobile was driven to the Grand Canyon in 1902.

And then we talk a little bit about the first phone lines coming through.

Yes, we did mention that.

I didn't mention that in the intro, but that was kind of the 1930s, right?

The Triple C and, uh- Mm-hmm … F- FDR and, and Eisenhower and all

those efforts and stuff like that.

Um, well, pre-Eisenhower.

But, uh So the Civilian Conservation Corps, and you mention that in the video.

Yes, and it's really neat to kinda see they have some surviving telephone

poles from when they came in and ran the wires across the Grand Canyon.

Uh, Scott talked about, a little bit about the Mormons.

There are Mormons who are also settling in the area because they're getting

… They're coming into Utah, and there was some Mormons who were also there before

Powell actually makes it out there.

And they're the first ones to really encounter the natives and,

uh, be able to make friendships with them and alliances with them.

Uh, but it's really neat to go out there and just see so much history and how

much people have seen the Grand Canyon, and to know it really hasn't changed.

That site picture of the conquistadors in the 1540s is

probably what you see today in 2026.

So it was really neat to go out there and s- and partake of the beauty of it,

and it really did take my breath away.

Yeah.

It was great, and so this … Th- that's, that's one of those ones,

we got plenty of comments on the video that said, "Hey, this is a

bucket list item." Um, absolutely.

Hopefully, if you're listening to this in the car on the way to the

Grand Canyon, this gave you some, uh, some good ideas of what to go see.

As you step back from the edge of the South Rim and watch the late

afternoon shadows stretch across miles of ancient stone, it's impossible not

to feel a raw sense of perspective.

From the daring journey of John Wesley Powell and his crew rowing

wooden boats into the great unknown, to the hard labor of the Civilian

Conservation Corps running telephone lines through freezing winter snow and

blistering summer heat, this landscape tests and inspires the human spirit.

Theodore Roosevelt was right.

You cannot improve upon it.

It stands as a timeless reminder to preserve those sacred wild

spaces for generations to come.

This detour off Route 66 was an unforgettable chapter in our cross-country

trip, but our tires are pointing back towards the asphalt next time.

We get right back on Route 66 to explore the small town that inspired

Radiator Springs as we continue to make our way toward the Pacific.

Make sure you subscribe to Talk With History on your favorite podcast

app so you never miss an episode or a mile of the journey ahead.

We'll talk to you next time.

Thank you.

This has been a Walk With History production.

Talk With History is created and hosted by me, Scott Bennie.

Episode researched by Jennifer Bennie.

Check out the show notes for links and references mentioned in this episode.

Make sure you hit that follow button in that podcast player,

and we'll talk to you next time