The #ResearchCultureUncovered podcast team is delighted to share a special episode featuring Dr. Jim Baxter, Academic Development Consultant at the University of Leeds, recorded ahead of his retirement after 36 remarkable years studying and employed at the institution.

Join host Ged Hall as he sits down with his long-time colleague and former manager to reflect on Jim's extraordinary career spanning mechanical engineering research, postdoctoral work, a role as a lecturer, and over two decades shaping researcher and academic development — all at the University of Leeds.

• Hear Jim reflect on changes in higher education since the early 1990s and what these have meant for how universities support their researchers.

• Discover Jim's proudest career moments, including influencing the university's strategic recognition of researchers as people, not just producers of outputs, and designing development programmes that put researcher needs at their centre.

• Learn what Jim believes still needs to change — from helping postdocs develop realistic awareness of their career options, to the sector's ongoing struggle to properly evaluate the impact of researcher development interventions.

• Explore Jim's advice for those still working in the field: develop your networks, be compassionately honest with the people you support, and help researchers navigate the "hidden curriculum" of academic life.

• Get a glimpse of what retirement looks like for someone who has been at the same major research university for 36 years.

Organisations, episodes, etc mentioned in the interview:

• Research Leadership Provision
• Vitae’s History of Researcher Development in the UK: mentions the first GRAD school in 1968. Jim and Ged didn’t go until the early 90s.
• Contributor Role Taxonomy (CRediT)
• (Episode 109) Tony Bromley Reflects on his Career, the Changes, and the Future in Research Development
• Vitae’s Rugby Team Impact Framework

All of our episodes can be accessed via the following playlists:

1. Research Impact with Ged Hall (follow Ged on Bluesky and LinkedIn) and Alix Brodie-Wray (follow Alix on LinkedIn)
2. Research Impact Heroes with Ged Hall
3. Open Research with Nick Sheppard (follow Nick on Bluesky and LinkedIn)
4. Research Careers with Ruth Winden (follow Ruth on Bluesky and LinkedIn)
5. Research talent management
6. Meet the Research Culturositists with Emma Spary (follow Emma on Bluesky and LinkedIn)
7. Research co-production
8. Research evaluation
9. Research leadership
10. Research professionals
11. Academic failure with Taryn Bell (follow Taryn on Bluesky and LinkedIn)

Follow us on Bluesky: @researcherdevleeds.bsky.social (new episodes are announced here), @openresleeds.bsky.social, @researchcultureuol.bsky.social

Connect to us on LinkedIn: @ResearchUncoveredPodcast (new episodes are announced here)

If you would like to contribute to a podcast episode get in touch: [email protected]

Ged Hall 00:00:23 Welcome. My name is Ged Hall, and I'm the Head of Researcher Development at the University of Leeds.

Now, as you know, all of the episodes I contribute to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast focus on some aspect of research impact, and they're all available via a playlist, which is in the show notes. You may have noticed I've also started a new playlist called Research Impact Heroes, which I'll be adding to periodically, uh, and that link is also in the show notes.

Jim Baxter 00:01:09 Hello.

2004.

Ged Hall 00:01:24 Yeah, absolutely. So that, I, I think we met not long after I got my first role as a researcher developer at the University of Nottingham, and you were also my manager when I first joined Leeds in, in 2011. Now, Jim and I were both, uh, undergraduates at, at Leeds.

Um, oh, no, you were undergraduate at Bristol, weren't you? And I was- Yeah ... undergraduate at Leeds. Um, before you... So you did mech eng, didn't you, at Bristol, and then you came to Leeds to do a PhD in the early '90s. Now, that's, that's I think when we actually overlapped as PhD students- Yep ... although we never met at the time, which is-

Ged Hall 00:02:08 Not knowingly met, which is interesting because I was collaborating with another group, you know, presumably not your research group in mech eng, um, during my PhD. So I was regularly over there, um, in, uh, in that big lab where all the engines were on the ground floor. Do you remember it?

Ged Hall 00:02:31 Oh, that's probably why we never met because I, I, I probably couldn't wheeze my way all the way up to the, up to the top floor, and there probably wasn't a reason either, G- 'Cause, uh, 'cause of going to the lab on the ground floor. Um, yeah. It was, it was sensible that you don't try and get an engine on the top floor, yeah, of a building.

