With claims that we’re working in a world designed for extroverts, it’s important we understand how to make our workplaces more inclusive, so that we can all thrive.

In this episode of HR Coffee Time, Fay is joined by Tom Cleary, Founder of Introverts & Co. Tom shares how to thrive at work as an introvert, and busts myths you may have heard before about introversion. He also explains practical strategies to help set yourself, your colleagues and your workplaces up for success. Some of the many things he covers include:

• Understanding introversion: definition and misconceptions
• The impact of introversion in the workplace
• Tom’s personal journey: from introversion to advocacy
• Why introversion is such an important topic for us all to be aware of & learn more about
• Creating inclusive meetings & team building events for introverts
• Strengths and challenges of being an introvert
• Strategies for introverts to thrive in the workplace
• The importance of identifying personal values

Useful Links

• Connect with Fay on LinkedIn
• Fay’s website: Bright Sky Career Coaching
• Connect with Tom on LinkedIn
• Tom’s website
• Tom’s free online community: Introverts and co

Buy the Book Recommendations

(Disclosure: the book link is an affiliate link which means that Fay will receive a small commission from Amazon if you make a purchase through it)

Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking, by Susan Cain

Other Relevant HR Coffee Time Episodes

• Episode 43: The one thing that will boost your resilience throughout your HR career, with Tom Cleary
• Episode 47: Discovering your values to help your HR career, with Zoe Hawkins
• Episode 75: What psychometrics are, how you can use them & why they’re so helpful, with Sue Colton
• Episode 110: Why facilitation skills can help your HR career & how to develop them, with Kirsty Lewis
• HR Coffee Time inclusion playlist (on Spotify)
• HR Coffee Time inclusion playlist (online)

Looking For the Transcript?

You can find the transcript on this page of the Bright Sky Career Coaching website.

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If you found this episode of HR Coffee Time helpful, please rate and review it on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. This video shows you how to rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts (if you’re not sure how to do it). If you're kind enough to leave a review, let Fay know so she can say thank you. You can always reach her at: fay@brightskycareercoaching.co.uk.

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Welcome back to HR Coffee Time. It's great to have you here. I'm your host, Fay Wallis, a career and executive coach with a background in HR, and I'm also the creator of the HR Planner. I've made this podcast especially for you, to help you have a successful and fulfilling HR or people career, without working yourself into the ground.

I'll share links to both versions of the HR planner in the show notes for you. And I really hope you enjoy using it. If you decide to either download the PDF version or treat yourself to the hard back version. But now let me talk to you about the main focus of this episode. I am thrilled to have the wonderful Tom Cleary here again as a guest.

He talks to us about thriving as an introvert at work. Tom was last on the show back in episode 43, which was called The One Thing That Will Boost Your Resilience throughout your HR career, and it's one of my favorite guest episodes. Tom has been working in the wellbeing and personal development space for several years, and he has a particular interest in social wellbeing.

human connection, and introversion. After working with introverted clients, both one to one and in business settings, he set up a free online community called Introverts Co. to help other introverts find a safe, welcoming space where people can feel understood and also learn more about their strengths and skills.

Whether you identify as an extrovert, introvert, or Amber Vert, or perhaps you're not really sure where you sit, or you're not that keen on labels. I hope you're going to enjoy listening to the episode and take a lot from it, because I truly believe that understanding ourselves better and understanding the people around us is an important foundation for personal and professional growth, and it helps us to create inclusive workplaces where people are able to thrive.

Let's go ahead and meet Tom now.

Welcome to the show, Tom. It is so wonderful to have you back. We've been plotting and planning this for months now.

We have. It's a real pleasure to be back. I think you know that the first time I came was my first ever podcast interview, and it was a big step as an introvert out of my comfort zone, and I'm so grateful I have your thank you card behind me still for the past couple of years now as a reminder of when I say no to something, try and say yes instead.

