Joshua Noel is joined by former host, Nick Polk, to dive into the lush world of Tolkien this Arbor Day, exploring the vital character of Yavanna—the Vala of nature herself. They kick things off by highlighting how Yavanna is not just the face behind the two iconic trees of Valinor, but also the creative force that brought about the Silmarils and the Ents. With a mix of reverence and cheeky banter, they discuss how Yavanna's essence intertwines with the very fabric of Middle-earth, influencing everything from the light of the sun and moon to the fate of the Ents in the battle against Saruman. As they ramble through Tolkien’s rich lore, they emphasize the importance of caring for trees in our own world, echoing Yavanna’s devotion to nature. So if you're down for a wild ride through Arda, this episode is a must-listen for any Tolkien fan!

Yavanna, the Vala of Nature, takes center stage in this rich podcast episode that dives into the intricacies of Tolkien's world. Joshua and Nick kick things off with a casual banter about the significance of Arbor Day, seamlessly transitioning into a deeper exploration of Yavanna’s role in the creation of the two Trees of Valinor and the Silmarils. Listeners are treated to an engaging narrative that paints Yavanna not just as a background character, but as a pivotal force in the lore of Middle-earth. The hosts discuss how her nurturing spirit led to the birth of the Ents and the preservation of the natural world, making the case that without Yavanna, Tolkien's universe would lack the lush greenery that defines it. They draw parallels between Yavanna's lament and the creation of new life, showcasing how Tolkien intertwines sorrow and beauty in his storytelling. As the episode unfolds, they delve into the implications of Yavanna's actions on the larger narrative, emphasizing her integral role in the tales of the Silmarillion and the fate of Middle-earth. This summary encapsulates the episode's exploration of Yavanna's character, her relationships with other Valar, and the broader themes of creation and loss within Tolkien's mythos.

Takeaways:

• Yavanna is the Vala responsible for creating the two trees of Valinor, which symbolize hope and beauty in Tolkien's legendarium.
• Without Yavanna, there would be no Silmarils, the sun and moon, or even the Ents, making her a crucial character in Middle-earth's mythology.
• The intertwining of sorrow and beauty in Yavanna's story reflects Tolkien's concept of eucatastrophe, where joy arises from tragedy.
• Nick Polk and Joshua Noel explore how Yavanna's creation of the Ents embodies the theme of nature's resilience against industrial destruction.
• Tolkien's deep affection for trees is evident, as he uses them to symbolize life, hope, and the consequences of industrialization in Middle-earth.
• This Arbor Day episode emphasizes the significance of preserving nature, paralleling Yavanna's care for the trees with contemporary environmental concerns.

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Be sure to check out our merch, find extra content, and become an official member of Systematic Geekology on our website:

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Follow Nick on his Substack:

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Listen to last year's Arbor Day special too:

https://systematic-geekology.captivate.fm/episode/the-erdtree-and-its-symbolism-a-celebration-of-arbor-day-in-elden-ring/

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Check out other episodes in this ear's theme of "The Faces Behind Us":

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/dd903597-98be-49ed-998c-5cdaf73b6af4

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Listen to our other Middle Earth episodes:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/cd11887b-5998-452c-aa1f-330423162b51

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Check out other episodes with Joshua:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/642da9db-496a-40f5-b212-7013d1e211e0

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Check out other episodes with great guests like Nick:

https://player.captivate.fm/collection/f4c32709-d8ff-4cef-8dfd-5775275c3c5e

Mentioned in this episode:

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Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the sun. And from all its branches there spilled a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew green with corn.

But the roots of the tree were in the waves of Olmo, and the winds of Manwe spoke in its leaves. That's right, guys. We're talking about the one and only your favorite valor this Arbor Day. Yavanna. We're talking about the face behind the.

The face behind the two trees of Valinor, the face behind the Silmarils. It's going to be a fun one. If you like Lord of the Rings, Arda, the Cosmics of Middle Earth. This is going to be a great episode for you.

I'm Joshua Nol, and I'm here with the one and only Tolkien reincarnated, Nick Polk. How's it going?

What's up, dude? Tolkien reincarnated. Wow. You know, my, my, my fa. His Fayar has entered, you know, my roar.

It's great because he's rolling in his grave that we're talking about reincarnation, probably.

No, dude, the elves reincarnate.

That's right. That's right. Yeah. He's the blame for us believing in reincarnation.

