How RTT practitioner and former corporate leader Richard Stokes turned personal crisis into a mission to help others challenge limiting narratives and rediscover confidence.

In this deeply honest Voices of Leadership episode, Dave sits down with Richard Stokes, RTT Practitioner and former senior corporate leader, to explore what happens when a successful life begins to unravel, and how it can lead to a richer, more grounded kind of leadership.

Rich shares his candid story of high-pressure corporate success, burnout, and eventual rehab, and how that experience led him to retrain as a Rapid Transformational Therapy (RTT) practitioner. Together, he and Dave explore how uncovering and rewiring limiting beliefs can transform not only personal wellbeing but also leadership performance, confidence, and team culture.

This is a conversation about humility, honesty, and rediscovering your inner cheerleader, a reminder that impactful and connected leadership starts with a healthy mindset.

Key Talking Points:

• Richard’s corporate journey and the early mentors who ignited his passion for people development
• How unconscious beliefs and inner narratives quietly limit performance, even among senior and experienced leaders
• The moment of hitting rock bottom and the lessons from rehab that reshaped Richard’s approach to life and leadership
• Why humility and self-reflection are cornerstones of sustainable leadership
• Understanding RTT, what it is, how it works, and how it applies in non-therapeutic, business settings
• “Lie, cheat and steal”: reframing self-talk and reclaiming the confidence you were born with
• How reframing fear as energy can turn anxiety into purposeful action
• RTT’s role in building engagement, reducing presenteeism, and unblocking team potential
• The simple truth: before you can fully unleash positive impact on others, you have to quieten the inner critic and unlock yourself

Welcome to Unleash youh Impact Unlock Others, a podcast about inspiring leadership. We hope to bring you grounded wisdom, stories from real leaders and leave you feeling inspired. Let's dive in.

So welcome once more to Unleash youh Impact, Unlock Others. This is a Voices of Leadership episode and one I've been looking forward to for a very long time.

My guest today is a personal friend of mine, somebody I've known for many, many years. And today we're going to talk about a topic that is a little bit different.

So Rich Stokes is the person concerned, somebody I've known for 20 plus years. In fact, I've actually worked for him in the past. So we know each other inside and out.

But Rich is going to talk to us today about his new role as a therapist for RAP Transformational Therapy and how that can be brought into a non therapeutic environment to help develop leaders. And we'll get into what that means in a little while. Now, Rich has had an interesting journey and he will share a lot of that with you.

And it's liable to be quite honest and quite brutal and quite stark because that's the way he rocks. And I'm really looking forward to that too.

But Rich set a journey from senior corporate roles through to today, becoming very recently an accredited RTT practitioner. And he's going to offer some insight into how uncovering and rewiring limited beliefs can really unlock leadership potential and team performance.

So without any further ado, Rich, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Dave, and thanks for inviting me to take part in this.

No, I say I'm really looking forward to this because, and I mean our last sort of roles together in an employed environment when I worked for Bluefin as head of Professional Development and you had your senior corporate role there, obviously we've gone our own way since, but still work together quite a bit. Yes, and always will, I'm sure. So, yeah, I guess people are always saying to me these days, you know, how do we sort this out, how do we solve this?

And everyone's looking for a quick fix.

Now, we know there aren't always quick fixes, but what if there was a faster way to unlock leadership potential, to help people change the stories in their heads or holding them back? Now we might just, with rtt, have found the answer. So I really would like you to sort of today help us explain to the listeners what does RTT mean?

What is this therapy? How does it work in a non therapeutic environment and how you see that being applied to leadership development. But before we get into all of that.

Can we sort of dive back a bit?

I want to give the listeners a sense of who Rich is, where Rich came from and the sort of the principles and the values that underpin who you are today.

Sure. Thank you, Dave. Yes, well, as you said, thank you for that lovely introduction as well.

So over the last 30 years, I guess I've worked at the heart of human potential, as you said. I've been involved in leading learning and development strategies with you as well for some of the UK's most progressive organizations.

When I look back, when I look back at what we did together and you will know that as a leadership leader consultant, talent specialist, you know, we help individuals at all levels to unlock new ways of thinking, to overcome performance barriers and step into their full capabilities.

Absolutely.

And I stand by all of that and what learning and development does.

I've also seen firsthand, and I'll come on to the firsthand bit in a second, how deep rooted beliefs, stress, trauma and unhealthy coping mechanisms and self doubt can quietly limit even the brightest minds and how that impacts on teams and the performance of businesses.

I think you said to me earlier today, actually it's interesting how even some really senior, talented people still suffer with things like, you know, imposter syndrome, for example. You know, this happens to everybody, doesn't it? It's not, not just people, maybe from a certain group or type of.

Yeah. And actually that's a really good. What you've just said. There is a good segue because rapid transformational therapy isn't that old.

It's a combination of therapies and I don't want, I don't, I don't want to bamboozle your listeners. No, I will say that it's been practiced by a lady called Marissa Peer.

She was the founder, she's a British lady and she started working with leaders of industry, global leaders of industry, presidents.

Yeah.

People at very high level royalty, tennis pros, football teams, actors. And people who on the surface look like they've achieved everything.

Yeah.

And yet had doubts, limiting beliefs and so on. And that made them unwell.

Yeah.

And that made them unwell. And what she found, and I'll jump cut to the chase here, is she got tired of therapies that were.

I have to be careful what I'm saying here, Dave, that were protracted, that went on for months and months and years and years where people say I'm seeing my therapist, I'm seeing my therapist, you know, for my checkup. And I'm not saying, not saying there's anything wrong with that? But, you know, her view was that. Let's give you an analogy.

If you've got a toothache, Dave, what do you go and do?

Yeah. You don't want it to, like, last for months. Yeah.

What do you do?

You go and see the dentist.

You go and see the dentist and does the dentist sit you down in a chair and you talk about the toothache and you, you know, and I'm not, I'm not belittling talk therapy, so I'm just going to say that one more time.

But yeah, imagine, Dave, you go to the dentist, you've got this toothache in your whatever, molar, and the dentist sits there and you talk about it and it's quite nice to have a chat.

Yeah.

And in that chat, the pain might not feel as bad. And they say, we'll come back in a month, we'll have another chat and then another chat after a while. But that goes on and on.

Is the toothache sorted? Is the root cause sorted? No. And what Marissa Peer wanted to do was to cut to the chase, cut to the root cause. Where did that pain come from?

How did it arise? Where did it arise? Reframe it and then upload better software.

So it's a bit like rebooting a computer, defragmenting your hard drive and uploading new software. So that is where this kind of. That's where the notion of this came from. Does that make sense?

It does. So we'll get, we'll get into the mechanics of it later on. So your journey into people development type roles.

Yeah.

How did that start, you know, where did this passion that you, and, you know, you share the same passion as me about helping people, you know, try and find the best version of themselves that they can unlock their potential, you know, optimize their performance, all of those things. Where did that come from?

I guess it came from the fact that I found that when I. When I was growing up.

Yeah.

And when you're growing up, you have all sorts of people that become your mentors. Now that sounds a bit of a sort of professional.

