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History of the Hatfields and McCoys

Episode 105 • 22nd April 2024 • Talk With History • Scott and Jenn of Walk with History - The History Inspired World Travelers

Scott: 00:00:10

Even the crickets here in the holler hold their breath sometimes.

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You can feel it in the air, a tension thicker than summer humidity.

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Hatfields and McCoys, they say, been at it since before the war, those two families.

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My pappy used to tell stories about Devil Anse Hatfield, meanest son of

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a gun, this side of the Mississippi.

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Had 13 kids, all cut from the same onery cloth.

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Over on the Kentucky side, there was Randolph McCoy, Ol Randall.

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They used to call them.

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Same story, a brood of boys itching for a fight.

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It all started with the pig, some folks say.

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Stolen or not stolen, depending on who you ask.

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But that was just the spark.

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The real fire came later, with guns blazing across the Tug Fork,

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men dying over land and pride.

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My cousin Asa, poor fella, caught in the crossfire, left a hole in

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our family that'll never mend.

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This here's the story of the Hatfield McCoy feud, a saga of hatred and

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revenge that tore these hills apart.

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We'll meet the families, hear the gunshots echo through the hollers, and

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see if there's any truth to the whispers of a star crossed love affair that

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bloomed in the shadow of all that hate.

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So pull up a chair by the fire, cause this ain't gonna be a pretty

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tale, but it's one worth hearing.

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Welcome to Talk With History.

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I'm your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian, Jen.

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On this podcast, we give you insights to our history inspired world travels,

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YouTube channel journey, and examine history through deeper conversations

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with the curious, the explorers, and the history lovers out there.

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And Jen, I'm just going to jump right into it.

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We are talking about a very popular, very famous family

Scott: 00:02:00

feud about the Hatfield McCoys.

Jenn: 00:02:04

We're going to go right into American folklore that happens

Jenn: 00:02:08

to be based in actual history.

Scott: 00:02:10

Yeah, and this was kind of a fun one because you and I

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got some time away from the kids.

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My mom was watching the kids.

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And so we just kind of headed due west and started driving out towards

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the Kentucky Virginia border area.

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Did some other history topics we've talked about before, but we discovered

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we were in Hatfield McCoy country.

Jenn: 00:02:30

And it was amazing because we always wanted to do this story.

Jenn: 00:02:34

So being there, we just took full advantage of it.

Jenn: 00:02:38

And we started at the visitor center, which is basically.

Jenn: 00:02:41

the best place to go in Pikeville, Kentucky.

Scott: 00:02:45

That was, it was, I'm so happy that we stopped there first

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because we really got the best kind of lay of the land advice that

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you could get, you could ask for.

Jenn: 00:02:54

And honestly, we both say it after that trip, we said the nicest people

Jenn: 00:03:00

we have met on our history travels through America were in Kentucky.

Scott: 00:03:04

They were amazing.

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They were, they were so friendly, like, cause sometimes you feel a little

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bit like an interloper going around, especially with the camera, you're

Scott: 00:03:11

saying, Hey, I'm looking for this.

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I'm looking for that.

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Not

Jenn: 00:03:14

No, they were so welcoming and open.

Jenn: 00:03:17

They treated us like family.

Jenn: 00:03:19

It was truly amazing.

Jenn: 00:03:21

So, I would say if you're going to do any Hatfield and McCoy travel

Jenn: 00:03:26

exploring, start in the visitors center in Pikeville, Kentucky.

Jenn: 00:03:29

And there's a couple of reasons you want to start there.

Jenn: 00:03:31

First of all, it's a cool little town.

Scott: 00:03:34

there.

Scott: 00:03:34

And we're

Jenn: 00:03:35

A lot of the history of the Hatfields and McCoys happens in Pikeville,

Jenn: 00:03:38

Kentucky, but You're going to get the best internet coverage there and we're going

Jenn: 00:03:44

to talk about that because once you start exploring outside of Pikeville, you're

Jenn: 00:03:50

in the hollers, you're in the back woods roads of West Virginia and Kentucky.

Jenn: 00:03:55

You're right along the border there.

Jenn: 00:03:57

And you're going to lose your internet coverage.

Jenn: 00:03:59

So if you're trying to find specific locations, you won't be able to GPS

Jenn: 00:04:04

them or look them up on your Google maps or whatever you use, Apple

Jenn: 00:04:08

maps, you won't be able to use it.

Jenn: 00:04:10

So at the visitor center, you can get a free brochure.

Jenn: 00:04:16

It's the Hatfields and McCoys historic feud driving tour.

Jenn: 00:04:20

And again,

Scott: 00:04:21

this was in Pikeville,

Jenn: 00:04:23

Pikeville, Kentucky at the visitor center there.

Jenn: 00:04:26

And it's located at 831 Hambly Boulevard in Pikeville, Kentucky.

Jenn: 00:04:32

So it was a great guy there who helped us.

Jenn: 00:04:36

He was so, he was so open and friendly.

Jenn: 00:04:40

He kept telling us how Chris comes in all the time.

Jenn: 00:04:43

And, you know, Chris loves it here.

Jenn: 00:04:45

And I'm looking at him like, who, Chris, who?

Scott: 00:04:48

who are we talking about?

Scott: 00:04:49

I don't, I don't know.

Scott: 00:04:50

I know many Chris's

Jenn: 00:04:51

like, okay.

Jenn: 00:04:52

And he's talking about Chris Stapleton, who, the country music singer, who we

Jenn: 00:04:55

have his record behind us in our podcast, Traveler, because we love his music.

Jenn: 00:05:00

We love the bluegrass.

Jenn: 00:05:01

We love the sound of it.

Jenn: 00:05:02

And I guess Chris Stapleton is from Pikeville, Kentucky.

Scott: 00:05:06

there was a couple of other pretty well known actors and musicians,

Jenn: 00:05:10

is from there, Dwight Yoakam.

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they call it like that was a country music highway.

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through there.

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But also there was an actor, most folks wouldn't quite know his name yet, but he's

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been in some really big stuff on Netflix.

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He was in like at the new, um, new version of justified.

Jenn: 00:05:26

also in Hatfields and McCoys,

Scott: 00:05:28

He played one of the McCoys,

Jenn: 00:05:30

he plays one of the

Scott: 00:05:31

of the Hatfields.

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Yeah.

Jenn: 00:05:33

He plays the son.

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from that

Jenn: 00:05:35

He's from that area.

Jenn: 00:05:37

And so, yeah, you're going to get, it's close to Loretta Lynn's house too.

Jenn: 00:05:41

So a lot of people will go to the visitor center.

Jenn: 00:05:44

to get information about visiting Loretta Lynn's cabin.

Jenn: 00:05:47

We have a whole episode on that where you go, where you get your tickets,

Jenn: 00:05:51

who you talk to, if you want to visit there, a lot of people will get that

Jenn: 00:05:53

information also from that visitor center.

Jenn: 00:05:56

So that visitor center is great for that.

Jenn: 00:05:58

And also if you're going to do the Hatfield to McCoy's get the driving tour,

Jenn: 00:06:01

you're going to want that brochure because it gives you step by step instructions.

Jenn: 00:06:06

After you get out of the city and you're not going to have your GPS

Scott: 00:06:11

And it's nice too, because you can sit there and kind

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of plan it out ahead of time.

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Cause the driving tour could probably, if you do the whole thing, it'll

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probably take you all day, but you can in advance kind of pick and choose

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the spots you want to go, how much driving you actually want to do.

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Plus you can actually start there in Pikeville at the, at

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the, , the city courthouse.

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There's a, there's a little museum there.

Scott: 00:06:31

That's all about the Hatfield McCoys as well as some other stuff in the area.

Jenn: 00:06:35

Yeah, so it's the historic courthouse where they were put on trial.

Jenn: 00:06:38

The second floor courtroom is now become a museum and We went over there first

Jenn: 00:06:46

and we actually met an actual Hatfield

Scott: 00:06:53

Yeah.

Scott: 00:06:54

So we were, I told the story to a couple of folks.

Scott: 00:06:57

We were driving around looking for parking near the courthouse and I pull up next

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to a hospital and we pull up next to this hospital and we couldn't tell if it was

Scott: 00:07:04

hospital only parking or if we could park there and have security guard walks up.

