In this Voices of Leadership episode of Unleash Your Impact, Unlock Others, Dave speaks with Suzanne Hall-Gibbons, Co-Founder of C2S The Growth Consultancy, about what leadership really demands in uncertain times.

Suzanne’s journey spans international roots, leading major regeneration programmes, managing redundancy conversations at age 28, transforming organisations without formal authority, and ultimately building a peer-driven growth consultancy.

Her central message is simple and powerful:

When the world speeds up, leaders must slow down.

Together, they explore what leadership requires now and into 2026 and beyond:

1. Agility without reactivity
2. Confidence without ego
3. Growth without losing people

If everything feels urgent, this episode is a reminder: better leadership doesn’t come from louder voices or faster decisions, it comes from better thinking.

Key Talking Points

1. Agility vs. knee-jerk reaction
2. Why “it’s not personal, it’s business” is a leadership myth
3. Leading change without authority
4. Resilience as clarity, not toughness
5. Communicating the “why” through story
6. Authenticity over charisma
7. Surrounding yourself with challenge, not comfort
8. Creating strategic thinking space
9. The power of peer learning
10. Developing future leaders through outreach

Welcome to Unleash youh Impact, Unlock Others, a podcast about inspiring leadership. We hope to bring you grounded wisdom, stories from real leaders and leave you feeling inspired. Let's dive in.

So welcome once again to Unleash youh Impact, Unlock Others.

This is a Voices of Leadership episode and in this episode we're going to explore a practical conversation to help leaders increase their impact without burning out or losing their people. Today I'm joined by a friend of mine I've known for many, many years, Suzanne Hall Gibbons, co founder of C2S growth.

Suzanne's story, I think, is remarkable.

From her childhood in Hong Kong to leading major projects in London and transforming organisations in the eye of the wight, she has built a unique perspective on leadership and growth.

So in this episode we'll explore those experiences, how they shaped her approach, why resilience and adaptability matter, and how C2S her business helps leaders create space to think strategically.

Thank you very much, Dave. It's great to be here.

Thank you. So I've called this episode why Leaders Space to Think, Especially when everything feels chaotic. Does life feel chaotic to you at the moment?

I think life has been chaotic, I just think that's now the norm for people. So there isn't those kind of quiet times we used to have, I think when people could take their foot off the pedal.

I think nowadays, you know, there are things you can respond to in terms of what's going on and there are things that you can't respond to outside of your sphere of influence, but it doesn't say they don't impact on you and that you either worry about them or you try to see what you're going to be doing about them. And if you look at the kind of flip flop politics that we see globally, there's not a lot we can do about that.

But actually it does play on our minds.

We think about, you know, what, what if you're in export and what happens with tariffs, what's happening with the war now, there's not a lot you can do about those. But I think all of those things now, there's no point waiting for them to end because there'll just be something else.

So I think chaos and change is just part of everything that we have to deal with now and it's just something we've just got used To.

To coin a phrase, it's our new normal, isn't it?

I think it is, yeah. We always say all through Covid it was the new norm. Well, the new norm is still the new norm.

Yeah.

And change and yes. Changing circumstance. Something we all have to manage.

And it's interesting, we were. Did a. We recorded a podcast yesterday with a gentleman called Seb shepherd who used to work in F1.

Oh, wow.

Rich was very excited because you know how much of an F1 fan he is.

But Seb made the point in his podcast that actually he thinks that one of the biggest leadership challenges at the moment in this world of, you know, where it's quite chaotic, is agility, how to be an agile leader. Not to get bogged down by process and slow decision making and all the things that may be that would.

It means you missed the boat or you're too late to the party. Actually, no, we need to be very, very agile and that's difficult when we don't have all the answers. We don't really know what's coming our way.

I would agree. I think, though, sometimes taking a breath is actually quite good because knee jerk reactions. So there's a difference between acting.

Yes. And knee jerk and knee jerk and

acting with agility and thought and process behind you with the facts, as well as not just responding to something and, you know, and reacting. So I do think there's a difference.

Yeah.

And I do think you have to have the processes, the facts, and some time to think about what that means. Because sometimes doing nothing is absolutely the right thing to do.

Absolutely.

Yeah. As we know, and even in our home lives, you know, responding to something instantly is not always the right thing.

Especially when you have children, you have

to take a breath. I think in business sometimes you have to take a breath because otherwise you go somewhere and it's not where you want to be and it's not really.

And turning around is even more difficult. So I do think there is. The agility is really important, but it's the right type of reaction that we're looking for. And I, I think that.

Well, the phrase I. I heard not that long ago, which I really like. It's. It's not about having all the answers, it's about asking better questions.

Yeah.

And I think it's that probing, that curiosity that what if before you make a decision.

Yeah.

Not after you make the decision. Yeah. So that it's the whole thinking process.

But yes, I think we've been talking about agile businesses and thinking for a long time, but I think probably we're now having to be that we are.

We have to live that out.

We'll get into C2S and why you started C2S later and why, you know, connecting with other people and stepping back and thinking strategically why all those things are important. But I want to take you back to young Suzanne's life.

Are you sure?

Yeah. No, I do. So when we first spoke and I didn't know this about you, I've known you for 10 years, I didn't know this about you. Yeah.

So you grew up in Hong Kong and South Yorkshire.

And I'm interested about some of your reflections of those times and how they shaped who you are today, the values you have today, how you see leadership today. I'm just interested in how that all started off, really.

Yeah. And I think one of the things I, when I look at my parents, how, you know, very, you know, what they did was quite unusual back in the 60s.

Right.

So my dad went, you know, went up to Hong Kong, he was an engineer. Left my mum, they'd only not been married that long. Left my mum in, in York, in Doncaster, pregnant, you know, he left before I was born.

Yeah.

So my mum had me packed a bag, got on an airplane with an 8 week old, 8 week old baby and went to somewhere that was so alien to her. Yeah. I mean she'd been to the south of France before. That's about as far as she'd gone. Right.

I didn't really, you know, they'd never really had exotic foods or anything like that.

So to take my mum from that kind of environment with a new baby at 24 into something like that, you have to go that, you know, that that's quite a big thing to do.

It's quite brave.

Yeah. That's why I think I, you know, I look at them and I go, that was a really brave thing to do.

My dad just wanted to do something else, something different.

And a colleague had gone to Hong Kong and spoken to my dad, said, I think this is, you know, a great place for you to be and a great place for you to develop your career.

Yeah.

And he was absolutely right. But at that time, you know, I can imagine, you know, my mum could quite easily have said, absolutely not.

You know, she could have really gone, I have no idea how are we going to do that? But she didn't. Packed bag six, baby got on an airplane. So I'm really, you know, always very proud of the fact that she's done that.

It was a really brave thing for them. Both to do.

Yeah.

Yeah. And my brother was born out there. So we were there for just coming up to about 10 years. And it was. While we weren't. It wasn't.

It was relatively privileged in terms of. We weren't wealthy, but it was quite a privileged environment to be an expat.

