The final episode of "Finding the Good..." dives deep into the epic showdown between Assassins and Templars from the Assassin's Creed franchise, where the stakes are all about freedom versus control. Christian Ashley, TJ Blackwell, and John Erdely break down the core conflict of the series, discussing how the Assassins champion individual liberty while the Templars advocate for order and authority. With a blend of humor and insightful banter, they explore the philosophical implications of each faction's ideals, questioning the morality of their methods and the impact on society. As they reminisce about their gaming experiences and favorite characters, the trio manages to weave in clever observations about the nature of power and belief, all while keeping it light and engaging. Tune in for a thought-provoking and entertaining wrap-up to this flagship series, where video game lore meets real-world dilemmas in a way that’s anything but boring.
Diving into the epic showdown between the Assassins and the Templars, the trio of hosts kick things off by exploring their own personal journeys with the Assassin's Creed franchise. Christian reminisces about his early days with the series, while John laments his one-time experience with the original game, and TJ shares how he finally succumbed to the allure of MMORPGs with Final Fantasy 14. This laid-back banter sets the stage for a deeper conversation about the philosophical undertones of the franchise, particularly the central conflict of freedom versus control. The hosts explore how both factions present compelling arguments for their respective ideologies, using clever anecdotes and cheeky humor to keep things lighthearted yet insightful. As they dissect the motivations behind the Assassins' quest for freedom and the Templars' desire for order, they touch upon the nuances of morality and the blurry lines between right and wrong, ultimately inviting listeners to reflect on their own beliefs about governance and individual autonomy. With witty exchanges and relatable references, the episode serves as both a nostalgic trip down memory lane and a thought-provoking discussion about the implications of the Assassin's Creed narrative.
With a chill vibe and plenty of banter, the episode dives headfirst into the iconic struggle between the Assassins and the Templars from Assassin's Creed. The hosts, Christian, John, and TJ, ease into the discussion by sharing their personal histories with the game, sparking nostalgia that resonates with fans. They explore the thematic undertones of the franchise, particularly the philosophical conflict of freedom versus control, and how these ideals manifest in the characters and storylines of the games. As they dissect the motivations of both factions, each host brings their unique perspective, with TJ humorously arguing for the Templars while Christian passionately defends the Assassins. Their witty exchanges provide a light-hearted backdrop as they engage in a thoughtful dialogue about morality, ethics, and the nature of power. The discussion culminates in an exploration of the implications of these themes in the real world, encouraging listeners to reflect on their own views regarding authority and resistance. This episode is a clever blend of humor and philosophy, making it a must-listen for gamers and thinkers alike.
Takeaways:
The podcast dives deep into the age-old conflict between Assassins and Templars, exploring how their ideologies reflect broader themes of freedom versus control.
Christian, TJ, and John share personal anecdotes about their first experiences with the Assassin's Creed franchise, highlighting its impact on their gaming journeys.
In discussing the moral implications of assassination, the hosts present a nuanced debate about the ethics of killing for a perceived greater good.
The episode emphasizes the importance of historical context in the Assassin's Creed games, showcasing how they intertwine real events with fictional narratives.
Listeners are encouraged to reflect on the duality of the Assassins and Templars, recognizing that neither side is wholly good or evil, which mirrors real-life complexities in human nature.
The trio wraps up the series by humorously reflecting on their favorite characters and moments from the franchise, leaving fans eager for future discussions.
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Our show focuses around our favorite fandoms that we discuss from a Christian perspective. We do not try to put Jesus into all our favorite stories, but rather we try to ask the questions the IPs are asking, then addressing those questions from our perspective. We are not all ordained, but we are the Priests to the Geeks, in the sense that we try to serve as mediators between the cultures around our favorite fandoms and our faith communities.
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If everything is permitted, then what do we fight against? This is systematic ecology. We are the preach to the geeks. As we're continuing on through our Finding the Good series.
Today we're going to be doing Assassins versus Templars and Assassin's Creed. And we have three people here, of course. Myself, your host, Christian Ashley, joined by my favorite trauma abuse victim, John Eardley.
How's it going, John?
John Erdely:
It's going great, Christian. I'm glad to be here. Hopefully I don't have too many word salads and make too big of a fool myself today.
Christian Ashley:
And that's going to be really hard to do because, like the last time that I was on a Finding a Good episode, TJ played the role of the person who's like, yeah, okay. John will also be playing that role today, but he's not alone. Someone who's played a little more, though, is of course your favorite host.
The host of the most, the one who put this all to shame, TJ Blackwell. How's it going, tj?
TJ Blackwell:
Good.
Christian Ashley:
Oh, of course. Monosyllabic as ever. Just the way we prefer it.
John Erdely:
One word response.
Christian Ashley:
Yeah. So, gentlemen, what have you been geeking out on recently?
John Erdely:
Well, I just finished the live action series on hbo Max, the His Dark Materials, which is based on the Golden Compass by Philip Pullman, which is one of my childhood favorites. And I just finished the. The. The series on HBO Max. I have to say, they did the books justice.
I mean, you know, whatever you think of the books, however you land on the spectrum, they did the series very well. I was very happy with it. I give that a solid, like 9 out of 10. That was fabulous. I mean, okay. I just enjoyed every. Every minute of it.
I liked seeing a lot of the scenes in the book that I had from my memory because I haven't read the books, you know, in a decade or so. But I had some of the scenes still in my head. So when I was watching the series and I actually was able to be like, that's it.
That's the scene I was thinking of just a little bit ago. And I was happy to see it put on the screen faithfully.
Christian Ashley:
I'm glad that turned out well. It's one of those. I remember it exists and then I don't. So eventually I'm going to watch it.
And now, definitely based on your recommendation, I was like, okay, yeah, I definitely have to look at it. Tj, how about you?