No, it's true.

It could be your parents.

Yeah.

Your grandparents. It could be a tennis coach.

Yeah.

Could be a particular teacher at school. We always remember the best teacher, Remember their name.

Yeah.

And they weren't the softest teacher, they were the ones that got the best out of us. So that passion arose when I knew that those people had my best interests at heart because they helped me to become a better version of myself. Yeah.

And I Totally get that. Because you know, the story of my grandfather and what role he played in my life. And we have these people sometimes early in our life that are.

They are transformational, aren't they? They are. They are really important to us. Well, I guess not everybody has that. Maybe we were lucky to have those people. Not everyone does.

But certainly if you do have that, it can be really. Really.

Yeah. They're the people who. And I'm gonna come back to this. Who ignite our inner cheerleader.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And not just to say, oh, it's great, you can do what you want, but actually helping you become great for all the right reasons. Yeah.

They help shape our beliefs, they help shape our values, they help build our resilience when we're out there in a world that is very demanding, full of change today and all those things. And that resilience, you know, that's worth its weight in gold.

It is. Yeah. Well, especially in the modern world where, you know, resilience is big issue for a lot of people, isn't it?

Confidence is a big issue for a lot of people. So, yeah, you do need someone who's got your back, who can not always tell you what you want to hear, but what you need to hear.

Yeah.

Which is two different things.

Yeah, yeah.

Those types of people. So who was that person or people in, you know, what sort of people in your life were those types of people?

Yeah, there were people at school. So when I went. I went to boarding school, Dave and I. I'm not sure I would have been happy in any school I went to.

When I was at boarding school, there were particular teachers. My physics teacher was great. My drama teacher was, my chemistry teacher, my English teacher. I remember these teachers.

There was also people like my parents who had an unwavering belief in that if you put your mind to something, you could achieve anything almost. Sometimes I used to think they were being a bit far fetched, but they had that belief in me, you know, My mother still has that belief in me today.

Yeah. And I've seen that in you.

I mean, I know you've had your own challenges, like we all have, but there's one thing about you, is that you'll always try something new. You'll always push yourself to try and be better. You don't hold yourself back. And I think that's a good thing, you know? Okay.

You might not succeed in everything that you do. We don't always. But you always have a go and you learn from it and then you move on. I think that's an important characteristic, isn't it?

It is.

Okay, so you had these really important people. What sort of values do you think that you now hold really dear did you gain from that, having those people around you?

I think it's a bit of an old fashioned one, really. The work ethic.

Yeah, yeah.

And you know, I'm not saying you're going to have to work to a point where you are killing yourself. No, no, no, of course not. But I do believe to gain anything in life you have to work for it, study, research, engage.

Yeah, definitely. That's an interesting one from leadership. Obviously this is a leadership podcast. But yeah, you do need to put time aside to learn, don't you?

And I, and that's one thing that worries me a bit at the moment, is not enough people find the right time to put to learn.

That's 100, Dave. Not only do they are they not finding the right time to learn for what I call transactional things they have to do at work.

And those things are important. They are for a company to work, people need to know how to do, you know, how to be proficient in IT and Excel and AI and all this stuff.

So I call that the transactional stuff. But what's more disturbing these days is people not being able to find the time to think about the transformational stuff.

Yeah, the stuff that really matters.

Yes. Yeah.

So you went into the world of work, you went into financial services.

I did.

What was your first role in financial services?

Oh, God, I was a management trainee for the building society.

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I, I started off on the counter where people were paying money into their savings accounts, drawing money out, trained in mortgages, what I call basic financial services loans and so on. And I was on the road to become a branch manager of a small building society branch as a graduate management trainee. And then something happened.

Oh, go on, tell me.

Well, I, I got thrown a cur. I was asked if I wanted to do this secondment where I would be working with managers.

And when I look back, I was very young and I think about, you know, me going in as this whipper snapper, coaching and training managers. Because one of the things that happened was in my last year as a management trainee, our branch was reconfigured.

Okay.

And they got rid of the man, not got rid of the manager, but they got rid of the concept of the manager stays in his or her or their office and that's where they're based. And then there's a counter and that's it. And they had this, you know, they went for this. Now it's quite common, this open plan approach.

They wanted branches to be more engaged in marketing and merchandising. Yeah. Cross selling other products and services. They like what I had done at this pilot branch where it was reconfigured.

So they asked me if I would like to be involved in a project to take managers through what was called branch reconfiguration.

Okay. Yeah. Interesting.

So I did that for a year.

Yeah.

Clearly they thought I did a good job. I think I did a good job looking back. And then I applied for a job as what was called an area insurance business development.

Like consultants, looking after the financial advisors, coaching them, training them.

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

And then it moved on from there.

Moved on from there. We all have these kind of personal moments that spark the change.

So you've explained that first one where it came out of the blue, bit of a curveball. What were the.

In your leadership career in financial services, what were some of the other sort of personal moments that really sparked change for you?

Yeah, guess for me. And this was, I suppose this came midway through my corporate career because obviously I've left corporate life now to set up my own business.

But it was getting managers, leaders, I guess, all people to move from what I call the fixed mindset to a growth mindset.

Yes.

Now that's a very. You and I know that's quite a term that a lot of trainers and consultants use.

Yeah.

But it's very true.

And that, you know, when people are in this state of stuckness, how do we move them into that growth mindset where they can embrace change more, see the positives of things more and aspire more rather than just turn up and do their jobs. How do we create an environment where people are more engaged?

Yeah.

And I think if we are in the business like you and I are, of helping people drive transformational change, one of the biggest, if not the biggest blocker to that is not a lack of skills, lack of talent, lack of knowledge, lack of experience necessarily. It's the mental blocks that actually cause the biggest issues, aren't they? Yeah. So yeah, I think you're right. Those sort of things.

How do we help people get past those blockers? So you said that you obviously learned a number of things through those corporate roles.

What were your sort of big lessons in leadership that you, looking back now in your corporate life that you learned about being a good leader?

Oh, gosh, there were so many. And I think some of the biggest ones were having. Now I Have to be careful how I say this. Humility.

Yeah.

And often people mix humility up with humiliation and they're two very different things.

Absolutely.

And humility isn't putting yourself down. Humility is doing almost like a balance sheet each day of what you've done well and what could have been done differently or better.

And giving yourself that reflective time and that humility is very important. And at the same time, using humility to pull to strengths within your team.

A lot of people who struggle sometimes with certain mental health challenges, it's because there's a high ego and a very low self esteem and that drives, that can drive behaviors where leaders take credit, for example, for other people's success and so on, or they're not prepared to listen to other people's ideas because it has to be their ideas. So that sense of humility to me is very important in leadership. That was a biggie for me.

Totally agree.

I mean people who've read books like Good to Great by Jim Collins where he talks about the very, very best leaders are the ones that have got, got a sense of humility about them.

But for me, what humility means not just am I doing the right thing for me, am I doing the right thing for everybody else that I want to do a, create a positive ripple for? And that sometimes means doing hard stuff that you don't want to do, but it's the right thing to do.

Absolutely.

