The discourse centers on a critical examination of Albert Mohler's concept of theological triage, which delineates various levels of theological concern and subsequently informs our understanding of church unity. Joshua Noel and TJ Blackwell engage with Tripp Fuller to explore the implications of such a framework in contemporary ecclesial contexts. They delve into how differences in theological perspectives can impact the perception of unity within the church, prompting inquiries into the nature of fellowship among believers with divergent views. Furthermore, the conversation seeks to define the parameters of church unity, whether through essential doctrines or more nuanced theological disagreements. Ultimately, this episode offers a critical examination of what it means to maintain unity amidst theological diversity, emphasizing the necessity of dialogue and understanding in fostering a cohesive Christian community.

The current episode offers an in-depth criticism of theological triage as articulated by Albert Mohler, a framework that delineates the hierarchy of doctrinal significance within Christian discourse. Joshua Noel and TJ Blackwell invite Tripp Fuller to dissect the ramifications of this model for church unity and the spectrum of theological concerns that it encompasses. Mohler's triage categorizes beliefs into four tiers, ranging from first-order issues deemed essential to the gospel, to fourth-order opinions that bear minimal ecclesiastical weight. This categorization serves as a navigational tool for believers to assess and prioritize their theological disagreements, potentially fostering a more cohesive church environment. Throughout the conversation, the speakers probe the relevancy and applicability of such a triage in today’s fractured church landscape.

Fuller articulates a vision for church unity that transcends mere doctrinal agreement, emphasizing the significance of relational integrity and mutual respect among believers. The dialogue underscores the importance of addressing theological differences with grace, suggesting that a commitment to love and understanding can lead to genuine unity, even amidst profound disagreements. In essence, this episode not only elucidates the concept of theological triage but also challenges listeners to reflect on their own approaches to church unity. The insights provided by Noel, Blackwell, and Fuller encourage a re-examination of how theological disagreements can be navigated constructively, advocating for a church that embodies love and grace while remaining firmly rooted in essential gospel truths.

Takeaways:

• In this episode, Tripp Fuller articulates the notion of theological triage, presenting a structured approach to understanding varying levels of theological disagreement within the Church.
• Joshua Noel and TJ Blackwell engage Tripp Fuller in a profound dialogue about the implications of unity within the Church, particularly in light of contemporary theological divides.
• The conversation explores the significance of mutual respect and love among differing theological perspectives as essential to fostering unity in the Christian community.
• Tripp Fuller discusses the historical context of theological disagreements, emphasizing the need for humility and openness in theological discourse to navigate complex issues.
• The episode highlights the importance of communal practices, such as prayer and fellowship, as vital components for maintaining church unity amidst diverse beliefs and opinions.
• Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own theological positions and consider how they engage with others who hold differing views, promoting a spirit of dialogue and understanding.

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Check out TJ on Systematic Geekology:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/f4c32709-d8ff-4cef-8dfd-5775275c3c5e

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Hear more from Joshua on Be Living Water:

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Be sure to come out and meet Joshua, TJ, and Tripp at Theology Beer Camp 2026 in Kansas City:

https://theologybeer.camp/

But if he won't listen, take one or two others with you, so that by the testimony of two or three witnesses, every fact may be established. If he doesn't pay attention to them, tell the church.

If he doesn't pay attention even to the church, let him be like a Gentile and a tax collector to you. Truly, I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you lose on earth will have been loosed in heaven.

Again, truly I tell you, if two of you on earth agree about any matter that you pray for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am there among them.

In this pricope, Jesus is talking to his disciples as they had begun to ask him questions.

And here Jesus is giving instructions for as followers should interact with one another, he transitions from telling his followers how to correct one another into telling them how to pray together and possibly manifest together. Trip Fuller why do you think Jesus may have put these ideas together here?

And how do you think we might read passages like this differently when the church is as fractured as it is?

Well, I mean, I think a lot of them here coming in the third big section of Jesus talking in Matthew is like the how to guide to the vision of community he cast in the chapters five through seven during the Sermon on the Mount.

And they, they seem like the very practical advice you get when someone's like, so about that salt and light thing, so about that blessed are the peacemakers thing.

Did you mean insert the person you love to define yourself against or that horrible, filthy sinner or whatnot, that Jesus is sitting here going like, look, if you're trying to figure out what that looks like, it begins by, I don't know, not gossiping about them in the form of a prayer request, but going to talk to them.

And if they just shrugged you off and you think it's really important, and then someone else you share community and values with sits down and tries to talk to them. But if they, they'll have none of it.

The only reality they can identify as gods is their own version of the truth, then, then you're going to, you're not going to like throw stuff at them.

You're going to treat them as you would treat someone that's not a part of the church, namely, as someone that does not trust the love God has for them yet.

Because when you have received that love, then you're no longer anxious that you have to be in control of the truth or the situation or the final arbiter of things. And what happens in a community where you're that vulnerable, where tensions, disagreements, and stuff get worked out in intimate relations.

It's that very space where the potential for the kingdom of God to come in your relations and the way you relate to your neighbors and your enemies, that it becomes possible.

So when you gather in my name that has this agenda that I've already been talking about for the previous 18 hours or 18 chapters, then a whole new possibilities come into being.

But think of how many times we never get around to enacting what God's invited us into in Christ because we're hung up with, like, somebody or a group of people who are like. I don't think he meant. When he said, blessed are the peacemakers. I think he meant, it's a great name for a missile. And, you know, you just kind of.

I read this passage, and you can just think of how many situations that are going on presently or this whole mechanism of encounters being skipped over to settle in tweets. And. Yeah, and it's always good. So it's good. And I'm a Baptist to have a pope who's trying to actually practice this and.

And resist getting pulled into lambasting war, rhetorical warfare. But, yeah, that's. That's initially what comes to mind.

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Especially because I every.

For some reason, every time I've read this verse, like I read, it was like, I've always subconsciously read as, like, Jesus. Like, well, so two of you come to correct then the whole church, and then, like, if they never listen, just screw them, man.

And it's like, oh, wait, no, that's not what he says. He says, you treat them like these other people. We are still supposed to love those other people.

I don't know why my brain's always subconsciously just been like, Jason was like, ah, screw him.

At that point. Paul. Paul has the line where, you know, he's like, you're just going to love the hell out of them. You know, like, you're good.

You're going to love them so much. It just. That's what gets.

Like, literally.

Yeah, yeah.

It's good stuff. Hey, guys, welcome to the Whole Church Podcast, possibly your favorite church unity podcast. It's cool.

If it's not, though, we're not in competition with the other Church Unity podcast because that's self defeating. And I'm told from the co host with the absolute most, I'm not allowed to be a self defeating host at least.

So I gotta listen to Pod Almighty, the one and only TJ Tyre Ace one Blackwell. Welcome to your show.

Thank you.

Yeah.

And not only am I here with Pod Almighty, I'm being extra humbled today because I'm also here with the great Pod Father, the one and only Trip Fuller of homebrewed Christianity. And we're like homebrew theology. My brain isn't working today, but that's fine. I don't have to think.

Not like I, I talk on a podcast for a couple hours a week. It's fine. Yeah.

There's no relevance on your, on your personal skills.

Yeah. I can just stumble and say just noises. It won't matter.

Yeah. So if you're listening to this and you, if you're listening to us and you don't know who Trip Filler is, what's up?

That's big for us.

That's good to meet you.

That's big for us. But if you are one of those people. Trip Fuller is a visiting professor of Theology and Culture at Luther Seminary.

He has received his PhD in Philosophy, Religion and Theology at Claremont Graduate university for over 13 years. It's more than that, isn't it?

It's like, yeah, we just had our 18th birthday.

Yeah, that's a little over 13. I stole this from something. I'm not going to lie. I stole this bio years for a while. For over a month.

A Trip Holder has been for the past 18 years. Tripp's been doing the Homeroot Christianity podcast where he interviews different scholars about their work.

So you can get nerdy in traffic, on the treadmill or doing the dishes. He's also the leader of Theology Beer Camp where we have been in attendance for the last few years.

And we'll have a link to this year's event in Kansas City where listeners can come out and meet us all.