And this all comes from your LinkedIn profile, so If you've got that wrong I've got that wrong. Um, where he's been involved in loads of work around post-graduate researchers, post-doctoral researchers, new lecturer development, and also research leadership. So he's covered the whole spectrum of career stages associated with, uh, with research.

Now, Jim, um, has also sat on Senate, which is, uh, the university's academic governance body, which is chaired by the vice chancellor for many years. How long were you on Senate, Jim?

Ged Hall 00:04:01 So because of that, um, as, uh, as sitting on that g- on that, uh, very high profile, um, committee, and his 32 years of working at, at Leeds, not counting his PhD, that's just counting his post-doctoral research lectureship and, and his roles in, uh, in researcher development, our team refer to him as the university's keystone.

And, and he's really, um, he's really certainly the university's memory. In fact, this morning I, um, I got in touch with him 'cause I thought, "There was a document I remember reading. Jim will know where that is." And sure enough, he did. And I really don't know how we'll cope. That's just a really simple, um, example of the way Jim, um, has that institutional memory, both at those kind of minor levels in terms of where documents are, and also at that really strategic level in terms of where the university's going, what the sector is all about, how should the university respond, what has it tried in the past and got wrong, what has it tried in the past and got right and has forgotten how to do.

Jim knows all of that stuff at Leeds because of his, uh, because of his many years here. So Jim, how's it feel? Let's, uh, how's it feel kind of looking back on, on that time?

So, uh, uh, people may know what, what, what I mean by double elephant paper. Huge sheets of paper, sort of like a meter wide sheet of paper, and these drawing boards were bigger than those- Mm ... those sheets of paper. So I very much came into the HE sector at a point in time where, uh, there was still, it was still very much an analogue world-

Jim Baxter 00:06:10 And, and I think that the, the, the, um, oh, is it about '94, 1994 is I think the, the date that's given to when the World Wide Web- Mm.

Was, was, was, was, was started, was created, and that was, that was the same year I finished my PhD. Um, so the, the ... I think what, looking back, I see is, is, is that change, that move from the rotary dial telephone T- t- to where we are now with smartphones as, as just as an example, that the, the, that fifth wheel of mechanical engineering, there isn't, won't be a drawing board in sight anymore, I suspect.

It'll, it'll, it'll be- Mm ... all driven by computers.

Atari computer to control- Yeah ... the laser. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Awful. Um, so let's, uh, let's get into reminiscing a bit more strategically- Yeah ... that actually might be useful for, for listeners to this podcast. So as I've said, you've been in researcher development at Leeds since 2002, and you've always been passionate about it.

So can you tell us why you moved into that? And, you know, what were the reasons you've stayed at Leeds?

Um, and I also like, uh, designing things, making things. So, so the mechanical engineering background is very much that the focus there is physical. But I think the reason and what my PhD was to a degree about was, was the process of designing things. So it's, it's, um, the process of designing things, the process of, of developing, uh, our provision in Organisational Development and Professional Learning, be it workshops, be it programmes, be it resources, is, is, is trying and trying to be creative about it and try and trying to take that design approach where actually starting with what do the people we work with need?

Jim Baxter 00:08:41 How do we, how do we come up with a set of requirements for that, and then how do we deliver on those requirements? So, so yeah, trying to ... So, so for me, it's, um, why am I passionate about it? It's about trying to deliver the needs, against the needs of people, building on requirements, drawing upon those, those principles of design.

I think, I think is what interested me in, in, in, in, in my PhD, what I was doing mechanical engineering and, and the, the role that, um, I took on in, in what is now Organisational Development and Professional Learning. Um- I didn't, what, uh, before the role that I, I took on was advertised, I didn't know it existed.

Jim Baxter 00:09:23 Um, and, and I think, uh, uh, yeah, 24 years later, here we are talking about it. Uh, uh, I haven't left it behind. Um, uh, when I, when I was looking at the role, I thought, "Actually, hang about. I've, my, my experience is a really good fit with this. My interests are a really good fit with this. Let, let, let... I, I've, I've

There's a real opportunity here to, to continue to work with people in new and different ways, um, and, and to utilise the experience I've got." So I, uh, I, I made an application, uh, and was fortunate enough to be appointed. Oh, what, what, what keeps me going? What, what has kept me in it for the last-

uh, yeah couple of decades.