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He's an older gentleman, probably in his early 60s, and he says, Hey,

Scott: 00:07:12

he'd say, Hey, can I help you guys?

Scott: 00:07:13

And we said, Hey, we're looking for parking.

Scott: 00:07:14

You know, we're trying to go to the courthouse.

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And so he had kind of pointed us off in another direction, just a little,

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you know, just a little ways away.

Scott: 00:07:21

And then you saw his name tag and his name tag said, Hatfield

Jenn: 00:07:25

Hatfield and so I asked him.

Jenn: 00:07:27

Are you a Hatfield?

Jenn: 00:07:28

Are you related to?

Jenn: 00:07:31

Devil Anse Hatfield and he said yeah, it's my great uncle and he actually owns the

Jenn: 00:07:36

land where they had the feud and the Kid the boys with the border where the boys

Jenn: 00:07:42

were shot where the McCoy boys were shot and we're gonna get into everything that

Scott: 00:07:46

And he even said to us too, he is like, I guess the

Scott: 00:07:48

Hatfield's won in the end.

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And I was like, oh my gosh.

Jenn: 00:07:52

know.

Jenn: 00:07:52

We just laugh.

Jenn: 00:07:53

We're like, okay.

Scott: 00:07:54

Yeah.

Scott: 00:07:54

I mean he was, he was very kind.

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He was very joking about it.

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Very jovial.

Scott: 00:07:58

Um, but yeah, we told him, we're like, oh my gosh, we're here to go see some of the

Scott: 00:08:02

sites and visit some of the locations.

Scott: 00:08:04

He's like, and he told us that, that little bit, but

Scott: 00:08:06

only in Pikeville, Kentucky.

Scott: 00:08:08

Yes.

Scott: 00:08:08

Would you be driving around and just randomly run into one of the

Scott: 00:08:12

Hatfields, one of the descendants of the

Jenn: 00:08:14

I know who actually lives on the

Scott: 00:08:16

who actually lives on the land.

Scott: 00:08:17

So that was pretty

Jenn: 00:08:18

So Let's, what we're going to do is like, let's talk about what

Jenn: 00:08:22

happened, the historic, what happened.

Jenn: 00:08:24

And then we'll talk about what you can see where, because in the city

Jenn: 00:08:27

of Pikeville, you can see a couple of things that are like the middle of

Jenn: 00:08:30

the story and the end of the story.

Jenn: 00:08:33

And you might be confused if you don't know the story.

Jenn: 00:08:36

Why would I, what is this place?

Jenn: 00:08:37

Why?

Jenn: 00:08:38

I don't want to mention it right away.

Jenn: 00:08:39

So I'd rather mention it in order of how it happened.

Jenn: 00:08:43

If you're gonna drive and visit, you're not gonna, you'd be ping

Jenn: 00:08:47

ponging all over the place to do that.

Jenn: 00:08:49

You would want to go to everywhere in Pikeville and then start to branch out.

Jenn: 00:08:52

So I will, let's do the whole story and then I'll tell you where you can go visit.

Jenn: 00:08:56

I also want to talk about, there's a lot of popularity around the Hatfields McCoys

Jenn: 00:09:00

because of the miniseries that came out with, , Kevin Costner and Bill Paxton.

Scott: 00:09:07

Paxton, that's

Jenn: 00:09:07

I will say that miniseries is very accurate.

Jenn: 00:09:11

If you want to watch it we actually watched it.

Jenn: 00:09:15

I actually watched it while we were there again, because I hadn't seen it in

Scott: 00:09:18

Yeah, I think I watched it after the fact.

Scott: 00:09:21

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:09:21

it's very well acted.

Jenn: 00:09:23

They actually filmed it on location.

Jenn: 00:09:27

So all of those same places, they look just like that.

Jenn: 00:09:30

And They're very accurate with how they tell the story and

Jenn: 00:09:35

the timeline of the story.

Jenn: 00:09:36

They do a very good job.

Jenn: 00:09:38

So if you're interested in, in understanding more about the nuances

Jenn: 00:09:42

of the story and how things are really interconnected and these families

Jenn: 00:09:46

who just couldn't seem to get enough of each other watch that miniseries.

Jenn: 00:09:49

It's a three part miniseries.

Jenn: 00:09:50

It's act.

Jenn: 00:09:51

It's fantastic.

Scott: 00:09:52

it's really good and that just that just goes to show how Incredible and

Scott: 00:09:57

and almost like how crazy the true life story is that they didn't have to change

Scott: 00:10:01

much to make it You know, it's a Hollywood

Jenn: 00:10:04

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:10:04

It's truth is stranger than fiction.

Jenn: 00:10:07

And remember, this has really played into American folklore.

Jenn: 00:10:11

I mean, you think about Star Trek and Doc McCoy is related to the McCoys like

Jenn: 00:10:17

this is supposed to be very inter grained into our American culture now, which

Jenn: 00:10:22

it is this Hatfield and McCoy feud.

Jenn: 00:10:25

But it all goes back to really the biggest feud of America.

Jenn: 00:10:35

It all really starts with the Civil War.

Scott: 00:10:40

so so talk to me a little bit about How the Hatfields and McCoys

Scott: 00:10:43

were involved in the Civil War?

Scott: 00:10:45

And, and why that kind of was the genesis.

Jenn: 00:10:47

we're really dealing Here on the border of Kentucky and Virginia

Jenn: 00:10:54

Before it becomes West Virginia because West Virginia is a product of the

Jenn: 00:10:58

Civil War West Virginia is not a state before the Civil War, but because

Jenn: 00:11:03

there are so many people who are anti Confederacy in Virginia, they really

Jenn: 00:11:08

break away to start their own state and say, we want to be a union state.

Jenn: 00:11:13

We want to be part of the union.

Jenn: 00:11:15

We don't want to be part of this Confederacy.

Scott: 00:11:17

was West Virginia that, that said that.

Jenn: 00:11:19

I made their own state West Virginia.

Jenn: 00:11:21

So here we have this border where the Hatfields are on one side,

Jenn: 00:11:26

the McCoy's are on the other.

Jenn: 00:11:28

The Hatfields are West Virginian and the McCoy's are Kentucky.

Jenn: 00:11:33

And.

Jenn: 00:11:35

They that's where you're gonna get a lot of families and brothers who are gonna

Jenn: 00:11:39

fight for either side because when you think about it This is a this is where

Jenn: 00:11:44

the West Virginians are gonna break away because they want pro union So you're

Jenn: 00:11:47

gonna get families and brothers who are like I I side with Kentucky I side with

Jenn: 00:11:52

Virginia hence, West Virginia so that That kind of is what happens here now, not

Jenn: 00:11:58

with the patriarchs that when we really talk about the Hatfields and McCoys,

Jenn: 00:12:00

there's two head men of these families.

Jenn: 00:12:03

You're going to get William Anderson Hatfield, devil anse on the Hatfield side.

Jenn: 00:12:08

And then you're going to get Randall, old Randall McCoy on the McCoy side.

Jenn: 00:12:13

They both fight for the Confederacy.

Jenn: 00:12:15

They both fight together for the Confederacy.

Scott: 00:12:18

And in the mini series, that's, that is Kevin Costner and Bill

Jenn: 00:12:21

Yes.

Jenn: 00:12:21

They both feel like it's their duty.

Jenn: 00:12:25

McCoy really feels like it's his duty.

Jenn: 00:12:27

He wants to stay.

Jenn: 00:12:29

Hatfield, the devil anse, starts to see the Confederacy losing and

Jenn: 00:12:34

feels like it's a losing fight and he doesn't want to die for a lost cause.

Jenn: 00:12:38

So he, he basically leaves early and goes back to his land.

Scott: 00:12:43

probably leaves like, like a year or two before the end of the

Jenn: 00:12:46

Before the end of the war and goes back to his land and then

Jenn: 00:12:48

he's able to start his business up and really get more solid business

Scott: 00:12:54

They do like log logging and a lot of land

Jenn: 00:12:56

Yes, before McCoy can even get back home.

Scott: 00:12:59

And that's, that's Bill

Jenn: 00:13:00

That's Bill Paxton.

