Why inclusive leadership must include menopause awareness – and what leaders can do about it.

In this powerful Voices of Leadership episode of Unleash Your Impact, Unlock Others, Dave talks with Shirley Gray, Founder of Gray Matter Learning and long-time Zentano associate, about one of the most overlooked topics in leadership: menopause.

Shirley shares her deeply personal story and explains why menopause remains a taboo subject in many workplaces despite the fact that it affects a significant proportion of the workforce. From anxiety and brain fog to declining confidence and emotional overload, the symptoms are real – and the consequences of ignoring them are even more so.

But this episode isn’t just about awareness – it’s about action. Shirley outlines how leaders can create psychologically safe workplaces, implement menopause-friendly policies, and retain valuable talent by embracing inclusive leadership at every level.

She also introduces the upcoming workshop she’ll be delivering in partnership with Zentano in June:

➡️ Removing the Glass Ceiling: Leading with Menopause

📍 Stanbrook Abbey, 11 June 2025

🔗 Register now on Eventbrite

Key Talking Points:

• Shirley’s personal journey into leadership and menopause advocacy
• The surprising range of menopause symptoms that affect performance
• Why menopause is still a career-limiting issue for many
• How leaders (especially male allies) can create inclusive, supportive environments
• A sneak peek at Shirley’s workshop content and practical takeaways

Listen now – and share it with someone who needs to hear this.

Speaker A

Welcome to Unleash youh Impact, Unlock Others, a podcast about inspiring leadership. We hope to bring you grounded wisdom, stories from real leaders and leave you feeling inspired. Let's dive in.

Welcome to Voices of Leadership, where we dive into real stories and practical insights from leaders who are breaking barriers, challenging conventions and creating connections. This is the essence of being what Zentano call a connected leader.

Today we're very excited to welcome Shirley Gray, founder of Grey Matter Learning and a valued associate of Zentano for many years. Shirley is absolutely passionate about developing leaders who can overcome barriers and thrive.

Her focus on leading with menopause is particularly important topic that both men and women share. Should be focusing on if they want to genuinely create an inclusive working environment.

Shirley will be partnering with us in June to run a public workshop entitled Removing the Glass Ceiling, which focuses on helping leaders navigate barriers to inclusivity, particularly in relation to menopause.

We'll be exploring Shirley's personal journey, her insights, her observations on leadership, and in particular the importance of awareness and support around menopause and and what leaders can do to create more inclusive, supportive workplaces. Plus, we'll be talking about the exciting upcoming workshop and how you can all get involved. So without further ado, let's dive in.

Okay, so welcome to Voices of Leadership and welcome to Shirley Gray. Hi, Shirley.

Speaker B

Hi, Dave. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

Speaker A

And what a lovely day as well.

Speaker B

Oh, it's stunning day, isn't it? Spring has definitely sprung.

Speaker A

Let's hope so. Let's hope it's here to stay.

Speaker B

Absolutely.

Speaker A

Now, surely this is a particularly interesting conversation for me because menopause is something that actually in our family, my wife is going through the perimenopause part of that and I've seen it firsthand. You know what that does. Yeah. So it's a really interesting conversation I think we're going to have today.

But before we get into the details of that, do you want to share a bit about your background for the listeners and what led you to work in leadership development in the first place?

Speaker B

Certainly, certainly. Well, as you can probably tell and your listeners can tell, I'm not from here, from Ireland originally.

And then one day I had an epiphany and I was managing a large team of quite young, challenging individuals of 20 who were always ringing in sick and really had no desire to carry out their job. But I loved the training and the coaching aspect. So I had an epiphany one day. I was like, you know what, this isn't my calling.

And I remember thinking back to that trainer who was absolutely inspirational at 19 years of age in Brown Thomas back in Dublin, and I remember thinking, that's what I meant to do.

So what I decided to do was get my training qualification, my CIPD at night whilst working, whilst being a leader in this financial services company in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire. And then I moved into training and got my training qualification, I studied at night and here I am so many years later.

Speaker A

So initially you weren't just training retail?

Speaker B

No, not at all, no. So initially I was working in retail as a sales consultant for a very prestigious store. It's the most prestigious store in, in Ireland.

And actually with that they had excellent training. So we used to go on customer service, we used to go on confidence building workshops.

And at that age, you know, if you think back to that age, I really didn't feel like I would ever have the knowledge, the confidence to do that kind of job, to inspire people. And then over the years I managed to realize actually, you know, I have what it takes.

Maybe not at 19 years of age, but certainly I just got over those limiting beliefs and I decided to train and give back to others and help others flourish like that gentleman did all those years ago. Helped me flourish. Yeah, in the training environment.

