The discussion dives deep into the mystical afterlife of Middle Earth, exploring whether dwarves, elves, and men share the same fate after their epic adventures. For a very special bonus segment following our exclusive episode on our website, Will Rose, joined by our favortie Tolkien Heads Tripp Fuller and Nick Polk, tackle the intriguing questions about what lies beyond the Grey Havens, and which dwarven clan they’d prefer to join. With a blend of thoughtful insights and witty banter, they navigate the complexities of Tolkien's universe, debating the afterlife and the potential for dwarven reincarnation while keeping it light-hearted and fun. This bonus segment, a special treat for the audience, is part of the Faces Behind Us series, designed to entice new listeners to join the Systematic Geekology community as official members on our website. So, grab your favorite drink and settle in for a whimsical journey through the realms of Tolkien's creations!

Gather 'round, fellow geekologists, because this podcast episode gets down and dirty with the nitty-gritty of Tolkien lore, diving into the afterlives of Middle-Earth's most beloved races: dwarves, elves, and men. Will Rose leads the charge with his trusty Tolkien heads, Tripp Fuller and Nick Polk, as they tackle some juicy bonus questions that any true Tolkien fan would be itching to dive into. First up on the agenda is the question of what happens to these races after the grand saga of the Lord of the Rings wraps up. Do they all end up in the same afterlife, or do they take separate paths? Nick offers a hot take, suggesting that since these characters intertwined their fates in life, why wouldn't they share the afterlife too? It's a thought-provoking discussion that weaves in both the philosophical and the theological, as they draw parallels to C.S. Lewis's musings on pets in heaven, creating a delightful blend of humor and insight.

Then, the trio transitions to explore the fate of the dwarves post-Rings. Tripp, with his usual charismatic flair, spins a narrative about Gimli's adventures in the glittering caves—a hidden treasure of Middle-Earth that becomes a Dwarven paradise. They imagine a reality show where Gimli leads the charge in transforming these caves into a dwarven resort, complete with all the bling and glory worthy of Durin's folk. It’s not just a whimsical idea but also a testimony to the rich tapestry of relationships and interactions between these races, showcasing how the camaraderie forged in battle translates into a shared legacy of creation and beauty. The banter flows freely, with plenty of laughs and clever remarks, as they speculate on the dwarves’ role in rebuilding the world after the darkness of Sauron fades.

As the bonus segment winds down, Will, Tripp, and Nick engage in a light-hearted debate over what makes a great dwarven realm to visit, with the glittering caves taking center stage. The imagery is vivid as they discuss the potential for these caverns to not only be stunning but also a cultural hub for dwarves looking to kick back and share stories of their legendary past. Their enthusiasm is infectious, and listeners are left feeling like they’ve just sat in on a lively pub discussion full of flair, insights, and a touch of nostalgia for the world Tolkien created. If there's one takeaway from this episode, it's that the connections formed in Middle-Earth resonate deeply beyond the pages of books, inviting fans to imagine a shared afterlife where friendship and legacy continue to thrive.

Takeaways:

1. Will, Tripp, and Nick dive into the afterlife of Middle Earth, raising speculative questions about where dwarves, elves, and men end up post-LOTR.
2. The trio engages in a light-hearted debate about which dwarven clan they would choose to join, revealing their personal preferences and humorous insights.
3. They explore the concept of whether the different races in Tolkien's world share the same afterlife, hinting at deeper connections forged through their adventures.
4. The conversation flows into the idea that Gimli's friendship with Legolas symbolizes unity among races, even extending into the afterlife, which is a sweet thought.
5. Tripp shares his theory that dwarves, particularly through Durin's lineage, might play a significant role in the afterlife, becoming master builders in the new creation.
6. The episode wraps up with some witty banter, leaving listeners with a sense of community and a desire to explore more of Tolkien's lore together.

