This episode of The Whole Church Podcast elucidates the intricate relationship between evangelism and missiology, as led by TJ Blackwell. With esteemed participants including Pastor Will Rose, Christian Ashley, Michael Morelli, and Aaron Simmons, the discussion navigates through the complexities of church mission work and the diverse methodologies employed within this domain. The dialogue emphasizes the necessity of understanding the needs of the community while proclaiming the gospel, highlighting that effective evangelism transcends mere numbers and engages deeply with individuals' lived experiences. The speakers explore various theological perspectives, including the implications of doctrinal beliefs on outreach efforts, fostering a robust conversation about the essence of the Church's mission in contemporary society. Ultimately, this roundtable serves as a call to reflect on how we can embody the principles of love and service in our evangelistic pursuits.

The Whole Church Podcast presents a thought-provoking roundtable discussion led by Tiberius Juan Blackwell, focusing on the intricate themes of evangelism and missiology. This episode features an impressive roster of participants, including Pastor Will Rose, Christian Ashley, Michael Morelli, and Aaron Simmons, each bringing their unique insights and theological perspectives to the table. The conversation navigates the complexities of church mission work, exploring the historical and contemporary approaches to evangelism. The participants share their experiences and reflections on how the church can effectively engage with a diverse world, emphasizing the importance of building genuine relationships and understanding the needs of individuals in the community.

Throughout the dialogue, the participants reflect on the various methods of evangelism, contrasting the traditional, often coercive approaches with a more relational and compassionate model. Pastor Will Rose articulates the Lutheran perspective on evangelism, advocating for a balanced approach that integrates proclamation and accompaniment. The discussion also touches upon the ethical dimensions of mission work, with insights from Michael Morelli and Aaron Simmons highlighting the necessity of humility and openness in evangelistic efforts. The episode challenges listeners to consider how their own beliefs and practices align with the mission of the church in fostering unity and embodying the love of Christ in a fragmented society.

As the conversation unfolds, it becomes clear that the participants are committed to redefining evangelism as a joyful participation in the unfolding story of God's grace. The roundtable culminates in a call to action, urging listeners to embrace their unique roles within the broader mission of the church. By prioritizing connection, understanding, and service, the church can truly embody the gospel and be a beacon of hope and reconciliation in the world. This episode serves as a reminder of the transformative power of faith when rooted in genuine relationships and a sincere commitment to meeting the needs of others.

Takeaways:

• In our discussion on evangelism, we emphasize the necessity of understanding individual roles within the Church to foster unity and effective outreach.
• The harrowing of hell, as described in Ephesians, serves as a profound reminder of Christ's comprehensive mission and the Church's role in continuing that work.
• Evangelism must transcend mere ideological debates, emphasizing relationship-building and understanding rather than merely doctrinal correctness.
• A nuanced approach to missions involves accompanying individuals in their spiritual journeys, fostering genuine trust and mutual understanding in faith discussions.

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Check out the DEMOCRACY IN TENSION SUMMIT led by Aaron Simmons and Tripp Fuller mentioned in this episode:

https://homebrewedchristianity.lpages.co/democracy-in-tension-summit-info-page/

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You can leave a donation, buy podcast merchandise, check out previous series that we've done, or become an official member of The Whole Church Podcast on our website:

https://the-whole-church-podcast-shop.fourthwall.com/

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Check out all of the other shows in the Anazao Podcast Network and find merch to support some of your favorite podcasts on the network's website:

https://anazao-podcasts-shop.fourthwall.com/

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Hear more from Will on "Your Matter Matters":

https://your-matter-matters.captivate.fm/listen

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Check out TJ on Systematic Geekology:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/f4c32709-d8ff-4cef-8dfd-5775275c3c5e

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Check out Michael Morelli on Personalist Manifesto(s):

https://personalistmanifestos.substack.com/about

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Hear more from Christian Ashley on Let Nothing Move You:

https://let-nothing-move-you.captivate.fm/listen

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Listen to our other Round Table discussions here:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/af576211-7f60-4495-8b01-f3074b2f836a

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Be sure to come out and meet TJ, Michael, and Will at Theology Beer Camp 2026 in Kansas City:

https://theologybeer.camp/

Ephesians 4, 10, 15 in the Christian Standard Bible say the one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens to fill all things.

And he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ.

Until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God's Son, and growing into maturity with a stature measured by Christ's fullness, then we will no longer be little children tossed by the waves and blown around by every wind of teaching, by human cunning, with cleverness and the techniques of deceit. But speaking the truth in love, let us grow in every way into him who is the head Christ.

So in this letter to the church of Ephesus, St. Paul is writing to describe the nature of what the Church truly is. And here he has just asserted the importance of Christ's harrowing to hell and subsequent ascension to heaven.

Paul draws on the image as Christ gave the Great Commission just before his final ascension and after this pericope, Paul writes of how the Church should be enlightened and not darkened in understanding. Mike Morelli, how might this message of unity and roles in the Church feel tied to the harrowing of hell and the need to pursue understanding?

First of all, let me say that I love this question because it just right out of the gates it is. Let's talk about the passing reference to Jesus descent into hell as a frame for everything else that follows.

That's just such a chef's kiss question for me, hearing that, reflecting on it, I think for me, what it is proclaims is there is no corner of the cosmos that Jesus has not been to and marked that territory and done the type of work that he does.

And like that frames what follows, which is typically when certain groups of people hear that part of Paul's letter, they're thinking about ideology and not being deceived by ideology and guarding doctrine, right, pure doctrine and keeping it pure against ideologies and false doctrine. But the preface is saying, yeah, don't be tossed to and fro by ideology. It's bad.

But it goes deeper than that when it's like, get out of the way of Jesus retrieval of all that has been lost.

Like, don't write anything or anyone or any corner of the cosmos as outside of the retrieval work of Jesus, and don't be tossed to and fro by anything or anyone that is distracting you from that. And to me, that's the kind of mission that I'm inspired by and wanted to get on board for.

All right,.

What is up, guys? Today there's no Josh. It's just me. So today we're doing a round table, which normally, if, you know, if Josh wasn't here, I would just say no. Medium.

Groups of people frighten me a lot. So I don't. It's just not my jam. Like, 300 is cool, two is awesome. Four petrifying.

We'll hold your hand.

Thank you. Call us mid. Did you just call us mid?

No.

Okay.

Just wonder. Medium. That's different.

Yeah.

Okay.

Medium is different. There's difference. Today we're having a little round table about evangelism and missiology.

So, Christian, did you want to do the intros for posterity's sake?

You can do the rest.

I'll take care of you as you.

So we are joined by the one and only Aaron Simmons, returning philosophy professor all around great guy, one of the best mountain bikers in upstate South Carolina. Chill Will from Chapel Hill Rose, big surfer, big pastor, big guy in all of our hearts. Fan favorite, back on the show once again.

And Michael Morelli, personalist manifestos host all around, great guy. What. What else is there to say?

You teach at U.S. northwest College and Seminary.

Yep, yep, yep. Christian Ashley, host of Let Nothing Move you. Aspiring pastor, you know, searching pastor, hopefully soon to be pastor, you know, freshly graduated.

So.

Yeah.

And of course, we are all led today by the person who accompanied Jesus and the harrowing of hell, who led many souls towards righteousness in the midst of that. TJ Blackwell. How's it going, tj, welcome to your show.

Thanks. Thank you. Make sure you go to our website and purchase one of our T shirts.

It helps promote the show, raises money for podcasting needs, and it gets others to know about the importance of our mission to educate and unite the modern church. And I hate play into the bit, but my favorite shirt that we sell is called tj. Quote on the back. That's because there's nothing on the back.

It's just the logo on the front. And it's clean. I love it. Super comfy. If you like listening to us, you should check out the Onazow podcast network website. Link is below.

For shows like this one, shows that aren't like this one, 17 different shows that Christian hosts, a couple different shows that will's on, we've got. It's all over there. Go check it out and you probably won't be disappointed. And if you are, try a different one. Just keep going.

Christian makes something for You. I promise.

Just keep shuffling. You'll get there.

You will get there. But now it is time for Josh's favorite sacrament, and that is silliness. It's impossible to not be united when you are as silly as we like to be here.

So today's silly question, and normally y' all have a little bit more time, but I will go first just to. Just to help. Today, it is. What one character from Pilgrim's Progress would we most like to meet?

So, Pilgrim's Progress, Classic Protestant literature, if you're unfamiliar, and I don't really have a super interesting answer, just Christian. So if anyone has a more interesting answer, because why.

Why is Christian, Ashley. Christian from the book. Is it a. Is a biography of him? Of Christian's life? Okay.

Yeah.

I've never heard that joke before in my life.

Never.

All right, good.

Cool. Yeah. So, Christian, who would you like to meet the most in Pilgrim's Progress?

I feel for my boy pliable. Like, like he was there on the journey. Then the ways of this world came in. Like, I feel like I could get in after that.

Like, look, you feel shame over this, but we can work on this. I can help you in Jesus, man.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, Aaron.

So I admit I'm googling the characters.

That's okay. It's been a while.

According to the AI Breakdown of the main characters and the descriptions of each one. Wow. I, I, I like the idea of faithful, since I write a lot about faith and how to live into faith as a way of life.

Not super stoked about the martyrdom aspect. I prefer to die a very, very, very old person who did not have to be martyred.

As a philosophy professor, talkative kind of resonates, but I don't like the idea that AI tells me this person speaks well but acts poorly, so that seems like a bad option as well. So maybe if we could combine talkative faithful, I'd probably land there somewhere.

All right.

Will, how about you?

How about Aslan? Just kidding. I know.

Yes.

Yeah, man.

No, as I, I googled about five minutes before we got on about the characters, because it's been a hot minute since. Since I, Since I have read this book. But I love the creative names. It's really creative names in this book.

Oh, yeah.

Of all the. All the virtues. And I did see Mal there, so I just got finished watching the Darth Maul See series on Disney Plus.