And the other thing is, do I as a leader or a manager or a team leader, whatever the role is, where I've got a load of troops behind me, do I believe in where we're going? Do I believe in the proposition? And that's a tough one.

It can be, can be very tough. So again, looking back on your corporate life, what were the real tough challenges that you came up against? Those real roadblocks?

We thought, wow, this is tough. How am I going to deal with this? How am I going to get past this? There must have been those moments.

It's back to this belief and this self belief. I think for me personally it's very easy to invoke whilst humility is a good thing.

Yeah.

It's very easy to put the inner critic in charge.

Oh, absolutely.

And give the inner critic a throne.

Yeah.

A megaphone and sack all the cheerleaders.

Yeah.

And actually what happens then is that's when self esteem starts to go really down. And it happens to most successful people.

It does, yeah.

You know, I was earning way over six figure salary and it happened to me.

Yeah.

And the Price I paid. Well, say price I paid. I didn't see it creeping up.

Oh, okay.

Yeah. I never saw this creeping up.

Right.

Yeah. And as you said, it's an important point you make there sometimes. These are not sort of great big light bulb moments to happen. Bang.

And then you suddenly realize what's happened. This can creep up on people over a long period of time. So you don't know it's there.

And all of a sudden it's there and it's shouting loud in your face.

As you get older, weight can creep on, Dave. You know, tell me about it. And then you look down, you go, where did that tire come from? I didn't ask Dunlop to deliver this.

Yeah. So you hit that real. I guess. Yeah. Rock bottom. Yeah.

You suddenly realize that maybe for all my ability, my experience, my talents, and you have got lots of those things, but I'd reached a point in this stuff had crept up on me. I hadn't been dealing with it. And all of a sudden I'm facing myself in a position of rock bottom.

Yeah.

Yeah. What was that like?

It was. It was quite surreal. When I finally hit rock bottom, the journey there was not good.

And in saying that, it was quite a rapid journey, I'm pleased to say.

Right.

And I didn't lose everything. And sometimes when people think of people who struggle with alcohol, they imagine the person on a park bench with a little paper bag and all that.

Yeah.

Well, let me tell you, Dave, when I went into rehab, there were. There were people in who hit, who were. Have been homeless.

Yeah.

But there were equal number of people who had hit it in plain sight.

Yeah.

Highly successful, from Harley street doctors to priests to musicians to you. You name it, you know, you name it. Being when you hit that rock bottom, you. First thing you do is accept that something is wrong.

Okay.

Clearly it is.

Yeah.

Because anybody who's reaching for the vodka bottle at 6 in the morning.

Yeah.

That's not healthy.

Not really.

That's not healthy.

No.

So when you kind of. They call it surrender. When you actually surrender that and go, I need help, and I will do anything that you ask.

And you are fortunate enough to get a place in a rehab center. And I went for four weeks. I actually then enjoyed it. It was quite perverse. Yeah. I enjoyed it because I.

For the first time in a long time, I just did what I was told.

Okay.

That was Number one.

Yeah.

I had utmost trust because everything else, I was steering this ship up till then all my life, and I just hit an iceberg.

Yeah.

Sinking.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I trust everyone. But why I liked it so much was the quality of therapy I received while I was in there.

Okay. Yeah.

It was absolutely amazing. And I thought these people are really smart. This is transformational stuff.

Now I know they're dealing with alcoholics, addicts and God knows what, all sorts of getting people to change and shift the narrative is, is, is not easy.

I'm guessing you made a point to me before we started recording this podcast that yeah, a lot of people who come up against these roadblocks. It might be alcohol, it could be drugs, it could be.

There's a lot of addictions, but some addictions are actually, on the face of it, quite minor addictions, but can still cause these massive problems.

Oh, equally, yeah, absolutely. I mean, anything to related to food issues.

Yeah.

Whether it's anorexia, bulimia, whether it's. Whether it's this desire to have the perfect body. And not just women, men as well.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, I was talking to somebody I know who is a manager of a gym near us and he said, I want to get more people into the gym that wouldn't normally go to a gym. He said, are they lazy?

And I said no, I would imagine the bottom line is they're too embarrassed to show themselves because they don't believe they're as good as the gym bunnies that are in there doing the weights and. Yeah, and that's not to knock those people. It's because people compare themselves, Dave.

I think that's one of the big issues rich in modern life is it's too easy for us to compare ourselves to all sorts of people when actually is that healthy. No, no.

If our self esteem is wrapped up in how we compare ourselves to other people, that isn't necessarily going to end in a great place, is it really?

No, not at all. And we are surrounded now by social media. Has its positives.

It does. Yeah.

But like a supermarket full of food, too much of the bad stuff isn't good for you.

Yeah.

So you fill your trolley up with rubbish and you are constantly, for example, looking at imagery that is the perfect look, the perfect person that manicured, etc. Etc. Then it's going to have an impact on your self esteem.

It is, yeah. So I'm interested in. You also hit rock bottom. You were in rehab for these four weeks and you said your own words.

I actually Found it quite, you know, quite, quite good to just step back.

When you look back to all the years that led up to that, did you spend enough time, rather than just being busy and stuff happening around you, taking enough time to step back from all that, reflect, work out what's going on for you, because you're almost forced to when you get to the rehab. Yeah. But had you spent enough time doing that in previous years, or is that one of the things maybe that you could have done more of and better?

That's a really good question, and the answer is very simple. I didn't.

You didn't do it. Okay.

I kept going because I thought that if I keep running faster and faster, I'll keep this level up, I'll keep my success going, I'll have all of this. And if I have all of these things ticked off.

Yeah.

The home, the cars, the this, you know, all I'll do is just keep going faster and faster. I didn't actually work on myself at all.

Right, okay. And I think that's very common. Very, very common. There's a lot of people out there, you know, stuff's happening to them all the time.

They're chasing the next thing, they're doing the next thing, they. It's almost like busyness has become a badge of honor, isn't it, in the modern world? But actually, human beings don't learn that way.

Human beings need to step back, take a bit of time to reflect, work out what the hell's going on for them. Like you said, maybe work out emotionally what's going on for them, rethink that and then try something different. You weren't doing that, you were.

No, no.

So you're, you know, I'm sort of going a bit into our O R T T here. Yeah, but people know this.

Yeah.

I was living in, in the conscious and I wasn't giving any time over to my subconscious.

Right, okay.

Because the subconscious is on record from before you're born.

Yes.

So it's got lots of great data and information, but it's stuff that isn't conscious.

Yeah.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does make sense.

Yeah.

So if you're looking at, for example, being a leader in a business, when you give yourself time out and people think, what, just sit around in a Zen like state? No, not at all.

But just give yourself time out to stop thinking about trans stuff going on at work or even strategy in that, and just to just let your mind wander a little bit. So often solutions suddenly come up, ideas come up. Yeah. Problems get solved. Have you ever lost something at home, keys or something?

All the time, Rich.

So you know you and I know you think you're trying to think and you're in that conscious state the moment you stop thinking about it and go and do something else.

Yeah.

The keys appear.

Do you know what I mean? I've worked for, with Rich, the co owner of Zentano for nearly 10 years now.