Yeah, all three of us if you want.

It's gonna be fun.

It'll be the first time Josh and I actually go to the same theology beer camp.

Yeah. Which the last two years were also going to be the first year that that happened. So. Yeah, pray with us.

Remember that verse at the beginning where we're like manifesting together right here?

You know what Jesus wants both of you at the same camp.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We still want like Nick and, and, and, and Will and Ryan and Kim. We want the other, other members of your podcast, Triumphant.

Yeah, I wanna. I do wanna pause it, though, and make sure everyone's warned while Trip's here. So he also can't deny that he's been warned.

I'm firmly of the belief that if tj, myself, and Aaron Simmons all end up at the same camp one year, it's gonna actually be like, acts chapter two with fiery tongues or something's gonna happen. Like, it's gonna be wild. Yeah.

Oh, that's what I'm talking about.

Yeah. Well, could be easy.

You'll have. You'll have some people running. Running assistance with some. With some Holy Ghost this year.

Oh, yeah, you might have to do some holy spirit labs, then run around.

I support holy spirit laps. I'm not exactly sure what it is, but it can't be that bad.

Have you never seen someone taken in the spirit and then start running laps around the sanctuary?

Oh, that's what it's called.

That's what I call it.

Well, see, at camp, they might not know if you. It was a Holy spirit lap or just spirit lap. Like, you're like, I need to get my steps in because I've had four IPAs.

Well, also, if it's me, they might just be like, oh, yeah, Josh is very adhd. That's also accurate.

You know, I always listen to podcasts on the treadmill, so this is just how I'm doing this. Yeah.

So you can go to our website purchase. All right.

Yeah, sorry. Okay, I'm going to real quick. I want to shout out to an extra shout out for Tripp, because this episode wasn't planned.

If you guys listen to the end, and here's like, oh, here's the next few episodes. I fumbled the schedule, and I was like, I don't know what we're gonna do.

And my go to is just TJ and I are gonna, like, fumble around for a while and just give you guys something. And then I was like, you know what? I'm. Reach for the moon and just see if Trip happens to have some availability on his calendar.

And, man, guys, we got the moon, so.

Well, last time we actually were scheduled, I had sick children, and it derailed everything. So, you know, I thought that was.

Because it was for the other podcast and this was you secretly telling us you like this show better. That's what I thought.

Will that feel good? The I. I was on the members thing for that, where we were talking about dwarves.

Oh, that was cool, though.

And. And I. And I gave y' all a code. You can give all of your Members, so you should use it again.

So anyone that's listening, you can get a code from Joshua or tj, and then you can use it, and you can get $50 off your ticket at the Ology Beer Camp. So you should just get it. You can come hang out with us. And when does this come out, Josh?

This. A week from tomorrow.

Oh, okay, good. Well, then I. Then I can even tell you more things about camp that we're revealing tonight. Sweet. Like, whenever that comes up, you just let me know.

I'll just start saying things.

Oh, yeah, we. We got a whole. We got a whole part on the outline for that, and I. I'm thrilled. It's going to be fun. And. Yeah.

So thank you, Trip, for filling in and covering up my shortcomings. And, guys, I really. We couldn't have had a better surprise guest for you. I just don't think it's possible, actually.

Except Francis Chan or T.J. blackwell.

Francis Chan. Y' all been working on Francis Chan for a long time.

He's a strong word.

Yeah. I mean, pretty sure he comes up.

With manifesting, but we haven't actually done anything.

Have you considered considering our Matthew 18 passage? Perhaps the Holy Ghost doesn't want you to talk to Francis Chan.

That it could be so disappointing that you've now, like, unified the church too much, that he would like to exclude parts of it that you've unified. And it would be. It in the Holy Ghost is like, I don't want to train wreck Joshua and TJ's Unity Energy. I do think I would have no.

Idea what to say if he was on at this.

We're gonna find out.

Yeah, that's good energy. I like that. Yeah.

But speaking of the ticket price, you can go to the website and purchase one of our T shirts.

It helps promote our show, it helps raise money for podcasting needs, and it gets others to know about the importance of our mission to educate and unite the church. So you could help support Trip by supporting us so that we could pay to go to Theology Beer Camp.

There you go. Yeah, that's what I like to hear. Reciprocity and stuff.

We might bring a few shirts to Theology Beer camp, too. So if you want to do it the other way around and support us by supporting Trip.

Oh, I would just mean if the other options. You're going to wear the same thing the whole time.

If I If I'm day drinking with Holy Ghost laps, then I think you should at least have a new undershirt each day.

Yeah. It's only possible if our listeners can.

The same shirts are just going to bring four or five of the same shirt.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I understand having 12 of the exact same black T shirt.

Yeah. That's what I got from spongebob squarepants.

It's actually once you do your thousandth podcast episode and you're a dude, they mail you a whole set of just black T shirts.

Sweet.

Yeah, I think that sounds like a good one.

Year at Camp Grace, G Son, Kim got there early, and a bunch of us are setting up, and then she realized she's like, there's seven of you and you all have beards and black T shirts on.

Yes, that's the space.

And that is the space.

So they're slimming.

They are.

Check out the Onazel Podcast Network website. Link is below. For other shows like ours.

Yeah. Yeah. Tripp's been on Cismac Ecology, and he's been on some Joyful Noises.

So if you want to see other guest spots of Trip, there are other podcasts he's been on on the show. But, you know, we also want to shout out.

I'm still trying to get myself invited on the new science podcast.

Yeah, that's a. That's a Will thing.

I know.

Will slacken.

Yeah. What? Why? Why have Will and I hung out like, four or five times in person and still no invite. He's just sitting there.

He's like, look, just because you did your postdoc in science and religion, teach science and religion classes, I just want you to give me emails of people I want to have on this podcast and not invite you. And I took it personal.

Will, your matter doesn't matter. Matters.

I think. I think Will. I'm more of a monitor for, like, two episodes. That's. That's what I want.

But no.

Yeah. So speaking of that, that is your Madame Matter. That's another show on the network.

Will is also on Systematic Ecology, and some of his homilies get put up on the. On the homily with Pastor Chill Will from Chapel Hill. Yeah. And once. Once Trip goes and preaches at Will's church, then he'll be on that.

Oh, there you go.

We'll get that going slowly. Yeah.

But for now, though, you guys know I do have a favorite form of unity that we like to kick things off with called Silliness to Holy Sacrament, where we ask a silly question. Yeah. And you can't be not united when you're being, you know, insert excuse. I just want to do something stupid.

If you can make one inanimate object in your house come alive, which one would it be? T.J. and I answer. Will answer first. Give you time to think. Tj.

What?

What's your answer?

My computer.

Why?

I'm berating it. I've got all.

I feel like my computer would complain about how many cigars I smoke while using it. And it would be like, oh, gosh, you gotta vacuum out my keys.

It also gotta be nice.

Hey, launch counter strike.

You know? Yeah. Yeah.

I'm actually gonna go with my bookcase because I feel like it would help me read more because sometimes I get overwhelmed by choice because I just get more books than I can read. And to be able to like, hey, bookcase, which book do you think I should read today?

So it's an. It's an animate bookcase that can read what's in it. Yeah.

I'm assuming it also has read everything that's on it. Like, what else is it doing with its life?

It's. It's like a notebook. Lm.

Yeah.

Where you can query. Query. Select documents you put up. Now your bookcase just starts talking to you.

Yeah, that would be open. All right, Trip, what object are you bringing along?

I think the correct answer is my cast iron pan. I want to know why half the time the eggs just, like, rock and nothing sticks and everything.

And then the very next day, do I think I do everything exactly the same. And then it's like, no, half your egg is sticking to this pan. And I'm like, but you're cast iron. I season you regularly.

Like, what happened the last 24 hours that you're mad at me? And. But then it would just. It would tell me. It'd be like, no, I want.

Could you just stick a half tablespoon of beef tallow in before you start these eggs? Or it. And it. Could it start, like, oh, could you season me a little more? You know, this kind of thing.

I just like this vision of, like, your. Your cast iron just being really bougie. Like, actually, oh, no.

