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(Episode 93) The Power of Community: Navigating Research Impact with the Impact Clinic

Research Impact Episode 93 • 6th November 2024 • Research Culture Uncovered • Research Culturosity, University of Leeds

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be. You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Ged Hall: 00:00:23

Welcome. My name is Ged Hall and I'm an Academic Development Consultant for research impact at the University of Leeds.

All of the episodes I contribute to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast focus on some aspects of research impact, and they're all available via a playlist, which is in the show notes. Now today, I'm going back to focus on a particular workshop that I attended at the recent Network for Advancing and Evaluating the Societal Impact of Science.

ersity College Dublin in June: 2024

The first was the title. Impact Clinic. Now, I love a bit of problem solving, so this sounded right up my street. And the second were the people running it. So that's Giovanna Lima, Esther de Smet, and Áine Mhic Thaidhg. There you go, my Irish ancestors will be going, you got that wrong. I'd followed and appreciated the work of all of them via LinkedIn and other online routes, but I'd never met any of them.

So it seemed a perfect opportunity to solve that. Giovanna works at the Erasmus University in Rotterdam. And works with impact in research, engagement, and education. She works with individuals, projects, and institutionally across those areas. She's also an impact associate ambassador for the EU funded RM Roadmap project that aims to co create the future of research management across Europe.

Welcome Giovanna.

Giovanna Lima: 00:02:11

Thanks a million for having me. It's so good to be in this Zoom room together. Uh, and yeah, do you want me to jump in and share a little bit about the RM Roadmap? Because I don't know if the listeners are aware of it.

Ged Hall: 00:02:24

Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that before we, before we move on.

Giovanna Lima: 00:02:28

Yeah, so the RM Roadmap indeed wants to, um, discuss what we are and who we are as research managers and along with the Cardea project, establish a framework for skills, competences and have more clarity around our careers as, uh, research managers.

So we just finished the second co creation session before summer. There are 32 consensus documents. So we have national documents and also thematic community documents. That's a really, it's a wealth of information. You can all go to the road, RM Roadmap website, and it will be in the show notes because you will put it there.

Thank you for doing that. And then there's also an online dashboard where RMAs can find a lot of training that is available. So I thought that was really useful to mention to you. And then finally, the plug, uh, to invite everyone to join the Impact, uh, co creation session that will commence on the 14th of November.

So I already give a plug now, uh, and maybe we can give it again. And from the 14th of November until December, we will be collecting Impact. Um, related questions. So if the community can join us in that, that's great. Thanks so much. Good to be here. Thanks.

Ged Hall: 00:03:38

Yeah, sure. We'll put that in the show notes too. And, um, you also released an impact evaluation toolbox, didn't you?

t strategy and has been since: 2013

She's been heavily involved in the international impact community. I mean, I've seen a name around for years, so yeah, that's. That's definitely true from the very earliest days of research impact, becoming part of our lexicon through her work with organisations such as, and this is where you were testing, whether I can actually rhyme some of this off.

International Network of Research Management Societies. or INORMS, European Association of Research Managers and Administrators or EARMA and the Center for Advancing Research Impact in Society. That's the hard one. If you have to slow down or ARIS in the USA, amongst other things. So Esther, welcome. Lovely to meet you at last.

Esther de Smet: 00:04:56

Oh, thanks, Ged. Um, it's, it's great to be here. I always love sharing, um, kind of my my quest for impact across the world. So especially from the very small Flanders area in Belgium, uh, which isn't that much on the map when it comes to impact.

Ged Hall: 00:05:15

Surely not. Yeah, of course it is. Um, and Esther, you've got You're involved in the ENLIGHT Impact Conference next year, I think Áine is too, is that right?

Esther de Smet: 00:05:24

Yes, yes, we're both members of the Impact Task Force of ENLIGHT. And so maybe for your listeners, let me just explain what ENLIGHT is before giving some details on that conference. The European Commission has been developing this idea of European University Alliances. The idea is to, to foster collaboration between higher education institutions within Europe, mainly, uh, for teaching, for research, uh, on the level of individuals.

So think joint applications for Horizon Europe, joint teaching programs, students, researcher mobility, things like that. Uh, but also on the level of. policy and support within those institutions. And that's, that's how I met Áine as well. Um, one of those university alliances, which has been formally recognised, um, is ENLIGHT, which stands for, and now I'm the one having a tongue twister, European University Network to promote Equitable, quality of life, sustainability, and global engagement through higher education transformation.

Yes, we do like our acronyms, don't we? Um, Ghent University, where I work, is one of the 10 members, and so is Galway, uh, where Áine works. And impact is at the core of the mission of ENLIGHT. And as such, one of the main objectives is to promote and impact literate research cultures within all partners. For that purpose, we have jointly developed a number of initiatives, for example, a repository of international good practices on research impact, impact awards, and a network of impact ambassadors, and a self assessment toolkit, which kind of gauges your impact readiness as an institution or a research group even, uh, we also have a train the trainer programme and many more things.

ual impact conference. And in: 2025

So hope to see you there, Ged.

