In this powerful Christmas episode, Anna Kent - a humanitarian aid worker, NHS nurse and midwife - reflects on her experiences working in some of the world's most challenging environments, including South Sudan, Haiti and Bangladesh. She offers an intimate look at the difficulties of providing maternity care in conflict zones and refugee camps, shedding light on the trauma faced by women in these regions.

Anna speaks candidly about her personal journey, the emotional toll of working in these high-stress situations and her mission to ensure all women have access to gold-standard maternity care. She opens up about her struggles with PTSD and the challenges of reintegrating into normal life after such intense work.

This episode is a moving testament to Anna's resilience, compassion and dedication to advocating for women's health rights in the direst circumstances. An inspiring and sobering reminder of the ongoing fight for equitable maternity care worldwide.

*Trigger Warning* Birthing in extreme situations, birth trauma, maternal loss, baby loss and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

In This Episode:

[00:00] Teaser quote.

[02:20] Introducing Anna Kent, the 'Frontline Midwife'.

[04:46] Anna's journey to humanitarian work.

[08:35] Her first mission - the challenges and realities of working in South Sudan.

[11:11] Honouring the Lady on the Plane. The importance of telling women's stories.

[17:12] James: Anna's larger-than-life colleague.

[20:10] Life and work in Tam, South Sudan.

[25:54] Everyone deserves gold access to maternity care.

[30:33] Encounter with a black mamba!

[31:26] Life in a tent: a different perspective.

[32:53] The struggle of returning home.

[33:13] The harsh realities of humanitarian work - trauma and being scared to share.

[34:44] Hitting rock bottom.

[36:55] Missions to Haiti and Bangladesh - responsible for 30,000 Rohingya refugees.

[38:51] Feelings of powerlessness.

[39:44] The impact of PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder). Flashbacks.

[42:43] Seeking help - finding solace in Buddhism and therapy.

[48:51] The pressure to save every life. Moral injury.

[54:42] Parenting and self-awareness.

1. Key Takeaways:
2. Anna Kent's Instagram page to find out more about Anna and her work.
3. Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF) provide vital medical care and humanitarian assistance to victims of conflict, natural disasters, epidemics or healthcare exclusion in more than 70 countries.
4. What To Expect article on Cephalopelvic Disproportion (C.P.D.), a condition where the baby's head or body is too large to fit through the mother's pelvis.
5. Blue MumDays Episode 17 'When Birth Leads to Trauma', with Dr. Rebecca Moore of Make Birth Better.
6. MIND Charity information on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (P.T.S.D.), a mental health problem you may develop after experiencing traumatic events.
7. Anna's book, 'Frontline Midwife: Finding Hope in Love, Death and Birth' is available from Bloomsbury and other good bookshops. It has just been released in paperback.
8. National Centre of PTSD definition of Moral Injury, a psychological harm that occurs when someone's values or beliefs are violated or betrayed, or when they witness or fail to prevent such an act.

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Next Episode:

I continue my conversation with the incredible 'Frontline Midwife' Anna Kent. Having left humanitarian work, Anna talks movingly about her own experience of motherhood, including the heartbreaking loss of her first baby Fatima and the birth of her second daughter Aisha.

If you enjoyed this episode, please share, rate and subscribe. It really does make the difference in helping others find it – which means helping more parents in need.

You are not alone and will not feel this way forever.

Links to Support: (please note we do not check or monitor them individually).

1.    Acacia Family Support Pre and postnatal depression support for Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic mums and dads.  0121 301 5990, help@acacia.org.uk. 

2.    Action on Postpartum Psychosis (APP) Moderated Forum, click here to find out more. Email: app@app-network.org / Tel: 020 3322 9900

3.    AIMS for better birthing. helpline@aims.org.uk. This email will go to a group of AIMS volunteers and someone will respond as soon as possible. / Telephone: +44 (0) 300 365 0663 (leave message)

4.    Andys Man Club A non-judgmental talking group for men. info@andysmanclub.co.uk

5.    Association of Postnatal Illness Helpline: 10am – 2pm – 0207 386 0868 / Email: info@apni.org (Live chat online facility)

6.    Best Beginnings. Free NHS-accredited Baby Buddy app offering 24/7 App support for new parents

7.    Birth Trauma Association Email: support@birthtraumaassociation.org.uk

8.    CALM. National helpline: 0800 58 58 58 (5pm-midnight)

9.    Cedar House Support Group for mums with postnatal depression. Email: lwise@talktalk.net (Liz Wise) / Mobile: 07773 283556.

10. Contact - for families with disabled children. Helpline: 0808 808 3555.

11. Dad Matters. Support dads to have successful relationships with their families, with mental health and accessing services through peer support and signposting. kierananders@homestarthost.org.uk / 0161 344 0669

12. DadsNet offers support and knowledge through a community of dads on practical parenting and fatherhood.

13. Dope Black Dads - A digital safe space for fathers who wish to discuss their experiences of being black, a parent and masculinity in the modern world. hello@dopeblack.org

14. Family Lives provides immediate help from volunteer parent support workers 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Helpline: 0808 800 2222.

15. Family Rights Group. Support for parents and other family members whose children are involved with or need social care services. Helpline: 0808 801 0366.

16. Fathers Mental Health UK is a UK-based community interest company dedicated to enhancing the mental health of fathers and their families, especially during the perinatal period. Run by paternal mental health pioneer Mark Williams, offering support to dads.

17. Fatherhood Solutions. Scott Mair is a consultant in paternal mental health and parent education, Peer support trainer. Dad, Husband, Army veteran. 

18. FiveXMore. A grassroots organisation committed to changing Black women and birthing people’s maternal health outcomes in the UK. Email: fivexmore@gmail.com

19. Gingerbread offer help and advice on the issues that matter to single parents. Helpline 0808 802 0925.

20. The Hub of Hope - A directory of mental health support around the UK.

21. Lactation Consultants of Great Britain – for support with breastfeeding.

22. LGBT Mummies support LGBT+ women & people globally on the path to motherhood or parenthood. Email: contact@lgbtmummies.com

23. Make Birth Better (Birth Trauma Support) Email: hello@makebirthbetter.org

24. The Maternal Mental Health Alliance is a UK charity and network of 130 organisations, dedicated to ensuring women and families affected by perinatal mental health problems have access to high-quality, compassionate care.

25. Maternal OCD Peer support available, email info@maternalocd.org to arrange.

26. Mayah's Legacy support and empower anyone who has experienced pregnancy loss to advocate for themselves. Email: info@bigoutreach.org / 0300 102 1596.

27. The Motherhood Group are dedicated to sharing and supporting the black maternal experience through peer support, projects and advocacy. info@themotherhoodgroup.com

28. Motivational Mums Club offer trauma, mindfulness and meditation sessions for mothers and mums-to-be with an NHS Mental Health Specialist, who’s also a mother. motivationalmumsclub@gmail.com

29. Music Football Fatherhood offer open conversations around fatherhood, including blogs, peer support and podcasts. hello@musicfootballfatherhood.com

30. Muslim Women’s Network Helpline: 0800 999 5786, open Mon-Fri 10am–4pm with support offered in English, Urdu, Punjabi, Mirpuri, Putwari, Hindko and Bengali. Email: info@mwnhelpline.co.uk Text: 07415 206 936.

31. National Autistic Society for support and advice for parents and carers of autistic children, including support to develop a greater understanding of their child’s needs and accessing services that meet the family's needs.

32. Netmums offer peer support via their Maternal Mental Health Drop-InClinic.

33. NHS Services for Mental Health Issues Contact your local GP surgery. Call the NHS on 111 and press 2 for Mental Health Team or contact a local NHS urgent mental health helplineIf you are in crisis, visit Accident & Emergency at your nearest hospital.

34. PANDAS Helpline open from 9am-8pm every day – 0843 2898 401 info@pandasfoundation.org.uk

35. Perinatal Wellbeing Ontario offer pre-natal, pregnancy and postpartum support and connection in Canada. info@perinatalwellbeing.ca

36. Petals Baby Loss Charity offers free-of-charge specialist counselling to anyone who has experienced pregnancy or baby loss. Tel: 0300 688 0068 counselling@petalscharity.org

37. The Samaritans Tel: 116 123 (this is a free telephone number and will not appear on the phone bill) Email: jo@samaritans.org

38. Sands Charity offer emotional and practical support for anyone affected by the death of a baby. 0808 164 3332 /Email: helpline@sands.org.uk

39. SHOUT text support service for anyone struggling to cope. Text SHOUT to 85258 to start a confidential conversation with a trained volunteer.

