If you asked an academic to describe the culture in which they work, 'gentle' is not a word that most would use. But what if academia could be gentler? What would this look like, and how can we get there?

In today's episode, host Taryn Bell is joined by Christine Grove, co-editor of the recent volume 'The Gentle Academic'. They discuss what gentle academia is, what it's not, and how both individuals and academics can become 'gentler' in their ways of working. Far from offering 'lip service' to the idea of culture change, The Gentle Academic offers actionable insights for both individuals and the institutions they work within.

Want to learn more?

• Read The Gentle Academic: Reimagining the Contemporary University Culture with Principles of Community, Leadership, and Care
• Get in touch with Christine via LinkedIn or her RMIT and Monash webpages, or with her co-editor, Kelly-Ann Allen

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Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be. You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you wanted to be.

Despite the many improvements that we've seen in research cultures in recent years, there aren't that many people who would currently describe academia as gentle in any way. For many of those working in academia, they might use a different word. Competitive, high pressure, even maybe toxic. But gentle? Less so.

But what if we were to envisage a gentler academia? What would that look like in practice? What impact would that have on the sector and how can we make this happen? I'm thrilled to be joined today by Dr. Christine Grove, co-editor of the recent volume, "The Gentle Academic". Christine is an Associate Professor in the Department of Health Sciences at RMIT University in Australia, and an Adjunct Associate Professor at Monash University. She's an educational and developmental psychologist and Fulbright Scholar. So welcome to the podcast, Christine.

Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

So could you explain to our listeners what you mean by 'gentle academia'?

Yeah, absolutely.

Um, so it's interesting that, um, we talk about that word gentle. I think sometimes it can often be associated with being soft or weak. Um, but really the gentle academic isn't really about lowering our standards at all in the academy. Um, it's much more about how we actually pursue being successful in the jobs that we have, whether it's research or education, and it really is based in, um, rigour.

Our approach that we, we came to for the book was really looking at how we can bring in that sustainability across careers and across different career stages, as well as personal life stages too, but then also bringing in an element of care into, into that practice over a really long period of time. Um, in our, in our book, we really talk a bit more about how we can produce.

You know, world class research, um, but without normalizing, feeling exhausted, being really competitive at all costs or even to, you know, the dissatisfaction of, of many people as well. So really it's trying to move away from a culture of only, you know, being successful in terms of pressure and metrics only, but maybe looking at it more from a perspective of purpose, um, and what might bring you into the academy as well.

Yeah, absolutely. And I really like that way of framing gentle as sustainable, because I think most people would probably agree that the way academia has what we say traditionally been is not sustainable for many people. You know, we know that there are record levels of burnout in academics, particularly post pandemic, some of those pressures seem to have got gotten even worse. So what was the impetus behind the development of the book?

The book really emerged during, uh, you know, point of tension for myself that I was feeling and experiencing, and particularly during the pandemic and then, and then afterwards, and then also hearing from our colleagues globally and, and internationally just around, um, managing the values of being an academic and, and what brought them into the academy, whether it was curiosity or care or impact too for the different fields that folks are in. Um, and then managing that with a really high pressured situation that's really metric driven, um, that we all work within, within that system.

Um, and so while we were, I was experiencing that and really feeling that, that experience in the academy as I was progressing in my career, I also then started increasingly seeing colleagues and really talented researchers, especially early career researchers, just getting burnt out and then leaving the profession.

I also started experiencing a lot of incredible professors who were having gems and pearls of wisdom, leaving the profession too, and also feeling really burnt out. So we were seeing sort of not a mass exodus, but a lot of folks feeling really exhausted and burnt out by the system.

Um, and so that led us, led myself and Kelly to look at, well, you know, what can we do that's different? Is there another way? What would this actually look like? Um, and so the book. Gave us, you know, space to be able to do that. Um, over the last two years, we've been actually working on it for a while. Um, and we really thought to ourselves and, and in conversations and discussion with colleagues, well what would the academy look like if we designed it, um, around being sustainable, around there being excellence within that framework rather than all of us just trying to survive as we go day by day.

Um, and I think when we hear the word gentle, it sounds like you're doing less. Then, but actually it just means maybe we're more intentional. Um, another, another factor in that too, um, Taryn that that also happened was I started taking on substantial caregiving responsibilities as well.

And that really sharpened my lens into thinking what kind of academic culture am I normalizing? What kind of, you know, contribution I having to the field where I'm actually contributing to this culture of. Um, normalizing, you know, over, over doing it a lot as well. And so it really gave me an opportunity to, to reflect on my contribution to, to the system as well.

Yeah. And the book is just packed full of like really useful insights.

