Joshua Noel, TJ Blackwell, Alex Matthews, and Liz Clyde dive headfirst into the complexities of mentorship and rivalry in their inaugural episode of "The Faces Behind Us." Kicking off the 2026 series, the crew explores the pivotal roles of Fire Lord Ozai and Uncle Iroh in shaping Zuko's journey in "Avatar: The Last Airbender." Right off the bat, they establish that while Ozai embodies the dark side of ambition and power, Iroh represents wisdom and compassion, proving that one’s path is often influenced by those who stand behind them. With a blend of heartfelt reflections and witty banter, they discuss the nuances of character development and the importance of compassionate mentorship. Tune in for a relaxed yet insightful conversation that’s bound to resonate with fans and newcomers alike as they unpack the dynamics of good versus evil through the lens of these iconic characters.

The inaugural episode of 'The Faces Behind Us' dives deep into the intricate dynamics between Zuko, Fire Lord Ozai, and Uncle Iroh from Avatar: The Last Airbender. The discussion is led by Joshua Noel, TJ Blackwell, Alex Matthews, and Liz Clyde as they dissect the mentor-mentee relationship that defines Zuko's tumultuous journey from antagonist to protagonist. They start off with the profound wisdom of Uncle Iroh, who serves as a beacon of hope and strength for Zuko, urging him to rise above despair and embrace his true self.

The conversation then shifts to Fire Lord Ozai, Zuko's father, whose oppressive nature and quest for power starkly contrast with Iroh's nurturing guidance. This juxtaposition highlights the critical role mentors play in shaping character arcs and influencing destinies. The crew also reflects on the broader implications of these relationships within the context of their own lives, exploring how figures of authority, whether mentors or tyrants, can leave lasting impacts on one’s journey. It's a heartfelt exploration of redemption, forgiveness, and the struggles of personal growth, all wrapped in a witty banter that makes the heavy themes accessible and relatable. As the episode unfolds, the hosts share personal anecdotes, revealing how their own mentors have shaped their lives. They delve into the significance of Uncle Iroh’s character, emphasizing his role as a transformative figure in Zuko’s life, often likening his wisdom and compassion to the nurturing qualities found in ideal parental figures. The group also debates the toxicity of Ozai’s influence, discussing how his authoritarian nature perpetuates cycles of shame and fear.

This nuanced discussion not only spotlights the characters’ complexities but also parallels the challenges faced in real-life mentor-mentee dynamics, making it a thought-provoking listen for fans and newcomers alike. The episode closes with reflections on the importance of surrounding oneself with positive influences and the impact of mentorship on personal development, leaving listeners with a sense of hope and encouragement to find their own Irohs in life. The episode serves as a delightful kickoff to the series, blending humor with heartfelt moments and insightful commentary. The engaging dialogue between the hosts sets the tone for what promises to be an exciting year of exploring the lives of those who shape the narratives we love. It's a must-listen for fans of Avatar: The Last Airbender and anyone interested in the intricate fabric of storytelling that weaves together mentors, enemies, and the heroes we come to cheer for.

Takeaways:

1. The complex relationship between Zuko and his mentors, Uncle Iroh and Fire Lord Ozai, highlights themes of redemption and the struggle for identity in Avatar: The Last Airbender.
2. Uncle Iroh's compassion and wisdom serve as a counterbalance to Ozai's ruthless ambition, showcasing the importance of nurturing relationships and personal growth.
3. The discussion emphasizes that characters like Iroh and Ozai reflect real-life dynamics of mentorship, influence, and the choices that shape our paths.
4. The podcast explores how Zuko's journey from villain to hero is deeply influenced by the contrasting philosophies of his two father figures.
5. Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own mentors and the 'faces' that shape their lives, drawing parallels to the characters in the Avatar universe.
6. Through humor and insightful conversation, the hosts demonstrate how pop culture narratives can provide valuable lessons on empathy, forgiveness, and self-discovery.

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Be sure to check out our merch, find extra content, and become an official member of Systematic Geekology on our website:

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Check out last year's annual theme, "Finding the Good":

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Listen to some of our other ATLA episodes:

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Check out other episodes with Joshua:

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Listen to every episode with TJ:

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Don't miss any of Liz's episodes:

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Hear every episode with Alex:

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You must never give in to despair. Allow yourself to slip down that road and you surrender to your lowest instincts. In the darkest times, hope is something you give yourself.

That is the meaning of inner strength. Today we will be discussing the one and only Uncle Iroh, who is the author of the quote that we started this off with. And of course, Fire Lord Ozai.

I am Joshua Noel. Nobody really cares about that. If I'm going to talk about something I'm kicking out on, I have two. I'm going to go with a no Man's Sky.

It's a video game I got during Christmas time on Steam. Gosh, it's incredible. A lot of the similar things of like Minecraft.

I guess I never got into Minecraft like that, but it's completely different animation. You're going through space, collecting materials, building space stations. It's awesome.

You know Josh, you may not know this, but that game, the worst launches of all time.

Yeah, I heard it was an awful game until like last year. They just had so many updates.

It's been a couple years. Yeah, they just keep updating the games for free.

Yeah, it's so cool. And I get to build my own mech suit. Just fine materials that build a mech suit.

It's a great game.

Now I am Iron man but like a good version because I hate Tony Stark. But anyway, I am also here of course with the one and only T.J. blackwell. He just heard.

I think he's surprised I've been playing no Man's sky which makes me think he has no Man's Sky.

I do. It's not installed but I had.

I want to see your. You build stuff. It's probably look better than mine.

Not good at it.

No.

But me, I've been geeking out on you. Wait for it. Night the museum. There's four movies.

Yeah.

Actually feel like most people don't know that. There's the three movies that are live action which was.

Yeah.

The third one, Secret of the Tomb. Robin Williams, his last movie. Phenomenal. It's great. They also made an animated movie a few years ago that's pretty good too.

I've watched all those over the past couple of days. For some reason I just had no.

Idea there was an animated one.

Yeah, good franchise. It's Pretty good.

That's pretty cool. And then, of course, we are also here with the one and only Alex Matthews. Alex, how's it going?

It's going good.

Yeah. What you been geeking out on lately?

Lately, I've been geeking out on Marvel, Rivals, and Repo with some friends and my siblings. I used to play no Man's Sky 2, but then I stopped because I got bored.

But that was a couple years ago, so I didn't know they had mechs, so maybe I should. It's still on my Xbox, so maybe I should try it.

But it's cool. The mech just lets me walk underwater like Pirates of the Caribbean style. And it. It's wonderful.

Rivals is also cool. He just been trying to get me for a minute.

What, you don't like Daredevil?

I don't like playing against him.

Yeah, that's innocent either.

Of course, we are also here with one of the main conspirators against me, Liz Clyde. How's it going?

It's going pretty well. Can't complain. Well, I can, but I won't.

Yeah, what are you and little Zuko geeking out on these days?

Well, my new name, son, because we can't decide on the name right now. Geeking out on studio Ghibli films because that's his nursery.

And so I've been trying to get, like, a lot of inspiration to see how I want to decorate it. But yeah. So if you guys know any fun baby names, please pass them my way.

Oh, name him Porco Rossi.

Oh, my husband might agree with that. That's one of my favorite Ghibli ones. Man, if it was a girl, May would have been so cute. But got a boy.