I don't know if it's the same mall as Star wars, but maybe George Lucas got the name from mall from Christmas Progress. And probably not the best, but. But since I'm going on sabbatical, I. I don't know. Is there a wisdom character?

Like, someone who's, like, wise and can, like, direct and discern?

Well, I exited out of my screen, so I don't know anymore. I don't know.

I'm sure they're in there somewhere.

It's somewhat the virtue of wisdom and discernment to help me guide me through the next three months when I don't have, like, a rigid schedule, what to do with my time in a wise way, because I only have a limited amount of time to do the sabbatical, so I want to make the most of it, but also not be too rigid. So whatever character out there in this story, if they could walk with me, that would be great.

All right. And Mike, bring us home. Surely you are the one who knows the most about Pilgrim's Progress.

Well, I Googled it, too, to be totally honest.

Oh, yeah, we're on fire.

Because when you sent me the outline, I reviewed it, but. And I was like, oh, man, I really need to brush up on Pilgrim's Progress. And then I didn't.

And also, it was a bit fuzzied, if that's a word, by reading through little Pilgrim Big Journey, which are, like the adapted versions for kids that I've read and reread with my youngest, who really likes them. And. What did he call it? Oh, he had this funny, funny way of referring to the book that was not the actual title. Oh. He called it Puddleglum.

Called a Puddleglum, for whatever reason. Yeah, close enough. Right. But I. So actually, I was thinking about this, though. I just need to find the proper name. The Interpreter.

So it's the house that they.

It's like a rest stop along the way, and the Interpreter has this house travelers can stay at, and he shows them pictures and dioramas to teach them the right way to live in the. In the Christian life. So there is. It's a bit of the will vibe here.

Someone help me discern, Give me some rest, show me some cool art, and help me figure out this thing called life in this Pilgrim's Journey. That would be. That would be my first inclination, I would say.

All right.

Hey, this doesn't feel super silly, though.

What's.

It doesn't.

I feel like he set us up. But what's sillier than no one knowing the answer?

Yeah, true.

Been over 10 years since I read the book.

You know, I'm lucky I remember Christian, right? It doesn't get Much sillier than that. But for the for their actual real episode that we hopefully do know about.

There are a few ways that the church has historically gone about missions and evangelism. And there have been times that the church is focused on conquest and forcing people into the faith.

There are times the church focuses on preaching, calling people to convert. And there are times when the church will go somewhere and try to do work to help the community as mission work.

And how have us here seen that done in the churches that we attend or are members of going to make will go first because he is probably. I'm not going to accuse anyone of skipping church, but he probably goes to church the most.

Yeah, that's true. That's true. Except this summer. Except this summer I won't. Yeah.

So is this before we're not talking about like accompaniment yet and kind of our understanding of what that is and kind of the Luther traditions kind of like in general. What in terms of angel. Well, yeah, yeah.

I think Lutheran as a Lutheran minister as a kind of progressive Lutheran minister in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.

We we when there was a merger of some Lutheran denominations in the 80s Lutherans Re My my denomination reclaim Luther's definition of what the church should be in evangelism. He didn't necessarily like the church being called Lutheran when people call him Lutherans. He felt that offensive.

It was kind of a dig at him of creating something new. So he wanted to recreate this kind of you angelion2theu what he's reading in the Greek of proclaiming the good news of Jesus Christ.

So the Evangelical Lutheran Church America reclaimed or wanted to reclaim evangelical.

Now over the last decade or so, a few decades there's been some movements and talks about whether to change that name because we don't be associated with mainstream American evangelicalism at this point. But that still out there. Lutherans take a long time to make decisions like any like any large church.

But I but I would say like we are definitely a both and denomination. Whether we believe we're both saint and sinner, we preach law and grace. We. We are a both and denomination.

So I think this kind of idea of proclaiming and preaching the good news of Jesus Christ but also accompanying and walking alongside and meeting people's needs along the way is is kind of how we views evangelism and mission of the church. I can talk a little bit more later on in terms of what we mean by comfortment after other people chat there. But but I think we're kind of a both end.

Yes we believe in proclaiming the good news of the grace of God found in in Christ, but also walking with people and meeting their everyday physical needs as well in terms of the mission field.

All right, Aaron, how about you? What does the churches you've attended or been members of, how do you. How did y' all handle missions and evangelism?

I mean, it's. It's probably fairly fraught in my tradition. So I grew up Pentecostal. I still identify as a Pentecostal, though.

If I remember right, our last conversation, I was talking some about why I no longer go to those churches very regularly. And it has to do with Will's point about not wanting to be associated with what that has now come to mean.

I love Pentecostal's history and the tradition and its justice forward commitment to the priesthood of all believers. I'm not a big fan of what that looks like in a age of MAGA and Christian nationalism.

That said, what evangelicalism has meant has long been in these traditions very much a understanding of the Great Commission as going and making disciples.

Right.

And so there has definitely, in the churches I grew up in, been a heavy emphasis on especially, you know, missions to other places. And so you end up with a kind of exoticism of, you know, the far flung corners of the world that have never heard the gospel that we possess.

And so we've got to do this particular thing in order for them not to end up in eternal conscious punishment and, you know, the depths of hell. And so that very much was the sort of culture I grew up in.

When I was in college, I remember going with some friends of mine just from the dorm down to the local mall. And I guess it's also when malls were things, but we'd go to the mall and walk around and just tell people about Jesus.

And I was a drummer for a choir in college. And so we would travel all over the country, all over the world.

And the whole point was, you know, somebody might meet Jesus through hearing one of our songs, right? So evangelism was very connected to an exclusivist soteriology where we were on the inside.

They, whether next door or around the world, were on the outside. And the only way for them to get in was for us to go meet them and invite them in.

Now, as a hopeful universalist who's repudiated and rejected that soteriology, I find most of those evangelical models of missions to not only be problematic, but actually to be deeply wedded to an idolatry of a very particular conception of liberal individualism and a very particular conception of American nationalism. And so my relationship to that tradition in which I was raised is now complicated.

And hopefully I still witness for the other oriented God of love that I take to be named by the person of Christ.

And I would rather that happen by living a life where justice, mercy and humility define my existence rather than propositional assent to a very particular faith statement that reinforces then money coming back into my denomination. So that would probably be the way.

I would narrate it real fast just to try one. Aaron, man, those are some impressive words strung along in some impressive sentences. So well said. You must teach, like with words and stuff.

It's pretty good. I'm very impressed.

I will also say you sparked understanding of relationship that is not just a proclamation and throwing doctrine or Bible verses at people.

I think also my denomination and personal view is that evangelism, evangelism, mission is deeply conversational and relational and with mutual trust between people and communities. And so you enter into relationship with people in order to understand them that understand you. And there's a mutuality of, of give and receive.

So, so in terms of understanding of, of mission, evangelism, me personally, but also I think my denomination, my church, we start with relationships and conversations rather than I'm just going to do this revival and the whole, the whole world's going to be saved because saying the right Bible verses in the right order for people, but it's, it's. How do you get to know someone, understand where they're coming from, what their deep needs are, what they're longing for.

Before you give Jesus as the answer, how about finding out where their question is first kind of thing. So I think that's right.

I mean, and the only thing I would add to that is anchored in the way I approach argumentation.

So argument is also one of those words that we've got to be very careful about in today's society because it typically just means political theater where I win if I make my opponents look stupid.

And I teach my students and in my work, and especially on my substack philosophy in the wild, I talk a lot about this where argumentation is not trying to convince the other person of the correctness of your views. Argumentation is trying to be transformed to the view of the other if their reasons are better than yours, right?

That transformation of look, I have to give good reasons for my views so that I'm not taken in by bad reasons for other people's views. But that commitment is not my supremacy or my winning or my Authority.

It's about the recognition that, no, no, no, I'm going into this to be transformed. But that then also means what you bring to the table can't just be anything. Right? It's got to be a very particular kind of thing.

And so that's where when it comes to missions, it's not. Do you go in with arguments? Well, I hope you got some, but it's much more. Are you going in with humility, hospitality and gratitude?

Are you going in with a commitment to human flourishing and the human dignity of all people, regardless of their epistemic commitments?

And so I care far less that you believe P and Q and R than you live a life that reflects the point of why P, Q and R are something worth believing in the first place.

Right, Right. All right. So if anyone was trying to narrow it down, Aaron was in college at least seven years ago. At least seven. Back when malls existed.

It's been a minute.

Yeah, a little while. So, Mike, for you guys and your churches, what was. What's the missiological stance?

So I kind of have it backwards to Aaron's story where actually grew up in more episcopal setting like mainline liberal Protestant parents and family, and then found my way into the evangelicalism that Aaron described. Not sort of capital E or all caps, evangelicalism in some of the ways that Aaron was describing, but definitely evangelicalism.

Christian Missionary alliance within Canada and then now Baptist Tradition Fellowship Baptist, which is historically and presently conservative.

And one of the challenges, but I would also say the benefits and opportunities of being somebody such as myself who has had that journey is that I occupy this very precarious, liminal space where I'm an observer and participant and not always in support of what I'm observing and therefore not participating, but observing as a grouch. So like to, to.

To speak in direct terms like it is afforded me the awareness that there is no such thing as a perfect tradition and perfect group of people and perfect missiology. There are just people and missiologies and there are rich layers to those traditions and then there are aspects that are not so rich.

And this is what I constantly say to students within a more conservative evangelical context. If you are going to conserve something, you better make damn sure it's worth conserving and cultivating.

This is part of the work of a, you know, ever reforming church. Right.

Like we say once before, everywhere actually like living true to that, to say, where has the Spirit brought me and how do I observe and participate with some self reflection. So that's all lead up to What I'll say, which is, I do observe a kind of triumphalistic missiology within the tradition I currently am a part of.

So it's like, well, we're the chosen and we go out and share the good news, yes, in word, but also in deed. And we do that so that we might see people be saved.