Um, I think that there is, there's always been something new and interesting. There's variety of, of what I've been involved with. I've, I've seen things over chi- time. I've, I've got involved in projects, um, around the university, um, looking at developing new buildings and how those are used. I've been involved with building big development programmes for, for staff.

Um, doing some of the needs analysis I ta- talked about up front, talked about needs analysis, talking to academics across the institution, researchers across the institution about what they need and, and, and that's always fascinating. Um, so a variety of, of interesting things to do. I, uh, and I have to say this, don't I?

Um, no I don't. The, I, I, I genuinely, I think that I enjoy working with people in the team. So the people around me that I work with, I, I find that a pleasure. We- I was in the, in the office yesterday morning and we were having a conversation, um, that, that actually helped me think about how I put arguments forward in other contexts.

And, and I wouldn't get that if, if I wasn't working with, with, uh, uh, like-minded people and that those are people that are actually relatively new to the team as well.

Certainly re- new to, to, to the team from my perspective. Um, so I enjoy working with people and I, I think the th- the third thing is that, uh, the place of work fits with, with what I do outside work, fits, fits with my family life.

. And, and, and, and so there's, there's, there's a ha- ha- I think, I think there's a happy marriage. I enjoy the w- I enjoy the role. I, I enjoy working with the people and it fits well with my home life. Um, uh, what's ... Dare I say this? Uh, th- there's never been another opportunity that, that has been as exciting.

Jim Baxter 00:12:10 it? Ish. Ish. So my f- so my first encounter with, with, with what is now Organisational Development and Professional Learning was when I was a, a, an academic in mechanical engineering undertaking the, right, Postgraduate Certificate of Learning and Teaching in Higher Education.

So this, this, I did that before the, the, um, millennium.

But I, I, I, I reckon when I joined the department there were ... So there were originally four people who, who, who created the department and then, um, when I joined there were less than 10.

And I think, I think me and two other colleagues who joined actually tip- tipped the, the, the, um, the size of the team over beyond 10.

Um, take that as a, a, a, um, a, an order of magnitude rather than a precise number.

figure. So that, uh, at the time probably gave you a lot of scope for kind of, um, experimentation and, and trying things and, and, you know, building new things. You mentioned that a lot. Yeah. So over your career, what kind of projects and activities have you enjoyed the most? What have you got the biggest satisfaction from, and, and, and where does that satisfaction come from?

You know, why is, why was that so satisfying?

And th- th- the, the, the, uh, at that refresh point, there was an explicit reference to researchers, the people on the, on the, on the strategy map that hadn't been there before. Mm. Um, and I think the, the- That was a t- a, a key tipping point for me was that, that recognition that we do research, not just for the outputs and for the new knowledge it creates, but also because we're trying to help the next, the, the, the next generation of people-

Jim Baxter 00:14:33 do the research in the future. Yeah. Um, so I thought, I thought that was possibly the thing that gave me the greatest satisfaction. Um, and, and I think that was a lot about making sure, uh, that we were influencing what was going on in the institution. At a cr- at the crude level, it's about writing papers for committees that actually exemplify the importance of the people as well as the, the people in delivering the research.

Um, so that I, I, I took a great deal of satisfaction from that. Uh, I, I think one of the things that, that has, has given me, uh, continues to give me a lot of satisfaction is, um, being able to encourage people to think about, uh, their research work within the higher education context. It, it, higher education isn't just about doing research, it's about doing student education.

The, the, the, the, and there are lots of other things that take place. So, um, one of the-- So I've, I've already mentioned the Postgraduate Certificate of Learning and Teaching in Higher Education. That, that, that has gone through a number of iterations, uh, over the year with a number of different people leading it.

And, um, there was a, a, a One of, one of the, the developments that was probably earlier on in, in my time in the department was to develop a, an award that was built around not only student education, but research and leadership and, and, and building in elements of all of those, uh, uh, skills, competencies in- into the programme.

Um, which ena- it, uh, uh, and that, that enables us to do things like we, we, there's an optional module included on, on research supervision, which is possibly the one that the, the most clear link across the, the student education research- Mm-hmm ... uh, um, agendas. Uh, uh, that was really satisfying. And the, even now, the current Postgraduate Certificate in Academic Practice, um, uh, includes a session on the higher education context.