It's all his fault. It's all his fault. Tolkien the Catholic.

Okay. Oh, yeah. But stuff. Well, we had to talk about what we're geeking out on lately. You know, Weird one, weird one.

I know this is like hard transition, but Scrubs came back. I'm loving the renewal. And my wife started watching the new episode with me and then was like, what if we rewatched the original Scrubs?

She had never seen it, like, all the way through. She's seen parts of it, but, like, for me, it's like my comfort show. So I've seen it all the way through, like, more times than I care to say.

Fun joke. And for my friend who's probably listening, when I was first introduced to Scrubs in college and he showed me the show, no one saw me for three days.

I came back red eyed and they're like, where have you been, dude? And I'm like, you know, some people sleep. I watch Scrubs instead. I literally just watched it all straight through. No sleep, anything.

Like, hyper fixated. And it hasn't left me since. Like, I love this show and I'm so excited to get to do a rewatch with my wife now.

Not because I need a comfort show right now, but just because we're watching something together. It's great. Yeah, dude, that's Great.

What have you been geeking out on, man?

I just, you know, whenever I did the Scrubs, man, I remember watching it in high school and then watching it again with my friends my freshman year of college, too. So high school and college memories with Scrubs. Nice.

Yeah.

Yeah. I need to watch. I need to give it. So it is good. I need to. I need to give it a go.

It's. I think it's good. I think you would like it.

You know how, like, some Lord of the Rings fans get upset about, like, the Hobbit or the new show or whatever. Like, wait a minute. We don't like how this was. You know, there's.

There are some people who are butthurt by some stuff, but I'm like, I think it makes sense, and I'm just gonna roll with it. It's fine, guys. Yeah.

I'm here for a good time.

Yeah. If you like the laughs and the whatever and you're not like, super attached to any particular storyline and you're just there for fun, it's great.

Heck, yeah, dude. You know, I'm nerding out on two things, really. So I went to Ireland for spring break and this, this year, last couple weeks ago.

And so I like Irish and I'm.

Like, corned beef, dude.

Yeah, Straight corned beef potatoes. You know, Guinness. I did drink a ton of Guinness.

Good.

But I like. I like literature and I got some James Joyce, and I'm kind of geeking out on a little James Joyce recently and then.

And, you know, other one is the new anime Rooster Fighter. And I've just gotten so excited for each new episode, and it is just absurd, fantastic animation, and it's kind of amazing.

Rooster Fighter.

Yeah, it's on. I think it's on Crunchyroll, of course, but it's on Disney and Hulu as well.

Nice. I have to check it out. That actually, I love animation. I'm a nerd. But, you know, that's why we do this, because we're geeks. Yeah.

Speaking of which, if you're a geek for this show, consider rating and reviewing wherever you get your podcast.

If it's Spotify, Apple, podcasts, wherever the rates, the reviews, all that stuff helps flag it for algorithms so that people think this show's important and we'll give it a listen, and that helps us out and we appreciate it. Also, what helps us out is having financial supporters of the show. We love all of them.

Today we're especially shouting out Trip Fuller, because if I'm going to shout out a Financial sponsor on a Lord of the Rings episode. I think it has to be Tripp.

Absolutely. What a guy. What a freaking guy.

He won't, but he might. You can also get your own shout out. If you want to be like Tripp, you can get your own shout out.

Become an official member of Systemic Ecology on our website. That's in the show's description. Same website. You can get this really cool T shirt that's up right here.

My favorite color.

It's so good. So, yeah, yeah. Guys, check out the shirt.

Think about grabbing it, support the show, give us a little money so that we can keep recording and find a way to pay to go to Kansas City.

Also, if you want to hear more of our Faces Behind Us series, there will be a playlist for the entire series for our annual theme in the show's description. A lot of links down there. All good stuff. Check them out. Speaking of things, you need to check out links. Nick Polk and the Silmarillion.

Gotta check them all out. So today we are gonna be talking about Yavanna, because it's Arbor Day. We love celebrating Arbor Day.

It's something we do every year with various different episodes. I might link some of those down below, too, if you want to hear Old years. One year, I think Nick and I did talk about the Ents in the Entwives.

I think we had an episode. We were discussing that a little bit.

Yeah, we did.

Yeah. Yeah. Because Nick was a former host.

I don't remember if you were a host at that point or if you were a guesting then, but, like, you know, either way. Either way, they should listen to it.