And we know people are saved when they can, as Aaron said, sign on to some confessional, propositional truths. We celebrate that, we baptize, we get them into the church, and then we try to disciple them.

But we're still kind of figuring out what that is because all of our resources are going to the first part.

And once we get them in, it's into a very programmatic way of doing church, which, if you're trying to actually disciple people, you're swimming upstream, right? So this is where, you know, Will and Aaron, you're talking about. No, it's, it's, it's, it's friendship, it's.

It's relationship and hospitality before you tell them something that you think is of eternal significance, right?

So it's living within this paradox of, like, if something matters to you, you want to tell people about it, but also there needs to be a relational rapport before you do it.

But with this triumphalism, I actually think the shadow side of it is it just generates this kind of functional nihilism and better than thou approach to mission, which just cuts off any possibility or it limits the possibility of this type of deeper relationship to form. And so how do we let our love, which we have received from God, lead the way in which we form connections with all manner of people?

And along the way there may be some dialogue, right? This is why I tell people all the time, like, look, you want to talk, you know, truths and rational. I'm like, I can do that for hours.

Let's go sit down, Do. I'm like, I don't know that we should do this yet. Why don't we just hang out?

Before we get into that, I'm like, however, this may be the way that your bread is buttered, and this may be how you make friends. If this, if I get to your heart or we get to your heart through your head, fine. But don't feel like this needs to be a debate.

Like, I just want to be pals before I tell you where I think your soul's going to end up or where I think my soul is going to end up, so I'll end here. What really fascinates me being in this liminal space and Realizing there's like no perfect approach or tradition is.

I was talking to a student just earlier today, and he said this. He said, you know, after a while with church, you go to a place that you expect to feel God and you don't. What is that?

And I was like, yeah, and then what is it? That after a while you go to places you don't expect to feel God, and you do. And that's the type of mission that I think God truly is on.

Right.

Great Commission paired with the Beatitudes and those parts of the Bible where Jesus is like, hey, you know that place where nobody thinks that I would be? That is exactly where I am. And that is a beautiful thing about the mission of the Triune God is. It is.

It is most evident in the places where we don't think it is. So it's not in the megachurch that, like, used to be a mall, you know, and is now a church or it's. It.

And.

And like, if somebody from the street comes on, people are like, oh, who's this person? We better get them to the person who's in charge of that.

And it's also not in the older cathedral where people are like, well, I'll, you know, I'll give money to see folks like this helped out, but I actually don't want to sit by them and get to know their story. And I'm like, no, no, no. The mission of God is precisely there in that world. Not the, The. The. The.

The church worlds that we've become accustomed to and kind of. We think in some cases, yeah, like we've got it right. And. And they don't. Or God's here, not there.

Right.

Let me chime in real. Just because you sparked an idea, the. Or a word, I think trust in relationships. So we enter into this building trust and mutuality and friendship.

I think when it becomes agenda or bait and switch, sometimes people sniff that out. But in terms of how I think about evangelism and mission today, I'm thinking of relationship, but also how do I build trust with this other person?

And mutuality. And so that. That's something that you sparked in that conversation, I thought was really well said. Thanks.

Yeah, he's. He's a smart guy.

People pick that up. It's. It's like that weird phenomenon. I think people will just in.

It's at that unconscious level, but it's kind of like, I'm Canadian, so I gotta, like, bring it up at some point. It's like when I go to. Go to, like, Southern States, you're like, man, people are so nice here.

But I also get the sense that, like, if I just, you know, prod here or poke there, I might get shot.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? It's like that's kind of like the evangelism strategy, like, of, oh, Christian. Like, so many Christians are like, so nice and so just like obliging.

But you're like, why am I picking up that if I say this or do that, like, you're going to be.

Thrown into the bits of hell.

Exactly right.

Shunned. Shunned immediately.

Well, and Michael, you may not know this, but I've talked about this on other podcasts many, many, many times. But, you know, I've been asked to leave lots of churches and in every single case it was because I had asked questions.

Not because I thought I had something figured out or was there to tell them how they should do it, but because I was perplexed by and maybe.

Even try to make friends.

Well, yeah, I mean, like for me, famously, I was at this one church and they had a conference about Christianity and gender coming up and I went to one of the pastors and I said, that's so cool. I'm glad that we're having a conversation about this. You think it's a problem there are no women speakers?

And you know, that that was like, I don't think this is the right church for you. Yeah, probably not. So, so that, like, if you, if you scratch under the surface.

Yes.

There's a lot of. It's what I call a hermeneutics of silence.

Yes.

Where instead of a hermeneutics of suspicion, where we are now just like walking around trying to tear down and be critical and aware, which I engage in a lot as a philosopher, I think, think largely white evangelical American churches tend to be operative on a hermeneutics of suspicion, where as long as you fit a very narrow box that does not require us to interrogate our assumptions of silence, we just stay silent about this. Then you'll fit fine. As soon as you say, wait a minute, let's reflect about these assumptions. Why do we think this?

What would it look like if we understood it differently?

Why then would those people be seen as maybe closer or further away if we reconsidered this as soon as you are not silent, that ends up inevitably showing some of the fragility of the community that they claim to be so deep. And so I agree entirely with you. There's a self protective theology that often replicates itself through missiology.

Because it's not now interested in how do we cultivate relations of trust. It's how do we replicate the community where we don't talk about hard stuff. Yeah, right now we brag about talking about hard stuff. Right.

This, you know, the Acts 29 garbage. And so there's a lot of, oh, look how, you know, gnarly we are. We'll talk about whatever.

And you're like, no, what you're doing is just saying truly repugnant stuff and then acting like you're doing good theology. That's not what I mean by talking about hard things. I'm saying, are any of us living up to the economic model of Acts? Nope.

Well, maybe we have work to do. Right? Well, maybe we need to interrogate healthcare models. Maybe we need to think differently about economic policy.

Those kinds of ideas are enough to get you escorted out. Which I will say to anybody who wants to leave a church, you almost always will get invited to coffee with a pastor.

So they'll usually buy you a cup of coffee while telling you you're no longer welcome at our church. From experience.

Right. So Christian for you and your church is what has missiology and evangelism been like?

Well, I'll say real quick, Joshua is going to be very unhappy when he sees the size of this audio file and love him to death. It's kind of his fault. Yeah. He brought four out of the five people here who are very long winded. Love the talk.

So love you, buddy, but hate to say it, you brought it down yourself.

It would have been worse if he was here.

We just met and you called me long winded. I'm glad that we have that trust.

It's a good guess.

Out of love. I will say such things. So for me, this is something that has always been a part of my life.

I can't remember a time where I wasn't aware of these concepts from as long as I can go back memory wise and being like, hey, we have a huge calling here. We have a personal responsibility for all these things, to reach the lost, to speak about truth to the world.

And building off of, as said before the Great Commission.

And of course we had the final words of Jesus before he sends into heaven Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, ends of the earth, has been in my head for a very long time because it was like, hey, this is part of what we're supposed to be doing. Like, you kind of think one of the last things Jesus says, kind of fairly important, wasn't the final thing that he said, but it's in there.

So what are we doing about that? And I learned along the way what I'm good at, what I'm bad at. And I'm not an evangelist at heart. It's just not me. I'm not a people person.

I am an isolationist that I have to fight against every single day. I'm misanthropic, as I've said many times before. And I've also had to fight against that every single day.

And yet Jesus is telling me, look, look at you. Look at what you're doing. How would that have happened without people pouring into you in their personal ministries and their personal missions?

So why aren't you going out and doing the same? And you know what? That was big to learn that, you know, it's not just me. It's not just lone wolf Christian who can do whatever he wants.

I've got to go out and I've got to serve wherever that's at. You know what? I'm never going to be Billy Graham or any William Carey or anyone like that. And that's okay, because that's who they were called to be.

I'm called for something different. I've had friends before call me an insidious evangelist because I don't open up conversations with, hey, you want to come to church?

It's always, hey, getting to know them personally, seeing what they like, where we, you know, drive well together. And then after that going, now that we've established this rapport, and I go in New Year's and go, what about the church?

Would you come with me to Sunday? And I did not know I was doing that purposefully until it was pointed out to me. It's like, oh, well, I guess that's how I'm wired.

Someone else, they'd be a street peach for all day long. That's where God has called them to be. Someone else is going to be called overseas, elsewhere, and that's great. My job is to support them.

So as part of that growing up, it was always that sense of, okay, I am told to tithe. Part of the tithing we do at this church is to is for missions.

So they always specify like, this is for building funds, this is for miscellaneous stuff. This is for missions.

I always said, you know, whatever I'm getting, as meager as it is, the vast majority going to missions because I know local and abroad, that's where the biggest impact is going to happen. So the churches I've been with, I say the vast majority have always had something local. The one I'M currently at.

We have a food pantry that's open up during the week multiple times where people can come in if they're in hard times. We reach with them, see what's going on, pray with them, give them something to eat. We serve with a local ministry called the King's Daughter.

That's for battered women, abused women and their children to make sure that they're taken care of. Recently we had some people from Wycliffe come over and I always thought it was Wycliffe. It's Wycliffe.

And we have raised money to pay for the translation in Malo. Excuse me, Malawi, for all of the Gospel of Mark, all for first and Second Timothy.

I think because we had asked for this and we gave more than was asked, and to be a part of that makes me feel great. Not because, oh, just look at me, look how great everything is with what's going on, but like, no, actually doing something that will impact someone.

I will never know until I'm up there in heaven. They say, hey, you are a part of this. I'm here because of you and because of that person, because of them. That means the world to me.

Christian, when you speak, I'm thinking of the Bible verse that kicked off this episode where there's different roles and gifts that people have and not everyone's called to every single one of those. That it was like Pauline personality Enneagram, Myers Briggs test.

I guess before there's Meyer Briggs or in the Graham, there was Pauline talking about the gifts of the spirit, that we each have gifts. Extroverts, introverts, all the above. But yeah, I mean, I think, I think part of that is discerning our gifts and, and where God is calling us.