And I think the one thing that I would give him credit for, us two working closely together is I think he is very, very good naturally at taking a step back, being reflective. And I think I've become more like that in the time that I've worked with him.

Because like you, I'm not saying I never did it, but I certainly didn't give it enough time. And in the last 10 years I definitely have and it's been hugely beneficial.

Yeah. But I will say, Dave, and we work together, we worked in very fast paced corporate and retail financial planning together.

And I'm not knocking those companies, but there was a culture then of work, work, pedal, pedal, pedal. There was no time for that reflection. And yet it is in that subconscious reflection that transformation can happen.

I'm not sure though you say that, I agree with you. That was what the culture was like. And you said there was no time for reflection. But I actually think if I'd have wanted that time, there was time.

I just have to work out what bit I do differently.

Let me rephrase that. I made no time.

No. And I don't think I made no time.

And I take ownership for that. Of course I do. Yeah.

Okay, so you've got to your retreat, your therapy and you're thinking, right, okay, I've now got this time to step back, think, reflect, work out how I've hit rock bottom. What happened next?

Well, there were some practical things. I'm a paid up member of aa and I don't mean like the rac.

No, I know what you mean.

Alcohol, synonymous.

Yeah.

So what? What? Yeah, I mean, I go to AA because part of the reason I go to aa, it does what we've just talked about.

You have time to reflect, to share, to listen, actively, empathically listen.

Yeah.

Not listen, to respond, listen, to understand. Yeah, that's, that's really good. Good for me. If I was to sum up what I took away from that and I still stand by this today.

It, I'm not always good at practicing it because I'm a hardwired 61 year old person, years and years of hard wiring, but it's a principle that I picked up from book. Marissa Peer's book. So I'll give her the credit for this.

And she said you need to lie, cheat and steal, which is quite a profound, radical thing to say.

Yeah.

So let me contextualize that. You have to lie, cheat, and steal.

And what she said was, you have to lie to your brain because the lies you're telling at the moment, you can tell it a better lie than that.

That. Right. Okay.

You cheat fear then, and you steal back the confidence you were born with.

Okay. Okay. Yeah.

So can I expand a little?

Yeah, please do. Yeah.

So, you know, we tell ourselves lies every day. This commute is killing me. It's not killing you. Okay. This job is driving me mad. My family's driving me crazy. Yeah. This supermarket's a nightmare.

You know, when we use words like that.

Yeah. These narratives are really unhealthy, aren't they?

They are. And people might be thinking, well, we just use them. It's just. Just talk. Well, the brain's very interesting. The brain doesn't care what you say.

It'll take it on board and say, well, I need to get you out of there.

Yeah.

That's where stress comes.

Well, the thing is, and most people don't realize this at a deep enough level, but the brain is wired to spot danger, isn't it?

Yes.

Yeah. Now, most people probably know that intuitively, if not. If not, you know, intellectually. But actually, it's doing that all the time.

It's scanning all the time. Which is.

Which is why if you ask somebody how they do it, that often, always go to the negative of how they're doing, not the positive of how they're doing.

Correct.

Yeah. Because that's what the brain is doing.

Yeah. So if we take that. Let's develop that a little. Your mind, like you just said, your mind responds to two things.

The pictures you make in your head and the words you say to yourself.

Yeah.

And if. If we are catastrophizing, which we're good at.

Oh, yeah, Very good. Human beings, very good at that.

Well, think about the news, which is now 247 coming through. Facebook, coming through. Any media.

Yeah.

Is it good news or bad news, Dave?

Well, there is a balance out there. But most people are focusing on the bad stuff, aren't they?

They are, because that's the stuff. Absolutely. They focus on. So your mind responds to these two things. The pictures that you make in your head and the words you say to yourself.

And then what happens is that every thought you think and Every word you say starts to create a blueprint. And that blueprint can cause both a physical reaction and an emotional response.

Yeah.

People might say, is that a load of woo woo? If I was to ask anyone, Ask your listeners. Now ask. I want you to think of a lemon and that lemon is unpeeled.

And now that lemon's being squeezed into your mouth, your mouth will salivate.

Yeah, yeah.

Or if you were to think of an embarrassing moment recently, you would blush even though you're not in that embarrassing moment. So that's what we mean by the physical reaction.

Yeah.

And this blueprint is quite an interesting one because we're not. We're not born with these negative thoughts about ourselves.

No, we're not.

Let me give you an example. When I say lie, cheat, steal, steal back the confidence you were born with. Yeah. Children, most children, I say all children are born confident.

They are born feeling enough. When I say confident, confident that they'll be loved.

Yeah.

Because look at me, I'm here.

I've been born.

You've got daughters.

Look how cute I am.

Look how cute I am. They are born enough. They are highly expressive. They're great presenters.

Children, particularly, when they get their voice and they start moving their hands around. They come back from school and their eyes are lit up and they are expressive. Yeah. So they're born great presenters. They're born confident.

They're born enough. Yeah, yeah. They're not usually anxious at that point, apart from when they're hungry or there's something nasty in their pants or they're in pain.

Yeah. Which is absolutely.

Then we go. We move on. A year or two, if that, and they start to learn to walk. Now, when a little toddler, you would know this with your two daughters.

Yeah.

When they, when they, when they get up and start walking, they don't just go, oh, here I go. I'm walking, walking. No, that they.

They climb onto the side of a sofa or a chair or they're holding your hands with their fingers and they start to, you know, maneuver themselves.

Yeah.

And more often than not, they might fall over.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fall onto their bottom.

Yeah, yeah.

Hopefully not hurt themselves.

No.

At any point do they go, do you know what? I've fallen over. Sod this. I'm gonna go back to the push chair.

No, no, they don't do. They don't know.

So they're born. We're all born with this. What I'm trying to say here is we're all born with this natural cheerleader.

Yeah.

Yeah. Now, the parents Usually are cheering them on as well.

Hopefully.

Hopefully.

Yeah.

Maybe not all, but, you know, they don't go, I'm sending them back. I want, I want another one. I want one that can walk. I don't want that one. And it's the same when they start to learn to feed themselves.

The food's going up the nose, up their ears. I mean, I haven't got children, I've got grandchildren. Experienced this firsthand. The food's going in the hair.

Oh, everywhere.

Yeah. They're picking stuff out the nappy. It's gross. But at no point does the child say, no, no, you know what, I don't want to do this anymore.

You're going to have to feed me. They carry on. And in those early formative years, it's incredible, that growth mindset.

It is. Yeah. Yeah. As you said at that point, we haven't encoded our brain with all these negative narratives, negative stories. No.

The good news is, though, we are born with it. So when I say lie, cheat and steal.

Yeah.

Tell yourself a better lie because the one you're telling it is a really bad lie. So tell it a different story, give it a different narrative. Cheat, fear, and reclaim the confidence that you were born with.

So this is the principles that underpin RTT 100%. So in very accessible terms, as I don't want to get this to turn into a sort of a theoretical therapeutic podcast.

But what, what is rtt and why would a leader potentially want to use it to help themselves become a better version of the leader they currently are?