Ged Hall: 00:07:57

I'll see if I can get the funding for it. That'll be fun. Yeah. Brilliant. So Áine, I'm going to have another go at your surname, at your surname. Um, the really tough one. So Áine Mhic Thaidhg. She's looking happier. done.

Áine Mhic Thaidhg: 00:08:12

It's close. It's very close.

Ged Hall: 00:08:14

Oh, I'll take that. I'll take that. Uh, so Áine is the sole research impact officer at the University of Galway, where she leads the development and implementation of the university strategy to embed a culture of research impacts across its academic schools and research units.

She also manages the impact components of the Institutional Review. of Research Performance or IRRP. Do you use that acronym? IRRP?

Áine Mhic Thaidhg: 00:08:41

Yeah, we do.

Ged Hall: 00:08:42

I got, in a previous episode, I got told off for kind of going IRRP equivalent when it should have been said as a and I was like, Oh, do you say IRRP?

Áine Mhic Thaidhg: 00:08:56

It could be handy.

Ged Hall: 00:08:58

Yeah, maybe some of your academics call it that. Yeah. Um, so that's Galway's regular process for assessing its research quality through external peer review. So in that IR, IRRP, Áine orchestrates the development of compelling research impact case studies and showcases the university's contributions to science.

Um, We've mentioned the ENLIGHT, so you're heavily involved in in that, and you also run regular impact seminars, which Esther and Giovanna contributed to, and they're all available online and you'll be able to give us the links to those for the show notes, won't you, Áine?

Áine Mhic Thaidhg: 00:09:36

I will, indeed. Thank you, Ged, for the lovely introduction.

I suppose, just to highlight in terms of the IRRP, it's, you know, we're the only institution actually south of the border that are carrying out this type of assessment, so it's a really valuable thing to be a part of. I suppose one thing I wanted to highlight maybe about my own role is, you know, as the first impact officer.

I began in the role in early: 2020

But since then, thankfully, because the years have passed, we've made significant strides in doing that and fostering this culture. So we launched our Research Impact Toolkit back in 2021. Since then, we've developed, you know, a tailored Research Impact Training Programme. And of course, produce really high quality impact case studies that showcase and celebrate the valuable contributions of our work to society, you know, which is a huge part of the work that I do, but I think for me, you know, one of the most rewarding aspects of the role is the impact community.

So, although I mentioned, I'm the sole impact officer in the university, which can be a little lonely. I have a whole network of, and community out there of impact experts. Um, so I absolutely love the fact that I can collaborate with the likes of Esther here in Giovanna, um, you know, we get to meet up at the various impact conferences, um, AESIS and the ENLIGHT, uh, next year.

Um, so it's, it's really a great role to be in.

Ged Hall: 00:11:21

Yeah, it is. Um, a lot of our, um, in the UK, a lot of the smaller institutions, you know, Colleagues there who might say, you know, I'm the only person and it's, uh, that's stretching, it's lonely, it's, uh, who's my, who are my mates essentially in the institution, um, because sometimes it can feel, um, feel that you're fighting a lone battle.

And, um, and I think, you know, glad, glad you pointed out that actually you're not, if you reach out into the community internationally.

Áine Mhic Thaidhg: 00:11:55

Yeah, that's right.

Ged Hall: 00:11:56

Brilliant. So let's, uh, let's try and get back onto that fascinating impact clinic, which I actually loved being part of. It was so much, first of all, fun.

Um, I found it usually collegiate as well, um, which is something that we strive for in terms of research culture and sometimes fail miserably to deliver as a sector. Um, and. The other thing that struck me was, is it was hugely efficient. So fun and efficiency don't often go together. You know, sometimes when we're, um, when we're thinking about those sorts of things, we kind of try and push fun out of the way to be more efficient.

So that was, that was also a brilliant, I think, coming together of lots of, a really brilliant idea that, uh, because it helped work on a load of challenges and a really compressed time. So. without me telling everybody how it felt, because it's, you know, it's not my idea. I'd love to have had it actually.

Thanks. Um, but you know, I didn't. Um, so maybe if you can describe for the listeners, um, what it, what it feels like and what it looks like and how it works as a participant in, uh, in an impact clinic.

Esther de Smet: 00:13:10

Yes. Well, I'll jump in. Um, first of all, thank you that you've enjoyed it so much. That was. Essentially the plan for people to enjoy it and you, you've hit the nail on the head, fun and efficient, but also, uh, informative, uh, I guess.

And so maybe just before, uh, Giovanna and Áine give, give a bit more explanation about how to run an impact clinic, um, how did the idea come about, um, because that will also shed a light on its main characteristics. And, and. What to look for if you would try it yourself and try it out in your institution.