40. Twins Trust. Twinline is a listening service for parents of twins, triplets and more. 0800 138 0509 / email asktwinline@twinstrust.org.

41. Tommy’s has a team of in-house midwives who offer free support and information for women and their families at any stage of pregnancy and after the birth. midwife@tommys.org.

42. The Unlikely Mummy offers community support for mums and families, including local walking groups, counselling, lactation support and a forest school. Email kavita@theunlikelymummy.co.uk. 

Blue MumDays Theme Music by Joseph McDade.

I'm flown to an area called Tam in South Sudan where I was the only

2

medical facility within a nine day walk,

with no roads and landmines and swamps.

3

I set up a health center there and we

saw about a thousand patients a month.

4

I say hospital, but it was, you know,

four mud huts with reed roofs that

5

you had to bend in half to get in.

6

One of the questions I often

get was that, "oh, why have a

7

baby anyway if you're in a war?"

8

It's because we're human and we

care and we yearn and we need,

9

and we're allowed to be women.

10

Right?

11

Everybody deserves access to healthcare

regardless of where in the world

12

they happen to have been born.

13

But the last thing I would want by writing

these experiences for people to minimalise

14

anybody else's birthing experience.

15

Whatever your experience is, that is

your experience, and that deserves

16

ceremony and it deserves respect

and it deserves a space to be shared

17

that's safe, you know, and improved on.

18

People in South Sudan deserve

gold standard maternity care.

19

Absolutely.

20

People in the UK deserve

gold standard maternity care.

21

So rather than feeling like we should

minimalise this experience for us,

22

because, you know, we have our maternity

scandals here, we are letting people down.

23

Let's rise up, let's expect

brilliance from all of it because

24

we can absolutely achieve it.

25

It just takes us to be co-ordinated.

26

We need a statutory minimum staffing.

27

And we need a really

comprehensive funding.

28

Having a baby is meant to be the

most joyful time of your life.

29

But for many mums, and dads,

it can be the hardest, and at

30

times the darkest of places.

31

Welcome to Season 3 of Blue

MumDays, the podcast for anyone

32

struggling with parenting.

33

You need to know that you are not alone.

34

And these awful feelings

will not be with you forever.

35

Just one word - all the stories

shared here are from the heart.

36

These are real conversations

and may be triggering, so

37

please listen with discretion.

38

Your wellbeing is so important, so if you

need to take a breather or stop listening,

39

please know that you can at any point.

40

Today's episode covers birthing

in extreme situations, birth trauma,

41

baby loss and post traumatic stress.

42

This episode was recorded

43

VIKKI: Today's guest is Anna Kent.

44

Anna is a humanitarian aid worker, N.H.S.

45

(National Health Service)

Nurse and Midwife.

46

After Receiving a nursing master's degree

from the University of Nottingham, she

47

completed a diploma in tropical nursing in

London and joined Medecins Sans Frontieres

48

- Doctors Without Borders - in 2007.

49

She gained her first degree in midwifery

50

across the world, including in South

Sudan, Haiti, Bangladesh, and the UK.

51

Delivering babies in war zones, Anna has

cared for the most vulnerable women in

52

the most vulnerable places in the world.

53

At 26 years old, not yet a fully

trained midwife, she delivered

54

a baby in a tropical storm by

the light of her head torch.

55

The following year, she would be

responsible for the female health of

56

30,000 Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh.

57

But returning to the UK to work for

the NHS, she soon learned that even

58

at home, the right to a safe birth

was impossible to take for granted.

59

In her recent memoir, 'Frontline

Midwife', Anna shares her extraordinary

60

experiences as a nurse, midwife and

mother, illuminating the lives of

61

women who are irreparably affected

by compromised access to healthcare.

62

I speak to Anna today, both

as expert midwife, but also as

63

a mum with lived experience.

64

Tragically, at just six months

pregnant, Anna had to give birth

65

to her first daughter, Fatima.

66

Fatima very sadly, died soon after

due to the rarest of brain conditions.

67

Happily, Anna's second daughter, Aisha

68

Welcome to Blue MumDays

Anna, how are you today?

69

ANNA KENT: Yes.

70

Thanks so much for having me.

71

VIKKI: I'm so honoured.

72

So just for listeners, I came across

Anna's story through a magazine article.

73

I saw your story in it and I knew I had

to read your book and I desperately wanted

74

to have you on the podcast, because I

thought your story was just incredible.

75

And, having now read

the book, it's yeah...

76

I was having to apologise to Anna when

we first came on this call because

77

I've been blubbing this morning.

78

Regular listeners will know that I tend

to get quite teary and it's just the

79

most incredible life affirming, but

also heartbreaking read, you know, and

80

there's so much I want to cover with you.

81

Before we sort of talk about your own

experience of motherhood, I would love to

82

learn more about why you wanted to sort of

go on that crazy adventure to South Sudan,

83

as an aid worker in the first place?

84

ANNA KENT: Yeah.

85

So when I was a child, as a lot of us

still do, when you see war on the tv,

86

you see the next tsunami, you have this

feeling like, "this is so unjust and

87

I wish I could do something to help".

88

And I think that's something

that all of us experience.

89

And Live Aid was on TV when I was

a young child in the eighties.

90

And, you know, it can seem a little bit

cliche, but you know in my childhood way,

91

I just thought "starvation is wrong".

92

You know, these, these kids that I

could see on the TV were essentially

93

my age and I was surrounded by,

you know, everything I needed.

94

And yet people in the world can die

because they don't have enough food.

95

And, you know, it still

doesn't make sense.

96

You know, we should

still feel that outrage.

97

And it was really simplistic as a

child, you know, "I'm going to help".

98

And I thought it was as simple as that.

99

So I then trained as a nurse and I

was really pleased to get my Master's.

100

Went to Nottingham, moved from a,

like a sleepy Shropshire village.

101

Went to Nottingham.

102

Loved Nottingham, like I loved

the nightlife, I loved the

103

music, I loved like the art side.

104

And then I worked in A and E (Accident

and Emergency) in Nottingham, the

105

QMC for three years full-time.

106

And we'd see everything - we'd see

gunshot wounds and we'd see knife wounds.

107

And I think at that point when I joined,

we had something like a knife wound every

108

five days and a gunshot wound every eight.

109

It was a lot, let's say.

110

Um, and I just, I still had that sense,

was "I feel like there's more I can do

111

for the wider world", because all these

international events kept happening and

112

I've never felt, because something may

happen in South Sudan, it doesn't feel

113

so different to me than if it was to

happen in a city where I'm not living.

114

So something big was to

say, happen in Liverpool.

115

That feels as close to me as if

it was to happen in South Africa.

116

Again, it sounds a bit cliche, but I feel

like a citizen of the world and not so

117

much like a citizen of a particular place.

118

And I felt really connected

to Medecins Sans Frontieres.

119

They work in over seven

countries worldwide and provide

120

medical assistance to anybody.

121

So it's regardless of your side and

the war, and it's regardless of your

122

sex and your gender, it's regardless

of any like political affiliations.

123

And I really connect to that, because

that felt it represented my own core

124

beliefs that everybody deserves access

to healthcare regardless of where in

125

the world they happen to have been born.

126

Because you know, we

don't choose this do we?

127

I did a short work experience in Zambia,

which really opened my eyes in the

128

rural hospital where I volunteered.

129

They'd had an x-ray machine

donated by a UK charity.

130

But the National Grid in Zambia

at that time couldn't draw enough

131

energy to actually power it!

132

And it was my first introduction that you

can have very good intentions, but unless

133

the aid is very thoughtfully given, you

know, this x-ray machine now also takes

134

up clinical space and collects dust.

135

So it was my first eye-open that

it's not as simple as "doing your

136

bit" (definitely inverted commas!)

137

And I felt MSF because it was such

a well regarded organisation, I felt

138

that the sort of work that I'd be doing

represented the sort of work I believed

139

in, like on a core sort of moral level.

140

So I studied tropical medicine in London.

141

So that helped bridge the gap between...

142

because you know, you can be the

most trained A and E nurse in the

143

whole world, but if somebody's

got malaria or schistosomiasis or

144

leishmaniasis and you don't know what

that is or what to do with it, you are

145

basically rendered completely useless.

146

So I studied tropical medicine

and had some interviews with MSF

147

and it's quite hard to join them.

148

And we went on this big expo in

Germany where we were taken at half

149

two in the morning in a frozen forest.

150

So I, you know, got my first

mission to South Sudan and I

151

was, I knew it would be tough.