Okay, so rtt, it stands for Rapid Transformational Therapy.

Yeah.

Developed by the great Marissa Peer, who wrote, by the way, I Am Enough and Tell Yourself about a Lie. I can recommend those books. Great books. Yeah. You don't have to go and see an RTT therapist to get some of this stuff. It's fantastic.

What it does is it looks to very quickly uncover. It uncovers and rewires those limiting beliefs that are formed.

Okay. Yeah.

That hinder leadership potential. And it does this by helping you access the subconscious mind through certain techniques.

Yeah.

Now, when you're working with businesses, you don't have a load of RTT therapists coming in, doing one on one. No, it's done through group workshops. So. So one of the things we talk about is how do you relax your mind, almost hypnotize yourself?

And people like go, oh, that's a bit weird, that's a bit strange. And it isn't because you do it every day. You do it when you daydream okay.

Yeah, yeah.

You do it just before you go into sleep, when the mind's relaxing. And a lot of people do it when they're driving. Have you ever driven somewhere, Dave, and.

You thought all the time, you know what you're going to say. Yeah, how do I get here?

Yeah. And you've done it safe.

Yeah.

Competently. And you've managed to think of other things.

And you've been driving, thinking, oh, I might try this, I might try that, or why don't we do this at Santana? Who knows? But you can do it while you're driving. That's the state of mind you get into, where you can access the subconscious.

And we do that very quickly.

Okay.

What we do in terms of.

With groups of employees or leaders is to then deal with some of the common issues such as imposter syndrome, anxiety, fear of change, whatever they can. They can shout out a number of things like you would do in any workshop.

Yeah.

And what we do is I ask them not to talk to me, but I would say, right, let's go back and. Let's go back and take you right back to when you first felt that. And at first, some of them think you can, you know, will I be able to do it?

Won't I be able to do it?

And it is shockingly surprising how many people go back and go, I went back to when I was at school when I was six, or when I was 22 playing rugby or my first job or my first date or.

Yeah.

When someone said this to me.

Yeah, yeah.

And you go back to that, and then you take them back to a few other instances in their life or career when something bad has happened, maybe.

Yeah, yeah.

That has reinforced what I call this inner critic.

Inner critic, yeah, yeah.

And then we use a series of tools with them. We get them to close their eyes as they're doing it, to relax.

Yeah.

We don't get them to go sit in the lotus position.

No.

They just laugh. If we did that, we just get them to relax. One or two might be a bit. What's all this? That's up to them.

But what happens is we get them to reframe that.

Do you what's interesting though, Rich, I think, yes, you've probably experienced this. I certainly still do. Now people will say, oh, that's soft and fluffy nonsense. Or is that woo woo nonsense?

But actually, since COVID particularly the rise of stuff like mindfulness and breathing techniques, more and more people are now realizing that this stuff actually is quite helpful and it's quite Useful. And it's not woo woo. It's actually stuff that ancient, the ancient wisdom knew this a long time ago.

Before we got into the medicine that we're in now. And I'm not knocking that, by the way. I'm not knocking what doctors do prescribe. And I'm saying that's absolutely great.

Yeah.

But what you've just said there is so true. This was around hundreds, thousands of years ago.

Yeah.

This idea of meditating to.

It's about grinding yourself, grounding yourself.

Yeah. When people and I have had people sort of say to me, yeah, but, you know, we haven't got time to do this and so on and so forth.

What, you know, what benefit would it give me as a business?

So, Rich, I'm really interested. So when you work with people, whether it's in teams or one to one in businesses dealing with these very common issues. Yeah.

So some of the most common fears, and I think Rich and I have done a previous podcast on this, but things that people commonly have a fear about, am I good enough? What if I fail? How do I. Yeah. Feeling, controlling the situation. All these things are very, very common fears.

Yeah.

I guess you're dealing with some of this stuff, aren't you?

We're dealing with all of it.

So what we do, and I think this is quite clever, even though it's quite clever because it's so simple and a lot of therapists will hate it because you're. It's like you're giving it away. But that's what I want. I don't want clients to come back to me.

I want them to be, well, yes, I want to be the dentist who fix your tooth and, yeah, goodbye, Dave, you're fine.

So what we do before we get them to relax and so on and say, right, you've got this fear of whatever imposter syndrome, or you believe you can't sell or you can't present in front of your team, you know, confident, whatever it is, we get them all up. Yeah.

And you can do that like you do in any workshop, you know, a bit of spray mount, loads of cards up on a wall and then we go, right, so I want you to now tell me what life without the problem will look like.

Yeah.

And at first you get. People go, I feel happier. Well, what, what does that mean? Yeah, tell me from the moment you wake up, how are you going to be?

Yeah.

And one of the things I do is not just, how are you going to be at work, how are you going to be at home?

Yeah.

Because people want a happy mum, a happy dad. Dad, a happy son, a happy father. You know, it impacts the whole family.

Well, it does. No, absolutely it does.

You know, when I. When I was in recovery, as I call it, I'm still in recovery. I guess I forget sometimes that my.

My husband is recovering as well because of what he went through.

That's a really good point. Your husband has supported you on your journey, but that's affecting him and. Oh, yeah, yeah.

And he hasn't got aa. No, I have.

You have?

Yeah. Anyway, yeah, I digress a bit. But what we do is we dealt with what the negative side of those feelings are.

And people, once they open up, they open up. You only need a few to start. You know this. But what we do is we do life without the problem. What does life without the problem look like?

What does life without bad anxiety look like? Yeah, what does life without imposter syndrome? Oh, well, when I go and see a client, I'll be smiling, I'll be this.

I'll feel good, you know, and if I don't get the deal, it's not going to.

Not.

Right, right. And we get all of that narrative together.

Do they struggle to articulate that sometimes?

No, because we. What we do is. This is not talk therapy in the sense where we just go quiet, let them just talk, we guide them. So, yeah, what this is.

If you said to me, well, I want. When I see a client, I want to feel more energized, I'll say, all right, Dave, repeat after me. I want to feel more energized.

And you'll say, I want to feel more energized because.

Yeah.

Well, because then I will. What will be the impact of that? Yeah, so it's very guided. There's a lot of empathic and active listening going on by the person leading the group.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's no different to coaching, really. No, not at all.

Not at all. This is very interlinked. Yeah, it's very interlinked as part of leadership development.

Yeah.

What you do is you get all what I call positive truths from them.

Okay.

So it's not you going, oh, this is what it'll be like.

No, no, no.

You're going to be more engaged, you're going to be happier. It's going to resonate with our vibe values, all of which are important.

What you're doing is getting their words, their positive words, and I call those positive truths. They have to be truthful from them and they have to be positive.

Yeah.

I don't say they have to be positive. I say, what will life without the problem look like?

That'd be realistic, I'm guessing.

And they have to be realistic. Yeah, yeah. It's like, you know, if they're a middle manager. Well, I'll be CEO next year. Okay.

You may not be.

You may not be. But, you know, it's them describing in detail their working day, the drive back home. What will you do when you see your kids or your partner?