I mean that as, as you've, you've touched on overwork. There, there's a whole chapter about how engaging in overwork legitimizes that culture of overwork. And as I was, I remember as I was reading that chapter, I was thinking, oh my goodness, I wish I could, I wish I could give this to everyone to read. I think it's, there's so much in there to take away from it.

Um, so you've, you've touched a couple of times on the fact that gentle academia does not mean soft. It, it doesn't mean lowering our standards because I think, and, and I heard this when I was a researcher, there are some who, who kind of argue that academia thrives on competition. Academia thrives on being difficult for people.

I know when I did my PhD, an academic told me that "that's the point. We're meant to break you down so we can build you back up better". So what would you say to those, those kind of critics who say that actually competition is good for us? It helps us maintain high standards?

So it's so interesting because I had a really similar experience as well.

Um, I was also advised that, you know, illness is not gonna prevent you from, uh, is not gonna help you get your PhD. No one cares. You've just gotta sort of, you know, put your head in the sand and get it done no matter what kind of illness you might have. And it was at the time, I, I didn't really think it should be true.

Surely not, you know? Um, and so I think we, we've driven by a history in, in the academy of very traditional frameworks of, and ways of doing things. Um, and it's been like that a really long time. So what I've noticed is a lot of folks have been kind of trained in a certain way and then they pass that kind of training on without stopping and, and questioning it.

Or they, they can't question it because the system that they're in doesn't allow for those conversations or allow for looking at a different way of being a leader or a mentor within that space. Um, so I agree competition can absolutely drive innovation and new ideas. But only up to a certain point. Um, we get to a point where it's just becomes too much.

And we, and we do see things like burnout and folks leaving the profession, but the evidence is increasingly showing us that chronic competition can actually undermine creativity, can undermine new ideas and collaboration. And also, as we know, wellbeing and mental health. So for us, it's, it's, you know, in, in the book we ask the question almost in, in all of the chapters.

It's not about whether we have standards, but it's about how can the system support us that we've already built and how can we sort of challenge those systems to then be able to achieve goals with purpose where we are not feeling burnt out. Um, so in the gentle academic, we're sort of suggesting different ways that we can challenge that environment, maybe change those environments so people can still do their best work, but not trying to just survive in the process of doing that as well. So we, we don't think, and we suggest in the book that you don't need exhaustion as well to be successful. But, you know, healthy competition's great and we talk about that.

But obviously within, um, within reason.

As you are a researcher who works on mental health and wellbeing, do you think this has given you a kind of heightened awareness of the impact of academic culture on, on wellbeing generally in the sector?

Yeah. Um, absolutely. I mean, I've seen colleagues go through so many different challenges and, and not feel supported, uh, in the system that they're working in, whether it's personal or professional.

So it's definitely been across the board and maybe 'cause Kelly's also a psychologist. Our, our co-editor is also sensitive to that and maybe more aware of the impact that the system can have on the individual too, and sort of not only focusing on the individuals only being the sole protector of their wellbeing that they trying to function within a set of KPIs or expectations, you know, to be successful in their job as well.

So I think, you know, the Academy has changed a little bit. It's allowed a book like this in the first place. I mean, it's, to be honest, to be, be able to be here on this podcast and having this conversation, um, shows that we are looking for change and I think the pandemic opened up the opportunity to look at different ways of working.

Um, I also think that folks are wanting to be more connected now as well, um, but they're also still feeling really pressured. So I think we picked up on those cues. And we saw that, okay, if we're not gonna suggest a different way of doing it, when, when will it happen? Um, and how can we be part of that cycle of change rather than potentially normalizing and contributing to a toxic culture of overworking.

Yeah, definitely. And, and I think as well, I think it can be very easy to feel like you have no choice in the matter, that you just have to keep up with the culture and, and put up with it. I've seen plenty of people leave because they just say, it's not right for me. I can't handle this. I can't hack it.

When actually, maybe the problem is not the problem system happen. So, what have you personally learned from the process of editing this volume? Have you changed your own practice any, in any way? Is there anything, in any of the many chapters in the book that made you think, oh, wow, yeah, I need to do that differently, or, or, I hadn't considered that at all?

Um, I think for, for me, it's helped me be incredibly reflective in this process. Um, and just really respect my colleagues, different perspectives coming, coming onto the book. Um, and, you know, more than just different writing styles and different time zones, but for me it was being really intentional about how we led the book, really intentional around, you know, how we then collaborated with colleagues and, and what they also felt comfortable sharing within the, within the capabilities as well.

And then it has informed now how I lead and, and mentor in my day-to-day practice. I try, it's so hard to try and embody some of those principles that we do talk about in the book, but I think, you know, uh, we talk about a lot that we can start really small. You can start with, you know, your team that you work with, being aware of their struggles they may be going through or where they might need more support or need breaks.