Expat environment.

Yeah. In. In Hong Kong at that particular. Particular time. You know, we traveled quite extensively. Yeah.

My dad traveled a huge amount, and we enjoyed quite a nice lifestyle in terms of its outdoor. The swimming pools. They had servants and that kind of thing. So. So it's quite a privileged environment. And then my dad decided that we.

They didn't want us to go to boarding schools.

Okay.

So before we went to senior school, we all came back to the uk, back to Doncaster. That was, I have to say, probably the biggest culture shock that my brother and I had ever experienced. Right.

Because we then deposited back into a state school.

Yeah.

At 10. My brother's a bit younger with, you know, when we were like aliens.

Yeah.

People that, you know, because we had had a different. Completely different lifestyle, we were formative years.

We're in a foreign country.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And we spoke good English. Yeah. In that.

In that sense, we spoke a little bit of Chinese and we were a little bit sort of more quirky than anybody else, I guess, from there. So that. That was an interesting experience in terms of having to make friends, having to fit in.

Yeah.

I think my brother fitted in. He. He kind of embraced it more. He had lost his accent really quickly and just got kind of got on with it. I think I found it a little more.

I was a bit. Little bit older.

Yeah.

A bit harder to do that because I just think I was just a bit older. I'd had a bit more time in the kind of environment that I had been in. So going to school was a bit more difficult.

Making friends was a bit more difficult.

I was gonna say having two daughters myself, who are a tiny bit older than you when you came back. For girls particularly, that's a big part of your life, isn't it, where friendships really matter.

Maybe, you know, you struggle with friendships a bit at that age because you're trying to work out who you like and who you don't like, and you're.

You're develop. You're growing yourself and you're, you know.

Yeah.

You're maturing. You're sort of 11, 12, 13.

Yeah.

And it was before we went to senior school, so it was junior school.

Right.

So they'd all been together since, you Know they were five and six.

Yeah.

And then some, you know, some girl is bumped into the middle of it who, you know, doesn't really get where she is.

How did you cope then with that? Is that quite a big thing for a 10 year old to deal with?

Yes.

How did you cope?

Well, I think my, my mum is, is very, was very strict. Right. So I think, I think we had very clear boundaries.

Right.

About what we did. And I also, I think I also had developed quite people pleasing skills. So I was quite good at being involved.

Right.

And sort of getting on with people because I think I am a people pleaser. That's not as prominent in my personalities as it used to be.

Right.

But it was definitely a thing that I would, I knew how to read my mum and see the kind of reaction and I would make sure that I didn't get the adverse reaction. And I think I probably played that out at school that I was so quite compliant. Yeah. Yes, I'm incredibly compliant.

I went from being quite a robust child who was into everything.

Yeah.

To being much more of a compliant child because I think when my mum came back to the UK, she had had 10 years of servants.

Yeah.

Being out, she didn't work. Yeah. So a good friendship group. Going to the, going to the club, doing that.

When she came back, she had two, two young children who she had to manage. My dad continued to work abroad.

Okay.

So my mum effectively Monday to Friday was a one parent family. She ruled with an iron rod. And you know, and you know, back in those days you were allowed to smack your children.

You were.

Yes, so we were, so we were, we, you know, we were smacked. And if we didn't, if we came out of the, out of the tram lines, so I was compliant.

That must have shaped because if anybody asked me, you know, before we had this conversation, is Suzanne a compliance type of person? I would say no, that's not the Suzanne I know. So obviously that was the, that's learned behavior. Yeah.

That's not my, that's not my personality.

It's not naturally who you are.

No, that was definitely learned behavior. And for a long time that learned behavior continued.

Right.

And it took, you know, till I was much older to understand that that's not actually who I am and to unpick some of that and to develop the personality that is my personality.

So how did that start, how did you start to get a degree of self awareness that actually this isn't really the real me, this is the me I'm having to be.

Yes. For Whatever reason, I think there's an element of a people pleaser in you.

But it was the compliant overlay that I think that was the difficult thing for me to manage because it conflicted with. I'm quite curious. I don't like rules.

That's the Suzanne line.

So I really struggled with walls. Yeah, yeah. You know, and I have done all the way. So most of the jobs I've had have been very creative and I've.

And I've gone into jobs where something needs to be done, something needs to be sorted.

Right.

It's new, new department, new team, new part of the organization. So, you know, when I left university, the job I had was in economic development and I worked on a new training center and it didn't exist.

So it was completely, you know, I had to get the funding. We built it, we then put people in it. We. We created a whole new environment.

Right.

So that I found really exciting. I didn't really find very exciting when I had to run it, I found that less exciting.

But I did find the fact that I had still access to lots of money to create new ideas. I mean, I can still remember somebody walking in and I must have had, I don't know, back in the day, 30 Apple Macs.

Okay.

All in. You know, it was a training center in those days. It was the YTS schemes.

Yeah.

Adult employment training schemes. We were outside of Henry Boots, we were the largest adult and youth training scheme in the country.

This is in Yorkshire.

Doncaster. Doncaster, yeah. And through that then I got involved in economic development. So big capital build projects, land reclamation.

Doncaster clearly is a mining town. So there's lots. There was when, when the pits went, there was lots of land that needed to be cleared and built on. So that, that's.

I spent quite a few years in economic development doing land reclamation projects which were huge. You know, leisure centers, roads, houses, schools, all of those kind of things.

Getting the money in and working with the contractors to develop those. Doncaster Council also owned a lot of land which was unusual. So we were building all sorts of things and that was very exciting.

I was going to say this sounds like the Suzanne that I know. So a self starter, but somebody likes to work and achieve things with people through people.

I think in those days.

Curious likes to learn.

Yes, in those days I probably didn't have to work with a lot of people. I think in those, the team was very small.

Right.

So I had my roles to do and I think I wanted to do a really good job. But then what I learned and what I Did learn there was. You had to take the people with you.

Right. Okay.

And what I did learn very much there was. I was very young, very enthusiastic, being given this quite a lot of responsibility to do something. And I still remember it now.

And it was a long time ago around doing a big conference, and I was. Sat all these. All the people down in the teams and told them how to run a conference. Yeah.

Now I think they wanted to drag me out and, you know, beat me up because they were like, why is she telling us this? We've been doing this for years. And I think at that point I kind of realized that, you know, I don't need to tell them how to suck eggs, actually. I.

They know what to do. All I need to be doing is helping them to do what they're good at.

Right.

I came in with my size, you know, tens going, well, I know what to do. I know how. I've been on a course. I know what to do. And they're looking at me and going, yeah, we don't like her.

Okay.

Go away.

Okay.

And I think it was a really valuable lesson that you need to take the people with you and you need to understand where they're coming from and their skills and their knowledge. And I hadn't really, at that point had any experience of managing people and understanding that everybody comes with a skill set.

Yeah.

And it doesn't all have to come from me.

But did you have fairly good communication skills for your age? Because I think it's one thing realizing that, but you have to have the communication skills to play out in life.