Jenn: 00:13:01

And so you see McCoy kind of resentful of that fact.

Scott: 00:13:04

Cause doesn't he get captured?

Jenn: 00:13:06

He does get captured at one point.

Jenn: 00:13:08

And so he has to survive

Scott: 00:13:10

like, he's a prisoner of

Jenn: 00:13:11

prisoner of war, which if you know anything about civil war, prisoners

Jenn: 00:13:14

of war, both sides were horrible.

Jenn: 00:13:16

You can't even say the South was worse than the North.

Jenn: 00:13:19

They both treated their prisoners Terrible.

Jenn: 00:13:24

But that's not really where the feud starts.

Jenn: 00:13:26

Their friends, they're kind of, McCoy kind of pissed at Hadfield because he

Scott: 00:13:30

Left

Jenn: 00:13:30

left early mad at him.

Jenn: 00:13:32

But that's not the feud.

Jenn: 00:13:38

What starts this whole feud and it, People like to say it was the Pig Trial.

Jenn: 00:13:42

The Pig Trial is really where it kind of gets really dug in, but the feud really

Jenn: 00:13:47

starts with a brother of McCoy, Asa Harmon McCoy, who served in the Union.

Jenn: 00:13:57

So here you got brothers who are serving for two separate

Jenn: 00:14:02

sides and Asa comes back home.

Jenn: 00:14:07

He's been captured.

Jenn: 00:14:09

He served time in a confederate prisoner of war camp.

Jenn: 00:14:11

He comes back home.

Jenn: 00:14:12

He's not even home for 13 days before he is killed and he's killed.

Jenn: 00:14:18

January 7th, 1865.

Jenn: 00:14:21

So, this is really before the end of the war.

Jenn: 00:14:24

He serves time, and he gets out early, and he comes back, and

Jenn: 00:14:28

it's Jim Vance, Vance is the uncle of Old Anse, so he's a Hatfield,

Scott: 00:14:35

Tom Berringer in the miniseries.

Jenn: 00:14:37

it so

Scott: 00:14:37

He's phenomenal.

Scott: 00:14:38

So Tom Berringer plays, um, Kevin Costner's uncle.

Scott: 00:14:43

Right.

Jenn: 00:14:44

Crazy.

Scott: 00:14:44

Yeah, the crazy, this is like, you think about the crazy uncle?

Scott: 00:14:49

This is back then, like, you know, West Virginia.

Scott: 00:14:51

Crazy, crazy

Jenn: 00:14:53

Crazy uncle.

Jenn: 00:14:53

Who's a rebel, right?

Jenn: 00:14:54

He believes in the rebel cause.

Jenn: 00:14:56

So here comes a McCoy, home that fought for the Union, and he's mad.

Jenn: 00:15:00

Not, not only did he like, get captured as a prisoner of war, and

Jenn: 00:15:04

he, gets out and now he's back home.

Jenn: 00:15:07

This is before the end of the war.

Jenn: 00:15:08

He's mad.

Jenn: 00:15:09

So 13 days later, he's killed.

Jenn: 00:15:11

And so this is what starts the feud.

Jenn: 00:15:13

A McCoy is killed by the Hatfields.

Scott: 00:15:17

And that's kind of what I was referring to as like, I'll

Scott: 00:15:20

call it time traveling Scotty that did the intro there, right?

Scott: 00:15:23

When you say like my cousin Asa, you know, because I had, there were so many brothers

Scott: 00:15:26

and sisters, there's so much family on each side that really was the first

Scott: 00:15:31

event that really kicked off this feud.

Jenn: 00:15:34

And when you think about it, there's these huge families, these

Jenn: 00:15:38

huge networks of families, right?

Jenn: 00:15:40

And that's who does all your farming.

Jenn: 00:15:42

That's who you, that's who does all your business with.

Jenn: 00:15:45

It's like you have six or seven brothers and sisters, and then

Jenn: 00:15:49

they have six or seven brothers and sisters and they have, so you have

Jenn: 00:15:52

these huge families on either side.

Jenn: 00:15:54

It doesn't mean they didn't intermarry.

Jenn: 00:15:56

Hatfield's McCoy is certainly intermarried, but they had these strong

Jenn: 00:16:01

family ties through the patriarch line.

Jenn: 00:16:04

And it's the McCoy brother who's killed by the Hatfield uncle

Jenn: 00:16:08

that starts this whole thing.

Jenn: 00:16:09

And we go to that location that is outside of the city.

Jenn: 00:16:14

It's by this little school.

Jenn: 00:16:16

I think it's called Blackberry.

Scott: 00:16:17

Yeah.

Scott: 00:16:18

Then there's a marker

Jenn: 00:16:19

There's a marker there.

Jenn: 00:16:19

That's a great place to be like, this is where it all started.

Jenn: 00:16:23

And.

Jenn: 00:16:24

You're going to get like this feud is going to last a while because

Jenn: 00:16:28

his widow starts to kind of, she starts to needle her way into

Jenn: 00:16:34

with lawyers and things like that.

Jenn: 00:16:36

So this is going to start the whole feud.

Scott: 00:16:39

feud kind of goes on for a few decades.

Jenn: 00:16:40

yeah.

Jenn: 00:16:41

Oh yeah.

Jenn: 00:16:41

So I mean, it's going to be 13 years later when this hog trial happens.

Jenn: 00:16:45

So that's the first thing that happens.

Jenn: 00:16:48

It's not publicized that it was Jim Vance that did it.

Jenn: 00:16:52

Family tradition points to him.

Jenn: 00:16:54

He's part of that West Virginia militia group that is the rebels that did that.

Jenn: 00:17:00

application for his wife's pension from the union said he was killed by rebels.

Jenn: 00:17:06

So that's kind of like how people have pieced that together.

Jenn: 00:17:08

There's no existing records pertaining to his death.

Jenn: 00:17:10

There's no death record.

Jenn: 00:17:12

But when she goes for the pension, killed by rebels is what it says.

Jenn: 00:17:16

And

Scott: 00:17:17

And I think even some of the markers don't specifically

Scott: 00:17:19

call out the Hatfield, but they, they call out the group, but it's,

Scott: 00:17:24

it's, it's, It's it's implied

Jenn: 00:17:27

a member was a leader of the group.

Jenn: 00:17:29

So, so, McCoy comes back from the end of the war.

Jenn: 00:17:33

So this happens in January 1865.

Jenn: 00:17:35

McCoy comes back at the end of the war and he starts to hear rumblings

Jenn: 00:17:39

and he's not, not only is he mad that Hadfield old Anse has left early

Jenn: 00:17:44

and been able to kind of keep his family going where McCoy's family has

Jenn: 00:17:49

basically just really barely gotten by.

Jenn: 00:17:53

Now he's here rumblings that his brother was killed by Hatfield.

Jenn: 00:17:56

So he just kind of, is upset about

Scott: 00:18:00

Yeah bitter about

Jenn: 00:18:01

bitter about it, but it goes about his business and

Jenn: 00:18:04

starts to build their life back.

Jenn: 00:18:07

So if you go to the McCoy well, which is again on the outskirts of Pikeville,

Jenn: 00:18:14

but it's a great place to visit.

Jenn: 00:18:15

They have a a guy who lives there who loves giving tours,

Scott: 00:18:21

Yeah, you if you drive up and if the guys you know, there's a

Scott: 00:18:25

gentleman that lives right near the well Which is where their old home was

Scott: 00:18:30

but if his garage is open, he's out.

Scott: 00:18:32

He'll come right up to you I'm talking to you.

Scott: 00:18:34

He came and she said hey come look at this stuff.

Scott: 00:18:36

I have my garage and we were like, um You Excuse me.

Scott: 00:18:39

And

Jenn: 00:18:40

Kevin Costner went and visited there and

Scott: 00:18:42

he said he used to like give tours and stuff.

Jenn: 00:18:44

So it's random McCoy's.

Jenn: 00:18:45

Well, it's in Hardy, Kentucky.

Jenn: 00:18:46

So this is where McCoy's home was, and this is where the pig was.

Jenn: 00:18:52

And so the pig gets marked with the McCoy mark, which is basically two notches out

Jenn: 00:18:57

of its ear, wanders away onto the hill.