152

You know, South Sudan had had

50 years of civil war, so of

153

course it was gonna be difficult.

154

I didn't ever imagine it was gonna be

some like gungho gap year adventure.

155

I wasn't that naive, but, you know,

stepped off feeling a bit cool

156

with my MSF logo and onto this

flight into South Sudan from Kenya.

157

But like, everything's kind of

falling in on itself and the cargo

158

plane is a bit battered and still

like, "oh I still feel alright".

159

And then we landed.

160

On one side was a burnt out cargo plane

that had been shot down .On the other

161

side was a landmine field, because

there were millions of landmines across

162

South Sudan at that time in 2007.

163

And heat comes in, it's 50 degrees.

164

Have you ever been in 50 degrees?

165

Like I I know it sounds

stupid, but it's hot!

166

And you know, I just thought,

"I don't know if I can breathe.

167

I don't know if I can breathe and

function, how am I gonna work here?"

168

Flies come in.

169

It was all very much "me, me, me,

I'm really struggling with this".

170

And then the first patient was

loaded on and basically she was

171

on a stretcher made of sticks.

172

And the smell...

173

like, it sounds so uncaring, but it

was the worst, literally the worst.

174

It was like sewers.

175

It was dreadful for her.

176

Her experience had been the war

had taken away the hospitals.

177

The war had taken away the midwives,

the war had taken away the nurses,

178

the war had taken away all of her

access to any form of healthcare.

179

And she was pregnant.

180

And we can maybe talk about this

more later, but women don't always

181

have a choice about being pregnant.

182

They don't always have the right to

say no to sex and even wars and women

183

are allowed to want a baby as well.

184

You know, it's one of the questions

I often get, probably not from

185

your listenership, I would guess,

was that, "oh, why have a baby

186

anyway if you're in a war?"

187

It's because we're human and we

care and we yearn and we need,

188

and we're allowed to be women.

189

Right?

190

So she'd had a pregnancy and no access

to healthcare and what can happen if

191

you've experienced starvation as a child,

is that your pelvis, so your girdle

192

doesn't grow to its potential because of

malnutrition, starvation, lack of access

193

to the basics that we take for granted.

194

But if you then have better nutrition

in pregnancy, your body will grow

195

a baby to its genetic potentials.

196

You have a pelvis that is is too small and

a baby's head that is too big to fit up.

197

So cephalopelvic disproportion is the

technical term, but basically the baby

198

will never be born vaginally in that case.

199

And she had no access to anything.

200

Her baby had died probably two

years before I'd met her and

201

...

VIKKI: Oh my gosh!

202

ANNA KENT: She had then,

so she'd had baby loss.

203

So that's her first level of harm.

204

And then the body was still inside.

205

Sorry, we're launching straight

into the graphics, but you know,

206

this is a woman's experience.

207

It's important to talk about her.

208

And then that baby's body, as it eroded,

had caused a hole between her vagina

209

into her bladder and into her bowel.

210

So everything we pass into the

toilet, she passed vaginally.

211

And that's what made the stench, with

want of a better way of describing it.

212

So her family had then disowned

her, her next level of harm.

213

And she was septic and she was dying

to this, you know, this pregnancy

214

that I don't, I don't know what the

start of the journey was for her.

215

Maybe she was happy about the

pregnancy, maybe she wasn't, you know.

216

But it was gonna kill

her and she had nobody.

217

Nobody in the whole world.

218

And so this woman is loaded

onto this stretcher next to me.

219

This lady's actually remained unnamed.

220

So to my shame, the woman on the plane,

I absolutely committed in my heart.

221

I want to, to know what her name is.

222

I want to know what happened to her.

223

But I felt, you know, I

didn't know what to do.

224

I'd never seen obstetric fistula.

225

I'd never seen

cephalopelvic disproportion.

226

I just thought, I don't know how to help

you, but I've got so much I need to learn.

227

And then suddenly you're not

recognising that it's 50 degrees heat.

228

You're not really seeing the

fact that you're covered in flies

229

either, because the core reason of

being there was to help somebody.

230

And I failed her.

231

I didn't know what to do.

232

Thankfully, on rushed the MSF team,

they know what they were doing.

233

And we flew to a surgical site, you

know, we landed and she was unloaded

234

to go to the surgical hospital.

235

It's like the only hospital, I think in

the geographical area the size of Belgium.

236

And thank god this, you know,

brilliant team could step in and

237

fill the gaps of what I couldn't do.

238

And I committed to myself that

I'd find out what happened to her.

239

But then the next minute I'm,

then I'm flown to an area called

240

Tam, where I was the only medical

facility within a nine day walk with

241

no roads and landmines and swamps.

242

I set up a health center there and we

saw about a thousand patients a month.

243

And then the next, the next,

next thing, the next thing.

244

And to my shame, I never...

245

I didn't find out what happened to

her, I didn't find out her name,

246

and I did have a chance within the

book to apologise to her for that.

247

I also, it was a commitment to me that I

will never, ever, ever treat another woman

248

where she doesn't at least have a name.

249

And so that was one of the points

of writing my book was I held all

250

these stories and all these, like, I

got to meet, meet people in such an

251

intimate and dangerous and scary for

them especially, time in their life.

252

And, you know, it was a privilege to

share these stories and I didn't know

253

what to do with all these stories.

254

So I committed to writing the

book as a form of testimonial

255

to their lived experiences.

256

Absolutely putting my hands up as a

privileged white woman from England,

257

it should not be me writing this book.

258

I absolutely acknowledge that.

259

And I sat with it for

probably at least two years.

260

Really like trying to find my way through

this sense of privilege and the sense

261

of, I guess, the vicarious existence.

262

But I felt that if I didn't say these

stories at this point, then nobody did.

263

Because some of the women that I

worked with died and so do these

264

stories never get told at all?

265

So I felt, I will tell them with the

absolute acknowledgement that in a

266

perfect world it shouldn't be me.

267

That was a long, that was a

long answer to your question!

268

VIKKI: My my goodness.

269

I mean, wow, we've only just got started!

270

If I could just for a second

go back to what you said about

271

watching the television programs

and the news when you were a child.

272

I have to commend you because so

many of us, yes, were horrified, but

273

apart from like giving, you know,

donating to charity, how many people

274

actually do something about it?

275

And I think it's incredible what

you've done, not from a sort of 'white

276

saviour' point of view, but from a

humanitarian point of view and seeing

277

ANNA KENT: I guess it's good

to acknowledge that some, like

278

especially with charities, they

do need, you know, fiver in the

279

charity pot and that is okay as well.

280

You do not have to be knee deep

in swamp, in a one man tent in

281

South Sudan with scorpions and

snakes, to be a humanitarian.

282

Like we have to care and look, we're here

chatting in the UK about women's rights

283

and access to healthcare in South Sudan.

284

So that is humanitarian.

285

I think for absolutely, you know, I

have retired from humanitarian work.

286

For now, we'll see!

287

And again, we can cover this a bit

more later, but it's, we all have

288

a role and I think it's, we can

get really exhausted, can't we?

289

And you know, the next

issue and the next problem.

290

And sometimes you can get

exhausted from caring as well.

291

You can get compassion fatigue.

292

You know, I did learn the hard way.

293

Unless you look after yourself

and your own mental health, you

294

are useless then to everybody.

295

So there, there is always a balance.

296

I think if anybody feels like they have

anything extra that they can spare, that

297

they can give, then regardless of what

level that is, that is humanitarianism

298

and that's what we should celebrate.

299

Everybody's got their own

reasons for being in the fields.

300

Some people have something to prove,

like one of the guys I worked with,

301

his dad was a Texas oil tycoon and

he was basically giving his middle,

302

giving his middle finger up to his dad.

303

You know, there is no such

thing as a martyr, everybody

304

has their own stuff going on.

305

And so it's rather than feel smaller,

because maybe other people do more, let's

306

all feel bigger by doing what we can.

307

I think that's the important thing.

308

VIKKI: Beautifully put.

309

I'd love just for a very brief

moment to chat about James because

310

was I mean, it's incredible reading

the book because he seems like

311

such a larger than life character.

312

He feels like a character from a

novel rather than a real life person!

313

ANNA KENT: But bear in mind I

hated James when I first met him!

314

right when I Me and

James chat all the time.

315

He's probably even better

than I could describe.

316

Although my mum recently said,

"I'd love to meet James".

317

I was like, thing is, I don't know.

318

He's so crass and that doesn't

always communicate and he does

319

it completely satirically.

320

He's an asshole.

321

But he tries to be like, he would love it.

322

The more dreadful things I say about him,

the more he would absolutely love it.