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Check out this year's annual theme, "The Faces Behind Us":

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Listen to all of our episodes on Middle Earth:

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Listen to other episodes with great guests like Tripp and Nick:

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Systematic Geekology

Our show focuses around our favorite fandoms that we discuss from a Christian perspective. We do not try to put Jesus into all our favorite stories, but rather we try to ask the questions the IPs are asking, then addressing those questions from our perspective. We are not all ordained, but we are the Priests to the Geeks, in the sense that we try to serve as mediators between the cultures around our favorite fandoms and our faith communities.

Hello, fellow geekologists. Welcome to other episode of Systematic Geekology. And this is a bonus episode here on the main feed within our series of the Faces behind us.

I have a couple Tolkien heads with me, Nick Polk, Tripp Fuller, and we did a whole like almost an hour talking about the, the legacy and the family tree of Duran and the Faces behind us. And we're doing this backwards. It's like the upside down we, the that conversation is happening way for on.

On our, our Fourth world site that you can see and our show notes. You can hop over there and listen as a subscriber. You can go to Spotify and you can find that there, and it has a little lock on it.

You can unlock it by being even a free subscriber.

But now we're doing the bonus question here on the main feed, and we have a couple bonus questions for those who like to geek out on the Lord of the Rings, the Hobbit, all things Tolkien. Well, I have some experts here with me, and we're going to answer some bonus questions just to kind of play around with it. You know, geekdom as play.

And that's, that's what us geeks do. We sit around, we have drinks, we have cigars and, and smoke our pipes and geek out on, on Tolkien. So that's, that's what we're gonna do right now.

We have three questions. That's what we're doing, that we're gonna go around the horn and we're gonna, we're gonna ask these, these questions.

But will, Will, Will. Bo Baggins. We just need everyone listening now, because a lot of these people are not even members yet.

That's right. Okay, do, do, do your marketing spiel there.

No, no, I just want everyone to know the Systematic Ecology podcast.

Like, just imagine trying to coordinate schedules with like 40 different people that all have different nerd kingdoms that they're into, and then hooking it with themes and then bringing all these people together and then inviting your friends on a regular basis to create podcasts where if you just hop in and you're even mildly interested in it, all of a sudden you get the wisdom of multiple friends who are now, like, nerding out with deep dive energy. I'm just saying, you know what, you know what you should do right now?

You should go ahead and become a member of Systematic Ecology and you will have hours of enjoyment that you didn't even know are there.

Don't you, like, sit there and say to yourself, you know how many times I'm sitting here bored and I would be really, really fulfilled for a significant conversation with some nerdy goodness with some fellow geeks. It already exists and you can have access to it. And Josh wants to coordinate all these schedules and calendars. It's crazy.

Like, you should tell them thank you. That, you know, the best way to say thank you is to become a member. And you can be a member like me. I donate every month.

You can donate every month and then you can have some. A lot of fun.

Because one, I didn't know that we were recording a members only podcast when I spent a lot of time preparing for a conversation on Durin. And I feel like you should go listen to it. And it was a lot of fun.

Yeah, I'm not going to say any of this stuff I said then right now, despite the fact that you don't get to listen to it unless you become a member. So you should go be a member right now. And Wilbo Baggins, if someone becomes a member when they're listening to this, you should tell me.

I'll give them a discount code for Theology Beer Camp. That's what I'll do. This is the lure. I'm giving the lure. How much does it cost to be a member for. For a year?

Um, yeah. Oh, you know, there are free subscribers. There are tiers. You could be like, you can tear it up. You like, you could do like free. You do 5, 10, 25.

You could become a wizard, like, like our friend Nick. And yeah, yeah, you can. You can tear it up. And I think it is like, this isn't just like, right? This isn't something that just like happens.

Out of the blue.

Like, there's a lot of the work that goes into this. And so to go and be a subscriber and, and do that, then, yeah,.

You're making it all well, then I'll give you. I'll give you a code, but you have to remind me because I might have been enjoying. Because we're talking about dwarves.

I'm like Gimli trying to out drink an elf. Which doesn't go well. I'm just saying I'll send you code for any of your members and. Or new members to get 50 off for theology Beer Camp. If.