Jenn: 00:19:00

So if you stand on, at the McCoy well, which was behind their

Jenn: 00:19:04

house where they got their water.

Jenn: 00:19:06

Now they make alcohol from there.

Jenn: 00:19:07

You can buy the McCoy well, alcohol, moonshine or whatever.

Jenn: 00:19:11

Um, if you look up, you can see like a hill.

Jenn: 00:19:14

That's where the pig wandered onto the hill.

Jenn: 00:19:17

And that was Hatfield land, not old aunt's Hatfield land,

Jenn: 00:19:20

but one of his cousins land.

Jenn: 00:19:22

And so what happens is that that pig has gotten over there and the cousin

Jenn: 00:19:29

Floyd Hatfield, claimed it was his hog and he's taking it to slaughter,

Jenn: 00:19:34

walks by Randall McCoy and McCoy looks at his ears and says, those

Jenn: 00:19:39

are McCoy marks, not Hatfield marks.

Jenn: 00:19:41

And Floyd says, that pig has been on my land for a couple

Jenn: 00:19:45

of years now and it's mine.

Jenn: 00:19:47

And McCoy's like, that pig wandered away from my house

Jenn: 00:19:51

like three or four years ago.

Jenn: 00:19:52

We just thought, we just thought something happened to it.

Jenn: 00:19:56

Like, but you kept it.

Jenn: 00:19:57

That's my pig.

Scott: 00:19:58

So they start arguing over who owns this

Jenn: 00:20:00

They start arguing on who owns this pig.

Scott: 00:20:02

and you, you drove home too.

Scott: 00:20:03

And I think you made it into the video about how valuable those hogs were.

Scott: 00:20:08

And especially at that

Jenn: 00:20:09

at that time.

Jenn: 00:20:09

It's your livelihood.

Jenn: 00:20:10

It's feeding your family.

Jenn: 00:20:13

Basically, you could see it as Randall McCoy felt the Hatfields was stealing

Jenn: 00:20:17

food from his family's mouths.

Jenn: 00:20:19

It was that bad.

Jenn: 00:20:20

You're stealing another

Scott: 00:20:21

And that, and that's why things started to get so

Jenn: 00:20:23

Yes, this happens in 1878.

Jenn: 00:20:26

So this is 13 years after Asa is killed.

Jenn: 00:20:30

So McCoy has let this fester for 13 years, right?

Jenn: 00:20:34

He hasn't brought anything up.

Jenn: 00:20:36

I don't think he's been perfect, particularly friendly to the Hatfields,

Jenn: 00:20:40

but I mean, they're still neighbors.

Jenn: 00:20:42

And, but he now he's mad.

Jenn: 00:20:45

He takes it to the justice of the peace.

Jenn: 00:20:47

And he wants He wants justice and the justice of the piece is Anderson Hatfield.

Jenn: 00:20:55

So it's, it's old and Hatfield's cousin

Jenn: 00:20:59

. Scott: Yeah.

Jenn: 00:21:00

It's another one of his cousins

Jenn: 00:21:01

Yes.

Jenn: 00:21:02

And so, and he's a well educated man, knows the law, but he's also from

Jenn: 00:21:07

Kentucky and he or in West Virginia, he's also Hatfield and he understands

Jenn: 00:21:13

family almost matters more than the law.

Jenn: 00:21:16

And so.

Jenn: 00:21:18

You can go to the cabin where this trial takes place and I would recommend

Jenn: 00:21:23

that is a that is a place you want to

Scott: 00:21:25

Yeah, that was really cool because you're driving through,

Scott: 00:21:29

you know, just to kind of step back and set the scene of where we are.

Scott: 00:21:32

Like one of the things that I kind of wondered before we got out

Scott: 00:21:35

there is like, what's a hauler?

Scott: 00:21:36

Well, it's a bunch of little mini valleys, right?

Scott: 00:21:38

You're driving through and it is beautiful land out there.

Scott: 00:21:42

It's absolutely gorgeous driving through these haulers.

Scott: 00:21:44

Like when we went up to Butcher Hauler to Loretta Lynn and driving

Scott: 00:21:47

through these haulers was really cool.

Scott: 00:21:49

So you really.

Scott: 00:21:50

feel like you're there.

Scott: 00:21:51

And then you come down and I think it's near like a post office.

Scott: 00:21:54

Um,

Jenn: 00:21:55

it McCarr, Kentucky.

Scott: 00:21:56

yeah.

Scott: 00:21:56

And so you drive up and they had recreated the, the cabin there.

Scott: 00:22:00

And so I think they call it the pig trial, hog trial cabin.

Scott: 00:22:04

Um, and you know, it's, it's in good shape.

Scott: 00:22:07

You know, I, I'm sure it's certain times of the year you

Scott: 00:22:09

might be able to go inside.

Scott: 00:22:10

We weren't able to,

Scott: 00:22:11

, Jenn: look in the windows and it's

Scott: 00:22:12

and there's other things that.

Scott: 00:22:13

Aren't actually too far from that, from that cabin, some other markers that we'll

Scott: 00:22:17

talk about a little bit, but it was just, it was beautiful time of year we were

Scott: 00:22:20

there in October and it was so neat to do.

Scott: 00:22:24

And if you're thinking about considering about going on these driving tour, I

Scott: 00:22:27

highly recommend this as one of your

Jenn: 00:22:29

Yeah, it's in It's called the Preacher Anse Hatfield Hog Trial Cabin

Jenn: 00:22:35

and its location, it just gives you like a county road, 319 McCarr, Kentucky.

Jenn: 00:22:41

And that's kind of how you're going to have to get around there.

Jenn: 00:22:43

It really is like these old country roads.

Jenn: 00:22:51

So this is what the trial is going to take place.

Jenn: 00:22:53

Now.

Jenn: 00:22:54

I will say the uncle Anderson, Preacher Anderson, tried to

Jenn: 00:22:58

make it, tried to make it just.

Jenn: 00:23:02

He tried to put half of the Hatfields on the jury and half

Jenn: 00:23:05

of the McCoys on the jury.

Jenn: 00:23:07

The problem was that one of the McCoys was married to a Hatfield.

Jenn: 00:23:13

And like I said, these, they're intermarried.

Jenn: 00:23:15

And so, he was kind of a relative of both families and he.

Jenn: 00:23:20

said that he didn't, he didn't think that that mark was a McCoy mark.

Jenn: 00:23:24

And so that kind of pushed it.

Jenn: 00:23:25

And so Anderson Hatfield ruled in favor of the Hatfields.

Scott: 00:23:28

So he sided with his wife's side, which was the Hatfield side.

Jenn: 00:23:33

so that, that makes McCoy even more mad.

Jenn: 00:23:38

Like finally, he's like, I didn't get justice for my brother.

Jenn: 00:23:41

Nobody cares.

Jenn: 00:23:43

I didn't get justice for my pig.

Jenn: 00:23:45

Nobody cares.

Jenn: 00:23:46

And so this is when the sons, the McCoy sons.

Scott: 00:23:51

Start getting involved.

Jenn: 00:23:52

getting involved.

Jenn: 00:23:52

They really start to get upset.

Jenn: 00:23:54

So Hatfield has a couple of sons.

Jenn: 00:23:55

McCoy has a couple of sons.

Jenn: 00:23:56

Everyone's half is like 10

Scott: 00:23:58

And daughters, right?

Scott: 00:23:59

So Randall McCoy, right?

Scott: 00:24:01

Who's the patriarch of the McCoy side.

Scott: 00:24:03

His sons start getting involved and things start getting rowdy.

Jenn: 00:24:07

So it's in, it's two years later in June of 1880 that the, the

Jenn: 00:24:12

testimony of the relative of the McCoy's who was married to the Hatfield

Jenn: 00:24:16

is killed by two of the McCoy sons

Scott: 00:24:19

like, hey, you betrayed.

Scott: 00:24:21

They kind of in, in the miniseries, they kind of say, hey, you

Scott: 00:24:24

betrayed our side of the family.

Scott: 00:24:26

And they kill them.

Jenn: 00:24:27

and they kill him.

Jenn: 00:24:28

Now they are immediately arrested.