And some are, are meant to be, are called to be up front and lead the big revival or preaching or teaching. Some, some are more behind the scenes and support staff and, and it's just as important than it is the, the one up front.

So, so I, I think your discernment there and speaking to where gifts and how God uses that for the building up of the kingdom, as it says in that verse, I think is, Is pretty important. I'm glad you, I'm glad you lifted.

That up and I'm glad we brought up spiritual gifts again because one of the previous times that Aaron Simmons was in a roundtable discussion, we discussed the fruits of the spirit and whether or not they are available to those outside of Christianity.

So, Aaron, you said something like thinking about it as knowing a good fishing hole and wanting to share which is unrealistic that you found a good fishing hole with others. So how might that metaphor or that way of thinking impact how we think about missions and evangelism?

Yeah. When Josh reached out and he was like, hey, I want you on this episode, I was like, dude, are you sure I'm the wrong guy?

I'm kind of opposed to evangelism and missions as it's traditionally understood. He was like, yeah, no. Remember this great metaphor you used? Genuinely don't remember using that metaphor. I think it's a cool one. But here's.

I guess what I must have meant, which is part of wanting to share the good fishing hole, which, again, is. Is absolutely an anthem. You don't share about your honey hole, what that means.

My roommate found it.

Yeah. All the people find it now. It sucks, right? This is a bad idea. You always keep it to yourself.

Anybody who's ever posted a picture holding a fish on any, like, trout fishing, you know, Facebook group. A thousand response. Oh, amazing. Where were you? And the response is, somewhere I'm not telling you about. Right.

So despite the stretching of the imagination here, what I mean, I think is this.

Where I find true joy, where I find my sense of existential fulfillment, where I find what I would describe as the greatest traction with the human condition without trying to overcome it, is somewhere like, where I'm catching trout on that spot on the trout fishing stream, right? It's wow. Everything has come together. This is what contentment is. And so why wouldn't I want to invite others into that space, right.

That this is everything I think is Right. So how can I get more people to vibe with this? I am going this weekend to a metal show, a death core band called Signs of the Swarm.

And I'm super stoked. I'm taking my son. And I think mosh pits are like this too. Despite the obvious violence.

It's like I want all my friends to come with me and stage dive into this. This place where true embodied togetherness and contentment happen. Right?

So that idea is, if I were to give the best version of evangelism that I could, It's. I want everybody to know about the thing that is worth all of my investment, that is worthy of my time.

I want everybody to be as stoked about this thing that actually gets me excited.

It.

Right.

And in that sense, yeah, why wouldn't I want to tell people about a God of love who stands with the widow, the orphan, the stranger who tells us that all the divine wants is justice, mercy, and humility, Right? Like I would do that every single day if I could. Is there a way to do that without it circumscribing?

I've got a thing that now I can pass to you in some sort of capitalistic exchange logic. That's what I want to avoid. And that's why I think the honeyhole metaphor, the fishing hole, works for me, because it's not.

I've got the thing now I'm giving it to you. It's no, hey, come join me in this awesome space. But your being here changes this space now, right?

And.

And we've got to find a way to be here together. It's not a limited resource like a. You can fish out a spot.

You can't. You can't overfish the Holy Spirit.

It's not something you're gonna fish out. There's the quote.

There's the quote on the back of the shirt. Come on, tj.

Boom. Look at you. See, we're holding your hand.

Well done.

And we have led you to the front of the ship, and we are holding you from behind. And you are flying right now, tj.

I finally get my roast, even if.

The ship's going around.

Here we go.

You're the king of the world.

It's a good moment to bring in the accompaniment aspect that it is the perfect moment.

Yeah.

And so the ELCA Lutheran brand of Lutheranism, over the years, in terms of how we understand mission evangelism, has used the word accompaniment. And so it is like, let me come along with you and learn from you that this space has been changed, our relationship has changed.

This open and relational aspect, hymenism that's happened with. With our relationship opens up possibilities to understand the Spirit more, the gifts of the Spirit. How I see Jesus, how you see Jesus.

And so our students in our campus ministry, we have an organization with the ELC called Young Adults in Global Mission. And it's basically a gap year.

Young adults who have finished college or looking for jobs or thinking out what' necks in their lives, they're sent overseas into another country to do a year of missions, and it's called Young Adult Club Mission.

And it has an accompaniment model, in a sense that our campus, new campus pastor, Pastor Katie, after she graduated from unc, went over to Madagascar for an entire year to learn from them. Yeah.

To help teach school and to teach English and to experience and share what Lutheran is from her perspective, but also to learn from them what they have going on from there. So it's this mutuality of learning. We had an another student Last year, who went to Cambodia for a year.

She was, grew up in North Carolina, super nervous. Wanted to go to like England or Mexico, but got Cambodia. She was like, what? What's going on? Did not want to go. But she stuck to her.

Stuck to it and went and it changed her life because not only did she. They experience her, but she experienced them.

So you walk alongside and what she learned is like, oh, they're experiencing God in new ways that are changing me that I can then bring back when I come back to North Carolina and share that with my church, with, with the people that I work with, with the people I'm in relationship that, that she's forever changed by. So a covenant is a word that us ELCA Lutherans lean into pretty hard when it comes to evangelism and mission. Yes, we.

We have some good news to proclaim. Yeah, we. How we understand grace and salvation and the sacraments and, and how we do worship and those kinds of things.

And yet we know that God's at work in the world in ways that, that we need to learn from as well. So.

Yeah. Yeah. So will is gonna run short on time here shortly.

I run short on time every day because I run short on everything every day because I'm not very tall. If that wasn't clear. One thing that we like to do, and you know we like to do it, it's called our round table roundup.

So I've got four questions, I'm gonna read them all out and then everybody's going to choose one I have to go to. You choose one of the questions, answer. No one is allowed to respond or ask follow ups until after the roundup is complete.

If we feel like we can all pick the same question, if not, you know, do what you want, answer the question that you want, I'm going to read them all out and then when I ask for your answer and your question, I'll reread it for you. Everybody clear? Good. So question A today is how important is our doctrine of hell to our stance on evangelism?

Such as if we believe in universalism, will that impact our felt need to try to convert others? Or if we believe in eternal conscious torment, does that create a greater urgency to call for converts?

Question B is, should we consider which method produces the best results results, or do we only look to biblical and historical models to see how its missiology should be done, with no regard to what seems most effective? Question C is if a church group is preaching the word and truth or not actively trying to help the needs of the community they go to?

Is that a meaningless mission? Is that faith without works? Question D. Is, is there a meaningful difference in contextualization, in mission work, and in synchronization?

How is contextualizing the gospel different from blending our religion in with other beliefs?

So.

I will. I will go first. Give everyone a little bit more time to think about the question they want to ask and answer.

So I'm going to go for A, which is, how important is our doctrine of hell to our stance on evangelism? Universal, maternal, conscious torment. To me, I don't think our doctrine on hell is particularly important.

That's just me personally, just because evangelism is something called to. Regardless of whether or not you believe someone is going to be eternally, consciously tormented for converting or not, I still want them.

I still want to evangelize class, still want them to convert. It doesn't matter if I think they're gonna, you know, suffer forever if they don't, because that's what I want. But I'm. I'm a weird guy.

So, you know, there's. There's that. Okay. So, Will, what question would you like to answer for us today?

Yeah, I'm gonna kind of cheat a little bit. I'm tempted to go with A, but I. I'm. I'm gonna go with B. I think A, you know, in terms of how. It's not very important.

I think it is an important conversation to have around salvation in terms of how we understand hell or separation from God and those things.

But when it's used as, like, a weapon or spiritual terrorism or as a threat, that being used as evangelism to scare people into joining your insider group is disturbing and I think perhaps problematic. But B, when it talks about, like, the method or procedure, I don't think you can use a formula. I'm not like a Romans road kind of guy.

For me, I think before we give Jesus as the answer to people, we need to understand what their questions are first and get to know them and what they're doing. So I don't. I don't want to assume Jesus is the answer for whatever problem or what they're wrestling with or whatever is going on.

I really want to walk alongside, accompany them to understand, have a mutual understanding of trust and friendship before I start giving Jesus as the answer for things. I believe in Jesus. I believe Jesus is the answer to many, many questions.

And yet I think, if we're just going to boil it down now, there are methods that work for folks, and there's books written on how to evangelize.

And, but I, I think before we kind of plug in a math equation or a formula to some kind of evangelism that's going to get us 100 new members or grow the kingdom of God, I think we have to sit with people and walk with people and understand where they're coming from first before we plug in a like formula or equation. I hope that makes sense.

So, so, Mike Morelli, what question are you feeling like answering for us today?

Well, big surprise. I kind of feel like answering all of them, but I'll go with D because it hasn't been chosen yet.

But I also find this question to be very interesting and generative for thought for myself, but also with students because I like to ask them, what is the difference between contextualization and synchronization? Syncretism.

And a lot of people within the type of context that I teach and in worship would say, well, you know, the, the essentials are the essentials. And then you contextualize them for people. And syncantrism is when you compromise on those essentials in order to like reach people.

But then, you know, it's sort of like you water down the truth or you, you adapt the truth to the point where it's no longer recognizable. And then I ask the follow up question, what are the essentials? And this is where implicit or explicit syncretism starts to appear.

Because often where I am, this is framed through deeply, deeply rooted logics of colonialism which tells you us that the gospel can't be in a place until someone brings it to somebody else.

And, and those people don't know God or don't know Jesus or don't know the gospel or don't right until a particular chosen group of people bring it to them and tell them the right words and give them the right concepts and give them right practices and then maybe they can get it.

And, and of course, and if, and if those people bringing the truth aren't careful, then it'll be syncretism and we'll all end up in eternal conscious torment. Like I say that kind of like in jest, but it's actually kind of part of the deeply rooted logics.