Yeah, I mean, he'll be awesome though. Boys are stinky, especially if they're engulfed in flames and sweaty like some of the ones we will be talking about today.

So it's gonna be a fun time. Before we get to that though, do have to ask people who are listening, rate, review our show wherever you get your podcast.

It lets people know that we exist and that helps get the word out. And we're trying to, you know, really kick off this whole engaging pop culture.

Genuinely Christians having real conversations and not just pushing Jesus into stuff. We want to have more conversations like this and it's more possible when more people know we exist. So rate and review. It helps.

We also want to thank one of our financial supporters. I'm going to attempt to say the name and TJ will correct me. Probably Gunner Burgum, maybe.

Yeah, Pretty sure that's right.

Sweet. Well, if that's your name, Gunner. We really appreciate you and your support. You're awesome.

I want to remind our listeners also that if you want your own shout out and for me to struggle to say your name, you can become an official member of Systematic Ecology on our website in the description. The same website actually has a shirt with our annual theme that we're kicking off today, the faces behind us. So check it out.

It has a lot of faces that might look similar to some of the other iconic characters we'll be talking about. On the back it has our logo there with the faces. It looks cool. I think. I actually especially like it in purple.

We were talking about purple before we started recording. I think the purple design is perfect and the front just has a Systematic Ecology looking nice, clean. Of course, comfort colors, I dig it.

So check that out. Also on the website. I'm just really gonna plug. You guys need to go to the website. We're gonna be doing an extra episode in this series.

Once a month we'll be going only to the website for members, but that includes free members. So if you wanna be a free member, you can do that on the website. Get some of those extra ep.

Later this month we're going to have TJ Christian Ashley, John Eardley and Herbie Ramsey discussing the monks who raised Aang from the Avatar, the last Airbender. So if you want to instead of hear about the Fire Nation, people want to hear about some airbending monks, go over there website. It's a good place.

Again, this is part of our annual theme. It's the first one, so the link won't actually be in the show notes for the playlist because I can't make a playlist with one episode.

So check back in, we'll have a link. It'll be in the description once we have more than one episode in the series. Yeah. So with that let's talk a little bit about what the.

What the series is. We voted about this on host. We've had this discussion other places if you guys want to like dig a little to see why we're doing this.

But rather than talking about the main characters in the IPs and stuff that we love, like Spider man, we're gonna be talking about the faces behind Spider man who inspires Peter Parker to be Peter Parker. So I want to talk about Uncle Ben, Aunt May instead of Peter Parker.

So in this episode we're gonna be talking about Uncle Iroh, Lord Ozai instead of Zuko. So that's gonna kind of be the theme as you go throughout.

We're gonna talk a little bit about Michael Scott and how he influences the people in the office. We got all kinds of fun episodes down the line. If you guys have a favorite one that you can remember that we're doing, you can shout it out.

But I'm struggling to remember them all. I know we're gonna do Garp, and that's gonna be fun. I love Garp. Yeah.

Yeah, that's gonna be cool.

Yeah. I think we're also doing some of the Vikings from How to Train youn Dragon at some point. Yeah.

This is probably my favorite one, though. And the easiest.

This is the one that I was like. I think this is the best one to start with because Uncle Iroh truly is just such an inspiring character to me. So I'm a huge Kingdom Hearts nerd.

The last one we're gonna do this year is gonna be a Kingdom Hearts one. I won't bore you guys with the details. Cause that'll be a whole episode. Because I can't help myself once I start. So I'm just not gonna start.

But if you go through, like, my Instagram, like, a lot of the feed is just random Kingdom Hearts material. And then just sprinkled in is just some random post that someone made of an image of Uncle Iroh in a quote. Because it's not.

Cause it's like my favorite fandom. It's just like, I almost always like quotes from Uncle Iroh. So that's what the feed gives me. Yeah. So let's go start with that.

What is everyone's history with Avatar the Last Airbender? I've been talking too much and need a breather. So I'm gonna. Alex, Alex, kick us off. What's your history with this franchise?

Okay, so I started watching Avatar Last Airbender, like, when it was on Nickelodeon. I saw all names, all the episodes I did watch. I think the either the first or second. I can't remember. I watched some of Legend of Korra.

Didn't finish it. Still haven't.

Same.

Like, I remember the last thing I remember watching from Legend of Korra was like, when the Avatar spirit, like, got destroyed or something. Spoiler alert. Sorry. But yeah, I've always been a fan of the Avatar Last Airbender.

Like, and I rewatched it again, like, as an adult, and it's just like, I don't know, like, all the things I picked up watching it, like, in my age versus when I first watched it when I was a Kid. It's like. It's a deeper story than you think. Like, we watching it? Yeah, it's pretty good.

It's definitely up there as my top 10 favorite shows, but yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. Tj. Tj, what are you. What's your history with Avatar, the Last Airbender?

Yeah, so I didn't have cable as a kid until, you know, like, it was after Avatar started running when we did get it, but I would still catch it, and I would be addicted.

And there was no way as a kid to, like, without Internet, at least to just watch something in order unless you went and bought the DVDs, which usually weren't out yet.

So I was just picking up bits and pieces of the Last Airbender for, you know, five years, six years, until it was on Netflix and I had unlimited data. And I was like, I can just watch it on Netflix on my phone.

Mm.

It's awesome.

Yeah, so I did that. And that was like, 10 years ago now, 11 years ago. But then I kept going. Watch Legend of Korra. I. I think it's better than most people.

I think it gets a lot better right after Alex stopped watching, like, season three. He's way better than season one and two, but I think it's good.

It's not as good as Last Airbender, but I do love the world that they built, the characters, the story.

I think Avatar succeeds in its subtlety, and it's hard to notice that as a kid and rewatching the series as an adult, you realize the small things that they're doing throughout the show that make it so much better than, you know, most children's shows. But also the books are pretty good. The Yangchen book and the Kyoshi book.

I have both those.

Those are both pretty good.

I haven't read the books, but I'll get to my. A minute. Liz. Liz, what's your history with Last Airbender?

Very similar to TJ's. I remember watching it a lot when it would come on, and I loved it.

I think because I'm a rigid person, I kind of, like, tuned in at the scheduled time, but then you just. You never know what you're missing or the bits that might be out of order.

But I have rewatched it probably at least twice in my young adult and adult life.

Love it.

And I have completed Legend of Korra, but I only watched it once because it was fine. Just not as good as Avatar. The last stickers.

You just didn't get the nostalgia like I wanted, like if there's a sequel coming, I want a little bit of homage and nostalgia. Not as much as I wanted, though.

More fan service. More fan service, but not quite, like, in. Not quite endgame level, just more.

Because, I mean, like, yes, you get to see, like, the older characters, but you really don't see that many. You know, I mean, the. The OG characters do not show up as much as I would want them.

To, but this year, we get the movie of all the adult, and that's gonna be awesome. Mm. Yeah. I'm so excited, man. So I said earlier, this isn't one of my favorite fandoms, and I feel like everyone's gonna think I'm a liar now.

I never finished Legend of Korra, so that's my claim to this not being one of my favorites. I remember when it came on, being old enough that, like, I knew that this was, like, substantial.

Like, I was like, this is actually, like, really good tv. And I would actually go to.

I remember it was Channel three for us was the TV Guide, and wait for it to scroll down to Nickelodeon and see what time it was playing.