Jenn: 00:24:31

But the Hatfields catch him, they see them, him do that, and they take him

Jenn: 00:24:35

into trial, but they claim self defense.

Jenn: 00:24:37

And because nobody saw it, they say he came after us with a knife, which he

Jenn: 00:24:40

probably did because they threatened him that they were going to kill him.

Jenn: 00:24:44

So he pulls a knife and says, I'm going to defend myself.

Jenn: 00:24:46

And then they just kill him.

Jenn: 00:24:47

And so they claim self defense.

Jenn: 00:24:48

And you see in the, in the, in the mini series that Anderson Hatfield, the justice

Jenn: 00:24:54

of the piece is getting very mad now at this, at this point, because they're

Jenn: 00:24:59

using the law Which is true, but he can't.

Jenn: 00:25:04

He kind of bent the law in the first place for his cousin to win the hog trial.

Jenn: 00:25:09

Now the McCoys have bent the law in their favor to win the self defense trial.

Jenn: 00:25:13

And he just sees this escalating, right?

Jenn: 00:25:15

Now we've killed, a person was killed, Asa has been killed, a hog has been taken.

Jenn: 00:25:20

Now someone else has been killed.

Jenn: 00:25:22

So we kind of have a person on the McCoy side has been killed and a person

Jenn: 00:25:26

on the Hatfield side has been killed.

Jenn: 00:25:28

So that's where we're at right now.

Jenn: 00:25:30

This is 1880.

Jenn: 00:25:31

So it's kind of right now, an eye for an eye, but it's just going

Jenn: 00:25:35

to escalate now with a daughter.

Scott: 00:25:44

Of course things start getting complicated when the,

Scott: 00:25:47

when the girls start coming in.

Jenn: 00:25:49

So, Randall McCoy has a beautiful daughter named Rosanna and she enters

Jenn: 00:25:53

into a relationship with Devil Ann's son Johnson, they call him , Jonesy.

Jenn: 00:25:58

And she leaves her family to live with them because McCoy basically, Randall

Jenn: 00:26:04

McCoy basically disowns her when he finds out that she likes him, right?

Jenn: 00:26:09

He's so mad still.

Jenn: 00:26:11

This has festered for so long.

Jenn: 00:26:12

How could my daughter?

Scott: 00:26:13

Yeah.

Scott: 00:26:13

In, in the mini series, like Jonesy's, like, like the handsome Hatfield, he's

Scott: 00:26:18

kind of a little bit of a playboy, right?

Scott: 00:26:21

Yeah.

Scott: 00:26:21

And they start this fling and they, you know, quote unquote fall in love.

Scott: 00:26:24

Yeah.

Scott: 00:26:24

You know?

Jenn: 00:26:25

And you have to think about it too, I, they, they don't get into

Jenn: 00:26:29

a bunch of this in the miniseries.

Jenn: 00:26:30

Jonesy already has a kid by another woman, there's not a lot

Jenn: 00:26:33

of people around at this time.

Jenn: 00:26:35

The people, you know, are your neighbors, because it's not

Jenn: 00:26:38

like you're going into the city.

Jenn: 00:26:39

It's not like you're meeting a bunch of people, right?

Jenn: 00:26:41

The hog trial was probably the event of the, of the year.

Scott: 00:26:45

Well, and it's hard to travel around those hollers out there.

Scott: 00:26:47

I mean, it's, travel is

Jenn: 00:26:49

It's slow.

Jenn: 00:26:49

You walk or you ride your horse.

Jenn: 00:26:51

So who else you going to see beside your neighbor?

Jenn: 00:26:55

And so there's very much like a Romeo and Juliet kind of situation,

Jenn: 00:26:58

because my enemy is the only person who has a son who's My age, you know,

Jenn: 00:27:05

so that's kind of what happens here.

Jenn: 00:27:06

When she tells Randall McCoy that she likes,

Scott: 00:27:09

father.

Jenn: 00:27:09

yeah.

Jenn: 00:27:10

Then she tells Fann McCoy

Scott: 00:27:11

she tells her

Jenn: 00:27:12

that she likes the Hatfield son.

Jenn: 00:27:13

He kicks her out.

Jenn: 00:27:14

So she goes over to them.

Jenn: 00:27:15

They take her in as good people.

Jenn: 00:27:17

They, But then she ends up getting pregnant and so then they kick her out

Jenn: 00:27:22

because it's starting a problem that they're not married and and so then the

Jenn: 00:27:29

McCoy's don't want her coming back with a basically a Bastard child so she's

Jenn: 00:27:33

kind of sent to live with an aunt on the outskirts of this whole area and

Jenn: 00:27:42

What's very weird is that The brothers, then, again, the McCoy brothers, try to

Jenn: 00:27:49

honor their sister and kidnap Johnsy.

Jenn: 00:27:54

And

Scott: 00:27:55

and they, they were gonna kill

Jenn: 00:27:56

they were going to kill him.

Jenn: 00:27:57

And so she finds out about this and goes and tells the Hatfields.

Jenn: 00:28:01

The only people that she knows that can save him would be his own people,

Jenn: 00:28:04

even though she's kind of like

Scott: 00:28:07

betraying her own

Jenn: 00:28:07

betraying her own brothers.

Jenn: 00:28:08

So she goes and tells the Hatfields.

Jenn: 00:28:10

The Hatfields go stop the killing.

Jenn: 00:28:12

And And they don't, they don't hurt the McCoy boys, but they, they

Jenn: 00:28:18

basically give a good, like this is your last chance kind of thing.

Jenn: 00:28:23

Like no one was hit, killed here, but this we're, we're escalating this.

Jenn: 00:28:28

This is getting really big and we need to stop.

Jenn: 00:28:31

And so John Z basically abandons her pregnant because

Jenn: 00:28:36

it is getting kind of big.

Scott: 00:28:38

when neither side wants, it's either supports or condones

Scott: 00:28:42

this relationship and they're ostracizing each of them.

Scott: 00:28:44

So, it's kind of, it's not even a lesser of any evil.

Scott: 00:28:48

Jonesy just kind of sides with his family and he leaves Roseanne and leaves her to

Scott: 00:28:55

kind of fend for herself with her aunt.

Jenn: 00:28:56

Yeah, with her aunt.

Jenn: 00:28:57

And then he, typical guy who's just running around, marries Nancy McCoy.

Jenn: 00:29:03

So he does marry a McCoy.

Jenn: 00:29:04

It's a cousin of Rosanna, who happens to be the daughter of Asa McCoy,

Scott: 00:29:09

From the very beginning.

Scott: 00:29:10

Yeah, crazy.

Jenn: 00:29:11

right?

Jenn: 00:29:12

So it's like, like, so when you start to find these locations,

Jenn: 00:29:15

they are very close together.

Jenn: 00:29:17

And you're like, Okay, I can see how this is getting complicated.

Jenn: 00:29:21

Now, we're still at one death for one death, but we're starting

Jenn: 00:29:25

to get more complicated now.

Jenn: 00:29:26

A baby's brought into the picture.

Jenn: 00:29:27

Um, John Z did marry a McCoy, right?

Jenn: 00:29:31

So,

Scott: 00:29:31

what's the next thing that kind of takes it to the next level?

Jenn: 00:29:34

so we're back at the cabin, the hog trial cabin, . It's

Jenn: 00:29:46

election day in Kentucky.

Jenn: 00:29:47

Everyone's coming out 1882.

Scott: 00:29:51

This is almost almost 20 years after the end of the Civil

Jenn: 00:29:53

Yep, yeah, 20 years after the Civil War.

Jenn: 00:29:56

Again a gathering everyone comes back to the hog trial cabin because

Jenn: 00:30:01

it's the justice of the peace

Scott: 00:30:02

and it's kind of in that area.

Scott: 00:30:03

It's it's Central ish.

Jenn: 00:30:06

ish and it's where the elections being held where the boxes, right?

Jenn: 00:30:09

You write on your ballot and you put in the box only men can vote.

Jenn: 00:30:12

This is still only the men, right?

Jenn: 00:30:14

so the women are there like yeah, I'll make a pie and My man will vote, you know

Scott: 00:30:19

it's a big event.