Um, and I think it's, it's really about carefully pacing yourself within, within this as well, um, within the academy and over time. And so doing the book and then as well as taking on these, uh, caring responsibilities. It really did help me see that it is about creating space for myself in the academy that's safe and able to do great work, but then also for my colleagues, um, and students as well where they can feel safe to think and process and also then perform, um, within that framework as well.

Um, so it's really, you know, I felt that I'm not doing less work, but I'm being more mindful about the work that I'm doing, um, and I'm doing things a little bit differently and it feels a little bit more sustainable. So in this process, I've learned so much from suggestions from my colleagues as well, you know, just through some of those chapters that I've never even thought about too.

Um, and even, even small things around having on your email signature that you might get an email from me out of hours, but I have caring responsibilities, so therefore this is actually the best time that I can get some of this work done. Don't feel pressured to reply at this time or scheduling your emails to, you know, working hours for most people.

So if those are really small considerations, um, that I think I've learned during this process that I've taken on now into my practice as well, to be considerate. People's weekends or you know, people's holidays, um, and being mindful of them about how I'm engaging and contributing to the hamster wheel as well.

I think one of the things I've had to understand is that I'm one of those people who's very nine to five. I'm in the office, nine to five. Those are the hours I like to work, and I used to really hate it when I'd get emails from people that have been clearly sent very late at night, but it's taken me a while to realize, actually it's none of my business.

I know I'm not gonna answer it until nine. They can work on the hours that work for them. 'cause some people might be a night owl and might want to work, you know, 12 to 8 or something like that. Um, whereas before I kind of saw it as this blanket, no, you've gotta email nine to five. 'cause those are office hours.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think one of the things I really like about the book is that you don't just talk about the problems you offer. In every chapter of the book, there are clear solutions. What's that done in mind when you wrote the book in the first place?

Absolutely it was, um, it was, we, we had a, a loose structure for all the chapters.

It was to highlight, um, our experiences as well as what the literature is saying on, on each, on each, um, principle. And then to give really strategic thought out examples that might be relayed to the person specific context, um, that they're working in and their country too, because we, you know, international folks as part of the book as well.

And so it absolutely was intentional to have in their strategies for each chapter because we. Well, you know, it's all great and very well to say, let's do this. Let's have these great values. It can feel a little bit like lip service and also preaching to people who are actually going through really stressful, high pressured roles that are really toxic environments and telling them to.

Oh, well, you know, "just be gentle about it and be kind to people or you know, keep working really hard, but make sure you get a lunch break" was not gonna suffice in a book like this. We felt we needed to be, um, really real about where the Academy is currently and what's happening to people, really talented researchers and academics.

And then what are some genuine ways that we can address. Some of these challenges and, you know, some really practical strategies in there to, to go and start, even if it is really small, like I was saying before, start small, start local. It isn't about this grand gesture of being this like incredibly kind, gentle academic who has these really strict boundaries.

Um, for us it was much more around, you know, everyday practices. What works for you? Um, how do you give feedback even? How do you receive feedback? Um, how are you in emails? How do you collaborate? Um, that for us was really important about giving folks permission to maybe put those boundaries in their, in their day-to-day practices.

Um, and hopefully seeing that being sustainable and being kind with yourself and others isn't a weakness and kind of really putting that. Out there that this is a foundation from for long-term impact. Putting it out there that actually we we're suggesting that this could mean that we have great scholars in the profession longer doing brilliant work, who feel resourced, who don't feel burdened, um, if we do take some of these steps.

I think there is something there in providing options, providing examples for people that feel actually doable. Also meaningful at the same time that feel like they are going to genuinely make a difference to their own working environment and the environment they're creating around them.

You also talk in a book about the tension between individual researchers who want change and the system level barriers that get in the way of this. And as part of this, in one of the final chapters of the book, you develop a policy for institutions to implement a more gentle academia. However, you know, you talk yourself about how cultural change is really slow, particularly at the institutional level.

So how do we ensure that senior management in universities and in higher education institutions aren't just paying lip service to these ideas?

It's a tension that we, Kelly and I grapple with, um, because cultural change is slow as well. Um, and it really comes down, you know, in my opinion, around alignment.

Do you feel that your institutions taking your time seriously? Is it actually wanting to create non-toxic work environments and receive feedback and reflect on those environments and do better? Um, I think why? It can be challenging is that we are measured, basically and rewarded only for what is measured in impact with publications, grants, and funding.

And we don't really recognize other areas like mentoring or collaboration and, and leadership as well with within groups, maybe not a formal leadership role, but how are we leading teams, um, as well, informally. And so it's, need to hold leaders accountable for some of the cultures that they create and they continue to create and that they're maintaining. Um, it's, you know, it's really hard to come in and, and try and change a space or, you know, community, which has been really traditionally run sort of in an ivory white ivory tower scenario.