So this is a lure to join. Oh, yeah, I'm just trying to.

I'm just trying to do like, I want Joshua to start outsourcing editing so I'm not told to go short when I'm talking about Doran. Like, oh, Trip, I have to edit these all myself. You can't talk for two Hours with Nick about Doran and I'm like, why?

I have a 21 page outline of what I wanted to talk about. So just saying there's, there's Tripp sales pitch and love it.

Trip, thanks man. Thanks for, thanks for that. And yeah, theology beer camp. We're part of the pop God stage. We're part of the geek stage. We're going to keep doing it.

And you, you know, because some of the conversations we're having here around Tolkien and the things we get on it happens at the algebra camp and it's one of my favorite parts of it. So three questions here that are bonus extra. We have one and thinking about the afterlife. Thinking about what happens after Middle Earth.

Do dwarves, elves, men go to the same afterlife or realm or different realms? Yeah, I'm curious about that. And then the second question is what happens to dwarves after the Lord of the Rings?

I don't know if you're talking about the age of men, where they go, what happens? I don't know. And then Trip has one where he was really curious, what dwarven realm would you want to visit and what age? And we have to.

All three of us have to go together because we can't do this separate.

It's a road trip.

It's a road trip.

So that first one, thinking about the afterlife, think about what happens, you know, you know at the end of Lord of the Rings when they hop on the Elven ships and they're, they're heading off to where, Nick, where are they headed? They're heading to the.

They're headed off to. It's unclear. It's either Valinor or the Isle of Tol Orestia.

And, and there's some hobbits and some elves on that ship. But you know, in terms of like where do.

In terms of the diversity that happens in Middle Earth, these different races of elves, men, hobbits, elves, do they go to the same place or different one? I. I'm Nick, I'm. I'm curious. I.

My, my just first hot take is like man, if they're entangled and do life together in Middle Earth, why wouldn't they do it after together? So same way like C.S. Lewis talks about, like. Yeah. Do dogs go to heaven?

Well, they are animals go to heaven or animals a part of the afterlife with us in the new creation. If they have a big part of, of how we do life here on Earth now, why wouldn't they on the next one? Is it kind of my take on things?

So I would say like yeah, se weird. Since they were so immersed and embedded with each other and their journeys together in that age together, why wouldn't be the next one?

But Nick, what are you thinking? What drew that kind of question as we were discussing off air, what that would look like?

You know, it's weird because Middle Earth is an interesting place in the way that Tolkien writes is because the dwarves, humans and elves and even the orcs to a certain extent, all kind of believe in honor the same. I mean, not the same, but different beings, like the Valar and stuff.

But they have their different traditions on how they function and interact with them throughout like their entire metaphysical existence. And like, you know, we're talking about death here. Okay. There is. There is no heaven in Middle Earth. Okay, right. And we'll.

We'll.

We'll stick to the beginning here. We'll talk about the life cycle. So elves are technically not immortal. They are serially long evil.

Which means that as long as the earth exists and nobody kills them, they will live as long as the earth exists. Wow. So that's the elves.

But once, you know, Iluvatar decides, you know, it's time to have the new creation, the elves will kind of be renewed or go, you know, whatever. So when. When elves die, their spirits go to this waiting place called the Halls of Mandos.

There's a vala lower G God named Mandos, and he's basically just hanging out with the elves, their spirits, and eventually elves. Elves actually do reincarnate. So we only can see one instance in the whole legendarium. And it's this elf named Glorfindel. Okay.

But the elves basically can reincarnate as they're. If they die, their spirit goes to the Halls of Mandos. Mandos rehouses their bodies. Okay. That's one example. Men. Oh, sorry. Good. Well, you need.

No, no, that's cool. I'm just like. I'm learning new stuff here. I didn't know all that. That's good.

Yeah. So men, they can. They will die, right? Men are mortal. And humans and humans go beyond the walls of the world. It's a mystery.

No one knows where humans are going. So Illuvatar right now is the only one who can dwell outside of creation.