And so this is where I say, well, if the world is the Lord's and the fullness thereof, can we imagine a God big and enough to already be there when we show up wherever we are?

Can we imagine that the person in the place that we haven't been to before might already be attuned to the presence and work of the divine and liturgically, spiritually, religiously engage with that in a way that might be more essential than the essentials that we think we have. Like, is that so preposterous? And to me, the answer is, no, it's not so preposterous. And this, this is where I got to go with Luther, right?

His theology of the Word. Like, the Word is not just words. It is a word that creates things out of nothing.

It is the Word that becomes concrete and it is embedded in the cosmos. Like you can't get away from it.

So it's like we're telling people about a good fishing hole, but then we meet something as we're walking back and we bump into somebody who's like, you think you got a good, good fishing spot? Come check this out. Am I curious enough to be like, show me. Show me what you got.

This could be either amazing or it could be okay, or it could really suck. But I'm going to go on the journey because I'm going to assume that I might be pleasantly surprised.

Like that, to me, is the posture of the mission of God that I see reflected in the Bible.

And to me it's just like, not only is that, like, I think, a more fruitful way to think about mission, it's just so much more interesting than telling everybody you're doing it wrong. Because then I get to learn some stuff and I'm being formed as other people being formed.

And I'm like, I'm pretty sure that this is what we see happening in God's mission from Genesis to revelation. So everybody just needs to like, not think that their version is the only non syncretistic or contextualized one.

Right? All right, Christian Ashley, what question would you like to answer?

Well, it's a surprise favor when not A, it should be self apparent while I'm there, but I actually leave a B. Should we consider which method produces the best results, or do we only look to biblical and historical models to see how it.

If machiology should be done with no regard to what seems most effective? It's not a one size fits all issue here. There is no singular way in which to be evangelistic in which to be a missionary. It is.

Who has God called you to be? If the only way to make someone end up meeting Christ is to be a street preacher, I'm out of the equation. It's not who I am.

Other people are gifted in that regard. They can be on a person, meet them for the first time ever, speak truth in their lives, and it's Great. That's how God designed them.

Me, game over, man. Like, can't do it. But if it actually meets, meeting with the.

With a person, getting to know them more over time, gaining their trust, that has worked very successfully. And sometimes not successfully with me. Like, I don't have 100 success rate, you know, because no one does. Not even Jesus did.

He failed to convert the Pharisees because their hearts were so far apart from God and they're going to end up where they're supposed to be. It's not Jesus's fault that happened. He did what he could for him. So all these things, like, we need people who are great at apologetics involved.

Like, people are going to have questions. I excel at that a little bit more. Someone has an issue with the problem of evil or, you know, I have church hurt. Well, so did I.

And I've also felt that too.

I can be with you in that moment or if it's something I don't have a context for, I can at least listen to them, see what's going on and actually be with them in that time to help answer their questions as best as possible. And also learning three magical words.

I don't know which is what you say when you don't know the answer to a question, but I do know person X who is capable of this. Would you mind if I brought them in or person Y is went through the same thing you did. I can bring them in.

You can help relate to them the way you can't. To me, like, there is no one size fits all method here.

Like, I have never been plucked from the road to go meet the Ethiopian unit, but I have been in moments of my life where I was the only person in this person that I have never met before life who just happened to strike up a conversation with me. And that's what they needed, was to hear the Gospel. So just be prepared and know that you're not suited for everything and other people are.

So that's why we're the body. Some people are arms, some people are legs. You know, you all know how it's supposed to go there. Like, just use it effectively.

All right. And last but not least, Aaron Simmons, what question would you like to answer for our roundtable roundup today?

So just because it's not been chosen, I'll do C. Which if you want to read it again for the. The fine folks.

Yep.

If a church group is preaching the word in truth, but are not actively trying to help the needs of the community they're in, is that A meaningless mission like faith without works.

So I would just challenge the. The idea that you could preach the word in truth if you're not meeting the needs of your community. I am with Kierkegaard on this one.

I think that would be misunderstanding what the gospel is.

And so as far as I'm concerned, God can move through all kinds of broken vessels and thank God that this happens, or, you know, I would be pretty worthless in the world. However, I don't have much interest in hearing about who God is for people who don't love immigrants.

I don't have much interest in hearing about who God is for people who are fine with health care not being offered to the poor.

I'm okay not hearing about who people think God is if they're okay with the devastation happening in Gaza and not seeing the moral dignity of those people.

I'm fine not being educated about who God is by folks who are okay with authoritarianism that undermines democratic commitments to the epistemic equality of their neighbor. So my view is that's not the word.

In truth, that's a false gospel anchored in a very particular conception of self importance and Americanized notions of God. Look, looking an awful lot like white heterosexual men. And as far as I'm concerned, I'm better off without that God.

So I am a fan of telling people about the kindness that I think is modeled by a God who shows up in the world as servant, who says, I'm involved with all of you, I love you all, but I'm very much more on the side with, like Bono who says, why don't we go where God is acting, where God is working.

And that's almost always going to be with the marginalized, the oppressed, the outcast and the forgotten, not the empowered who happen to find themselves in Christian nationalist churches while running the Department of Defense and bringing in three theological justifications for eliminating the lives of those that God loves. So that would be my answer to see.

All right, so now that we have completed our roundup, Micah, I think that was your first one, right? Your first round?

I believe so, because there was another one where it's just like rapid fire. But yeah, that was different than Roundup.

Okay.

Yeah, cool. So congratulations. Now is usually the more fun part for, for our guests.

Now that we're done, do we have any rebuttals, follow ups, general responses to anything?

I have a question to Christian, because Christian you said, almost as if it would be obvious where you would stand on the question about hell. I'm just interested in where that would be.

Yeah, we're meeting for the first time, so I should be a little more. Not obvious. Because it's not obvious. Yeah, I am eternal punishment.

I am eternal separation for people who have, you know, the final blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not following God, is not becoming his servant and having every opportunity in the world do so, and God honoring their choices and them sending themselves really to hell. And yeah, I'm not happy about that. I'm not like, yes, I'm so happy that person that I hate is going to be there forever.

It's like, no, that's part of my personal responsibility as well. Admissions and evangelism is also to avoid that. That fate, if possible, if they've actually been called.

I appreciate. I appreciate you explaining that my. And I. I have lots of.

My philosopher of religion in me wants to, like, take the bait because I think that view is morally repugnant. But I am interested in the fact that T.J. you said a would have no difference. And it sounds like Christian.

You're saying, well, it doesn't have any difference because we're called to evangelize. And there's this real outcome for why we should.

I'm on the side that says, as a hopeful universalist, it radically changes the way I understand evangelism and missiology.

Not in the sense of, do I want to live a life that hopefully becomes part of a cloud of witnesses for anybody who sees it and finds that of some compelling, you know, account of who God might be. But I definitely think our doctrine of hell does change the way we understand mission.

And for what it's worth, Christian, I actually think part of what was so heavy and impossibly heavy growing up in that very same view that you hold, I was there until easily my early 30s.

But part of the change was also I just couldn't bear the weight of the responsibility that something I would say might be the only occasion that would have created for that person that opportunity to avoid that eternal punishment. And so this sheer sense of, oh, dear God, have I been the reason that person didn't know who Jesus was? And eventually that also became unsustainable.

So I appreciate the clarification. That's helpful.

Yeah.

Yeah, it is interesting.

That's why it's fun when a bunch of people choose the same answer, the same question to answer, because trust and I kind of have the same answer, but for completely different reasons.

It's cool.

So, yeah, it's always been something on my heart because I always remember we probably all Heard this at some point in time. I shouldn't assume. That's my problem for today.

That quote from Tangella, Penn and Teller fame of how he only really has respect for Christians who are actually evangelizing other people. Because if you actually believe in this hell, if you actually believe in this place of eternal torment and you're not telling me about it.

Yeah, he's not a Christian to this day, but at least you cared enough to say something. And I would say to the burden. The fact of that, yeah, there is a bird, but we work for the God who can take our burdens away.

Yeah.

Right. That is a really old Seinfeld episode.

Right.

I mean, this is.

This is the Seinfeld episode where Elaine's dating David Putty and she finds out he's a Christian, and she's like, why aren't you trying to save my soul? Yeah. And he's like, this is why you're going to hell, because you're too bossy. Right. So there is definitely a.

Like, if you really believed that thing. I. I don't know.

Yeah.

Like, how do we go to movies instead of being on the streets talking to people? If we really believe this, how are we not, you know, why would we ever go to a concert when in fact we could be outside trying to witness. Like.

Like, I do think there is a consistency problem for some people, but I like Christian, that you're biting that bullet. I think that's admirable.

I just want to sort of add a little analogy that has been fermenting that may contribute to this or maybe help resolve some of the tension or unload some of the weight. And I did a meme the other day where it was, you know, the spider man crying meme, like Peter Parker crying meme and then smiling.

The caption for it was Sad Dads when they hear Bryce Desner quietly remolding the pop soundscape. Now, that's a deep, deep cut reference. But Bryce Desner plays in the indie band the National. The national is like sad dad music.

It's just like, it's not niche. Like, they're more popular now than they were when they started.

Yeah.

Almost mainstream.

But ever since Bryce Desner produced Taylor Swift's Folklore album, other pop musicians like Mumford and Sons, he did their new album and Noah Kahn's new album, he's been producing. And so here's the analogy. Bryce Desner needs the pop stars, and the pop stars need Bryce Desnickers. Right. Like, and. And they need different things.

So, like, Bryce Desner needs Perseverance being a musician, like struggling to make it and making genuinely good music that, that doesn't just fit within the like three, three minute, three and a half minute, like radio play stuff. Like, he needs perseverance to continue doing that art and hopefully get noticed by people whose tastes go beyond just like the reductive framework.

Right? And Taylor Swift needs.