323

So it is completely said

with, with his consent, I'm

324

sure.

325

So yeah, so I landed in Tam and out of the

dust, literally in his cowboy hat (because

326

he's such an ... knob!) strides James,

so James at that time was in his sixties.

327

I think I was 26 and I think he was 62.

328

Anyway, out of the dust comes James.

329

So his mum was a heroin addict

when he was born in the States.

330

And his parents were alcoholics.

331

His dad was also incestuous

with his disabled sister.

332

So a really difficult beginning

in life, like in middle America.

333

His parents couldn't cope with him

so he was sent to live with his

334

alcoholic grandma near the woods.

335

And his grandma had a Sicilian

second husband who ran

336

a liquor store as he put it.

337

And basically he had to collect

wood in the forest and he

338

hated his grandpa for it.

339

He became an alcoholic himself.

340

He was a Hell's Angel.

341

He had lots of children with lots

of different women and he traveled

342

the world and he didn't give a shit.

343

He was always quite a pacifist

and he wanted to escape

344

being conscribed to Vietnam.

345

So he went to go and live in the

Middle East and eat cabbage for a

346

month because he didn't have any

money, instead of being subscribed.

347

Like a really, like wacky life existence.

348

My belief is he always had a core love

for humans, but it was underneath a

349

drug-fueled, alcohol- fueled anger at his

parents, 'motorbike-gang' kind of persona.

350

So when I met him, James had got a

shaved head and a handlebar moustache...

351

VIKKI: Of course he did, yeah!

352

(laughs)

353

ANNA KENT: You know when tattoos

are sort of done like with literally

354

like a needle and ink and then they

fade into pale blue and stuff.

355

And I was like, "really?!"

356

is this my only international

partner for like the next year?!"

357

That was my honest thought.

358

VIKKI: I mean, God, what a culture shock!

359

ANNA KENT: Yeah, absolutely.

360

Yeah.

361

Yeah.

362

And he'd been in prison for

marijuana possession and he loved

363

telling me all these stories.

364

And at first, like, I didn't appreciate

the importance of storytelling.

365

I didn't appreciate it.

366

I was very British and "I'm here

to be serious and do a serious

367

thing and we're in a war zone".

368

And he was like, "wow,

gee, isn't this great?

369

Oh yeah, let's do this".

370

And I just thought, " you're an idiot!"

371

Like, what was MSF thinking

putting me with you?

372

And then slowly, slowly, like over the

campfires and basically, so we had,

373

I worked with 10 Sudanese national

staff who were absolutely phenomenal.

374

Most of them had never had

the privilege of schooling.

375

And so we were working on like

basic calculations for drugs and...

376

One of the guys I was working with who was

so diligent, like he'd basically had three

377

of his fingers blasted off by helicopter

gunship and he'd never learned to write,

378

but he was our registrar, our bookkeeper.

379

And so we were working with this amazing,

dedicated, wonderful team that had

380

they had the privilege of education

would've been far excelling me in

381

anything that I've achieved in life.

382

Absolutely.

383

And James was my, my only

international colleague.

384

So we were camping together in our

tents in this little compound that was

385

about 10 steps from the actual hospital.

386

And I say hospital, but it was, you

know, four mud huts with reed roofs

387

that you had to bend in half to get in.

388

You could just about stand up

straight in the middle of it.

389

VIKKI: So the patients had

to wait by the Waiting Tree?

390

ANNA KENT: Trees are big, big things.

391

They've got a lot of value in South Sudan.

392

So there's the Nile that runs through

South Sudan and there's swamps.

393

We were west up a Nile region,

but basically in every single

394

direction it's just completely flat.

395

And it's just this like

dark reddy, brownie earth.

396

It was dry season when I

landed and became rain season.

397

There's nothing, there's

no scrub, there's no trees.

398

Like, for every single part of the

horizon, just these amazing tukuls

399

that people could build from the

building materials they had access to.

400

So yeah, we had four tukuls for

the hospital and the community had

401

basically said we could build them

next to two big trees in the village.

402

That's why the village

had been built there.

403

One of them was where you had town

meetings and people would meet with

404

their spears and have discussions

and like the informal court and

405

stuff that was under the other tree.

406

And sometimes there was a

school, but not all the time.

407

And then our one, the second tree of

the village, that was our Waiting Tree.

408

So yeah, when we put tarp on the floor,

we could fit - in the shade of it up,

409

until about 11:30 in the morning - we

could fit about a hundred people.

410

And they sat in really

calm, respectful queues.

411

If somebody was more poorly, they

would push them to the front.

412

You know, it's not quite the same

as what I'd experienced in A and E!.

413

It was like...

414

VIKKI: yeah.

415

ANNA KENT: ...in my face.

416

And, you know, for, let's have compassion.

417

So when people are stressed and

when they're scared, they're

418

not always particularly polite.

419

And I can empathise with that.

420

When we're scared we're not always our

best selves or our most thoughtful selves.

421

But the lived experience for people

in South Sudan was, I guess lower

422

expectations, which isn't right,

but it's, um, yeah, people would

423

push the most sick to the front.

424

VIKKI: One of the most incredible things

from your book is how these women that

425

you would see - because you weren't

a midwife at this point, were you?

426

ANNA KENT: I point was an A and E nurse.

427

I'd seen one birth!

428

I'd volunteered for a little bit

in Nottingham Maternity Unit before

429

going and I'd had book-based training.

430

But yeah, I wasn't a midwife.

431

And James in his full insight was

like, "well, I don't do OBGYN!"

432

(Obs Gynae is how they say it).

433

And we'd had this lady come

to us in the middle of the

434

night with a retained placenta.

435

VIKKI: And these women were sort

of having to walk for miles and

436

days through swamps and landmines.

437

ANNA KENT: We were the only healthcare

facility for a nine day walk.

438

So then people weighed up -in

their village with no access to

439

a midwife or doctor or nurse- "is

it worth the risk of the walk?"

440

But also for women with low

social status, is, "is anybody

441

going to help me get there?"

442

So people who had a vaginal

birth that came without

443

complications didn't come to us.

444

The people that came to us,

it was an obstructed labour.

445

And then we were already days and days

and days down down the line you know.

446

VIKKI: The physical and mental

strength..., as, as somebody who's

447

had contractions once in their

life, I couldn't move, you know?

448

Let alone do a 9 day

walk through landmines.

449

ANNA KENT: But if you thought you were

gonna die, that's what it comes too, yeah.

450

There was a local saying that 'pregnant

women have one foot in the grave'.

451

Um, That's the price you pay for being in

a war zone with no access to healthcare.

452

VIKKI: But I think it's so, so,

SO important to name these women

453

and tell their stories because

otherwise they become statistics.

454

And statistics means it's

like one step removed.

455

And I mean, with the horrors that's

going on in Ukraine, the thing that

456

really angered and upset me the most

was how, I remember like there was an

457

American news journalist who was talking

about, "these are people like us."

458

Because they were white people and

because they were like middle class

459

people that it was somehow worse than

if it was village or tribes people

460

in South Sudan or Africa, wherever.

461

ANNA KENT: Is a war worse in Europe

than it is in sub-Saharan Africa?

462

Absolutely.

463

That's one of the things that

I loved about MSF it, you know,

464

MSF is working in Ukraine.

465

They've got this amazing hospital train

that goes, it's running on the train

466

tracks and patients are loaded and

treated on the train, which is phenomenal.

467

You know, it's a phenomenal logistics.

468

But we also, also working in

Sierra Leone and we are in Congo

469

when we are in Papua New Guinea.

470

You know, I can reel off all, all

the words, but it's, that's it.

471

My core belief is, and you know,

when we dig down, I think most people

472

actually, when you question it, also

believe that everyone, regardless of

473

where they are, does deserve access.

474

And one of the things I found after

writing about the maternal experience in

475

South Sudan was a couple of people have

come to me from their birth experiences

476

in the UK and said, "oh, I feel bad

because I feel traumatised from my birth.

477

But it's not as bad as Nyabol in South

Sudan, as Nyawan in South Sudan, as Grace

478

in South Sudan, as Mia in Bangladesh."

479

You know, it's...

480

But the last thing I would want by writing

these experiences for people to minimalise

481

anybody else's birthing experience.

482

And actually we should all be aiming

for gold standard maternity care.

483

And there's actually no reason,

there's no practical reason

484

why we can't deliver it here.

485

You know, that you don't get more

dedicated people than student midwives.

486

Like seriously, it's really

competitive to get in.

487

They accrue a lot of depth for training.