Oh, well, that is so wonderful to know you've still got the thank you card. It's warming my heart to be able to see it behind you on the screen. Everyone listening won't be able to see it, but I can see it sitting there right behind Tom. And Tom, we're talking about thriving at work as an introvert today, and I always think it's a good idea to start these sorts of conversations off with a definition, especially as I know there's a lot of misunderstanding around the term introvert.

So, for my first question, can I ask you to define it for us?

You can. Um, this alone is a topic I find really interesting, Faye, and I'll try not to go too far down the rabbit hole with this one. Each time I read a book or listen to a podcast on introversion, they tend to sum it up as one specific thing, which I think can sometimes lose some of its meaning and can cause some issues, especially if somebody doesn't identify with that aspect of introversion but calls themselves an introvert.

The thing is there's so many definitions out there, both in research and psychology, but also almost every single person I've spoken to and worked with about this has seemed to create their own internal version of this based on what they've heard and then their own experiences. And partly this is because the history of the term has had a lot of changes over time.

It's a whole podcast in itself, but most of the terms are based on how sensitive somebody is to either external stimulation. That's been still the most popular one for decades now. We see it in memes of things like social batteries running down, things like that. And then more recently, we see it in terms of sensitivity to dopamine.

To risk taking and reward. So basically different level sensitivity would be one of the key bits here. When I work with people, I tend to describe it as people who are more inward looking, very rich in a world, tend to be quite thoughtful and reflective, often preferring to think internally and then speak rather than people who are more.

Extroverted who tend to want to speak in order to process and then often finding that, um, certain environments will be quite draining. So finding times to have quieter, uh, situations or alone time in order to kind of recharge, I suppose. And then there's a level of personal preference in terms of who we call introverts and who we don't.

I'm always cautious about assuming or imposing that term. I love the term. I use it for myself a lot. Other people will just say they are more introverted. There's a long winded way of saying, there are some general aspects in terms of sensitivity which are quite common. But I tend to see it as a gateway term, something which leads people to self reflect, to analyse and discover more about themselves, about co workers and families, and therefore hopefully doing better in both work and personal life.

So, sensitivity and then self exploration.

It's brilliant to have that really detailed explanation, Tom. Thank you. Because as HR and people professionals, I know that most people listening, people are so important to them and understanding people is just so key. It's so crucial to be able to do our jobs really well.

So whether we identify as being introverted or extroverted, it's great to get a better understanding about it. And as you're talking, I can sense the passion and. interest coming off of you, it's coming off of you in waves as you're talking about it. So I would love to ask you, where does this real interest in supporting introverts to thrive at work come from?

I am passionate, so please do shut me up at any point when I go too far, because I tend to speak too much with things like this, but I'm somebody who scores very horribly themselves on introversion scales. I'm normally in the mid to high 90s and I've been labelled as an introvert since I was a young child and I identified, I think, with it when I heard descriptions of it.

The problem with it is I've also been misjudged because of that. I've had people make assumptions about the way I act or think and I found it caused issues both in the workplace and in relationships, both social and romantic. And then over time working in mental health and wellbeing and working with both businesses, charities, schools, individuals, I was seeing very similar themes being reflected by so many other people.

So I started to develop a specialism in introversion and it ties really well into other things I have a focus in like social wellbeing, self compassion, digital wellbeing, and even my history of fascination with human relationships. So studying, falling in love at university. running a dating agency, things like that.

And then it's such a large number of people that can potentially affect other people who identify as introverts or introverted or people who have those in their life. So it's a combination of my own kind of experience, seeing other people as well, and seeing the impact it can make when people start exploring.

There's so much that you've said there that I could dive into and ask you more about. The first thing I think I'd like to ask you about is the introversion scale. For anyone listening, who's thinking, Oh, I wonder if there is some sort of assessment I can take to see if perhaps, you know, with a scientific definition, I am an introvert or not.

Is there a scale or a resource that you would recommend trying?