TJ Blackwell:
I recently finally caved. I started getting into. Final Fantasy 14. It's my first real crack at an MMO.
Christian Ashley:
Quit yada. My poor friend.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah, well, you know, like, I played Wizard 101. Of course. I played Star wars the Old Republic a little. I just could never really get into it, but I'm like, level 48.
Been playing since the day before Thanksgiving. At the time, that was what, a week ago? Maybe a week and a half.
John Erdely:
Okay.
TJ Blackwell:
Time is a mystery to me. But, yeah, It's Final Fantasy 14.
Christian Ashley:
Starting an MMO.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah, it's Final Fantasy 14. It's great, actually. Having a lot of fun. Mostly because I can be a dragoon like my goat K from Final Fantasy 4. So I'm having fun. Yeah.
John Erdely:
Yeah.
Christian Ashley:
It's not my thing, but I'm really glad you can get into it. I just have bad memories of losing, like, two friends for, like, six months back in the day because that's pretty much all they did.
It's like, oh, you still exist.
TJ Blackwell:
Oh, yeah. That's definitely, definitely part I was like, wow.
John Erdely:
And trying to remember the other big one. Was it League of Heroes or League of Legends?
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah, that's a whole different beast. I'm not touching that ever.
Christian Ashley:
Yeah. Different type of game. Way more toxic myself. I just finished You Like It Darker, which is one of the newest Stephen King ghost story collections.
It's not as best, it's not as worse, but for the most part, I enjoyed it. Could probably give it a 7 out of 10. It was enjoyable.
So with that in mind, gentlemen, we are going to be discussing Assassin's Creed and the Assassins versus Templar conflict that happens in here. If you follow these episodes, you kind of know how this is going to go. We're going to pick a side, going to explain what each side does.
We're going to have to defend the other side. So Assassins vs Templars is the main focus here. But before we get that way, guys, when did you get into the games? How did you do that?
John Erdely:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it came out in, what, 07? Practically right after the Xbox 360 came out. So I played it first when it came out on the Xbox 360.
So it brings back a lot of nostalgia for me to talk about the Assassin's Creed games. I mean, bear in mind, I've only played number one, so forgive me that I haven't dove deep into the series.
I own a copy of Black Flag and I am going to play that, but I haven't got to it yet.
croll, scroll the wheel down.:
I was 16 when it came out.
Christian Ashley:
Okay.
John Erdely:
So back in the day.
TJ Blackwell:
Back in the day, you know, I wasn't. I didn't plan on the lease because I was 8. But everybody didn't have.
Christian Ashley:
Games for TJ at 8.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah. But I think I was in middle school. I was spending a lot of times at other friends houses who did have like, you know, systems and games.
I really didn't as much, but, you know, they had games that were fun that they had already played that I hadn't. You know, I'd borrow them. And assassin's creed, brotherhood, AC2 brotherhood was, was one of those. So that was my first one.
And that was in like:
I can't remember what the other revelations 3, 4, you know, fell off when it got a little action RPG like most people. But that, that, that sweet spot of, you know, Brotherhood to four was, was amazing.
Christian Ashley:
Okay. Yeah. And I do want to put a little copy out here real quick before we go any further. There are, it's not hundreds games.
There's dozens of games in the timeline here. We're not going to be covering every single one. We're not going to mention every single one.
We're going to do our best to include as many as possible here. But if we don't feature your special favorite game, it's not because we hate it. It's because we didn't think it relevant.
We didn't think about it in a moment. So that another way as I hate it. Okay. It is because TJ hates it. And if TJ hates it, he must be right.
John Erdely:
Yeah. So feel free to take it personal if we don't mention the game.
Christian Ashley:
Yeah, that is exactly the purpose of why I said what I said. So anyways, I got into them fairly late. I knew they existed.
Like, I remember seeing like trailers for the original game and definitely saw more over the years. I definitely remember. Was it which one's French Revolution? I can't remember off the top of my head.
John Erdely:
Unity.
Christian Ashley:
Yeah, I think I remember, definitely remember seeing a trailer for that one at some point in time. But it was just I never got into him. And the major reason for that was poorness.
And growing up on a On a high school teacher salary, it was pretty much if he decided to buy a game or if you managed to convince him, my dad would buy it or maybe you got lucky and relative for Christmas we would buy you a game.
That's kind of where I stood because you know, once again, high school teacher salary and you know, teachers don't get paid what they should, but that's a side issue. So it was after college, after several years after college, I remember just on a whim, honest.
There was a sale on for and I picked up Odyssey and I'm fairly certain that was my first one in the sands of time, you know, just aging really bad. But I'm fairly certain I started there.
And yeah, that is more on the more action RPG side of things compared to the other games where they're more stealth based, more way more ways to fail. It's not as big for a more general audience as they later decided to do with it. And I appreciate both sides for what they do.
I'm more of an RPG guy anyway, so it was a good thing I started there. But you know what, there's plenty of great things in the earlier games too that are a lot of fun to play.
And then from there I went to Origins and then pretty much would go back a game because I was always fearful of oh no, if I don't like the quality of life stuff that is in this game and it's not in that game. Well, I hate the rest of it and eventually just got all the way to. To the beginning because I mean might as well at this point in time.
So got guys, can we explain to the audience if you've never experienced an Assassin's Creed game, what the main conflict is between our heroes, allegedly the Assassins who we typically play as, and then the Templars who are most of the time their villains outside of the games that obviously go beyond in the past when the Templars didn't exist.
TJ Blackwell:
So the simplest way to put it is I can think of is imagine the Illuminati is real and effective in real life and there is another group of people who just pretty much tries to kill them. That's like a very, very basic level. That's what this conflict is. Yeah.