And, and to a degree, that's because of what the accreditation body requires us to do. But it, it does give us an opportunity to actually talk to people w- when they're, when they're thinking about their student education practice, think about how do you do that within the context, the broader context of what goes on in the university, including, including research.

So I, and, and, and trying to encourage people involved in student education to think about, um, student projects. Fi- final year projects are a great way of marrying the two together. It's a great way for, for, for, for, um, academics to, uh, maybe get some, some work done into an area that's of interest to them that they haven't experienced before and, and they want some of those, some pilot studies to take place.

Um, so, uh, take- taking a d- real satisfaction from keeping that connection alive. I th- uh, uh, we'll maybe re- return to that later. Um- What else, uh, uh, do I get satisfaction from? Um, the ... So one of the workshops we run is for, for PGRs preparing for their viva. The, the workshop called Your Viva. Um, and, and the thing that I enjoy about that was, one, I th- I think

My mem- my memory fa- fails me a little bit, but I th- I'm pretty confident that when we first did it, I was involved in developing it and was- Mm ... still running it, it, in, in, in a different form now. And, um, the, the ... I think there are two things that, uh, I was really pleased about. One was that we focused very much on what the PGRs, the, the, the experience they go through in the viva.

Rather than telling them what we want to do, we give them the opportunity to experience what it might be like to be in the viva. Um, so there's, there's, there's ... Trying to align it very much with what their needs are. And you can see when they leave, they, they, they go away with a, a, a, a, a clear, a, a clearer sense of purpose-

At when, when, when they depart the workshop. So those ... And, and that's just one example of a number of things that I've been eng- uh, engaged with over time, where you can see people go, "Oh, yes, I'm gonna do something about that." Um, I think the, uh, what's that, is that a ... H- One of the ways to characterise it is, is micro moments.

See- seeing the realisation on people's faces, "Oh, that's what, what you mean. Oh, that's what I need to do." Um, so it's about lots of small wins that, that ... The principle of, um, uh, oh, marginal gains Um, so that, that, that's been really satisfying. There's, uh, I'm, and I'll, I'll, I'll mention this example 'cause there's, I think there's a particular point I wanted to get across here.

Um, so in our, uh, one of our libraries, on the top floor we've got some training rooms that, that are, uh, meeting rooms that, that are used by the library, uh, we use for, for, for PGRs. And the whole, the whole top floor is, is aimed at use by postgraduates, by taught postgraduates and, and postgraduate researchers.

Um, so it gives them a space, and those, uh, meeting rooms, there's a divider between the two of them. And I was involved in, in the, in the project in, that was thinking about how the rooms were gonna be used, how they were gonna be designed, and, and the, that divider is a whiteboard, so the whole wall is a whiteboard.

And, and I, and that was one of the key suggestions that I made when that room was redesigned. And it's really y- you can- I've, I've seen at least two colleagues go in there and get really excited about the opportunity to map out the whole workshop as they go along, note the workshop as they go along on that whiteboard.

And people take pictures of it and, and it's a, something they can go away with. And I've even been in there and seen, um, uh, equations that, that, that, that somebody's done some sort of proof or solution. It's gone across the entire thing, and that, that w- if, if that's only possible because of the extent of, of the whiteboard.

Um- Uh, and I recognise it's a physical thing, but it's also a pedagogic thing. Um, and, and so why, why do I mention it? Uh, uh, because it's a, it's a physical thing. There's some clear evidence of impact, and we'll come back to, uh, the challenges we face around that when it comes to staff development later. Um, but it was

The key thing for me was we were involved as the people developers early enough in the project to actually be able to influence that happening, and, and I think that, that, uh, f- for me, one of the key, key things that I think I've learnt over time is, and may- maybe I'm trailing some of the stuff I'll say later, is it, it would, it'd be great if we could get involved in change projects earlier.

are resolved for th- for- Yeah ... those people that they- Yeah ... that they merge within and- Yeah ... and, uh, and hopefully to prevent that sort of burnout from those- Yeah ... different demands on them. I know that, uh, that drives you a lot, and it's, uh, it's something I've noticed through- throughout the time that I've known you that, uh, you know, you don't focus on it's just the research that I care about, um, and not the teaching side of the, of the university.