And apparently the tradition is that humans get to go beyond the walls of the world. Possibly they might be hanging out in the Halls of Mandos before they get there as like a transitionary place, but it's. It's unclear. We don't.

The whole afterlife for. For humans is a mystery. Now the dwarves we know almost nothing with certainty about what's happening to them.

The elves think that they just kind of go back to the dirt. They just become stone when they die. You know, classic elves.

They're like, we get to go to the Halls of Mandos and be reincarnated and live our best lives. And they're like, obviously back to Ash Wednesday. You dwarves, you short. You short people.

Stunted ones. You. Oh, stunted ones. And.

But the dwarves, you know, obviously are like, elna, that's not. That's not what happens to us. We. We actually go to our own little separate chamber in the hall of Mandos, and then basically, we're just chilling.

We don't even get reincarnated. We're chilling, you know, in the Halls of Mandos, living our heavenly life or whatever it is, until Illuvitar calls us back to restore.

To fight in the last battle. There's a last battle? You know, kind of a sort of Armageddon type of deal.

And Tolkien's legendarium, they'll fight the battle, and then they will help with the rebuilding of the new creation. So that's kind of the sort of textual tradition of the afterlife. And hobbits are actually.

They're a subspecies of humans, so the same things that happens to humans in the afterlife happen to hobbits as well, because they're technically humans.

Gotcha.

Yeah.

Can I ask. Can I ask you a question, Nick?

Yeah.

This is in a long note, so we didn't get to. In the previous podcast. Okay. So the line in the peoples of Middle Earth about what happens to the dwarves is there was a light.

This is Durin the seventh. The last Durin.

So the restoration of all things, the Dwarves, the last Durin shows up, and they become like the master crafters to build the world to come. But the line there is.

There was light again in deep places and the ringing of hammers and the harping of harps until the world grew old and the dwarves failed in the. Of Doran's race ended. Right. Which if you're.

If you're into Tolkien, you don't understand that that's like, a compliment because it's like this is the long defeat of, like, big Norse energy, right? And. And so big Norse energy. Yeah. Yeah. Love that junk. And so. So the. Because there.

There's the sense that, like, in our age, like the Fourth Age, like, where we are technically, if you, you know, if we take the legendarium as, like, setting up the age of men.

Yeah.

Then Tolkien's writing it all in a space where all the people are reporting are before our age. He's Catholic, so there's like this deep resonance with it and such.

But you have this sense of like, no one, none of us have ever hung out with an elf, a Hobbit or a dwarf. So what did they do? Right? And.

But they have this vocation as allies, creation or like sub creations of allay to like rebuild and everything at the world to come. So like the, like, they have a role as like the Master Builders of the Crescendo of Arda, the world, but they also get the whole.

That one little line that has long defeat energy and. And then the peoples of Middle Earth just moves on. There's not anything else there. So like, what are we supposed to do with that?

Like, if you're like the Master builders for new creation, essentially, right, so this would be talking about new creation, like a new heavens and a new earth prior to Christ, if you're thinking Catholic Tolkien energies there. And so like you have this vocation and you get, oh, well, also the long defeat line, right? Like I.

None of the PDFs that I uploaded when I started asking questions to, it gave me an answer to this. And so I was like, I want to ask Nick about this. But we didn't get to it in our previous podcast.

Yeah, yeah.

Now this is.

This is the fun thing about Tolkien and either is very frustrating or enjoyable or both, is that when it comes to the canonicity of Middle Earth, we've got the published versions, right? We've got the Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion are technically the finished standalone volumes.

The thing with Tolkien is that he did not stop revising everything that he had ever written all the time. There are five different versions of the Hobbit. There are so many different versions of the Lord of the Rings.

Tolkien wrote like six different versions of the Silmarillion before he. And he didn't even. He wasn't even published in his lifetime and his son compiled all this stuff and was like, I guess this is the Silmarillion.

Here you go.