100% Because that was an Arbor Day episode, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I do a lot of Arbor Day. I love Arbor Day.

I love Arbor Day. I have a membership to whatever it's called, the Arbor Day foundation or whatever the heck it is.

I have two maples from the Arbor Day foundation in my front yard.

Yeah, if I was better, I would. We're figuring out what trees we want because we got a New house last year and we didn't want to plant stuff the first year.

We've been kind of like, waiting to plan it out. And this year we're figuring out some trees in the backyard. We're going to get a weeping cherry.

Oh, that sounds so sick, dude.

Oh, yeah, it's going to be great. But other than trees, we want to talk about the Silmarillion, Arda, Lord of the Rings, Middle Earth, whatever other nouns you guys want to hear.

That's what we're talking about today. And some little background so they know the gist. Right. So we're talking about the Faces behind us. That's our annual theme.

We're talking not about the main characters, but the characters behind the main characters and the Silverilion. It's kind of hard to figure out who the main characters and stuff are, I guess, or the Ents.

But Yavanna is definitely one of those faces that you're like, this character is kind of behind the scenes of everything that goes on in Middle Earth. Like, everything. So I'm excited to get into it.

But first, Nick, could you, for those who may not know, could you explain who are the Valor, what are the two Trees of Alinor? And who are the Ents, the Silmarillion, the Silmarils, what are the Silmarils, etc.

Yeah, so I'll kind of start from the beginning there. Yeah. So I love this is asking a Tolkien nerd to info dump about the Silmarillion. Yes, please.

Yeah, I can't wait.

I'm excited. So, you know, for those who don't know if you've only seen the movies or if you.

Maybe you've only seen the TV show or maybe you've just read the books, you know, everyone is familiar with Treebeard or at least the Ants. And so they're cool tree people, which is really neat. And where do they come from? And I will tell you where they come from.

But, you know, we'll start a little before I get to, like, where they come from. We're going to go all the way to the beginning. And I did an episode with Will and Trip on here for. For another episode of the Faces Behind.

What is it?

Yes. Yeah, the Faces behind us. It was a website exclusive, but it's available for free, so you still should go to the website.

But yeah, so we talked about the beginning of the universe, the Tolkien universe, and it is in the Aina Lindele and the Silmarillion. And so in the beginning, there's one Monotheistic God. And then there are different beings. And I won't focus on all the beings.

We'll talk about the Valar. And the Valar are basically the lower G gods of Middle Earth.

And they work with the monotheistic God to construct the universe and specifically construct Arda, which is the Earth. And they make a blessed realm called Valinor. And there are eight primary Valar in the pantheon, if you will.

There's more Valar than eight, but there's like the main ones, they're like the. The Big 12, you know, in Greek mythology, if you're familiar with them. And the eight, which I don't know if I'm gonna. If I'm gonna be able to.

To recite them all. But the. The big ones that you should know are Manwe, who is kind of the. The mouthpiece for God, or ERU Iluvatar, Aule, the God of fire and.

Or smithing or work or. Yeah, yeah, Smith work. Kind of like a Hephaestus type of guy.

You've got Ulmo, who is the Vala of the waters, and you've got Yavanna, who is the Vala of Nature, who we'll be talking about. And then there's Varda, who is the wife of Manwe and basically the Vala of the stars. Those are pretty much the main ones you hear about all the time.

And Yavanna is actually married to Aule as well. Now, when the Earth is established, there is no sun or. Yeah, there is no sun, there is no moon, there is no light source.

And what happens is that there are two lamps that are constructed on either side of Arda and so they wax and wane depending on what's night and what's day. And Melkor, who is one of the big baddies or the big baddie, gets really pissed, destroys them. There's no more light. And things. The.

The Valar try to rebuild. Okay, and there is one of the. I think she's in the big eight. Her name is a Vala named Nienna. And this is actually Gandalf's teacher, essentially.

But Niana is like the Vala of pity and compassion. And she weeps because things suck now and then Yavanna starts singing a lament and a song and two trees start growing out of the ground.

And because Nienna has powerful tears because she's the Vala of pity, all of a sudden, new light sources come up. There is the. The. The golden tree, if you will, named Laurelin for. For my nerds out there, which is our sun. She is the sun tree, essentially.