I was thinking like old Southern grandma where. Where she's giving you, like, Southern cooking excitement. She's. She's like, I'm preheated now for that bacon. You can get it to sizzle.

You know, stuff like that.

Perfect. Excellent. Yes.

All right, so Joshua and I both have least favorite church leaders.

Yeah.

I would say his least favorite church leader of today is Al Mohler, and he has popularized the term theological triage. If you thought this was going to be like a yay, yippee, church united episode from the whole church, you're wrong.

I hope you're not a betting man because you would have lost it all for this one.

Some poly market, actually.

Yeah, we're on couch.

I'm gonna go vote as to whether the triage episode is positive or negatively valenced before it's released.

Yeah, we're gonna get for insider, like.

Someone at the secretary. Like the secretary of war making bets on when bombs are gonna fall.

Yeah. So he explains this as levels of.

Disagreements we can have to consider when discussing church unity.

Calls it first order, which is like gospel essentials, second order, which are church dividing beliefs, third order, which can be in house disagreements, and fourth order, which are personal opinions.

So this is supposed to help us decide when we can still see other believers as fellow Christians welcome in our local denomination or church, etc, et al, whatever, based on the triage system. So true. What is your take on a system like this as a concept?

And how do we think Al Mohler might classify these so we can compare that to how we might develop a similar system?

Well, I think. Okay. Triage is what you do in an emergency room to stabilize a patient before you treat them.

Yes.

So I just not sure that's the greatest metaphor for theological disagreement. But I mean, I do understand the difference between like a gospel issue. Right. Like, if.

Now I'm going to imagine we would define them differently since he was part of undermining the integrity of the Southern Baptist Convention and stealing seminaries, campgrounds, orphanages, and all sorts of things because they didn't have the essential gospel doctrine of a anti modern enlightenment resisting anti intellectual evangelical doctrine of inspiration. Right, Like. Like, correct. So I, I'm going to go ahead and put that in his gospel category. I'm not in it, so that's uncomfortable.

But, you know, if I was talking about the gospel things, I. I think it's much better to think of it as centered set. Like, there are these deep commitments that the church historically has.

When I wrote my first book with Philip Clayton, Transforming Christian Theology for Church and Society.

In it, one of our arguments that has stuck with me, that we developed when we were teaching systematic theology together at Claremont, which is a United Methodist school, is instead of saying the essential Christian doctrines as a particular definite answer that you're yay or nay on, to understand the central ones as questions, questions that Christians have answered throughout its history and that we're Tasked with answering today is God. How was God in Jesus? What did God do in Christ we couldn't do for ourselves. What is the spirit and its activity?

Like what is the nature and mission of the church? What is our hope in future? Those kind of things. Like the big seven low side doctrine.

Yeah.

So, but historically the church has always had this ongoing argument about what's adiaphora or not, which is their fun word of like non essential doctrinal commitments. Right.

So if you think of like the 30 Years War, which is, you know, ruined Europe, there was a whole bunch of people that were like, no, my interpretation of the Eucharist is a deal breaker or my interpretation of baptism is one. And so, you know, my ass. A Baptist on the peace church side.

That's led to the magisterial reformers and Catholics all being like, look at these people in their re baptisms. We're going to get them. We're going to. Right? And so, so that's there.

But the, the places I think it's really important to draw those kinds of distinctions are not necessarily like universal, but they're situational. I just finished the first draft of a big Bonhoeffer book.

He has this bit where he's writing a catechism with one of his friends who's has a Jewish grandparent. So now he's no longer to be, no longer allowed in Germany to be minister, a Lutheran minister.

They're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you have a Jewish grandparent, so no basket.

So, so when Bonhoeffer's in London were preaching at these two German congregations there, he basically has him as his assistant, unofficial assistant, who's then doing all the vocational ministry things. They developed this catechism where he moves the Jewish question to gospel essential, where he's like, no, no, no, you're actually not Christian.

If you think baptism, sacraments, all doing weddings and all these things, you're somehow off the list of the church doing this for you if you have any Jewish relatives. Right.

And he was doing it because like you now in Germany, you had this big fight over between the German Christian Church, the Confessing Church and all these things in between. They were trying to stay unified.

And how they stayed unified until the war broke out was, well, we're going to, we're not going to make this a make or break thing.

We're going to, you know, if you want to have a congregation that has, enforcing the one drop of Jew blood principle, that's, you know, that's what you do. And the other ones over here and then over time, the Nazi aligned ones take over.

So like to me, what those issues are, where you would start to think about something like that are more likely going to be generated from ethical crises of integrity to the gospel in your historical moment than like you have to use these words when you're doing a baptism or your doctrine of atonement is super sus, all that Christos Victor, or, you know, these kind of things. But knowing Al, knowing Al, I can already anticipate. Everything I'm saying is just an example of why we really need to be clear about the gospel.

You're like topics that didn't even come up in the Bible. He's got. He knows what God wants.

Yeah. So I want to do in spirit of church unity, I want to say some stuff about Al Mohler in this real quick before TJ goes to the next question.

Like, I still disagree with what he said back then, but I think back in those days he was doing stuff more in good faith, more so.

And it seems like the idea was he thought the church was in a crisis or doing a triage to kind of like resuscitate it or your ability to not go to hell might be in crisis. So we're looking at your triage personally kind of thing. I think that was the idea.

But the reason, I will say the whole church were united except for Al Mohler and Thomas Aquinas. I think come the Trump years, you could very clearly look at some stuff that Al Mohler said before about theology, doctrine, whatever.

Then after Trump, what he said, and I can look at it and go, you know, I know you know better. So I no longer believe you're doing this in good faith. I'm not willing to consider him part of the church. So that's me personally.

And that's kind of an example of that situational thing where I'm looking at this and it's not like a certain doctrine that makes me go, oh, I hate that doctrine so much, I can't include you. It's a. I don't think this is being done in good faith anymore.

Like, I think you're actually just trying to control people and it has nothing to do with faith or Christianity at all.

Yeah, yeah. And that good faith thing I think is important. Um, and you know, Al Mohler's like notoriously reformed as a Baptist.

Uh, and, and, but like without the Perks of the Reformation, the Reformed tradition, when it goes to humility. Right, like part.

Yeah, like one of the elements that's essential to the Reformed tradition is taking sin and its impact on the human person seriously. Right. And, and understanding that Calvin in the Institutes talks about humans as idle factories. Right.

And, and that's not to be like, oh, humans suck. It's to be. Let us be honest about the kind of biases that show up in our reasoning. And we just assume it's true.

All these kinds of things like, we will render unto something finite what should only be given to the infinite. Luther in the Shorter Catechism does something similar, and he's talking about idolatry and says, yeah, like, like everyone has a God.

It's just half the people worship. Half people worship something less than.

And that which you give your allegiance, pour your life into, orient your values by, you know, it's functioning as God. And.

And like one response to that right is therefore we have to have absolute certainty and authority and get it all clear because we know the correct version of this.

And the other half of the Reformed tradition is like, then we should probably recognize the limits of any articulation and knowing because all of it is using a very human tool called language.

This is Schleiermacher, Moltman, Barth, all of which are Reformed that recognize like, yeah, like the moment we get to do theology, theology is always like what humans do.

Thinking about how God has revealed God self and God didn't reveal God's self in some like, vacuum of perfect communication is through the messy history of Israel and Jesus and the early church and his ongoing work in the Spirit in the world.

If the medium of revelation that it should be orienting our thinking, reflecting and such about God is history and people and language, then seizing any of it so tightly you hold a fist around it with certainty just seems to already have abandoned the kind of humility, a conscious awareness of the brokenness of human reasoning and the limits of our language. You know, would.

Would ask for, yeah, yeah, which man? I said real quick before tj, I'll do it again. I'm sorry, tj, but I've also been helping.

One of the other podcasts on the network is the Bible After Hours, and I've been helping my friend with some of working on that and Psalm 85 and 96 both if you like look at the Hebrew, it kind of does this thing of like play on words. Was like, oh, all the other gods are. You know, the way some translations would be like idols but, like, it's really like godlets or like God schmodz.