I probably not developed that over a period of time.

Right.

And there was no. There was no training or development programs going on in those days. It was, you know, this is the job. Get on with it, make it what you will.

And I really enjoyed that element of it. But it was some of those things then that you go, okay, that didn't work. What did I do? And that was one of the moments. I still remember it.

I'm telling these people how to run a conference and things, and they're going to. Yeah, we've done this before, you know. Okay, that didn't go well.

No, but you had. You had the awareness to realize it hadn't.

Because a lot of people don't have the awareness, don't see what's right in front of their face, and don't take a step back. And that's a good example of you taking a step back and thinking, do you know what?

Yeah.

No.

And I think that is that is probably. That is something that you do. It doesn't probably come naturally to some people, but it was quite a. Quite a seminal moment.

And then I started to look at my communication skills.

Right.

My skills. And therefore. And became a much more tolerant, but also engaging in terms of understanding where people are coming from.

And then I again learned a lesson afterwards when I was in London with the same thing. I have a real pet hate of a phrase, which is, it's not personal, it's business.

Okay.

And I, I, when we were in. When I worked in London.

Yeah.

Come back to what that looked like. But the end of that working in London was we. We closed the whole business down.

Right.

And we made a lot of people redundant. And I was on the. The side of going through the redundancy. Making people redundant.

Yeah.

I was only 28.

Oh, wow.

I've been on a training course, so. Yeah.

So you knew how to make them redundant.

Yes, because I'd watched a video.

Yeah.

They literally sat me down with a couple of others and went, there's a video. And I remember it being the British Cole video and how to make people redundant. And then off you go.

And hospital pass that way.

It was like, yeah, you do that. Off you go. And. And I think that's when I. That's when it came. It was.

Because they kept saying, it's about the business, it's about the business, about the business.

But then I realized that actually it's not about the business, it's about the people opposite me and the impact it's having on them and their families. And again, that was another moment where I went, this is not the right way to do this. This is not the right language.

exists quite a lot today.

Yes. And I was talking to people and, you know, you're following a script and you're. And I. And. And it's all about the business.

And actually not all about the business, about the people sitting there. And the impact is you've got to do it, but there are different ways of doing things and you've got to follow the law.

So there's a difference between, yes, you've got to follow the law, but then what you layer over the top of that in how you communicate and how you talk to somebody is completely different to the video I just watched about it being, you know, it's all about the business. It's not personal. Of course it personal.

Yeah.

And again, that was another moment. Where you think, okay, this is also not who I am. This is. This is more. I'm, you know, I feel for the people.

I has to be done and I'm not shirking any responsibility for doing it. I've agreed to do it. You know, it's a job I've got, but it's how you deliver it.

So you're 28, you're in London, you've had this experience which has obviously been very formative again in terms of shaping your thought processes. So then what's next? And so you're obviously realizing that, no, I do care about people.

I want to go and achieve things, but I need to make sure I take people with me on the journey. I'm quite clear as I want to learn. So where does Suzanne go from this point?

Yes, because I could have stayed in London and probably that would have been where I should have gone. I actually went back to Doncaster Council.

Okay.

Because they said, we hear, you know, it's not. It made the front pages, the closing of the business.

Oh, did it?

Okay. The broadsheets. So I went back for a little while and then I was headhunted to the Isle of Wight.

Oh, okay. So tell me more.

They. So I was. I was back at Doncaster Council doing head of economic development. You know, there was a lot going on, so it's very busy time.

And then I had a call. I didn't actually. They've actually know where the Isle of Wight was, I'm sad to say. Like, I had to look it up, but it's quite.

It's quite a long way from Doncaster. Not as far as Hong Kong, obviously.

No, but it's quite. Where is that then? Yeah. And it's quite an interesting environment, the Isle of Wight, because it's.

They always say it's like a microcosm of the uk because obviously it's an island.

Yes.

And it's. Some of it's quite wealthy and some of it has. There are some areas of deprivation.

And what they wanted was somebody who had good public sector skills, some financial understanding of big programmes. And I'd worked both Doncaster Council and in London on enormous programmes.

So at that point, most of your work had been in public sector organisations?

Yes, it was in the public sector. Yes, in big projects. So Doncaster Council, our budget, you know, the capital expenditure was about.

Around, well, about 50 million in terms of what we were doing, plus what the public, the private sector was layering over the top in terms of building.

Yeah.

And then in London, we had a budget of 35 million went to the Isle of Wight. The budget was five.

Oh, okay. Bit of difference.

Even I can keep an eye on that. You know, it's not very going from 35 and being part of the team managing the 35 plus again, the extra that came in. And they just needed.

They wanted somebody who could, who understood it.

Yeah.

Who could speak to the government officers around giving it, giving some credibility to what they were doing.

Yeah.

But what they, what they did to me effectively, they effectively stitched me up. They wanted me to make the changes, but gave me no authority to do it and put me. I was a one person department on organizational change.

Oh, okay.

And the rest of the organization sat over there, over here somewhere, just carrying on doing what they were doing.

And I was trying to make some changes because they were losing money and they were told that actually they wouldn't get a renewal of their contract if they didn't do something.

Were you a token gesture?

I was a tick box. Yes. I was a token gesture. Just bring her in. She ticks all the boxes. Put her over there. We don't need to do anything. They like her and we'll carry on.

And nobody, nobody wanted to change. And in fact, it was so the blockers they put up were incredible. It was. That was.

Give me an example. What's the worst excuse?

That was what. It was probably the hardest time. I used to sit in the boardroom. I remember upstick. I mean, I would be crying.

Okay.

It was, I was.

What was Frustration, Frustrated.

They didn't like me. I was called the week. They called me the wicked witch from the North.

Charming.

Probably was. I did. But I worked. You know, I was in there early in the morning. I was in there late at night. Trying to unpick.

Yeah.

And trying to create. And I think that's when I did. I really enjoyed looking at organizational redesign.

Yeah.

And that's kind of probably the first time I'd ever really got. I'd have done it a little bit in London because we had to reshape every now and again the organization.

But I'd never really had control over what that might look like.

No.

I never had kind of been given the opportunity to look at it, but it was a really, really difficult. Isle of Wight is also quite a difficult environment because it's busy during the summer and quiet and unbelievably quiet.

And nobody wants to talk to anybody who's not lived there for the last, you know, 10 generations.

Right.

So making friends on the island's quite difficult. I did commute for a little while back to London. But I thought you can't do this job if you don't actually live here. So I did move.

I mean the first few months I was there I was living in a, you know, with no Airbnb at that point. But like bed and breakfast.

Yeah.

Which is also quite soul destroying because I arrived in October and the Isle of Wights closed in October.

I'm feeling very sorry for you now. So this, this person that loves being around people is on her own. No friends.

I had very few friends. I was single. So that also doesn't go down well in the Isle of Wight. I did make some really good friends.

Yeah.

Eventually. And I. And then that's where I met. Well, actually husband then, because he was. He was lived in Cheltenham. Right.