And then there is Telperion, who is the white tree or the moon. Those. So those two trees come up, and they are the new light source for the world, and they are in the blessed Realm, Valinor.

And fast forward a long time from now. Elves come to Valinor. Okay?

Christmas elves.

Christmas elves. Yeah. 100 Short little guys.

You know, not Christmas. I'm sorry, guys. I can't help it.

So if, you know, if you're familiar with Tolkien's legendarium, you know, elves are epic. They are, like, 7 foot tall. They are the original craftsmen. Okay? And so if you're not familiar with that, you should.

The Silmarillion is a great place to start to learn about how awesome the elves are. There is one elf in particular who's, like, the greatest, also the most complex and problematic. His name is Feanor.

And he becomes this amazing craftsperson, and he actually studies under Yavanna's husband, Aule. And that's how he becomes so good at crafting jewels and other things like that. So Melkor is mad that there is new good things in the world.

And so Melkor and a giant spider named Ungoliant go and destroy the two trees.

And before that, Feanor is such a great craftsman that he is able to take the light from Laurelin and Telperi on the two trees and puts them into three jewels called the silmarils. And this is where the Silmarillion gets its namesake, because all the things that happen from this point on are because of the silmarils.

And so Feanor does this. The trees die. And Feanor had the opportunity to restore the trees because he had the light.

Yavanna asks him for it specifically, and Feanor says, no, they're mine. Get out of my way. And leaves Middle Earth. And then all the problems start really happening.

Yeah. Yeah. And if I'm remembering right, one of the Silmarils, because of Amor, end up in, like, the bottom of the sea.

I don't remember how the other two get what they get, but, like, one in, like, the fire on the Earth, and then one's up in, like, the cosmos, right?

Correct. Correct.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But that's. You know, this isn't a Silmaril episode. This is just Josh asking Nick if he understood the book properly.

Because I read it again this week.

But, like, for me, as much as I love it, sometimes the way Tolkien talks, like, it just feels so incredible that even when I don't get it, I'm so inspired. And then later, I think about. I'm like, did I understand that?

No.

100% Sure that I understood that. But I felt like I did, you know?

And, like, it definitely made me feel something.

But, like, did I get.

And who. Who are the main characters? I don't know if there are any main characters.

Yeah, maybe the one problematic Elf. Yeah.

Maybe Feanor, you know, or the Silmar.

I was thinking the dentist. I'm just a miss. Sorry, guys.

Freaking hermy dude adhd.

It's bad. Okay, so. No, I love it. Backtracking.

I'm trying to think through everything you said to see, like, if there was anything that I wanted to add or was like, yeah, that was so freaking cool. Because I know, obviously, love the trees. We're gonna get into some of Aule and Yavana's relationship in the end because, like, it's Arbor Day.

We gotta go there. But, like, I think the thing too, with the two trees, this is what was really cool to me, at least when I was listening this time. And it could.

I think that I got this correct. If not, it's what I was made to feel. And I think it's a valid feeling. Yeah.

So listening through, because, like, also $2, you get the Silmarillion on Amazon and it's both Kindle and audiobook, so you can read it and then you're in the car and just switch to the audiobook and then you're out of the car and you switch back to reading it and it's awesome. Anyway, let's get into it, though. Yeah, it's so cool.

But listening to this part, whenever the two trees were first being made after the lamps were destroyed, and it was like, I don't know, it felt like being at, like, this grand, beautiful funeral almost where they were mourning the loss of the light. And in that mourning, was it Yavanna who begins to sing?

Yes.

Yeah. Which is also super important. All of creation happens through song in art.

Yes.

Like, that's how ERU Iluvatar creates everything in Ainu and Lundelay. I'm sure. Which you guys spoke about recently. And I think we also did an episode back during our year of origins.

We talked about the origins of Middle Earth. And we also talked about it.

Oh, yeah.

So I might link that below. Maybe we'll see how good I am at links. But yeah.

So it's important that it was song because she's one of the valor that's creating with ERU Iluvadar not fighting against him. And she's doing that through song here. But it was like. I don't know, it was like a sad song to me is what it felt like.

It's like we're mourning and then out of that, new life came up. And I'm like, wow, that feels so, like, fundamentally Christian, you know?

Like, I try not to be that guy, but I'm like, no, that just felt deeply Christian. Like, that's just like, this is what Christianity is actually all about, you know?