There's quite a recommendation is a tricky one, I think, because they all measure particular elements of introversion. I will pop into the comments here that I set up a community for this reason. I host a few scales within that because I can put it into context for people.

and say look, rather than taking this as it's labeled you as 86 percent and therefore that is what you are, also try this one because they tend to score, some of them score higher, some of them score lower, some of them are written in the 50s, and they take into account very different things, so I tend not to recommend any of them out of context, but if you google introversion scale There are, there are hundreds out there, MBTI will have, um, elements of it as well in it.

But it's something that I, I really encourage people to do more than, more than two or three, because we can get locked into the outcomes a bit too much. So that's an annoying answer, I know, but I prefer to give that kind of context based one. It's not

an annoying answer at all. It sounds like a very thoughtful, well considered answer that shows that you really care about the person who might be thinking about doing this.

And it means that I'm going to have to ask you about your wonderful community then. Do you want to tell us a little bit about it?

Yeah, so I set it up this year. It's called Introverts Co. The name comes from there being people in there who don't use or like the label, uh, introvert, but they have very similar aspects of their personalities.

People who are very into empathy, people who are HSP, so highly sensitive people, as well. And it's a free platform for people just to explore introversion, to connect with other people. And to, um, learn more about this topic in a really safe, supportive space.

Fabulous. And I will make sure that I put a link to that in the show notes as well.

If anyone wants to take a look at it. You're very welcome. And you've. Already started touching on this, Tom, but if I could ask you for a little bit more detail, that would be fantastic. And that is, why do you think introversion and understanding it is such an important topic for us all to be aware of and to learn more about?

I think there's a lot of reasons that in both society and workplaces and even things like politics, historically and still today, will value and approve of extroversion over introversion. And I've seen this continuously in my, my business clients. It can often lead to people being overlooked, feeling undervalued.

Increased risk of mental health issues as well. Um, isolation, which is becoming a bigger and bigger topic these days, leaving careers. And from a business or side point of view, it impacts on recruitment, team building massively. So many stories on team building issues with introversion, extroversion, and ambiversion as well.

Employee productivity, turnover, all sorts of things. And then because. We don't just exist in the workplace. In relationships in general, whether it's colleagues, friends, family, partners, there can be so many misunderstandings and clashes which are avoidable. And then I see relationships thriving when they understand introversion a bit better.

I also think that sometimes misunderstandings can hold people back in other ways. So for example, I had a client who said they were an introvert, but they were struggling with certain things in their life. When we explored this, it turned out that actually they loved being around other people, they needed to have that social aspect, but social anxiety, which is a different thing, was holding them back.

So just exploring it sometimes means we get the right support and assistance. Um, there. And I, although there's lots of different, um, ways of measuring personality and, and character and strengths, I've often found that looking introversion in particular has a, a really big outcome. So that's why I sort of focused down on that along with my personal side as well.

As you were explaining all of that it really hammered home for me the fact that focusing on this can help us in so many different parts of our lives, not just in a work context. Obviously we're talking about it today primarily in a work context, but it made me think immediately of one of my children who I would say definitely is more introverted than I am.

I'm an extrovert and I do that thinking whilst talking thing that you mentioned earlier. I remember talking to a team member years ago, who's more reflective than me and probably would identify themselves as an introvert. And I was talking and talking and talking and he said, don't worry Faye. I know that you do your thinking out loud.

That's the first time I realized it. But yes, if we have family members around us who have got different preferences and different ways they're energized and different ways they like to spend their time, then I think this is a a great thing to be learning more about, as well as for work, of course, talking about work.

One thing that leapt out at me as you were talking just then was about team building. And you said, Oh my goodness, I have got so many. Things I could say about team building. Could I just press you on that a little bit more? I'm fascinated to hear how this can be a challenge for team building.

Yes, in fact, it's happened this week, Weasley. The biggest example happened a few months ago when I was working with a larger firm who had just taken over a smaller one. And the larger firm very much had a culture and attracted staff into it, which were very outgoing, very extroverted in the traditional sense of that. So love particular activities when it was all about being sociable and going bowling or doing axe throwing and stuff like that.