Was doing a lot of work around the South. The southeast.

Yeah.

And he's a consultant and he was doing IIP and all sorts of different things. And actually John was a person who made me step back and understand myself a bit better, but also help me move the way forward.

And also I then made and helped me understand the role that I needed and the responsibility I needed to get the job done.

And sometimes we need that person, don't we, to help us take that step back and really examine. So what now you look back and what did John help you realise about yourself that at that point you hadn't fully worked out?

I think some of it was the value that you bring.

Right.

But also the fact that if you don't make a stand or you don't articulate what you need and how you might want to do it. Therefore you're responsible for yourself.

Yeah.

You can't expect somebody else to go. Well, you're right. Can I make the changes? Because they don't know if you don't say what needs to be done or you don't articulate that.

So he helped me unpick what needed one. What needed to be done.

Yeah.

And to my role within that. And then crafted something in terms of helping me to move that forward. And that part was I became the deputy chief executive. So they basically.

And I was then responsible for the whole of the organization.

And then you have got the authority.

I then. Yes. Which didn't go down well. But they didn't. Not a lot they could have done about that. So the chief exec was moved.

Not, not, not, not sideways at all. But he was given a much more external viewpoint and I was given the internal organizational redevelopment role.

Right.

Okay. And made deputy chief executive.

Wow.

And that gave Me, the mandate to be able to make the changes, but also what John helped me to do was to start to take some people with me on the journey by helping them to understand why we needed to do it. So rather than me beating, you know, my head against a brick wall, it was the opportunity to tell the story, tell them.

And it wasn't a pretty picture, but it wasn't a disastrous picture if we all kind of work together to do something. And that's when I realized, actually, you know, I can't do this on my own. It's impossible to do it on my own.

Although they wanted me to do it on my own because they stuffed me in a little office somewhere in the back of beyond going, she'd be fine.

Yeah.

So there. That.

Then I think that's when I realized that, you know, that head, heart, hands, conversation, in terms of you, the logic is there, but if you don't take the emotion, you know that. Take people on the emotional journey with you, you can lose them. That's what I had done.

Yeah.

And a crucial thing you said there, I think, because Rich and I talk about this when we run our leadership programs, is that people are very good at communicating what they want people to do, but what they're not as good at, and this is particularly important when you've got massive change that you're trying to manage, is telling them why and being honest about. I don't mean spinning it and telling them a story just to get them to, you know, almost manipulate them in the right direction.

I mean, actually giving them an honest. As you said, maybe. Maybe warts and all, in some cases. This is.

Sorry, that's Harvey the dog in the background just having a little stretch, telling them why we need to do it. And I think that is something that people don't do enough. In my experience in leadership.

No. And that's why I think I learned from John, who. Who helped me to articulate and help me to understand that you can't.

You need to take the people with you.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and you. And you can't. That's not just. That's not about the brain.

No.

And the logic. That's about the emotion that goes with that and how you. How you. How you build that into the conversations that you. That you're having with them.

You can't just be logical about it.

No.

Because it impacts them and that therefore, back to that. It's just business. No, it's not.

No, it's not.

It's about the people, and it's about their emotional welfare and their livelihoods. And when you start to. Because what they were obviously thinking was, we're going to make people redundant. Actually, we didn't make anybody redundant.

We had a few people who actually decided to leave and a few people who, you know, they were. They were retiring. They just took earlier. So we didn't make anybody.

But the fear when I came in and was brought in, so they all buttoned back, you know, but down the hatches.

Yeah. Yeah.

And, you know, shut me off completely because they didn't want me to be making a decision about them. So they. They. Because I could have made them be making them redundant. So I. So when you kind of start to look at the.

The rumors that had been going round about why I had been brought in. I hadn't been brought in at all to make people redundant, actually.

It was more about reorganizing the business so it was more efficient and more effective. But actually, we were growing. Yeah, we took. We got more money. And the negotiations in those days, you would. You.

You basically negotiated the money you got from the regional offices. Yeah, and we got more money because we were more efficient, we were more effective.

The Isle of Wight does actually have some quite high deprivation, so when we. We actually ended up with more money. We need more people.

Yeah.

So the rumors that were going round were completely spurious and set off by a few people who felt threatened by the rock, you know, by what was going on. But actually, when you start to talk to people, they go, oh, okay. Well, she's actually not that bad for a start. And actually we're.

She wants to grow the organization, therefore we can grow with her. That took a while for that to come through.

Yeah. So what I'm interested as well. There's, you know, you said that was. That was possibly the hardest challenge I've ever had in my leadership career.

It was very challenging.

Yeah. You've gone somewhere which is a little bit alien to what you're used to, where people don't really want you there.

You're thrust into this environment where, you know, you've got to make some big changes without initially any autonomy to do that.

And no support.

And no support. So in terms of resilience, because I think one of the things, again, with leadership, you have to be resilient.

What did that whole experience teach you about resilience? Because ultimately you. You ended up being successful, didn't you? And you.

Yeah, with the people. We all did. I mean, I think that was the thing. Everybody. Everybody contributed it to that in the End.

It was a much better environment because having spent, you know, hours sitting in the boardroom crying and then getting my car and driving up the motorway back into London thinking, oh my God, I don't want to go back on a Monday morning to being. To being there. And actually that, you know, those people became really good at what they, you know, as delivering of what we needed to do.

So what was the lesson about resilience? Because.

Well, yeah, I think. I think it's knowing that the journey you're on is the right one.

Okay.

So it's that understanding of the why.

Yeah.

And being really, really not. Not sure because we did. Wasn't one route.

Yeah.

You know, we did move around which. How we would get there.

Yeah.

The actual end point, I was really sure that that's where we were going and what we wanted to do. And whilst. And then what I did understand was that people could contribute to that.

Yeah.

And I think the resilience became bringing people on the journey because the more people that you have, you supporting you and them, the stronger you feel. So to me, it just reinforced that you need to take the people with you.

Yeah.

Because if you don't take the people with you, it's a really hard slog.

Well. And you probably wouldn't have been successful if you had. No, no.

It would have taken far too long. The government, you know, we would have probably lost a contract.

Yeah.

So I think it was the resilience came in in the force of numbers in terms of the support I then got from people going, okay, actually, we've kind of got it now. We kind of know where we're going and we can contribute to that. Now we know you're not going to, you know, decimate the business and sack us all.

Yeah.

We're kind of with you.

Fair enough.

And you know, and it turned out it was quite, you know, it was a good place to work.

So then what happened? So then the next stage of Suzanne's journey. So you were successful in the Isle of Wight. You managed to turn that situation round.

Yeah. And I enjoyed the time on the Isle of Wight because it's a different environment to be. I then went into. Into consultancy.

Right.

So I thought that there was the opportunity to. The skills that I had learned.

Yeah.

Over both being in London. Multiple projects on the Isle of Wight. Organizational change.

Yeah.

I went in consultancy for a few years, mainly in aerospace and defense.

Okay.