Yeah, well, and I think you're correct, especially that notion. Tolkien has a word for it. It's called eucatastrophe. Okay. And it's this idea that only. Sorry.

The happy ending comes from the deliverance of something sorrowful. Okay. And so Tolkien talks about how sorrow and beauty are necessarily intertwined.

And you'll see that in Tolkien, where almost every beautiful moment or triumphant moment comes with severe loss. Right. And Yavanna also, when they lose the trees, I think you talk about. She sings again.

And then Telperion and Laurelin produce one more fruit each, and they become the seeds, the fruit or whatever. Produce, become the sun and the moon. Okay.

And so there's also that not only do these trees contribute to the life force of Valinor and I guess, the rest of the world, but also after their death, they contribute to sustaining all life through their. Their light, through their. Through the fruit. And for Tolkien, trees are not just trees.

Even these trees here, obviously the White Tree of Gondor trees are very much alive in the personal sense for Tolkien.

Yeah, yeah. And again, him being Catholic, it's no coincident. Two trees. And you think about the two trees in the garden of the Garden of Eden Bible story.

Like, I definitely think that it being part of the creation method, like that fits. It makes sense that that's probably a parallel.

And then to me, and this is something we just thought about not long before we started recording actually, was the. I'm. See if I pronounce this right. The Dagor. Dagroth. Oh, yeah. Am I saying that right? Okay. Yeah.

So it's like the last battle, which maybe canonicity is questionable. We'll say that. Yeah. But it's. Supposedly it's the prophecy of the end times.

And it's like there's this final battle for, you know, good and evil kind of stuff. They regain the. From the Silmarils. Feanor. Is that the name of the elf?

Feanor.

Feanor. Feanor, yeah. So I was like, that doesn't sound right. Feanor. He's even brought back into this whole thing.

They do return the lights to Yavanna and she recreates the trees, and I'm like, man. Then you couple that with, like, in the Silmarillion, which I think is more canon. There's levels of canon when they talk about the two trees.

There's, like, this moment it's describing where it's like, kind of like, I guess, dust, because, you know, there's no sun, moon yet when, like, the two trees lights are almost at the same time when, like, one's going in and one's going out. And it talks about, like, the beauty that that creates in the land of Valinor. And I'm like, oh. Like, to me, like, that even brings meaning.

Like, when you're watching Lord of the Rings and stuff, and they're like, oh, we're going to do the trip to Valinor, and it's like, heaven ish. And I'm like, oh, I get it now. Like, that actually does sound, like, majestic when you read it, you know?

Yeah, yeah, it's. Some of the stuff gets lost when you, like, obviously the films are very visually beautiful.

And, like, when Frodo leaves at the Gray Havens at the end of the Return of the King, I mean, just tears in the eyes, right?

But once you actually get the background knowledge to, like, Valinor, and Valinor, where Frodo's going at this point isn't even in the height of its beauty. Right. When you read the Silmarillion, Tolkien's descriptions of Valinor with the two trees is just like you said.

It feels like if you look at stuff and you talk about two trees in a magical realm, you're like, that's pretty mundane. But then when you read it, you get the feels. As you were saying, I do want.

To get to the Ents. So Yavanna is like. She's like, the valor of fruit, plants, life, whatever.

Early on, it talks about the creation of the trees, then very shortly after talks about her relationship with, I guess you would say, her husband. I don't know if it uses husband and wife language, but, like, yeah, that's what it is.

Yeah. I think, like you said, they don't use the language, but I think they are.

Yeah, it's interesting.

Sorry, this is a little bit of a sidebar, but it is interesting because, like, Tolkien criticized Lewis for, like, combining mythologies, but a lot of this feels like he took Greek mythology and combined it with Catholicism.

Oh, yeah.

Because, like, the Valor very much get the feel of, like, the Greek God. So you have Aru Iluvatar, who very much feels like the God of the Bible. And then you have the valor. That's like, okay, now we have Greek gods.

Then under them you have like the Menar. And that's like saints is what it feels like. Like Gandor is the saint of something. And this is like the saint of something.

I'm like, wait, so we're going back to Catholic? So you get like a weird mix. But, you know, he wasn't doing metaphor because how dare you think he did metaphor.

Right? How dare you?

Anyway, yeah. So let's talk about Aule and Yavanna's relationship. I think that's a good place to go. And that'll get us to the Ents.

Yeah, yeah. I love that, you know, and I think you're right.