John Erdely:
Okay, John, I was going to add that that's a really great simple explanation.
I think there's a little bit more nuance because they introduce like relics in like in the first game, there's relics and different type of powers that they give to the users. And it in the battle between the Assassins and the Templars is kind of control of the relics and the secret mysteries of the, of the age.
And it kind of goes back and forth between modern day and his historical for the same reasons. From the ancestors of the original Assassins in the Templars to the modern day descendants of the Assassins and Templars. And the conflict continues.
Christian Ashley:
So essentially we have, in these two various groups, you have the Assassins who are more freedom based and people need to make their own decisions. And you have the Templars who are like, no. If we can't trust human beings to do, to, to do the jobs that we want them to do.
So we need to have someone in control of them who can tell them, hey, like this is the right way to do things and we need to be the ones in control. Because the fewer people in control of stuff like this mean that we can trust them and get stuff like that done.
Then the Assassins are like, no, you're just enforcing, you know, kind of fascistic kind of ideals on people. And there are points on each side and we'll get to that in a moment.
And along the way we find that the Templars weren't the only other people who have had this point of view across history. We'll get to that in a second. But in the present, they have started a company called Abstergo, which has created a device known as the Animus.
And its goal is you can, through genetic memory of your timeline, it's going to be of your descent. Assuming ancestors, you can look at what they did, what they experienced. And from the first game on, that's kind of the thing.
And then we learn that other people are more a little tied in because of their genetics. And they can have more people they would have access to actually, you know, seeing their memories for.
And what Abstergo is doing this for is to unlock those memories of where certain relics, these pieces of Eden were cast away or put aside by people lost to history so that they can then take them and then enforce their rule over the world. And the Assassins, they've almost wiped them out.
At the present time when these games first came out and there's only like a little select few left, your main character eventually joins them and fights against Abstergo and you gain some other allies along the way. You know, his story is told, then he's gone.
Then you get what's the other Desmond Miles and Leila Hussein, I think is our new viewpoint character after that. And seeing her go through everything. Yeah, I think all the Desmond, that's the best. Yeah.
Anyways, so yeah, you see one Side order, other side, more anarchic freedom. That's how we're going to be going about this. So, gentlemen, it is actually, no, before that. There are other groups that exist beforehand.
We have assassin like entities. From the time of ancient Greece, started by Alexios, but also we have Bayek and his wife Aya. Yeah, I think Aya is his wife's name.
Who start their own kind of assassins group around the time of Julius caesar in about 44 BC. I'm pretty sure I'd have to look that up again. But they've been confronting a group known as the Order of the Ancients, Alexios and Greece.
Well, Cassandra is canonically the one, but you actually look at the numbers of who played who. People chose Alexios. They fought against the cult of the cosmos, which wanted to control the Grecian world.
The Mediterranean lord of the Ancients was originally created by a pharaoh to find pieces of Eden and utilize technology for their own. So this is not a new thing in the world. Obviously with retcons and new games, they make more stuff.
And I should also say real quick, I'm two games behind. I have not played Mirage and I have not played Shadows yet because once again, money.
So when they decided to go on sale for really, really cheap, I think I'll get them, but for right now.
TJ Blackwell:
No. Yeah, I thought it was on game.
Christian Ashley:
Moving on from there. How is it?
TJ Blackwell:
Well, with Game Pass, you can now you can get like the Ubisoft play or whatever they call it, and you play all. So if you're quick about it, you can pay for Game Pass for a month and you know, play both for 30 bucks. Fair enough.
Christian Ashley:
All right, so we have our two sides here. Which one are you gonna guys gonna be picking, Assassins or Templars? Yeah, I will.
TJ Blackwell:
What are you picking, Christian?
Christian Ashley:
I'm picking the Templars.
TJ Blackwell:
Okay. I thought so. Yeah, I'm gonna go with Assassins.
Christian Ashley:
Freak. John, you're a tiebreaker.
John Erdely:
Oh, good gracious. Based on my experience, only in the first game, considering the main character is basically betrayed and used by his own order to wipe out all the.
All the opposition. Like, I mean, I hate, I hate that. I like the assassin as the character, but I wish he was a Templar at the time.
So I would have to pick Templar for the. For the first game because the big whammy at the end just kind of ruins it for me.
TJ Blackwell:
Okay, such a.
Christian Ashley:
My real answer. Yeah, my real answer is both sides suck. And I'd make my own third party. I'd make my AU guy. I'd make My three ship alliance.
Of course, we're not Gundam anymore. We're a different series. So I have to pick between these two. And I'm picking Templars. So tj, why did you pick the Assassins? Freedom.
TJ Blackwell:
Freedom.
Christian Ashley:
Freedom. That's. That's it.
TJ Blackwell:
That's what Luffy would want me to do. You know what?
Christian Ashley:
I think that's extremely fair.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah.
Christian Ashley:
I hate it. Doesn't really require. That much more explanation.
TJ Blackwell:
Okay.
Christian Ashley:
Anything else you want to add? A lot. Yeah.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah.
Christian Ashley:
Does that help?
TJ Blackwell:
Also, shout out to One Piece for. It's not happening yet. But season one, as it were, is finally going to be over for One Piece. Because next year it's going to be seasonal. Yep.
So season one, you know,:
John Erdely:
Oh, are you. Are you watching it or are you talking about the remake thing?
Christian Ashley:
Well, both.
They're not doing the what they've been doing, you know, side tangent on the conversation here of where they would just keep releasing episodes back in the day. That's just what you did. Now they've said, nope, we're catching up too quickly to the manga. It's like we're tired of doing this.
Let's just release seasonally, like you know, 25, 26 episodes during the different cores. And they're also going to be doing the remake, as it were, starting from the very beginning. So get back on track. John, why did you pick the Templars?