And then, you know, after he was publishing all of his stuff, which the peoples of Middle Earth is part of this volume called the History of Middle Earth, which is now this like 14 volume extra writings that Tolkien did in Middle Earth. And some of it he wrote way before he finished Lord of the Rings. And a lot of it he wrote after Lord of the Rings as he's revising everything.

So the question, the answer is we don't know what happens to the Dwarves? They could be. The line of Durin could end and a long defeat happens.

They could be in the halls of Mandos waiting until they are called back to fight the last battle and build the new creation. And maybe Khazad will be brought to its former glory or beyond.

And ultimately, I think if we were to ask Tolkien, if he were to come back and we go, what's the answer?

Tolkien, he would go, he would give us this long 20 page document, he would go back to resting, we'd come back a week later, and if we could use our medium powers to bring him back, he would write us another 20 page document with completely differing and conflicting answers.

Would he have a hat that says make Khazadoom great again? Would he?

No, you know, thankfully, I don't think so.

Good, good. That's. That's a reassuring.

Yeah. Now all the people out there hoping that Tolkien would be a red hat wearing.

Yeah, I think it'd be like Carolina blue. And it's like Khazadoom just says, I.

Kind of like that.

The same people that want to ruin Tolkien also ruined Jesus and Bon Offer. So let's just not trust them.

There's a trend. There's a trend there.

Well, I think that's interesting because, you know, like, yeah, in our other podcast we did, you can find over on our website in 4th wall and all that in terms of the Dwarves, like sometimes the dwarves are kind of the forgotten race or, or in, you know, you have the, the men, you have the elves, you have the, the hobbits and, but the, but the doors are there that have a big impact in all this. And so these kind of speculative questions of, you know, will they all hang out together there in the afterlife?

But, you know, what happened to after Lord of the Rings?

I, I think they're, I think they're all together, I think because like that Fellowship of the Ring where they're sitting around trying to decide and they don't always have to agree for everything. Yeah, their, their friendship, their journey together is what molded them together in terms of.

To either their, their common enemy or what they experienced together pulled them closer together to where they understood one another in terms of who they are.

And so I don't think, you know, as Tripp says often on his podcast, that they, they are not themselves without the other, that, you know, they, they are, they're not the same without the other in, in their lives. And, and their relationships matter. So I, I think, I think they're, I think they're all together there in the afterlife.

That how they journey together here and what they practiced and what they learned and experience here will affect in terms of what happens next in the next chapter or what that looks like in the next age or realm and things.

So, and here's my theory, Nick. You can tell me if this is good or not, but if Gimli goes with Legolas.

Yeah.

And they go off to the Gray Havens and then you think that now a Dwarf has been invited. Is there anything in ERU Iluvatar that would say a possibility is available to one in a race that is denied to all the others?

That seems a low Auru Iluvatar move. And that's like beneath the character of God to do something like that. And so the Gimli goes is evidence that.

That while Eruluvatar didn't plan initially for the creation of the Dwarves, when you recognize the role they played in a series of view catastrophes makes ERU Iluvatar's whole story come into being. They're now essential to the narrative itself.

Kind of unplanned redemption arc, right? Kind of an unplanned.

Yeah. And a gentile. I just want to say it's really nice that. That God had some improv. And can we. Other people can be into the branch of promise.

Yes. And yes.

And baby.

Yes.

That. That. That's like. That's. That's a trip. Who will read my own religious tradition?

And where there's a deep wideness of God's mercy that Ariel Lupitard would be like, well, if Gimli's here, then it is now a possibility for all Dwarves. And because the Dwarves have this sense that.

Because if you listen to other podcasts, Doran, who has multiple instantiations, seven of them all the way to the end. And then the line has this like ongoing reincarnation. Ish, echoey shared vibe of identity.

Doran is like the first fruits of Dwarfish participation in eschatological banquet.

Yeah, say that sentence again. Say that louder in the back for those in the back. What did you say? True. That's a beautiful sentence.

So Dorian gets. Doran gets and goes with Legolas into the Gray Havens. Right. Which is like a way of being like. No, no, he's for real. Right.

Like Bilbo Frodo were there.

