Friendship and companionship give purpose to labor and sustain people in work and grief. We discuss why we have missed a few weeks of the podcast, and we catch back up with Will Rose on how his Sabbatical went! Pastor Will draws on Ecclesiastes to argue that two are better than one and that friendship enriches vocation and productivity. He describes his sabbatical, its rest and reflection, and the way discernment guides where he spends his energy. Joshua Noel and TJ Blackwell probe practical church logistics, volunteer roles, and the unseen work that keeps worship and community life functioning. The hosts and guest emphasize healthy boundaries, the value of shared ministry, and simple practices—such as reflecting on the altar and who gathers there—to foster unity and resilience.

Will Rose frames the central meditation on vocation and rest with a reading from Ecclesiastes and a sustained account of his recent sabbatical. He describes deliberate time for reading, travel, family, and study. He reports progress on a book that unites surf culture with theology. The speaker situates sabbatical as a disciplined, communal practice. He explains its roots in Sabbath and jubilee traditions and its role in preventing burnout. He states that the work of ministry requires periodic renewal so that one may continue to serve with clarity and care.

Joshua Noel and TJ Blackwell respond with questions and reflections that surface the tensions of modern ministry. They probe how one balances obligations to family, congregation, and personal projects. A recurrent theme is the necessity of discernment. The trio converge on the idea that vocation is a pattern of gathering and sending. Will affirms that presiding at the altar and serving people remain his core calling. He names serenity, courage, and wisdom as guiding principles for future decisions.

Takeaways:

• Pastor Rose explains the purpose and value of a sabbatical for pastoral renewal and life discernment.
• Will notes that friendship and companionship improve meaning and productivity in both labor and ministry.
• Joshua and TJ discuss practical church logistics, including parking lot maintenance, campus ministry access, and volunteer role distribution.
• Will reflects on balancing multiple vocational interests, such as podcasting, book writing, and parish duties, to avoid burnout.
• Pastor Will recommends reflective practice at worship by focusing on the altar and the congregation's continuity across generations.
• They all acknowledge grief and changing life seasons, urging acceptance, courage to change what is possible, and wisdom.

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You can leave a donation, buy podcast merchandise, check out previous series that we've done, or become an official member of The Whole Church Podcast on our website:

https://the-whole-church-podcast-shop.fourthwall.com/

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Check out all of the other shows in the Anazao Podcast Network and find merch to support some of your favorite podcasts on the network's website:

https://anazao-podcasts-shop.fourthwall.com/

.

Listen to all of our Holy Logistics series here:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/0baf30ad-3ecd-47a9-bbb4-d67e61e1919e

.

Hear more of Will on Systematic Geekology, Your Matter Matters, and The Homily:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/4559ab55-4b6a-4432-b0a7-b61540df8803

https://your-matter-matters.captivate.fm/listen

https://the-homily-with-chill-will.captivate.fm/listen

.

Listen to more of TJ on Systematic Geekology:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/f4c32709-d8ff-4cef-8dfd-5775275c3c5e

.

Hear more from Joshua on his other podcast, Be Living Water:

https://be-living-water.captivate.fm/listen

.

Be sure to come out and meet Joshua at Theology Beer Camp 2026 in Kansas City:

https://theologybeer.camp/

Ecclesiastes, chapter 4, verses 8 through 10 in the New American Standard Bible reads, there was a certain man without a dependent, having neither a son nor a brother.

Yet there was no end to all his labor.

Indeed, his eyes were not satisfied with riches, and he never asked, and for whom am I laboring in depriving myself of pleasure?

This, too is vanity, and it is a grievous task.

Two are better than one because they have a good return for their labor.

For if either of them falls, the other will lift up his companion.

But woe to the one who falls when there is not another to lift him up.

Kingdom Hearts often says, my friends are my power.

Okay, anyway.

In the book of Ecclesiastes, the preacher here writes about the meaninglessness of life and how pointless life might seem at times, especially without friends.

Who are your power?

Here he expresses how friendship actually helps productivity and also brings meaning to our work.

Pastor Will Rose.

Why do you believe the author of Ecclesiastes found it so important to contrast the way that our labor is impacted by loneliness with the help that comes from a friend working with us?

Hmm.

I love that.

I really love the book of Ecclesiastes, and it's one of my favorite books in the Bible.

And it's not deep theological systematic theology when it comes to, like, the doctrine of God, but in terms of wrestling with existential questions of what's the meaning of life?

The author here really gets into it.

And I like to think of the author as being someone who's later in life, older, and is reflecting back on how they spent their life and their energy and what they did with their time and perhaps grieving that they didn't use the time wisely or used it on fleeting things that are just dust in the wind.

And so for me, I think about this as, like, as someone who's just coming off sabbatical, reflecting on what's my vocation, what am I called to, where do I spend my time, where do I spend my energy?

And then once you let some things go and then lean into other things in life, I. I think they're.

They're going.

You know, there's some things with work you can work yourself to death, and it's not.

It doesn't mean anything.

You're just wasting your energy.

But what about friendship?

What about companionship?

What about those things that do.

Does endure or enrich your life?

And I think.

I think that's worth getting out right there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Things that endure, like Kingdom Hearts 24th anniversary just happened.

Going on 25.

Okay.

No, that's good stuff.

Appreciate it.

Love those words.

Yeah.

Ready to get into some good conversation here.

Foreign.

Hey, guys, welcome back to Holy Logistics miniseries we're doing on the whole church podcast that's had some interruptions.

And spirit of the series, we're gonna get behind the scenes why you haven't had an episode.

In a couple weeks.

We're gonna talk about our lives, what's going on with the podcast.

We're also back Pastor Will Rose.

He's my pastor.

He was here earlier this year talking about sabbatical.

We're gonna get behind the scenes of sabbatical, what that was like, what he was doing those couple months that he had off.

So excited to get into this one and to just kind of catch you guys up on our lives.

Yeah.

Speaking of, I'm Joshua Noel.

I'm a co host that you don't really care about.

You know our guest already, Pastor Will Rose.

Already discussed, but I forgot to introduce the one who started it all, the Pod Almighty.

The one who.

Not sure if you're aware of this, but when he created a podcast about Gondor, that's when JRR Tolkien had the idea for Lord of the Rings.

TJ Tabor, your Swan Blackwell inspiration for Tolkien.

How's it going?

Good, thanks.

Yeah.

So Will Rose, if you don't know him yet, is the pastor of Holy Trinity Lutheran Church in Chapel Hill, North Carolina.

He's also one of the hosts of Systematic Ecology and you'd Matter Matters.

Will is also the author of I sure Am Gonna Miss that Guy, which is a great little read, nice little reflection.

But if you're not familiar with him, you need to get familiar with him because he's a great guy.

Chill, Will.

The thrill contradictorily.

Yeah.

But you got a link to your Matter matters and a link to all of the episodes of Systematic Ecology with Will Rose on it.

Yeah.

So you guys can check that out,.

But you can go to our website and purchase one of our T shirts.

It helps promote the show, it raises money for podcast music, and it helps others know about the importance of our mission to educate and unite the modern church.

My favorite is, of course, the TJ quote on the back.

It's great.

Simple, easy.

Yeah, it says nothing.

Probably the best thing TJ ever said.

I mean, it's not true, but many.

Say that it's the most often thing that TJ says.

Yes.

His most common catchphrase.

Yes, that is certainly true.

So, yeah, check out the Anzhai Podcast Network website.

The links below for Other shows like this, which we've already talked about a couple.

Yeah, yeah.

Your Matter Matters Faith and Science podcast.

This Mike Ecology.

If you want your pop culture ecumenical work.

You know, we don't talk about that a lot on sg.

Like, we don't talk about the fact that it's church unity or ecumenicism, but, like, we have Southern Baptist, a Lutheran, Pentecostal, some Methodist.

We've had Catholics on there before.

Orthodox priest Jonathan.

Father Jonathan, you guys are aware of.

He's been on the show a couple times, you know, so it is a little bit of an ecumenical work with pop culture.

So if you're interested in whole church and you're like, man, what about pop culture?

Check it out.

But for now, is there a word.

That we could use for ecumenist.

Ecumenical work, but geek work.

Because, like, you know, they have different denomination.

Geek.

Humanical.

Geek.

Humanacle.

Because Star Trek, Star Wars, Kingdom Hearts, Lord of the Rings, you know, even versions and eras within Star Wars.

People like or don't like, they consider themselves the OG or the prequels or the.

Whatever.

Yeah, you could.

You could bring them down the table.

And there's division and there's toxicity in there too, believe it or not.

And if you're worried that this conversation is too serious, don't worry.

My favorite form of church unity coming up, Silliness.

Mm.

We're gonna ask a silly question because you can't be divided when you're being as silly as I like to be.

This one's topical because of things Will's been talking about recently on other podcasts and on his Facebook page.

But we'll answer first.

Give time.

Think about it.

Will.

Actually, I feel like I should get to answer last because I don't think about this movie at all.

If Surf's up featured some other animal rather than penguins as the titular characters, which species DJ do you think would be the silliest to be the prominent species of Surfs Up?

So it would need to be silly, but it would also still need to, like, work.

I think it works.

Very specific framework of, like, penguin culture.

But that being said, walruses.

Oh, man, that's a good one.

All right, well, give me time to think.

I. I would think that walruses would.

You got to be really mindful of their twofers so they don't, like, ding up their surfboards.

Like, it could really damage others, and that's a challenge.