Why did you join the winning team?
John Erdely:
Well, as I do love the Assassins for like he said, the Freedom. But the. The Templars again is like an idealistic kind of a group where they actually have kind of like a.
TJ Blackwell:
Like a.
John Erdely:
Like a holy based type of organization that of course, you know, it doesn't function the way it should, but if it did, it would be. It'd be kind of nice. But again, the betrayal at the end by the. The Assassins leader is what really did me in. And I just really hate the.
The leader of the Assassin. So despite him, I picked the Templars.
Christian Ashley:
John. Carrying a grudge for like 20 years. I love it. Well, almost 20 years. Yeah, perfect. I'm thinking the Templars because. Let me.
Let me preface this to an extent. I agree with their philosophy. When I am up against a group that has the lovely catchphrase of everything is permitted, what's the rest of it?
Everything is permitted. Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.
So as someone who believes that there are things who are objectively true and not everything should be permitted, that goes against my entire ethos. And on what you get on the assassin side of things, you tend to get more humanistic leanings. And I'm about as far from a humanist as you can get.
Before you start getting a little crazy. I don't believe that man is inherently good. I believe the exact opposite.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah.
Christian Ashley:
So on the Templars, I see the reasoning behind what they do.
The idea of humans can't be trusted with this because you see what we do, when given power and responsibility, time and time again, we fail not only ourselves, but the people around us. So why don't we get people who are on the same page and can work together to try and work for the benefit of everyone?
Now, as the game show, this isn't always the case.
There's always going to be someone who tries and takes advantage of the situation, but there are other people who are legitimately trying to do this for the betterment of others. But that's one of the good things about the series, is that not all Templars are bad, not all Assassins are good.
There is some little gray in between there you can pick. So now, since we've decided who we want to be, why don't we go ahead and defend the other side? John, why don't you go first this time?
Go ahead and defend those filthy assassins.
John Erdely:
The filthy assassins. I like the premise of the first game where Altair was, if I pronounced that correctly, give me a star.
TJ Blackwell:
But close enough.
John Erdely:
He's kind of on a quest for redemption, which was completely bogus because the dude was betraying him the whole time. But he was getting back into the Order. He's like getting back in with the boys. He's completing quests and he thinks he's doing the right thing.
But moreover, they have their own little kind of thing going. Like they have their own little almost like castle kingdom kind of, or like little order of fraternal kind of going on.
And that's always kind of cool. Reminds me of Ra Al Ghul or the Leg of Shadows. Yeah, it's. It's kind of cool.
And I guess I defend that where it's just like, you know what, you could be, you could be a really cool assassin dude, you know, and, and obey the, the Order. And they're like a tight, a very tight knit group.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah.
John Erdely:
With a very strict code.
TJ Blackwell:
It's like some kind of brotherhood.
Christian Ashley:
Yeah. Okay, tj, defend your opposite, please.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah, I mean, I definitely understand the like, good points of the Templars. You know, some people shouldn't be, you know, in certain situations. Say it that way. I just can't Agree with them.
But I do understand the desire to, you know, have the authority to be like, hey, we're not gonna do that, you know, for the betterment of the country. We're not gonna allow that. So it's not unreasonable. Like, if I needed to support the Templars, I could. I just can't. Man should be free.
Christian Ashley:
Okay, yeah, great points. Read by both of you. Me, when it comes to this, I get the idealism behind the Assassins actual Creed and what they do.
The idea of people should be able to make their own decisions. We've got to trust people. And there's a naivete to that.
But there's also something that does want better for others and wants to believe that humans can be a little better than who we are. And there's something very admirable about that.
I would still argue it's ultimately naive in the same way that I would argue that Templars are too hard for their own good. They're not as smart as I think they are. They're too prideful sometimes for their own good. And that's one thing.
One reason why the Assassins needed to be around is because some Templars took things way too far in their effort to gain control. And as a result of that, lives were lost that didn't need to be lost. They would cause different conflicts across the series.
You know, you got the Seven Years War to Revolutionary war and beyond, the French Revolution itself, just as three examples of people thinking that they're better than everyone else, deciding this is better for the world if we do this. And that's ultimately why, yeah, I picked them as my side, but I'm still not 100% with them for the Templars because I don't trust people.
I don't even trust the smartest people in the room to all make a decision to come together and say, yes, this is for the betterment of everyone. I like the idea behind it. Once again, I think it's less naive. Then everything is permissible.
But there's still a huge problem there, which the Assassins have a great point when they bring up why Templars do what they do and how it harms people, whether they think it's going to do that or not.
All right, so moving on from there, do you guys have any favorite characters from either side or both sides of the conflict that kind of click with you?
John Erdely:
Well, if I remember correctly, Robert, the main Templar villain dude is the one who exposed his. His Order's master as the great Betrayer. And then I'm just like, I kind of just Feel bad for it. It's just like, so you.
He killed all these nine people, you know, and it was all based on kind of a. The lie. And it's just. It's one of those plots that makes me think about it.
I'm just like, dang, he completed all those quests and killed all those people and it feels like it's all for nothing. It's.
TJ Blackwell:
It's tough being like heavily invested into the. Into a character who just gets betrayed at the very end of the game.
Christian Ashley:
But I'll tell you, it's still awesome. That's what matters. Anyone else you guys want to pick?
TJ Blackwell:
Definitely. I think pretty much every character in Assassin's Creed 3 was phenomenal.
Connor and Haytham Kenway, both so good, so good to have the, like your assassin and the main Templar be father and son.
Christian Ashley:
What a good choice.
TJ Blackwell:
Which also allows Desmond to play as both of them. It's so good.
Christian Ashley:
Extremely useful. That's a great reveal too. Yeah.