Um, yes, your listeners might have picked up that I've been active in the impact arena for a while now, um, which means I have attended countless conferences, workshops, webinars, first as an attendee, but later and gradually as a speaker, and I'm sure many of us. Um, have been in that situation as, as, as well and have under, I, I, I feel like you undergo this transformation of being content with picking up, uh, and later on also sharing as much as, uh, as much information and good practices as we can and, and also looking forward to meeting new and old colleagues.

It becomes. Like you said, this collegial thing that you, you, you even, you become friends in, in that impact, uh, work. But after an AESIS meeting in Cardiff, that itch to, to bring that experience to a next level began. Um, I began wondering how we could turn some of my conference frustrations, um, sitting through endless one sided presentations with the best intentions, um, by people who seem to have cracked all the challenges again.

We need them to, um, sometimes a lot of, um, excuse me, Ged, but. older white men, um, and with very limited time for discussion and interaction, which also I understand, but I, I, I kind of felt that hunger. And, um, and so also my own sense of giving something back to the community, more than just the presentation and a best practice, tapping into that collective wealth of knowledge and experience into something constructive, something which gives positive energy, which we need so much.

And especially because so many of the impact professionals are a team of one. And luck would have it that I found people where it wasn't luck. You create your luck. Sometimes I found people who were equally crazy to indulge me and this idea and had their own ideas. Which brought it into this amazing thing and AESIS Dublin, that became our first test case.

So I think also a big thank you to Annika, who allowed us just to do our thing.

Ged Hall: 00:16:13

That's Annika who leads AESIS, isn't it? Yes.

Giovanna Lima: 00:16:16

Yeah, she does. And I still remember that Brainstorm meeting about the impact clinic, like it was yesterday. It was such a. Great meeting the three of us with Esther being our ringleader with an idea of creating this safe space.

But what would that safe space look like? And the three of us just jumping ideas around. And then maybe I can tell everyone where we landed. So the clinic in AESIS and the model, uh, I've already tested again. And so we will keep evolving the model, but the model, uh, basically facilitates the conversation between the participants and they have so much knowledge and wealth that we as impact nurses, as we called ourselves, since you're coming to a clinic, um, have not necessarily too much to do.

But the setting is like this. Uh, you invite people into the room, explain what they're up to so they don't necessarily know too much that they will be troubleshooting each other's problems. So we introduced the clinic, um, which is everyone gets a challenge card. Uh, you get to write your challenge. That means that, uh, you have a paper slip.

So in terms of preparation for the clinic, you do have to prepare the paper slip for people to write on. Uh, so everyone comes into the room, you get a paper slip that's called challenge card. You explain that you're going to troubleshoot that challenge in small groups. Then, uh, you give people time to write their challenges.

And what happens next is just people troubleshooting challenges. So, and then I think that's the difference that I really want to bring in terms of, uh, the first model and the previous, the next one, the amount of rounds you have. So everyone gets to be both a nurse and a patient. So that's the first great thing about the model.

So everyone troubleshoots everyone's problem and everyone gets a chance to have their problem troubleshooted. And, uh, the second thing, so the second thing then is that you're not alone in troubleshooting each other's problems. There's a small group with you. So if you don't necessarily have had experience with that, don't worry because other people will have.

And the third thing is that it doesn't matter where in the research lifecycle you work in because the type of challenges that come up, uh, they're, um, We all face them, uh, even if you're pre award, post award, et cetera. So let me try to summarise it again. If I don't know if I was too clear, people come into the room, they get a paper that says, uh, challenge card.

They write down the challenge. They, then we allow people to go into rounds of challenge solving. So that's the beauty of it. Uh, there is a structure time, which I think is where it makes it efficient. So we give, we time people because we like to talk a lot, like I am doing right now. Um, so. We time people.

You have three minutes to share your challenge. People have three minutes to write their prescriptions. So second thing that you need to prepare is prescription pads or prescription cards, as you want to call them, uh, for people to write down. So we need, we do Give some time for the doctors and nurses in the room to write down some of their thoughts before reacting.

So that's that is also an inclusive element of the clinic, because not everyone can just quickly react. But if you give them time to think about it, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's this, there's that. They can write it down and then also then give the prescription to the patient. And after that individual time of three minutes, then you have a round of discussion.

And that is the time that changes. So in AESIS, we had more time than I had at ARMA when I ran the clinic again. So that's, um, that's why the model is also flexible. So you can change the size of the groups and you can change the time of the rounds to make it adaptable to different situations. So you, in terms of preparation, you have some slides, uh, If you are like us, crazy enough to wear a nurse, uh, tiara, you can do that.

Yes, yes, we did wear nurse tiaras, um, and then challenge pads and prescription pads for people to write on. That's it, basically, because, uh, everything that happens, it's on the participants and it's a lot of fun. Professionals like ourselves who like to have fun, who like to troubleshoot each other's problems because we have been doing this, uh, on our bootstraps and connecting with people.

So, I don't know, it's stepping into the authentic reality of what RMAs and impact professionals are like.