And I just. It's so funny that that's in the Bible. Just like, meh. Godlets. Like, that's just. Just funny, but it's funny.

That was an interesting visual artifact we had there. But the goal for Al Mohler seems to be more about who's saved and going to heaven or not.

So if you were to create your own triage trip, what would be the goal? Is it evangelism? Flourishing of individuals, Clarity? What are we talking about?

Well, okay. I mean, I guess it kind of depends on the topic that you're, you know, I guess, assessing the framework as a whole.

Yeah, I mean, to me, what most normative would be the actual invitation Jesus gives to his disciples. And we get it in four very different gospels. And then we see it embodied in a different way in Paul and his ministry and such.

So Jesus had the opportunity to give very clear and final theological answers. And if. If we've learned anything in the history of the church, it's that very.

Jesus professionally dodged giving final theological answers and often takes a theological question and then gives a parable that there's a million dissertations written on throughout the history of the church. And then you could read a bunch of them that are beautiful, compelling, open up something, and they could not both be true at the same time if the.

The parable had a single, like, proper understanding. Right. And so the. I think part of the. The triage thing for me would be going back to the kind of like, are you in the places Jesus promised to be?

One of them you just heard in Matthew 18, right.

In.

In the gathering of two or three that are gathered in my name. And then, you know, we've already discussed what all is entailed when you're reading through Matthew.

And that comes up later in Matthew, in the final of the fifth of his fifth big discourse, is where you get him promising to be in the least of these. The face of the other, the downtrodden, the sick prisoners, these kinds of things.

And then when he's having his last meal with his disciples, he promises to show up there. Right.

And so to me, one of the elements, when we think about, especially if we get so wedded to a vision of the truth that we feel legitimates us from cutting someone else off. I think a way to test it is.

Is it is your commitment to it, putting you in the very places Jesus promised to show up in a community where that's how you work out your differences at a table where the ones that deny and abandon you are offered. Offered the elements. And then you tell them that still their job after the resurrection, like is it show. Is it leading you to.

To discover Christ in kind of deep commitment and solidarity with the least of these. And let's start there because a lot of times we, we think we're taking a stand for God and it's really like legitimating us to be a dick.

Did y' all see that? I forget the lady because I could. I work real hard not to have my algorithm show me people that drive me up a wall from certain parts of the church.

But who was just railroading David French? I keep seeing this thing show up. It's Ally Beth Stuckey. Yeah, that's her name.

She's one of these like people are really conservative maga types and she's. She, I guess, you know, had some research or search.

Every time David French refers to any of his trans colleagues at the New York Times, he on some podcast at some point said she. And she's like, well, it's a lie that she's a she, she's a he. And he's like, okay, well then I.

My normal practice and what I intend to do in those situations as an evangelical who's like, you know, shares her theological answer to. To that issue is like, I will just use their first name regularly because then they're being respected as their self understanding at that moment.

And I'm not compromising my more conservative account of gender and sexual identity relations. And. But she wouldn't let this junk out. She's just going on and on about it, right? And. And then the Internet just decided this is triggering the trip.

We're going to show him a whole lot of people mad at David French. And I'm like. And he's like, well, this individual, they had changed their name and this is what's used in the workplace.

And this is what they answer to. Like, it just seems kind of the polite thing to do.

And I try to avo using a pronoun to because I have a theological commitment that, you know, that wouldn't be my. How I wouldn't respond to gender dysphoria that way or wouldn't advocate for that response in my congregation. You know, he's.

He's doing what seems to be the most kind version of. And. And it would. They were just going at it, you know, and. And that to me is one of those bits where you're like, well, we. There's.

You're not actually disagreeing about how you see it. It's just one of you thinks the other comes with like, that demands a kind of respect because of who they are and the value God's given them.

And the other's like, no, I'm going to use their personhood in my relationship as a chance to perform on behalf of God a dismissive account of their self understanding.

And you see, so like, that is a bigger issue than the theological one, which I disagree with both of them and just find their appropriation of Scripture kind of funny. Like, I'm like, it's hard to take that seriously. But you see what I'm saying?

Like, if I'm thinking of the triage thing, I would be, I would have a very different conversation with Ali than David French.

And I would assume from what everything David French did in the conversation that he would be genuinely interested in how a Christian came to a different answer. And he would probably want to understand that. And because he's listening to me, I'd want to listen to him.

And then we'd realize where our disagreements were. And guess what? I bet he wouldn't be upset if we were helping homeless vets together.

And he would go, yeah, it's probably because we're both Christians. This matters to us. So the, the, the triage element, I think is so much more connected to. Does it generate you to. I don't know.

Will they know you're a Christian because of how you love and relate to each other. And the other thing is how many. Okay, y' all have been doing this show for a while. I've been doing 18 years.

If, if I decided whatever I thought right now is like the complete final version, I would have to be cutting previous versions of Trip out. Yeah, you know, like, I, I was a Calvinist Baptist. At one point, I would have agreed with half of what Al Mohler says theologically.

I just would have thought he was being so, you know, like, I think if we can't even imagine a wideness in God's mercy for all of our previous visions, then that's odd. In, in the moment you can, you realize.

Oh, you mean maybe the entire goal of wrestling with something theologically wasn't to get to the one final truth.

You can like, wage war at other people with or convince them, but like, that entire transformation is like the fruit of an ongoing relationship with the living God. Then to start to draw boundaries so aggressively will, will make someone have to dismiss where they are at that moment in relationship to God.

And, and you're, you're like, don't grow anymore or go backwards or whatever. I. It. I don't know, I guess maybe.

And it might just be that I'm a heretic and a filthy sinner and corrupted, but it seems like some of that's above a human's pay grade. But that's different. That's. I'm not saying we all Christians don't in some way keep asking questions like, who is God? How is God revealed in Christ?

How is Jesus, humanity and divinity related? What was accomplished on the cross? All those kinds of things. Those are the questions we carry. But the.

Yeah, yeah.

Anyway, I'm gonna rant a little bit before my next question because I actually listen to almost everything David French does just because I like holding some kind of like, hope that there's still sanity on more conservative sides of things. And that seems to be what he represents to me.

Like when he goes through stuff, I'm like, oh, this is what a sane and good willed version of this argument looks like. Like. And I don't know, it gives me hope. So I actually really appreciate him. And that goes back to like.

I do think to me personally, that good faith thing is just a huge part of it is like, David French, even when I disagree with him vehemently, I'm like, this is a man who wants to love people. Well, I disagree with how he's doing it, but I can tell his intention. You know what I mean? Other part of my rant is my obligatory.

Through my contract, I have to mention C.S. Lewis and the Four Loves. Specifically.

One of my favorite parts is actually in the preface and he talks about the different versions of being close to God or close to the divine right. And he's like, imagine a village at the bottom of a cliff. In proximity, you might be really close to God, but you're at the top of that cliff.

And guess what? You'll never actually get there that way. And someone else might be on their journey, like way out somewhere.

And it's like, oh, they're so far away from those. But guess what? They're a lot closer to actually getting to where the village is. That guy on the top of the cliff.

And I think a lot of the times that's what I see where I'm like, wow, some of these people even who are living right or, you know, whatever, I'm like, they're just not living the journey. Yeah.

The contrast is between proximity and distance traveled.

I love that. And I also want to plug David French is on a lot of stuff, like Holy Post, whatever stuff.

And at One time, Holy Post is like conservative Christians that aren't usually terrible people. But there was a time where Sky Jathani on there was basically saying process theology must be heresy kind of deal or like open theology or whatever.

David Fritz just straight up said, I don't know enough to comment on this. And I loved that. That made me so happy. I'm like, I just wish more people said that.

Like, I actually don't know this well enough to say, that's perfect. That's all I'm asking.

For some people, I'm always amazed when someone knows more about process theology than me, but hasn't read it, but already knows what, how to locate me. And I'm always like, well, how did you get to that conclusion? And then they're like, well, DA Carson said.

I'm like, let me just tell you how wrong that guy.

Like, I mean, I know he would still think I'm a heretic, but yeah, like, you know, that whole bit about not bearing false witness, like that does kind of oblige you if you are dismissing someone as a viable space within the body of Christ to at least have understood the position.