And I had my VCR set so that it would start recording at that time because, like, I never knew what order it was coming on in, but if I just recorded every single time it was on, eventually was gonna get it all. So I had, like, the old VCR recording set up going on, and I caught it all early on.

I remember when it came to Netflix, watching it, me and my brother used to watch it once a year, all the way through together. Just kind of like a me and my brother's thing until, you know, we both went to college and moved out and did adult life things.

But I think even after once. Once there was like a month where we both lived back at home after we had gone to college. For the most part, we missed each other after that.

Like, when he went home, I was already gone. And when I went back home, he was at college, and it was a whole thing. But, yeah, for at least a month, we were both there.

I think we watched it again as adults together. Even one of my favorite standalone comics, Azula and Spirit Temple, incredible comic, is so freaking good. Yeah.

So just in general, I've always loved ATLA since it's been on, and even Christmas was trying really, really hard to explain to my mom that when me and Matt were talking about Avatar, we are not talking about the blue people. She just could not understand that that's not what we were talking about. It's okay. Yeah. Third one's really good. I haven't seen it. I haven't.

I haven't seen second one. The first one was just so derivative that I just know I was like, I don't think I care. Yeah, see?

No.

Well, they're still derivative. Watch.

So nice.

Much better.

I do plan on watching them all because I love the blue people land in Animal Kingdom. Now we're confused. Our audience if we keep talking about two different Avatars. So we're going to move on. Talk about Avatar the Last Airbender.

And I'm going to throw it back to TJ because I think he is the best at being brief. DJ could you briefly summarize Zuko's story in Avatar the Last Airbender? Or we'll start with just like, who is he?

Then summarize the story, because I don't think saying villain is right, but.

Well, it definitely is.

Saying villain also seems wrong.

It definitely is right at first, but Zuko is the son of the Fire Lord, who is the king of the Fire Nation. That's how that works.

He has become estranged from his father, and he shamed him, and he kind of exiled him a little bit, and he gave him his scar, which I think it's really funny. You picked a picture of him without the scar. That's super important. But he's got the scar.

There he goes.

So he is the estranged prince of the Fire Nation, and he. It is his mission to take out the Avatar. It's his whole revenge plot. That's who he is.

And through his character arc, he slowly overcomes that rage and. What's the word? He's very.

He's a very complex character, but he slowly realizes that he doesn't need his father's approval and comes to, you know, kind of join the. Join the good side. He's really not an antagonist as much as he's a Deuteragonist. Ozai is the antagonist.

Yeah.

It's crazy, though, because Avatar Last Airbender has this weird thing where, like, it was enough, like, an anime that I think it was a lot of people's stepping stone into getting into anime. But it also had a lot of that, like, Saturday morning cartoon vibes.

Like, Zuko had that role where you were like, oh, this is the bad guy that we want to watch lose every episode, you know, like, he had that at first where I was like, oh, this is a bad guy. I can't wait to hate him. And then they were just like, oh, actually, we're Gonna teach you that people aren't always bad when you think they're bad.

And sometimes that harder shell is actually hiding more complex things. And you're like, what? No. Then you start to love him and then you're like, man, how did I ever hate this guy? And then you're like, what? This is?

Yeah, yeah. It's an emotional roller coaster. Yeah.

And they do it so well.

They kind of strand him with Team Avatar and he's forced to grow and then he and Aang are growing together, so you can't really keep rooting against him.

Yeah, yeah. It's wild. Yeah. So he goes from like one of the main antagonists of the show to one of the main protagonists of the show.

And it's only a three season show, so it's still pretty wild that they were able to do this and do it well.

I guess I should have said for those who are watching the live action show on Netflix and haven't seen the cartoon, we're going to spoil the hell out of this. So be warned, bad news. Yeah. Yeah. So that's Zuko. We're not talking about Zuko though. We're going to talk about the faces behind Zuko.

So let's start off with the one that I feel like we probably have a lot less to say about Fire Lord Ozai for the main antagonist. I feel like he gets very little screen time actually.

Yeah. Well, I think it serves him though.

Yeah, he makes him more eerie. Yeah.

He's best consumed in small doses. It keeps him kind of mysterious. Every time he is on screen, he shows off his power. I think it's a good way to write a villain.

Yeah. Yeah. I can't decide if he's more like Donald Trump or Vladimir Putin, but he's definitely one of the two if he was in real world. Yeah.

Very power hungry, very honor through strength kind of mindset. How would you describe Fire Lord Ozai, Liz? And put you on the spot now?

Yeah. He's pretty much like a dictator, a conqueror. Very. He probably has daddy issues we don't know about.

He does Azulon beat that boy to death.

Is that in the comics? Yeah, See, I felt it. I felt it. But yeah, I mean, he is Zuko's father and so you just see how he has raised his two children.

I mean, like Zuko's, I'm sure we'll talk about her, so I won't talk about too much, but like we just see how their personality has been corrupt and traumatized and it has to do with this Man, a lot.

So, yeah, that boy is corrupt.

He is a poo poo head. If we want to keep it G rated.

Yeah. Yeah.

I. I think you can't talk about him or the Fire Nation in general because the Fire Nation as a whole is really what influences Zuko, the whole system.

And it's very much one of those, like, honor, shame, culture kind of things of like, you know, having that scar was a huge mark of shame for Zuko that he lost a fight.

Now everybody sees that he's a loser or, you know, having all these pins from, you know, whatever being this conquering hero or, you know, hero is not the right word. Conqueror. Yeah, it's like a show of honor or having more ships or having command. It's all about, like, your status. Yeah. Mm.

And it's not even. I feel like it's enough to say what their culture is like, that the scar is not shameful because it's a scar.

The scar is shameful because it didn't kill him.

Yeah. Yeah. If you. If you're gonna lose and you don't die, it means you. You didn't care enough to fight till the end. Yeah.

Alex, anything to add about a Fire Lord Ozai and what his character is like, what his role is?

Yeah, he's just really power hungry.

Very little humanity, I think, because all he cares about is like, conquering and power and like getting rid of anything and anyone that's in his way. Like, wasn't he still the Fire Lord when in that episode when they were trying to find all the water benders in that one tribe? Yeah, so, yeah.

When they took Katara's mom.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that's just an example of how, like, inhumane he is.

Like, he's just gonna get rid of anyone that's in his way and doesn't care. So he's a bad guy. And the fact that he has little screen time too, also, like, I think is also a good move because it solidifies that he's bad.

No room for sympathy, nothing.

Like, he's bad.

That's.

Yeah. Not all bad guys need nuance.

Yeah.

Some do. You get Zuko. But then, yeah, Ozai is just bad, man. He's just.

I appreciate when there's a. Just a bad character and there's no traumatic backstory.

Yeah.

Like, let us just hate them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think too, and we're going to touch on this a little bit more when we talk about Uncle Iroh.

But one of the things too, that really stands out is that contrast of Uncle Iroh's son fails in war, dies and that changes everything for who Uncle Iroh is and his compassion towards humanity. Meanwhile, the Fire Lord Ozai, Zuko loses and Zuko loses and Ozai's just like, you deserve to be scarred. You're banned from our country.

So you see this incredible compassion from Iroh who completely changes his character compared to his brother, Fire Lord Ozai, who's just like, no, I don't even want anything to do with my son if he's gonna be a loser. You know, it's like, wow, this guy is, he's bad. Yeah, yeah.