And then the smaller company. different industry which was related and they were much more introverted and what they did as team building and culture building was very different and at the beginning there was this big clash of why are these new people not joining in why are they not taking part in team activities in away days they're making excuses about things and when they actually asked what sort of things would really work for those people it was so different and they've now got a mixture of different things which appeal to different people and it's working far better.

But I see this on an, I would say probably every other week, where whether it's a school, a business, a charity, they're doing a lot of work on trying to, especially now we've got hybrid working, bring people together with what I would call a the traditional away days and traditional team building activities or even within meetings.

The things we do as icebreakers and the things or the way that we run meetings are geared towards people who do tend to think out loud, who prefer that social thing. And as we start bringing in different elements, the teams, first of all, more people turn up and take part in things, but there's a greater understanding as well about how people are different, which I then see going into when there's a meeting, which involves different character types, it goes so much better than it used to as well.

What kind of activities then were the people who were more introverted, what kind of team building activities had they been developing and using amongst themselves before they were merged in with this other team?

So they were doing things like, um, having gaming activities, or things which involved, um, things like quizzes.

Things which, although even then, you can split it into ones where people are all, you're going to be asked to perform on stage, or I had one example of people who were asked to do kind of a dance, and straight away people were like, well that's not really me. I'd quite like it to be a little bit more...

Reflective intellectual, can we do like a music round? Can we sort of talk about different things about that? Games or things involving imagination, things involving that ability to have some time to think and then come back to it. One of the biggest differences was. Introverts or people who are more towards that side of the scale were either not being given a chance to, uh, to think and engage in the way they needed to, so they end up being left out, or they were doing worse in things like quizzes or stuff like that, or it was extremely sociable, very noisy environments.

Rather than going somewhere which was quiet, you could hear each other talk and think. So even the, the setting. of it made a really big difference. And if we also bring into it, not that they're the same thing, but you tend to see some correlations, things like social anxiety, really big groups in really busy settings on a Friday night is unlikely to attract the quieter side of your team.

Whereas if doing something during a weekday in a quieter environment where you can, you can have people that you can talk to and also spaces where you can go away and be by yourself for a few minutes if you need to, it makes it much more inclusive.

It sounds so much more inclusive taking that approach, and you've got me really interested in the meetings aspect that you were talking about.

We recently had Kirsty Lewis on the show for episode 110, and she was talking about how to design Really, really good online workshops. She shared some brilliant tips. So for anyone who'd like to listen to that who hasn't already, I definitely recommend hopping back and taking a listen to it. So it would be great to hear from you, Tom, what some of your tips are around running meetings that are inclusive for introverts and extroverts instead of just having them steered or tilted a bit more towards extroverts.

Yes, and I might listen to the episode you've mentioned. That sounds really interesting. It's something where there's an assumption sometimes in meetings that if somebody is not immediately engaging and talking, they're either not engaged with it or they have nothing to say. So an acknowledgement that people will have different processing times there.

And sometimes what I see happen with meetings which are, and they tend to be, Shared or run by extroverts. The moment that a question is put out there, somebody will think out loud. That will then steer the conversation, and then the people who are sitting back reflecting and going, Oh, hold on. I haven't even put my side across yet.

So, slowing things down a little bit, so that when we have the people who, and there's nothing wrong with it, can be extremely useful. The external thinkers and processors have done that bit. Fantastic. But let's not then steer the whole meeting with that. Let's then bring in the people. Who might have needed some time to, to reflect and to analyze internally before that.

I also think given the option to have people know exactly what the agenda is to be able to read things in advance of the meeting so they can reflect before that happens as well is really powerful. And if some companies are now taking the first few minutes of a meeting to make sure we all read the documents in silence so that we do process that sort of thing.

But having dynamics where there's things like smaller groups as well. So if you've got a large meeting, breaking it down into talking to in pairs or into fours, where people can generate and grow ideas and then feed back to the main group. Because otherwise you do, you do one of two things. You either tend to not bring in.