And the.

Yeah, I did a Facebook post about favorite surf movies that have, like, surfing as its main plot, not just cameos.

From surfing and had some great answers on there.

And Surf's Ups Up There is one of the best surf movies of all time.

And for me, I was thinking about.

It's not necessarily silliest, but it's silly, but can also really work because of the genre and the plot.

But I'm going to kangaroos because.

Because I really want to hear, like, Australian accents because some of the best surfers in the world from Australia, it's a national sport.

A lot of good surfers come out of Australia.

And I just love hearing Australians talk.

And so Australian speaking kangaroos surfing with their pockets and their tails and, you know, fighting it out on the wave would be.

Would be a lot of fun.

But it does also, it's not really fair to say that it is just about penguins because, like, we do see other animals.

Other animals are involved.

Other animals.

That's why I said titular characters, you.

Know, but yeah, like, the water says tubular.

Tubular characters, tubular character.

Yeah.

This is hard.

Chicken Jeff.

This is hard for me.

I. I wanted to cop out and to say beagles because I have a beagle and anything they do is silly.

But TJ said it has to work.

And as someone who owns a beagle, they're terrified of everything.

And they would never get on a surfboard.

Just.

It wouldn't work.

They don't like their feet touch.

They don't like water.

Like, I thought it was just my beagle, but, like, I follow some beagle Instagram pages and it's like, it's just a thing.

I just don't think it would work.

Then I wanted to say turtles because they just want to be slow the whole time.

And I don't think that's silly as much as it would just be boring.

Also, sea turtles aren't really slow.

So, like, if you do sea turtles, it super doesn't work.

Yeah, I'm going to go with.

We'll mention Australia.

I'm going to go platypus.

Because then you could also have the angle of, like, people calling him a freak and all this stuff and whatever, and you still get the Australian accents and someone can make the joke.

The main character could be Perry.

So someone would be like, oh, wait, Perry the platypus.

And then just, you know, just a.

Funny little crossover side crossover event.

Crossover event.

Yeah, make me happy.

Yeah, that think would be the silliest.

Not a series historically good with crossovers.

Notably, you need some Ferb.

No fancy killer crossovers.

Oh, great crossovers of Phineas, Star Wars,.

Phineas and the Ferb.

Is peak Star wars crossover.

It really is.

But I'm talking about Surf Sub and surf sub 2, unfortunately.

Do they crossovers?

I don't know if I saw Surf's Up Too good.

Don't, man.

I was going to and then TJ told me not to, so I didn't.

Don't.

Yeah.

Literally, it was like I was listening to my ecology.

They did a drive in movie and TJ on the shows goes, definitely, everyone should watch Surfs Up.

Nobody should ever watch Surfs up too, because then they might make something like that again.

Hey, that's what he said.

And I was like, you know, he's a man.

A few words.

So when he's that opinionated, I listen.

You know, it's intentional.

Yeah, yeah, that's intentional.

But we hope you enjoyed that sacrament.

It's very important to us and you can weigh in with your own thoughts.

But there is the elephant in the room.

Not on the board, as it were.

It's been a while since we've been up here in your ears on the show.

Elephant would be a hilarious.

Pretty funny.

Yeah.

Sorry.

Big surfboard.

But we haven't been very consistent lately.

And that is due to a number of reasons.

Grief over not seeing Will, work schedules colliding.

Mostly that.

Yeah.

Mostly work schedules.

Family issues, all kinds of stuff.

Josh and I have the same job and it's rough.

It is brutal.

A whole lot of hours.

Yeah.

Both of our works have gotten a lot more demanding as we've stepped up, especially in ours.

My grandmother passed away.

I feel like you probably didn't want to specifically say that and just say family issues because it's not your grandmother.

And that makes sense.

And then a week after that, my cat died.

And like, oh, well, you know, I'm not one of those who's like, I can't work because my pet died.

But like, timing wise, it was kind of just like being kicked while you were down, you know?

And I was like, ah, I just really haven't done anything.

That's the honest truth.

We have an episode recorded that I can edit.

I just haven't felt like doing anything.

And I. I apologize.

But sometimes that's just how life is.

Yeah.

And Will has been on sabbatical, has recently returned from sabbatical.

What's up, man?

How was it?

What do you do?

It was good.

Yeah.

Last time I was on here, we were talking about me going on sabbatical and what sabbaticals are and what they aren't.

It's not a three week paid vacation for Ministers.

But there's behind it and it's biblical in terms of not only is, you know, honor this a commandment to keep the Sabbath and honor the seventh day of the week or whatever day you take Sabbath, but also the earth groans for Sabbath.

There's years of jubilee and years of every seventh year.

Take, take some time.

And so as a policy and a suggestion and encouragement from my denomination and my senate and my congregation, every seven years rost pastors are encouraged to take three months sabbatical to do some rest, renewal, refocus, some continuing education, reflection, be re energized so they can hop back into their called context and keep doing the best work that they can do in terms of shepherding people and ministering and being a leader within their congregation and the whole church, capital C. And so that's what I did.

This is my second one.

Got that one under but really needed that because I was in ministry for 19 years, a couple different congregations, but had been at Holy Trinity for seven years.

And so that was a really great time and sabbatical this time, you know, seven years later, time flies time for another one.

And this was another great, great sabbatical.

You know, the, the world in a lot of ways is different.

In a lot of ways it's the same.

There's still a lot going on.

There's a lot of anxiety around what's going on in the world.

And so my church feels it, my neighbor it, our communities feel it.

And so to take a step back and to get some rest and to unplug and decompress so that I can get ready for what's going on this fall in our world and neighborhoods and everything was good.

Now they're out of college and getting ready to get done with college in their 20s and they can now go out to bars with us.

So seven years ago we couldn't take, take our whole family out to like bar trivia or to a bar in Spain, but this time in Spain my oldest kid found like a back underground speakeasy that had a secret passage door through somewhere to go and hang out.

And that was fun.

So yeah, tons of stuff.

I can go all day about all we went but did some traveling locally in the States, travel overseas, read some books.

And then I also wanted to keep working on A book that.

That I've been thinking about for a while, God is a Surfer.

About my theology of surfing philosophy and approach to the surfing and how that can be an approach also to our daily lives.

And then with leading different surf camps and surfing my whole life ways.

There's some content I already had that I was going to put in there.

So I did not finish it.

We did too much travel.

I just did not finish the book.

But I did get a good.

I did make progress on it and a good outline and good structure.

So that's.

That's my hope and goal.

Awesome.

Sweet.

Yeah.

Notably did not visit me at all during sabbatical, but that's okay.

Yeah, same actually.

But I expect.

We went.

Yeah, he didn't come to my house, but I did see him.

We went to house of comics.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which is better, I think.

Pretty cool.

Yeah.

I was at work, working hard, and Josh sent me a picture of him and Waylon.

I'm like, oh, cool.

I'm sorry.

Screw that picture.

Made my slide.

I share with my congregation this past week.

Who's that guy?

I was like, that's Joshua.

Just like ecology plug.

That's Joshua.

He goes part of the church.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But just on a not very regular basis.

Yeah.

We actually also get sabbaticals, so.

Yeah, I remember that last time you're talking about.

I haven't seen it yet.

I know.

I know two people who have had theirs, but mine will be in about.

Two years, so I don't believe mine's gonna happen.

I don't believe yours is gonna happen either.

It is.

Even sabbatical themselves are our disciplines because it is to decompress and to remove yourself from something that you do on a daily, weekly basis.

It takes some time to almost detox and decompress that and to kind of figure out how to you live your life without this thing that you always have to do every day or keep keeping track of people and all that.

So a lot of work was done for my congregation leading up to it, so that all the responsibilities were taken care of.

And it wasn't just, I'm leaving, I'll see you in three months, and everybody's left for themselves.

There's some hard planning to do with that.

But also, you know, like Ecclesiastes, you're reflecting on what's meaningful.

What am I doing with my life?

Do I want to Keep doing this.

My life, all those things are, are important and it's, I mean there's definitely people who are my congregation and other places you'd be like, wow, I wish I could, I could get a sabbatical and you know, and, and yeah, take some time for yourself.

But I think in terms of like professors and teachers who are doing continuing ed and research and then those in the service industry, those who are in the caring industry, who are on the clock 24:7, where I don't really clock in and clock out.

I have time, days off.

I have, I set some boundaries of when I check email and, and work for the church and other times to, you know, as Joshua said, I don't, I need to time so that I'm not just like all caught up with that.

That's important.

But, but to, to reflect so you can keep doing this and so you don't, so you don't get burnt out.

People get burned out.

So how do you keep from, from being burnt, burnout and so out there to the listeners.

If you are serving a congregation, if you're ministering to a congregation, you have not had a sabbatical and you, you've been ministering for a number of years, seven to 10 to 15 years, you haven't had a sabbatical.

And you would like me to come in and like share with your governing board or your church council, your mutual ministry or why sabbaticals are important and then what they are and what they aren't.

I'd be happy to be that advocate for you.

Sometimes for you to advocate for yourself can be kind of weird.

You're like, I just need three months away from you guys.

They're like, what?

They take it personally, but it's just like, no, come in and talk about the benefits of what it is, what isn't.

I'd be happy to come, come and talk and build that up wherever your context of ministry.

Yeah, it's definitely challenging because I can already foresee it, the challenges that I'm going to have on mine if I get to take it.

There is no way that I'm going to be able to go two months because ours is two months without eating at Chipotle.