Ged Hall: 00:20:47

Brilliant. Thank you for that. And, um, I think we've probably gone into a lot of this, but, um, what, what is it that you feel is different about this approach? You know, you've kind of segued it against, um, [00:21:00] old white gits like me, um, talking, uh, in a very boring voice at the front.

Um, so that's, thank you very much for that. I must try and remember never to do that in a, um, In an impact session that I'm leading.

Esther de Smet: 00:21:14

That's what you made of it, Ged .

Ged Hall: 00:21:17

Yes. I, I, I know I was, I was gonna try and deflect it by going, I apologise on behalf of all my older colleagues.

Esther de Smet: 00:21:25

Excellent. .

Ged Hall: 00:21:27

But, uh, but I forgot to say that now.

Nevermind. But what, what is it that you, if you can crystallize, what is it that you. Um, is different about this. And, and, you know, I've said it was fast, efficient, um, and fun. But, you know, what were you aiming for?

Áine Mhic Thaidhg: 00:21:44

I might could jump in here, I suppose. Yeah, to crystallise it, I think, you know, Esther, Esther touched on it, you know, unlike more formal engagement methods, ultimately, it fosters this collaborative environment, you know, where participants can contribute equally.

Everyone's voice is valued. Everyone's voice is encouraged. I think that's the, that's the main thing, really, and it shifts the focus. So it's less about presenting, but more about working together on tangible outcomes. So it's, it's a solution driven method. It's, it's refreshing from what we see at other conferences, um, provides participants with really concrete takeaways they can apply in their own work.

And I think for all of us, you know, These are the conversations that we're having at coffee and lunch breaks at these conferences that prove to be really valuable.

Ged Hall: 00:22:33

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it kind of, kind of reminds me, that kind of reminds me about a little piece that Tamika Heiden and I put together some time ago for the LSE Impact blog, um, that, Impact expertise is a is a collective construct.

It isn't an individual. Almost an individual's expertise is not enough to really be able to solve all the challenges that come with research impact. So you do need that extensive network to help you kind of just be, um, the conduit of all of that expertise into into and out of your institution as well.

You know, and it isn't to say that, uh, you know, a particular institution is any better than another at generating that knowledge. So I thought that, that, yeah, it really resonated with the, you know, the thoughts we were trying to express in, in that, uh, in that blog. Um, so I think we should try and give, um, I mean, obviously our, uh, our listeners can't be active participants in an impact clinic with us right now, um, because they're not here on this Zoom call, but shall we try and give them a flavour for how it operates?

Esther de Smet: 00:23:51

Yeah, I think yes, you didn't bring our tiaras this time, so just imagine them and imagine yourself in our kind of treatment room. So welcome everyone. Um, just make yourselves comfortable. And, um, the idea is also that not everyone. one needs to talk. If you're a patient that just wants to listen and take in the experience of everyone else, that's fine as well.

But the nurses are here, the doctors are here to guide you through that. Um, so the idea is that you write down your challenge, something that you face within your work as an impact professional. And, um, Take some time to think about that. And we, of course, as in almost in Blue Peter tradition, we've prepared one for you, uh, that we can go through.

Um, and so we welcome, um, Áine our um, impact officer at Galway and, um, she has a challenge she would like to share with us.

Áine Mhic Thaidhg: 00:24:58

Yes, thank you, Esther. So the challenge I presented that the clinic was I'm an impact officer and I've been trying to facilitate schools to develop impact case studies for a research assessment exercise and find challenging, ensuring case studies meet the criteria, maintain consistency, quality and meet high standards, just to sort of clarify on what I was looking for.

So in terms of maintaining consistent quality across the case, studies for me is quite daunting. Um, particularly because each school may have varying level, varying levels of experience in articulating their research impact, which can lead to sort of inconsistencies in presentation and depth of analysis.

Um, also challenging is fostering this culture of high standards and impact. You know, and the ongoing support and engagement for that. So it means obviously guiding authors in their writing, but also creating an environment where feedback is encouraged and integrated into the whole case study development process.

But, you know, overall, the goal is to ensure the case studies are, of course, fulfilled their criteria, the assessment criteria. But really, truly reflect the high quality research being conducted within that school.

Esther de Smet: 00:26:14

Thank you. Um, Ged, you've been around for a long time. You've seen, uh, all of us working in this.

I'm doing it again. I'm very sorry. Um, no, it's, it's not. Um, yeah. Do you have any kind of prescriptions for Áine, uh, to, to help her? work on this quality, work on this feedback culture. I think from your experience within research culture that you might have some tips for her.

Ged Hall: 00:26:42

Yeah. So some things I thought of were, um, one thing we did in the run up to REF 2021 is that we distributed really small cards.

So we, we distributed postcard size things and those were based on really the criteria in REF. Research Excellence Framework, which goes to, you know, many, many pages for the impact section. So we distilled that down into something the size of a postcard, um, and really kind of tried to turn the criteria into hints and tips.