And Marcus Mumford and Noah Kahn need Bryce Desner, but they need to be receptive to the artistic impulses of somebody who isn't like, limited by this framework. And both need discernment and a willingness to be uncomfortable and grow together. Right. It's, it's the, like, we need each other.

And this is the sort of unity piece of like, you know, for me, like my impulse with pop music and the people are like, man, I shouldn't go to a movie, I should be out on the street event like that that just triggers me at such a deep level, right? But I actually need people like that to make me less misanthropic and actually get me to just not like clothe my apathy in theology.

Like theological reasons for not telling people that I, that this thing matters because I'm really good at doing that.

But actually, just actually having a little bit of a spring in my like, step to be like, hey, I'm gonna tell you now, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna wait anymore. And also like, those people need me who's like, let's go see a freaking movie. Let's just go.

And actually we might meet people along the way there and wonderful things for God's mission could happen.

But even if it doesn't, do we have faith that that simple like decision to rest and enjoy together might also mean something within the greater arc of God's redemptive purposes for the cosmos? And the answer is yes. So we like, we need each other. And for one, it's more perseverance and for others it's more receptivity.

But we all need to be willing to be uncomfortable. And I, I think that's beautiful Christian, like the self awareness of like, I don't like being around people and I'm not a street preacher.

And this is where like Bonhoeffer said in life together, those who can't be alone should figure out how to be at home in a crowd. And those like, you know, or sorry, should figure out how to be alone.

And those who are like, are always in a crowd need to figure out how to be alone. Like, we all got some re.

Reconfiguring to do because whether you call it accompaniment or discipleship, you cannot be a follower of Jesus if you're comfortable. It's just like. And North American Christianity in general, right, left, or center, is, like, so accustomed to comfort.

We freak the out when we're uncomfortable. And sometimes they're like, oh, no, you should listen to that discomfort. This person's bad. This situation is bad. Get out.

But there is a type of discomfort that is fruitful. It's the spirit working in you and other people.

And that is the type of growth that we all are called to, whether we're introverts, extroverts, or the weird middle ground where you like being around people, but you also don't sometimes. So I don't know. That's just been bubbling around and I needed to get it out.

Right. And that's why we do it.

You know, I will say real quick to Aaron, thank you for calling me out out on making assumptions, because my stupid brain sometimes says, oh, well, you formulated all these things together. Obviously, everyone thinks the same way you do. And that is something, over time, I've had to kill in myself.

So I appreciate you being willing to do that because you don't know me. We're meeting right here and now.

And also Mike as well, taking the whole Long Winded thing and, like, in grace, knowing how it was intended versus how it could have been taken.

I love how you just keep calling me Long winded.

I called all of us except T.J. longwinded.

It's true. No, I just appreciate the trust that we have. Yeah.

I got invited the other day by my current pastor, who I'm a big fan of. And she said, hey, I heard you on the Homebrewed series that Tripp and I did together, where we did Democracy Intention.

So it was all about sort of what happens to democracy in light of. Of where we find ourselves. And she said, look, we're doing the series this summer, one of the small groups about Christianity and democracy.

Would you be willing to, like, do a panel with me at the very end? The two of us will kind of have a conversation for the group about democracy and Christianity. And I was like, I'd be honored. That sounds fantastic.

I'd love it. And then she, like, pulls me aside and says, but, Aaron, now you're gonna have to bring it down a few levels.

So.

So for what it's worth, Michael, I'd rather be called Long Winded than Unintelligible. So I get called both.

I do that too. And I think this is part of it.

That's the risk for any of us in any setting, whether it's evangelistic with people who don't identify as Christian and even with our own, is just realizing you're all getting 100% me. But there are some settings where I'm like, they can only handle 60%. And even that's a stretch. I just shut off that part at certain points.

But I am glad because we're kind of dancing around it, like, the assumptions of, like, the just perception of Christianity in America today. And that's part of what makes this conversation challenging for us as Americans. Not you, Mike. But no, it is.

It is still, as far as I know, it is still a problem in Canada.

The way I describe it, it's like Coke Zero or Diet Coke in Canada. Like, we're the. We're the Diet Coke version or the Coke Zero version. And the jury is still out as which is worse, sugar or aspartame?

Yeah, it's like both are bad for you, but what are they doing to you? And which is worse.

Yeah, but for us, there are just so many assumptions about how a Christian votes and who a Christian hates and how Christian judges other people.

That's really hard for me, Josh, probably some of you, to align ourselves with and kind of be a little uncomfortable with the Christian label and how so many, you know, huge public figures with that label behave. And it's kind of dissuasive to us to invite others into the fold out of fear that that is their perception.

Me personally tend to have a lot of success because everyone I talk to ends up being some kind of little freak about it. And they're like, no, you don't want to talk about the Bible with me. And I was like, actually, I would love to.

And then I get to hear whatever they believe. It's always crazy. Shoot. Batten like a thousand for that. I don't know how. Yeah, but that's kind of where we struggle with our evangelism perspective.

Josh and I align on that. But do you all feel this kind of observation should change how we go about evangelism?

Like, should we show off what kind of Christian we are before having these conversations with people?

Do we need to wear, like, a big shirt that says universalist, or should we maybe just be extra specific and just, you know, pick and choose who we're inviting to shape our denominations?

You gotta know your audience, and you've gotta know how to present yourself. And you gotta know when you say the word Christian, that has baggage with it, and that's not your fault.

So Even though it's not your fault, you still have extra work to do, extra hurdles you have to jump over. And if you don't prepare to jump over those hurdles beforehand, you're going to be less successful. And success doesn't always guarantee evangelism.

Excuse me. Conversion. Success is planting a seed. Sometimes success is getting someone to think a different way. Success can also be conversion. You know what?

That's great. But if we. We're going for numbers, like, I can count on one hand the amount of people that I brought to faith.

And you know what?

That's less people than zero. Wait, sorry, Mathematics. Did I do that correctly? No, no, sorry. Switch it around. Whatever. Makes sense perfectly. The idea being, like, be with them.

Know who they are. Give them your attention. When they say, I don't like the church because the church is full of hypocrites, there's a story there.

When you say, I don't like the church because they hate X group, but there's a story there. Well, how is the church actually supposed to function? You need to know the answer to this. Like, you don't have to be the perfect apologist.

There's no such person to begin with.

But know enough going in to where you have less work for yourself, and you can actually get to the real questions that they're actually asking without asking them. So, yeah, know who you are, know what you're skilled at. Maybe bring someone else along with you who's good at things you're not good at.

That'd be great. And if you can't, that's what it is.

But also know they're gonna have a perception that you're gonna have to work around and actually not work around, but also work with them to actually get them to see the truth. And that's gonna take work and time and conviction.

Yeah.

So, I mean, I would. I'd resonate with that. The. The. Know your audience is the first thing that. Well, second thing that I teach all of my writing students.

First thing is trust your voice.

Voice.

You know, so if you. If you don't trust yourself, no one else will. Like, you've got to think you have something worth hearing.

But then the second thing is you've got to know to whom you're speaking. And so I think knowing your audience is really, really, really potent and powerful.

And for what it's worth, part of why I appreciate podcasts like this and so many in the kind of godpod universe, you know, with whom lots of us are affiliated, is, I think, influencer culture in general.

Has and, you know, jubilee events and stuff where all of thinking about deep, complicated topics should happen really fast and in language that is basically at a like seventh grade level. Rather than saying no, if you want to think about hard stuff, like get good so you can think about hard stuff.

And that might mean that you're hearing a lot of conversations. You can't track with all of them.

It.

And it's not always their responsibility to make sure you can. Seventh grader. This is a high school class or this is a college course.

So being able to recognize sometimes it's not the speaker's fault that you don't have the background to understand what's going on and that we should still encourage each other to be able to remain in those spaces and, you know, develop depth and skill sets that allow us to kind of ever get more nuanced in our appreciation of things that are very complicated.

Now, that said, the temptation, especially on the left, is a kind of smugness where we hide behind, you know, complicated words and our attempt to sound articulate rather than recognizing. Yeah, but if, if we talk a lot about, you know, the marginalized, but aren't willing to talk to anybody who can't read Heidegger in the Germans, we.

We are the people that we are critiquing.

Right.

So I, I appreciate Christian, your point. And I, I think it's exactly right.

I would just say something when it comes to TJ Your original question about, so what about the American church today or American Christianity today, doesn't that make evangelism hard? My answer would be unequivocally, yes, it makes it hard. And what it's done is caused me to think a lot about what do I mean by conversion.

And I no longer have. And here, Christian, you and I will definitely disagree. I have zero interest in converting a non Christian to Christianity.

I have enormous commitment to converting evangelical Christian nationalists to a Christianity that actually is concerned about the people that I think we're supposed to care about. And I am absolutely convinced that we should be invested in converting those who have allowed Christianity to become.

Back to Michael, your point about, you know, syncretism to become, you know, synonymous with militarism and American greatness and white supremacy and, you know, the absolute narrowing of the beloved community. I want to convert those people all day long, but I think the way to do it is probably not through the tools that they're using. Right.

I don't think the tools of militarism and dehumanization are, are very effective. And I think what they are effective at doing is creating a lot of resentment, a lot of fear, and a lot of anxiety.

And so my thought is, all right, well, what does it mean then, to model discursive charity to those who I think have abandoned a commitment to conversational engagement? And to be honest, I don't know. I'm trying the best I can to figure that out.

But I think it probably is going to look like saying, huh, I hear what you're saying. I know that you think you've got good reasons for this. Let's actually unpack those reasons.

Which means I'm probably going to stay in this conversation longer than I actually, actually think is worthwhile. Because I think you're worthwhile. Right. The, the, the view you hold, I find horrifying.

The reasons that you're giving, I find irrational, if not just absurd. And yet, to Christian's point, there's probably a story for why you think these reasons even count. So let's, let's go bowling and think about this.

Now, are there lines? Of course there's going to be lines. Ones I've just no longer got the energy or time to talk to white supremacists about why racism's bad.