488

You know, there is no more

keen team of workforce, I

489

believe, than student midwives.

490

And yet at the recent Royal

College Of Midwives data is that

491

out of every thirty we train, we

retain one into the workforce.

492

VIKKI: Wow!

493

Really?

494

ANNA KENT: So it's - that's

one part of it.

495

So what I would always fight for is,

yes, absolutely, people in South Sudan

496

deserve gold standard maternity care.

497

Absolutely people in the UK deserve

gold standard maternity care.

498

So rather than feeling like we should

minimalise this experience for us,

499

because, you know, we have our maternity

scandals here, we are letting people down.

500

Let's rise up, let's expect

brilliance from all of it because

501

we can absolutely achieve it.

502

It just takes us to be co-ordinated.

503

I believe, we need a

statutory minimum staffing.

504

Because it all starts, all the shit

show starts from a poorly staffed

505

shift or unit, chronic underfunding.

506

And yeah, we need a really

comprehensive funding.

507

You know, that's, that's my little byline.

508

It's not quite what we're here

to talk about, but we are talking

509

about maternity experiences.

510

So if anybody's listening, what

I'd really like to avoid is to

511

minimalise anybody's experience.

512

whatever your experience is, that is

your experience, and that deserves

513

ceremony and it deserves respect

and it deserves a space to be shared

514

that's safe, you know, and improved on.

515

So, yeah, I know that you absolutely

work for it as well, but this,

516

this is definitely a safe space for

whatever somebody's experience is.

517

VIKKI: I think that's such an

important point you make Anna.

518

And just to say to anybody that

might be listening to this podcast

519

for the first time, if you have

experienced birth trauma, then

520

you have experienced birth trauma.

521

If you felt traumatised by

your birth, it doesn't have to

522

have been a medical emergency.

523

Your life or your baby's life don't

necessarily have to have been in danger

524

for it to have been traumatic for you.

525

And I would advise you to

listen to the episode with Dr.

526

Rebecca Moore of Make Birth Better, and

she talks about birth trauma in such a,

527

a sensitive and truly galvanising way.

528

And I've found that for

myself, incredibly healing.

529

Because you suffer a lot of guilt

for, you know, "how can I not be

530

coping when everybody else copes?"

531

ANNA KENT: When mum guilt

sucks anyway, right?!

532

VIKKI: Oh my God yeah!

533

so obviously, I could talk to you for

hours about just your experiences in Tam.

534

And I think as well there are some

really heartbreaking experiences

535

that you had with, mothers and

babies and, very traumatic births.

536

You know, if anybody would

like to read more, the book is

537

available through Bloomsbury?

538

ANNA KENT: Bloomsbury, yeah.

539

Available at all good bookshops, yeah.

540

VIKKI: It's called 'Frontline

Midwife, My Story Of Survival

541

And Keeping Others Safe'.

542

And it is, my God, it's a,

cracking read for anybody that's

543

just interested in life in other

countries, you know, in refugee camps.

544

And I found it so profound early

on when you talked about...

545

I mean, obviously the first few

months of adjusting to life in South

546

Sudan, it was really, really tough.

547

And you could sense how freaked out

you were by the whole situation.

548

But then interestingly, when you had your

sort of breaks and came back to the UK,

549

you actually started to feel out of water

there because South Sudan became your

550

new reality and your new sense of home

551

ANNA KENT: So we worked in Tam in

another town called Koch, and then

552

we also sometimes had to cover the

staffing in Lair, which had the surgical

553

hospital., I remember on one of the

days in Lair, I was kneeling down on

554

the floor with a baby that was sick

and we'd run out space in the hostel.

555

So we had a ward under the

trees, which was basically people

556

construct their own mosquito nets

and, and we'd nursed them there.

557

And I can remember a black

mamba slithered past my foot.

558

VIKKI: Oh my gosh.

559

ANNA KENT: Black mambas aren't

that big and they're a bit silvery

560

looking, but I knew it was a black

mamba and you definitely don't

561

wanna get bitten by a black mamba.

562

But I was so focused on this child,

and I knew black mambas were around,

563

you know, we'd seen red cobras and

we'd seen green snakes and tarantulas

564

and uh, you know, we'd see, I

don't know, 10, 20 scorpions a day.

565

It wasn't ever okay.

566

But it was, and it was, I think it

was months later - I'd forgotten this

567

moment - I woke up in night, like "arrgh!"

568

A black mamba slithered like

two inches from my foot!

569

And I didn't even

570

realise it, like that's how much my

world had changed to because you do, you

571

have to live, like in my little tent,

we'd clean out our tents on the Sunday.

572

You know, James would be telling

me some story about like an

573

ex-girlfriend or something.

574

He was such a brilliant

storyteller and it's so important.

575

I think storytelling is to be human.

576

VIKKI: We need to get him

to do his own podcast!.

577

ANNA KENT: Oh my God, he'd be brilliant

and wonderful and dreadful all in one.

578

He has no filter whatsoever!

579

And we'd clean out our tents and you

know, we were in a one man tent, so I

580

had my roll mat, like my yoga mat, which

was just a roll mat, that was my bedding.

581

Then on one side I had my diary and

I had my, a couple of photos and

582

that was my like social stuff and

the book I was reading and my head

583

torch was always around my neck.

584

You had to be ready for like

the nighttime emergencies.

585

On the other side was my medical kit and

it was all in exactly the same place.

586

You know, that was life and you know,

that tent was my home and I, you know,

587

People at home going, "oh God, you're

living in a tent, how dreadful."

588

But people that I was with, because the

great thing about a tent is when you

589

zip the outside, the scorpions can't

get in and the mosquitoes can't get in.

590

So actually it all

works very functionally.

591

And the people who like in

the local community is like,

592

"wow, look at this technology.

593

This is really like space age".

594

Not the reference of space, but you

get the point I'm trying to make.

595

So it was, you know, the tent is

the continuous thing is just a

596

tent, but from one side it's this

dreadful basic way of living.

597

From the other perspective, it's

this really high tech stuff.

598

So it, it's all about your perspective,

but that was, you know, that was home.

599

And then to come back and, you know, very

rightly so, all my friends that I was

600

really close to, I didn't really have the

language to explain how I was feeling.

601

And people would say, "oh,

how was South Sudan?"

602

And you'd be like, "well, you

know, do you wanna hear one thing?

603

Do you wanna hear 20 things.

604

I could talk for the next six

months and not be finished.

605

Like how much do you want to know?"

606

And, you People often, I don't

know, would like a really tidy

607

story about good winning over evil.

608

And we all save the day.

609

And that's not humanitarianism.

610

Like humanitarian work

in war zones is dreadful.

611

It's dreadful every day.

612

Every day is horrid.

613

You do some good.

614

Absolutely you do, but you also

bear witness to the million

615

things that you can't do.

616

So for the women that we

did save, who would've died

617

without MSF's presence there.

618

You know, you then wave them off

across the runway and they walk

619

back across the landmine field.

620

And you know, I don't know if they'll

get malaria in the next day or you know,

621

the war will come rolling in closer.

622

When I was there, it'd been 50

years of civil war and there

623

was actually a break in the war.

624

But it's, yeah, it was a conflict

zone to use the official term.

625

You know, so I found it

hard to know the language.

626

I also had a sense that these

stories could poison other people.

627

It's quite a common theme in trauma.

628

I've learned now that you sometimes

don't want to talk about the bad stuff

629

because you feel, I can remember I felt

like, I had this sort of black mist

630

and rather than feeling sharing helps,

I felt I need to keep all this black

631

mist inside because I could poison other

people and then they're never gonna be

632

quite as happy again, because I've put,

yeah, essentially tainted them somehow.

633

But then also with my friends, rightly so.

634

They were getting job promotions and

they're buying houses, you know, they

635

were late twenties by this point.

636

Some were getting married and having

babies and, which is brilliant.

637

Absolutely.

638

Absolutely they should and can and do

whatever they want to do with their

639

lives, but I was like half of myself.

640

I was a bit broken and I was back

living with my parents and I was

641

unemployed and I'd been a volunteer

for years, so I didn't have any money.

642

And the thing about going away for a

year, it's not great for your career

643

progress back here because you've become

somebody that's not quite reliable.

644

So you're not going to get your band

six if you're a band five nurse, because

645

they think you might go away again.

646

I hadn't expected it and I

hadn't left anything in reserve.

647

I'd given everything to my mission.

648

I was a year in South Sudan.

649

I gave her everything.

650

I didn't leave anything back.

651

And I came back, moved back in with my

boyfriend that I'd had before leaving.