And oftentimes when you have a very set and certain vision of the faith, you go and you're just checking if, if they've answered the question as you would answer it on certain topics. And that is, well, not very helpful.

I mean, like, TJ's probably a heretic, but we, I don't know how yet, but I can already tell because he has a Hurricanes hat on, you know.

Yeah, you'll figure it out one day.

Oh, yeah, right, right. But it's okay. You can just run some more Holy Ghost laps and figure that out.

What are you, what are you supposed to be like? You live in North Carolina. I think you're the heretic. You're not cheering for the Hurricanes.

I mean, I'll watch, I'll watch it if it comes on. I'm just really not a, I'm not a hockey fan most, you know, but, but Josh Patterson, this.

So I get, I get, I think I get more hurricane updates from him and my brother in law, who's my brother in law, season tickets and, and Josh, who will like mention hurricane updates because he just, he's like, you should care about this. You know, I feel like it's. And here, you know, here's one of the things though.

Some people see the Christianity as like, if you meet someone who's like, no, I'm an Islanders fan, right? And now TJ's like, oh, junk freaking Islanders or whatever.

But in an hour, y' all could have so much fun arguing about hockey because you both love hockey. And then that, to me, is like, this how. This how Christians should argue about theology. You're like, oh, so you understand the game we're playing?

Like, we have these questions that we all ask, and you just give a really wrong answer because you're an Islanders fan. Yeah, but I know we're in the same family because you care about hockey.

And it's actually, I was some people when I met Josh Patterson, because that's kind of what it was like.

Yeah. And some people think, like, Christianity, like, at that center, you know, the triage is like, oh, they don't know about hockey or the Hurricanes.

Now I'm gonna have to make them both a hockey fan and then learn that all true hockey fans are Hurricanes fans because all others suck. And they're heretics. Right. And, like, which one is more.

Which one is kind of more determinative of, like, the essentials is, like, for Christianity, I think it's like, oh, you're in the. Do you care about all this stuff? Like, if we were talking and I was like, yeah, but you know how in Matthew, you'd be like, oh, yeah, I love Matthew.

And that's wrong. As opposed to, like, you think not only do you have to learn the sport, but you have to learn that this is the correct team on the sport.

Otherwise, oh, yeah.

I feel like theology and politics both. I used to be. Have an easier time disagreeing with somebody and just having a fun argument.

And now, like, anytime we disagree, I'm like, I feel like I need to avoid the topic. And I'm just like. Because people just. I don't know, People want to just hate now I feel like. I don't know. It's strange.

But I will say, though, yesterday Chipotle, there was a hockey thing going on. It's where I work, and everybody's, like, coming in with, like, hockey jersey or whatever, and I'm like, I know I say, go, Hurricanes.

When I see those people, and I want to be everybody else I see tell them, oh, no, you should be a Hurricanes fan. But then I'm like, wait, one of these team is Josh Patterson's team, and I don't want to accidentally hate his team.

So I was just really nervous all day. Like, I actually was nervous that I was going to accidentally hate Josh's team, and I didn't want to.

Yeah, I didn't see a Washington jersey.

I like. I mean, I love. I Love the NBA, but I really love the Lakers. And I can. I can be open and affirming to almost every team. But the Celtics.

Yeah, that would be. They got to go to NBA triage.

So for the next 30 minutes, we're talking about LeBron's legacy.

No, I was gonna say, like, that's like college football with me. Even like the Miami Hurricanes being rivals with Florida State. Okay. Florida Gators I'm angry at, but I can get over it. I don't know what it is.

Clemson fan. I'm like, I. You just. You need Jesus. I don't know, man. Like something drunk. But that aside, so.

So Trip, interesting question before we start, like, moving on and we gotta like wrap up and stuff. But since we. We both kind of see or all three of us seem like.

And it's strange because earlier on in the show feel like TJ and I would probably have defined the tears a little bit different. And we were doing it as like, first one is like, if you're Christian at all, then second is like, we're different denominations.

Third is we could be in the same church and just kind of like, not like each other. You know, something like that. But the more I'm meeting stuff, the more I'm like, at theology beer camp.

I've met Christian atheists that I'm like, I'm much more comfortable calling them Christian than some of the people who believe exactly like me. So you're bringing up the situational thing. You know, I kind of like the good faith idea with this. If you had to, like, this is the triage.

If we accept the premise that the church is broken and it's in need of immediate care. How would you break down a triage if you were to like, create some tears of like, here's when I should care the most.

Oh, I mean, okay, so like, if Jesus actually gave us explicit directions to do something, I would think those are. Then the question is, how do we do this together? Right? And that's a different question than, well, should we. And I think the, the.

And that's not, you know, how few of those are actual specific doctrines. Like he says, when you pray and when you give and when you forgive and then, you know, has a specific teaching on it. But he doesn't. He doesn't like.

Well, when you've. If you considered praying or on the happen chance that you ever gave anything that you have to another person, right.

Like they're presumptions like these practices disciples do.

And so like, those things tend to matter much more I mean, I think as a church historically there's baptism and the Eucharist are pretty definitional. But I also recognize how the. Some traditions center foot washing in a way that will also, for practical reasons kind of creeps me out.

Don't let TJ and.

But they will. They. That could be function sacramentally.

You also have like interpretations of them, say like in the Friends community, the Quakers who aren't like, it's not like that's not a sacramental community of Christ, but they don't practice them in a way that seems obvious to other Christians. If you're like, well, do you do X, Y and Z? And.

And some people just ruin the whole thing by giving little Jesus Chiclets on top of Welch's grape juice. Like, why would you do that? Like, that's, that's not very difficult. So you like.

But those practices, be it how we relate to others that Jesus gave and then how you identify the community, those.

I mean, I would put rather at the, at the center, you know, for, for me, the questions that, and I don't make these like deal breakers, but like, I think the church has quite the habit of ignoring God's self revelation in Jesus and then turning God back into an imperial tyrant that crucifies people. Right. Like, I think if Christians should be cross bearers and not cross builders, and that is very essential to trip.

I know plenty of Christians are like, nah, dude, I love omnipotence. That junk gets me, just gets me pumped. And I couldn't imagine without it. And I'm like, it's not hard.

I mean, I don't mind telling you about it, but you know, so the, the. But if you're thinking in those practice spaces, then to me there's this sense that it de.

Centers a lot of the things the church finds as boundary markers, like in letters and papers.

When Dietrich Bonhoeffer is writing this letter to his godson, Eberhard Betka's son, on his baptism day, he's never going to meet him his best friend.

And in it he talks about like, look, I can't even imagine what the church is going to look like after all this that you're being baptized into, right? So he's naming a continuity of the church, right, that you're being baptized into it.

And then in his exchanges with Betka and in the letter he wrote him, he's like, the church might need to go into exile. It might need to sell all its property. It might not need people that are paid to be ministers. And he goes through all of these things, right.

That at least function is non negotiables for large portions of the church.

And then he said, and when it rebuilds itself, like, if it's going to have an identity as Christ's body, then it will be centered on the arcane disciplines, which is his phrase, for the sacramental heart of the church and a deep commitment to finding Christ in the face of the other. Yeah, like I, I think if you said something like that, you go, oh, this is what?

Like the disciplines, like the Eucharist, baptism, these kinds of things became determinative of the early church from the earliest of days. We see it in the earliest things we get in the New Testament. Paul's running around baptizing people.

The only time he quotes Jesus is about the Eucharist. Right. And he was not a fan of economically divided church.

The whole ministry of Paul is running around collecting money for people that didn't think he was a real Christian in Jerusalem, like Peter James, Jesus brother and such, to care for the poor in the church in Jerusalem. And then in the same time, he's running around doing that throughout the letters. He writes letters back to the church in Corinth.

And he's like, y' all suck, y', all, y', all, y' all start having worship before most of the people at your church even get off work. You rich fools. And y' all drink all this wine up. They come in, y' all stomachs are full, y' all are loaded.

And then the overwhelming majority of the working class shows up at church. And then you're like, oh, here's the leftovers, you know, blessed be his name. And. And he's like, y', all, y', all, y' all are getting this wrong.