Um, now, um, kind of slightly different angle. You know, in every career there are things that, um, things that didn't go so well or, um, or didn't, didn't emerge as you'd, you'd hoped for. So kind of looking back over that career, what, what change in culture in higher education or the, you know, the practices that, that kind of either or, or the physical embodiment of, of the culture did you hope to see, um, but still haven't been realised?

What, what do I mean? So, um, I remember running, uh, uh, introduction meetings for new research staff, new post-docs, and the, the, the, the conversation would go something along the lines of how many of you would- Uh, uh, have got an aspiration to have an academic post, and you get nine out of 10 people put their hands up to that question.

And then, but if you look at the data of, of the number of academic posts available versus the number of postdocs that will be looking for them, it's the other way around. It's more like one in 10.

Jim Baxter 00:23:46 And, and the, there's the, um, the, there's a, a lack of an appreciation of the circumstance that postdocs find themselves in.

It's, yes, absolutely go for the academic career if that, if that's what you're interested in, where, where your, your, um, uh, passion lies. Um, at the same time, also think about what your other alternatives are. Um, so, so I think, I think that level of awareness... And another level of awareness of circumstance is, um, there's a real push for, for people to get research funding And, and, and that it's kind of that, uh, there's a hurdle there.

There's a, um, for, for a milestone for, for people new to it, getting that first grant or getting the first grant of any size. And typical, that first grant of any size will result in you employing some, some, some staff. And the, the thing that... This is, this is a simplification. I recognise it's a simplification, but it's at the point you s- you c- you, you start writing the grant, you are in effect committing to recruiting and managing people.

And actually, the focus that I perceive people have is when they're trying to get th- their first grant is, it's I need to come up with a great research idea that will attract funding. They don't necessarily recognise that commitment to, uh, that the people are gonna be, be, be, um, involved in the grant. And there's also a whole list of other things that they will need to do that are around project management and administration that they need to-- they, they're committing their time to, which they don't re- necessarily recognise.

So a- awareness of what you... So postdocs, awareness of what they're committing themselves to when they take on a, a, a role and where they, that means for their career. Uh, academic staff recognising what they're taking on when they, th- they're getting some research funding and what m- that means for their careers.

Um, so I think, I think there's a, a, a, one of the, one... And, and I think we need to-- I'm not sure we do a good enough job yet of helping people recognise that that's what they're getting themselves into. The second thing, you, you'll like this one. I don't think we're very-- We are as good as we should be when it comes to evaluating what we do.

Jim Baxter 00:26:01 And, and, and, and there's, you've, you have-- From memory, you've got a whole podcast with Tony Bromley, who, who, who developed the Rugby Team Impact Framework and thinking about how do we measure and evaluate development of researchers. Um, I think that-- And it-- But, but at the same time, recognising it's really difficult to show cause and effect when it comes to we, we have some sort of intervention, but what behaviour ch- change that results in further down the line is really difficult to, to identify, not least of which is because there are a number of other influences along the way- Mm

for, for people in terms of how they change. But I, I think that, so if, if I've got another frustration, that's it. I, I think we do a reasonable job, but I think we could do more.

Jim Baxter 00:26:42 Um, and then I think the other thing that frustrates me is the speed of change, the abil- the ability of, of, of... Well, I, I've seen it from a Leeds perspective, but I suspect it's not dissimilar across, across other large organisations, is that it becomes really difficult to, to change the organisation and it takes time, and it, um, that can be frustrating.

But that, to a degree, that's the nature of the beast. And un- until I, until the, it becomes imperative to actually increase that change, rate of change of speed, then I, I think we will continue as we are.

Now, if you've not been used to managing change at that speed You-- when you get to the high-pressure moments when you are having to do it at speed, you get it drastically wrong usually.

Ged Hall 00:27:47 And, and and I think, you know, that, that is my concern, um, certainly my concern at the moment in higher education, um, in the UK because of that large imperative to change because of the much, um, tighter financial situation at the moment.

And I think, you know, I don't know whether colleagues around the world who are listening to this might also be feeling, uh, be feeling something similar in their, uh, in their countries. I know somebody I interviewed last week in Canada said exactly the same thing in terms of the money is, has just disappeared, um, for higher education.