How are you gonna be? Yeah, it's not. Oh, I'm floating down the river like a swan or a lotus flower opening. You know, that's a load of.

Well, I won't say what Marissa says, but we want very specifics from them. And then what we do with RTT is we turn that into a recording and it's no more than 12 minutes, and we send it to them with the regression as well.

Okay, I'm oversimplifying this.

Right.

But essentially, that's what it is.

Okay.

And they listen to it for 21 days.

Okay.

As opposed to 90 days, which only takes to change because the mind learns through repetition.

Right.

So they send the recording, it's sent, you can WhatsApp it to them, MP3 it, whatever.

Yeah.

And it's no different to what I do with clients. One to one, you can do with groups of people, and we've done it with groups of people. And some people listen to it and some people don't.

And those that listen to it, they've noticed fundamental changes.

Interesting. Interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Fundamental changes, though, in performance.

Right.

Well, I have to say caveat. One of two things will happen.

Yeah.

Yes. They might change the narrative and view things differently and show more humility and gratitude.

Yeah.

For what they have. But it might be. Has happened to me very recently. Is actually. This isn't for me anymore.

Yeah.

I'm not following my heart's desire.

Yeah.

So I need to change my job.

Yeah.

Yeah. These are big. I know these are big decisions.

But when we are telling our brain we hate something, but we still have to do it, it's like tectonic plates going together and they keep rubbing against each other till there's an earthquake. And that can manifest itself in some physical illness, a breakdown, heart problems. You know, this all stuff comes from that.

I do wonder how many people. I mean, obviously, again, this is a leadership podcast.

I do wonder how many people out there in leadership roles, whether they're senior leaders, exec level, or someone else somewhere further down inside the organization. How many of them actually get out of bed every morning, Banks rang, thinking, I love being a leader. I really enjoy this.

Or are they just stuck in it because it pays a good salary or.

Yeah. I mean, I don't wake up singing ode to joy some mornings. All right. Okay, Dave.

I do get into what I call a lovely growth mindset within an hour, though. I'm still somebody, I'll be honest with you, who wakes up feeling anxious. But I've learned through RTT on myself to reframe that as an energizer.

Yeah.

So what I do, the thing I need to do very quickly, this works for me, doesn't work for everyone else, is I need to do a couple of readings from my AA book and get out and exercise. I don't care if it's raining, I don't care if it's snowing. I need to get out, walk, run, whatever. And that works for me.

I think that reframing bit is reflecting really interesting and important because Rich talked on the podcast recently, and when we had a conversation about courage in leadership.

Yes.

And he was talking about the. The feelings of fear and excitement are. Are different, but very, very similar. They are feelings.

Yes, you're absolutely right.

So actually, if you can reframe anxiety or fear as excitement or opportunity, that is a healthy way to look at whatever it is you're dealing with when.

When we're working one on one with clients. And just to pick up on that point, we talk about, when did anxiety first come into your life? What role, function, and purpose did it serve?

Because it has a role.

It does have a role.

Yeah, it does have a function.

It does.

And it has a purpose. And then when people can't sort of say, well, I can't just get rid of it, we say, well, let's give it another function.

Yeah.

And we turn into, what would you like it to do instead?

Yeah, I like that. I like that. A lot of these issues are, as you said, you can't get rid of and delete stuff that's there.

You know, so our experiences are negative stories that we tell ourselves from the past. They're always going to be there. But what we do is we overwrite that with more positive narratives, more positive habits.

Yeah.

Don't we?

So whilst I used a very, I don't know, coarse way of saying it, you know, tell yourself about a lie, lie, lie, cheat and steal. It's not really lying. It's actually putting in something that is more constructive. Constructive.

So in terms of developing leaders, you've alluded to this, that you do Some group work you can do some one to one work. What are the sort of main applications that you see RTT being used for? Inside leadership in organizations. Yeah.

I mean, let's start with employee performance.

Okay. Yeah.

Because you and I know that when they're not just marginally, but quite a bit happier with themselves, more serene with themselves, when they come into work kinder to themselves, they've got their cheerleader going, their performance is going to improve.

Absolutely.

By nature.

Absolutely.

It doesn't feel like work as much.

Yeah.

Because they're starting to enjoy it more. So performance improvement. Let's get to the hard nuts of it here.

Yeah.

The other big area is it helps with employee engagement.

Well, go on.

Often people talk about absenteeism. I'd like to talk about presenteeism.

Yeah, you're there but you're not really giving it your all.

No. And often people are in the state of presenteeism because they're not well, they're not 100% mentally well, they're not 100% physically well.

And when we can reverse that to a degree. When I say reverse, you're not going to reverse it 100%, but you get more people engaged at work, that's where the magic happens.

And you know this and I know this.

Yeah.

And if you look at the numbers on this and the Conservative numbers, 45 billion is wiped off the UK economy. That would sort our NHS tomorrow, wouldn't it?

Yeah, it would.

45 billion through lack of employee engagement driven by presenteeism. Let's just bring it down to something a bit more realistic that perhaps your listeners will identify with.

That's 1,500 to £2,000 a year per employee based on 30 million people at work in the UK at the moment. Yes, I have learned that stat because it's a powerful number. And anyone who thinks this is all woo, woo and soft, there's your number.

No, I mean sometimes while I'm talking to businesses about things like emotional intelligence and they'll say, that's all that soft and fluffy nonsense, isn't it? And I say, okay, let's flip this.

How much money do you spend each year on people being away from Wirakil or recruiting new people because you've lost them or. And you can go through a number of different measures. There's loads of them and mostly then they'll go, I don't know, I don't know, without checking.

But when they start to realise that when you add those numbers up, if they can even tell me what they are, suddenly, if that comes to a few thousand pounds or more, that's not soft and fluffy. No, that's hard and real.

It's very hard and real and it's a shocking number.

But it's unnecessary.

Yes. Yeah. And it's a number that's sadly going up because people aren't engaged with themselves. Engagement starts with us. Am I engaged with me?

So linking to engagement then. One of the things that when I talk to leaders that they sometimes are trying to do but find really hard is changing organizational culture.

Yeah.

Is RTT something you can really use to change organizational culture?

It is, it is. In terms of if you were to use, I mean, it really depends how far the CEO wants to go with this.

You know, when you've got your set of values and all of that, if you start with the employees and thinking, well, what, what sort of business do we want to be working in here? How are we going to treat each other, how we're going to be with our customers, our clients, etc, etc.

When you've got them in that relaxed state, they're going to come up with more thoughts and ideas on how to bring that culture to life.

Okay.

Rather than it respectfully being on some posters and mouse mats.

So sometimes it's just unblocking the thought process here, is it?

Yeah, yeah.

But by doing that you're, you are energized the employees because you're not just asking for their input, you're empowering themselves to believe in themselves more. You're empowering more cheerleaders.

If you've got more cheerleaders in your company, you're going to be more successful, your profits are going to go up and happy days.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm also another thing, obviously, that you'll be aware of this.

A lot of leaders are very, very time pressed these days and a lot of us are very time poor, aren't we? How does RTT help with the leader who just says, I, I don't have the time to work on myself or to drive the changes I need to.