And it's because you're never away from Ozai during the show. Everything that is happening to the gang is because of Ozai outside of a couple of like filler ish episodes that are here and there.

But like explosion man, that's Ozai. Just everything, everyone that comes after them is because of Ozai. He doesn't need to be there.

Yeah, yeah.

And if he had gotten up and did it himself, maybe he could have not lost.

But yeah, yeah. But it's very much his whole motivation is just conquer the world, make the whole world the fire nation.

Because the more I conquer, the more honor I have because I clearly am better than everyone because I conquered them. Pretty straightforward motivation. Yeah. Alright, so with that then let's, let's move on to one of my favorite characters point blank.

I think just of all of anything, it's hard to find a character that's just more lovable than Uncle Iroh. Yeah. Before we get to the other stuff, Uncle Iroh, how important do you guys think he is? Well, just any of them. Uncle Iroh, Zuko, Firelord Ozai.

To you personally, how important are these characters? Because like, I don't know, for me, Iroh, I feel like my life would be worse if Uncle Iroh wasn't in it.

Or Zuko, that's my real uncle, as far as I'm concerned, that's my dad's brother.

Does your dad know that?

Probably not.

Okay. Yeah.

Bigger family, you never hurt nobody.

Yeah, but I think like, I don't know so much of just his personality and like how loving he was and forgiving he was and a story that, you know, as a kid you don't understand how stories impact you. I feel like so when I was first watching it, I'm like, this is just a story.

But I think what was really happening is like I'm deeply engaged with these characters and what's going on and I'm really involved. And to see one character in a world that's completely split by war because Fire Nation bad.

And then you have this one guy who is a fire nation who's like, just have some tea, it's okay.

But that's not all. He also did actively contribute to that war at one point.

Uncle Iroh is a character who's already been where Ozai is and realized that it's not what life's about.

Yeah. Which I'm going to call out me and TJ's other show. It's one of those examples of, like, why it's so powerful to see someone who's changed their mind.

Because, like, I think without humility and the ability to change your mind, unity is impossible. You always are going to have polarization.

You're always going to have people like Fire Lord Ozai trying to conquer everybody else, but being able to say, wait a minute, maybe I was wrong and rethink things. It's a big deal.

And yeah, calling out our other show because TJ and I on whole church just did a whole episode about things we've changed our minds on recently. In the last seven years. Not really recently, but, you know. Seven years. Yeah. Liz, what about. What about you? Is it any of these characters, like, what.

What do they mean to you?

I enjoy them greatly, but then I don't bond too much, but I think that's just a me.

Yeah.

As a traumatized child problem. Not really the Avatar problem. You know what I mean? Love Uncle Iroh.

I mean, without him, like, Zuko wouldn't have, like, felt any kind of love, like, at all. I remember I did cry whenever. Gosh, that scene when Zuko was like. Like, when Zuko was like, how could you forgive me?

Or how like something he was like, I wasn't afraid. What was it now? I can't think of it, but, like.

He was disappointed in you. I was afraid that you lost your way.

Correct.

I almost started with that quote.

Yeah. I was never disappointed in you, but I was just afraid you lost your way. And I'm like, what? I mean, like, I wish my dad would tell me that.

You know, I remember thinking that, like, what the freaking heck.

Yeah. Just the level of compassion and love and it's just like, I don't know.

Something's got to be in those writers to be able to create a character like this, like, man, for you to.

Be able to feel the compassion for. From the screen is very impressive.

Yeah.

Those writers were working something out in that writing room.

Yeah. Well, that's also Why I chose the image I did on YouTube. I didn't want to get a picture of him doing anything powerful or with a cool quote.

I like this kind of, like, silly picture of him because he is so complex. He's silly and funny. He's compassionate, loving, and deeply wise, and he's freaking powerful.

But, like, when I think of, like, I think it's a lot of, like, when I think of, like, Jesus, I think of Jesus smiling and goofing off. So I think when I think of Iroh, I like to see these moments where he's just kind of happy and being a little goofy, you know? Yeah.

I like to think of Iroh when he's super jacked in prison.

I forgot about that. That was awesome. Yeah, that was good.

That was awesome.

Yeah. Alex, what are you. What do. Not just Uncle Iroh, but any of these characters, what do they mean to you?

Well, yeah, piggybacking off of, like, Liz. Like that scene with Iroh forgiving Zuko into prison like that. I don't know.

Like, every time I see or think of Iroh, I, like, get sad because I feel like he lost a lot. Like, he went through a lot, like, a lot of hard times, but he still, like, chooses, like, the path he did of, like, peace, happiness, and all that.

And it's just like, wow, like, anybody could change. Unfortunately, not everybody changed, but he's just really cool. Like, he's a good example of, like, redemption, forgiveness. Have some tea.

When times are hard, like, I don't know. He's really cool.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it's easy.

It's easy to just, like, pass over, like, the part of Iroh's life that we are witnessing because he's getting a second chance to raise his son in Zuko. And that's so important for IROH as a character. Yeah, it just doesn't get talked about a lot, really.

We only get that one episode, which is the saddest episode in the show because of Iroh's like, four minute clip.

Yeah.

But it doesn't talk about it a whole lot other than that.

Yeah.

But that's all it really took.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think I'm gonna be a little weird. I'm gonna describe an emotion that I get when I see Iroh because, I don't know, I don't have a name for it.

So, like, a lot of times when I feel challenged, usually it feels more, like, sharp, you know, like. Like I need to go do something. When I see Iroh, it's almost like a deep melancholy kind of challenge.

Like, I feel deep in my soul that I need to be more like this, you know, that I'm like, I am not that compassionate. And I, like, that's always what I feel when I see him. Just. Even the silly pictures, I just immediately.

That emotion just stirs up in me and I don't know. But, yeah, I think that's what Jesus.

Is supposed to make you feel like. I think that's what they tried to teach us in. In our. In our. Each of our churches.

Yeah.

Our four particular churches.

They just don't have as many pictures of Jesus around. I don't know, man.

Yeah, there's not.

They animated it better, maybe.

Yeah. I think that's what it is.

Yeah.

It's like that deep personal challenge, like, for your life.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. When I think of Jesus, I think of more of, like, a closeness, like, relationship rather than like a deep challenge.

I don't know what it is. Jesus doesn't challenge me enough.

Right. Well, don't say that's on an emotional.

Level, but it's fine. Anyway, we're gonna go ahead and move on.

He will.

The spirit challenges me. Yeah. I think reading about Jesus just mostly makes me feel hope. Anyway, Jesus and Uncle Ira are two different characters.

We'll talk about Jesus some other time. For now, I want to break down, since there's so much more to talk about with Uncle Iroh than I think there was Fire Load Ozai.

I kind of want to do it in parts first. What I'm sure is everyone's favorite part, especially T.J. you want to talk a little bit about Uncle Iroh as the dragon of the West?

Yeah, he's so cool, man. Iroh as, like, the strongest general in the Fire Nation army.

The.

The Iroh that we don't really get to see much of is the Dragon of the west, the man who, you know, busted through the walls of Ba Sing Se, failed the siege. But, you know, still, he did it eventually. But that's just such a cool name. You ever thought about the name the Dragon of the West?

Do you know where all of the Fire Nation lives? In the West. That's where all of them live. They called I Rode the Dragon of the West. So, yeah, just put that out there. But it's cool.