Is, is, is that being, at being, being honest about how the finances work and how we fit within that and, and that doesn't feel necessarily comfortable with me because that's not necessarily what-- how I viewed the purpose of higher education thirty years ago.

I think it's- Yeah ... it's a different, it's a different, yeah, environment now.

Yeah. What have I driven- Yeah ... in these different areas of being, being a researcher? What value have I, um, have I created?

Ged Hall 00:29:31 Yeah, absolutely. Um, so thinking about kind of those successes and, uh, and things that, that are, that you found frustrating over those, over those years, what advice have you got for us who are still working in the sector?

Um, uh, you know, maybe at Leeds or, or more broadly, internationally, nationally, you know, what other advice or would, would you give us all to kind of reflect on to maybe help us to navigate the next few years?

Get to know the people that, that, that engage in the provision, come on the workshops, commission the workshops, a s- a certain university strategy. Talk to the researcher about what they want and need, I, I think is, is, is a really key, key start- starting point. Um, I think that the thing that I've, that, that has re-emphasised...

Right, okay, so ju- let me jump sideways at the moment, for a moment. Same principles apply in student education. The whole- there's a whole push at Leeds for student-centred active learning, and it's, it's really about making the students the focus of, of, of the, the student education experience, not the person standing at the front delivering the knowledge.

I think, I think we need to, r- from a research perspective, uh, adopt similar principles. Um, and I think the result of, of me having, uh, spent some time formally and informally going in and interviewing and talking to people about researcher development, um, is that everybody's, everybody's different. The, the, the...

We, we talk about sheep-dipping people. So what the re- the, the reason pr- pr- providing one development programme for everybody that meets all their needs is, is a forlorn hope. It, it just doesn't happen. Um, I think, uh, you and, you and I have, uh, encountered this when it, on, when it comes to the research impact agenda.

You can have a really senior academic who's, who's never had to or never engaged with the impact agenda particularly, therefore they've got really experienced researcher-

But need to learn about the impact agenda. You can get p- you can get, um, post-docs who, who are involved in setting up spin-out companies, who are actually actively engaged in the impact agenda from, from the get-go.

Um, but they don't have the research experience, so they, they, they come with, people come with very different experiences. Uh, I've, I've talked to people who've come to the institution from large commercial organisations- Mm-hmm ... who've been through leadership programmes. So, so of, of, of, are used to leading and managing people.

Um, and, and then we've got se- we've got senior academics who can suddenly find themselves in a position where they're leading and managing people and, and, and never had to really engage with that before. Um, so I think, I think that the, uh... So what's, what's the, the point I'm coming to here is, is actually creating An offering provision that allows people to tailor it to meet their own needs, uh, and, and that people are able to, uh, treat themselves as whole academics.

Um, and, and, and, and being able to, to get the, the, the, um, the, the balance right. I think allied with that, it... Uh, um, how, how to say this? There's something about being compassionately honest with people. I, I go back to the point I made earlier about people being aware of what they're getting themselves into- Mm.

and I think, I think we, we need to, um, b- be, uh, compassionately honest with people, I think is the way that I would, I would ex- express that. Um, I think part of that is, uh, that, that being honest with people is getting to think about their careers earlier.

What the... So, so not only how's your research developing, but how's this developing you in, in your career?

What your, your, your interests, your passions, your values, does your... How do you make sure that whatever career you take on aligns with what interests you and motivates you? It's a lot easier to do a job where you're motivated and interested in it. Something about, on being

honest with people, something, something, uh, ar- around this is a notion of in research... So student education talks about the hidden curriculum. So somebody new coming into to universities who, who doesn't come from a background where people have, have done a university degree, actually understanding what a lecture is, what a seminar is, what a tutorial is, what office hours are.

If you've never encountered those before, which some children at school never do, what, what does that mean when somebody says, "Well, my office hours are..." What... So how am I supposed to engage with that? And I think the same is true in a research context, is, um, we talk, we talk about full economic costing of research grants.

What does that mean? How- Mm. How, how, uh, uh, somebody fir- applying to, for, for a grant for the first time, what does that mean? Um, so there's, there's something about understanding how the, the administration system works such that you can engage with that. I think there's, there's something about, um, how peer review works and, and, and, and how you engage with that.

Uh, the, the decisions, how decisions in the institution work when it comes to which people do we put support funding behind, which people don't we put funding behind. So, so trying to help people navigate that, um, the, the, the, the water that's not always that clear.