Because the whole point of the gathering is for those differences that exist, like class or, you know, the neither nors of Galatians, race, gender, class, like those kind of things, they get dissolved in the body of Christ because your identity in him is more essential and determinative of what it even looks like to be a male or a female or to be a Greek or a Jew or, you know, this kind of thing. And so they. Even the way he did it resonates, I think, with Bonhoeffer's intuitions there.

And so, you know, for me, the like, if you're thinking of it in levels, those kind of, like, what are the practices like, the arcane disciplines and the finding Christ in the face of the other bit, those seem like non negotiables, what it looks like, well, that will dip different traditions do that differently. Different moments in history ask us to take seriously other people's experience or crises of injustice differently than in other spaces. Right. So.

But like, are. Are we at least committed to doing this, even if we don't know what it looks like yet? Seems of utmost priority.

Yeah. Yeah, I like that.

Real quick, before we do our stuff, if I threw a couple examples at you, could you rank them and how much I should care about these? Just, just cuz. Okay, well, because I'm going to go back to earlier, we were talking about like the Hitler thing, so I'm gonna add racism.

I have a racist guy in there, and maybe he loves Jesus and does all the sacraments and stuff. Right. So that'll be number one. Then let's say Christian nationalism.

I mentioned before, I'm actually confused on this because I'm like, I don't think you can be a Christian nationalist and actually be Christian because it's putting nation identity and all this stuff in pursuit of power over loving your neighbor. So I'm gonna add that one. Let's see. I have a friend who's a nihilist and I'm a universalist. For example, we'll have that in there. Somebody who.

He really likes Jesus, but Jesus isn't God. That's crazy talk. And then somebody who thinks the Bible, stupid man, that'll be. That'll be my fight.

But all five of these individuals are part of your worshiping community? Is that the.

Yeah, let's. Let's say so just for kicks and.

Goods, then I would not worry too much about someone's particular interpretation of the eschat. Eschatological situation. If the two options are universalism or annihilationism.

So hell stuff, who cares? Because get. Who gives that.

Yeah, either. Either one of those. Like, whatever. I mean, yeah, like how much are you. None of you are in charge of that.

Like, if you're like, I love Jesus, I'm not really sure I would use divine. But they're part of a worshiping community and committed to the life of the church and are showing up where Christ promised to be.

Then you're like, this is the perfect location for you to have your mind changed, not by me, but by God. You know, I mean, even Jesus, when he's talking to his disciples, he asked, well, what do people say? I am. And they list stuff off. Who do you.

When Peter says, you're the Christ, son of the living God, he doesn't say, thank you. The evidence demanded the verdict. He said, my heavenly Father revealed that to you.

So what is the optimal space for someone like that to have an encounter with God that makes that, that theological commitment more true?

I would guess at a community that's grounded in the historic disciplines of the faith and committed to caring for the other as caring for Christ, then sure, I wouldn't worry about that.

I, I don't really know what I would do with a nationalist or a racist other than just say, like, in whatever ways you actualize those commitments, you're betraying the gospel. I mean, I'm not going to go, like, I wouldn't put them as a decision maker at a church, but I'm not going to tell them, like, you can't be here.

And I would also ask yourself, well, what are you doing wrong in this, in the proclamation of the gospel? If someone's just like, I love being here and I don't like people that aren't my race, yeah, how's that working? And how did you get there?

Yeah, and I mean national, like, Christian nationalism is just heresy. So I, but it's not like I'm going to run someone off and be like, you know what you need?

You need to go to the church over there where, where they're, where they got their MAGA hats at worship.

Like, why, I don't know why I would run someone off and see when they're in your community is like not that hard for them to end up having friends that don't have that. And you know what, the most powerful this is just like the social psych research.

Like, if someone has a bias that gets actualized in some kind of violence or harm to others, what is most likely to have them change their mind is having a friend of a friend. So, like, you know, Josh, you could, like, you would be more successful to your racist friend to you or their friend.

And, well, who'd they meet at your birthday party? Well, your co workers from Chipotle that represent multiple different races and they're Josh's friend.

And now they're like, well, if this is Joshua's friend and he can even be friends with tj, you know, that's sus, like, famously along with that makes a bigger difference. And the nationalism thing is one of those where you just kind of wonder. I, I mean, I, I think people are, I think people are just.

I, I find it like, so odd.

But like, did you see Sean Hannity for the second time now tell everyone he's like giving up on Catholicism because the Pope was, I don't know, just saying basic Pope things, right? Like The. What do you think the vicar of Christ is going to think about war? Right. Like, he wouldn't.

He could have been more aggressive because, like, by, I don't know, quoting Jesus. So the. Those would be much more. Those would be much more problematic.

But they're more problematic precisely because how do these individuals who understand themselves as disciple of Jesus follow faithfully if their commitment to how they see people of other races or other nations is subordinate to their own identity or privilege as an American who's a Christian? Those would be more sus.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, we don't have the time today, but next time you're on, I'm going to ask a little bit, push a little bit more into this because maybe we'll have you back on December. Because it does confuse me. Like, I'm with you and all the things you say, but sometimes I get confused when I'm like, man, I agree with you.

But also I think it might be harmful to other people in our local community to have, you know, this person around who's saying these things. And I'm like, do I care more for, you know, my three black friends than I do the one racist? And I'm like, I don't actually know.

And it's most of the time people like that, if they're not in a space where it is reinforced, just like sheer social ostracization keeps them to.

Yeah.

Be quiet in a way that if they went to a church down the street where everyone agreed with them.

Gotcha.

Then, you know, they would be like, that makes sense. Well, I'm not technically a racist. I just think the Anglo inheritance of our country and our religion is superior.

Like, they'll do stuff like that, you know.

So solution is to invite all your racist friends, MAGA friends, anyone who believes in penal substitutionary atonement, to your birthday party at church. And if you have a healthy off church, maybe they'll just shut up at the very least, you know?

Yeah, but I mean, the other side is right. Like, what was the Matthew 18 thing?

Like, if you talk to them about it and stuff, you're going to treat them as if they aren't a part of the kingdom of God or a disciple. But that doesn't mean you like to. Well, therefore you should get out, you know?

Yeah, yeah. No, good stuff, good stuff.

All right, so we have a few minutes before you have to go.

Tell us what you can about theology beer camp, what kind of diversity and faith traditions might be present and where people can go to get tickets and prepare for The Zest Fest.

Well the website's theologybeer.camp or theologybeercamp.com but when we're recording this tonight we'll be announcing a bunch of the speakers. I can just list them all off and. Yeah, then you can ask about anything you want. But. So Iliadilio's coming back.

Cornell West, Gary Dorian, Bill Leonard, Diana Butler Bass, Kristen Dumay, Robbie Jones, Jamar Tisby, Angelo Parker, Jennifer Garcia Bashaw, Anna Six Bill Cynthia Schaefer, Elliot Christie Whaley, Leah Robinson, Adam Clark, Juan Floyd Thomas and Stacy Floyd Thomas and Casey Sigmund and James McGrath and Kevin Carnahan, Tom Ord, Sherry Kling, Andrew Davis, Craig Boyd, Daniel Coke, Myron Pinner, Sarah Lane, Richie Grace Gson Kim. There's. There's some others too that are such. But they'll be there. So that's a quite.

I mean you have all different parts of the church in it and I'm excited about the theme this year is the God Podcalypse. And so we'll be playing with all sorts of different post apocalyptic IP and. And so I'm, I'm excited about that. I'm trying to think.

So the October Zest which is like an Oktoberfest but with the zest. The, the host congregation has a like a giant outdoor area with like nice covered picnic tables, two fire pits and stuff like that.

So it's going to be on the, on the, on the significant zest side. Ben who ran the beer stuff last year's back and he and Bryn on the like food and drink things gonna be crazy. Like we did a.

The planning team did a site visit and stuff. So I'm super pumped.

If you mean if you know Kansas City, it is one of the barbecue capitals on planet Earth so it will be represented and, and Ben and Bryn have some really cool like food and drink pairing things planned throughout. We're bringing back the soft serve ice cream machine for high gravity stout floats and that we're gonna have a. The. The.