652

We were just in different planets.

653

We were different worlds

away from each other.

654

Didn't know how to talk to him.

655

I thought "this is a really good idea.

656

I'm gonna go and get absolutely

annihilated with alcohol because

657

then surely these wonderful words

that I need to say are somehow

658

going to find their way out."

659

I mean, it doesn't work like that.

660

If anybody's planning a breakup that way,

it doesn't help you actually, if you need

661

to say something to somebody, you need to

sit them down, you just need to say it.

662

Don't go and do vodka chasers!

663

So anyway, so I ate a pizza on the

way home and I'd had this recurrent

664

diarrhea in South Sudan called Giardia,

which makes you lactose intolerant

665

so a late night pizza on top of

vodka, really, isn't a good idea.

666

VIKKI: Not a great idea.

667

ANNA KENT: A lot happened,

but essentially I wet the bed.

668

Woke up full of the shame of wetting

the bed and then I'd broken up

669

with him and then he'd left, and

then the next day he was gone.

670

And I just, I didn't, I panicked,

I didn't know what to do.

671

Like I had nothing left to give.

672

I was exhausted.

673

I'm completely like spinning out.

674

And so I got a hire car and I

packed everything up from my

675

flat and I left him a note.

676

And I got in the car.

677

I'm driving away like crying and being

like the worst person again with the

678

guilt, which is often related with trauma.

679

Like really internalising this,

"I should be better at this,

680

I should be bigger than this.

681

I should be able to cope with war and

breakups and be completely like, I

682

don't know, a better human about it".

683

I didn't heal at that

stage, if I'm honest.

684

I didn't understand what

the process would be.

685

But I got stronger and I got better and

I did my midwife training and I worked

686

really hard and I got a first and I

threw myself into the next big thing.

687

And then, yeah, then I went to Haiti

after the earthquake and cholera outbreak

688

and was kind of all disjointed again.

689

So I went back out for another

year with MSF to Bangladesh,

690

to a Rohingya refugee camp.

691

And at that point, there was 30,000

people in this haphazard refugee camp.

692

And we were the only medical

provision , no access to safe birth.

693

So I'd say probably one of the

proudest parts of my career, from

694

scratch we did build a birth unit

and stuff and that still runs today.

695

So the Rohingya women in the refugee

camp do have 24 hour access to

696

a trained midwife and safe birth.

697

So that good thing happened.

698

Um, yeah, I came back and

just, yeah, just broke.

699

VIKKI: God that responsibility

for, what was it, 30,000?

700

ANNA KENT: The population in

total was 30,000, so roughly

701

half of that would be female.

702

But a lot of the men were absent because

they tried to find work, which was illegal

703

for them because they were stateless.

704

So being stateless was, they'd

fled from Myanmar, from genocide

705

VIKKI: Yeah.

706

ANNA KENT: But Myanmar didn't recognise

them as their citizen, so they

707

didn't have a passport from Myanmar.

708

And then Bangladesh didn't recognise

them as citizens of Bangladesh,

709

so they ended up stateless.

710

So basically if you're stateless,

you don't belong to any country.

711

And that's why a lot of government,

you've got no rights, got no protection.

712

So again, with our maternity services,

I'd often be working with people who

713

had survived rape, you know, so we could

give the hepatitis vaccines, we could

714

give the emergency contraception and we

could give the, like prevented the P.E.P.

715

(post-event prophylaxis) to prevent H.I.V.

716

etc.

717

And I can sew up the grazes

and I can put a patch on that.

718

But unless you are curing the actual

core issue, which is the vulnerability

719

of the women in the camp, then we,

you know, we had to send, we had

720

to discharge them at some point.

721

I couldn't keep everybody.

722

And unless women have protection and legal

rights, then they're extremely vulnerable.

723

Absolutely.

724

And that was what I had no power over.

725

VIKKI: Yeah.

726

How do you come to terms with that?

727

Because that could destroy you.

728

ANNA KENT: So at the time I closed down.

729

I used to describe it that about

half my heart had turned to coal.

730

And I, I don't even know where

that analogy had come from.

731

That's how it felt for me.

732

So you reduce your field of vision

because you cannot function if you

733

are feeling every single pain and cut.

734

You just can't get up.

735

And then...

736

VIKKI: Yeah.

737

ANNA KENT: ...well, women did die.

738

You know, I could tear myself

apart for the rest of my life about

739

it, but if I didn't go into work

the next day, nobody did either.

740

So you feel less.

741

And I thought "I'm getting better at this.

742

I'm working more, I'm doing more,

I'm working harder, I know more now."

743

You know, I was a seasoned - oh

sounds so trite - but you know,

744

I was an experienced MSF worker.

745

I was a nurse and midwife, etc.

746

But what I had to learn the hard way

about trauma was I wasn't dealing with

747

it by any stretch of the imagination I

was dealing with it by partying harder.

748

I was having sex with people

that I probably shouldn't have.

749

I was distracting myself from

the physical pain of what I

750

was witnessing and burying

these .... This response to trauma.

751

You know, what was my trauma?

752

God, you know, this woman in

front of me has suffered more

753

trauma, a worse experience than I

can ever, ever, ever experience.

754

I'm the lucky one here.

755

So how on earth do I recognise

my suffering when that other

756

person is suffering a million,

billion, billion times worse?

757

But I came back from the Bangladesh

mission and and I was partying

758

harder and I'd ended up, like,

technically I was homeless, but

759

essentially I'm sofa surfing.

760

I'd fallen out of love with my midwifery

career because it was the NHS, for all

761

the problems that we know it, and ended

up basically having a hallucination.

762

So it technically, it's a flashback, but

my experience of it was a hallucination.

763

So I'd had a birth that

had gone pretty well.

764

I didn't have the birth,

the woman had had the...

765

sometimes I accidently say

I delivered and I didn't.

766

The woman always, woman and birthing

person is always the one to deliver.

767

So I'll catch myself with my, like,

you know, this paternalistic language

768

creeps in even if we don't want it to!

769

I'm trying to be aware of it.

770

So I had helped a brilliant woman

have her baby safely and everything

771

was fine and she'd had a little bit

of bleeding, which can be normal.

772

And I remember there was a

bit on her hand and it sort of

773

smeared a little bit on her leg.

774

And just something in my brain was

a bit like, and it was two in the

775

morning, and night shifts were always

horrid, and in that moment we'd had

776

a delivery in Bangladesh where to save

the life of the mum, we had to help a

777

baby that had already died delivering.

778

It was probably one of the worst

experiences that anybody could experience.

779

And in that moment then in

Nottingham, two years later, I

780

felt that I was back in Bangladesh.

781

I could smell the wood smoke from

the hovels in this refugee camp.

782

I could smell the latrines.

783

I could almost like hear the rain, like

pitter pattering off the veranda outside.

784

And it was, I don't know,

one second, two seconds.

785

I don't know how long it lasted.

786

It could have been a lifetime, it could

have been, you know, a blink of an eye.

787

I don't know how long it lasted.

788

Probably a second, probably two seconds.

789

But my world had...

790

for a moment, I could see what was in

front of me, but every other sense was

791

back in the refugee camp, a flashback.

792

And I was scared.

793

I was really scared because I didn't

know which way was up or down.

794

Everything in my life was a bit chaotic.

795

I was making some really poor choices.

796

But then to not even know what

was real or not, I just thought

797

I felt like I was gonna die.

798

Like I really thought, how much worse can

I possibly, possibly feel and survive.

799

But thankfully, thank God for James.

800

So James in his life had reached

a point where he nearly died.

801

And actually his switch was flicked

and then he became a Buddhist and Zen

802

and this brilliant person he is today.

803

And thank God I knew of his

experience, because I think some

804

like animalistic part of me was

like, I cannot feel worse than this.

805

Like this, this can't be how life is now.

806

So I went to my GP who told me

I was far too young and far too

807

healthy looking to have P.T.S.D.

808

(Post Traumatic Stress

Disorder), which clearly I did.

809

VIKKI: Can I just call

absolute bullshit on that!

810

ANNA KENT: Yeah, absolutely!

811

Like...

812

it sounds a little bit like a humble

brag, but when I'm unwell I can still

813

look quite well, which I know sounds

really like egotistical, but I can say the

814

right things, I can do the right things.

815

I can still remember birthdays,

I can still function really

816

integrated into society and be

really, really quite unwell.

817

And it took a really brilliant therapist.

818

So I then took time off work.

819

He signed me off with stress, which

I guess it was, I was stressed.

820

That wasn't the core.

821

Wanted to put me on antidepressants.