We find out about his nickname long before we ever see him get up to any business. And just thinking about it and that build up is so fun. It's like.

Yeah.

Mysterious. It makes you ask those questions, like, oh, who is Iroh, really? I can't wait to find out.

Yeah, Yeah. I think great thinking about this part of his. His history to me too. It's like one super cool.

Because you just don't think of, like, the nice gentleman who's always trying to, like, get everybody to drink some tea and sit down and calm down. Like, oh, yeah, that guy used to be the absolute most powerful conqueror of the Fire Nation.

Like, he's arguably as powerful or more powerful than his brother, who is the Fire Lord. Like, it's like what that guy's like, yeah, he's just that powerful and just chose to stop fighting, which I think too.

What's so cool about that to me is not only did he just choose to stop fighting and, like, you're like that character, really, when you think about it. Aang without Iroh, I think Aang does not succeed.

I think Aang just dies at some point during all this because Zuko and Azula probably would have got him, but Iroh didn't save Aang with force. He is arguably the strongest character in the world, but saved Aang through compassion. Incredible. Just great storytelling. Yeah.

Liz, Alex, anything else about Iroh as the Dragon of the West?

No. I mean, I would argue when you said he used to be, did he ever stop being the most powerful?

Probably not.

That's what I'm saying. You probably didn't see him.

We don't.

We just don't see him do a whole lot during Sozin's Comet. Like, we do see him, you know, Re siege ba Sing se.

Yeah, but being the most powerful the rest of the white doesn't mean you show off the most. You know what I mean?

No, I just wanted them to.

Gotcha.

Yeah. It would have been cool to just watch him be like, oh, by the way, guys, watch this. Yeah.

Because we get to see Ozai raising, like, a continent from a blimp. I could have done that, man.

That's crazy. Yeah. Alex, anything to say about Higher? Was the Dragon West?

No. I mean, you already said what I was going to say, so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just a needle. Somebody listening? Probably. As people who currently live in the West, I also do think about, like, all of the people who.

I don't want to make it a conservative democrat thing, but, like, there are a lot of people who are okay with what ICE is doing to a lot of innocent civilians in our country right now or all this other stuff. And to think about the fact that, like, that's who Iroh was actually. He was just completely fine destroying people just to be.

Yeah, give me more Honor. And to think, wait a minute. All of the hate that maybe I have for people who are behaving this way, one of them might just one day become Uncle Iroh.

So it's like, ah, I don't know. That also challenges me to think of, like, I think that that's a true statement. Anybody can change.

So you're haunted by. Haunted by Pete Hegseth, Uncle Iroh.

I am now. Now that you've said that. Okay. So let's move on. Uncle Iroh. Also, when we first see Uncle Iroh, he is going along with Zuko.

So Zuko is being banished, but he's told that he can regain his honor if he captures the Avatar and Uncle Iroh goes with him. And it kind of feels a little weird, like you're being banished.

And the brother of the king, basically, the emperor, is like, you know, I'll tag along. Why not? He doesn't even do that much. It seems like. Yeah. Yeah.

It's. Cause he wanted that chance.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, he's just a good uncle.

Yeah.

I mean, he's like, I'm not gonna, like, let him be alone. I didn't really think anything of him. Like, he's a quality dude. Probably was sick of how the Fire nations was acting anyway. So he wanted an escape.

I guess so.

Yeah. It's interesting because you find out a lot more about what he's doing and why he's doing it later on. So he does have kind of dual motives here.

But, I mean, well, you said you're gonna spoil it, so you can kind of just say secret tunnel. Secret tunnel. Best part of Avatar.

It does also have to feel good to, like, go on a tour of the world.

Yeah. See everything again.

But not as the dragon of the west, the, you know, great conqueror of the Fire Nation.

Yeah. Instead of a gentle old man who wants to make tea. Yeah.

Just wants to make tea. And I just love that. Like, he's like, so we can just set up a tea shop and start a new life.

So I'm sure that was probably his hope all along, because no one knew the Avatar was gonna show up. Right. Like, he hasn't been seen in.

Yeah.

Forever. So he was probably hoping just to help Zuko start over.

Yeah. What's like, two. Two of my other favorite quotes from Uncle Ira you get, like, in this era is like, one.

He's like, I know you're not supposed to spill over. Spilled. Cry over spilt tea, but it's just so sad. I love that. And then he's so funny.

I did that one where he's like, like, we just, you know, start a new life, have a tea shop. And Zuko's like, I don't want to start a new life or start a life here. That's what he said. Zuko says, I want to start a life here.

And El just straight comes back with this, like, really deep. I mean, life's gonna happen wherever you are anyway. And you're like, good point.

And then they open a tea shop.

True. But yeah, so Alex, TJ started on this for Uncle Iroh. This also is a little bit like a second chance at raising a son. You expound on that.

Like, why do you think maybe this was so meaningful for. For him to see Zuko stranded by his father and realize that he had another chance here?

Well, I can't remember exactly how his son died, but didn't his son die, like, in a. Like in a battle or something?

Yeah, yeah. The Siege of Basing, say, Is that right?

Yeah, he died in the Siege of Ba Sing.

Okay, well. Well, then, yeah, like, first one.

I don't know, maybe because, yeah, he didn't want Zuko to follow in, like, his dad's footsteps, and I'm sure, like, his own son was following in Iroh's footsteps and ended up dead. And so he just didn't want the same thing to happen. So he wanted to, I guess, break the cycle that the family was going through through Zuko.

So, yeah. Yeah. Well, to touch on the dual motives thing, and this is. You know, we said spoilers, right?

I definitely think a large part of it was he wants, say, this is, like, another chance to have a son. My son died because I thought my honor was more important than anything, and I went into war. He sees his son die.

I'm going to do a little bit of backstory here. When he sees his son die, it changed him fundamentally. He's like, wait a minute. Maybe this whole honor shame thing is just stupid.

Maybe our whole entire philosophy about life is just wrong. And then he gets in this mindset of, like, he doesn't like war at all. He wants peace, which is why we don't see him do so much fighting. He hates war.

War is what killed his son. He no longer wants to be a warlord. And that's when he becomes. I forget the name of it, but he becomes part of the organization with the White Lotus.

Do you know what he was called? Yeah, but he had a specific title in it.

Anyway, so he's part of this secret organization that's trying to Keep the Avatar alive, because the entire role of the avatar is to end the war and let us all have peace on earth. And he's like, yeah, war killed my son. I'm over this. So he wants to protect the Avatar.

And what you find out is, even though he did go with Zuko because he loves Zuko, and this is, like, another change for his son, he also is constantly secretly sabotaging it so that Zuko cannot catch Aang, which is also just really funny because you think he's just this goofy old man, just, you know, hanging out, supporting his nephew. Then you're like, wait a minute. Nope. He was part of a secret organization, was sabotaging stuff the whole time. He's awesome. Yeah.

So that's kind of the dual motives there. We've mentioned it. Alex and Liz mentioned it a few times. You want to talk about the betrayal? Zuko betrays uncle Iroh. What happens here?

How does Iroh handle it? Y' all want to get into it a little bit?

Alex, Liz, I can't remember exactly, like, what he did to portray him, but pretty much, Zuko had a chance to redeem his honor, to go after the Avatar. And that's when, like, uncle Iroh was like, no, we can start over. You don't have to choose this life.