Speaker A

And what type of leaders have you trained over the years then?

Speaker B

Various. I've worked in various different industries because as you mentioned earlier, I'm working for myself now. Grey Matter learning.

My name is Shirley Gray. See what I did there?

Speaker A

Yep.

Speaker B

So I worked with various different leaders. I've Worked with leaders in financial services, in health care. I've worked a lot in the motor trade, production, manufacturing.

Speaker A

All sorts.

Speaker B

All sorts? All sorts. A whole array.

Speaker A

Do you find. I mean, what Rich and I have found over the years is that the leadership challenges are pretty much the same, whatever context you're in.

Speaker B

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker A

It's the same things that come up, the same things that people find difficult.

Speaker B

Yeah. Hence, I think you and I are businesses. We're able to work with all different industries. It's not one size fits all.

Speaker A

No, no. And sometimes it actually helps if you don't have a background in.

Speaker B

You don't have any preconceived ideas then, do you? Coming in fresh set of eyes.

Speaker A

Okay. So that's how you got into training. And as you say, it's your calling. It's the thing that you love doing.

Speaker B

It is.

Speaker A

And because I know you've done some work for us, you're very good at it as well.

Speaker B

Thank you very much.

Speaker A

And I think people warm to you because you have that sort of really great talent of being able to connect with people.

Speaker B

Thank you.

Speaker A

So what inspired you to focus on leadership and menopause, then, as your key area of work? Because that's.

Speaker B

Well, actually, it is really interesting.

And to be perfectly honest with you, Dave, I'm 47 next week, next Friday, and in my early 40s myself, I started to experience menopause challenges at that time, early 40s, I didn't realize what it was. I would have never said in the past that I was experiencing anxiety.

And I remember really vividly several years ago where I was on a day off and I was driving to the Malvern Hills with my dog, which I like to go up and take her for a walk. And I was stopped in my tracks because there was nine different car parks I could park at.

And I got so overwhelmed by the decision of where to park, so I drove home. And at that time, I didn't realize that this was menopausal symptoms.

And then as I explored a bit further, I have a large network, network of trainers who are now my friends, similar ages to myself. And we'd have conversations, open conversations, and I realized actually it was menopausal symptoms. And that was the start of it.

So I became really passionate about educating leaders and educating leaders on helping their employees have a psychological safe environment where they could speak up and they could talk about the challenges and they could create an environment that made people feel like they could actually speak about it. Because this is real stuff.

Speaker A

Yeah. Is it? I Mean for all the people listening, particularly the men listening? Yes, probably for women as well.

You talked about experiencing that real anxiety of where to park and you didn't realize what was going on. Did women initially not recognize that it is the menopause? It doesn't compute straight away.

Speaker B

Not straight away, not straight away. You just sort of have these episodes of brain fog and you just, you wonder what's going on here? I don't know, is there other stuff?

And I suppose at the time it was off the back of COVID as well, and everybody was in a bit of disarray after that. So you don't often, often realize initially what it is. And then you have bouts of not being able to sleep properly.

Brain fog, you know, for me, it was like forgetting a delegate's name. And then you'd beat yourself up thinking, why can't I remember that person's name?

And as you start to chat with other, other, and we have to say people, because of course, it's not always just women. You can have non binary, you can have transgender people who'd be experiencing these challenges.

And I feel so passionate about getting the message out there to create this environment where you might have menopause champions, because you have first aiders, health and safety first aiders. And why not create menopause champions? Introduce menopause policies into the workplace, make provisions for people who are experiencing menopause.

If that's amending somebody's uniform or letting them sit beside a window or ensuring there's fans at people's desks. Because I really think it's so important to educate leaders. Because if you think about the statistics, this is where I might bore you a little bit.

I think it's very fascinating if you think about the average workforce. So 51% of the population in the UK are women.

Speaker A

Yeah.

Speaker B

Okay. People retire now at 67. That's the retirement age.

67, if you think about it, menopause, the actual age they say that typically women or people are in menopause is 51 years of age. That's when you're in full blown menopause. However, perimenopause can start in your 30s and certainly early 40s. And in my case, it was early 40s.

But if you think about, you could potentially have individuals from the case of, say, 40, 40 years of age right up to 67. That's 27 years left of somebody's life. And at this stage, most people experiencing menopause, their children may have gone off to.

They've flown the nest, they don't have to do the school run quite often. Sometimes they may do. They don't have to look after the school run, they don't have kids ringing in sick and they have to take time off.