But then we developed. We merged with an IT company so that we had. We were doing projects with quite large corporate.

So when you Say consultancy, what project management type of stuff?

Well, we started off as an organizational change and leadership.

Right.

So company. So we had a quite a large premises in Cheltenham. So that's how I came to Cheltenham.

Yeah.

And we would do lots of different training and development programs in house, also in people's premises. So we would work. We worked with Eagle. Yeah. Eagle Star at the time.

Yeah.

Elsevier, national association of House Builders. Persia were one of our biggest customers.

Okay.

So it was lots of corporates but it was the organization.

So we did lots of organizational change, training and development and then we merged with an I T company because actually getting people to change and this was way back in the early days of,

you know, what sort of time period

Okay.

Yeah. So when people were just doing websites were kind of brochureware.

Yes.

But then they were moving more away from that into integration. So we were, we were helping people with their integration processes.

So my role in those days was got a bunch of very talented developers and I didn't, wouldn't let them speak to anybody. I'm sure they could string. You know, they didn't really want to speak to anybody actually either.

So interpreting the brief, working with the customer, understanding what they want and then working, getting the project. Yeah, yeah, Developed and we did that for quite a few years.

Yeah.

Until my daughter Francesca was then was maybe three or four and it was how that impacted on her because we had, you know, clients all over the place.

They say you must be here everywhere.

It was like, who's picking Francesca up? How's that going to work? What's going to happen? And it was that point thought, well actually this is not sustainable in terms of family life.

Yeah.

So therefore then there was a change in terms of what my role. Then I went to what was then business link.

Oh yeah, I remember Business link.

Yes. Well, I had set up four business links in London.

Yeah.

Back in the day. And the Isle of Wight had a business link which I was on the board of as well. So. So I went, oh, I. I'll go work there then.

Yeah, I know that. Yeah.

I want to. I don't want to manage anybody. I don't want to be responsible for any budgets. I don't want any of that. I just go and talk to some businesses.

Fair enough.

And they went, yeah, you could do that, could be a business advisor. I can do that, I'll do that, thanks.

Okay.

And I can go at 9 o' clock and I leave at 5 o'. Clock.

Yeah.

And I can go and pick Francesca up from school if I wanted to, and do a bit of, you know, and then work in later. And they were very flexible.

So that, to be fair, they were absolutely superb because they gave me the flexibility to work how I wanted to work around my family life. And I, you know, and I appreciated that.

Yeah.

And I worked really hard. I really enjoyed it. But then it was actually, would you like to do this? And the first rock.

First person I went to see, and I'm seeing her for a drink next week or the week after. First person I actually went to see was Diane Savery.

Yeah.

When she was the COO of Superdry.

Okay.

And they said, you go and see her. I said, I've only been here a week. I don't even know what you do. No, you know more, you know more what she does than we do. You go and see her.

We don't know what she wants. And so I got to know Diane when they were doing with all the super dry and we're. That was a long time ago. And I say, I'm seeing her next week.

And we've been, you know, connected ever since in that sense. But she was the first. I went, well, if this is the caliber of businesses that we're going to be looking at in Gloucestershire, that's amazing.

Always the case. But it was a good start.

So you were acting as a mentor, as a bit of a guide?

Not so much as a mentor. She didn't really need. She just needed. They were going through some. Some changes and what she wanted was some people who could help her do that.

So our role was to try and understand what that was and then try and find the right people to help her.

Right, okay.

Do what she wanted to do.

Yeah.

So. And that was great because. And then, you know, as things go, you then take on other job, other roles and responsibilities and then we.

And then we merge three business links together into Business West.

Yes.

So I was on part of that group that brought the three and then we merged those to become Business West. When the business links went, Business west still had large contracts to deliver other things. So I stayed with Business west and we developed.

So we ran the business in contract until the end, but we had lots of other contracts which we ran and they were incredible. They were so, you know, they were really good. They allowed me to do, to work in a style that suited me.

There was, you know, they didn't put any barriers. It was, you know, you do what you need to do we trust you? Yeah, you'll deliver what we. What we need.

And I think I did do that, but they also gave me what I needed, which was some freedom to be creative as well, because I did a lot of the new projects, but also

allowed to you to use your curiosity, to use your people skills, all the things that you're naturally good at or I've developed skills in. Yeah, it sounds like a role that's ideally suited.

It was, and it was great. And it was, you know, we had new. It was another one of those where there was new things to be done, new projects to be created, new teams to.

And there was always money coming from government going, well, if we gave you this, what would you do with it? I'm going, we could do this.

So it was very creative in terms of coming up with ideas about how you could do business support better, how you could have teams doing different things. And I also, while I was there, we worked on the Beacon project.

So that was working with significant companies of significant importance in the Southwest, which we worked with the likes of Superdry, but with Mulberry, with Elizabeth Shaw for the Chocolate Bar, and lots of other organizations who we would bring together. And they would talk to each other about how they think, their challenges, they would support each other.

And that was one of the things that came out for Circle to success,

I was going to say. So you're in this role which is ideally suited to your skill set.

It gives you an amazing opportunity to look at all sorts of different types of businesses, understand what they need. So how does C2S get born? Where does that leap go from? Yes, at this stage, you've been employed most of your life working for other people.

Yeah, the. The training company we had, I was a director of. So we sold that. So. But yes, you're right. And I. But that I hadn't started that business.

I came into that business. Right. So as part of the role I had, we had the Gloucestershire Chamber of Commerce, which we bought.

Business west is a regional chamber and we reorganized the board and on that board was one of our patrons was Gloucester Rugby.

Okay.

And that's how I met Angela.

Right.

So we did quite a bit of work with Gloucester Rugby and Angela and I were doing things together. We're going, oh, this, that works well. And we work really well together. Yeah, the ideas spark. We go, we could create this and why don't we do that?

And we spent, you know, quite considerable amounts of time together looking at one of the things that we could do. Angela was working with Lots of different businesses about how they could grow, how Gloucester Ruggie could help them.

Yeah.

So she had the same kind of ideas about, you know, helping businesses to grow. I was doing it from a slightly different angle. Yeah.

But we were both working with businesses to try and help them to be better, to grow, grow their people. Angela was all about, you know, the brand, how can you get the brand out there, how Gloucester Rugby help you do?

I was looking at strategic planning with organizations. How do you grow? How do you get your people develop?

So we were thinking, you know, looking at, well, thinking, well, there must be things we could do together.

Yeah.

Because we'd worked together for maybe about two years on different projects, different things we were doing. We did quite a bit with Gloucester Rugby at the time, and we were looking at different things that we could do.

And it came, you know, within Business West. It was either a good time to leave or I would have been there a long time.

Yeah.

So it came a point where it was like. And we were moving everything back to Bristol. So I was going back to Bristol and actually I didn't mind. I quite like working there.

But it was a good time to make the change because it was going to be a new challenge, something different, or I could take a completely different challenge. And that's when we decided it was a good time to leave and do something else. And the something else was circle to success.