Jenn: 00:30:20

It's a bigger bet so Jonesy has a, has a still,

Jenn: 00:30:25

which a lot of the people did.

Jenn: 00:30:27

This is Kentucky.

Jenn: 00:30:28

This is 1880 until a moonshine and start get start drinking.

Jenn: 00:30:33

And the younger brothers of Rosanna are still pissed about everything that

Jenn: 00:30:39

happened with Johnsy and their sister.

Jenn: 00:30:41

She's since had the baby and they start messing around and pushing around.

Jenn: 00:30:49

Aunt's brother, his big brother, or actually no, his little brother, but a

Jenn: 00:30:54

brother who he really loved, Ellison.

Jenn: 00:30:57

Ellison Hatfield has a son named Cotton.

Jenn: 00:31:00

Ellison is a good guy.

Jenn: 00:31:01

He's trying to stop the escalation of these brothers.

Jenn: 00:31:07

They're getting mad at John Z.

Jenn: 00:31:09

Ellison's kind of like, leave him alone.

Scott: 00:31:11

comes in to basically break up the

Jenn: 00:31:13

Break up the fight and Tolbert Farmer and bud the three

Jenn: 00:31:18

younger brothers of Rosanna the McCoys kill Ellison Not right away.

Jenn: 00:31:23

They stab him 26 times and shoot him.

Jenn: 00:31:26

I mean they they he doesn't die right away And cuz so initially

Jenn: 00:31:32

Anse Hatfield arrest them.

Jenn: 00:31:35

And he says, if my brother dies, I'm going to kill you

Scott: 00:31:39

And so he so he actually has them and he arrests him like it's not

Scott: 00:31:43

like he doesn't take him to the county jail Like he's holding them on his land.

Jenn: 00:31:46

his land.

Jenn: 00:31:47

He basically is like a group of vigilantes and he, he won't

Jenn: 00:31:52

let them be taken to Pikeville.

Jenn: 00:31:54

And the McCoy family tries, Randall McCoy tries to get them

Jenn: 00:31:59

taken to Pikeville to stand trial.

Jenn: 00:32:01

He's trying to get them.

Jenn: 00:32:03

legally to Pikeville, which as you see is probably about 20 minutes away.

Scott: 00:32:08

for us

Jenn: 00:32:09

Yes, but imagine in a wagon or something.

Jenn: 00:32:12

But, um, the brothers are taken by force by anse and they're held up.

Jenn: 00:32:18

And then when Ellison dies, all three of the brothers are killed by the Hatfields.

Jenn: 00:32:23

They're tied to these pawpaw trees and shot numerous times.

Jenn: 00:32:27

A total of 50 shots were and their bodies were burned.

Jenn: 00:32:30

bullet riddled.

Jenn: 00:32:31

And soon, um, you can go to those pawpaw trees.

Jenn: 00:32:34

They are close.

Jenn: 00:32:35

We didn't go there.

Jenn: 00:32:35

It's one place we didn't go.

Jenn: 00:32:36

You can walk over to them.

Jenn: 00:32:37

That's where that Hadfield guy was saying he owns the land.

Jenn: 00:32:40

He owns that land, which, but you can go visit there if you want to.

Jenn: 00:32:43

It's pretty close to the , hog trial cabin.

Jenn: 00:32:46

And you can just basically walk out into the clearing and you can see where

Jenn: 00:32:50

they were tied to the trees and shot.

Scott: 00:32:52

Yeah, so now Now things are, are just kind of out of control.

Scott: 00:32:57

Now things are out of control because these three, they killed Ellison.

Scott: 00:33:01

Then the Hatfields come back, take these three.

Scott: 00:33:04

They, they kill these three.

Scott: 00:33:05

I mean, just line them up and shoot them.

Scott: 00:33:09

And now things, now things are out of control.

Jenn: 00:33:11

This is when Randall McCoy, I mean, of course, he's going to be so upset.

Jenn: 00:33:15

His sons were killed.

Jenn: 00:33:16

Three of his sons, like the oldest are all killed.

Jenn: 00:33:20

So he tries to get a lawyer, Perry Klein.

Jenn: 00:33:24

So you're going to hear Perry Klein's name a couple of times as well to arrest

Jenn: 00:33:29

the Hatfields for basically , acting as vigilantes and killing his sons.

Jenn: 00:33:35

And even though people.

Jenn: 00:33:38

in the area believe this revenge is warranted, right?

Jenn: 00:33:41

There's about 20 people who are indicted, including anse on this,

Jenn: 00:33:45

but, um, all of the Hatfields elude arrest that also angers McCoy

Jenn: 00:33:50

because no one can prove anything.

Jenn: 00:33:53

No one's going to testify against each other.

Jenn: 00:33:55

Right.

Jenn: 00:33:56

And so McCoy gets even more upset about all of

Scott: 00:33:58

So is this when he calls in, the gun for hire?

Jenn: 00:34:03

And so also talk a little bit about the graves of those three

Jenn: 00:34:07

sons before we get any further.

Jenn: 00:34:10

Across from the well of the Hatfield house, across from the

Jenn: 00:34:13

well from the McCoy house, the three Hatfield boys were buried.

Jenn: 00:34:18

And there's a marker when you park into the parking lot to walk over to the McCoy

Jenn: 00:34:23

well where the cabin was, it'll say McCoy.

Jenn: 00:34:27

Cemetery.

Jenn: 00:34:30

It's not in the right location cause you can't go visit the

Scott: 00:34:32

It's not

Jenn: 00:34:33

It's not public.

Jenn: 00:34:34

Why?

Jenn: 00:34:35

Because a Hatfield owns the land now where the McCoy boys are buried.

Jenn: 00:34:40

And because a Hatfield owns the land, they don't want people to go and visit it.

Jenn: 00:34:44

I mean, we laugh that the feud today is no longer going on, but in some regard it is.

Scott: 00:34:50

Now, is that the one that a judge ruled that at least once a year

Jenn: 00:34:54

Family can

Scott: 00:34:55

family can go and visit the

Jenn: 00:34:57

yes.

Jenn: 00:34:57

So when you talk to the well.

Jenn: 00:35:01

Yes, the McCoy family, once a year, is allowed to go onto the land and

Jenn: 00:35:06

visit the graves of the three boys.

Jenn: 00:35:08

But the public, you and I, couldn't go there and visit their graves.

Jenn: 00:35:13

So that's one place you can't

Scott: 00:35:15

Yeah, it's private land.

Jenn: 00:35:16

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:35:16

And again, that is a big part of the story.

Jenn: 00:35:20

So but you can't go there.

Jenn: 00:35:27

McCoy feels like he can't get justice, and Perry Kline, the lawyer, who at

Jenn: 00:35:35

some point tried to sue Hatfield for his land, but was caught in some kind of

Scott: 00:35:42

Doing it sketchy or

Jenn: 00:35:43

Yeah, it wasn't right.

Jenn: 00:35:44

He was, he was doing something that wasn't, it was definitely

Jenn: 00:35:47

fraud and Hatfield caught him.

Jenn: 00:35:49

So Perry Kline was kind of upset that he was caught in his wrongdoings.

Jenn: 00:35:55

They, they hire a man to come in and basically catch Hatfield

Scott: 00:36:01

Yeah, isn't this

Scott: 00:36:02

Bad Frank Phillips.

Jenn: 00:36:03

Frank Phillips is brought in.

Jenn: 00:36:05

You're going to get McCoys and Hatfields who are basically trying

Jenn: 00:36:09

to tie up loose ends and cover their stories and cover their tracks.

Jenn: 00:36:13

Hatfields kind of goes into hiding on his land, won't let anybody on his land

Jenn: 00:36:18

that he doesn't know, very afraid of what repercussions could happen to him.

Scott: 00:36:23

Well, and part of it, if I remember from the miniseries, and you

Scott: 00:36:27

were saying that it was pretty accurate, but Bad Frank Phillips is hired by

Scott: 00:36:30

the McCoys to kind of go in there.

Scott: 00:36:33

I think in the miniseries, they say, Hey, go and arrest them and bring them over

Scott: 00:36:36

to this side so they can stand trial.

Scott: 00:36:38

But they've, Hatfields have it so locked up on their property

Scott: 00:36:42

that they can't go over.