I think there's less scholarship on people doing work on seeing the Greek elements in Tolkien's legendarium. But I really do think I compared Aule to Hephaestus in Greek mythology, if you are familiar, if listeners are familiar.

And Yavanna is very much like Demeter and not like her daughter Persephone, because she doesn't go to an underworld or whatever and marry a Hades like character. But Yavana basically is just in charge of everything that is growing and green is Yavana. It's all her.

And even possibly some of the animals also might be her doing. She's at least like a shepherd, like Vala, who takes care of things. And, you know, people always joke about opposites attracting.

Aule loves stone, he loves ore, he loves fire. And you've got this sort of opposites attract sort of thing. And part of the music of Iluvatar, actually.

So Iluvatar has like this whole plan in place for the whole of creation. And the Valar all have kind of bits and pieces of what that's going to look like. And the Ents are part of the vision.

And so Yavanna helps in bringing about the Ents. And of course she's just super stoked because where else has anyone talked about Ents? Ants are the coolest. They're like, so unique to Middle Earth.

And then Aule goes and creates the Dwarves. And this was not in Iluvatar's plan, but Iluvatar actually adopts the Dwarves and then incorporates them into the music.

And, you know, the Dwarves are notorious for having axes and cutting stuff and, you know, using wood. And, you know, Yvonne is like, listen, hubby, keep your Dwarves axes away from my freaking ants, dude. And he's like, why are you coming after me?

He's like, the elves and the in the men who are the children of Louisvatar are going to have to cut down the trees and burn their wood anyway. So Yavana gets real mad. She goes to Manway and she's like, listen here buddy.

She's like, these, these dwarves and elves and men are going to be cutting down my children. I don't think so. And man was like, all right, hold on. Real sick. And he's like, let me just talk to big daddy in the sky real quick.

And man way channels his energy because Manway is like the direct mouthpiece of Illuvatar. And he's like, oh, hey, by the way, your ants are not just going to be walking and talking.

They're going to be pretty freaking powerful and are going to be able to defend themselves.

So yeah, yeah, yeah. The timeline feels a little weird. And this is how.

This is one of those things where like to me it kind of shows that Tolkien wasn't finished with this.

Yeah, no doubt.

Because like the timeline is a little weird because like she has thought of the ends. She's like beginning like oh, this is what they're going to be like, you know, whatever.

And she's like, you know, just need approval from a rule of thar so we can get this, this job going. You know, he's the real creator. I'm just co creator kind of deal.

And then ole bust up with a dwarfs, they're gonna chop stuff up, they're gonna build some stuff. It's gonna be freaking cool, man.

Like you also have like an interesting contrast of like the innate desire to create looking a little bit different for Aule. And I think a lot of you know, more masculine types probably not me.

Like there's like this form of creating that's like we're welding and we're, you know, working with wood. Like there's a craftsmanship and like I don't like.

I think the desire was good and that's why Illuatar was like, no, okay, I'll let him be like what the heck? And Illuvitar's wait a minute. Your ants, we'll just make them the solution. And it's kind of like what came first? The dwarf. The int. The dwarf. The int.

Chicken or egg situation. The dwarf.

Ever decided, you know?

Yeah. And it's interesting because a lot of it's so incomplete and Tolkien revised things so many times.

But we do see at least with characters like Ivana and Owley, who they are is pretty intact from when Tolkien began writing early in, like, the nineteen teens or the twenties. They're at least they're, like you said, the timeline of, like, who they create and what transforms over time.

But it's interesting that that is so incomplete and, like, can convoluted. But Yavana and Alice character are pretty much stay the same throughout Tolkien's writing, which is just really interesting to me.

Yeah. Like, which, you know, I appreciate.

I love character development, so I like that he spends so much time with the characters and then he's like, let me get the backstory. Then after we get the backstory, I might think about starting the story maybe.

Right.

Yeah. So we talked about a lot of stuff. It's called the Silmarillion because of the Silmarils.

They get their light from the two trees after they were destroyed. Ish. Maybe during their destruction. Question mark. Timelines. Timelines are weird in the Silmarillion, but we kind of went over a lot of this.

I want to ask you a really probably weird question here, and there's two different. Like, there's a few different routes that I want to go with the question, but I want to see what your thoughts are first.

What would the stories of Arda, what would they be like if Yavanna was not a part of the story? What would be missing other than everything?