TJ Blackwell:
Spoiler alert for this game.
Christian Ashley:
I mean, in three. Because you think. I mean, why wouldn't you think that you'd be starting off as anything other than, you know, the protagonist?
John Erdely:
Yeah.
TJ Blackwell:
Because Haytham uses a hidden blade.
Christian Ashley:
He has the assassins blade. And it turns out, no, he's. He's actually on the Templar side. He was just pretending to do all these things. That would be a very Assassin.
So you can rat out their enemies and, you know, fathering Connor and being like your big bad dad. That is a very Vader and Luke kind of situation there. That's a great one. Because Connor is a. Yeah, Connor's a great choice because you've got the.
The whole thing of him being mixed heritage in a time where, well, that wasn't really looked out very favorably. And yet at the same time, he believes in ideals and freedoms that are being espoused by the revolution and wanting to see justice done.
But also being a child of two worlds, literally in, you know, his racial background, but also a Templar and assassin background and having his dad fighting against him. Yeah, he's one of my picks for sure. I'm also. You go ahead.
TJ Blackwell:
Well, Ezio and Altair obviously both deserve their flowers. Great characters. I think Etio is better. But then also Edward Kenway, the pirate, Black Flag. Yeah. So good.
Christian Ashley:
What a tragic end to a story, man.
TJ Blackwell:
They're going to remake.
Christian Ashley:
Have your own. Oh, that they are. Yeah, I did see that. And lose your son like that and have him become a Templar. Oh, after all the work you did. The cruelty.
It's what keeps it from being like a downer ending is like, you know that Assassin's Creed 3, you played that first. Unless you did it the way I did. I was gonna say that probably really.
TJ Blackwell:
Good for you because you had to know Edward and then you met Haytham.
Christian Ashley:
You know, things work out. It's fine. I'm also Dark Horse pick. I'm throwing out Alfred the Great from Valhalla.
He is presumably the one in charge of the Order of the Ancients that are working in that. As you know, Ivor is becoming.
This assassin esque character, and he doesn't really create like an organization or anything like that during the game, but, like, he's fighting against who are essentially the Templars of his time. But Alfred the Great, you find out, despises the. The Order because it goes against his Christian beliefs.
And we'll get into how that kind of plays later on in the series because there's some major reveals that are made that kind of put that into doubt. But, like, for him, God is the only one worthy of any of this.
So he has used you to get rid of the Order so that he doesn't have to be under his influence and he doesn't have to worry about it anymore. And because he values his relationship with God that much, it's like, man. I don't even know if I want to kill you.
Despite everything that happened as a result of this, you were just that smart of a man. And you have a very good reason for why you did what you did.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah, I'd kill him anyway.
John Erdely:
I don't know.
Christian Ashley:
Do you even have the option? It's been a while since I played.
TJ Blackwell:
I don't think so.
Christian Ashley:
Okay, yeah, maybe you do have to do it. I'd have to look it up again or replay it, but no, I'm not replaying Valhalla. I. I serve my time. It's fun, but that is like the definition of bloat.
John Erdely:
Yeah. Yeah.
Christian Ashley:
So I might just watch a cutscene.
TJ Blackwell:
I'm not a fan of that whole era, so. Yeah.
Christian Ashley:
Okay. So do we have a favorite game in the series? John, I know your answer, and.
But I want to hear what you have to say about your favorite and only game in the series.
John Erdely:
Well, I mean, I really do look forward to playing Black Flag because it's got pirate ships and sea shanties and stuff, and that'll be a lot of fun. But seeing as Number One's the only game I played, it has to be my favorite by proxy. I enjoyed it, especially in the original Xbox 360 era.
When open world games were just first starting out, really like Oblivion came out as a launch title and that blew my mind.
And then when Assassin's Creed came out and you could explore and run around and hop up on, look at the vistas and the views of the, the cities and the different locations you could go to and they were all kind of historical. So you kind of almost got a little bit of a history lesson.
I know it's like historical fiction, but you know, it's still, you know, it challenges you to think about these ancient cities and, and you know, do your own research or at least for me, I mean, other people might just enjoy the killing and the action and stuff, but for me it was, it was really cathartic. Kind of. It was a lot of fun to be able to, you know, explore an open world in a historical fictional setting. That was pretty.
Because Xbox360 was the new generation. It boasted the new graphics and it was just blowing our minds because we grew up with the Nintendo 64 PS2 era.
So when the Xbox 360 came out and those graphics, they were mind blowing at the time. And they're still good, they still hold up.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah, to be fair, PS2 games, that leaned into the style, they still look great.
Christian Ashley:
Yeah.
John Erdely:
I mean, you can't beat some of the RPGs like Sly Cooper and some stylistic games on PS2, they still hold up too. But you know, there's other games that.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah, not so much.
Christian Ashley:
But you raised a good point there, John, that, you know, Ubisoft, for all their many, many flaws, they do care about the history to an extent here. I mean, yeah, they're making up stuff, but they have very optional parts where you can actually explore the history behind.
You know, you find this temple or you end up at this specific location and they'll say, hey, this is what it was used for. It was devoted to this God or whatever, or this happened in X year. And this is why this thing is important. And I love that.
I mean, as someone who loves history, loves learning. I mean, to learn while you're playing a game, while I'm also trying to murder people. It is, is fun.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah, it's really awesome. Whether you're getting to know, you know, Da Vinci or was it Michelangelo?
John Erdely:
Both.
Christian Ashley:
Both. It's been a while.
TJ Blackwell:
Ben Franklin, like, it's really cool to have a series that is historical fiction that isn't like way over the top, you know, that I really.
Christian Ashley:
You should play Assassin's Creed 3 too.