Scott: 00:36:43

And bad Frank Phillips, again in the miniseries, had this reputation of

Scott: 00:36:48

being a little bit of a, of a wild, you know, wild kind of gun for hire.

Scott: 00:36:53

And rather than trying to arrest, he just, you know, ended up starting

Scott: 00:36:57

to, you know, Kill some people.

Jenn: 00:37:00

he, he started to kill cousins of the Hatfields that

Jenn: 00:37:05

made Anne's Hatfield more mad.

Jenn: 00:37:09

I would say Anderson Hatfield, old Anne's Hatfield, understood the predicament

Jenn: 00:37:15

he was in and maybe didn't agree that what he was doing was orthodox, but

Jenn: 00:37:20

once his family members start to get killed, he feels like he has to be

Jenn: 00:37:24

the one to rectify the situation.

Jenn: 00:37:27

And it deserves his, it deserves someone else to be killed for a family member

Jenn: 00:37:33

has been killed, even if he wasn't in the

Scott: 00:37:34

Yeah, you could tell that Kevin Costner's character,

Scott: 00:37:37

who's Devil Anse right?

Scott: 00:37:38

Devil Anse Hatfield Was was torn.

Scott: 00:37:42

He did a good job of portraying the hey, this needs to de escalate But ultimately

Scott: 00:37:48

is just pushed across the line to defend his family rather than take the high road,

Scott: 00:37:54

be able to take the high road and bring things, you know, back down to normalcy.

Scott: 00:37:59

And so they really play that up.

Scott: 00:38:01

And eventually even him, Devil Anse Hatfield, you know, Kevin Costner's

Scott: 00:38:05

character is just like, okay, that's it.

Scott: 00:38:08

We're done.

Scott: 00:38:09

Like this is, this is us versus you.

Scott: 00:38:11

And I am on the Hatfield side.

Scott: 00:38:14

Kind of no matter

Jenn: 00:38:15

Yes.

Jenn: 00:38:16

So it's at this point that the, that the Hatfields.

Jenn: 00:38:21

Are so sick and tired of being afraid that they fight back and It reaches the I

Jenn: 00:38:27

would say the feud reaches its peak here.

Jenn: 00:38:29

And this is why the McCoy cabin no longer exists This is 1888.

Jenn: 00:38:33

It's New Year's Eve and Vance and crazy uncle with cotton who's Ellison's son

Scott: 00:38:43

and he in the show.

Scott: 00:38:44

He has the name cotton because he's most likely

Jenn: 00:38:48

He's simple

Scott: 00:38:49

Yeah, simple minded right and so and I think that's even true true to

Jenn: 00:38:53

yeah, they treat him like cotton.

Scott: 00:38:55

but but again loved within within the Hatfield

Jenn: 00:38:58

and they, slow, his mental capacity is, is diminished, and so they, The

Jenn: 00:39:07

Hatfields surround the McCoy cabin.

Jenn: 00:39:09

So it's Sarah and Randall with all their children so boys and girls and cotton gum.

Jenn: 00:39:16

Earnest Socializing.

Jenn: 00:39:16

is told to go around back.

Jenn: 00:39:18

And if anyone tries to leave from the back, shoot them.

Scott: 00:39:20

Right, so they're coming for him and his wife.

Scott: 00:39:25

You know, and they're standing outside the cabin yelling for him to come

Scott: 00:39:28

out and she says don't she sends him out the back and he escapes before

Scott: 00:39:32

cotton gets there and he had run off and then she starts sending the the

Scott: 00:39:36

daughters that the girls out and that's when cotton kind of shoots one of the

Jenn: 00:39:40

So her idea is if they don't think you're home,

Jenn: 00:39:42

they'll leave us alone, right?

Jenn: 00:39:44

So if you run, cause if you go out there, they're just going to kill you.

Jenn: 00:39:47

So if you run and pretend like you're not here, they'll leave us alone.

Jenn: 00:39:50

Well, they don't leave them alone.

Jenn: 00:39:51

They end up killing two of the boys and they beat Sarah, almost killing her.

Jenn: 00:39:56

by Vance and Johnsy.

Scott: 00:39:58

and then they burn the cabin

Jenn: 00:39:59

Then they burn the cabin down.

Jenn: 00:40:01

And like I said, one of the daughters is killed.

Jenn: 00:40:03

So the remaining McCoys will move to Pikeville

Scott: 00:40:07

like in the city.

Jenn: 00:40:08

the city.

Jenn: 00:40:08

And that McCoy house is there.

Scott: 00:40:11

Yeah, it's like a restaurant

Jenn: 00:40:12

a restaurant now.

Jenn: 00:40:13

So we visit there.

Jenn: 00:40:14

So like I said, there are things you're going to want to see in

Jenn: 00:40:16

Pikeville, that McCoy house.

Jenn: 00:40:18

This is after the fire of 1888 is where they move and live.

Jenn: 00:40:22

They spend the rest of their lives there in Pikeville.

Jenn: 00:40:25

That's the thing you're going to want to see in the city.

Jenn: 00:40:28

So after that, Cotton is going to be arrested and stand trial for the murder.

Jenn: 00:40:35

And he's found guilty and he's hanged in the square of Pikeville.

Jenn: 00:40:42

So that's another place you can visit in the city of Pikeville.

Scott: 00:40:46

not like he was taken at night and, and hanged.

Scott: 00:40:48

He was like, this was a public execution.

Jenn: 00:40:50

public execution, Ellison Cotton Topmounce was executed by hanging

Jenn: 00:40:54

and buried in an unmarked grave.

Scott: 00:40:56

And if I remember correctly, this is kind of the thing that finally.

Scott: 00:40:59

it, you know, at least as far as the events go, is everybody's out

Scott: 00:41:04

there from both sides of the family, as well as the rest of the public.

Scott: 00:41:08

And he's hanged.

Scott: 00:41:09

And then that, that kind of takes the wind out of the sails of both

Scott: 00:41:13

sides, because everybody, at least again, in the miniseries, kind of sees

Scott: 00:41:18

like, okay, This can't continue on.

Jenn: 00:41:20

The two McCoy's that are killed are a son and the daughter.

Jenn: 00:41:24

And so it's on August 24th, 1888, that eight of the Hatfields

Jenn: 00:41:28

and their friends are indicted for the murder of the daughter.

Jenn: 00:41:31

Attafair, she was killed during the massacre and those included

Jenn: 00:41:35

Cap, John Z, Robert, and Elliot Hatfield, Ellison Mounts, Frank Ellis,

Jenn: 00:41:40

Charles Gipsy, and Thomas Chambers.

Jenn: 00:41:43

But only cotton.

Jenn: 00:41:45

is executed.

Jenn: 00:41:46

The rest of them will spend life in prison.

Jenn: 00:41:49

Um, those sent to prison, Valentine Hatfield, elder brother of Anne's Doc

Jenn: 00:41:55

Madden, son in law of the Hatfield and another son in law, 14 years in prison.

Jenn: 00:42:08

So this is basically the end.

Jenn: 00:42:10

This is where, again, after Cotton is hanged, the feud dies out.

Jenn: 00:42:15

Also, they believe because the McCoys moved to Pikeville, and

Jenn: 00:42:18

they're far enough away from the Hatfields, that this feud dies out.

Jenn: 00:42:22

There's, after this, there's no real Back and forth the fighting between the family

Jenn: 00:42:27

ceased after the hanging but the trials continue until 1901, trial of John Z,

Jenn: 00:42:32

sentenced to life imprisonment for his involvement in the New Year massacre.

Jenn: 00:42:36

So John Z will have life in prison.

Jenn: 00:42:38

And so then you get like, The modern era in 1979, family feud had the Hatfields

Jenn: 00:42:46

and the McCoys on the family feud.

Jenn: 00:42:48

Yeah, they did like it was a cash prize and a pig kept on

Jenn: 00:42:52

stage during the game, right?

Jenn: 00:42:54

And the Hatfield family won more money than the McCoys.

Scott: 00:42:57

Now, I think you said it in the video, it was the early 2000s,

Scott: 00:43:01

eventually both families kind of came together and signed something that

Scott: 00:43:05

said, Hey, this, this feud is done.