You know what? Life's too short.

I don't have any interest in trying to convince the complementarian why gender equality is something we should take seriously in a democratic society based on things like equality. Right. But do I find worthwhile those humans as absolutely equally, morally dignified as, as, you know, myself, my family, or the people I love?

Yeah.

That moral equality doesn't get threatened by the views that I think are threatening to the identity that I want to hold. I want to be publicly Christian. That's harder when so many Christians are public in ways that make me want nothing to do with them.

And so, yeah, I find this very challenging in today's world.

World.

Yeah.

And I guess another way, or to kind of flip the question. Christian, if you knew you could have like a 100 conversion rate, but every one of those people converted to Catholicism, would you still do it?

I mean, I disagree with many things in the Catholic Church, but if they're saved, it's game over. Like, we can argue about doctrine all day long.

If they're with him, who cares where they end up as long as they're doing what they're supposed to be doing? If God wanted them in that church, they don't have to be in my church. They're where he wants them.

Right.

One of the things that I'm just thinking about while I Listen to you talk.

Aaron, I listened to parts of that series that you were talking about, and I may not get the story exactly right, but I remember you telling that story about you camping, and there was a guy near you who had, like, a MAGA flag.

Trump supporter.

And I can't remember what it was that brought you together, but he was kind to you. So there was initial, like, roll.

He was kind.

Yeah. Like, roll up. Get the flag out. You know, you're like, oh, man, I gotta camp next to this dude. Right?

I was ready to deal with this guy. And, yeah, he. We were camping. He throws out this huge MAGA flag, you know, may have been Trump. Whatever. You know, some.

Some.

Yeah, I forget the actual flag. It's been. Been a while. But, you know, put this. Not. Not like one of those just like. Like, oh, you know, it just happened to be.

This was like strung with paracord across trees.

It was a come. It was like a. It was a come and dis prove me wrong type thing. Like, it was. It was a. Yeah.

Which is on a camping trip.

But. But I mean, like, this is the world.

To Michael's point, he then. And like, I was just already. But then he comes over later and is kind and nice. And what it was, Michael, is we start talking about Siberian husky.

Huskies.

Yeah.

And there you go. You know, it's like, yeah, they're most amazing dogs. Right?

And he leaves with this kind of like, hey, if you need anything at all, man, I'm right next door. Come over. It's yours. And it ticked me off. Like, I think I said in that conversation with Tripp.

Like, I was angry because I needed him to be the person who allowed my narrative to hold fast, and he wrecked my narrative. The same thing happened. I don't remember if I told this story or not there, but.

But the introduction to one of my books, it's about determinant religion and deconstruction. Not deconstruction in the YouTube sense, but in the OG way, the philosophical notion.

And I was sitting at a table at an Atlanta bread company, and I had, you know, Derrida and Heidegger and, you know, Lebanon, whatever, all, like, smeared out across a table. Probably annoying the owners of the establishment because I was clearly not ordering enough food to justify taking their real estate.

But this guy comes over and he says, excuse me, I don't mean to bother you, but what are you working on? And I said, oh, I'm a philosopher. I'm working on a book.

And of course, like, unprompted, he Sits down and starts talking, you know, and turns out he is a grad student, seminary student at Bob Jones Seminary. And, you know, Christian, however conservative you are, like my hunches, you are straight on your way to hell. Liberal for the Bob Jones crowd.

Compared to them.

They're like this very much, this crowd. They are. They're. They're intense. And so I, again, once I heard this was just. Man, I don't have the energy for this conversation.

I got to get this book done. I'm trying, you know, and it turns out it was lovely. Absolutely fantastic. Like, two hours talking theology together.

And he got up and I remember him saying something like.

Like, man, you know, you've not convinced me that postmodernism is a good idea, but you've absolutely given me an awful lot to think about, and I appreciate that. And we shook hands, he left. And the introduction to that book became.

A funny thing happened while writing the introduction to this book about the importance of determinate religion and deconstruction. This encounter is the whole point of deconstruction. It's the humility with which we relate to what we think is stable.

It's the erosion of binaries that we think have no middle. It's the interrogation of the certainties that actually cause us to miss the openness to truth. Right?

And yet we both met each other in determinate locations. It wasn't in order to show that openness and humility. We just, you know, mealy mouth, whatever. Everything's the same your way, your way. It was. No.

I was a Pentecostal postmodern philosopher of religion, and he was a fundamentalist Baptist coming from a Bob Jones background. We stood in determinate locations, but met internal to the deconstructive openness to each other. The face of the other confronted in both directions.

And that's the thing that I find traditional evangelism to shut down today. But maybe the idea or the promise of evangelism to open onto. And that's why I'm opposed to what evangelism tends to mean.

I am all for what I think evangelism is meant to offer.

Right? Yeah. Rest in peace. Atlanta Bread Company. The one near us closed.

Yeah, right. Right across the street.

Can I just work, man?

Yeah.

Say it's an eggs up room.

I find it interesting that all of that happened at a table in a place that makes and provides people with bread. Because this is my, like, one of my only moves, even when I teach political theology. Feed your enemy, Receive a meal from your enemy. Love your enemy.

Listen to Listen, not respond. Feed them again, right? Vengeance is mine, says the Lord.

And in loving them and feeding them and giving the thirsty person like, water to drink, you heat burning coals on their head and not in like, oh, one day you're gonna really get yours. But there's something powerful that happens in the act of something as simple as eating together or bonding over Siberian huskies.

Like, in this story, neither you nor the MAGA guy are Jesus. The Siberian husky is. The Siberian husky is the mediator, right? It's the, it's the buffer that, that, that. That reminds us that we're all human.

And some of us believe in stupid things and do stupid things, ourselves included, but we're still invited to the table.

The only precondition is that you just admit that you do and say stupid things sometimes and sit at the table and Jesus will feed us bread and together we will discover our commonalities, our differences, and we'll figure out how to get really messy world together, not apart. That's like, that's the mission of God.

But that's also the miraculous mission of God, which is precisely the territory of the early church of like, here's a great idea for my draft picks a zealot and a tax collector who will become roommates in mission. You're like, what the hell? One guy wants to literally murder the other guy.

Like, not metaphorically, but like, you guys are going to, to like, pick who's on top or bottom bunk, like, what? But this is the miraculous way in which something simple is inviting an enemy into your home.

But like, this is why it's so sad that it's not even like, neighbors who don't really know each other not eating together. But this stuff literally breaks families apart.

And I do think that there is a sharp edge to it where Jesus is like, hey, don't think that I came here for all of us to, like, roast marshmallows around the fire and sing Kumbaya.

Like, there is a divisiveness that the word creates, but it's one of a particular kind where it's like, look, you can sit at the table, but if you're being an or threatening people, you have to leave, right? And that's, that's the red line.

But everything else, you're like, as long as you're open to the conversation, as long as you want to sit down and eat bread, as long as you're willing to be surprised and change your mind and journey with people who aren't like you. Come have a seat, right? It's all.

And, and I actually think that the fruit of that is political transformation, social transformation, cultural transformation, religious transformation. But like, if we try to get to the end, that end and we forget about the means, then we're not going to get to that end.

We can't, we can't pro program matize that. It just is. Don't try to, don't try and force it to produce that fruit. It will if you just are faithful to it.

It. Well said.

All right, so we're gonna, we're gonna start wrapping it up.

And one thing that we always, always like to do before we start wrapping it up is to ask our guests to provide one practical action for our listeners to do that could engender church unity. So I might make you all do it, but I'm going to start with Christian.

What is one practical action that our listeners can do today to engender church unity?

If you're serious about evangelism and missionary work, don't see people as numbers. See them as the people that God made them.

People can tell after a certain point of view, point of time with them, whether you're seriously caring about them or you're just like, they're the next one on my list. And that's a terrible way to end things, actually be with them.

Right, right.

Anyone else feel strongly about that answer? I think it's pretty good.

I think that's a great answer. I would just add to it. In my Pentecostal churches, of course, we cosign. Right. And so it's the amen to the claim that's been said.

Here's my version of co signing your point. Christian is, I think, far too many. And here I'm going to stereotype. But I think it's with some reason behind it.

I think far too many people who are right now attending very large churches in America, especially in non denominational spaces in particular, think that the real mission field is people at churches that aren't theirs. And I think that's freaking disastrous for church unity.

But it's also unbelievably idolatrous when it comes to the idea of the mystery and blessed unknowing that should also be part of a life lived in light of a God who is bigger than you.

So anytime you stick on your T shirt new spring that says I heart my shirt and you wear this as not a statement about the divine that overflows human conception, but about your church having figured that divine out, like I, I'm sorry, I think you're harming the Christian community. Not helping it.

Yeah.

And so more and more and more I see what evangelism tends to look like.

Like in the spaces that I find myself in, it's Christians from really big churches trying to convince their friends at the small church down the road that they don't go to the right one. And this also is connected though back to the idea of our doctrine.

I think this does connect to a very narrow conception of certainty about doctrine rather than humility about a God who invites us beyond such narrowness. So, yeah, that's my version of saying yes to amen to Christian.

Yeah. So you're saying like when you actually attain membership at a church, it should include a non compete clause,.

Not an NDA. Non compete.

Yeah.

Non compete.

Yeah. It's just bonkers to me. I mean, and the amount of. I've never been asked to leave a small church, let me put it that way.

Interesting.

And every church I've been asked to leave was, if not a legitimate mega church, they were certainly on their way that direction. I've never been asked to leave a church that was associated with a discrete denomination.

I've only been asked to leave non denominational churches because notice this, this idea of themselves needing to wall in what they are unbelievably terrified people will see as fragile and weak. Right. They need to show this. Pete Hegseth about, look, I'm so strong. We don't put up with any of that weakness garbage. We've got this figured out.

God is our God and we've got it understood.

And unfortunately that I think plays out far too often internal to then the way that they are training, especially their youth to then actualize evangelism. When it comes to college campuses, when it comes to going to the mission field of the inner city or whatever it is it ends up being.