And it was a good time for Angela to do that as well as well.

Okay. And I mean, I know you and I have talked about this before, but. And I know you're a big fan of people like Simon Sinek.

Yes.

But by this point in your career, had you developed this much stronger sense of purpose and, you know, your. Why, for want of a better word, had you really crystallized that at this point or is that still emerging?

I think that was still emerging. I think. I think it's all. But there was a.

There's a strand that had been going, going through around sort of that helping organizations and being able and looking at how. How organizations could grow and develop and how you take the people and how you bring all of those together.

So I think over maybe the 10 years previous that Business West, I had teams and different parts of the organization, you know, so it was all.

It was all around, not just the external affirmation of that in terms of working with organizations, but internally in terms of how you manage the teams, how you manage. You know, I think we. At one point, you know, we have 400 people within business west. So it's quite a big organization at that point.

And it was that how you get those teams on board, the vision that you have for the. For the organization, as well as working with others. So I think it was there. It probably wasn't crystallized in terms of an articulated.

Well, but I think there was the strand around. And what I do like is challenge.

Right, okay.

And I'm not really good at the mundane. I'm not really good at an office job, and nobody would probably. Nobody would employ me to do that.

I'm saying nothing.

So I do like. I do like change and I don't like. And I'm better when forced. I work much, much better under pressure.

Oh, dear.

I'm not great at starting it here because it's got to be done in six months. I need to start it about 10 minutes before it needs to be delivered. Otherwise I can't. I mean, I try. I put things in my diaries, go, well, I'll do it.

That. Do that now and it'll be done. Then I go, yeah, I've got to do this first. And then. And then I have to do. But I work much better under pressure.

Okay.

I know that about myself.

Yeah.

My brain clicks in. It fires if I have to do it over here, and it's not till over there. This is a bit. The bit over here is a bit mundane and a bit dull.

Whereas if I put a bit of pressure on myself, the creativity comes out.

So at this point, you started to see to it. Did you have a really clear picture of what you wanted Seatos to be, or is it just, let's just start it and see where we go?

No, I think. I think we knew. We took the essence out of the boardrooms, which were all around bringing people together. Together to help each other.

So right here, learning. So, yeah, that was the essence that, you know. And I had learned that when I.

When I worked on the Isle of Wight, I definitely could not have done what I had done without the help of people, other people. I didn't have the skills, the knowledge or the aptitude or all of those things. Yeah, in. In enough to be able to do, you know, to do that on my own.

What I.

And you met John, who gave you the.

He was masterful in terms of helping. But I also then went out, but I spent a lot of time talking to other people, right, about what they had done in their organizations.

And because of the role I had, that was an easy thing for me to do for that. But what I did realize then is the amount of things you can learn from other people.

Yes.

So I spent a lot of time chewing the fat with lots of different business owners and directors of different companies trying to understand. And they got benefit. And then what I found out is they got as much benefit out of the conversation as I was learning.

They were also learning because they were articulating some of the things and they were going, oh, actually, that's not right. And actually, now I've said that out loud, it's not right. So what I learned there was taking the time to learn from others is really important.

And that you don't have to have all the answers. And circles right back to what we said earlier is about asking better questions. You don't have to have all the answers, but you have to be curious.

You have to be asking questions and looking at what's going on. But, you know, you need to surround yourself with people, better people than you are. I know.

And I ran a strategic development team at Business west and I packed it full of the brightest people I could find. It was like managing and herding cats. But they were outstanding. They were. They were really good at what they did.

So you weren't afraid of managing up.

No.

People that might be a bit. A bit challenging to manage?

They were very challenging. I would say they were. But. No, but they. But I wanted the very best.

Yes.

And that wasn't about me being better than they were, actually. I wanted them to be better at what they did. And it was just about managing.

Yeah.

Managing them and what. So some of those things I learned about taking time out, learning from others.

I learned during those times that I learned a lot on the Isle of Wight by talking to other people.

Yeah.

And I. And I realized that that is one of the things. And I. And I like learning.

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

And I don't. And I don't. There are different ways of doing that, you know, talking, reading, looking. But I find much more.

I get much more by talking to somebody about what they're doing than I do about. But I love a good book and I'm a big fan of John Cotter in his Eight Steps and things like that. So I really do like a. A process.

Yeah.

Theory.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which you can take things out, but I do like the fact that you can, you know, you. What you get from talking to other people who've done. Who've done those things.

Yeah. It's interesting because, I mean, obviously, transparency for anybody listening, but Zentano have been a member of C2S for many, many years.

Yes.

And One of the things. And people start saying to me, what is it? Is it like a networking club or. I said, well, no, it's not. I mean, you do network as part of it.

Yeah.

But actually, for me, that's not what it's about. It's about meeting people, as you said, from completely different backgrounds to me, do different jobs. To me roles.

To me, a lot of them have got a similar problem, similar challenges. Yeah.

But the beauty, I think, of the C2S events that I've been to over the years is exactly that, is learning from other people, having conversations. Sometimes you help them, sometimes they help you. You did one this week that I came to on how AI is going to change the face of marketing. Brilliant.

It was really interesting and it got me thinking about how that applies to what we're doing. Because I wouldn't have the expertise that Dan, who presented that day.

No, no, that is. It's about using those, Using the right people with the right expertise, and it's. How do you find them?

So that's part of our role, is curating that opportunity for people so that they can find the expertise and the knowledge or what they're looking for. Because we can't all have all. We can't know everything, can we? So it's.

So one of our roles is about pulling all that together so that people can see the art of the possible. And then you build relationships, and through relationships, then work comes, opportunities come, and it's amazing what that looks like.

So how do we get this message?

Because you all know as well as I do, and it's the thing that frustrates me a lot when we're doing our leadership development is there's not enough people out there taking the step back, taking time to just think, think, reflect, maybe, as you said, go and connecting with a bunch of other people, that might be to help you. There's not enough of that. People are just caught up in this endless.

Yes, they're on the hamster wheel.

On the hamster wheel. The chaos is going on around them. They probably feel a bit overloaded, if the truth be known. They might not admit it, but they probably do.

A lot of them. Their confidence will be sapped by that. They won't admit it, but it probably is true. How do we start to get leaders?

Because this is a leadership podcast, obviously, to think about stepping back, having a bit of reflection time. It's not a waste of time to go and meet other people and learn about their business or take a bit

of time out to, like, you did you know? It's, it's, you know, you're busy. It's difficult to take the time out.

But you, but even if you learn a little bit there, but what you do is you allow your mind to expand. You kind of take a bit of a step back, and it might not just be about what you're.

What's in front of you, but it's about allowing your mind to go to make those connections because it's stimulated. Well, you don't get that if you're head down, you know, just trying to unpick something.

All the time in work, you have to put your head above the parapet and you have to open up your mind and maybe stimulate it in a different way, because otherwise, if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and that is, you know, and we know that is very true. What is whatever that saying that the definition of madness. Madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome.