TJ Blackwell:
Because just them being like, hey, it's Boston Massacre Time.
Christian Ashley:
It's really funny. You get to be in the middle of it.
TJ Blackwell:
From my perspective, it's really funny. It's like, oh, we're doing the Boston Massacre. Okay, cool. But. Wow. It's cool.
And what they need to do, instead of like leaning into this whole RPG thing like they've done already and it is too late, but what they should have done is to bring it more into the modern era and could have had a game where we just play as Desmond. Is team up with Tom Clancy Studio.
Christian Ashley:
Yeah, yeah, I see the appeal.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah.
Christian Ashley:
Okay.
TJ Blackwell:
You see where I'm going with that.
Christian Ashley:
Yeah.
TJ Blackwell:
Would have been phenomenal because they do like the asymmetrical multiplayer thing and they have since Chaos Theory, but, like, they know how to do it. It'd be so easy for Tom Clancy to take the assassin, the Templars, and turn it into, like a great live service Assassin's Creed game.
Christian Ashley:
So getting back to the question, tj, what's your favorite four? Black Flag? Yeah, three.
TJ Blackwell:
Three and four. Hard to pick. Hard to pick. I love the ocean. I love pirates. I love boats. And sharks. But it's really hard for me because three is awesome.
And I think it's just a little bit deeper than four. Four lost a couple of the things from, like the Homestead, you know, replaced it with the ships, which is reasonable. Understandable.
I do like the ships. I like ship combat. It also have that a little bit in three, but yes, a lot better in four.
Christian Ashley:
It's a little jankier in three, but, you know, they were figuring it out.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah.
Christian Ashley:
But it's been a staple most games since then. Yeah.
TJ Blackwell:
The. The Homestead in three felt so cool.
They just decided to borrow, like some city building aspects and I was like, here, you're going to build a real homestead, like huge estate.
Christian Ashley:
New side quests for some of the characters there.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah. It was so engaging. Yeah. And then this brotherhood and revelations that they're all phenomenal. But a gun to my head, I'd probably say four.
John Erdely:
Okay.
Christian Ashley:
Yeah. I'm also gonna answer Black Flag. This one is like, man. Because I always had that fear if I kept going back, it was just going to be worse.
It was just going to be terrible. And I wasn't going to be because I didn't grow up with. I wasn't going to have as big of appreciation for it before it was like.
So I just keep going like, yeah, it won't be the same because obviously, you know, game graphics improve and AI improves and stuff like that. But no, this is super fun. All the Ship combat you can do there.
Yet other games had it and I played them, but you could tell, like, oh, they put a lot of love and care into this and I enjoy what they're doing. And you know, the tragedy of what happens there, the writing is pretty good for that one. I'd say three probably has better writing overall.
But yeah, I mean, the, the connection, when you see the connective tissue between them, it's like, man, okay, this is definitely like a duology for them. Okay, so as mentioned previously, the main conflict between the two factions is the struggle between freedom and control.
What points do both sides make about this? About why the right and what do we think about them that we, I mean, we brought up before that we haven't brought up before.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah, I feel like we pretty much, we pretty much covered this more or less. I, you know, I feel like I don't need to super.
John Erdely:
Oh, killing people's bad.
TJ Blackwell:
But like the assassins wouldn't have to exist if the Templars didn't. And I do understand they want to control like these super powerful relics, but. You know, the assassins could just kill.
Christian Ashley:
The people who try to abuse the relics.
TJ Blackwell:
Or like rehab them or whatever is correct. They wouldn't be able to call themselves assassins, though.
Christian Ashley:
John, anything you want to add?
John Erdely:
I was going to say the, the Templars is kind of like the Jedi Order all over again, where it's, you know, in general, you know, it's based on, you know, good ideas and there's ideals that they, that they should be following.
But of course, you know, some people are going to be ignorant, some people are going to be corrupt, some people are going to want to use the relics for themselves, you know, but in general, you know, the Jedi were trying to do the right thing. And I feel like the Templars are kind of, it doesn't. Not a perfect analogy, but kind of doing the same thing. They have an idealistic kind of a.
At least a positive sort of view. Kind of like police.
Christian Ashley:
Yeah, I agree. They both have a solid foundation to where you could see why you would pick either side and think that you'd be in the right to do so.
Well, the main issue is once again that it relies on people not being themselves.
It revolves around people, you know, denying themselves their sin, denying themselves their goals and arrogance and pride and self preservation and looking out for the people that you say you care about.
And I say that as someone who is, you know, attempting to work in the church, you know, under a role of a leader there, like as an ideal that's A naivete I'm going to have to bring to myself too. In that. In that, hey, churches aren't perfect either. They are filled with people who by very definition are not perfect.
And they're expecting you to show them what to do.
And the goal is that we trust one another to work as much in harmony as we can, as unified as we can to get stuff done, to make sure people are being discipled, well looked after in the community and beyond.
And yeah, like there is to someone like me who's very once again that as far away as you get from a humanist as possible, I still have to believe if I want to work in an organization like this, that there is hope. And that's something I've had to work on for multiple years because my natural instinct is say no, it's impossible.
And like, well, yeah, it's impossible. But I also, I mean, not to make get too Jesus Juki here.
I do believe, you know, in the God who changes people and makes them a little better than who they were, despite our sin, despite who we are as fallen people. So like, I get it. The idea of we are right because of this. Yeah, everyone thinks they're right and these two organizations think they're right.
But we see throughout the games there are many flaws despite, you know, taking more often than not the assassin side, because it's. Assassin's Creed is the name of the title, but still at the same time is willing to say they're not perfect either because humans are flawed.
And I think if we took that a little more in our everyday lives, not to say like, I want you to be cynical as possible and say, well, they're just going to fail me. It's like, no, no. Humans are flawed so they can make stupid decisions, but they can also make really great decisions.