The stages are going to be decorated for the different post apocalyptic ip. The opening night after the thing like where we normally do karaoke. It's gonna like one of the stages.

The only one that's downstairs is going to be decorated like the upside down in Stranger Things and we're going to have a post apocalyptic prom with. So for the cosplay you could either go prom or a post apocalyptic version of prom and group karaoke on the.

Of the you know, Stranger Things 80s vibe and probably like the Electric Slide or you know things you would do at an 80s prom. So yeah, it's going to be fun.

One of the sessions I'm super excited about is Adam Clark, who y' all met before, who is one of the later students of James cone, kind of the founder of Black Liberation Theology.

He's going to be interviewing Cornel west and Gary Dorian about the legacy and thought of cone, who they both are lifelong friends with him and worked with him at Union Theological Seminary.

And so I'm super excited because that it's not only like capturing that vision but then hearing from the people that are like close friends with him throughout it. Yeah, it's going to be, it's going to be really cool. The I'm trying to think of what things I'm allowed to talk about or not.

There's some things that I'm really excited about that aren't like fully confirmed yet that I'm going to avoid saying.

But he'll text us later. Yeah.

And, and, and I know for, you know, for people to listen here that they obviously should be on the system. Also systematic ecology followers. The wan Floyd Thomas who you know, last year the Sinners panel was quite wonderful. The movie Sinners.

Juan had an idea on of doing Night of the Seven Kingdoms 1 and he gave me his pitch. It was pretty awesome. I was talking to Will about it. Nick Polk's coming this year.

So Nick, that, that means that the Tolkien session is going to be super epic. I was hoping to do a Battlestar one. You know, maybe you can talk Christian into coming because it's one of the, the factions. Yeah.

Or where you're gonna have. Last year we did a sorting hat thing where like you got put in these different houses and this year we're gonna have post apocalyptic factions.

Sweet.

Sets up for interaction stuff but that kind of connect to one different IP and one of them is the fleet, you know, like the Battlestar fleet.

Yeah, I mean it's gonna, it's fun like if you've never gone before there, I mean you also will have beer from all these different local breweries throughout the area. If you're a beer.

There's lots of other stuff too that if you don't drink beer, I mean whatever that like kombucha and wine and all these non alcoholic drinks and things. And the food stuff is getting cooler. They like Bryn was telling me I don't know how this works but like we're gonna have a hot cookie time.

I'm not exactly sure how you have hundreds of hot chocolate chip cookies at the same Time. But I was told it's not a problem. To which I'm just like, yes,.

Absolutely.

And I say that because there's always like all these different kinds of stages and opportunities and things like that.

But one of the big things of camp are having all this, all these drinks and food and stuff around and lots of spaces where if one you aren't just like, I want to go hardcore nerdy all day long, then because all these speakers are only doing one or two things, they're just kind of wandering around. There's not a place for them to hide. And they know that half of what you're supposed to do is hang out and talk to people.

So I would just say for people coming like you, you can listen to different podcasts where different people have been on and be like, oh, this person really connects with me. And then just go in saying, oh, I'm in a. I'm gonna grab Ilya.

And because I grew up Catholic, but then I had these things and she's so amazing and I'm gonna like talk to her about this or whatever. All that. All that can go down the. Which y' all might want to know this. The.

So we rent a whole bunch of Airbnbs for all these podcasters because there's like 30 podcasts that come. The big podcast house the y' all be at is super cool. It has a two story play space in it. Oh, sweet.

I think was probably designed for children, but it based off pictures on the Internet is totally been used by adults.

That's awesome.

So just saying, just saying that some of us that you know during the event do not need to be at a house that will keep you up till three in the morning because you're in charge. We'll totally be hanging out there after it.

And last year was the first time we did a big after party where all the speakers and podcasters and all the volunteers come and then whatever extra space we have, we'll sell tickets for attenders.

But I'll say that because if you are an introvert and you're like going by yourself, this event up to 80% of people that can't buy individual tickets. And it's real easy to volunteer and you'll do a couple shifts at some point, but then you'll get to meet lots of other people.

And then there's the after party where it's even easier to get to meet and hang out with the people you wanted to interact with and the venue for. It's super cool. Yeah, yeah.

And like, you know Some of us, like, the one that pays for everything, like, is the largest bar bill I've ever had before was the after party. And imagine it'll be bigger this year. So.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that, yeah, we can always do better.

For my fellow introverts out there, I feel like it's really obvious that this is fun for extroverts, so I'm not talking to them for the moment. But like, I mean, I went the first time.

Also the first time I went, I just like walked in a room and there was Trip Fuller and like, to me, I'm just like, this is like a famous author and podcaster. And I'm like. And then he's like, hey, Jock. And I didn't know that I was like on anything that first year.

And he was like, oh, you know you're doing this. I'm like, sure didn't. Will didn't tell me that just showed up.

Well, maybe he thought you wouldn't come if he told you.

Yeah, there's a chance. But like every year I've had like moments where like I'm just like hanging out.

Like I've just talked to Pete in just hanging out that first year, it was just me and him and it was like a cool, like not every moment is all the excitement.

And usually because of how people like congregate, there's like, it's almost like little introvert bubbles show up where like there's just like rooms where there's like two or three people. And I can tell like these are the other low energy people. And I'm going to, I'm gonna sneak in here and we're gonna talk and.

Have a low energy. You're selecting? Yeah, I'm like, some people get ramped up the more you're with people and others have to choose how they allocate their energy.

I go to my bubble and then charge up and then I release like, like Dragon Ball Z level energy at everybody. And then I'm drained and I have to go back to the bubble and recharge and I just do it over and over. That, that's what I do the whole time.

Okay, but the real question, the real most important question is last time TJ came because of, well, he had, he had some car issues and stuff. But then when, when we were in Springfield, he road tripped with me and Will and Nick.

Well, that's, that's what I'm trying to.

Do this year and, and that, you know, I just, I start the party three days early, you know, like, I mean, I'M not offering to pick up everyone that's listening this podcast because I'm not going to rent a.

We'll do a Facebook live.

Yeah. But I will say, like, the. There's nothing quite like the car camaraderie to get you ready. To get you ready. And I. Tj, I.

In the box of, like, stuff people have left at camp, I have a hurricane's hat that I think is probably yours that you left two years ago.

Does it have this logo on it?

Oh, it has that logo on it,.

But it's all black.

Yeah.

Yo, that's definitely mine.

There you go. Yeah. You can lose your favorite hat back for so long. I met some of my best friends currently at the Ology beer camp. Like Nick Polk.

I met him the very first day I went to a theology beer camp because me and him just tagged along to. To go to Will's house to check on a dog. And Will was like, you both, like, Lord of the Rings talk. And we did. It was great. So it's a fun time.

It's a fun time.

Thank you. Like Lord of the Rings. Until Nick starts talking to you about it and you realize you're like, I think I'm just insane.

But there's like, there's. There's layers to that. Because, like, at first you're like, wow, he knows so much. I must not be that into it. But, like, Nick is so kind.

You'll be like, I know, there's hobbits. And you're like, oh, that's the most important thing. You must be a huge fan.

And he'll, like, hype you up and make you think you're a huge Tolkien head. And you're just like, he's like a.

Youth minister for Tolkien.

It's great.

Well, if you give him half an inch, he'll give you a mile and you'll think, that's what. Yeah, that is what I meant, Nick. Exactly. I too, remember silmarilli in page 257.

But I will speak to the extroverts. Any. Any good Southern boys listen to this.

Last year in St. Paul, we had cornhole boys boards, and let me tell you, they don't know how to throw cornhole. Oh, it's a pretty good time. Me and mark flower put McGrath in. In the dirt. It was.

Is this a challenge?

It was pretty.

It's like a. Like a online on air challenge right now.

You battle. You battle most McGrath.

The McGrath.

You're just James and Alex.

Alex and James.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was me and Mark.

I Feel like you're calling them out for.

No, it's really fun.

And then once it crossed like 300 and some people, it's like impossible. But I used to get trophies made for the two winning teams and the runner up cornhole thing, you know, it's like it. You buy trophies off the Internet.