But I think, I think my mindset, I'm probably very similar to your mindset in many ways. I am naturally curious. I love learning, but I don't ever think of certainly coming to the events that you put on like the one we did this week.

I don't see that as, have I got time to do this? Or is this. Have I got some operational priorities that are more important? For me, that type of learning is as important as anything else.

But that's your. But that's the space you're in. Yeah, I mean, and you're right. We. It's, it's, it's try.

It's getting other people who are more operationally or sitting in their business who kind of don't see how that will help them. And that's quite difficult. So, I mean, storytelling is good in terms of what people say.

The conversation you and I just had about you going and thinking, well, actually there are things I learned you can apply to your business.

That's really important in terms of getting advocates to, you know, and we've had people with, well, you've been a member for a long time as well, but we've had people with us for the last 13 years who bring, you know, different people through the organization. And there's that constant learning. But there, but it is only you. You can take the horse to water, you can't make it drink.

And there is a finite number of people, I think, that fit into the kind of organizations that we want to work with. Who appreciate and get the value. So, I mean, I'm not one for flogging a dead horse.

No.

So, you know, there are. But I do think there are plenty of people out there who, if they, once they get it, they get it.

Yes.

And they just need the opportunity to kind of come along to something and go, okay, I, I get that.

Yeah.

And, and you know, and I think now, more importantly, it is chaotic out there and there are lots of solutions. AI is going to play massive part in how the world of work is going to look. So where do you get that information from?

Exactly.

Get that opportunity to hear what other people are doing or what the experts are saying. So I think there is more opportunity to, for organ, for people in organizations to come along and experience it.

And then I think once they've got it, they're in.

I think part of the problem may be in the modern world is there's almost too much information. I mean, there's so much access to information.

But how you discern between what's just a load of rubbish, what actually has got real credibility, what might be right for me, I mean, it might still have credibility, but it's not the right thing to me to try and sort through all of that when you've got a busy day job. It is exhausting. Yeah.

And we're already exhausted with everything else that is bombarded at us.

So, yeah, if we can, if we can help clarify some of those things and if we can help, you know, people just to put things on the table so it's, it's, it's easier to digest and understand and they know if they come to one of our events, it's actually going to be. The quality is going to be really good and the conversation with the people in the room is going to be really good.

So they can't really lose on that basis. And they will, they will go away with something that they can implement or they've got the opportunity to come and talk to those people.

We can't really predict what the next three years is going to look like, let alone the next 10. What are your sort of top tips for what do leaders need to do most?

What do they need to give themselves to navigate this next phase of Business life based on what you've learned.

Yeah, I think it is. What we've been talking about is time is. It is, you know, it is really busy and we're all working long hours.

So I do think, I do think taking time out is not a luxury. It is part of what we need to be doing within the business, because it is. You can get overwhelmed, you get stuck in the day job.

You don't have the time to, you know, when I talked about, you know, let your mind just think differently or even just put things together in your mind in a way that is different to the way that when you're head down trying to do something. Yeah, it's. And it. And it. And it takes much longer. You know, you can refresh your mind and your spirit by doing something else.

So I think that, you know, authentic leadership, I think, you know, organize. You don't have to be something, something else. I think that's quite exhausting.

Yeah.

People, I think leaders are. Have been painted as these, you know, all inspiring. You know, we're not all Steve Jobs. I don't think anybody would want to be Steve Jobs.

It wasn't particular, you know, anyway. But I think there's a picture of what a leader needs to look like, and I think that you don't need to look like that. You need to look like yourself.

Yeah, yeah.

And you need to find what that looks like and you need to be authentic about that. Otherwise you're going to exhaust yourself trying to be something that you're not quite that. And people pick up on that anyway.

They do.

Yeah. And I see that people try to model themselves on something. Why are you modeling yourself on somebody who's not.

You just find those things that, that you know, are true to you and how you, how you want to behave and, and look at how you develop those kind of things as opposed to try and develop skills that somebody else has got.

Do you think we've, I mean, Rich and I have talked about this before in podcasts. We, we seem to have celebrated certainly in this country, may, maybe in the western world a lot over the last 20, 30, 40 years of.

You've got to be this charismatic leader. You've got to be this sort of larger than life character, you know, outwardly extremely confident. I'm not sure that's actually a good thing.

Do you think the tide is changing? Do we, do we now recognize enough that you can lead in a completely different way to that and it's not everybody's style to do it.

Well, it isn't everybody's style, I think it's practically nobody's style. You know, there are very few people, I think, who've got that kind of charisma and. Or confidence.

And confidence can tip over to arrogance quite quickly.

Quickly. Yeah.

Yeah. So there is a difference between that. So I do think most, mostly people are not like that.

No.

You know, they're quiet. You know, they're unassuming in their leadership roles. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

No, not at all.

And you don't have to be the jazzy hands. No. You do have to have some kind of something that sits deep in with you that people can see that you. That you do believe in. I think more.

Much more important is the values and beliefs that you have and that you carry forward, as opposed to the jazzy hands and the fact that you can stand on a podium and command an audience of, you know, however many people you've got.

I think if you've got some authenticity and you've got some passion and belief, and I think it's the belief that then carries you through and that people will follow you because they believe you.

Yeah.

As opposed to, you know, pulling them along with your charisma. Yeah. As they get, you know, and we've seen where that. Well, we can see where that's going to take you.

It doesn't always get you in the right place. No, no.

It doesn't take. It doesn't always take the people in the. In the place that they want to be either.

So I do think that much more reflective, much more quiet, authentic with purpose, with values is, you know, to me, that describes a leader.

Yeah.

Rather than, you know, somebody who is. Somebody would say, you know, they're charismatic for whatever. Whatever that means.

So I guess your advice would be, you know, be true to who you are. If you don't really understand who you are, go and help.

Yeah.

Get some help. Find out who you are. Be confident about who you are.

Be comfortable in your own skin.

Yeah.

And it's taken me a long time to be able to do that, you know, to. To feel that this is. This is. Yeah, fine.

Yeah.

And if this is me, I'm still learning. You know, there's no, you know, that's not to say that anybody is a finished product, because we're not.

But it's being comfortable with who you are, what you do know, what you don't know, what you do like, what you don't like, but not abrogating responsibility because just because you don't like doing it. Or you. And not using the word can't, you know, it's, it's. And you don't. And you can choose not to do things.

You can. Yeah.

You know, you don't have to rise to all of the challenges, people. You can choose not to, but not because you're frightened.

You know, there's, you know, you can do things even when you're scared or frightened, because that's challenging and it can. Can lead you to somewhere more exciting. So it's, it's about managing all of those and that's quite a. You know, there's a lot to be managed there.

There is, yeah.

You know, to. As well as doing everything else that you need to do.

You know, you've got your family life, your personal life, your work life, all of those things and they're all, you know, it's all quite complicated and, you know, it's quite, it's quite a tough environment.

It is a tough environment. And I think that's why we need organizations like C2S now. C2S, you rebranded end of last year, C2S to growth consultancy.