The thoughts and experiences of those who are more introverted and process things a little bit differently, or you completely disengage them and they end up as people who go, there's no point me even thinking about this because I know that my, my thoughts won't be valued or even taken into account. I'm just going to go with the flow on this one here.

And I've seen. But with one of my clients, they've started to change their, their meeting structures to be a bit more inclusive with things like this. And the introverts be like, Oh, I'm not, I'm not used to even needing to think about things. I've just gone with what people have said. And they're having to almost unlearn their own habits that have been taking place before as

well. And so much of that advice is beneficial for. Everyone, it's such great best practice for inclusion, full stop, I think, if I think back to some of the guest episodes I recorded about neurodiversity, I know this is something that came up then as well. And the fact that these sorts of practices can really help other people who are in the room as well, not necessarily.

Just introverts. It can also help people who are neurodiverse. One tactic that I really liked that I only learned this year, and I actually learned it from Kirsty, the other guest. I feel like I'm her fangirl at the moment. I attended some training that she ran about. about delivering really good online workshops and she used a technique, I hope she doesn't mind me sharing this after she shared so many brilliant tips on the other episode.

She used a technique where she would ask a question and she would say, feel free to put your voice in the room. Or write in the chat box. And I thought that was genius, because it meant that people who do feel comfortable speaking up straight away, who may be more extroverted, could do that. And people who felt more reflective and actually didn't want to put their voice in the room and speak up in front of everybody else, could do that.

write something in the chat box and she was monitoring it. So she'd make sure she came back to it and then could involve that contribution as well. So I think that that could work really well with some of the suggestions that you're making as well.

It does. And I, I do something similar in my workshops where depends on the audience as well about how I will structure things.

But I know that I'm somebody who, when I'm attending, I can be quite quiet and sit back and I, I like to engage in a different way. So I give the option of those who want to, again, contribute verbally or in the chat box, but I take it in a different way as well. I'll always have private chat enabled. I'll tell people, if you don't feel confident in talking to people and even in the chat box there, send it to me directly and I'll read it without your name on there.

Because it might be an experience, which is quite, given my work, especially being in mental health, it might be quite a personal experience. I don't want to have their name attached to it. In very small groups, there can be a lot of pressure of, well, we know it's one of three people here who's talking about that.

So we, we tend to do that. It's like passing a note to a teacher. I suppose in some ways. And a lot of the stuff that I do does come from my teaching background. It's like, how do we make the quietest, shyest people in that room, at that point, children, when I was working with them. And often it works really well with adults.

So I'm so pleased that your expert on meetings is validating what I'm doing. So that's, that's really nice to hear that I'm doing, I'm doing the right thing with that in that case. It's

brilliant to hear. I love that. Idea. I've got it visualized in my mind now of passing a note to the teacher. I'm going to really remember that now.

It's one of those things that helps it stick in your mind, I think, if you've got a great description around it like that. So thank you for adding that as well. Another fantastic tool that I can add to my toolbox and everyone else listening can as well to use that private chat. It had never occurred to me to ever try that before, Tom.

And it makes me think I would love to attend one of your workshops because I have never actually been a participant so if you ever decide to run a workshop that's open to the public please do let me know and I'll book myself on so I can see you in action.

It'll be a pleasure and the ones I do for the community are sometimes open and we have the very initial screen says if you want to join with your camera off, your mic off and you're sitting back around and listen.

Or you want to be on camera and talking out loud or anything in between. You're very welcome here and you can change your preference throughout the meetings. I want people to, they're often on Fridays and I know sometimes we feel burnt out with lots of video calls and things. And I often get probably 2. 30 join off camera. who aren't saying anything. Halfway through I'll start a chat box and later on probably half of those will come onto camera and start speaking. There's no expectation to, but it's creating that safe environment where people can choose what works for them and then build up over time if they want to as well.

Another great tip when I know there's often a lot of pressure for people to turn their cameras on. And that makes me think of the next question that I was hoping to ask you, I think it may play into this, which is, are there some particular strengths and challenges that come with being more introverted, either in the workplace or beyond work?