We're the ones who've got God on our side. And I always go back to the philosopher Paul Woodruff, who in his book on reverence, he calls it the virtue most needed in today's society.

He says anytime you claim God is on your side, you have called down a tremendous sense of your own supremacy.

And he says reverence as a virtue demands that you never claim God is on your side, but you seek to do your best to be aligned with what virtue would expect of anyone. And it seems to me that that's also really, really good advice. So there's my, there's my encouragement.

Everyone should go read Reverence by Paul Woodruff. It's accessible, it's engaging, it's fantastic. I Teach it in my intro to philosophy classes. There's my practical step.

All right, so Mike Morelli, if we. Everyone listening does both of these things, read Paul Woodruff. And we perform our evangelistic aftercare like Christian suggested.

What changes in the world and the church at large.

Yeah.

We'll start seeing people as people and not as numbers or as, you know, the latest marvel superhero who only cries a little bit or shows a little bit of fragility on. On the way to overcoming that and solving problems by dominating the villain. Right.

Because everybody like that, that church you described, you know, the non denom. Build the bald bunker mentality where build the walls around our fragility and uncertainty.

You're like, I just, you know, it's almost as if the Bible didn't tell us that we're made out of. Of soil with the breath of God and we come from dirt and we go to dirt. It's beautiful dirt, it's enlivened dirt, but it's still dirt.

Like, and, and so, yeah, I think that's. That's huge. And, and I would just add, like, you know, along the way, eat with people and get to the point where you can show that fragility.

And as my one colleague and friend Jeff says, you know, the metaphor of baking with your kids is good one here for mission, for ministry. Right. Parents don't bake with their kids because it's more effective. If anything, it's more ineffective.

Right.

Like, would I want to cook my meal or cook some. Bake something and my kids, like, can I help? I'm like, no, I like, you will mess this up. Right. Like.

But when I say yes, it's not for, like the final probably meal. It's because I want to bond with my child and do something together.

Together.

Right.

And my colleague Jeff uses this as a metaphor for ministry and mission and, and, and in case it's not obvious, we are the children in God is the parent thinking, right. We're actually messing it up most constantly. What's that?

Well, and it's funny though, right, Michael? Yeah. The, the we we end up with. These are the churches singing, you know, the newsboys. God's not dead. He's surely alive, roaring like a lion. Right.

And yet they've created institutions that basically are tribute to a, like, teenage version. Nietzsche.

Yeah.

I mean, it, it's. It's like the, the uber minch as conquering your foe, which is not Nietzsche. It's actually the worst reading of his corpus that one could offer.

It's like they took the guy who says, God, God is dead, which I have done a lot of work suggesting. That's the most important phrase for Christians to take seriously today.

But the people then screaming God's not dead are the ones who are actually most enacting the teenage version of the death of God, as we're the only ones who get to decide what right is. Everybody else is wrong. Get out of my way, you people who are holding me back. Right?

Yeah.

And that irony is it. It would be funny if it were not so tragic and it were not harming so many millions of people.

I mean, the sheer number of people who have died because of the destruction of USAID should be enough to cause us all to repentance at the altar of how have we become blinded by a disregard for the suffering of the world's, you know, people, populace.

Right.

But instead, we're all cool as long as, you know, we get together on Sundays and like the people who sit next to us because they're not scary. So I. I think we've got a long way to go. But I appreciate what all of you have been offering as ways forward, because I think that it.

This conversation models what I think is possible. And tragically, you know, it's between at this point, four, though it was five, you know, white dudes.

But I do think that it's important, especially for even a bunch of white.

Guys to think about Italians are some.

Of the least white. Do it different.

Right? D.J. Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, yeah. Very good stuff.

I hear what you're saying, Aaron, though, on that point, and if anything, let us let this just be a witness to the world that it's possible for a bunch of pretty educated white male Christians to talk in these ways, that the miraculous is possible.

That's right.

Right.

Miracles happen.

So before we get into the outro, we do like to do our God moment where we'll ask everyone to share a moment they saw God recently in their life, whether it be a blessing, moment of challenge on a worship, whatever it may be. I always make Josh go first. So moment of silence for Josh and mine is going to be about him. I'll go first. Josh.

I don't know how public he wants to be about it, but we all know he's going through some familial troubles right now, a great tragedy. So my heart goes out to him and I hope that everyone hearing this is able to forgive him for not being here.

Mostly that, but also that knows that God is with him and will be forever, hopefully. So, you know, to each their own on that stance. But Christian, do you have a God moment for us?

As always, I'm going to cheat and give two at the very least. My first one is this hasn't been released yet. As far as podcast form, you can go on the Systematic Ecology YouTube page for Friday night Frights.

Joe and I just did an episode on psychokinesis and other things like that, and it wasn't a regularly scheduled one. He kind of came to me about it, and I could tell without actually hearing his voice. And we were just texting. This is something personal to him.

And so he led it. It was a great time. We disagreed on a lot of things because that's who we are. But at the end of the.

Yeah, near the end of the session, he starts getting a little more into his past and, like, why he cares so much about this, the personal experiences that he's had. And I got to be a part of that and be with him. And when he's opening up to me and people he's never going to meet.

And I was just happy to be there with him in the midst of that because that means he feels safe with me. And that is something I strive to be around people. So that was one, then two.

Later this week, I'm heading up to Chicago to help my brother and niece move. So that means I get to see my niece. She's almost turning three very soon. And that girl is the light of my world. So, Malin, I'll be there in a.

Little bit, which is crazy. I remember when she was born, right? It was nuts. I'm getting old. Not as old as you ever, because that's how that works. But I'm getting there.

So, Aaron, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Yeah, because Christian got two. I'll give you two real quick as well. First, I screwed up my knee pretty badly about a month ago at a. I was in the pack hit for an MXPX show.

And so my knee has not worked right ever since.

And so I've not been able to be on the mountain bike, which those of you who do know me know that is sort of the source of my emotional and mental and spiritual health, not only my physical health. So today was the first day that I rode a bike without being in pain for five weeks. And it wasn't great. Great, but it wasn't awful.

And I will take that. And so thank God for that. And the second one is my son.

He's fine, but he ended up in the ER this weekend for some stuff that was scary for a moment, and turns out everything is fine and it's being able to be handled.

And other than our absolute, broken, unjust, miserable healthcare system that is inhuman, and the amount of money that now I have to pay to have found out that my son is okay, I am thrilled that he's okay. And obviously tests could have gone the other direction, and so, yeah, I'm pretty stoked about that as well. So.

All right, Mike.

Yeah. Okay, I'll get to. I've had some really good conversations today. This one, and one with a student and one with my pal. And so that's just.

Just really God moment esque. But this one takes the cake.

I walk my kids to school every day and we get there and my son, my youngest son, 6 years old, just drops his new Ninja Turtles backpack, which he's so, so pumped about, licks both hands, rubs them together and says, dad, watch me on the monkey bars. And runs to the monkey bars and just goes and does his thing.

And then he's like, rubbing his hands on the poles to like, make sure that they're, like, sticky for the monkey bars. And I just was like, oh, to be six again.

Living your best life, unaware of how unsanitary that is because all you are concerned about is like, those monkey bars are not going to climb themselves. Let's get those hands all nice and saucy. I was just. Yeah. So that was a God moment for me.

Yeah.

I think it's insane, by the way, if you. If none of you have tried recently or most. Because most people don't how hard monkey bars are as an adult.

Oh, yeah. I, like, I know this is a common joke, but, like, I sleep wrong and I'm like, Aaron, it's not even like I went to a show and was in the pit.

It's like I slept wrong and now I can't do any. Any of the things.

Yeah, my whole body hurts.

Yes. The doctor told me this week. He's like, you're. You're now at the age where more and more and more injuries. When they ask now, how did this happen?

Tell me what occurred. You'll be like, I don't know. So, yeah, I'm at the, I don't know, injury stage.

Don't sneeze, you might fall apart.

Yeah. But seriously, that's great. Like, I'm not. I'm not a big guy, but.

You got big legs, But.

But, you know, I'm not a small guy. I'm not a tall guy, but I'm kind of wide. So like, just get up there and start, man. It's crazy. Kids are insane.

So.

So if you liked this episode, great. If you didn't, great. Let us know.

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Please consider sharing it with a friend. Share with your enemies. Share with a cousin, especially your cousin. Somebody share with Josh's cousins. He won't be here to do it this time.

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Here, here to educate, unite the modern church and super helpful. There are cheaper ways to support us, like comment, subscribe, but money's cool. That's a personal opinion. Not required in the slightest, as always.

My favorite is the very minimalist TJ quote on the back shirt. Just got the simple whole church logo on the front and on one of the sleeves. I like it a lot.

Check out all of the other shows in the Onazow podcast network network on the website in the show notes for more thoughtful Christian podcasts. Christian, why don't you name some of those for us?

Yeah, got Bible after hours. We got Kung Fu Pizza party. My seminary life. About billion shows that I do. All you need to look and you'll see them.

A lot of good work being done by people.

A lot of good work. The homily page and pixel. Tons of stuff over there to check out. Tons of really fun, engaging things to listen to. But we do hope you enjoyed it.

Coming up, we'll be having a couple of authors on to discuss their books. We've got some schedule issues. You know, we're figuring things out still, but author is confirmed, just kind of the order of which is his heart.

We're going to have a week or two off, prepare for an upcoming series on the behind the scenes of the church. Whether it's how sermons are prepared, how liturgy gets discussed, decided, how seminary functions. Christian, maybe. Who knows how pews are made.

We're gonna get. We're gonna get dirty. We're gonna. We're gonna do how it's made for churches. Basically, we just aren't as charismatic as Mike Rowe.

We're gonna try dirty chops. Well, same thing, but at the end of season one, Francis Chan will of course be on the show.

Maybe one day. One day.

Who knows?

Sam.