Um, so that, that really helps you think through what do our criteria mean in terms of how should I operationalise them? And then it also, because it's digestible is really easy to remember. So. You know, aim for, uh, you know, the usual sort of five tips or 10 tips, depending on the number of criteria you might have.

And I know that proved really popular, um, both, um, with the authors and actually it also proved really popular with the internal reviewers that we had. So, you know, we had a number of internal review rounds before it went in to the final, um, submission for, for REF, where it goes to the external review.

hat would have happened in REF: 2014

So we've really got to, um, prevent that because being assessed is stressful anyway. Um, so we don't want the stress of kind of being told to undo all of the things we were told to do previously. So, so that, that was, um, That was really helpful in that in terms of getting a sense of, of, of on both the review and the author side that we're working to the same almost prescription.

I'll use that again here. Um, finally, I think, um, If on, if you did the postcards, you could also put QR codes to, and on those QR codes would take people to maybe explained examples of good practice. So here's why this fits our criteria with, you know, with commentary that helps the person understand why it's been written that way and why that, that is a successful way of, of, uh, of hitting the criteria.

So that was my, those were my initial thoughts on that.

Esther de Smet: 00:29:33

Yeah, very good. Um, Giovanna, you've got a track record in, um, helping research groups really down to the nitty gritty of, of their strategy on impact and so on. What would you recommend Áine to, to be aware of or to maybe bring into the process?

Giovanna Lima: 00:29:53

Thank you.

Yeah, I agree with Ged and he has already some great practical tips. I suppose in terms of practical tips, I would also provide template and examples. I think that's one of the things that we most hear people asking for. It's, uh, can I just look at it? Of course, the copy pasting is what we're worried about when they ask for a call for a template or but with now it's generative AI.

Um, they will ask for a template. The tools for example, so it's better if the examples are coming from us, I suppose, that we have some curation, but that's from a more practical side of the house, but on the more strategic or behavioural type of thing, I would. Really show what's in it for them. Um, I think sometimes people are like, oh, why are they asking us to do this?

So I think you need to show that that's worth their while. So maybe connecting it to other things that they already have to do. That helps me with my change initiatives a lot. So hopefully that can help Áine.

Esther de Smet: 00:30:55

Yeah. And I think you've, you've mentioned something there that I would suggest as well, reusing the effort that has gone into it already.

Uh, so linking up with your, um, institutional research communication team and, and making sure that these stories are getting out there, even if, if you might imagine that it's, if, if they haven't been ranked, Um, not everyone lives within a context of REF or any other, uh, assessment framework. Um, you're still collecting worthwhile information, uh, that you can celebrate people on.

And, uh, maybe also showing the stakeholders that were involved, kind of flipping the story and, and bringing the story from the point of view of the stakeholder. And we all know that academics, if they see someone else being highlighted somewhere, getting some accolades, that might get them across again, the next time you're organising something like that.

So remember that story that everyone talked about for weeks afterwards? Don't you want a story like that as well? So, um, I hope Áine that we've given you some, uh, indication of maybe things you can introduce, um, and, and get back to us and let us know how that went and, and what other challenges you might have faced, um, in, in that whole thing.

Áine Mhic Thaidhg: 00:32:19

Yeah. Thank you. That's been fantastic. I'm really glad this is recorded so I can go back and listen to those tips. Um, I think for us going, we're in year two now of this review and we definitely You know, I've gone through a bit of a lessons learned and some of those prescriptions really hit home. And for us, it is about using examples, best case, you know, and we have that from, from year one and, you know, the process will get easier, but it's, it's, what is the value of something like this?

And I suppose, ultimately, aside from a review process, and I think for me, the most important is, You know, showcasing, when did we ever get a chance to really take track of what we've done and showcase that and celebrate it. And as a university, it really demonstrates that we value impact if we do something like that.

Esther de Smet: 00:33:06

Yeah, Ged, maybe I need to add that in our, the kind of the paperwork that comes into an impact clinic, um, we ask people to, to leave their details behind. That's why we have everyone write down stuff, so that when. And kind of time slips away, maybe, and you still want to reconnect with someone that gave you a really worthwhile tip.

You've got each other's contact details. And of course, only within that group and only if everyone agrees to share those details. Um, and, and we've even written a small kind of summary and report of the clinic and send it out afterwards. Uh, so to keep it like a live document and, and give someone, um, that extra level of engagement afterwards as well, not just this one experience during a workshop at one conference.

So actually, Provide an, an, an extra element to creating your own network as well.

Ged Hall: 00:34:08

Yeah, I thought that was really lovely. Um, a couple of weeks ago when that landed in my inbox, because obviously I'd said, yes, absolutely. You can, you can tell me what, what brilliant ideas that people came up for my.

challenge. Um, so when that arrived, it kind of really made me think, have I done anything about that? Because it is that, you know, it is that reminder, isn't it? And that's what we say to the, to the academics when certainly if you have in a workshop or something like that, and you've got, you've got people coming to it, external stakeholders, you want to really remind them of the things that they said they might do with your, research findings and, and it gives you that opportunity for evaluative contact afterwards.