And so Zuko pretty much kind of sold him out, so. And betrayed his uncle, who never left his side, which is really sad. But, I mean, we all stray a little bit, I guess.

But, man, even in jail, uncle Ira was, like, a g. Like, pretending to be senile and really, like, keeping up his regimen and whatnot. If I ever got locked up, I would want to channel my inner uncle Iroh.

But, yeah, I mean, like, it was a powerful separation, but as we said before, even more powerful, like, coming together. And then, like, Zuko, I feel, like, needed to be alone and grow and kind of see for himself, to kind of go on his own little journey.

Yeah.

I can't remember exactly what Zuko did to portray him, like, how it was set up.

I can help if no one else remembers, but if Alex remembers. Yeah, I'll let her take it away.

I've mostly blocked it out. I don't remember because it makes me dislike Zuko.

It's the trauma. We don't think about that part.

I forgot.

Basically, Zuko kind of finds out that Iroh's been sabotaging him, doesn't want him to capture Aang. Zulo shows up and offers Zuko the chance to help her capture Aang and bring her Bring him back.

And Zuko goes with his sister Azula, betraying his uncle so that he might get his dad to love him and get his honor back, basically. And I think part of that reconciliation was UKO realizing his dad's never really been a dad to him, but Iroh has.

And that's another reason it was just so, just so freaking powerful. Yeah. Okay. Context added. Alex, anything else to say about this moment?

I know you guys have already brought it up, but shouldn't give you a chance to say something else if you.

You know, I can't really think of much. I think. Yeah, everybody just touched up on everything. I think I forgot that he also like kept up with himself in the prison, like acting crazy.

Then when they're back to turn, he was like, like he, he always had that dog in him. Like Dragon of the west never left. Don't play with Iroh.

Yeah.

Like, even from the beginning they walk away. You think that he's just like a silly uncle, like, I'm just here for the vibe. But no, whole time he had a plan and agenda.

Like he's cool, sort of a g. Yeah.

I do think there is also a part of it where Iroh really wanted to go with Zuko. Because if Commander Zhao had ever tried to act sideways towards Zuko, Ira would have stopped that.

Oh yeah.

There's not a single person on that whole boat who could have stopped Iroh.

That's right. I forgot that he had a commanders and people with him to kind of like babysit him.

Yeah, yeah, but I do, I love it so much. Like his prison visitors leave, he jumps right up on that cage, starts doing his one arm pull ups while he eats.

Freaking incredible. Yeah.

Freak.

Awesome, man. So we've kind of gone through the characters, I think, as much as we can.

How important is it to uplift characters like Uncle Iroh and even Firelord Ozai in our public discourse today? Like, are characters like this still relevant or are they just fun and make us feel good?

Or do we see like something in our real world that we're like, maybe we need to uplift characters like this in our public discourse?

DJ yeah, it's super important to have strong role models regardless of what age you are, because I think most of our listeners are still a little bit younger than Iroh.

You can still look up to him probably, but to have someone who shows you such a strong, positive example of what, what you can be to others, I think is more important than anything else. And in a media that is a lot more easily consumed than some other potential role models like Jesus Christ.

But Iroh's there.

Iroh's there, and he's already a white guy, so you don't have to lie about that. Well, he's white. Ish.

He's white.

Passing. All right, well, on that note, Liz, how relevant are characters like Iroh and Fire Lord Ozai to us today?

I think the biggest thing is just to very loosely compare it to kind of even my job. Uncle Iroh is telling Zuko his. The paths available to him.

Because a lot of the times you don't know, you're just so focused on seeing right in front of you, you don't know the different avenues you have.

And so with me working at a school, my biggest job is to talk to high school students as a recruiter and be like, hey, my school may be great for you, but, you know, there's so many options. What are you thinking about doing in your life? Oh, you're thinking about the military.

Well, why are you, like, helping them think through all the avenues that they have? Because I'm like, well, let's think about your lifestyle.

If you want to have a family one day and you want to do this, you're not going to be able to flip burgers at McDonald's with the lifestyle you want 10, 15 years down the road. You want to join the military, great. Why do you want to join the military? Do you just want a free education?

Because there's other ways to make your education affordable without joining the military. So just kind of having those role models to like, to help you think and see all the paths in front of you.

Because a lot of times, especially if you're desperate and you don't think there's no other way, there's usually a way. And so, I mean, even a lot of people in prison right now, they was.

They would say they would benefit science shows if they had availability of, like, mental health at an early age and just like, someone to help counsel them at an early age. And they would have, like, made different choices in life. So.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was good stuff. Alex, how about you? Any ways you see that these characters are still relevant to us or you personally or whatever?

Yeah, I even touched on it earlier.

Like, IROH is a good example that, like, anybody can change and, like, break away from, like, generational cycles and things and choose to be better and just like, live better and just change for the better. So, like, anybody can do it. It's possible, it's good, it's tough. But if you, like, keep it up and be kind to yourself. It's possible.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it really helps a few different ways. I think this, it's still really relevant is.

I like that the fire nation is just bad because all of us, like, regardless of where you fall, like, we're in a very polarized world today. Everyone has someone that we're like, oh, they're the bad guys. Republicans, Democrats, Russia, China, America, you know, whatever.

And I think it really helps that these are the bad guys.

But we also know that two of the most powerful, compassionate, you know, whatever characters, because I think Zuko, by the end of it is an incredible character. Him and Iroh came out of Fire Nation, the bad guys, the very clear bad, bad guys.

So I think that makes it really relevant to uplift these kind of characters and to have this in our conversation, especially in such a polarized world as today.

Yeah, it's really important to have someone like Ozai at the top to show that one bad apple does not make the grove bad.

And the show goes through great length to make you know that like with Aang going to fire nation school, yes, they push against them because they are deeply victimized by the propaganda machine that is the fire Nation. But getting to know Aang, they, you know, get open to these kids.

They open these kids up and like, they have the big dance party and just to show that the fire nation is just full of people, normal, regular people led by an absolute monster.

Yeah, yeah. My other thing is actually I think we do live in a world that is very honor shame based.

It's very constantly get the promotion, get the raise, get the next whatever, you know, make sure you have a family, you have this big a house, you know, like, we live in a world of a lot of expectations, of a lot of like constant push to keep getting more, to keep being the best, you know, no one's like, oh, I want to be second best. And we do live in an honor shame culture. Not to the extent of the fire Nation. You don't get a scar and you're shamed for life.

But like, we do live in a culture where like, certain things are looked down on. You guys probably know what I'm talking about. And I think it helps to uplift stuff like this where Ozai is what the ultimate thing is.

If you achieve all of your things, you get all of the wealth, all the success. Your best hope is to become Firelord Ozai.

But I think you don't become uncle Iroh until you look at it and go, actually, maybe all this stuff is meaningless. What actually matters is family and loving people, having peace, having unity.

And I don't think you get there until you kind of give up on the constant grind, you know? Yeah. So I think that's what makes this relevant too. Yeah. Okay with that. Would you guys rather be Zuko or Iroh?

Would you rather be Zuko and learn from Uncle Iroh, or would you rather get all of the traits of Uncle Iroh yourself and have to train a Zuko Zuga? That's fair.

I don't want to. I just really don't want to skip from 26 to 65.

I mean, that's fair, you know? Yeah, I get that.