Yeah. You literally would not have plants and possibly animals. You would not have the two trees.

You would not have the Silmarils, you would not have the sun and moon, and, of course, you would not have the Ent and, you know, the ants. Well, everything here, Tolkien, has, like, a domino effect, storytelling. Without the ants, there's no defeat of Saruman.

No defeat of Saruman, everyone's screwed. Saruman and. Or Sauron win. Without the Silmarils, you know, there's no epic legends, you know, and without the two trees, no.

No light source, no white tree of Gondor, no symbols of hope and power and kings, you know, so, yeah, she's. She's pretty integral.

Yeah. Yeah, that's where I was. Like, it's kind of a hard question. So we asked this question in all of the episodes of the Faces behind us.

But I'm like, it's hard here because, like, without Ivana, she created trees. No trees, no oxygen. Everyone's dead.

That's true.

There's nothing but ignoring that, like, even, like, each individual part that she played, I'm like, okay, if she wasn't there to create the two trees, like, let's forget about Trees in general, you know, get the Silmarils, which kind of serve as this because, like, the elves capture the beauty of the trees and then they get envious with that power.

And it kind of serves as the same thing as, like, you know, the fruit and the garden story of the Bible, where it's like, that was like that first sin that kind of caused everything else to start falling apart. So you don't get the Hobbit, you don't get the Lord of the rings, etc. Okay, let's say the two trees still somehow happen.

She doesn't create the Ents while they lose at Isengard. Saruman's victorious. Then no one's there to distract the Eye of Sauron. Frodo and them can't destroy the Ring. Everybody loses.

Morgoth comes back somehow.

Mary and Pippin are dead, you know.

Yeah. Like, every little individual thing she did, I'm like, if you take any one of those actions out, kind of everything falls apart.

Yeah. Witch King stays alive. Yeah. All those things.

Yeah. So I was like, it's a hard question because. And it's funny because I don't think now Iluvatar is mentioned in, like, the Rings of Power TV series.

Morgoth is mentioned. I don't know if either of them are mentioned in Hobbit, Lord of the Rings.

I think they are in the extended cut, but I don't know if they are in the regular. I'm unsure.

That's a great question. I don't remember. I know the Val. I think the Valar. And Morgoth.

Yeah.

I think Morgoth's mentioned definitely in the movies. Theatrical. I. I don't know if the Valor. I think the Valar are mentioned. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, that was the other one to say earlier. You mentioned Melroth or Melkar. I can't remember his name.

Melkor. Who is Morgoth?

Yeah, that's Morgoth. Yeah. For those who didn't know, same character. I say Morgoth. And he's saying that it is the same character that just. Names are weird.

Yeah. Tolkien has literally, like, at least five names for every single character. So.

Sorry. And every tree, it seems like.

And every tree.

Yeah, that's what I was like. It's just.

It's a hard thing because, like, yeah, everything she does ends up integral not only to the story of the Silmarillion, but everything that happened after, like, the Hobbit, I feel like a little bit less so. I mean, you have that, like, you know, the original sin Kind of idea of, like, the Silmarils, and that's why everything bad happens.

But, like, I think the Hobbit stands on its own as a story.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

But the Lord of the Rings, when you get to, like, you're talking about Sauron and the connections to Melkor, all that other stuff, it's like, well, now you kind of have to see the Ent. See who created the Ents. And then you're like, okay, Lord of the Rings doesn't work without Yavanna's pardon the Silmarillion like, at all.

Yeah, yeah, She's.

She's pretty huge, which is wild. I think you could probably. We could probably do the same with all Valar, but, you know, Yavanna seems to be.

Have a higher importance than I think I thought about before this episode.

Yeah. Yeah, me too. Because I was like, we'll talk about the Ents and then maybe we'll mention the two trees. That's literally.

It was my thought process, and I was like, what do you mean, mention the two trees? That's like the whole deal, man.

Yeah, dude. Yeah. Yeah.

I kind of got crazy preparing for this because I was like, oh, I missed this. It was my idea.

So I do want to ask you, since it's Arbor Day, how do you think that understanding the character of Yavanna and why Tolkien wrote this character into existence might help us in better appreciating the trees? Just trees in general, because obviously Tolkien cares about the trees. Ivana cares about the trees. Why should we care about the trees, Nick?

I speak for the trees. You know,.