So what's the future for C2S? Where do you see you taking your business and how it's going to help the businesses that you engage with?

Well, I think there are many more we talked about, you know, how do you find those organizations that are the right fit? And I think there are for us, more organizations out there who are the right fit for us. Not everybody is and we accept that they don't.

Not everybody gets. Gets that or wants to be part of that. Well, that's fine because it doesn't suit everybody. But we think there are more organizations out there.

You know, we have the flagship events which we can grow. So the awards, educational outreach, which we're really proud of, the way that they've grown.

So more of those, you know, growing those, but also making sure that we're still delivering and because we talked about. Right, circle back around to agile. We're agile, you know, because we're small. Yeah, we talk to a lot of people, we spend a lot of time.

So hopefully we do understand some of the things that are now affecting businesses, not what was affecting them 18 months or two years ago.

We need to be really, not necessarily on the cutting edge, but definitely on that curve to make sure that we're helping bringing organizations so they don't get left behind. And that's exciting for us. I think with AI and all of those things, it's really exciting.

And what's the right organization for you, somebody who's open minded, wants to learn. How would you characterise a typical ideal C2S client?

I think it depends on what looking to achieve because slightly a corporate is a slightly different.

Yes.

Animal to, you know, own a managed business. Who's, who's looking to develop the skills within the organization may be looking at how do they grow the organization to the next stage.

You know, you hit a plateau. How do you break through that? What does that look like? How can I take the team with me? How can I find new markets? How can I find new people?

So back to that comment.

You know, curious people who are not stuck in their ways but going, you know, we could do things differently, not necessarily better, but maybe differently or change the way we're doing things. So it's somebody who asks questions, somebody who's interested in other people as well.

Yeah.

And somebody who has that, you know, is ethical and has some values about where they want to go and how they treat their people. We don't want to work with people who, you know, are not treating their people in the right way.

No, no.

You know, there are some value values matching that we find really important because it's hard for us to help somebody if we don't actually think they're actually a really good organization or that they're doing the right things. And no, that's not about being perfect.

No, no, no.

It's about having the right mindset.

It is about mindset. Yeah. I mean Rich and I have had this conversation like we, we're not trying to help out, to help everyone.

No.

Because not everyone will want to help from us anyway. But it is about. Yeah. Are they the right type of organization? Do they think in the, in the way that they.

Yeah. And then. Because then otherwise you're beating yourself head against a brick wall and they're not going to change. Yeah.

And you know, we know so many organizational change projects fail because you don't have the right mindset. You don't take the people with you and you don't put the right structures and processes in place to allow it to be sustainable anyway.

So, so for us it's very exciting. You know, it's a really exciting time to be working with businesses because I think, you know, it has been very challenging. But I do think.

Well, not just recently, but Covid, there's been a lot of years, isn't there?

There has. And a lot of things that people have adapted to. And that whole thing about agile, I think we, you know, most organizations.

Because Covid made Us have to turn on a penny to do something completely different.

It certainly did, yeah.

For everybody, that was, you know, that was massive. The whole, you know, half the world had to do something different.

Yeah.

And I think that has been a change that stayed with organizations.

Yeah, brilliant. Okay.

Well, personally, I'd like to thank you for being C2s, because it's certainly been a help to us and I've got huge value over the years from coming to the events that you do. I also love the fact, I mean, you talked about educational outreach. So for anybody listening, you've done this, what, for two years in a row now?

Yeah, it's two years.

So it's a massive event at Cheltenham Racecourse where you invite huge numbers of young people. Young people, yes.

To experience what the opportunity would be

to loads of businesses for them to talk to. I mean, we need to think about developing the leaders of the future. Yeah. And I think those types of events, for me are amazingly important.

I know we were involved heavily last year in doing that and it is.

It's showing the art of the possible, isn't it, what the opportunities are, whether they go to university, do apprenticeships, whatever, training, development. But there are organizations out there and it's just, you know, if.

If they've got no experiences, how do they know that in manufacturing, it looks like this nowadays? And it's very exciting. And they can do. You know, it's heavily.

It led, it's technology, you know, the breadth of the stuff you can do in the nhs, all of those things. If they don't. If they can't see it, how can they. How can they let their mind think, actually, I could do that.

Yeah.

And I think it's the same. You know, it's. It's a reciprocal arrangement, though, isn't it?

Because, you know, as much as you've said you get out of C2s, you've put an awful lot back into it.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

You've helped a lot of people and a lot of organizations unpick their own mental models of what they've been doing.

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, and shone a light into some of the things that they could do differently and help them to see what that might look like and give them those tastes and experiences that they wouldn't have had if you hadn't have been, you know, willing to give up your time and your expertise to help them see what that might look like for them.

I'm a great. And I know you probably agree with me on this. I'm a great believer in the Principle of reciprocity.

Yes.

The more you give to others, funnily enough, often the more you get back.

Yes. Yeah.

And I'm not worried about, you know, if I give something and someone doesn't give it back. That's not what it's about, is that it's in my psyche.

Yes.

Yeah. If I could. And I think it's in your psyche as well. Yeah.

If we can help other people in whatever way we can and whatever help they want that in some way or other will come back to us.

No, I absolutely believe that. I think the universe. Absolutely.

With the positive vibes and the positive messages you put out there, and if you can help someone, you know, why would you not?

Exactly.

And then it doesn't matter for me whether they give, that something comes back in a different format.

Yeah.

And I'm a great believer in that. So always, you know, you go giving.

Go give. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Go giver. Absolutely.

So just to sort of summarize, Suzanne, I think for any leader listening to this, you know, be curious, be open minded, don't be afraid to admit that you don't have all the answers. Go and speak to people that can help you see the world from a different perspective, maybe the one you're struggling to see it from.

Take people on a journey with you. You can't do it on your own.

No, you definitely can't do it on your own.

And don't be afraid to get people that might be a bit difficult to manage around you because they could be the ones that you really, really need. So, yeah, thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing what I think is a really rich journey.

So from, you know, Hong Kong all the way through to now, C2S. I think your dedication in helping connect people, educate leaders, your commitment to things like educational outreach, which is.

I know it's a huge amount of work for you every year, but it prepares young people for the world of work. And we, God knows we need to do a lot more of that.

Yes, we do. And if you can just do one small bit, then yes.

Yeah. And I know you do the award, so you showcase every year successful fourth thinking organizations that are members of C2F.

I think everything that you do there is a fantastic opportunity. And, okay, not everybody in the UK can live in Gloucestershire or Worcestershire and be part of shame. And shame.

But, I mean, there are other organizations out there that do probably not as well as you, but similar things.

There are supermarkets available.

Exactly. Yeah. But we're just lucky that we live in your orbit. But no, thank you so much for sharing your journey today.

I hope people listening to this have got some nuggets and some insights. I certainly have, and I've had that for many years engaging with your business. But, yeah, let's hope we can pick our way through the chaos.

Yes. No, thank you very much. Thank you, Dave, for inviting me.

Yeah, you're welcome.