I already had my angsty childhood and dealt through a lot of anger and therapy, so I don't want to go back. I choose Uncle Iroh.

Perfect. Alex, would you rather be Iroh or Zuko or Fire Lord Ozai? If you want? You know, you could be him.

You know, I feel like. I don't know. I think maybe Zuko because.

I don't know, trying to mentor other people is stressful because, like, you can't force them to get right and then watching them, like, listen to the advice you give and then do the opposite. Anyway, I can't do that anymore.

So, yeah, let me be. I feel you. I feel it, man. Man, my gut wants to go with Liz and be like, I'd rather be a glyrogen, but I'm gonna be a little bit depressing.

I think the person that most reminds me of Uncle Iroh in my life was my grandfather, who died the earliest of any of my grandparents. And I don't think I really appreciated him for who he was.

So part of me, I think I'm gonna end up going with Zuko because I'm like, man, I just kind of want to have someone like that in my life again and, you know, just go on a ship and hang out with him all the time. That sounds great, actually. I think I'd just be a terrible Zuko because I'd be like, yeah, let's just drink tea and play chess. I'm down. Let's do it.

Yeah.

Pie show. I don't think you could learn pie show. It's so hard to teach Josh.

That's true. Uncle Iroh might be able to teach you. Maybe. Yeah, maybe. All right, so a couple quick last questions before you start wrapping this up.

How do you guys think we might be able to identify someone in our own lives who could be like, Uncle Iroh or Fire Lord Ozai? So that we know, you know, who to avoid, who we want to keep around as mentors in our life. You know, how do.

How do we distinguish the ozai's and the Irohs in our own life and, you know, actually get the right people around us? It's a discipleship.

I think there's one easy way for both of them to identify ozai. You want to avoid the people who, when they. When it's time to correct someone, they do it very publicly. They do it as publicly as they can.

They make sure everyone sees it.

Mmm.

Like, if you're, you know, you work in a store and you mess something up, if your boss sends that message, like, hey, you did this wrong to everyone.

Mmm. There are no grape.

They're an ozai. Theranosai. It's a lot harder to identify an ira.

It's a lot harder because most people aren't just waxing and waning poetically about the mistakes of their past, you know, Typically, though, I find it best to find someone who never raises their voice in anger. Someone who is calm but not like. Not like eerily calm. Not like freaky calm, you know, not stereotypical.

There's a line. Yeah, yeah.

Not serial killer calm, but steady.

Yeah, yeah.

At least that's how I feel.

I think I agree. See, the thing is, I feel like we're switching roles here. You gave, like, a really good, serious answer, and all I can think of is, like, silly.

I don't know if these count answers, but, like, I think they might be right.

My grandpa's shoulders do feel like iros of that uncertainty.

So, yeah, he's ira. For some reason, the things that come into my mind are like, wake up earlier. Do it in more cracker barrels. If your church has like a.

Like an elder's breakfast, be there. You'll find an iro.

That's.

Yeah, that's true.

Like, that's my rate. Or just start asking old people how they feel about tea. You know, I think it could work. Yeah.

Go start following the Chinese tea ceremony guy on TikTok.

True, true.

But I love that guy.

You know, actually, I'm gonna do, like, advice that people will hate. I legitimately think. Well, it's harder to do this with older people because they don't aren't on social media as much.

But I do legitimately think somewhat social media does say more about them than we like to think it does. If they're constantly posting about how bad one thing is or another thing, or like, hate. Even if they're hating Donald Trump all The time.

I hate Donald Trump. Trump. But if that's all their posts are, that's not an Uncle Iroh. If Uncle Iroh is posting about tea and calmness and steadiness, you know.

Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna advise using social media, which is something we're supposed to advise people not to do, I think, but it's fine. Alex, what about you?

How do you find the irohs and ozais?

To me, you find an ozai by, I guess somebody who's a lost cause, like, just got just like, super selfish, doesn't care about what his. How his actions or their actions affect other people.

And like, even if, like, they were to get help or something and they just, they're like, oh, this is who I am. It is what it is. Like, I feel like that's a nose. I like, they're just so rigid and not being better.

And then Iroh, I think you can find an Iroh in like, an older person, or it doesn't even have to be an older person, but somebody at least older than you, I think, who is just content with where they're at in life. Like, content and happy and like, you ask them for advice and they'll give it to you.

Or they're just really transparent about things they've been through. I think of my grandpa.

I think that, I think about it, he was definitely very much like an ozai, like, homeboy, been through a lot in his past, but, like, as he got older, he was, like, open, more open about mistakes he's made and things he's done. And he would, like, tell me, my siblings and our cousins, like, hey, don't be like me. Don't be like a family. Like, be better and stuff like that.

So, yeah, yeah, yeah, like that. I do think in general, IROs are usually older people, but not always. They smile more. I think that's a thing, too.

They're going to be smiling more than other people. But yeah, I like what you said about the ozai stuff, too. I don't think I did anything with ozai in my thing.

I actually, I think part of how you recognize ozais are how much they talk about themselves or when they talk about you, like how they're wording it. If it sounds like honor shame thing. Like, I live in a church world, so a lot of my examples are going to be churchy, I guess.

But they're like, well, if you do that, how's that going to make the church look? If they're saying stuff like that, they're more concerned with the honor of the church, their honor or somebody else.

So like, well, this is my, you know, this is our church or this is, you know, all the me our. How does it look? How does this appear to other people?

And I'm not saying appearances don't matter, but I think if that's the main kind of stuff they're talking about, probably an Ozai and I super light. I like, I really want to highlight, I'll probably share the reel of what TJ said with that too.

Of like are they publicly correcting you or are they pulling you aside and trying to be helpful? Are they making an example out of it and doing that shame culture thing or yeah, so I think like what TJ said there was super important.

Liz, how about. Did I already ask you how we find Iro's and Ozai's?

No, but I'm kind of very similar with everyone like as far as ozais looking for self centeredness. And usually the loudest person in the room is one of the dumbest people in the room in my experience.

So if someone's like super loud self centered, they think they have all the answers. Definitely do not want them leading me.

I always say, and since I'm in the church world too, I always say with discernment, usually I'm like, they're very impressive, but their character's not going to keep them there in that leadership position.

And you give it time and usually you see that it's right because you can be very impressive like a fire lord, but your character, there's going to be a white lotus coming because it's not going to keep you in that position, right? So you just have to like really be observant and listen more than you speak.

Because even finding an Uncle Iroh, that's going to take time because I mean, are they just an old man who likes to drink tea or is that someone like you can invest? So if you're looking for an Uncle Iroh, I think a really practical thing to do is look at your friends and then look at your friends, parents.

How did they get raised? How are they speaking about like all of you guys? Did you guys talked about a grandparent or an uncle or like someone that was a mentor in your life?

So they're out there and they're usually not diamonds, you know, like so, you know, diamonds in the roughy because as you guys already talked about them, they're not, they're already shining, they're not in the rough. So like I kind of was like, well, I'm Looking at, like, you know, now thinking about how I want to raise my kids.

I'm literally looking at kids in the church right now and, like, some of our staff leaders, and I'm like, I want you to teach me how to be a parent, because I can see the fruit of their leadership and their children. So I can see which kids listen, I can see which kids are respectful.

So it's just a lot of observing on your end and not going with what seems impressive.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's. Man, you guys are so wise. You guys might be IROs.