That's just not going to happen currently.

That part I could do easily.

No, if I go like four days, I start itching.

Yeah, yeah, you can go to another, somewhere else.

You know, I still went to church.

I didn't come to Holy Trinity because I would be seen as a clock, as the pastor.

But across my sabbatical I visited other churches, other traditions, basilicas, small little non denominational church, my mom church back in Wilming.

I went to another friend's church.

Like I still went to church and, and worshiped.

And it was great to sit in the pew and, and not be in charge, but to soak up worship that way rather than being worship leader, which was very meaningful to me, especially going with my mom and taking my mom.

So, yeah, you will still eat tj.

You still may eat Chipotle, but one you're not in charge of.

Yeah, I know we have to move on.

We got a lot of other stuff we need to go through.

But sometimes I feel like me being a weirdo is good for conversations.

I just want to point out for those listening, there are people like myself who probably will have a harder time with it.

And you have to find different ways to do stuff like this.

Part of being ADHD is you hyper fixate, which means if I did take a sabbatical, I would still have to find something that I would just end up.

That would be what I spent all my time on.

For me, it's even hard to have two days off in a row.

And it's not because, like, I can't rest or like I don't have stuff that I want to do.

It's just like my brain will go from not focusing on anything to.

This is literally the only thing I can focus on.

So sometimes if you're not neurotypical, you got to get a little creative with how you find these moments.

But rest is still important.

If you have to be creative with how you find your rest, I think that's okay.

Yeah, like, I, I definitely didn't sit still.

I was, I was traveling.

I found projects around the house.

I've let go for a while.

Like, I, I was not bored.

There's books that I picked up that I've really been looking forward to reading.

Wr my own book, going on spiritual retreat, visiting places like it.

I, I fit a lot in.

This one it was like, oh, let's, let's pack a lot in.

So we just packed in a lot.

So when I got back, it was, you know, that whole like phrase people hate hearing I need a vacation for my vacation.

I was like, I don't want to say.

They were like, are you rested or don't you feel restored?

I'm like, I'm still kind of tired.

Because I just got back off the plane yesterday.

But yeah, funny story.

Real that story.

Funny, funny tidbit.

I'm at Chipotle now.

I've came and gone a couple times.

It was just a part time thing I was doing for fun.

It really wasn't even about money.

And then that's how that turned out for me.

So here we go.

Notably, notably Josh's sabbatical will be like nine years from now because it's based on continuous service.

Yeah.

And then I'll end up hyper fixating on whatever and then that'll end up being my career for a decade.

And you know, who knows hopefully as a Lutheran minister because that's the goal and hopefully it's before nine years because I'm not doing that.

Yeah.

But for this series we have a special segment that we're calling Fact or Fantasy where we're asking everyone a series of rapid questions to start off and help us get a sense of what is a fact and what is a fantasy.

Considering how the sausage of the church is gets made.

If you know what I mean.

If you don't know what I mean.

Sorry.

Sorry.

Go work in a sausage factory.

Yeah.

Maybe maybe get a little bit more life experience.

I don't know.

Sausages are intrinsically.

But are you ready Will but delicious.

I think so.

I think so.

All right.

So what monthly expenses does a church have that many people may not think.

Of anyone's go like office supplies copier.

But I think people, people know that.

But we have two big parking lots and so every now and then then you have to repave and re stripe those parking lots because they get a lot of work.

So I think that's something to think about down the road that yeah you probably don't think about it because you just park there and walk away.

But that's something.

Parking lot maintenance is.

Is a thing.

It is.

What's a struggle that church leadership faces regularly that may shock some people to think about?

Oh I have like a number of these but I think I, I'll share one and a half first.

You know I think the ministers are called to be non anxious presence.

Be a non anxious presence for an anxious world and anxious people.

And so they're always called to be like or.

Or expected to be the ones in control and non anxious.

But you know we, we wrestle with a lot too and we're anxious about A lot of things.

So give us a break.

The other one is, is like when people give like micro aggressions or they think they're being helpful to give suggestions.

Church leadership take that as criticism.

So I've been working on a sermon for a month or a whole week, and then all of a sudden, you know what, it would have been cool if you said or did this.

You're like, wow, of all that work.

That.

And, and that's, that's what you, you're gonna say to me after church.

Thanks.

So it doesn't mean you can't be critical or be invested in your congregation, but small microaggressions or what you think are being helpful by giving suggestions, we take it as wow, I guess I'm not good enough.

Right.

Same thing goes for people who try to tell you how to make a burrito when you go to the restaurant.

Yeah, there's some similarities there.

There's some similarities.

So what is the most interesting room in your church and how does the layout of the room serve the functionality of that room?

I'm gonna go with our campus ministry center or room.

And it's because it's a door in our congregation.

Since we're on the doorstep of University of North Carolina, go Tar Heels and basketball, but I'm not sure about football.

We have, our students have 24.

7 Access to that room.

They have a code.

They can come in.

There's a kitchen, there's a lounge area, but there's another area where there's like couches and a TV and also WI fi where they can study.

So that room is like a youth room except for college students.

And they have 24.

7 Access to that so that they can, they can use it.

So, so for us, in terms of being a welcoming, warm congregation, especially for our students.

And that's, that's one of my favorite rooms.

And the.

In the church, that's pretty cool.

It's functional.

Yes.

How important is the layout of the worship area in a church building?

I think it's important, but I think like church buildings and architecture is similar to like our taste.

Like everybody loves good cheeseburger, right?

But some people might like spicy food, people might like mild food or Indian food or whatever.

When you walk into a church, people are looking for what?

Traditional stained glass, Gothic, A big.

I went to a lot of different churches over my sabbatical and saw big, big basilicas that are just like awe inspiring.

And then tiny, small, one room house churches that only fit 20 people and kept it really, really simple.

But all of them had an altar and a focus of what, what happens there in terms of sacrament and, and God's word.

And so I think it does.

It's with taste.

So some people like modern, some people like traditional, some people.

You know, I think when you go and how you feel in that room, if you feel you're in the presence of God and it's opening, warm and welcoming with the people in it, the room matters.

But I think the people in the room matter just as much.

That's true.

It's always true.

So now in one or two word answers.

I mean, this is hard.

Yeah, this is, this is difficult.

Sorry.

But can you explain who is responsible for each of the following areas at your local church?

You can say it's not applicable or that you don't know which is three words if you want.

Okay, so it's actually one word you're supposed to say.

I don't know.

Yeah.

Okay.

Landscaping, property team, budgeting, finance team, slash everyone.

Hospital visits, ministers, wedding and funeral arrangements.

Bereavement team.

Funerals.

That's for funerals.

Weddings, pastoral staff, Theological correction, ministers, building maintenance, property team.

Why don't you say it like that?

Worship set lists.

Because we're dealing with a lot of building stuff right now and it hits home.

It stings.

There's a lot of emails I got back from sabbatical and there's a lot of building talk.

Don't own building people just do open air, coffee shop, churches.

No, we can talk about that later.

Worship set list.

Worship planning.

That's going to be director of worship and music teaching.

Ministers, slash lay ministers.

All right.

Parking lot traffic, everyone.

We don't have that.

We don't.

We don't have big enough where we need someone to be in charge of that.

But.

But yeah, everyone.

You're in charge of parking your car, not hitting anybody.

Right.

Greeting and welcoming people.

Everybody.

Everybody.

That's, you know, it's a community.

Community.

All right.

You know, I think it's just my job.

I think it's just staff and other people just will.

I. I like that.

I had two follow up questions and I waited like a good host.

Look at you.

So one, I thought there was an easier one I'm trying to go through because you had it.

It was during the thing wasn't worshipless.

Theological correction, Wedding, funeral, hospital visits.

But where was it in here?

I don't remember what the other one was.

The other one was specifically because you were talking about the cool room that you have for the college kids or whatever.

And maybe I'M being cynical and I'm apologize.

How do you prevent crime if it's open 24 7?

Clearly you're not there 24 7.

But like, how do you keep stuff?

We're just like, you know what?

I can walk in here.

There's a stove.

I can burn this place.

You know, it's, it's, it's a door with a code so that only the students who are members of our ministry have that code.

So it's not like just the doors open.

All you have to do, punch in the code and no one is.

We.

We.

No one's allowed to sleep here or stay here overnight after midnight.

Our parking lot.

You did.

We've had lock ins.

We've had sleepovers, we've had retreats.

There, there, there are exceptions to that rule, but no one's allowed to just live here for, for a week that, that, you know, after midnight, all the cars in our parking lot will get towed, no matter who it's not.

No overnight parking.

And there's a code to the door so people can come in and out.

And there's an honor system there.

If we feel like two people get the code or come in they're not supposed to, we'll change the code.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

More than the other one.

I'm curious.

Yeah.

I can't remember what it was, but it made me think of other questions, which is terrible.

But it's fine.

This is podcasting.

A few times you just answered ministers.

So this is actually just good for me to know because I'm becoming Lutheran still.

In Pentecostal Baptist circles that I kind of grew up in, you have like, there's a teaching pastor, the lead pastor, there's whatever.

So, like if someone asks, like who does correctional, whatever, they would be like, oh, that's the head pastor only or teaching.

That's the teaching pastor.

You just say ministers.

So are all ministers equal?

I was intentional.

Yeah.

So we do have pastors.

Two called pastors here at Holy Trinity, Pastor Katie and myself.

And so we went through seminary.