He's the firstborn of the first fruits of the.

Yeah. So like how Christ is raised from the dead and pulls Adam and Eve and everyone else that has passed before right out of the grave.

Sticking it to Satan and shit. Because he's there. It says not just something about him, as if he's ascended to heavens as this rare exception.

He's the revelation of God's Eruluvatar's ultimate adoption of the Dwarvish people into the life of God. And so Gimli as an heir of Durin is the first fruits of Durin's people in to the halls of Mendas, all that kind of stuff.

Like you like, there's nothing in it that I could come up with that says that's not possible and it's so cool it should be true. Yeah, that's trips theory.

I love it.

I love that too. And for those like, you know, Illuvatar does make exceptions for people throughout the legendarium.

And for those who are unfamiliar, there is a story called Beren and Luthien. And it is a story. It's one of the few times an elf and a human can intermingle. Interwed. Okay.

For some reason, Tolkien doesn't really like in the legendarium. For some reason dwarves and elves can't get together. And elves and humans.

What about the hobbits?

The hobbits? That's a great question. Technique, you know. That's a great question. Can I. Can a human get with a hobbit? You know.

Oh, no.

But here's the thing.

I was thinking about the dwarf elf love in the hobbit movie.

Oh.

Oh, yeah.

What was it feeling. Is it Keely? No. Who is it? Yeah, it's Keely. Yeah. Terry L. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.

Where's that story at the Legendarium, where.

You're just not anywhere. Oh, which one are you talking about?

The. The one you just referenced. Like the legendarium of the.

What you were just talking about of Gimli and Legolas.

No, no, the starts with the bee.

Oh, Brennan. Luthien.

Yeah. Where is that?

That is in the Silmarillion.

Okay.

And so it is one of the great tales. Tolkien has three really main texts that are considered like his epics, you know, and Burren and Luthien is one of them.

And so Baron is a man, he's a human, and he falls in love with an elf maiden named Luthien. And they go through this awesome quest. They basically temporarily defeat Morgoth who is like the Og Satan character. And Baron, spoiler alert, dies.

And Luthien sings to Mandos into the Valar and say, hey, I know this dude's immortal, but can you like bring him back from the dead? And they're like, damn, Girl, that's a good voice. Yeah, we're gonna bring him back from the dead for you. Damn. So they.

And, you know, they don't get to get to be together, but eventually they both die. Or. No, it's unclear actually, whether or not they die again.

But regardless, they do spend eternity together, which for a human and elf, is not normal. You know, they're kind of separate.

And that's the story Aragorn is telling the hobbits at Weathertop. Like, right before they get to Weathertop, the song he sings, like, what are you singing? Oh, it's a story of Baron and Luthien.

You get these little bits in Lord of the Rings, and then when you finally read the Silmarillion, you're like, oh, junk. There's like a whole 200 page book of this story in here that one song was telling me about.

And it's like, why Aragorn and Arwen, like, they are the echo of Beren and Luthien and what's on Tolkien's grave, Nick?

Oh, yeah. Tolkien wrote the story. He considered himself to be Baron and his wife to be Luthien.

And on his grave, it's Baron and Luthien with him and his wife's grave where they're buried together.

Come on.

Yeah, it's pretty gangster, dude. Yeah. Yeah. But I want to affirm Trip's headcanon about Gimli and Legolas, because I do think that their exceptions could be made.

And not only is it Legolas friendship, but Galadriel actually appeals to the Valar on Gimli's behalf. So we don't know what happens.

Yeah, he's got her hair around.

He's got her hair, dude. Put in crystal, dude.

Anyone for hair? But Will.

Yeah, I think. I think my dog Woody. Yeah, I had some snippets of Woody's hair. In case I want to clone in case I want to clone that thing. Let me claim the Woodster.

Didn't Tom Brady clone his dog?

Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. I believe I'll ask Bill Belichick here on campus if that's true.

When I run into him here at unc, I'll ask him that question. All right, so I trips. Trips to their question here.

What was the second question?