So, yeah, great idea. So shall we move on?

Esther de Smet: 00:34:56

Yes. Lovely.

Ged Hall: 00:34:59

So, um, I think Giovanna, you were going to give us your challenge next, weren't you?

Giovanna Lima: 00:35:07

Yes. So, and I read out of the challenge card. So to give people, uh, what the challenge card is. So it's a medley, right? So it says, I am a, and then what's my role. So I am an impact and recognition rewards project officer.

And I have been trying to facilitate schools to include impact in their career development for academics. And I find challenging. To define what is the correct level of assessment for impact. So that's what my challenge is. And to give you a little bit more context, um, we considered impact to be a impact sport, uh, but most career development assessment happens at the individual level.

How to reconcile that? So, and then, uh, another contextual, uh, thing maybe for you, uh, since you don't know my context that well, um, the university I work And it's very decentralized. So we don't have one development policy for all the schools, uh, not one hiring policy for the schools. Actually, each school and and therefore the disciplines have different approaches to this.

But that's my challenge. Thank you for helping me solve it.

Ged Hall: 00:36:24

And Áine, are you going to offer your.

Áine Mhic Thaidhg: 00:36:28

Yes, I have a prescription for Giovanna. Um, so this was an interesting challenge because I think we all face it, you know, it's, it's definitely a common, but complex issue. Um, so I, you know, I have a potential approach for you.

Um, I suppose the first thing is clarifying objectives at each career stage that might be useful. What I mean by that is sort of a tiered impact expectations that align with different career stages. For example, if we look at early stage researchers, the focus could be on, you know, the identifying potential impact pathways, whereas with more senior staff, You could, um, you know, staff could be expected to demonstrate concrete societal impacts or maybe policy influence.

So that type of tiered expectation. Also, in terms of maybe co creation with stakeholders, engaging academic staff and school leadership in defining what meaningful impact looks like within their own disciplines. So it ensures, you know, it's relevant then for them, um, and maybe more accepted and easily embedded, uh, into, into sort of performance reviews, things like that.

Also, um, one suggestion was, you know, focusing on the type of evidence. So we always think of quantitative and qualitative in terms of impact. So encouraging maybe a balance between those things. So the quantifiable outputs, you know, your policy changes, patents, things like that. And then the qualitative narrative.

So describing the journey of impact. So there's flexibility there and what's relevant for the person. And of course, you know, the key thing is always training, mentorship, you know, offering workshops or mentoring sessions that guide them understanding how they can embed impact into their career development, how they might articulate their contributions and their plans for future impact as well.

So I hope that's been helpful.

Ged Hall: 00:38:25

And Esther, do you want to give your prescription?

Esther de Smet: 00:38:28

Um, I think it's important in, in this kind of process to recognise their ownership in the entire process. Um, to actually do this in a very authentic way for them as well. What, how do you operate? What's important to you? And, and what do you think?

, um, is the idea of nothing [: 00:39:00

Learn from your own impact pathway. processes that you teach researchers and, and put it to practice in your own, um, projects, policy projects as well. Uh, so that would be my main, uh, advice, um, and good luck with it.

Giovanna Lima: 00:39:30

Thanks, a million. It's so good because as with Áine, it's, it's what we already know, right? So we had a project with three of our schools that's called Recognition and Rewards of Impact Activities where we did go in a How do you want to be recognised and rewarded by your impact activities?

And people were sharing how much of the tick boxing exercise they don't want to do, us to do, because we don't want to tick box publications to now tick box impact, uh, and do I need to now have a track of my meetings and all of that. So it's still a challenge, uh, even when we know what we do not want, uh, but we don't know, necessarily know what we do want.

So I think that's where we are right now. Thank you so much, both of you.

Ged Hall: 00:40:13

Yeah, just just final thoughts on that. I mean, it's, I think there's, there's a crossover in, in the, you know, when you have got a bit further along the line, when you have examples that really helps people to see, you know, so, um, so it might be a case of you trial some.

Um, some different types of ideas and, and then see from those examples, does that work for people? So there's, um, so there's that more iterative development as well, as well as just kind of, okay, we'll try and do co production once. Co production is an iterative process. So, so maybe, maybe try that.

Giovanna Lima: 00:40:52

I don't want this to end now.

We should have done the full clinic for this episode.

Ged Hall: 00:40:58

I know. Yes. Uh, so, um, kind of. Moving on, I guess, uh, hopefully listeners, that kind of gave you a feel for, for how quickly you can do some quite thorny, uh, quite thorny topics, uh, and get quite a lot of hopefully meat and, um, you know, meaty ideas through in, in a short space of time, as well as that, you know, as we said, that commitment to be able to follow up with those people and kind of going, you know, I've tried it.