It said I almost dominated all the holes at Theology Beer Camp. And I was, I was so amused by that cornhole trophy that I just kept doing it.

So that is great.

If, you know, tj, if you, if you want to organize a tournament and then people can opt in, we could get trophies again. I'm just saying, you. We need, we need some. A former youth minister who's got like, that. The energy during the October zest to find out, like.

And the winner had like, I shucked all the competition with my corn Praise God at the Ology Beer Camp trophy. And that. That's awesome because that, that is like a conversation starter when it's on, when it's displayed at your home or your office.

They were like, what, what was Theology Beer Camp? And why were you shucking people? And you're like, I don't think that.

Might be the name of this episode. What is Theology Beer Camp? Why are we shucking people?

So, Trip, you need to leave.

Oh, yeah, I just noticed that. Thank you. I don't want to have a kid crying.

Thanks so much for helping us, man. That was fun. And I, I do look forward to beer Camp. And I'll see you before that. Probably see you for Mandalorian, I think.

All right, dude, I'll catch you later. All right, peace.

But yeah, also for our listeners, speaking of trophies, I still have 10 tiny plastic microphone trophies, and for some reason, somebody wants one. Just show up at Theology Beer Camp and I'll try to remember to bring those 10 and just give them to you. You gotta tell me my favorite number, though.

I won't tell you what it is, but it should be obvious. I feel it should be pretty clear. Yeah. Anyway, dj, let's say going to Theology Beer Camp is the practical action. Let's just go with that.

If everybody goes to Theology Beer Camp, how would that change the church, the world, the people who go trips, budget for next year, any of that?

So the budget would go up, which is a good thing.

Yeah.

More money at beer camps. Better.

More corn.

More cornhole. Better for some of us. But Beer Camp really can be A very personally affecting experience for a lot of people. And just being.

It's kind of like sneaking into the faculty meeting at a seminary. That's what it feels like.

And everyone's talking about their interests, and all of their interests are such an elevated position that you're just learning all the time. You're just constantly learning. So it's awesome you come away from beer camp. I guarantee you will learn something.

And that's, you know, I like to learn. If you don't like to learn, there's also beer. That's why it's called that. So, yeah, check it out. Yeah, check it out.

And I'll throw on there for the church.

I won't go back to my experience and say, like, I feel like this would happen to the whole church, pun intended, Was like, I remember first time I went, I was just so overwhelmed. And I still wasn't like where I was when we started this podcast, but still a lot more conservative Christian than I am now.

And I'm like, man, I am out of place with the people who are very obviously part of more progressive communities than me who identify as Christian, atheists or part of the LGBTQ community. I'm like, I'm not super comfortable. And I was like, this is going to be overwhelming, and it's going to be awful.

But instead, I had people who were helping me find space because they were like, I could tell this guy's getting socially drained. And people who were introducing me to other humans and were just kind and loving. And I was like, oh, wow.

I stumbled into one of the absolute greatest communities.

And I'm like, how could I doubt God's love for my neighbor, despite all these differences and stuff, that maybe I think is a little weird or whatever. And I think it fundamentally changed me having that experience.

And I feel like the whole church, by being around more people and seeing like, oh, yeah, loving people, and people who are loving look different, sometimes believe a little different.

Sometimes it might be a little weird and strange to you, and I think it just will impact the church if we do more events like this or more of the church. Go to events like this.

You know, you don't have to change your beliefs, but I think it'll help you realize, oh, yeah, these people are made in the image of God and having that kind of community and realizing you don't have to agree with them to have that community, it's empowering. And I think that's probably what Jesus meant when he said for his followers to be one as he and the Father Are one. Probably what he meant.

Yeah, it's really special. It's really special. So before we wrap up, we'd like to ask everyone where they've seen God in their life recently.

Whether it be blessing, challenge, motor, worse, whatever it may be, always make Joshua go first to give the rest of us plenty of time to think. So, Josh, do you have a God moment for us?

I have so many, but I've been want. I have one that I've been meaning to text TJ and I hadn't, so I'm gonna say it on air. That's what I want to do.

So when I went to Will's church, like, last week or whatever and met with some people learning about Lutheran stuff, if I want to go to seminary, ordained, like, the candidacy, I'm learning about what I need to do for that. The person who at his church just started candidacy last year.

So, I mean, with her, she's talking about, like, what all she's been through, what all I need to be prepared for and get together and, you know, whatever.

It's helpful to have someone who's just like, barely ahead of you, who just went through all the stuff, you know, me and her have two mutual Facebook friends.

Will, then Susie, our old manager, and I got to kind of hear what's been going on in Susie's life a little bit and just kind of updated and, like, man, that's just so cool. Also, I learned that Susie was apparently Lutheran, but, like, who knows?

But it was just, like, getting just that reminder of an old friend who was so kind to me and just making that connection. I was. I don't know. It was really. It was a cool God moment, you know?

Yeah, that's awesome.

For me, I don't know what the lesson is in my God moment that happens, but my mom recently qualified for disability, which means you get back paid for the entire length of time that they were like, yeah, we were wrong when we turned you down. So here's your money.

Well, that's good.

So now she.

She wants to take all of us on vacation, and she won't let us pay for it because to her, it feels like the only chance she will have had to take her family to the beach because we're poor. Poor family. By the way, Pentecostal does not mean money.

You've never mentioned that. That's a lie. But, yeah. But, yeah.

So just wrestling with that, like, should we enable this behavior? It's kind of challenging. It's also really sweet. So it's. It's a lot yeah, it's a lot. She also wants to go skydiving.

You know, I don't know. I feel like your mom's too. Too young. Tell her she has to wait till she's like, old, old. Yeah.

You have to wait until you're 70.

Yeah, yeah. Once it's like, yeah, you know, at this point, might as well. Yeah, yeah. That's me at 84. I'll do all kinds of stuff, guys.

I'm. I'm going crazy.

Yeah. At that point, I'm ready to go anyway.

I'm free jumping when I turn 80.

I don't know if I support that behavior.

Free jumping. You have a parachute?

Oh, hell yeah. That's fine. Do it. Yeah.

Bass jumping. So if you like this episode, please consider sharing with a friend. Share with an enemy.

Share with your cousins, especially your cousins who are enemies. You'll need to reconcile, Especially now's the time. Especially reconcile at Theology beer Camp.

Right. You should also consider going to our website, purchasing one of our T shirts. It promotes the show.

It helps us raise money for needs podcasting needs specifically lets others know about the importance of our mission to educate and unite the modern church. There's a lot of options. My personal favorite is, of course, the TJ quote on the back. It says nothing on the back.

Still. It's great. Still a great bit. Yeah, it's a great bit.

Also, I usually wear like a second layer. I don't like just wearing a shirt, so most people don't see the back of my shirt anyway.

That's fair. I don't.

Saving the planet.

I don't usually wear two. Two layers. But if you do, we have hoodies too. It works. I think there's a zip up hoodie, maybe. Who knows?

But I do know you should check out some of the other shows on the Onslaught podcast network, like the homily with Pastor Chill Will from Chapel Hill, Systematic Ecology with me and TJ and my seminary life with Brandon Knight, and let nothing move you with Christian Ashley. Check them all out. There's others too.

Check them all out.

Yeah, Theology on the rocks. They're going to be at Theology be Camp too, so check them out.

Yeah, they are. And when Tripp said people who should not be up until three in the morning because they're hanging out the coolest Airbnb, he meant Leah.

That's who he's talking about.

That's true.

So we hope you enjoyed the show. Coming up, we'll be interviewing Chantal Morehouse McKinney about her new book, Following Jesus beyond church walls.

Then we'll be having another round table discussion on evangelism, mission work and other means of outreach.

After that, we plan to take a short break for a week or two and then begin a series on the behind the scenes of ministry, from the local church to publishing worship. We who knows? We could do anything.

I don't know yet.

Architecture.

So I know y' all don't know.

Bell ringing. We go to Notre Dame.

Yeah, we could. At the end of season one of.

The series season, possibly for episode A thousand, we might try to make that happen. Francis Chan will be on the show.