I've just got so much to do. How does RTT help with that?

Well, first of all, again, when you're in the regression you're dealing with, I haven't got the time. Let's look at why you haven't got the time. Why have you always thought you've never had the time?

You often find people who haven't got the time have never had the time. They're always like the mad Hatter running with their watch in there. And I was like that. I was 100, you know, I was like that.

Yeah.

And so there's understanding that. Wait a minute, I've always been like that. How do I make the time?

Well, this is where rtt, I would say, would need to work with leadership businesses like yourself.

Yeah.

Because this is where the coaching comes in and there are great time management tools out there that people can start to use. But one of the things RTT really reinforces is really focusing on one thing at a time and doing it it really well.

Right.

Rather than trying to multitask through a hundred things in one go. Now people will say to me, that's not realistic. And I will say what it is, it's true.

Because successful, highly successful businesses that have high retention and you look at the data, employees are encouraged to work and focus on one thing at a time and do it really well.

Do it well.

Yeah. Instead of playing catch up.

Yeah, yeah.

Instead of playing catch up and fixing things that haven't been put together right in the first place.

I also think that your point about giving somebody a toolkit. So there was a McKinsey article quite a few years ago about why do sometimes leadership programs not deliver the outcomes that people are expecting?

Because actually, on one level you could say, well, if I give somebody a bunch of new tools to use, they should be to go and apply those and it will make things better. But it doesn't. Because actually the stuff that's blocking that is not the fact that got a toolkit or not, it's the fact I've got a mental block.

I'm actually using it. Yeah.

When I'm working with.

When rtt, let's say RTT is being used with in the corporate world, often we get to this point and then we hand it over to the leadership consultants, trainers, coaches to take it to the next level.

Because what we've done is we've unblocked all this, we've reframed it, we've given them a purpose to actually get behind, to change the culture, where the business is going and so on and so forth. But most importantly, we've reinstalled all these cheerleaders. So suddenly you've got all this energy to work with.

So when you introduce tools such as the Pomodoro technique for time management, which is one of my favorites, where you have 20 minutes and you focus and everything's switched off.

Yeah.

I mean, remember me back in the day, I'd have all These phones on at the same time. I mean, you know, I'll be honest, I'll put my hands up here. I was the worst for it, but now everything is switched off.

Everything is switched switched off. And, you know, I'm starting a new business.

I need new clients, I've got some clients and so on, but I still, if I'm focused on writing an article or whatever it is, it's 100% focus of time and it's better for you and it's better for your business.

I think where I can see RTT working, I have this mantra when people say to me, how do you help? How do you help us develop leaders and what sort of tools are going to give them? And I say, well, hang on, it's not just about giving them new tools.

I say it's mindset, motivation and then methodology. It's in that order. So what we do a lot is helping people, first of all, get the mindset in the right place. And that's what you're talking about.

So I'm guessing where RTT really comes in is the mindset and the motivation bit. It gets to the heart of that really quickly, doesn't it?

Yeah. You can give them all the tools and they'll be behind this to have a growth mindset.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're giving them this. I can grow, I could grow, I can grow, I can learn, I can apply. Absolutely.

But the fixed mindset, which is often seen as all people with a fixed mindset, they're the naughty children. They should be on the naughty step. That's not true. They just stuck. Dave.

Some of them are naughty, but most of them, most, most people come to work wanting to do a great job. And people who are stuck aren't doing it on purpose. They're just stuck.

And if we can move more of those people now, some business owners say, well, get rid of them. Well, yeah, and then recruit more people who get stuck. And then get rid of them and recruit more people who get stuck. And so that negative cycle.

But the interesting thing about that, I mean, Rich and I did. Did a podcast. Podcast episode on a really fundamentally important book and quite simple in its sort of how you present it.

Equation performance equals potential minus interference.

Yeah.

It comes from a Tim Galway book years ago, the Inner Game of Golf. The Inner game of tennis. Wow. In a game of golf. I like that. Yeah.

It's a very simple equation, performance, I. E. Desirable outcomes equals potential, which is made up of all sorts of things. Skills, knowledge, experience, you know, all those things. Things Minus interference. Now the interference can happen on an individual level.

So all those things you've been talking about, the narratives and the. Yeah, but it can happen on a team and organizational level as well.

So if we keep putting new people into an organizational environment that isn't quite right, you will, as you said, have the same problem again and again and again.

Yeah. Because their inner critic is in charge. But worse still, the inner critic is being cheer led by the external inner critic of our organization.

Okay, so there might be people listening to this. Rich are going, okay, I can see there's a lot of sense being talked to them. They might not be thinking about. They might think we are talking woo woo.

But the ones that think we are talking some sense here. Yeah. There may still be some skepticism and some misunderstandings.

Obviously, if we're going to sort of have things like RTT fitting into mainstream leadership development, which I don't necessarily disagree would be a great thing. How do we address the skepticism and the misunderstandings of stuff like this?

Yeah, I think it's always to. Well the first of all you can talk about employee engagement and the numbers I've just mentioned.

Yeah.

Some of the, some of the areas where RTT has been used in, in partnership with leadership development. Very recently, nhs with stress, doctors and nurses. Okay. To help improve performance there.

And the work that went on at Worcester Hospital with the runners now running and moving people from one consultant to another. So you haven't got these massive delays.

Okay.

Which I experienced when I broke my uncle.

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

It's been used in Marks and Spencer's for sales. So these. I'm just giving you some companies where it's used. Chanel dealing with high net worth clients, assistants, Quite a funny one.

So Chanel had this problem where. Well I say problem where the high net worth client would come in. Say it was Angelina Jolie or Julia Roberts or whatever, whoever.

Yeah, yeah.

And they would be having a great conversation with him but the assistant would get in the way. So it's how they dealt with that without wanting to thump the assistant, how they reacted to those.

I know it might seem dark, but we're talking a lot of dollars here.

Yeah.

The football club.

Yes.

Okay. Yeah.

So Marissa and her team went into Wigan Athletic and they were at the top of the first division and they had a chance to make. Moved to the Premier League.

Okay.

They Were doing really well.

Yeah.

Then suddenly there was that imposter syndrome. Hesitation, apprehension. She got the group of them together.

What, amongst the players, you mean? Yeah, okay.

Yeah, yeah. She got the players together. The players must be thinking, wtf? And she said, what's getting in the way here? Well, you know, it's Premier League. Yes.

So.

Yeah.

Do you not think you're good enough? Well, yeah. She goes, you don't, do you? So she, she did it as a girl group.

Yeah.

But when she went into the transformation, she said, you are a team, a pack of wolves. You're like Vikings. Remember? They were in that relaxed state. She sent them the recording and they got into the Premier League.

Yeah.

They won 3, 1. And it got them into the Premier League.

Right, yeah, yeah, Interesting.

So I think, I think for businesses, it's good to show other business case studies.

Absolutely.

Always we can look at the numbers on employee engagement.

And you know this as a leadership development consultant and you know, the business you do, you know, transformation work you do with leaders and managers that, you know, getting that over the line.