822

And I said, "I don't want antidepressants

because I don't feel depressed."

823

Looking back, anxiety - and we'll

talk more hopefully about postnatal

824

anxiety over postnatal depression

as well - because I think I've

825

always been prone to anxiety.

826

I think it's like, even like my

social awareness as a child who's five

827

with Live Aid, I think actually was

probably quite anxiety triggering?

828

Like in hindsight.

829

So I took time off work, moved

into a Buddhist center in Sherwood,

830

Akshobya, just outside Nottingham.

831

And it was brilliant because I, I always

thought nuns and monks were some sort

832

of like superhuman, but actually they're

human who have this really brilliant

833

structure for dealing with all their human

weaknesses and fallibilities, who knew?

834

They're not martyrs either!

835

And I loved living there because I was

really struggling, but I found support.

836

So I stopped drinking.

837

I stopped smoking and stopped

the partying, which wasn't

838

bringing me happiness.

839

I thought it was my happiness.

840

It really wasn't.

841

VIKKI: Do you think it

was a coping mechanism?

842

ANNA KENT: I think it was

just a form of distraction.

843

I think we kid ourselves that one night

stands and partying hard is really fun.

844

Like that's the lie you sell

yourself in your twenties.

845

That really, when you get to

the end of your thirties, you're

846

like, "God, it's all fake!"

847

You know, it's like my drunk self is a

fun person to be around, but it's not me.

848

It's not my innate person.

849

It's, I'm pretending as James would always

say about like partying hard, is basically

850

"you're stealing tomorrow's happiness".

851

It's not sustainable, right.

852

It's not real.

853

VIKKI: Didn't your family as well

worry that you were sort of being

854

sucked into a cult by living in a...

855

ANNA KENT: Yeah.

856

I think it's all, it's about

what's tangible, isn't it?

857

So me flying into a war zone, because

it's so unimaginable, I think probably

858

didn't cause as much like aware....

859

I'm not saying they weren't worried,

but I think it's the unimaginable.

860

And I then would, you know, from the

war zone, or conflict zone, to be

861

accurate , I would then write these

really like peppy "Yep, I'm fine.

862

Here's a funny story about James.

863

Oh, I've seen a snake.

864

See you soon!"

865

Rather than, actually, "I think

my personality is fractured into

866

several pieces and I'm not sure

if I'm ever going to sleep again".

867

People You know that that's not

fair to send them that when they

868

can do absolutely nothing to help.

869

It's cruel to in some

ways, and yes it's true.

870

But again, one of the things for reading

the book is like, I feel like I can

871

tell now the whole full circle of it.

872

And so I'm not leaving people with harm.

873

I hope it would come full circle.

874

Yeah, I moved into the Buddhist

Centre and met a couple of therapists.

875

I don't think I put that in the book.

876

So one of the things I learned about

therapy, I used to hate the word.

877

It seemed so self-indulgent, "God,

I'm gonna go and speak to my therapist

878

of all these difficult things!"

879

Like I didn't even like

the language of therapy.

880

I felt a real aversion to it.

881

And I went to a couple of therapists

and one, she was a brilliant woman,

882

but when I told her a brief story of...

883

I was getting really intrusive dreams

that were so real, I would wake

884

so sweaty and it was birth stories

where I felt I'd failed over and over

885

and over and over and over again.

886

And one of the women that I'd met

with in therapy had basically burst

887

into tears at the first discussion.

888

And I thought, "I can't.

889

I can't share this black air that I felt,

this poison that I felt I was carrying

890

because I feel I'm gonna harm you".

891

So it's important to learn.

892

You don't have to stick with the

first therapist that you are given.

893

You can shop around essentially.

894

And the woman I really

connected with was older.

895

She was really stern.

896

She'd had a lived experience of family

who had been incarcerated at Auschwitz

897

and she specialised in complex P.T.S.D.

898

in military.

899

And the freedom that that gave to me is

that I felt that she wouldn't be harmed.

900

Because like, you cannot open

up to somebody fully if you

901

feel they will be harmed.

902

Because we care about other people.

903

We don't want to cause harm, right?

904

None of us want to.

905

One of the reasons we've got the trigger

warning at the front of the book, you

906

know, this book isn't for everybody,

but it it is true and it is real.

907

So if people feel they want

to read that book, brilliant.

908

But you know, it has to

be on their own terms.

909

And I can remember in one of them, I

was going over and over again, "this

910

dream, this dream, this dream.".

911

So she'd said, "try and write it

down, because that can disempower it".

912

And actually it was, it was like three

lines this, this dream, these dreams.

913

And it was always about

the patient that I'd lost.

914

You know, a thousand patients

would come to us a month and I'd

915

remember the one that died, you know.

916

And I couldn't remember, I can't

remember any of the names of the

917

patients, but I can, but I can

remember every single breath sound.

918

I can remember the name of all their kids.

919

I can remember which village they were in.

920

You know, that's again,

a symptom of trauma.

921

Like that micro memory of every

single turn of the seconds.

922

I mean, I, I won't go down

that rabbit hole, Anna.

923

Let's hold our inner selves

and pull ourselves back out!"

924

So she used to say, "I'm not

gonna indulge that, Anna."

925

And to begin with, I took offence at

that's like, "this isn't indulgent!

926

This isn't like gelato with chocolate

sauce or nuts, that's indulgent, surely!"

927

But she would hold me to

account with why that was still.

928

And one of the themes that she managed

to draw out from me was that I expected

929

- this is gonna sound ridiculous now

930

-

so in a refugee camp of 30,000 people, who had no access to

931

healthcare, I expected that I could

save every single life in there.

932

VIKKI: Wow.

933

ANNA KENT: Which of course nobody could.

934

But I'd never thought of it from that way.

935

I had to allow myself to be

human and fallible and fail.

936

And none of us want to fail.

937

And I had to learn that I did fail.

938

And actually that was also okay.

939

And that, can we go back,

that my intentions were good.

940

I didn't always succeed.

941

And I had to really forgive myself.

942

Because one of the other things I talk

about in the book, um, sorry, it sounds

943

like that was a dreadful plug for a book

that I, I didn't mean it in that way!

944

But I talk about moral injury

as well, which I'd never heard

945

of till I was doing research.

946

VIKKI: Was quite an epiphany

for you, discovering it?

947

ANNA KENT: Massive epiphany, yeah.

948

Moral injury.

949

So - I am not claiming to be a

pychotherapist, but what I, understood

950

it to be is that you - often through

work - that you have been forced

951

to overstep your moral boundaries.

952

And there can be a sense of fracturing

of your sense of self because you

953

have broken your own moral code.

954

So for me, my requisite for going

to South Sudan, Haiti, Bangladesh,

955

wherever was that "I am here

to save lives" and I couldn't.

956

So I've broken my own commitment

for why I'm there anyway, for

957

these lives that I've not saved.

958

But not only that, I have then been

around to witness what happens when you

959

can't save the life and bear witness

to the grieving families and lend that

960

guy a spade so he can bury his kid.

961

You know?

962

So not only are we breaking our own

moral code, but also we very much see,

963

feel, hear, sense the outer negative

impacts that trauma that just grows

964

and grows and grows and grows and grows.

965

So with what I felt from moral injury

with me, this sense of being poisonous,

966

the sense of this black, black gas.

967

I didn't realise I felt it until I was

feeling healthy and could look back at it.

968

But that's, that's how it felt to me.

969

Like this poison gas that could poison

other people, but also a deep sense of

970

shame, like a really deep sense of shame.

971

Like "I am probably the worst person

in the whole world", which is a little

972

bit around the ego as well, which

Buddhism has helped me to learn with.

973

Because our ego is that we only

see from our own sense of self.

974

So even if we're piling on again

- Buddhists out there, stop me if I'm wrong.

975

I don't claim to be Buddhist - my

understanding being that even if

976

you are seeing the world from, "I

am really dreadful", the world is

977

still the ego, this sense of self.

978

Whether that's good or bad is still

a celebration of that we're still

979

like completely committed to the ego.

980

But so I felt probably, yeah,

some form of complex P.T.S.D.

981

with some form of moral injury.

982

And like my way of healing from moral

injury, so writing has really helped me.

983

It gave me an opportunity

to forgive myself.

984

Because it is so obvious, now

it's down on paper, that my

985

expectations were completely off.

986

And the reality was I can

celebrate more our successes.

987

I feel I've given some ceremony to

the people that we couldn't save.

988

So I feel that bearing witness, you still

have a sense of duty within that because

989

"temoignage" like the core philosophy of

MSF to bear witness, but also speak out.