Yes, and I'll try and keep my answer not too long on this one, apologies if I do. One of the main ones is the misconceptions, the stereotypes and assumptions that come here. In fact, and people who know me know it's a pet peeve of mine, if you google introversion, It will start off by saying the quality of being shy.

Most research will state that shyness is quite different from introversion, and yet we often lump it together. You can get shy extroverts, people who love being around people, but maybe feel a bit awkward about that. You can have really outgoing, sociable, confident introverts who just need to have some recharge time afterwards.

So assumptions about introversion meaning things like anti social, shy, Unable to perform certain tasks, can't go public speaking. I actually work with a lot of introverts who are in what society would consider to be very outgoing extroverted jobs. I've had people say things like, well you can't do that as an introvert.

I used to be like, I've cured that, thanks, I can fix you too. No, please don't. I, I, Very happy as an introvert. And I'm often told that I can't be an introvert because I work with, um, groups of strangers every single day. I can be very outgoing, and I was nicknamed Tigger in my teacher training because I can be quite bouncy and animated with that.

And people are like, well, there's no way you're introverted. Ask me to join you at lunch, after this morning's workshop, and you'll see my introversion side come out, because I will politely turn that down, and go for a walk by myself outside somewhere, to recharge for the afternoon, or walk back to a train station by myself.

So, assumptions are really, really key, and I think also, There's a challenge in terms of people limiting themselves, especially in the workplace. So I hear things like, well, you know what, I know it's important for my job, but I can't do networking because I'm an introvert, or I can't do public speaking. And I say this as somebody who used to be...

physically and mentally unable to talk to anyone outside extreme social anxiety. So I recognize that there often is a challenge about certain things, but there are ways of making it work for almost everybody out there. So thinking about both assumptions and self imposed limitations. And then being overlooked in your career is a really common theme.

I would say 10 people I speak to will talk about losing out on promotions, on career progression, because often they are less keen to self promote or be in the spotlight. And the last thing I'll say about challenges is it's something where We need to build in recharge time sometimes. If we are working in very people heavy environments, a lot of my HR clients would, would fit into this group.

We need to physically book in what I call non people time. So if I've got, um, a whole day, for example, of working with a very intense, um, topic and lots of people, you'll see in my diary at some point the next day, non people time or recharge time in order to recover from what I call a people hangover. So there's, there's a few, there are a few issues in terms of challenges in the workplace with this.

There's a lot about time management when it comes to energy management, and I've never talked about that on the podcast before. That's the first time that it's naturally come up in conversation, but it's a really helpful, important thing to be aware of, I think. And I could probably record a whole episode on this as in how understanding when you're at your most energised and when you're not and how you can plan your work around that and structure your day and your activities around that can really help you when it comes to getting stuff done that you really want to get done.

I don't think I'd ever considered having this away from people time. But that definitely feels like it fits with that concept really well. Thank you for talking us through all of that and having told us what some of the challenges are and then teasing us with one little solution, one tactic that can be very powerful.

Can I ask you to share with us what more introverted people can do to make the most of their strengths and overcome some of the challenges that they might find themselves up against?

Yes, and I would also add, by the way, to make it balanced that I know people who are very expert who have to build in people time, if they do, for example, a whole day of content creation, things like that.

So it does go both ways. But I love that you're doing that energy management part. That's fantastic.

As you people can't see this as Tom just said that I was pointing at myself because I work from home and almost all of my work is over. Zoom nowadays. I, even if I've been talking to people on Zoom, I desperately crave people time.

And that's where the introverts in my family will be really surprised. Like, Oh, you want to go out again? You want to see some friends again? Like, yes, I just have to, I just have to, because I know that I'll feel better and more energized, even if I'm feeling tired by spending time with other people.

That's going to actually lift my energy. I love that. But sorry, I've just drawn you away from answering the question. So I'm sure everyone is dying to hear now. What is it that people who identify as being more introverted can do to make the most of their strengths and overcome some of the challenges?