Well, what happened to the Dwarves after Lord of the Rings? And I think Nick touched tip to side to that when. When you were talking about, like, Gimli, but also, like, you guys. You guys were.

Yeah, yeah, we don't know what happened to the Dwarves, we don't know what happened.

But.

Well, we do know what. We do know what Gimli did. It was my answer to the third question. Okay, yeah, like where you want to go? Which, which dwarven realm?

Yeah, I like this that we're gonna go with each other.

So, so if we were going to journey to, to a dwarven realm, which, which one we go to in any of the ages. And I'm, I, I'm. I do not know this lore is. It's not anywhere in my bandwidth or head about that.

But I'm trust y' all and follow y' all and let me know and you can convince me one or the other. But, but go for it. Where, where, where are we headed? Where are we going? Where are our options?

I want to build the glittering caves. The glittering caves. So you know how Helm's Deep in the book, which is very different than the movie of Helm's Deep.

Gimli gets stuck in this cave because he's like, you get the bomb goes off and all this kind of thing and they gotta like fight back. They get stuck in this cave. Well, next to Helm's Deep, there's this cave.

And like on top of him just like taking down Orcs and stuff in there, not dying, he's like, look at this cave. This is a great cave. This is high quality, high quality cave work here. What are these humans doing? They have not crafted this cave up.

Why would you have such a high quality cave here? This is so compellingly beautiful and you haven't worked the rock. And he brings us up repeatedly throughout the rest of the book to Legolas.

And they make this little deal of like what they're going to do if they survive. And where Gimli wants to go with Legolas is back to the glittering caves. So what we know about is he doesn't just go back there.

He, he, he Dwarves this junk up and the glittering case become the most beautiful thing Dwarves have ever done. Gimli brings back some Dwarves. They like turn this there you just had.

This is how one of the coolest things about dwarfs, right, like this is a cave next to a castle, you know that Rohan has. And they just had some giant battle up in the north you don't know about till you read.

He's like, this has got potential. We got potential.

Yeah. This is what Dwarves like. He like goes to dwarfs. Like half of them are dead.

They just were fighting off the Easterlings in the north for the whole thing to go down. He's like, guys, you Won't believe this. I was at home steep. I got cornered in this cave and this junk is glittering af. And I just like.

And they're like what do you mean glittering? Like you mean they haven't done anything to it? And he's like no, it's just giant caverns. It is beautiful.

And these humans have just been sitting next to a cave with all this potential. And then Gimli's like man, we got to call.

We got to call like, like the home network and get a reality TV show up here in Middle Earth because we're going to redo this cave. And then there's a whole multiple seasons of them redoing the glittering caves. And it becomes, you know, it's, it's like vacation galore for dwarves.

They come in and they're like clearly I'm on vacation. There's probably, it's. It's probably it's one of those all inclusive dwarf resorts. They're like all the L's going on. Look at these caves.

Just cave upon cave all crafted up as glitched out.

Is it like a new resort? Like it's not even mithril. It's like a whole new resource. What if you discovered a new element that's even better than mithril like in that cave?

That, that would be rad. Like just a whole nother new compound of, of or an element. That there.

Element.

Yeah, I. Yeah, yeah.

And you have to zip line across.

To get to it.

Did you say Riz, dude?

Rizzrel. It's like it's, it's the pretty mithril.

This mythos got. Riz. We're gonna call it Rizz Roll.

But, but like, but I just think it would be cool to go one. Because like what, what dwarf do we have any attachment to more than Gimli? 2. It's like the fruit of Gimli. Humans. Like the dwarves. Humans and elves.

Friendship. And it's like what the dwarves poured their gifts that they bring to Middle Earth into after the destruction of the ring.

Like you know, if you go there one pretty it's going to be fun. Dwarves know how to party. And who do you want to hear cool ass stories from more than a bunch of dwarves when they're on vacation?

This is where they're going to go. They're going to go to the glittering caves and you're going to. Let's do this.

I just.

I feel like it's a high quality pool.