We were called and ordained.

We wear the cl.

Clerical collar.

We wear the stole on Sunday.

We're word and sacrament.

We preside over word and sacrament and the pastoral ministry.

Shepherding the, the church ministers is more general because we have people in the congregation that aren't necessarily ordained pastors, but we consider them ministers there.

We believe in the priesthood of all believers.

Everyone's a minister.

And so what are you ministering to?

So we have people that love, that aren't that are, you know, Aren't pastors or go to seminary, but they have the love of, of teaching scripture or teaching a Sunday school class.

A minister, lowercase M, you know, kind of thing that they're not like a minister, ordained minister, pastor in the Lutheran Church.

And yet we're all ministers.

We all have entrusted with ministry through our baptism.

So, so, so ministers, we have music ministers, we have choir.

I consider everybody doing ministry in their daily lives wherever their gifts are, whether they're budgeting, helping us do accounting for our budget, or whether they're singing so on the choir or if they're teaching study school.

So I guess a podcast for you, maybe.

That's right, podcast.

Maybe an editing minister.

Yeah, yeah, it's fun.

That was.

Yeah.

Lutherans do believe in the like priesthood of all believers.

That's like a phrase we use, right?

Yep.

It's interesting because Baptists do too.

But they seem to be more importance on delegation in the Baptist church, I think, and roles, everyone having a role.

Place, you know, and there's good order for that too.

Like there's good structure and order.

Like we believe in that too.

Like the, I think the default, religious default, is people look at our full time church staff as the professional Christians in their midst.

And so they're called to a higher living standard and they don't cuss in traffic and they're so holy.

But you know, if you ever see me in traffic, yeah, I'm a normal everyday person too.

But and, and then we have roles and titles and there's probably some hierarchy there in terms of decision making with governing boards and ministry teams and that kind of stuff.

But theologically we believe that there's no higher or lower professional Christian.

Jesus loves me more because I'm a pastor.

Somebody loves Aunt Susie better because she's, you know, is here every Sunday cooking communion bread or bacon.

Communion bread.

Like we all have a role on that kind of thing.

Although I do have a friend who's an atheist who swears that God likes me more than other people.

He's like, he's lucky verbatim.

The thing that he says several times was, I don't believe in God, but he definitely likes you.

I just think it's funny.

He's very lucky.

Yeah.

And you know, I don't know what's funny.

So you mentioned how, you know, pastors also, you know, cuss and traffic, whatever.

You're maybe not cuss, but, you know, whatever some pastors do.

I think what's funny is how people seem to put priorities on different kinds of problems.

Like, oh, that's someone who does this.

Or they have a drinking problem, whatever, and they don't think of other stuff.

So like, like with me, I think my biggest downfall as a human is less like, guys, I don't cuss in traffic.

If you see me in traffic, I'm probably listening to a Disney song and having a good time.

Like, I really just do not care that I am in traffic.

Most of the time I don't like being in the car at all.

Traffic really doesn't influence my state of mind at all.

But when we're around a bunch of people, Will, I feel like has a much easier time.

Like, I love every single person there and my brain is, I love you all, but please do not talk to me.

Just don't talk to me.

And that's where I feel like my struggle is.

And I don't think one is worse than the other.

It's just one of those things that I noticed a lot of times we talk about certain things and not others.

And they're all issues.

Yeah.

And those personalities come in the gifts of the church.

And Paul uses that.

The body image, the hand and the foot and the ears and the nose and the eyes.

And we all have our roles.

And so I think introverts extroverts your personality.

What you feel drawn to, what gives you energy.

Enneagram whatever you want to put on it.

In terms of personality types, I am a person who just.

Yeah, I. I will talk to every person in the room and I will find friends in that room.

And I, I just off the chart extrovert.

So that's just part of my thing.

So sometimes I need to be told, will, you don't need to talk to everybody in the room, please, please.

Like that kind of thing.

So.

So I think we grow and know what we're good at.

We know what our default is, we know what our gifts are, but also what we can grow in to that.

So I think, I think that self awareness is healthy.

It's a little ironic though, me pursuing the pastorate when, like, you know, you being an unanxious presence.

I am an unanxious presence unless people are around.

So like anytime I'm observed, I become an anxious present.

It's gonna be.

We were talking about it earlier, the first time that Josh and I go to beer camp together.

It's gonna be really fun.

It's gonna be weird because I've just socializes.

Yeah.

Every.

A few times a day.

Every day someone's gonna be like, hey, is Josh here?

And I'M just gonna have to be.

Like, I don't know.

Which he knows, because we worked camps together before, and it is.

It is a theme.

Like, I have, like, these spurts of energy, and I'm like.

Like, I'm a performer, I think, at heart.

And I like.

I do stuff, and I'm very noticeable when I am present.

And then I'm immediately like, God, I don't want to be around any of these people.

Then I just hide, and no one knows where I am.

Big hider.

Yeah, big hider.

I'm great at hiding.

We play hide and seek all the time, but no one knows they're seeking.

That's the best part.

I'm a great seeker.

So behind the scenes, this is what I like.

The kind of, like, what the series is.

Holy logistics.

Looking behind the scenes at church.

Behind the scenes is like, we have outlines when we do podcasts, and I kind of put, like, a free space here for us to just kind of talk about our lives and what's been going on.

So, like, I just.

I want to give us a little bit of space.

We did mention, you know, some of the stuff that's been going on with me personally.

I've had a lot of time where, like, I just haven't been doing stuff.

I've been kind of just feeling down, and I'm filled out with different stuff to try and, like, ease my way back into life.

And I started trying to be productive today.

I was talking to TJ about this earlier, and starting to be productive has made me realize that I might have been depressed the last couple weeks because I'm, like, starting to do stuff, realizing, wow, nothing has been done because I haven't been doing stuff.

And, you know, you're not aware until you try and get back in the hang of things, and you're like, wow, I really have not been in the hang of things, so I don't know, man.

To me, that's a little bit of the struggle.

It's a little bit, like, behind.

Like, we already talked about, like, why the podcast has been missing some, but I don't want to, like, guarantee people that we're gonna have an episode every single week the next couple months.

We might miss a couple weeks here and there, especially, like, as TJ and I are, like, getting our work together.

And I'm still kind of going through stuff, but that's where I'm at.

And I am actually trying to figure out this candidacy thing, and I have to figure out what I need to get together and probably email someone that I'm going to be later again with getting my stuff together, because I would rather do it right than just try and get it together last minute, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Not in the same boat necessarily.

Promotion's hard.

It's not a role that I was prepared for.

It's not a role that I was trained for.

It's just a role that I kind of have had to do from time to time.

No, I prepared you.

Not true.

Yeah.

Also said.

I remember that.

That I would like to make $36 an hour in my interview.

That's still true.

I would still prefer to be paid 36.

Yeah, me too.

An hour.

Same.

But stepping into that role has been eye opening to who I am as a leader and trying to maintain that role while also planning a vacation for, like, an international group.

Barely international.

One guy's coming from Australia.

But trying to keep those two things balanced has been very difficult.

So we'll see what happens.

Yeah.

I also have come to the decision that I need a haircut.

Yeah.

If I want to be like Will, I have to look like Will.

True, man.

It doesn't.

Once you get it, once you become like Will, it doesn't take a lot of time to get a haircut.

It is.

Doesn't take long.

I find it interesting.

I don't know how much TJ's in this boat, but, like, one of the things I do find interesting, too, is I still don't make a lot of money, but now I make enough money that I shouldn't be struggling with anything.

Doesn't mean I am, but I'm not, you know, I mean, but it's like.

Like, that I feel like has made it more.

Made me more aware of because I'm not solely focused on the struggle of paying bills and doing everything.

Like, I'm more able to be focused on.

Yeah.

That's not the only thing I care about in life.

And then I feel like it's opening up to being more aware of other issues that I have that I need.

To address, like my hair.

I've been able to just ignore all that because I've had just one thing to focus on.

Yeah.

Now I. I'm also concerned about TJ's hair.

Yeah.

I'm not concerned at all about TJ's hair.

I love it.

Yeah.

I think that's.

That's good.

I mean, I think in terms of, like, Again, like, going back to sabbatical of.

Of this kind of discernment of what do I pay attention to?

What do I want to pay attention to?

What do I do with my finite time here on Earth?

And what do I get?

What directions am I pulled in or not?

And demands my time and expectations, all that swirling and then different seasons of your life, there some are.

Are others, you know, I'm not in a season where my life is busy, where I have to get kids to school and ballet and their homework and that kind of stuff.

And so I wasn't worried about, you know, focused on, like, the leaks in my house and the new roof that I need, or now I'm like, oh, I noticed that stuff.

But I think for me, one of the main things that, like, I came out of sabbatical thinking, reflecting on is I. I still feel called to Holy Trinity.

I still feel called to be a pastor.

I still like that, that vocation of pastoral ministry.

But I. I'm still pulled in a lot of directions, but I'm not seeing that as a problem that I need to solve, but more of a discernment of what I pay attention to and where I spend my energy and what matters.

So going back to Ecclesiastes, I think is important, but that, like, I am pulling a lot and.

And it's not like sometimes I felt at different seasons in my life, I feel like I need to solve that.

I need to relieve that.

I need to get rigged, get those checklists done, and maybe all these things will go away and I'll have an easier week next week.

But now I'm just, like, accepting I'm going to keep being p. In different directions because I'm a season of my life where my mom has dementia, my brother's helping with her, and I gotta help.