990

So I feel I've still tried my

humanest to give them some space

991

and some respect and some dignity.

992

And yeah, forgiving myself,

that's what it all comes down to.

993

And it's a daily, like with mindfulness,

with meditation, it's a daily practice.

994

And by stopping the partying and the

one night stands, what that actually was

995

doing was each time it was giving me a new

thing to feel dreadful and guilty about.

996

So by reducing the chaos in the world

and the new things that you're having

997

to pick up the pieces of every time,

but like by trying - with a lively

998

five year old - trying to have a

calmer existence, trying to be mindful

999

and give thanks and gratitude and

understand that we do all fail, you know?

00:53:01,277 --> 00:53:05,096

We do all have a variety of mental

health problems you know, and, so for

00:53:05,096 --> 00:53:10,946

me it was, what has helped me is a

really structured, strict therapist.

00:53:11,106 --> 00:53:11,456

With the C.B.T.

00:53:11,456 --> 00:53:13,353

(Cognitive Behavioural Therapy)

I found I connect with C.B.T.

00:53:13,373 --> 00:53:15,403

because it, it gave us structure and

it gave us something to work with.

00:53:15,463 --> 00:53:19,033

I know other people have benefitted with

person-centered therapy after trauma.

00:53:19,783 --> 00:53:24,943

So again, yeah, shop around I guess would

be my advice, but also just really looking

00:53:24,943 --> 00:53:27,243

at like, how we speak to ourselves.

00:53:27,573 --> 00:53:31,466

I've never even realised it, but until

the like the meditation side, I don't find

00:53:31,466 --> 00:53:35,666

chanting or 'OM'ing connects with me, but

I try and sit calmly and just body scan.

00:53:36,086 --> 00:53:40,316

But it really helps me recognise what

my inner voice is talking to me like.

00:53:40,316 --> 00:53:44,306

I would never say to other people

what my inner voice says to me.

00:53:44,933 --> 00:53:48,018

Of all the bad book reviews and stuff,

part of me is like, "you can't say

00:53:48,018 --> 00:53:49,538

anything worse than what I say to myself."

00:53:49,648 --> 00:53:50,108

Honestly!"

00:53:51,937 --> 00:53:52,267

VIKKI: Yeah.

00:53:52,657 --> 00:53:53,887

Your own inner critic.

00:53:54,617 --> 00:53:59,650

I just recently completed training

in children's children's yoga and our

00:53:59,650 --> 00:54:02,956

yoga teacher - I'll give a shout out

to her because she's just fabulous,

00:54:02,956 --> 00:54:07,663

Ayala Homassany - and she has a

brilliant approach to that, sort of

00:54:07,693 --> 00:54:12,203

inner critic because she was like,

"I'm gonna sit them down there and

00:54:12,203 --> 00:54:14,243

like build them a little golden stool.

00:54:14,248 --> 00:54:15,863

You can cover it in glitter, whatever.

00:54:16,223 --> 00:54:19,583

But whenever they come a calling,

you know, sit on my little stool.

00:54:19,833 --> 00:54:20,973

You are too loud.

00:54:20,973 --> 00:54:22,233

Just be quiet over there.

00:54:22,623 --> 00:54:26,590

You know, I'm acknowledging you, but

just sit on your stool and be quiet".

00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:28,843

And, I mean, gosh, you're so right.

00:54:29,063 --> 00:54:35,013

And for me, having learnt about

your story, the fact that you keep

00:54:35,013 --> 00:54:39,733

beating yourself up, when you've done

so much to help so many people...

00:54:39,738 --> 00:54:42,213

I just find that incredible.

00:54:42,623 --> 00:54:46,161

ANNA KENT: What's quite interesting

about parenting is because now

00:54:46,161 --> 00:54:47,541

I get this amazing experience.

00:54:47,541 --> 00:54:48,801

Like my daughter's five.

00:54:49,221 --> 00:54:50,506

I can't remember what it was even about.

00:54:50,836 --> 00:54:52,883

She was tired, she felt the rage.

00:54:52,883 --> 00:54:55,013

I don't even know what it was about,

but she was literally fizzing.

00:54:55,073 --> 00:55:00,953

Like she was so angry about this, what

I felt was quite a mediocre thing.

00:55:02,363 --> 00:55:05,633

And I just thought, "ah, we

often don't talk about anger."

00:55:05,633 --> 00:55:09,143

Like anger is still a taboo

societally, sometimes.

00:55:09,793 --> 00:55:10,433

VIKKI: Especially for girls.

00:55:11,533 --> 00:55:12,083

ANNA KENT: Especially for girls.

00:55:12,433 --> 00:55:12,983

And anger.

00:55:13,493 --> 00:55:14,753

Actually anger can save your life.

00:55:14,873 --> 00:55:16,283

There are things we should be angry about.

00:55:16,283 --> 00:55:20,183

If somebody is putting your life in

danger, if somebody's marginalising you,

00:55:20,813 --> 00:55:24,563

if somebody is putting you in harm's

way, we should be angry about that.

00:55:24,713 --> 00:55:27,453

There is still mindfulness , within

anger, I believe so, you know,

00:55:27,633 --> 00:55:30,213

just bouncing off the walls,

that isn't gonna help everybody.

00:55:30,573 --> 00:55:35,703

But if we can take this important emotion

of anger, this fire, this fury, which is

00:55:35,708 --> 00:55:41,973

so bloody important that we don't lose,

but use it in a way that is gonna help us.

00:55:42,333 --> 00:55:45,196

Then, you know, we

get the benefits of it.

00:55:45,616 --> 00:55:48,141

So I sat next to her and I

said, "I'll sit here and I will

00:55:48,141 --> 00:55:50,961

sit with you through this moment

for as long as you need me to."

00:55:50,961 --> 00:55:53,691

I said, "I know you feel dreadful

and I know you feel horrid.

00:55:54,411 --> 00:55:56,241

This feeling that you've got is anger.

00:55:56,871 --> 00:55:59,601

So what we're gonna do, we're

gonna wait for the fizz to go".

00:55:59,841 --> 00:56:03,321

I know it wasn't as scripted

as it's coming out right now!

00:56:03,591 --> 00:56:06,531

I was just like, "well, we're gonna wait

for the fizz to go and whatever it is

00:56:06,531 --> 00:56:09,681

that is the problem, we're gonna sort it

out and we're gonna sort it out together.

00:56:09,681 --> 00:56:13,076

So let's just sit, let's just that

feeling, that horrible feeling that

00:56:13,076 --> 00:56:16,101

you don't know what to do with it

is gonna come and then let's just

00:56:16,101 --> 00:56:17,251

take it step by step from there."

00:56:17,281 --> 00:56:21,261

And I almost felt like this higher self

was like my inner child that is still

00:56:21,291 --> 00:56:22,881

really angry about a lot of stuff.

00:56:23,471 --> 00:56:26,451

I thought that was like this little

hug to my own inner child as well.

00:56:26,451 --> 00:56:29,121

So it like, it can be

fascinating parenting that

00:56:29,126 --> 00:56:31,971

way, I was like, "ah, this!"

00:56:32,211 --> 00:56:34,911

Like even complex things

like body autonomy.

00:56:35,151 --> 00:56:38,121

Somebody can't touch you if they don't

want you to like actually, when you

00:56:38,331 --> 00:56:43,251

step through it step by step with a five

year old, it actually makes so much then

00:56:43,256 --> 00:56:45,141

more sense to my inner self as well.

00:56:45,141 --> 00:56:48,621

So I'm, yeah, I'm grateful

I've had a chance to learn

00:56:48,626 --> 00:56:54,361

all this big self-awareness

stuff through mindfulness, etc.

00:56:55,105 --> 00:56:57,521

VIKKI: Oh, that's, neatly

wrapped up episode one.

00:56:57,551 --> 00:56:59,261

Thank you so much for joining me.

00:56:59,266 --> 00:57:03,544

And, in episode two, in the

follow on, we will talk about

00:57:03,614 --> 00:57:05,281

your experience of motherhood.

00:57:05,741 --> 00:57:07,861

So thank you so much Anna.

00:57:08,231 --> 00:57:10,301

Welcome, thanks so much for having me!

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Thank you.

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The theme music is 'Sunrise

Expedition' by Joseph MacDade.

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New episodes are released the first

Monday of each month, available

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on all major podcast platforms.

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Hit follow to keep up with all the latest,

and if you enjoy Blue MumDays, please

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leave us a review on Apple Podcasts.

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It helps more people to find us.

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Thank you so much.