That's it. And they're going to make some, some Rizz Rizz Roll.

Yeah. They're gonna get. You put it on. It's it. The Dwarves.

It's like one big disco ball. Like, they put it on and you're like a walking disco ball. Like a. Like a mirror ball. You're gonna be walking around. I love that.

Nick, is there another option there?

You won.

Is there another option out there that we could go, what?

You put on the Ris Roll and all of a sudden their BMI drops. It's like Luca. In the off season, they came back a skinny Luca. All of a sudden, this skinny Gimli. They're like, homeboy must have been on the keto.

He's like, no, it's that Rizz rule.

It's that Rizz Roll, dude. All I can think of is Fat Mac and Ripped Mac from freaking. It's always sunny in Philadelphia.

Yeah.

Fatty Bulger came over there with Marion Pippen. And now no one knows why it's his nickname. They're like, what happened? He's like, no, Mary Pippin got tall with that it wash.

But Fatty, though, he's got the red glittering claves. He's got that Rizzeral.

I love that we invented a new element. Lord of the Rings. Please write a paper on that, Nick. And in present.

Yeah, I'll write a paper on Rizz Roll. I'll send it to there. I have friends who write Tolkien fan fiction. I'm gonna give that.

I need that.

Write us in fan fiction.

I need that. I need that story. Well, are there other options? I'm pretty convinced the glittering caves. Because I want some Riz. But, Nick, what else is there?

Make you put it on. And all of a sudden you just start saying it's Doran's ban.

Oh, my God, dude. Not. It's Darren's Bane.

Oh, so good. Ah, so good. I. We. We could live it there, Nick. Unless you got another something else there. That's pretty good, I think.

I think all of Trip's arguments about, like, the personal connection, like, the only place that we hear a Dwarf, like, besides Kaza Doom, because of Tomb is. Is a shell of what it used to be. But when it's the fresh glittering caves where Gimli's like, this is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen.

And even Legolas is like, who thinks Dwarves speaking is, like, not enjoyable. He's like, oh, my God, Gimli, you've moved me. Like, I've never heard you talk like this before.

And when they make that deal, Legolas is like, absolutely. Like, I will absolutely come here with you.

And so when an elf is willing to be like, when a dwarf says, this is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen, and an elf is like, yeah, I believe you. We'll hang out here. I mean, where else are you going to go, you know, Riz, Roll Endurance Bane.

And I want a Theology Beer camp shirt that says meet me in the glittering caves is what I want. I want that shirt. I want that shirt with a big mirror ball kind of turning, you know, with some Riz. I love that.

That is really good friends, fellows, fellow systematic ecologists out there who listen to this. If you're like, totally lost, you're just. You're just here to hang with us and laugh with us, that. That's great. But you.

You can go deeper in all these things when it comes to joining the Tolkien heads and, and the work that they've done or talking pop with. With Nick and his substack and what's the name of your book that you put out is Talking in Pop Culture? Is that. That.

That's the one. That's it.

One. You can. You can find that out there. And Tripp has many conversations, you know, on with, with Tolkien and Rings of Power, and they'll.

We invite you to come to theology beer camp, and they'll probably be a. A Tolkien panel. We'll go. We'll go deep on this and, and you too can wear a shirt. This is Mimi and the Glittering Caves.

I can't wait to make that shirt.

Taylor. Right now.

That's right. Oh, Taylor, I'm making that note.

Yes, dude.

Taylor, please make that shirt super fun. And, and part of this was a. Was a bonus episode just, just to kind of lure you over to. To our Fourth Wall site and our.

In our website to listen to how we talked about the face behind us with Durin. And we. We love this. We kick out on Tolkien and there's more to do.

And we're going to keep reading, we're going to keep talking, we're going to keep expanding upon this fandom that we love so much and so Trip. Nick, man, thanks for hanging out. And until next time, y', all,.

The risen me is the risen you sees.

The wrist and respects the Riz.

Yeah. Duran is the OG Rizzler.

That's right, the Rizzler. Peace, y'. All.