I'm not quite sure what you meant by that. Can you, can you give me a bit more advice? You know, that, that would be, you know, that, that's where it goes. So if, if it stimulated you to, um, to try something like that, please let us all know, especially, uh, especially the people, um, that I'm interviewing who came up with this brilliant idea.

Now, Coming back to, to you three, what are the future plans for the method? Any, any ideas that you, you're going to go with it? Áine, you're nodding your head, so I'll come to you first.

Áine Mhic Thaidhg: 00:42:02

You know, I think we, we each enjoyed it. Uh, you know, we're definitely exploring ways to maybe scale the clinic, but I suppose we're equally conscious of our own roles and capacity outside of those, you know, future plans are evolving.

Um, We're looking at, uh, potentially delivering the clinic at a EARMA next year. We're definitely delivering the clinic at the ENLIGHT Impact Conference. Um, and we're kind of discussing how this sort of fits into our broader frameworks. Um, you know, within our own roles, um, but we're definitely excited about how this could be applied across different contexts.

Um, but I suppose for now, we're definitely taking time to refine the approach and ensure it aligns with our existing structures, our own roles and what we do.

Ged Hall: 00:42:49

Esther, have you got any ideas for what you do with the impact clinic next?

Esther de Smet: 00:42:55

Um, well, I think it's a case of, At Ghent University, there isn't just one model that we push as being the model in all our support that we do on on impact.

So in my case, it's it's adding this to all the possibilities that are out there. And, um, I, I've got this good situation going where, um, we have nine big centers, research centers that are being paid to do work aimed at societal impact. And, uh, they all have impact officers, um, really on the job working with big groups of researchers.

So it'll, it'll just go into. Their toolbox. Um, and they'll adapt it in their own way. And I think that's the main thing. We're all, we're all talking about open science. Um, it's the same idea. We're developing something. Um, it's not our own and we'll just put it out there. And of course, we'll enjoy it.

facilitating, uh, workshops ourselves, but I won't be rolling this out as, uh, my new endeavour, my new professional endeavour. So I'm, I'm not coming after you as a kind of a consultant doing impact clinics all the way. I still have a big responsibility to my own research community. Um, but, um, yeah, so I, I hope it just finds its way.

Um, and. is used by people who feel that it fits their methods, their sensibilities. Um, so don't force it. Don't become an impact nurse if it's not in your nature to be an impact nurse. So I think that's my main message. Um, if it suits you, take it on and you'll, you'll probably see me doing it somewhere along the way.

again.

Ged Hall: 00:44:46

Brilliant. Well, I've really enjoyed refreshing my memory of, uh, of the Impact Clinic and, you know, my, that wonderful time we had in, in Dublin. And thank you for sharing all of, uh, your ideas and thoughts [00:45:00] with, uh, with our listeners out there. Now, one of the joys about conferences and certainly this experience of being a podcaster too, is meeting lots of new and interesting people like you who.

Call me old and white and And that's made me think of some future episodes, which needs to focus on, um, impact heroes. So I'm going to come to you and I'm going to start building this into all the interviews I do with anybody using an impact space in terms of who's your impact hero and why. And, you know, they might be on my list to interview at some point.

So, Esther, I'll come to you. I'll come in, I'll come in order of, um, uh, from top to bottom on my Zoom screen. So, Esther.

Esther de Smet: 00:45:48

Um, well, I know the PC answer would be to point to our gloriously creative and engaged research community. And of course, they are all heroes in my eyes. But I feel that this is also a great opportunity to recognise some of the very influential professionals who have been working in this space and have been so generous with their time and knowledge.

At least that's how I experienced it. I feel, I really feel part of an impact kind of community, clan, tribe as David Phipps, who's been one of my impact heroes would call it. Um, but I got started and, and inspired mainly by Leonie van Drogen and Stefan de Jong. Uh, Stefan, who now works at, um, the University of, of, uh, Rotterdam, Erasmus University.

Um, yeah, Dutch colleagues who, who tweeted quite a lot about impact and, and got me started, got me into a conversation with them. I just, I just emailed them and I said, Wow, I recognise myself and the things I want to do. Let's let's meet up. And so that has been a big influence. And then I met Susan Reno, who's kind of spearheading the broader impacts community in the US.

And the thing is, it's, it might be a totally different context, the American context, but the processes, the people and impact. Are the same. It's, it's something that connects us all because it's about connectivity. Um, and then just And I'll stop because it's beginning to sound like a kind of an Oscar acceptance speech.

But Jane Tinkler, Tinkler from LSE when she was still at LSE talking about impact of social sciences and humanities. And then my big inspiration, Julie Bayley, kind of like the goddess of impact at the moment, but also Gloria and Igor who I've met through ENLIGHT and, and. Yeah, I've, I've learned so much from them as well.

y own research institutes, I [: 00:48:00

Ged Hall 00:48:08

Well, well, Esther, you've given me a list of content to go in all the way up to my retirement. I think they, yeah, excellent. Giovanna, I'll come to you next.