I love the Lorax reference. I don't think we've done Lorax for Arbor Day yet, somehow. But I was thinking of, like, just. There's so many good quotes.

No, Cody cares for the woods as I care for them. Not even elves nowadays. Like, I'm not on anybody's side. Yeah. There's just so many, and it's like, who will shepherd the trees? Like, I love the ends.

Sorry.

No.

Why should we care about trees? What does all of this help us? Help motivate us?

Yeah, Yeah. I think a lot of people miss this about Tolkien in a lot of ways is that Tolkien was very much an anti.

I'm trying to think the best way to put this that's accurate.

I always say, like, anti industrial, but, like, I don't think he was, like, anti progress, but, like, correct. Yeah, yeah.

Industrial is great. Anti industrial. Basically just production for the sake of production. When it comes to the, you know, the cutting down of trees.

And part of this is informed by the way that he created. He grew up in a place called Sarehole Mill, which was just like a little country paradise.

And so when Tolkien came back, it was like the Scouring of The shire factories everywhere, 70s and 60s style brick houses, which are just the ugliest form of architecture across the Western world.

Indeed.

Gosh, yeah. When you look at old colleges that were made in the 60s and 70s, ugly red brick buildings.

But Tolkien, I mean, just the fact that trees are such a huge part. And Tolkien actually talks about, in letters and friends would talk about how he would just be really upset when people would cut down trees.

But the trees are ultimately how we have the beginning of the stories. The White Tree of Gondor is a symbol. The Ents are integral to saving things. And they're the ones who are left alone and chopped down.

And Tolkien feels sad about that.

And Tolkien even compares his entire Middle Earth project to a tree itself and hopes that his tree of his story will literally come alive in the afterlife.

And so I think that we should take the words of Treebeard seriously because even though they're his words, they're partially Tolkien's words because Tolkien wrote them. So.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I agree.

Care for the trees.

Yeah. And I love it. And I think to me, a lot of it boils down to I'm a visual person.

So sometimes the movies stand out more to me and sometimes the book does. It just depends the scene in the movie.

And you have Saruman having the Uruk Hai created and you see him tearing down trees and using industry to kind of create these new monsters so he can win the wars or, you know, whatever half power, whatever thing he's up to his new scheme. And like, visually seeing the destruction of the forest and then Treebeard looking out at it and going, he should know better.

And like, to me, the Maenar, since, you know, I think of the Maynard as saints, right? That's just. That's in my brain. That's what they are. I'm looking at like the church and leaders of our church and.

And how many of us, like, just sit by, do nothing as the trees are being torn down or like, we're okay with building these giant mega churches that have no function. And it's like, he should know better. And like, I feel that so deeply in the movie.

And I don't know, to me, like, a lot of it boils down that, like, yes, that's Treebeard, but why is Treebeard who he is. He doesn't get that. He doesn't say that line. That's not an important thing. Without Yavanna being the face behind Treebeard. There we go.

I plugged the series.

Well played. Well played.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And yeah, Tolkien, someone who served in the war, wrote these incredible stories. All this stuff and trees being so important to him. Yeah.

You know, I'm going to name Tolkien is my personal Saint of the trees. I love that.

I love that.

Yeah. Well, with that then, we do have to wrap this one up, but we have to give a recommendation for people.

I'm going to cop out and say that that $2 version of Silmarillion that you could get through Audible, that's also works as a Kindle. I think you buy it on Kindle and then it also works on Audible so you can switch between the reading and listening effortlessly.

That's my recommendation. That's just such a convenient way to read something. You never have to stop.

I'm gonna cop out too and say Rooster Fighter. Like, I really think it's so unique and weird and I. I've said this to friends.

I'm like, if you give it a chance, I want to just talk to people about it because it's so insane and awesome.

So Rooster 5, so far I've loved everything that Nick has recommended, so I'm going to be checking that out. Nick's. Nick is the saint of recommendations on systematic ecology. We're going to name that now, guys.

Speaking of which, Nick and I both recommend that you rate and review our show. Wherever you get your podcast, whether it's Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever.

It helps get our show noticed by others so that other people listen and we can keep doing this. What also helps us keep doing this is our financial supporters. Again, thank you, Tripp. We couldn't do this without you.

And your love for Tolkien continues to inspire us to keep loving him more.

Amen.

You're the best. Smooches, guys. If you want, you can get your own shout out on the becoming a member on the website, link in the description.

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It.