But if, if companies want to continue in that transactional manner, I don't want to be critical, but it will always be transactional if they want to transform their businesses and survive the hard times. And we're in some hard times at the moment.

Yeah, well, we could be in those times for a long time as well, couldn't we? Because the world's going into a very different phase of its development.

Huge.

Yeah. And I. And I don't know if I can. I find it hard to really think where the world will be in five years time.

But my sense is, with what's going on geopolitically, that it won't necessarily be all roses and chocolates, will it? It's going to be some tough times ahead, I think. But it doesn't mean that our businesses have to suffer in that.

No, no.

And you know, this, you know, going back to Darwin, survival of the fittest, it's not so much to the fittest, but those that adapt to change the easiest, you know, face that. Right. Those that can adapt to change.

If you want your business to adapt to change and change is going on massively at the moment, massively, the world has shifted in gigantic proportions. Then you have to then equip your people. If you want your people to be resilient, you can't afford any blockers.

And if you say, well, that's their personal, what's it? Well, that's naive at best.

Interference definitely happens on an individual Team and organizational level. There's no doubt at the. About that. No, I think you're right. I think, yes.

Whilst we might be going through a tough economic time, although some companies are thriving, I've got, I know clients of ours that are thriving. So not everybody is struggling. No. But you know, a lot of people are.

But actually like you said, in these tougher times, there's always opportunity, there's always a chance to reframe the narrative. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I will say what's interesting with, and I know this is personal clients and we're talking about leaders and people, businesses, but I will talk about a. Somebody who is a client of mine.

Okay. Yeah.

And she's doing very well.

Yeah.

She has a very high profile contract with some very senior people in this, in this country.

Yeah.

And she's, she's lovely, she's very humble.

Yeah.

And she has come to me as a client for RTT and the question, you know, I would say to anyone is why would she, why would she want to still get even better than she is?

Okay. Yeah.

And it's back to your point on self improvement reflection. Any blockers that have arisen and doing a bit of a clean out, doing a bit of a stock take in your head.

It's interesting. One of the, it feeds into a book I read by a guy really, I really like his writing style. Daniel H. Pink, American author.

And this book called Drive is all about motivation.

Yeah.

Personal motivation and what really motivates people. And he talked about, you used the analogy earlier on about upgrading your software to the, the latest version. He used that same analogy.

He said motivation in the workplace needs to be updated to the latest version of the correct software. And what he was talking about is that motivation is about mastery, purpose and autonomy.

And the mastery bit I think is really important because most people I think want to feel like they're developing in some way, shape or form, feel they could do things better than they are. Most of us don't go, I'll just stay in my current. Just happy with it, who I am. I'm not going to develop anymore. I'm getting better at anything.

I don't think most of us really want that. If the truth be known, if we.

Don'T do it at work, we're developing outside of work.

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, it might just be I want to be, I want to be a better mum or I want to be a better dad or I want to be a better tennis player or you know what a better singer, actor or whatever. Whatever it is that you do. Yeah. Actually, most of us would like to think we could get a little bit better at it.

Yeah.

So mastery and it sounds like a posh word, but it's actually just being better at stuff does matter to most people. People. It does.

It does.

Yeah.

And I think when I go back to this sense of stuckness, some people, it's like rabbit's eyes in the headlights because they feel that they're in a world where they're. They are constantly being bombarded when they are the only ones who can change that response and that world.

Yeah.

For them.

Yeah.

So they can switch off phones and people say, I can't. You can switch it off. I can't believe what I do now with my phone. I don't use. Have it on. On as much as I used to. It goes off at seven in the evening.

That's it. No one can get me, you know.

Yeah. Well, that's. That's a conscious choice that you've now come to the point in your life where you've realized that my habits before weren't helping me.

I need to put some new habits in place. Okay. You had to hit rock bottom to get there, but you've come out the other side and you've proved that you can live a different way. Yeah.

And when I came out the other side, I didn't come straight into becoming a therapist. I was very motivated by the idea. So I did research and start studying. But I went back into corporate life for another four years. Four, five years.

And I believe I was successful at it.

Well, yeah, I think you always have been an exciting new. Exciting new journey now for you.

Yeah, indeed.

Yeah, indeed. So in wrapping up this, rich in some final reflections and thank you for being brutally honest.

I knew you would be, I think sharing your story and your story, it always helps other people. I think it always helps other people.

So if there's a leader listening to this and they want to explore this a bit more for themselves, maybe they might still be a bit skeptical. They might be thinking, okay, look, there is something in this. There is some common sense here. I want to explore it for me or for my team.

Where should they start?

When you say, where should they start? Start with me or start with themselves?

Both.

Okay. Okay. Sack the inner critic and reinstate the cheerleader.

Okay.

That's number one.

Right.

They must remember imagination is always more powerful than knowledge when it comes to the mind.

Oh, okay. I like that.

Imagine. I'll say it again. Imagination is more powerful than knowledge when it Comes to the mind. Give yourself time to imagine. It's powerful.

Okay?

Your mind learns through repetition. So whatever you decide to do, keep doing it.

Yeah, yeah.

It's a bit like going to the gym to get fitter or improving your swing with golf or whatever, is it? It is. It's the same with the mind. Okay. And most importantly, use positive words.

When I say sack the critic, I'm talking about the words you say to yourself. Would you speak to your own child or loved one or best friend? The way you speak to yourself.

And when you catch yourself out during the day going, idiot, fool, blah, blah, blah, change that, change those words.

Those subtle changes in words make an absolutely massive difference sometimes, don't they do.

Because don't forget, the brain doesn't care what you tell it. And if you tell it, you're an idiot. They'll go, okay, okay. The brain doesn't care.

No, no.

And as you said, Dave, it's designed to move you away from pain. And if you're saying all of this is painful, then it wants to move you away from there.

And if you can't or you don't move away from there, that's when the earthquake can happen.

Well, the problem with that, with that is it moves you away. And the stock way it does it is either fight, flight or freeze. What you're talking about is something a lot more conscious and deliberate.

Yeah.

Isn't it? Not the fight, flight or freeze response to that fear, but something more conscious and deliberate.

Yeah.

So, Rich, if somebody wants to find out about more about you and the work that you do, where can they find you?

They can find me on my website.

Yeah.

Which is RichardStokes.co.uk RichardStokes.co.uk. yeah, I was up all night thinking of that name.

And you're on LinkedIn as well.

I'm on LinkedIn. Richard Stokes on LinkedIn. I'm on on Facebook for business as well and on Instagram for business.

Okay. So I would wholeheartedly follow Rich on LinkedIn. I know you're going to be putting out some useful tips and help on a regular basis.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Go and explore Rich's website. So I'll say that again. Richardstokes.co.uk Correct.

And yeah, what I'm really interested in again, Rich, maybe is if in a few months time maybe we'll have a part two to this where we can talk about some of the more, you know, practical applications of this. Because I think there's a lot to unpack here. There is, there's a lot to unpack, but it's been a really interesting conversation.

Thank you, Dave.

So thank you for your time. Thank you for coming in to see me.

My pleasure.

And really good luck with this new business that you've launched.

Thank you.

Thank you.