These are really a huge loyal demographic of people with loads of years of knowledge, loads of dedication to the job. Why would you let workforce leave?

Because there's some incredible stats where there's a stat by the ONS, the Office of National Statistics that said that 1 million people consider leaving their jobs when they're experiencing menopause symptoms.

Speaker A

Wow, that's a lot of people.

Speaker B

It is, isn't it? It really is.

Speaker A

I mean, I know from my wife's own experience, I mean she's very, very good at her job, she works in retail. I know she's very much valued by her boss and he would, the last thing he would ever want is her to leave.

So he's been quite flexible, I think in terms of when she has struggled. Of course we have got children, we have 10 and 12 year old girls. So she is dealing with it in the flow of having a young family around.

Everything else. I don't think I realized initially when she started experiencing the sort of things that you were talking about, just how much it was affecting her.

Now you talked about your experience. Anxiety. What other emotions does it drive? Because I imagine there's a whole range of emotions.

Speaker B

The last study I read, Dave, said that there's about 50 symptoms of menopause. 50, 50. Roughly around 50. Be anything from anxiety. Brain fog is a big, big factor.

Just simple little things that you just can't put your, your finger on the name of a word, just something random that you just can't, you can't bring to your mind in that particular moment. And then that in turn causes anxiety because you're beating yourself up to think, oh my God, why can't I think of that word?

And then there's all the lack of confidence and that brings as well a lack of ability. You might start questioning yourself, why can't I think of a word? Why can't I? Why can't I function?

So they're very common as in the anxiety, the brain, things like itchy skin, there's sleep is a big factor as well. There's so many different things that somebody would experience like this. There's just a whole host.

Speaker A

Quite frightening as well, I'd imagine for some people.

Speaker B

Absolutely. Yeah. Especially if you don't know in that moment in time what's going on. Very, very frightening. It's a huge amount of symptoms.

Speaker A

Yeah. Wow. I didn't realize it was as high as 50, but there you go. This is why we're having this conversation with you.

Speaker B

Lack of libido as well. And again, you start to criticize yourself, oh, my God, what's wrong with me? What's going on? And it can impact relationships.

Let's face it, if your partner is not aware of what's going on, or if you're not aware.

Speaker A

I think it's not even just the awareness, because obviously I was aware of what she was going through, but probably not the impact so much until we got to a point late last year, beginning of this year, where she basically sat down and wrote me a letter about, this is how I'm struggling, and this is the impact of what's going on. And I think in. And she did that. She wrote it down just because she wanted to get her words out without getting flustered.

So it wasn't just a case of she couldn't talk to me. But I think when I read that and thought, oh, wow, I now really start to get quite how challenging this is.

And then you think, okay, well, as a family, we've got to try and help out here. Now, I guess the workplace is the same. If your family are going to help out, why wouldn't your workplace do the same?

Because if you value your people, well.

Speaker B

That'S the psychological safe environment.

And I know we'll get to it later, but the course I'm delivering alongside you guys, alongside Santana, we're going to look at how do you create a culture where you have a psychological safe environment so people feel like they can speak up?

And if you think about it, there's still comments that people make, women's problems and inverted commas, and people don't often feel like they can speak up and say how they're feeling. And I think that's wonderful. What your wife has done is actually to write down. Exactly.

Just get it out of her head, actually write down how she's feeling. And I would encourage people to do that because then you get that clarity and you realize, actually, what is it I'm experiencing?

And then you can have those conversations with your loved ones.

Speaker A

Yeah, I find it very helpful because it, you know, I could read it in very slow time and understand what was being told and then have a think about, okay, well, how am I going to respond to this? And hopefully respond in a, you know, emotionally intelligent way.

But also, you know, end of the day, you don't want to see somebody you love struggle, do you?

And if you're working with people that you value their company and you value their camaraderie and what have you in the workplace, you want to do your best by them. So we'll come into sort of the workshop we're doing in June. A bit late, but I just want to go back to.

This podcast is about leadership and we're calling this Breaking the Glass Ceiling. So why do you think menopause is such an overlooked topic topic when it comes to leadership in the workplace?

Speaker B

Well, it's a real taboo subject, Dave, and people feel fearful of mentioning about the symptoms that they're experiencing because they feel like it could impact their career progression. Or as I mentioned a few moments ago, it could be that they feel like it's women's problems, or some people perceive it as being a real joke.

And people might be perceived as being difficult if they're having a hot flush. That's another really common symptom. If they're having a hot flush or if they're.

They're experiencing some anxiety, if they are a bit extra emotional that day, they might be perceived as being quite, quite difficult. So hence it's really overlooked because there isn't a great awareness out there.