And so how do I spend time with my mom and her final years, but also my kids from their 20s.

I want to pay attention to them.

Cindy and I want to value our relationship, want to keep going.

And I.

My relationship with my church.

We want to keep going.

Like, how do we do that?

But where do I spend my time and energy in a healthy way with these different areas of life?

And so not seeing that as something I need a problem to be solved, but a discernment of where to do that was some.

A mystery to embrace, I guess, is kind of.

Kind of where I am.

That kind of gets to a bigger theme that I've been kind of.

I'm having a hard time putting words to this.

I. I mean, this is a compliment.

But the passing of my grandmother, like, I always reflect on people's lives and one of the things that's like, really made me think is like, man, I want to have a smaller vision for my life.

Not in the sense of like, oh, I want to set lower expectations for myself, but more in a, you know, when you're young, you always have that like, I'm going to save the world mentality.

And like, I don't want to become irrelevant completely or anything like that.

But I'm like, man, I think it would be okay for me to say, hey, I'm going to be someone who lives in Kentucky and loves his family and is just kind of doing life and that's fine.

Yeah, not specifically that.

I think it's too late.

But not specifically that.

But I'm thinking about it and I'm like, and it's weird because I don't want to cut anything out either.

That's what you made me think of.

And the funniest thing is if I'm to dreamcast my life and like, you know, X amount of years and just everything fall out exactly how I want, I wouldn't be like a megachurch pastor.

I feel like, you know, probably a small Lutheran church in Kentucky somewhere exists and I could probably still be like, I don't know, like a kitchen leader at Chipotle a couple days a week.

Because it turns out, as much as it pains me to say it, because I've left a couple times, I miss Chipotle violently when I'm not there.

Like, I actually just love cutting food and making people's those orders.

Like I have a fun time doing that.

Yeah.

Raised Pentecostal and I don't think serve.

Maybe like I legitimately don't think I could cut it out of my life completely.

Like I'm like, I, I kind of enjoy it, but I want it to be something that I'm doing because I enjoy it every now and then and not because this is the only thing that's getting me by in life and my whole livelihood.

And I also.

Small churches usually need their pastors to work.

Yeah, I could swing it.

I, I foresee a small or medium sized church that has a soup kitchen kitchen where you can donate and you can cut food and spend time in the kitchen and direct that and feeding people who, who are food insecure other ways that you could, you could do that.

So I think, and if corporate's listening, I'll be the best prep person every Saturday morning.

I'm going to be that Guy who works only one day a week that everybody's like, man, I wish they'd work more days.

Nope, I'm not going to do it.

And that's part of it too.

You talked about like, what am I taking on?

What am I letting go?

What I, I can't, I can't take on more because there's just too much.

There's only one wheel.

I can't.

So where do I focus my attention?

So thinking about where I focus my attention here at Holy Trinity, you know what I, you know, I, I love my people.

Yeah.

I don't want to spend time with mold or renovations of, of a building that needs extra work.

I want my property team to that because that does not give me energy.

I don't geek out on that.

Other people do, they have gifts with that.

I want to focus on people and visit people in the hospital and preside at altars and vision and dream for down the road and then also be a non anxious presence and help give direction.

Whatever happens with this midterm election and whatever's happening in our world, politics in the world and AI in the future and you know, I want to be a stable certain, not, not certainty in terms of theologically, but be, be a certainty in people's lives in a world of uncertainty.

And how do I do that if I'm not healthy?

I take on too much and I'm pulling too many different directions.

I'm not going to be will I can be.

So I gotta think through what that means.

So that, that was, that was helpful for, for sabbatical and then I'll share this story.

So we part of.

I did some surfing.

We had a friend's daughter stay with us and hang out with our kids and she did surf camp and she's from France and she ended up taking a surf camp down at Wrightsville beach.

And, and one of the instructors spoke French and he was hanging out and was one of her instructors.

And so Axel, halfway through the week I was out surfing, he looked at me, he's like, hey, I'm moving to Colorado.

I'm getting, I'm going to go get my doctorate in physics and you know, moving out that way.

And as someone who's been around a while, I think he's looking at me like as an older guy with maybe perhaps some wisdom.

What's some wisdom you can give me when I go, when I, when I, as I head off to grad school.

And I was like, well that's good man.

I'll think about that.

So the Next day I was like, you know, I think about it kind of could be cliche, it can kind of be like a Hallmark card.

It can be.

But I was like that phrase this too shall pass is sitting with me.

Not only am I rereading Lord of the Rings and I think of you shall not pass the Gandalf epic line.

But, but that phrase this too shall pass, I think is.

Is a good phrase to reflect on because when you're in the hard times, the rough times, it's going to pass.

It doesn't mean you're always get over your grief or things.

You get over all things all the time and be perfect.

But hard times will pass and then there will be better times.

But.

And even the better times, even the good times will pass too.

That'll move on, that won't always stay the same.

So when you're in the hard times, remember, it'll move on, you'll get through it.

The good times, don't take it for granted.

Be in the moment.

Know that even that's finite and that's going to pass.

So enjoy it while you're there.

So that whole like mantra of this too shall pass has sat with me along with like this version of the serenity prayer that sat with all, all summer.

You know, the God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference was a.

Was a prayer and a mantra along with this too shall pass what I'm being called to be responsible of.

Responsible of my relationships, responsible the community that I've been called to take care of, responsible of my friendships, the extracurricular stuff, the love of podcasts and geek stuff and you know, what am I called to be responsible for?

But then, you know, that whole God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't change.

A lot of things in this world I can't change.

But there but the courage to things that I to change the things I can because there are things I can change, make a difference.

And then the wisdom to know the difference was.

Was something that really sat with me at the tail end of my sabbatical I'm trying to hold on to as we enter into this new season.

Yeah, so we read a little bit from Ecclesiastes 4 to open.

Ecclesiastes 3 talks about how there's a season and a time for everything.

I love it.

I'm read part of it just because I'm a loser.

But three, four is a time to Weep and a time to life.

A time to mourn and a time to dance.

A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones.

You skip down it goes.

A time to love and a time to hate.

A time for war and a time for peace.

You know, I do.

I love Ecclesiastes and our bonus today.

We haven't done a bonus in a while.

I want to talk a little bit about the end of Ecclesiastes and some redactor criticism, and if we think it should be there not.

But for now, yeah, I do think.

I think it's just important to embrace.

And that's part of, like, you know, I call myself a Christian Taoist.

Like, part of Taoism is like, sadness is a good thing, man.

Like, everything that exists is meant to be there.

And appreciating it for what it is, rather than trying to change it into something else is, like, a big principle of that.

And it's not saying, try to be sad or try to be upset and, like, there's no such thing as good and evil.

It's not saying that.

It's more like, vinegar tastes bitter because vinegar's supposed to be bitter.

So don't be upset that vinegar tastes like vinegar.

Rather appreciate it for what it is.

And I think that's what it is.

I think that's something that really aggravates me with a lot of Christians.

And I'm sorry if you guys have been one of that and text me anything, I apologize.

But people who are like, oh, you should be happy because your grandmother is in heaven, and I'm like, cool.

Like, that's good and all.

I'm not 100% sure if I believe that or not, but I think probably.

But also, there's a time to mourn.

There is.

Sadness is a thing that exists, and I'm going to embrace it.

Like, hey, there's a time Scriptural.

It's biblical.

It's biblical.

Those who sow in tears will reap in joy.

Like, and I just, like, sometimes I'm like, yeah, I get it.

I don't understand why you're trying to force me to be happy about something that I'm sad about.

I'm okay with being sad.

Like, I'm actually not upset that I'm sad.

I'm just okay with being sad, if that makes sense.

Yeah, you have to be.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't really have a choice anyway, so why would I try to fight it?

That whole part where Jesus wept, he was just wrong.

He was a bad Christian.

How dare He Jesus wept.

How dare he.

Lame way to end the book.

No.

So talk about being pulled a lot of different directions.

Oh, can I Ecclesiastes things real fast.

Sorry.

The, that whole poem about like, the final word is peace.

I've preached at funerals with this all the time.

That, that person that we're memorializing or remembering experienced all those things.

But what is the final word?

Where is the period?

Peace.

And that's what we hope, that at the end of our lives, there's shalom.

That peace has the final word.

God has the final word when we take our final breath and we've lived the best, our life and the fullest, the ups and the downs and all the way in between.

The good news and the hope is that it ends with shalom.

Ends with peace.

Peace period.

Yeah.

Yeah, I like that.

So, but you mentioned being pulled in several different directions.

We have a ton of stuff that you and I do, right?

We do podcasts, we are writing a book.

We're about to go to theology beer camp.

I'm back for this.

And this is the holy logistics behind the scenes of church.

What's it like running your Matter Matters podcast, getting ready for theology beer camp and writing a book at the same time?

What, what is this like for you?

What's your process?

So you're not pulled so many directions, but you're still able to do all.

Yeah, I mean, those are the things that give me joy and keep going.

You know, he talks about like, I, I do like coming to the church office.

I do like my job.

I do like curating and leading worship each Sunday and, and this place being a sanctuary and a place of spiritual growth for people who, who want to follow Jesus by being a Christian who also happened to be Lutheran.

Like, I, I, I like that part of my job and responding to people in different neat pastoral needs, whether it's the joys or the heartbreak or deaths or weddings or.