And so I think. We need to have some structural alignment around some of these ideas. Um, to be able to then commit to more sustained change that impacts individuals positively. It's, it's gonna be a longer journey. We need to start somewhere. Um, but I'm hoping that as we see new leaders come through or even.

Leaders wanting to change their styles and, and look at different ways of bleeding in the academy. Hopefully we'll see institutions taking a book like this seriously, um, and, and look to, and look at ways of supporting their schools to be able to do some of these approaches as well. We, you know, we are looking at getting a PhD student to work on some of this work as well, just to look around some of the evidence as well about sustained long-term impact.

Um, what difference, if you do have a focus such as a gentle academy in your faculty and you have a leader who has the and embodies these skills, and what would that look like and what would that mean? So we're hoping to bring more evidence to the space, um, as well, more than just principles and ideas and values.

That, that folks can connect to and that you can only individually do or have a policy, you know, to inform next steps and practice. But we're also wanting to look at more evidence around this too, to, to stand strongly on some of these ideas that we put forward in the book.

So with that in mind, then. If someone is listening to this episode and thinks, oh, this sounds like something that I'd like to get involved in, this sounds like something that I'd like to do.

Where do you recommend individual listeners start on their own journey to becoming a gentle academic besides obviously reading the book?

Um, yeah, absolutely. I think, um. You know, the idea that we put forward in the book around all the suggestions was to move to translation. So moving into practice, like, how can we actually do this?

Um, I think, you know, it's, it's so tricky if you're in a very toxic environment. I think reaching out to peers and colleagues who might be in a similar circumstance and collaboration and support within that would be really beneficial and helpful, just where you can share ideas and support around some of the, the challenging circumstances it could be in.

Um, but I know that, for example, for us, we're, we're really working hard on, well, if we have this policy and some of these practices. Um, you know, what can we actually do to build a long-term sustainable community around some of this work that then we do see informed and enforced as well, um, and seen as, you know, something to reward that you do see in the academy.

So I think people are ready for change. They're asking for it. Um, it's been positively received as well, um, by, you know, a range of different types of leaders and folks with expertise, um, as well. So I think, you know, be on the right side of history. You know, I think if you get. Feel like you're isolated and alone connecting with at least one other colleague, um, or connecting with Kelly and I as well.

We're more than happy to, you know, chat with folks and, and hear from people, um, around their circumstances and, and be a part of the next stage of the gentle academic as well.

So you've talked a little bit about the fact that this, this work is ongoing. So what's next for your work on Gentle Academia?

Yeah. Um, hopefully we'll be looking at some more tools that we can use that are practical, embedded in a framework from the principles. Um, so at this stage, they do, they do feel much more value driven and purposeful and intentional in that way. Um, so how would it actually look practically in, you know, a top high functioning university that's highly competitive?

Um, and then how do you, you see that kind of trickle down in terms of behaviour and policy and, um, and support for, for our colleagues? So at this stage we we're definitely looking at a Volume Two, um, as well within having a PhD scholar support this work and, and do some of the research around it. Um, and we also are looking at collaborators too overseas where this work might have resonated with them, um, who already are in a bit of a community who are embedded and using these principles already day to day.

You know, we, we'd love to hear from you or folks who even are wanting to change. The system that they're in or the leadership that they're in and are leading themselves and, and would like to do things differently, um, to maybe how they were trained or what they experienced, um, would absolutely love to hear from you and, and be a part of the next volume of work that comes through.

I think the diversity of voices is really important. I think we think hearing from others and other viewpoints around this work's really important and, um. Sure stating the challenges, but you know, let's look at some solutions going forward and, and what we can do to work together to address really in, in our opinion, a wicked problem, um, in the academy.

That, that needs a lot of change and a lot of work. Um, and I don't blame, you know, one person. Where we're at currently. It's definitely a system that's thrived and been successful so far in doing it this way. So why would you change it? Why would you seek a different way of doing things? Um, and that ruffles people's feathers too, can make people feel nervous and, you know, you're pulling the rug from under them, for example.

Um, and so we're open to all of those kinds of conversations and dialogues and wanting to make the space more inclusive for all voices. Um, rather than it being, you know, kind of historically set up for one type of voice as well. So, please get in touch with us too, um, if you would like to space well.

That seems a really nice place to leave it.

Thank you so much, Christine, for sharing your expertise and your experience. It's been an absolute pleasure and it's been really lovely to hear about the impetus behind the book and the impact that it's already started to have. If you'd like to read the Gentle Academic, we've put a link to the book in the show notes.

I thoroughly recommend it because as I've said already, it's not just packed full of insights. It's also packed full of actionable things that you can do to help you and your institution develop a gentler academia. So thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next week for another episode of Research Culture Uncovered.

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