In fact, um, y- you know, the way, the way you phrase that is very much Taking care of people, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and providing a process and a, and a, and a set of practices and services that are all about taking care.

And I think, I think that part of that taking care, if we would, if we thought more about how we were gonna evaluate what we do, w- we do- Mm-hmm ... it would enable us to be clearer at the beginning about what we were trying to do We'll be able to measure it, and that would help people see both, okay, so if I engage with this, that's what I benefit from it.

Oh, and actually, there's evidence of this is what has happened as a result of doing that. I mean, you don't need me to tell you this. There's a whole ... Th-th-that I, in essence, I've just summarized your, b-b taken a view on your whole impact work. So now- Um, yes, doctor, heal thyself.

Jim Baxter 00:36:29 So the th- the thing I remember as a PGR was going on a graduate school.

Jim Baxter 00:36:42 Um, uh, uh, the time I d-

Jim Baxter 00:36:45 that- Oh, graduate school ... just in, just in case. Uh, so my, my memory of it was

there must have been, I don't know, oh, crumbs. There could've been as many as 50 of us, more, who went and spent a week at, uh, a, a university. We, we, we lived in student accommodation. We, we, we, um, were catered, and we were taken through a number of exercises that were designed to help us think about how we worked, not as individuals, but as, as, as a collaborative whole.

We ... I, I think the notion is very much you, you, as a PGR, have spent three-plus years focusing on one very small, very focused topic in a huge amount of depth, and the, the world of work we were gonna be going into was we were gonna be working in teams, in groups, with larger organisations. Um, so there's a series of exercises we went through to help us think about how we worked in teams, how do we, how do the teams work with each other.

Uh, my memory of it was, was, was a week. It could, it, it might not have been that long. Um, but it was the only ti- it was the only time as a, a, a researcher where I felt that we'd ... there was an opportunity to, uh, engage with and, uh, think about what- I did in, in, in the, the workplace, in the research space outside of my research team.

Um, there, there wasn't, there wasn't any university induction around research. There wasn't any, um, the... In fact, th- this, this may actually relate to, um, when the department originally was set up. It might have been when I was a PGR. Because there was, towards the end of being a PGR, I seem to recall we were, we were, we, we were encouraged to engage in, um, uh, workshops around how we taught as PGRs.

So, so I, I used to demonstrate in, in practical classes. Yeah. So there was, there was, there was a, a reasonably progressive Head of School at the time who, who, who thought, "Actually, there's an opportunity here." And that must have, although I probably didn't... I'm only now making the connection.

Jim Baxter 00:38:58 Um, so that's how I started out as a, as a, a, um, a, a PGR. I think that the, so the thing that... How's, how have things changed? So research culture, I think, is, is, is the thing that, that I've seen develop over time. Um, and not necessarily research culture as we talk about it today, uh, but, but research culture over, over the, the, the period of time.

So the, the first change is actually that one of, um, when I moved from my role in mechanical engineering into the department, I took on a role of supporting people develop around research and knowledge transfer. Mm. And now knowledge transfer at the time was the label that, that probably has become research impact.

So it was the first time that somebody had a role where we were actually starting to think about not only research, but the research impact we were having. Um, when I joined the department, we had, uh, we were, we were the hosts of the Vitae Yorkshire and Humberside hub. Um, and at the heart of that was providing workshops for PGRs.

Um, there was the Roberts funding that came along that- Mm. ... that, that was a huge investment in, in, um, the transferable skills training of researchers, both, both PGRs and postdocs. That, that came in. Um, uh, and I think that created a, a, a... Improved the capability. So I think it did two things. One, it, it raised the profile of, of researcher development, and I think it improved the capability, certainly at Leeds, to enable us to deliver it.

And, and, uh, you, you, you will have some views on this 'cause this, this is probably about the point in time when you, you got involved in, in, at, at Nottingham, I guess. Um-

Jim Baxter 00:41:30 And so there was research, so research impact. Uh, the Roberts funding. I... Okay, so yesterday at the University of Leeds, there was an event for technicians around research.

So, so, so you can see that the, the, it, things are, have developed to actually recognise that it's not just about PGRs and researchers, but the broader, um, community that delivers the research is, is important. So I think that there's a cultural change there. There are other cultural changes around, um, you and I have delivered workshops on responsible research innovation.