But these other things, like writing a book, like reflecting on surfing, like going to theology beer camp, be your friends and hear speakers and help curate some of that on some of the stages and doing your matters is kind of extracurricular, but it's also a part of my life that gives me joy and the energy and the inspiration to keep doing what I'm doing here.

So if I'm going to keep, like, hopefully doing cutting edge, innovative and inspiring sermons, then I need to go hear those who are the best at it and the speakers and learn and keep learning, learning and growing as a person.

So I want to go to the Al Spear camp and sit at the feet of those people, but also help out with that.

Your Matter Matters is a podcast about faith and science.

We're passionate about kind of the both and of, of not being tone deaf to the scientific breakthroughs or rebelling against that, but to embrace it and how that awe and wonder that we get from discovery, scientific discovery, is also part of faith.

And so to talk to people who aren't in those realms inspires me.

And I hope I've learned a lot through that and grown a lot through that.

I want to pass that on.

So part of your Matter Matters is hoping, experience that and then, you know, part of the.

Part of writing the book.

I never dreamed of like, writing a book.

And it's not gonna be a long book.

It's not like something's gonna be on Barnes Noble bookshelf or whatever.

But, you know, this is something that I've been reflecting on.

I like to create and do.

And if a couple of my surfer friends and family members and grandchildren one day read and said, you know, my granddad was a server and a pastor, and this is how I blend the two together, and that's cool.

So it's, it's a part of who I am and it gives me energy to do the other parts too.

Like, it's, it's a part of what brings.

Animates my life and faith.

And so I hope that's contagious to others.

That's why I, I do that.

And, and yeah, discerning where you're going to spend your time that day on those things.

I haven't picked up writing my book since, like halfway through the sabbatical because I've been traveling.

I got back here and it's staring at me and I'm like, ah, I want to finish this thing.

When am I going to ever get back to this?

I'm like, if I get.

Maybe next week, maybe after beer camp, maybe after this.

So I don't, you know, it's staring at me.

I don't feel pressure.

It's not like a publisher's going done by next month or you're breaking your signing deal.

That's.

I'm going to text you that later today, though.

Okay?

That's right.

Just to motivate you.

Yeah, just to motivate me.

So.

So yeah, you know, that, that daily discernment of, of where I'm going, and then you have inter.

I'm.

I'm in a vocation of interruptions.

You know, I could get a call 30 minutes from now that someone passed away, I need to go visit.

And I was like, I plan to do.

Do this other thing.

Well, guess what?

I got to put that on hold because I got to respond to this.

So that's kind of.

Kind of where I am in.

In.

In terms of vocation in life.

Do you.

Yeah.

Let me.

Before we move too far on.

Do you think.

Yeah.

Maybe the.

Explain more.

Unpack that in terms of just activity.

Like in between there.

No sweet spot.

Mentioned 2,019, you rested more.

You did so much stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sweet.

Pot is definitely in the middle.

I would like my next battle in seven years.

You know, if I'm lucky to get one, I. I will definitely this past year I did.

Or the past one I did.

Writing silent retreat at the beginning, but because of the way this eclipse that we want to see as our family and traveling to Spain and all that, we just had to be at the end of August.

But next time I'm gonna have.

I'm a bookend at the beginning and the end in kind of a silent spiritual retreat on both sides so that I can have a chance to rest and reflect.

Thankfully, Cindy drove in Spain so I could journal and think through a lot of stuff, you know, so I did get that time.

But like, I. Yeah, there's a sweet spot.

Spot in there for sure.

Cool.

Yeah, that's good.

So you.

You mentioned Theology Beer Camp, how we're both going to be there.

We're preparing for that.

Your Madame Matters is going to get a panel.

We have two systematic ecology panels.

Your Matter Matters is your other podcast.

For those who don't know, Donna's out podcast network has another show that's going to be there.

I don't know how many people are aware Theology on the Rocks, you know, you got Leah Robinson, Christy Wales are going to be there, and they have their own panel as well.

So we have three different Amazon podcast shows that are going to be there, four different panels.

So if you guys like what we do.

Yeah, Leah's like a featured speaker.

Like our.

Our podcast is up there, but my face is not up there, but Leah's face as.

As one of the keynote speakers presenting is pretty co. And so, Christy, Theology rocks.

Also.

We have.

We have a panel that we're doing with Dystopian literature, which will be fun.

Yeah.

And.

And your man.

I'm hoping we want to.

I need to talk to Josh about this, but we're going to do a season two and reflecting on what that looks like and when we can record and when it's going to go out.

I think I did see a bump in the analytics of people downloading it over the summer, which our goal was.

We were hoping that congregation in small groups would listen and then talk in small groups, use it as a Sunday school curriculum, POD study for book study.

And it looks like that was happening.

I'm hoping that was happening because I saw a little bump over the summer that people might be using that as kind of a summertime read or discussion.

And so I'm hoping we can do that with season two.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I typically don't look at analytics just because, like, that's just not how I'm motivated.

But it is interesting sometimes when you just, like, you see stuff.

And every now and then I look because I'm curious.

So we're about to talk about systemic ecology for a little bit.

TJ's, she's gonna mention our series that we've been doing over there for our annual theme.

I mentioned earlier, like, the Kingdom Hearts stuff, and that's one that's, like, fun for me is like, every now and then we do stuff.

And on, like, any of our show that we're like, we do stuff that we think is gonna be the popular thing.

Like, everybody's gonna listen because we're talking about Iron man, and it's like, yeah, you got, like, a third of the listeners that you usually do.

Which, again, is why I don't look at analytics, because it can sometimes be disheartening.

And, like, iron.

I just create to create, you know?

But it's.

I did have to look at the Kingdom Arts stuff because I was like, wow, this is a little interesting because, you know, all the stuff got announced right after we started doing this, and now it's like, wow, those are, like, some of the most popular stuff we're doing.

I was literally just doing it because I needed some dopamine because I'm going through a lot.

And my friend Christian was willing to talk to me about a game that, in my mind, only me and him cared about, and it's just not the case anymore.

And it's hilarious, right?

The game that only you and he cared about, about the, like, 11th biggest video game franchise of all time.

Yeah, well, you know, like, in my mind, I'm like, you know, there's Star Wars.

No.

Kingdom Hearts.

Why are they doing a Kingdom Hearts thing?

Like.

Like, in my mind, like, that's what our listeners are thinking.

Like, why are they doing this?

Yeah.

That might be more.

That's not what they're thinking.

I'm doing that.

But it's not all the listeners.

I'm personally doing that.

Not everybody.

Me.

I.

Me.

I'm like, why.

Why a Kingdom Heart series?

Pete did, like, Chain of Memories, the.

Only one I've played.

So I was gonna say most people think two is the best one.

They're wrong, but that's what most of them.

So faces Behind Us over on Systematic Ecology, we've been doing.

I feel like this series has lasted the past 11 years.

I've done so many of them.

Genuinely.

You'd be on.

Starting to Question more than half, I think.

Yeah.

Starting to question.

Question if this is a series or if this is just the new show.

But gosh, we've done so many.

We've done so many Faces behind Jim Hawkins from Treasure Planet.

Face.

Find Luffy from One Piece, Unreleased and unrecorded.

Yeah.

Oh, Transformers.

Yeah.

Uncle Iroh wasn't on that one.

It was a good one.

Trying to think some.

Some of the other ones.

Will's been on a couple.

The Star wars ones you got.

You guys did a whole week of Star wars ones.

Mostly you, actually, because you and Christian know, like, the.

The real nerdy, like, Dark Revan stuff that I. I don't know any of that.

I love Star wars, but I don't know Dark Revan.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which I do believe is one of the books that Will did not get to during sabbatical.

Is Drew Caperson's rule too.

I.

That's right.

That's right.

Dungeon Crawler Carl Derailed.

Other reading lists that I plan to do.

You're right.

Right.

And we'll blame that one on Laura.

Also on Systematic Ecology.

That's right.

Yeah.

But the series is relevant to the series we're doing on Whole Church now.

Right?

Yeah.

Right.

We are kind of looking at the faces behind the church in a more direct way.

Faces behind us can get a little vague because I get tired of doing them.

So we start stretching the meaning of Behind Us.

Often the faces are actually in front of us, but I think that is reflective of what the church is.

I don't know if you asked a thousand people what makes the church the church, if many of them would say the pews.

Probably not.

Or the chairs, but.

Yeah.

But turns out there's a lot that goes into that or the organs and the people behind that.

Yeah.

I think that's one thing that's interesting.

I think usually if you ask people, they would probably say either their pastor or they might mention someone on their pastoral staff, or they might mention just.

They might just say Jesus.

I don't think people tend to think of, like, the faces behind the church as the guys who made your pew or helped with the organ or the budget committee, you know?

Yeah.

Piano tuning, organ tuning.

That kind of stuff that happens throughout the week.

Like, our worship and music director coordinates all.

All the tuning of the instruments.

I just show up on Sunday morning for a couple hours and play.

But she also puts in a lot of practice time and then meets with students and people and rehearsals so that things happen on Sunday.

The other aggravating thing that people don't know is just show up for church on Sunday.

You work one day a week.

That's just a joke that needs to stop.

I see what you're trying to be funny with, but it's just not funny.

But, like, there's so much that goes during the week to make Sunday and other ministries and things happen, Whether it's campus ministry on Wednesday nights and, you know, even our lunch.

Even the lunch and learn that I did on Sunday about my sabbatical.