The phrase I tend to use is about leaning into what is authentically you. Now, I also cringe. While saying that, it sounded quite cheesy, and a part of my brain also goes, but we have different versions of our authentic selves, and we do, that's a different topic for, from today. But it is more about living your life as the person that you want to be, rather than what society or the people expect of you, with a caveat, as long as that's providing you with what's important to you in life.

Part of that goes into one of my favourite topics, which is self compassion. So being kind to ourselves, treating ourselves the way that people, uh, we do people we care about as well. There's a lot of crossovers between introversion and self compassion, but one of the key ones is to actually embrace the strengths we have as people who are more introverted or introverts, which often we tend to dismiss.

Or take for granted, or we assume quite deep down sometimes that they aren't as valuable as those that are linked to extroversion. Along with this, it's about recognizing the difference between discomfort because you are growing and developing in a certain way, which is helpful to you, and the discomfort which comes from things which pull your energy away.

It could be certain situations, could be certain people or groups, and analyzing, well, am I able to change that? And often we can't. So instead, how do I manage that energy levels within that? One of the problems I have, like, I run a, um, a session called Our Quiet Superpowers in my community on what our strengths are.

And one of the things that come up is people can list loads like listening and forming deep relationships and being very able to reflect with, with other people and themselves. But continuously, what happens is people will go, yeah, I'm great at this. But, and they'll undermine everything, and we tend to see that more in strengths which are linked to introversion than we do with extroversion.

So celebrating our, our own strength is really important. Can I add one more thing in Fay? I know I talk a lot, sorry.

Please do, and it's wonderful hearing you talk. It's definitely not too much at all. Please keep going.

The other thing I would say is to be really aware of when labels are useful and when they're not.

So in the community, the logo that I've had designed, um, it has a A box around it was broken at the corners. And the reason I have that is because sometimes using labels on putting things into boxes can be really helpful. It can enable us to get support, to feel connected, part of a group, to be more understood.

At other times. The labels and boxes can be incredibly limiting, both from other people and ourselves, and so we want to break that box sometimes. So I get people very often to think about when a label, whether it's introvert or whatever it might be, is actually leading them towards something useful and where it's holding them back as well.

Wahat a great visualisation. I think two key things I'm taking away from today, Tom, are the passing the note to the teacher exercise, and then also having the little broken corners on the books. Such a great thing for us all to remember, because as always, with any advice that leans towards helping us be more inclusive, the advice is helpful for everyone.

I'm sure that anyone is at risk of putting themselves in a box sometimes. So I hope for everyone listening today, you're going to rub out any little corners you may have been putting in a box and boxing yourself in. You can do so much more. Then you may be giving yourself credit for and now sadly we are coming towards the end of our time together today So it's time for me to ask you the question.

I ask nearly every guest who comes on the show Which is would you like to either share a non fiction book recommendation with us? Or would you prefer to share a confidence building tip?

this is something which I remember from last time I had to analyze for for this one play because There are a lot of books out there on introversion and a lot of them are there just to make money, and I think that they will lean into a particular element of it and go, this is what the truth is, there's no black, there's no grey area, it's all black and white.

And so there are very few I recommend. Susan Cain's Quiet, I still recommend to people, it's a really, uh, sort of in depth book to explore as a starting point. But I actually think people are better off doing some values exploration, finding a book on, on values, doing exercise on values. So they can identify what's really important to them in life.

And then once they've done that, most of my clients find it much easier to go, right, this is the thing I'm leaning into. with qualities I had taken for granted before, and these are the strengths I need to work on either personally or professionally to meet the other values I have. So my suggestion would be to do any work you can on identifying values.

We tend to do it as a business more often than our own personal ones, so values work would be my suggestion to be honest. Well, I

promise that I didn't prime Tom to say that because very handily, Tom, in my HR planner that I bring out every year, which, oh, at the time of us recording this, I have just released it for 2024.