And part of that is we have to trust people and also be prepared for when that trust is broken. Yeah.
TJ Blackwell:
It's not unreasonable to. To have that.
Christian Ashley:
That viewpoint.
TJ Blackwell:
And beyond Templar side. They kill people.
Christian Ashley:
Well, speaking of killing people, like, is assassination ever a valid method of dealing with a problem? And of course the problem being a human being.
TJ Blackwell:
Yes.
Christian Ashley:
Okay, how so?
TJ Blackwell:
Sometimes you favor whatever they happen. Oh, Shinzo Abe number one.
Christian Ashley:
No, no, the doohickey. Hold on.
TJ Blackwell:
Have a list. I'm not gonna go with the rest of the list.
Christian Ashley:
Okay, yeah, better off.
TJ Blackwell:
But no, I. Morally, no. Realistically, maybe so. You know, John. And I don't, I don't. Shinzo Abe needed to be assassinated.
Just the, the way that it happened was, was crazy.
Christian Ashley:
This is Your first episode. That's just TJ being tj.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah. If you haven't seen the Shinzo Abe doohickey. If you look up those words exactly, you'll. You'll see what I'm talking about. John. But was nuts.
John Erdely:
At the risk of, you know, NSA listening in on our podcast, is assassination ever, you know, valid? And that always. It just begs the question is. It's human nature. It's kingdoms rising and falling.
It's someone's so corrupt that they just gotta go and do the ends justify the means. It's a. It's like the Ten Commandments, thou shalt not kill. But then God tells his people to go kill some people. You know, it's. It's.
Christian Ashley:
Thou shalt not murder.
John Erdely:
That's a number.
TJ Blackwell:
Okay.
John Erdely:
I mean, I guess you're right.
Christian Ashley:
You know what I mean?
John Erdely:
It's. It's almost a catch 22, but it's like, yes, but no, and yes.
TJ Blackwell:
Okay, yes. Free Luigi.
Christian Ashley:
I knew that was going to come up. Okay, so this is not an easy question to answer. And if you think it's an easy question to answer, we have a problem.
Because you can say, oh, yeah, all killing is wrong. No, you can also say, well, if the government doesn't, it's okay. And we as that. Whoa. We have two separate opinions there. Not right on either side.
But I believe there is a way to do this correctly.
And it requires a bunch of oversight in a way that does not exist, shall we say, for the CIA or anyone involved in extracurricular activities like that and that. Yeah, you know what?
For the greater good could be achieved if we, you know, take the head off of this snake, wherever that snake is, and, you know, cause maybe some infighting in this group to where they're not as capable of leading themselves and causing harm to others. Sure.
So, yeah, we can organize, say, a drone strike on this Al Qaeda leader or ISIS leader or something like that to make sure that they can't cause further harm. But you're also taking a human life there, and I do believe it's a justified way to do that.
But you also have to make sure that you're doing it in a way that only takes down who you want to take down, which can get very indiscriminate if your morals are way down.
And I'm not going to solve this in the span of a single conversation, but that's where I kind of land is like, yes, it can be, but you better make sure you're right.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah, I kind of. I'm Not a big fan, obviously, of the US Military way of getting that done sometimes.
But I do think it's really funny to be like, hey, we built the new bomb and he's in that building. Probably. Just remove that building. Which has happened a few times over the past few years. And I.
You know, I don't think that's targeted enough to be an assassination.
Christian Ashley:
And that's a call that I think that pretty much every. Yeah, every president knows. I mean, even Clinton made some. Bush made some. Obama did a lot. Biden. Yeah.
This is not like a writer, a right or left issue. This is who's in charge. They're going to be making that decision. Do they have the right intel, that they have the right people making sure it's done?
TJ Blackwell:
Well, yeah, but, you know, just. Just blow up that mountain. That's an assassination. That counts.
John Erdely:
What, like a new lawn where she shot the mountain and destroyed all the Huns?
Christian Ashley:
Yeah, except the one she was really needed to kill. But you know what my problem? He was 5ft in front of you.
TJ Blackwell:
Kill all of them except for the one that was really a problem. Kill all of the replaceable ones.
Christian Ashley:
It worked eventually.
John Erdely:
Less background characters.
Christian Ashley:
Yeah, they didn't have names, they didn't have souls. They're fine.
Anyways, so moving on from there, as mentioned before, like, one of the things they reveal in the games from the very beginning is that humanity is a kind of an uplifted race, as it were, by the precursors that came before us, known as the isu. And we learn that basically that means that every religion is a lie as a result of this, because humanity was not in this.
Like, there is no Adam and Eve.
There is a literal Adam and Eve in the backstory, but it's going to be a human who was uplifted rather than one, you know, created from the dust by God. So, like, what does it mean for us, then, in the canon of the Assassin's Creed games? Our religion is based on a great big lie.
Given what we learn about the isu, how they uplifted humanity and everything that comes with that.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah. So, like, should we be enjoying Assassin's Creed as Christians?
Christian Ashley:
Oh, that too. Yeah. We'll throw that one in there.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah. Yeah.
Christian Ashley:
It's fictional.
John Erdely:
Well, I mean, the game's called Assassin's Creed. I mean, it's.
Christian Ashley:
No.
John Erdely:
Should a Christian be jumping into the Assassin's Creed and just play a game where you're just mercilessly killing a bunch of people and. Probably not the healthy thing in the world, but morally.
TJ Blackwell:
But it's quick, relatively painless most of the time.
John Erdely:
Yep.
TJ Blackwell:
Especially in early Asus Creed 1. He was just. Yeah, knife throat.