So are we doing the right sorts of research in the right way? Um- Mm. Uh, before that, there was, uh, a focus on research ethics. Are, are we actually thinking not only about the research we're doing, but, but are we, uh, what the impact on that has on society, um, more broadly? Um, of, uh, doing research for the right reasons-

... I, I think, I think is what that's about. I think we need to recognise, having said all of that, all of that change is, I think, really, really valuable. There is a, um, potentially an increased burden on, on the people leading the research, that it's not just about doing the research anymore. You need to take into account a number of other Factors.

Um, and I think it's difficult to get past the bureaucracy at times if you're on the ground in it. But the real value in amongst doing it, all of this, is that it, it should incru- improve the quality of the research that's done for the benefit of all.

Other than my experience of going on a graduate school- Yeah ... um, or as they were called, grad schools. Mine was, mine was five days at the University of Sheffield. Uh, and they've since knocked down that hall of residence interestingly. But yeah, i- amazing changes, and thankfully now we are recognising other people involved in the research activity, not just those doing the primary tasks of gathering data, analyzing it, all of those things.

But, um, you know, thankfully, I was actually in a research group where, um, where the technicians that produced the kit and helped us to run it often were on the named authors on the paper, and that was when I was, you know, when I was a PhD student. And I kind of... When I kind of suddenly realised that not other pe- pe- lots of other places weren't doing that, you know, when the CRediT taxonomy was coming in, I was like, but some places did actually recognise that so many other people were contributing, you know, writing the code.

You know, now we have that focus on research software engineers.

Ged Hall 00:44:33 Absolutely ...

Ged Hall 00:44:38 Yeah

and

Ged Hall 00:44:39 So Jim, um, we've taken a, a good look back. We're recording this, um, in, uh, in more or less the middle of, middle of June. You're, as I said at the beginning, you'll be retiring at the end of next month. So what, uh, what are your plans, um, for that retirement now that researchers, research leadership, research leadership and organisational development are, uh, uh, are, are kind of disappearing into the mist?

Um, and also, yeah, so what, what's gonna take up your time other than that and being the amazing colleague you've been?

I th- I think one of the things that I've, I've learnt during my career that's relevant here is that I need to be, uh, I need to understand what I wanna get out of it and be focused. So don't tr- don't try and do everything all at once. I need to pick something to, to, to, to make, um Which I'm, I'm thinking about at the moment.

Uh, uh, i- in, in discussion with my wife, um, I think we identified that we haven't been to the theater for ages. Wouldn't it be nice if we started going to the theater? Uh, you, you, um... I know you enjoy your cricket. Mm. Can I actually find the time to, to go and attend some sporting events? I think, I think would be, uh, something that would be, um, nice to do.

The, the idea of actually going to Headingley and sitting and watching a county game in the sun with a, with a picnic actually is quite appealing. Um, I'd, I'd like to, uh, spend more time with, with, uh, my parents, with family more broadly, which, which hopefully will be an opportunity. Although, um, if I lo- reflect back on my parents' experience of retirement, they were probably busier when they retired than when they were, when they were working.

Um, and, and then I think that, uh, and I, I, I need to work out how to do this. I'll be, I'll be really interested to see how the work of the team moves on. I mean, the, the... one of the things that, that I, I haven't mentioned as we've spoken is, um, the research leadership package that, that I developed, and that, that was very much came out of, um, thinking about what do people need.

They all want something different, so actually let's give them something they can tailor for themselves. Um, uh, so what I'm interested in, in, in, in is how, how what I hopefully have, have helped influence and create a space to, to develop over, uh, the last 20-plus years is, is to see how that, that develops and grows in the future.

and you can come and be the visitor at Old Trafford-

Ged Hall 00:47:57 with me. Uh, and we can, we can see what each other's pavilion is like. 'Cause I quite like the Old Trafford one, but I've never been to the Headingley one.

Ged Hall 00:48:09 Isn't it just? Yes. Used to go quite regularly as a PhD student to, uh, to the Western Terrace.

Jim Baxter 00:48:37 Um, uh, Ged, thank you very much for, for talking to me, and, and thank you to those who are listening.

Thanks for listening, and here's to you and your research culture