And it's such a relief because it has been so much work this year, where I've been testing out new activities to include in that. There is a values exercise. So if you're listening and thinking, Oh gosh, I've no idea what my values are, then please feel free to download a free PDF version of the HR planner.

It has got the values exercise in there, or you can treat yourself to a hardback version. They're both available on my website, which is bright sky career coaching. And I will also pop links. In the show notes, but I don't want to plug my own planner too much. So I will ask you, Tom, is there a book that you would recommend perhaps that focuses in on values?

There's not actually, I tend to think that we, I'm always contrary, sorry Faye, I think sometimes what ends up happening is, if we end up reading a book about it, it ends up on the shelf or on the desk and doesn't get finished, or people become so deep into it they start questioning everything about that.

I think starting with something really simple. Um, like something you might find on a planner that you've got for the HR teams out there is actually a far better way of doing it. Something which is a one page or a short reflection exercise is often better as a starting point. If you want to explore values later, that's great, but I think that the starting point of going with what we're prompted to by a short exercise is actually better often than anything else is.

That's great to hear. And I've also thought, as we were talking, I have talked about values on the podcast before. I had a guest called Zoe Hawkins, and she did a live values elicitation exercise with me, where she drew out my values while we were recording the podcast. So for anyone who thinks, oh, I don't really want to look at a page in a planner, you could also hop back and listen to that episode.

I'll make sure that I put that in the show notes too. But sadly, that means we are at the end of our time together today, Tom. It is always such a joy seeing you and talking to you. Thank you for coming back on the show again. We're all so grateful that you're here and for anyone who has been listening and would love to learn more about you and your work, what is the best way of them doing that?

Thank you Fay. Uh, LinkedIn is normally the best. I've had some lovely contacts from people from the last episode, so LinkedIn. I'm Tom Cleary coaching and my websites, I've got two. I've got my main one, which is tom cleary.co uk, and then the free community is introverts and.co.

Fantastic. And as always, I will pop those links in the show notes as well. So thank you so much, Tom. It's been wonderful having you here today.

Pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me. I really appreciate it.

That brings us to the end of today's episode. I really hope you enjoyed hearing from Tom. If anything from the episode particularly resonated with you, please do let us know.

It's always fabulous to hear from you. You can reach us both on LinkedIn, and I've shared links to both of our profiles in the show notes. There were a few other HR Coffee Time episodes that you might... Find helpful and interesting if you've enjoyed listening to this one. The ones I already mentioned were episode 43.

The one thing that will boost your resilience throughout your HR career. That one was with Tom as well. Episode 47, discovering your values to help your HR career. And that was with guest Zoe Hawkins. And then episode 110, last week's episode, which was why facilitation skills can help your HR career and how to develop them, with Kirsty Lewis.

But there is another one I wanted to let you know about as well, and that one is called episode 75, what psychometrics are, how you can use them, and why they're so helpful, with Sue Colton. Because if, like me, you're interested in profiling tools and assessments. that can give us insights into different behavioural traits.

I think you'll enjoy hearing that one from Sue. And if inclusion is a topic that's close to your heart, I've created a playlist for you. It's called HR Coffee Time, Create an Equitable, Diverse and Inclusive Workplace. I'll share a link to it on Spotify and a link where you can listen to it online if you don't use Spotify.

If you haven't had a playlist before, it's just a collection of all of the episodes of HR Coffee Time that I've released so far that touch on EDI topics and I add to it. So as the podcast goes forward, any other episodes that I create that are to do with inclusion or equity and diversity, I'll make sure that I add them as well.

So it's a live playlist that's constantly being updated. As always, it would be amazing if you're happy to rate and review HR Coffee Time on whichever podcasting platform you're listening to it on right now. Or, if you have a friend or colleague you think would benefit from the podcast, please do share it with them, because I would love to help as many HR and people professionals as possible with this free weekly show.

Thank you so much, have a great week, and I'm looking forward to being back again next Friday with the next episode for you.