25% of people have left their jobs because of menopausal symptoms. 44% felt that they didn't have the support.

Speaker A

Yeah, no, I mean, that doesn't surprise me. It's sad. It doesn't surprise me.

Speaker B

They just don't have the awareness. This is a relatively new topic.

Speaker A

And also, if you've got great women leaders, why would you want them to leave?

Speaker B

Well, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A

Just because they're going through a time in their life where things are.

Speaker B

It's transient. It's transient. You know, as I mentioned earlier, you've got X amount of years of an individual who's highly experienced, very loyal.

Think about the repercussions. It cost on average 25 grand to replace an individual with recruit recruitment costs, with training a new employee. You know, think about the.

The impact in terms of productivity, the impact on morale, the reputation of your business. Why would you, why would you want to lose really valuable staff?

Speaker A

Well, I think you made the point earlier on.

You know, there's more and more people living longer and Longer now there's less people coming into the workplace to replace the people that are now retired. And if we start losing people for all these reasons, we'll have no one left. Are we.

Speaker B

Exactly.

Speaker A

To lead our businesses? So, no, it is an important thing. And I guess it's like a lot of other issues around diversity and inclusion.

It is about education, it's about raising the level of understanding for women, but particularly men, I think, because we don't experience it, you know. So as empathetic as I'd like to be, I'm not going to go through what you've been through.

Speaker B

Absolutely.

Speaker A

So I don't understand it from your perspective, but I can try.

Speaker B

And that was one of my drivers to actually create Leading with Menopause because I was really keen on educating men. And even my partner has learned so much in recent years that he wouldn't have known previously being with me.

And I feel so passionate about not just educating leaders, but educating men. Because this is a topic that is real and women experience. Experience it, People experience it.

Speaker A

Right. Shirley, a question for you.

What can organisations and leaders do to better support the people that are going through menopause and their teams and the experiences that you were describing?

Speaker B

It's a great question, Dave. So companies can create a menopause policy. It's not mandatory to have a menopause policy. However, it is mandatory to have a health and safety policy.

So you can incorporate that into your health and safety policy. Things they can do are have menopause champions. Now, menopause champions will create that culture where it's okay to speak up.

They again, create that environment which is a psychological, safe environment. They will be a signposter to show you where to go.

They will provide options for counselling, maybe paid counseling, maybe flexible working hours, maybe have a fan at your desk, have offices where it's better ventilation.

They will really be that advocate to drive the change and create that environment where people feel like they can speak up about the challenges that they're experiencing in regards to menopause.

Speaker A

Okay, lovely. The workshop you're running with Zentano in June, we're calling it Removing the Glass Ceiling.

And there's a couple of topics that we're going to be talking about in that workshop. The one that you're going to be talking about is Leading with Menopause.

So just tell us more about why you called it Leading with Menopause and what that's going to be about.

Speaker B

When I was designing the course, I wanted to aim the course at leaders, trainers, coaches, as opposed to employees learning about menopause.

Because what I wanted to do was create this culture that leaders understand about menopause and therefore they can create an environment where they can support their employees and understand some of the challenges that employees go through. And as I mentioned earlier, they can create a menopause policy, they can create menopause champions and they can really be that advocate.

So this course is going to cover essentially how to look after, well, really half of the workforce in terms of it being really women. And it's aimed at all leaders.

It could be a leader in a very senior position, it could be a leader in, it could be a team leader, it could be any sort of industry. And it's just helping them understand more about the symptoms. People experience, things that they can do. It's going to be very experiential.

It is a half a day workshop.

You're not going to just have me presenting with you, you're going to get involved, you're going to take some real great actions away to implement in the workplace.

Speaker A

So that was one of my questions, actually. What can the participants expect to learn and gain and take away from the event?

Speaker B

Very experiential.

They're going to get involved, we're going to get you doing activities, you're going to learn from others, you're going to learn from maybe people who are experiencing menopausal challenges themselves, including myself.

And you're going to have some real great actions to take away that you can then implement into the workplace and make your, your culture, menopause friendly and a place to work and somewhere that creates this psychological safe environment which we.

Speaker A

Need for all sorts of different issues in the workplace, don't we? It's not just menopause. Psychological safety is so important for a whole number of reasons.

So why is this workshop important and who would most benefit from attending? So you said leaders at any level? Senior leaders, junior team leaders?

Speaker B

Absolutely.

Speaker A

Doesn't really matter.

Speaker B

Line managers? No. I know it probably sounds a bit vague, but it's called leading with menopause.