Jenn: 00:43:07

Yeah, so they did a joint family reunion in 2000.

Jenn: 00:43:11

It garnered national attention, 5, 000 people attended, and that's

Jenn: 00:43:16

when They basically signed a truce.

Scott: 00:43:18

Yeah.

Scott: 00:43:19

I mean, kind of, it was ceremonial, but it actually, it, it meant something.

Jenn: 00:43:23

meant something.

Jenn: 00:43:23

I mean, we still have the issue with the graveyard, right?

Jenn: 00:43:27

That happened in 2002, a lawsuit about that graveyard, um, which is when

Jenn: 00:43:32

just they can be visited once a year.

Jenn: 00:43:35

Um, but there is basically, pretty much a truce between the families now.

Jenn: 00:43:39

And now they do like a big Hatfield McCoy festival.

Jenn: 00:43:42

It's a three day weekend in June, people come and visit.

Jenn: 00:43:45

Other things you can go and see that we went and see is you

Jenn: 00:43:49

definitely want to see the graves.

Jenn: 00:43:51

So in the city of Pikeville, you want to go see the McCoy graves.

Jenn: 00:43:56

You can see Randall, Sarah and Rosanna.

Scott: 00:44:00

that was near like a fire station,

Jenn: 00:44:02

Yes, you have to park across the street, cross the street, and it's a

Jenn: 00:44:06

walk, so it's definitely not somebody who is in a wheelchair or can't do stairs.

Scott: 00:44:11

not accessible.

Scott: 00:44:12

It's not handicapped

Jenn: 00:44:13

It's basically straight up with a bunch of stairs and, but it's neat to see.

Jenn: 00:44:18

They're graves there.

Jenn: 00:44:19

You can also visit the Hatfield graveyard.

Jenn: 00:44:21

That's farther out.

Jenn: 00:44:23

Old roads.

Jenn: 00:44:24

We didn't go all the way out to that.

Jenn: 00:44:26

We went to a park that kind of told the stories of the Hatfields McCoys.

Scott: 00:44:32

was, it was very neat.

Scott: 00:44:32

And I encourage folks listening to this.

Scott: 00:44:34

If you, if you like this story, , the video actually did pretty well for us.

Scott: 00:44:37

It's a good video.

Scott: 00:44:38

We took some time to make it and we show all these locations.

Scott: 00:44:41

We show some maps so you get a feel for where in Virginia and West

Scott: 00:44:45

Virginia, Kentucky area that, that we're at, as well as this kind of

Scott: 00:44:48

memorial, , to both sides of the family.

Jenn: 00:44:51

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:44:51

And in case you were wondering Rosanna's baby.

Jenn: 00:44:54

doesn't make it past one year old.

Jenn: 00:44:57

She dies.

Jenn: 00:44:58

She has a little girl.

Jenn: 00:44:59

So you can also visit Aunt Betty's house and Rosanna's baby's grave site.

Jenn: 00:45:03

That's in Goody, Kentucky.

Jenn: 00:45:05

All of these locations are on the driving tour.

Jenn: 00:45:09

So when you when you see the driving tour, you can see how out in the middle

Jenn: 00:45:15

of Kentucky, West Virginia, you are.

Jenn: 00:45:18

And again, you're not going to have great cell phone coverage.

Jenn: 00:45:21

So again, I remind you to please download the locations beforehand

Jenn: 00:45:27

or take the map with you.

Jenn: 00:45:29

Perry Kline's grave site is available to you if you want to see that as well.

Jenn: 00:45:34

And the cotton top hanging site.

Jenn: 00:45:37

Again, you can go to the Paw Paw Trees.

Jenn: 00:45:39

And then, last but not least, you can go to Devil Hatfield's

Jenn: 00:45:44

monument at his gravesite.

Jenn: 00:45:45

There's a statue of him there, so you can go and visit that as well.

Jenn: 00:45:50

There's some other places off the beaten path, you know, Bad Frank Phillips.

Jenn: 00:45:55

His grave is out there.

Jenn: 00:45:56

He ends up marrying Nancy, who was married to Johnsy.

Scott: 00:46:00

Yeah, he did that dude in the show

Jenn: 00:46:02

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:46:02

And he was, again, the daughter of the very first person who was killed.

Jenn: 00:46:06

So I talk about this like this was very much as you, as you start to visit these

Jenn: 00:46:12

sites and go to these locations, they're not far away from each other enough that

Jenn: 00:46:15

you can see how these families are so intertwined and this feud is long term.

Jenn: 00:46:20

But what has happened with these two names is they're synonymous

Jenn: 00:46:24

now with any kind of feud,

Scott: 00:46:27

any sort of family feud.

Jenn: 00:46:28

any family feud, any feud between two people that maybe were

Jenn: 00:46:31

close at one time and now are not.

Jenn: 00:46:33

Maybe a few that's lasted a couple years.

Jenn: 00:46:37

Maybe a feud that is deeply ingrained in you when you're like, I hate him.

Jenn: 00:46:41

Like the Hatfield McCoy, like something that is deeply seated in you.

Jenn: 00:46:44

It's used in that vernacular.

Jenn: 00:46:46

Now it's become a part of our American psyche, this Hatfield and McCoy feud.

Jenn: 00:46:51

So it was really neat to go out there and to visit and to see it,

Jenn: 00:46:55

to understand it better, to kind of give these people more agency and to

Jenn: 00:47:00

understand their lives a little bit more.

Jenn: 00:47:03

But I was really honored to go there to talk to the people.

Jenn: 00:47:06

And like I said,,

Jenn: 00:47:07

the feud is not a hateful thing anymore.

Jenn: 00:47:11

Everybody talks about it pretty much with a smile on their face.

Jenn: 00:47:15

They're very open.

Jenn: 00:47:16

They talk about everything and openly and happily.

Jenn: 00:47:20

So it really is now just a, if you're coming to ask about it, you're

Jenn: 00:47:24

considered kin, you're considered part of America because it's something

Jenn: 00:47:28

that it belongs to all of us now.

Jenn: 00:47:29

It's all of our

Scott: 00:47:31

Yeah, even though there are those with the name still today,

Scott: 00:47:34

it's, it's more local legend than it really is anything else.

Scott: 00:47:44

well, that's all the time we have for this episode.

Scott: 00:47:47

Episode on the Hatfield McCoy feud.

Scott: 00:47:50

A bloody mess, wasn't it?

Scott: 00:47:52

Lives lost, families fractured, all over what started as a squabble over a pig.

Scott: 00:47:57

Hard to believe, ain't it?

Scott: 00:48:00

The feud finally sputtered out and around the turn of the century, but

Scott: 00:48:04

its echoes still linger in these hills.

Scott: 00:48:06

Sure, the Hatfields and McCoys ain't shootin each other anymore,

Scott: 00:48:10

but there's a wariness, a distance that time hasn't opened.

Scott: 00:48:13

Some folks say it's a cautionary tale, a reminder of how easily

Scott: 00:48:19

a spark can turn into a bonfire.

Scott: 00:48:22

Others say it's a testament to the stubborn pride that runs

Scott: 00:48:25

deep in these Appalachian veins.

Scott: 00:48:28

Maybe it's both.

Scott: 00:48:30

Whatever the case, the Hatfield McCoy feud is a story that's woven

Scott: 00:48:33

into the fabric of this place.

Scott: 00:48:35

A story of violence, yes, but also of resilience.

Scott: 00:48:39

Of families clinging to their own versions of the truth.

Scott: 00:48:41

It's a reminder of the dark side of human nature.

Scott: 00:48:44

But also the enduring strength of the human spirit Thank you for

Scott: 00:48:50

listening to the talk with history podcast and please reach out to

Scott: 00:48:52

us at our website talkwithhistory.

Scott: 00:48:54

com But more importantly if you know someone else that might enjoy this

Scott: 00:48:56

podcast, especially this episode on Hatfields McCoy's Shoot him a text

Scott: 00:49:00

and tell him to look us up We rely on you our community to grow and

Scott: 00:49:04

we appreciate you all every day.

Scott: 00:49:06

We'll talk to you next time

Jenn: 00:49:08

Thank you.

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105. History of the Hatfields and McCoys