I needed people to help me to get the pizza and to make the salad and put the stuff out because I was in church doing, like, the cind line.

They were done.

I didn't have time to come over and do that.

So they're getting it set up behind.

Behind the scenes so that people can come over and have lunch.

So there's.

There's not just the kitchen committee, but there's a lot of things to go over there in the week that I'm hope.

I would hope people realize we spend our time doing.

Which is kind of the cool thing to do in the face of.

Behind us on systematic ecology.

So if you guys like what we're doing here, I recommend checking that out.

One of the more recent ones, Kevin schaefer and I did an episode on Lionel Luther from small.

Not only how he was like the face behind Lex and what made Lex Luthor Lex luthor, But we talk about how Clark Kent, Superman, at least in the smallville world, would not be superman if it were not for Lionel luthor.

So a lot of the times, the faces behind you just aren't exactly who you think of.

You know, that's a more darker perspective.

But, like, even if I was to say, oh, the church is because of will Will is just such a charismatic person.

Whatever.

Even if that were true, which, you know, it's not, but I love Will.

Will.

We can pretend there are faces behind Will.

Will wouldn't be Will without whoever else.

So that's why we do series like this on whole church.

Why we're doing that series on systematic ecology.

So if you like this, we do want you guys to check that out.

We'll leave a link for the playlist on that series for systematic ecology in the show.

Another part of the.

Another reason for a sabbatical is so you don't get so codependent on each other that this church is fine.

Did fine without me for three months.

You know, it'll be fine with me when I'm, you know, it was here before Will got here.

It'll be fine.

Shine after me after I leave, whenever that is.

But also I can survive without the church being, you know, the central part of my identity or ego or attention or whatever I get from.

From the church.

So, like that separation and break from each other also helps our collective egos that's wrapped up with one another.

It is also faces behind us makes me really upset.

But I can't like, mandate every person alive write an autobiography.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, I've actually thought about writing a biography for a couple of my grandparents.

But then I'm like, to what end?

There's too many books I want to write.

That's my problem.

Yeah.

I just.

I wish.

Not enough time to write any of them.

I wish it were easier to know as much as we can know about some of these characters.

About everyone else, about the people I.

Care about, just real people.

Like, I don't have for sure.

I don't have 30 hours to sit down and talk to Willa about Will's life.

And if Will could get time, I'll make time.

I'll clear my schedule for 30 hours for will to tell me his entire life story and everyone involved.

You gotta write my biography, Joshua.

If we spend 30 hours sitting down talking about your life, I feel like I'd be obligated to.

The name of the book would be the book would be the kids.

I really sure am gonna miss that guy.

I sure am gonna miss that guy.

For real.

Pillar Rose.

I'm sure I'm gonna miss that guy.

The kid who struck out in T ball.

And then.

And they never talk about T ball.

The whole book title.

That's my.

That's my job.

That's where I think it is interest talking to someone.

And like, I found out one of my crew members has a psychology degree.

Wild.

The amount of times that people that I work with find out that I'm trying to go to seminary or that I've took taken classes in law school just always blows their mind.

Yeah.

The other day, my kitchen leader was like, well, I can't work Sundays because I go to church.

I looked at.

I was like, I'm ordained.

I forgot.

Forgot about that.

I'm ordained.

Yeah, I get it.

And I respect that.

And I'm going to let you not work on Sundays ever, however.

But I would also like that to.

Will, real quick before we do move on.

You've been on a couple of the episodes of Faces Behind Us on systematic ecology.

If you had to recommend one for the people listening that you've been on.

Boarding is weird to give you time to think about it.

Yeah.

I don't know.

What have I been on?

You have to remind me.

I was hoping you would remember.

I don't.

It's been a long sabbatical.

I don't know.

I've been fun.

I've been fun listening to these things, but I haven't.

Okay.

All right.

There's been 17 faces behind us episodes on the thing.

There's also been bonus episodes for supporters that I don't have on this list.

Well, let's say you were on the Office one, I believe.

I don't think I was, no.

Okay, let's see.

Edmund's impact on Aslan was.

I did that.

Friends behind the Bots.

Were you on the Transformers one?

I don't think so.

Ah, you were on this one.

A Dwarven bonus rising in the glittering caves.

Oh, yeah.

The one where we did with Tripp and Nick.

Yeah, I was with that Rizzal where we revealed not Mithil, but Rizzal.

The.

And that's the one with Trip was, like, spent.

Like, took lots of notes, lots of stuff, and I was like, you know, this is supposed to be 30, 45 minutes.

That's a good taste of what beer.

Camp is like, too.

We can't do it.

We can't do it.

But, yeah, we have.

We had fun with that token one.

It was good.

And I have lots of questions for Nick at beer camp with my reading of Tolkien.

He's gonna be very tired of my questions.

I doubt it.

That's not it.

It's not in his character.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nick loves questions.

Yeah, he does.

I'm actually planning on meeting Nick at a.

At a Bourbon and Barbecue Fest next year because I found out how close Owensboro was to Nashville.

And I'm like, why do I never invite Nick to hang out with my family when I go to Kentucky?

Now I'm going to.

It's gonna be great.

Yeah, it's gonna be great.

He's gonna be.

Why are all of these people so special?

Small, so you won't think small.

He'll think short.

He won't think small.

Yeah.

Why are you so short?

So what has it been like for you, Will, to return from sabbatical and step back into the role of running the church?

Good.

It's taken a little adjustment, but, you know, I. I've done this before, and, you know, it's one of those things where you're nervous because you feel like, are people just.

Just haven't done anything all summer.

They're just waiting for me to get back and then dump on me a big to do list.

You know, I'm like, oh, man, are the feelings mutual that we missed each other, you know, and those kind of things?

But I do think the feelings are mutual that, like, you know, I miss my people and the people miss me.

And, you know, let's get some work done.

And then it's been really nice to see, like, a lot of planning beforehand to keep things going in the summer.

The stuff that I usually do or.

Or don't do, that my other staff took.

Took the ball and ran with it, and they did great and had a fantastic summer, and they're great ministers.

I had all trust in the world, so I think some of them are glad that I'm back too, so they can give back some of the things that I normally do, which is.

Which is fine.

So.

So it's been.

It's been good.

I think after being back for a month now, I think that honeymoon period of being back and being, like, good, I hope you catch up.

I'm glad you're back.

It's now, like, all right, we got some work to do.

It's time to budget.

Oh, you know what?

This happened over the summer I was really irritated about.

Can you fix that?

Um, there.

There.

There's a high anxiety in our world and what's going on leading up to midterms that people are kind of freaking out about.

So we're.

We're having to think through how we do life together when everybody's, like, on edge.

So it.

It is.

It's an on edge time.

I'm on edge time in our world, and all my people feel that way and feel it, but I'm very thankful and grateful of.

Of.

Of a healthy church.

That has a good vision of who we are and our core values.

And that's be to going.

Going to kind of keep us moving forward.

We have an 80th anniversary coming up.

As a congregation, we've been holy trinity for 80 years and so that we.

We've been reflecting on the decades leading up to this and, and so that's going to be fun on Reformation Day.

Josh, we should come to this October 25th, in the afternoon, Oktoberfest.

There's going to be beer, there's going to be brats.

We're going to have a celebration and former ministers and people talking.

And it should be fun.

So.

So afternoon October 25th.

Hey, if you're in the neighborhood, in the Triangle, want to come, come, come hang.

So we got that to look forward to while.

While, you know, how do we end this year strong and then budget for next year in an age of inflation and political tension and anxiety, how do we keep being the church and all that?

But you know what?

There have been other decades where we felt the same stuff in the history of our world.

And there'll be more to come.

So again, not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to embrace and what we're gonna do next.

So it feels good, feel good, feedback.

Yeah.

I'm not gonna promise a link because I promised too many links.

Yeah.

But if you're watching on YouTube, you see the shirt that I'm wearing.

It's specifically America based from, you know, May Memorial Day sale.

Think we did on.

On our merch store on systematic ecology.

But we have a series over there called Primarily Political.

So if you want to hear, you know, political discussions that are more about policies, then those are the bad guys.

These are the good guys.

Go our team, whatever party, maybe.

I feel like we do a pretty decent job look.

Talking about a pop culture and how different policies are represented in different IPs.

I'm a single issue voter and it's names of landmarks.

So I've had a very interesting term.

Yeah, yeah, I will.

Is muted.

You.

Your.

Your.

Your issue is you feel like more things should be changed names or stayed the same.

It's hard.

It's difficult.

It's really hard.

Yeah.

Some things used to be named very.

Well and then some things aren't.

Some things aren't.

Some things couldn't be named better.

I like that.

Tj.

That's.

That's our next T shirt.

I wear a single issue landmarks.

If I were a single issue voter, my single issue would be how small can we possibly make the government without being anarchist.

They'll just be answering that question.

The issue.

Why is that?

That would be it.

Why is there a North and a South Dakota?

Why is there North.

That's.

Yeah, that's the seagull issue.

Why is there a West?

Get rid of Virginia.

Why is it not West?

Get rid of directionally named states.

Yeah, renamed states.

That's what you're going to run on for the new year.

Vote for tj.

He's going to rename all your states.

I just.

There's Virginia.

West Virginia.

It'll either all be Carolina or Virginia.

Other Virginia.

That's just needs a new name.

No, just.

Just Carolina.

Other Carolina.

No, better Carolina, less Carolina.

At the very least.

What needs to happen is Virginia needs to be East Virginia.