So the leadership of any industry, any stage in their career, can learn more about what they need to do to support their employees and then increase productivity, staff retention. And it is really just aims at all different leaders in all different industries and particularly men as well. Not just men. Not just men.

Speaker A

I would like to see some men coming along to this because I think it is really important that all of us, because we are going to experience what I'm experiencing at some point, aren't we? Where somebody close to you in your life is going through, through this and they need some support. So yeah, no, it is important.

I would like some men to come along and attend. So how can people sign up and get involved?

Speaker B

There's an eventbrite link that will be on our socials on Zentano and on my LinkedIn on grey matter learning on my website, which is greymatterlearning.com that's grey with an A. You can get in touch with me on socials. Get in touch with you, Dave and Rich Omzentano and we'll put the link.

Speaker A

The Eventbrite link, the podcast notes as well. So we'll make sure people have plenty of ways of actually finding that. Okay, great.

Well, I'm really looking forward to that day because I think it'll be a really interesting day and let's hope we get plenty of people coming along.

Speaker B

Me too. I can't wait.

Speaker A

Yeah. So final thoughts.

Basically, what advice would you give to leaders who feel like they're hitting a glass ceiling, either professionally or personally, what would your advice be?

Speaker B

Another great question, Dave. And I can only really speak for myself and what I've done to overcome that glass ceiling.

And I think it's really about having a growth mindset and look at what you've learned so far and what you can continue to learn you in order to get you to the next level. I think it's about having compassion for yourself as well. For me, I will go to the gym when I'm feeling a little bit stressed or having anxiety.

I'll take my dog for a walk. I'll go to my happy place, my holidays, which is Ibiza.

And for me, that just refreshes me and helps me then know that I can be the best version of myself really and break through that class season.

Speaker A

It's really important, isn't it?

Because Rich and I did a podcast a couple of weeks back on energy management and I think this is a particularly time of your life where managing your energy I'd imagine is really important.

Speaker B

Absolutely. Because that's another symptom of like menopause is lack of energy.

Speaker A

Yeah. But rest and recovery for all people, no matter what they do, what they're experiencing is important.

So yeah, I guess understanding when your battery is getting low and how you recharge that you obviously very clear about how you recharge yours.

Speaker B

Yeah. And that would be my advice. What works for you? Because one size doesn't fit all.

So me going off to my happy place and I beat that may not Suit somebody else. Somebody else might not have a dog, but that works for me. It's just getting clear on how you can replenish that battery and what works for you.

And certainly a growth mindset works for me as well.

Speaker A

And what about for any. Any women listening to this who might be struggling to speak up or afraid to speak up? What would your advice be to them then?

Speaker B

It's a great question. I think. What's the worst that could happen? What is the worst that could happen?

I think it's important that you feel like you have a voice and you can speak up. And I think once you do speak up, it empowers you then to actually speak up even more, rather than sitting there and just stewing over something.

It then instills confidence in you to. To feel like you can actually be assertive. And that's really important to me to be able to speak up. And I want to help others to.

On my leading with menopause, I want to help the leaders to encourage their employees to have a voice and speak up and be honest. And if they're experiencing symptoms due to menopause, that's okay. And it's about normalizing this.

It's about creating conversations where you can normalize this stuff. And it's not seen as a joke, and it's not seen as women's problems in infertile commas.

Speaker A

Well, my call to action to the men listing as well is we need to probably step up a little bit here.

There's lots and lots of men that actually would be very, very sympathetic, I think, if people did speak up, you know, But I think we need to maybe be more proactive in making the work environment, as you said, psychologically safe.

So people who are going through menopause can speak up and not feel they're being judged, not feel they're being sidelined, not feel all the things you were talking about earlier on. Come on, men, let's make these workplaces a much more inclusive place.

Speaker B

Hashtag man for menopause.

Speaker A

Well, I did hear once. I don't know if it's true. Is there such a thing as a manopause?

Speaker B

Well, there is. There is, Dave. That's another podcast, though. Dave, let's not go.

Speaker A

Let's not get into that, shall we? Let's not go there. No. Because we could also podcast about man flu as well. But you won't go there either. No.

Joking apart, Shirley, thank you so much for coming to talk to me today about this.

Speaker B

Thank you.

Speaker A

I think it's a really important topic. Really looking forward to the workshop in June. So if anybody wants to get involved in that, please get in touch with us again.

The links will all be out there on Shirley's website. Website, Santana's website, on both of our social media. And we're looking forward to seeing a few people there.

Speaker B

Absolutely. Can't wait to see you all there. Come along.

Speaker A

Thanks, Shirley.

Speaker B

Pleasure.

Speaker A

Bye.