Who's your, uh, shall I say impact hero singular.

Giovanna Lima: 00:48:24

Now, now I have a problem because you already interviewed her and she's in the room today. So Esther was the one when I moved to Europe because I had done impact in Brazil, but of course moving to, to the European landscape was a different ball game. And I was the first research impact officer for Trinity College Dublin.

And I was, as Áine said, for Galway trying to say, okay, how do we make this authentic to Trinity, but then authentic to the arts and humanities, which was the community that I was working with. And of course, there's so many models that don't work for the arts and humanities, and we need to really care for that disciplinary difference.

And Esther was one of the first people that I emailed and said, Hey, we're doing this. Can you help? And she was immediately said yes. And since then we've become great friends. And so I guess I made your life easy now, Ged. And I'll stop with Esther because she already gave the whole list.

Ged Hall: 00:49:22

Fair enough.

Áine, who's yours?

Áine Mhic Thaidhg: 00:49:26

Thank you, Ged. Um, yeah. So, you know, the first person that came to mind actually was Saskia Walcott. Um, because I suppose when I started the role, um, as I said, I was, uh, on my own, it was February 2020. We went into lockdown a few weeks later. Um, and I wasn't really sure what to do, and I actually Googled Impact Expert and came across Saskia Walcott.

Um, but, you know, I was so fortunate because once I linked in, you know, she had She had kind of done something similar to me many years prior before going independent herself and was really enthusiastic about the project and, and provided so much guidance to me as I sort of navigated the waters for the first time.

e studies that we did back in: 2020

Um, and, you know, her approach has really influenced my work over the years, um, shifting and guiding others, uh, you know, to articulate and navigate. Evidence the impact of their research. Um, but one resource I suppose I want to highlight is, um, you know, she developed for University of Galway is reflections of research impact and it's become such a valuable resource in our toolkit, which, you know, is open to all anyone can access it.

If anyone wants just a really solid overview of research impact, go into the reflections piece. It's a nine part video series. It's excellent. Um, so yeah, I just wanted to mention her and you know, Esther, thankfully you covered all of the amazing people out there because there were so many, when I, when I thought of this question, you know, I was thinking of the same people, David Phipps, especially in the recent years has been massive support.

And of course, Julie Bayley. Um, but you guys here as well, and I've been very fortunate to collaborate with you and particularly Esther with the work in ENLIGHT, you know, we've been, I feel like, you know, we're on a team for years, which is great. Um, but yeah, it's, uh, we're very fortunate with the impact community that's out there.

I know we've mentioned them, but really, really fortunate to have such amazing people within that.

Ged Hall: 00:51:44

Yeah, that's another great call. I've loved working with Saskia over the years. So yeah, she's definitely going to get added to the list. So thanks again to all three of you for agreeing to give up, uh, give up this, uh, this time on a Friday afternoon.

Um, so hopefully you're heading soon to a really good weekend, but I'll leave it. to you to kind of say goodbye to the listeners. So Giovanna, I'll come to you first to say whatever you want to say as, as bye.

Giovanna Lima: 00:52:14

Just a big thank you. And maybe I was too lenient on you, Ged. Maybe my final say is that, uh, we Could start recognising the other people that are part of the impact life cycle.

And we mentioned the marketing comms colleagues from my perspective, from recognition and rewards, we have the HR colleagues, of course, and every single part of every single research performing institution. And in my case, also education and engagement has a role to play when it comes to impact. So we are not alone.

And maybe what you could do is start. Start interviewing impact heroes in those sectors. So who is an impact hero? Who's bringing comms? Uh, who's an impact to your hero in HR and all of those colleagues? So that's a big thank you from me. Do take part in the co creation exercise of our RM Roadmap in November and December and do check out the toolbox of Erasmus University Rotterdam.

It is really great. Thanks.

Ged Hall: 00:53:11

Brilliant. And Esther, do you want to say goodbye?

Esther de Smet: 00:53:14

Uh, yes, I do want to say goodbye. So, um, I hope that your listeners have, have picked some little gems of knowledge, uh, from us as well. Um, I think that's the main thing. We all inspire each other so much and, um, we need to. Academia, for, impact support professionals and any professional, uh, supporting researchers is not an easy place, but it can be such a wonderful place.

are available for that. And [: 00:54:00

We'll do everything because even those things are small impacts that are worthwhile.

Ged Hall: 00:54:12

Excellent. Áine, last word to you.

Áine Mhic Thaidhg: 00:54:15

Um, well, thanks to you, Ged, for the invitation. This, uh, was my first podcast, um, and I really, really enjoyed it. Um, and I suppose to the listeners for tuning in. Um, do check out our impact toolkit to check out our webinar series.

Do look at the wonderful resources from the ENLIGHT Impact Repository. And of course, everyone stay curious and making an impact.

Intro: 00:54:38

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