That's only fair.

No, no, because, listen, I'm sorry to our West Virginian listeners, but I stand with one of my grandfathers on this.

They deserve to not be real Virginia because West Virginia was founded by people who ruled, ran from the war because they were cowards.

And I, you know, I said, I think so.

I'll say yes.

But Will, if you had to put it into one or two sentences, what being a pastor means to you and how your other work of podcasting and writing has contributed to the local congregation, what would you say?

That's a big.

That's a big question.

Game on the line.

Two sentences.

What is it?

Couple sentences of what it means to be a minister.

You know, it's is ship burning people and presiding at altars.

You know, I mean, too much there, there's a lot with managing buildings and programs and calendars and, and promotion and making sure people know or reading the email what's going on here and there.

But it really is shepherd comforting people and presiding at altars.

And I saw a lot of different altars over the summer, different kinds of churches and congregations and basilicas and some just huge, you know, grandiose basilicas in Spain and France and their altar, so huge.

And then a tiny, tiny little altar that's about the size of a home.

And then went to a museum and saw an ALTAR that's from 400 A.D. i'm like, yeah, wow, okay, that's cool.

But, like, I still feel called to preside at altars.

God Christ calls us to an altar where he offers himself in bread and wine, and we, we share that supper, remember him, and then leave to.

To be his hands and feet in the world.

So I think that ebb and flow and rhythm and liturgical kind of rhythm of gathering around an altar, being Nourished and, and then being sent out.

I still feel called to that rhythm and curation of being a pastor in a community.

And I feel called to do that Holy Trinity.

And I got another good decade in me.

And so we'll keep going that way.

So people in altars.

People in altars, that's all it is.

Puppets are important, but I think altars is where the focus is, people.

That's it.

Yeah.

We used to have field leaders that our job was, at the end of the day, burritos and bowls, bowls and burritos.

Stop making it such a big thing.

Yeah.

So one, one thing we do like to do.

Every episode that you're aware of, we like to ask for practical action wheels, something that our listeners could stop and go do that help better engender Christian unity today.

What's one thing you think people could just stop and go do right now that'll help better engenders unity?

I think we just.

Next time you gather for worship, reflect on the altar that's there in your midst and the people who have gathered around that altar in the past, those now and then, who's going to gather around it in the future and know that you're just, you're, you're, you're one of the cloud of witnesses around that.

But, but reflect on the place of that altar.

Altar, what it stands for, and the people who've been.

Come before you, the people who are with you now around the altar, and those who will come, come after.

And I think that will see that you're part of a larger story, a larger community, a larger church, rather than just, wow, I can't believe someone sat in my pew today.

Or I can't believe that hymn was too slow.

Or I can't believe that Christian across the street posted that on social media.

Yeah.

Reflect on, on the altars and who's gathering around the altars with you.

If we all take in that moment of reflection, what changes in the world?

I think a larger vision than just me and who I am or what I want, my expectations.

You're part of a larger story, larger group, and you know, you're, you're around altar where other people are there with you.

It's not just you.

I think it's so important to remember that we are a communal species.

If you're not a part of that community, if you're not embracing that community.

Yes.

It's not going to feel right.

So, yeah, great words Will, as always, before we wrap up.

That's why they pay him.

The pastor Money.

Before we wrap up, I make the medium buck.

Medium buck, yeah.

Yep.

Before we wrap up, we, of course, like to do what we call our God moment.

Not sure if you're familiar with this, Will, but we take a moment to share where everyone has seen God recently, whether that be a blessing, a challenge, a mode of worship, whatever it may be, and always make Josh go first to give the rest of us enough time to think.

So you have a God moment for us this week, Josh?

Yeah, I'm going to do a weird one.

Life has remained chaotic, you know, highs, lows, whatever, where I find myself at.

And I'm always the kind of person who's always, always like, am I doing this right?

Am I thinking this through right?

Am I losing my way?

Have I not done anything too long?

Or am I doing stuff too soon?

Should I still be mourning?

Am I wrong for not mourning?

I just overthink things.

And now being a general manager of a store and everything else in my life, there's just a lot.

It's just constantly moving.

I recorded a podcast with Christian Ashley about Kingdom Hearts shocker to everybody.

And we made a joke on there that this little glass figure that I bought for fun, like, I literally only bought this for fun.

It's a little heartless.

We made a joke that, oh, that must be the heartless that Sora turned into during the first game when he sacrificed himself.

And, you know, not thinking about it, I just put it next to the small pile of poker chips I have on my office that represents something meaningful to me personally.

And ever since then, like, every time I come in my office, I look at it, I'm like, man, I accidentally set myself a reminder that I'm like, hey, if I am losing my way, my friends will find me.

It'll be okay.

It's just been kind of a moment of peace.

So this thing I just got for fun because I'm like, oh, I like this game turned into a reminder that if I am losing my weight, I'm right.

Of all the stuff that I'm overthinking and I'm right will find me.

TJ will be like, hey, Josh, cut it out.

I'll be okay.

Yeah, that's awesome.

That is awesome.

I have Funko Pop Godzilla on my desk.

So if there's any big revelatory moment there for me, I will let everyone know as soon as that happens.

Please, please do.

I'll let everyone know.

I need to know.

But for me, my God moment, it was a.

Is a weird one.

It's definitely A weird one the other day.

And I'm not gonna say any names because, like, I can't legally.

Pretty sure.

But I had an employee come up to me and say, hey, man, will you tell her to stop trying to convert me?

It makes me uncomfortable.

Which is a very difficult conversation to have.

Extremely difficult and yet important.

And very important.

Minister T.J. yeah, very important.

Because I'm not going to be like, well, why don't you want to be converted?

Because then my employee's uncomfortable.

That's not the kind of environment that I want to have.

But I really thought about it because it would have been kind of funny to just double down and be like, you should probably just convert.

It makes you uncomfortable.

It'd be easier.

But you know what?

Make it easier.

Just look at that person and go, you know what?

You're right.

Jesus's hands are large enough to hold your anxiety about this if you turn.

Yeah, but I did have to go like, hey, you can't try to convert people at work if it's making them uncomfortable.

Like, you can't do that.

Yeah, you gotta clock out first.

Yeah, if you clock out, I don't care.

Get out of uniform, stand on the other side of the line.

But that was a hard conversation to have, you know, to just maintain the environment in the store.

Not.

Not a Christian company.

Guys, we can't just do that here.

We can have the conversations, but boundaries are important.

We have to have the boundaries.

The separation of burrito and church and burritos is super important.

So that was difficult, but I did it.

And we'll see how that develops further.

Because of course she's not going to stop.

Why would she stop?

But we'll try.

So do you have a God moment for us this week?

Will I do, you know, mention about me doing a Lord of the Rings reread over sabatical.

And I'm still in the midst of it, doing a slow read, almost devotional read, journaling, getting a ribbon out, getting a pen and pencil.

Having a lot of fun with this reread of Lord of the Rings.

A lot of stuff didn't notice before or stuff that I really enjoying at this go around but.

And randomly my.

My daughter, you know, texted me and she's now out of the house again.

Got a job in the area.

She's local and she was like, hey, they're doing a retro night.

Cheap movie ticket night at the movies.

Lord of the Rings fellowship, the Ring.

Do you want to go tonight?

The extended edition.

Three, three and a half hours.

You want to do this.

And a little tear went down my my eyes.

And I was like, of course.

So when your daughter asks you to go see a Lord of the Rings movie, you go.

You go.

You go.

I would go.

So.

So yeah, it was fun.

And it's been a long time since she's seen the movie and or read the books and so there's some things she literally did not know was happening or got happen and so she was like gasping at some parts when I just know these things are going to happen and the part can't wait to see them.

She's gasping like she's surprised.

Surprised to see it.

And so yeah, it was fun.

Super, super fun.

That's awesome.

So if you like this episode, please consider sharing with a friend.

Share with an enemy, but please consider sharing with a friend or an enemy or your cousins.

If you didn't enjoy this episode, tell us what, why and consider changing your mind.

But barring that, I apologize.

Also, you can go to our website and purchase one of our T shirts to promote the show, help raise money for podcasting needs, promote or allow others to know the importance of our mission to educate you at the church.

And you know, it's just, it'd be really nice.

I would appreciate it a lot, personally.

I would too.

Yeah, I would too.

But if you need help deciding, I personally, personally love the the Trinity knot shirt that we have.

Josh wears it all the time.

I don't own it, but it is very cool.

I don't wear it, so check that one out.

There are so many shows on the Honesty Podcast network on the website in the show notes that you can go to to find more thoughtful Christian podcasts such as Theology on the Rocks.

My matter matters.

Let nothing move you.

My seminary life.

So many options, so many choices.

Check them out.

We like all of those people and they put out good shows.

You should check them out.

But I do hope you enjoyed it.

Coming up, we'll be talking with Josh Gilbert and Josh Patterson about the behind the scenes of making a Christian podcast.

That's right.

Three white gay guys named Josh.

Groundbreaking.

A trinity of Joshes.

The Josh I, as some people call them.

After that, that we're going to be talking with Jonathan Foster about the publishing process of Christian books, which he should have a lot to say.

He's written some truly phenomenal books, so look forward to that.

Finally, at the end of season one, Francis Chan is going to be on the show.

Maybe, maybe, probably, possibly as soon as someone puts in the footwork to invite Francis Chan to the show.

He will be on the show.

Thank you very much.

Much.