Christian Ashley:
Well, you're not allowed to kill civilians either. Yeah. That has since changed. It's a great way to keep your bounty up in later games. Yeah, so I may have indulged, but, you know, they're not real.
It's fine. But yeah, no, I, I, I get your point. Yeah, it's not real. This is not the story of our world.
You know, if, if I were to place myself in that world and I'd learned all this, I probably would have ended up like an Alfred the Great. It's like, well, yeah, it's a lie, but this lie is far more enriching than anything else dreamt of by man. So I'm going to choose to follow this.
You know, maybe Jesus in this timeline just used pieces of Eden to perform his miraculous works. But what did he use them to do, like heal the sick and look after people? That's certainly very admirable. Who else would I want to follow?
But yeah, obviously in that case, there would be no salvation. There would be nothing there. We're just some cosmic mistake. And there'd be the existential dread that would come from something like that.
But yeah, it's just a game.
Yeah, yeah, there are some things like, I guess, same, same thing in that timeline of, you know, whatever they call the, the aliens, the engineers, they just, they made us in their image, just like God. It's like, okay, so every religion is wrong. It, whatever Hollywood bs, It's this video game bs. Just accept it, move on with your life.
It's not actually what happened in reality.
John Erdely:
Yeah, I mean, kind of like I just finished his Dark Materials, which is Philip Pullman, who is a renowned atheist and he called it his anti Narnia series. And he has the, you know, basically the church who follows the quote unquote authority as the bad guy.
And it's, you know, just typical with a lot of media is they have, they, they borrow all the cool stuff from Christianity but then have like none of the Christian origins and stuff, and they change up stuff and then try to make the religion to be a false religion somehow in their canon somewhere.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah, yeah.
Christian Ashley:
This isn't a South ethic issue if you're, if you're actually struggling with this. I mean, yeah, take some time, think about it, reflect, you know, ask around. Have treasured, you know, trusted people to talk to about this.
But I don't think it's something to worry about. I don't think it's something. I mean, wrestle with it for sure, but don't let it beat you up. All right.
So, gentlemen, do you have anything you'd like to discuss before we start wrapping things up and announce the bonus question.
TJ Blackwell:
We'Re going to be doing really unfair for, like all of the early assassins to have to get their ring finger cut off to use the hidden blade when that just. They just stopped doing that. It was never really necessary. But yeah, shout out.
Altair, Ezio, Romulus, just, you know, the brave souls who willingly gave up their fingers for nothing.
John Erdely:
Also, I wanted to briefly mention that Assassin's Creed, I mean, bear in mind I'd never played Prince of Persia, didn't know it existed. Introduced me to the whole, you know, running around, climbing objects, you know, and climbing buildings. So, like, kind of lickety split.
The Parkour, I feel like Parkour kind of blossomed in the same era that the Assassin's Creed and Prince of Persia games came out because they're just free running and you're jumping all over the place and. And it was, it was new to me in games like that. I mean, we played platformers, but not like realistic ones.
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah, Parkour is awesome.
Christian Ashley:
Okay, well, with that in mind, we are going to be doing a special bonus question that's going to be what time period would we like to see the next Assassin's Creed game be in and what should our protagonist be like? So if you're interested in that question, you want to hear what we have to say about it? It's a little money our way. We're on fourth wall.
You can look down at the link in the description down below and it'll send you straight to where you need to go to sign up. We do have a free tier. So before we actually head that way, gentlemen, do you have a recommendation for the audience?
John Erdely:
For the audience? I mean, Christian or not, I do recommend the His Dark Material series as a. If you've read the books, it's faithful to the books.
I mean, they do take a few liberties. It's hbo, but it's not as bad as Netflix taking liberties. It's a great series. It's endearing, good characters, great world building and it.
I was a little disappointed in the ending, but it was by the book. I was disappointed in the original ending. So it's not, it's not bad. It was. It's a really good series to watch.
TJ Blackwell:
I. I've recommended so many things over the years, but I don't think I've ever recommended a YouTube series. If you haven't. If you're not like a big YouTube person.
There is one YouTube, you know, series that I do think you should check out if you care about, you know, celebrities or just like existential conversations. Last Meals with Josh Scherer and the Mythical Kitchen. They yeah, you know, it's like good Mythical mornings kitchen crew.
They cook celebrities last meals. All their favorite foods. They like, ask them like, hey, what would you want your last meal to be?
They cook all of it and they talk about death and it's so good. They've had like Serj Tonkin on there from System of Down. Alona Mar just had an episode. She's the rugby player. Elizabeth Olsen just did one.
Like it's. It's crazy. So good. Such an interesting series to watch. And the food just looks delicious. Check that series out. It's.
Christian Ashley:
It's. It's good. It's really good.
John Erdely:
Isn't that Rhett and Link?
TJ Blackwell:
Yeah, Rhett and Link and they like hired a kitchen full of people and it's the kitchen that does the last meals part. But they did also do an episode with Red and Link on Last Meals.
Christian Ashley:
So.
TJ Blackwell:
But yeah, they are like affiliated.
Christian Ashley:
Well, they go in a wildly different direction. I just saw Zootopia 2 not too long ago and I love Sweet. I would even say it's better than the original.
So I don't know if that's a hot take, but I had a ton.
John Erdely:
Of fun up with it.
Christian Ashley:
I think their anti racism message was a lot better this time around. Awesome. All right, so wait once again if you want to support us, you can head over to fourth wall. Once again.
Or you can head that to that link down below through the fourth wall. Systematic ecology. Or the link down below below. And you want to get shouted out on the show.
If you're the three dollar tier or above like these people are, we'll say your names like Russell Gentry, Justin Vaughn, Annette Noel and Jeannie Mattingly. You guys are the best. But remember, we all are chosen people. A geekdom of priests.