Well, that's why I wanted to be in IRO.

No. Yeah, I like all that. Yeah. I. Man, I feel like Will's not gonna like this, but I think Will Rose is very close to an iro.

You know, personality is definitely different. Will's a lot more energetic. You know, I think that's fair to say. But as far as, like, calming presence in my life. Will Roses.

Like, when I am going through chaos or, like, I'm stressed out, I call Will. For those who don't know, Will Rose is my pastor and also one of the other hosts of Systematic Ecology.

Um, so the way that I found Will Rose, it's an Uncle Iroh. Start a podcast. That's how you do it, guys.

Yeah, just invite podcast.

Invite every pastor you can on the podcast until you find one that you're like, this is the guy. No, but more serious notes. Last. Last series question, we talked about how to find iro's and Ozai's. How do I not be an Ozai and be an iroh?

You know, like, there are people in my life who are going to look up to me inevitably, because I'm a human who lives amongst other humans. And I do have temptations sometimes. Like, right now, I am actively trying to get a promotion. I don't think I'm doing it because I want the status.

I think I'm doing it because I want money. But sometimes you need money. But you know what I mean? I can be that cutthroat. Oh, I need to get ahead and just ignore everybody else.

And it's all about the status. I am in danger of becoming a fire lord. In that sense. I'd much rather be an iroh. Just keeping it to my own context.

I wish if I'm going to be a general manager, even if I'm not discipling people, I don't want to be a mentor. Realistically, if I'm a general manager or a manager in general, funny, someone is looking up to me. DJ is a service leader at his store.

Someone is looking up to tj. How do I be an Iroh instead? Because he's short. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, Liz, how do TJ and I be an iroh instead of an ozai?

Being in that position myself, being one of the pastors at our church, I make it known. Even though I have something to say, I always, like, is this wise to say? It is this edifying to say right now?

There's a reason why I'm like saying, do not be the loudest person in the room. Because I like to think my husband and I, we do the same thing, Taylor.

We like to think when we do speak, it holds more weight because we don't speak often.

So when I have something to say and I'm really like trying to give you advice, there's not as much noise blocking it because I'm not just talking hot air. So when I'm calling someone like, hey, you're kind of being dumb right now. We really need to realign because I haven't.

I don't say that often or I don't joke around with them often. It's like, girl, you suck. You know what I mean? It holds more weight because I don't joke like that.

So just kind of choosing your words wisely and always wanting to call people up and not out, make sure you know what you're talking about. Don't be dumb. Don't talk about something you don't know. So you don't know if you don't know it.

Well, before. I like that, but before letting Alex have something to say, I'm going to make it more complicated. She's going to love me. Complicating this.

We're also all podcasters here.

TJ and I have more than one podcast, so there's this extra tension of like, obviously, like, I want our podcast to be known because, like, more listeners are cool. We don't just do this just cause they're a part of it.

I think the stuff's important, especially not that this show isn't important, but whole church to me is just something I care a little bit more about. It's about church unity. And that's something that's really dear to my heart. And it's like, yeah, of course I want it to be the biggest thing.

And it's really easy sometimes to justify, well, I'm going to do this. I'm going to spend money, I'm going to advertise. I'm going to be the best Unity podcast, whatever.

Because I want people to hear my word and what we're saying is important. So it's easy to justify constantly wanting to be the best and have the loudest voice.

And at what point am I doing it because I want people to hear a message that's important? At what point am I just being a noseye? And it's all about my podcast being number one. And that's where I'm going to do a pre recommendation.

Phil Vischer writes a book, me, myself and Bob, and he's the author of Veggietales.

And he talks about how he kind of fell in this trap that he thought, well, since I'm doing something for God, for the Bible, of course, whatever means to make it the most well known ever is completely, completely fine.

And how he actually suffered greatly because he had that mindset and realized after his Uncle Iroh moment, actually, maybe it's not about being the most loudest Christian out there and maybe other things are more important and God's gonna do with his word what he wants to do anyway. How do we be an Iroh instead of an Ozai in the podcast world?

As I just said, like, don't always want to talk and I have something to add on to yours. I always want to caution, do not confuse like, humbleness or wanting to, like, you know, not be so overpowering with not having drive.

You know what I mean? Because of course, if you're going to do something, you want to do it well, right? So I always go back to what's the heart?

Because same thing with growing our church. Yes, we have a large church. Yes, we want to, we want to grow. Of course.

We want people to pay tithes because we would like to pay the staff, we would like to do missions, we would like to do the community. Right? That's always a goal. And those aren't bad goals.

But it's the heart to try and become a megachurch so we can look impressive on social media or it's the heart for people to know Jesus and find purpose and find a safety in him and like love, you know. So I always go back to the heart. Like you got, I mean, even with your promotion, have drive, right?

Have get that raise, get that money because that's going to help your family, that's going to help you reach and be a blessing to others. So having striving is not bad. And I feel like in our world today, a lot of people want Christians to be content with supportness.

I work a very high stress job and I make a lot of Money. And people are like, you should not. You should be poor and be a Christian.

I'm like, no, I like making a lot of money, and I like being crazy generous with my money, too. So as you grow whole church and even this podcast and strive to get a raise, always just do a heart check. Why are you doing it?

Is it to glorify yourself or to glorify God?

Yeah, no, I like all that.

Like, having a balance with humility and, like, your heart poster and the drive and the reason why you're doing what you do. That's basically it. Like, she already said majority of what I was gonna say, but.

And then also, like, when you were talking about your question, like, I don't know, I kind of thought of Paul the Apostle for a little bit and there. And, like, Ira was kind of similar.

Like, Paul, he was doing some crazy things like persecuted Christians, but he thought that he was doing it to further the church until Jesus Caleb was like, hey, check yourself. Like, that's not it. And until you get it, I'm gonna take your eyesight. And so, like, Paul had to be, like. Had to go through a huge.

Like, he had to be humble, but he still ended up being, like, one of the greatest apostles out there. So.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was my point. That reminded me earlier. Yeah, you reminded me earlier.

I wanted to do a Paul quote and forgot, but because somewhere in one of the epistles, Paul writes of, like, I forgive because I was forgiven. Like, I. I've been forgiven so much that I'm so forgiving.

And I think that is part of why Iroh was so quick to forgive Zuko and so compassionate, is because he knows how wrong he was. So. Yeah, anyway.

And it also is why Zuko becomes who he becomes.

Zuko's awesome.

Zuko is awesome.

Ephesians 432, just by the way.

Thank you. Period. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So one last time. Gonna set it up again. Set it up for TJ to bring us all home.

Tj, we talked a lot about, like, podcasting managers, can we be an iroh, or how do we keep from being an Ozai, all that kind of stuff. Balancing humility and drive. Earlier we were talking about Iroh, and someone said, he's very content with what he has.

What's the difference of being content and being complacent?

Because when I think of the opposite of drive, I think complacent, but when I think of the opposite of this honor, super Ozai kind of it's all about me, I think of this contemptness Walk me through this. Why is that what I think?

Contentedness is easy to demonize because it is associated with comfort, immovability. To some people, being content means you don't want it bad enough.

Being content does not necessarily mean you're not going to get more, you're not going to try for more. Being content means you are happy right now. What you have now is enough. It's not saying anything about your future.

It's just saying for what I have, for who I am right now, this is enough.

Can I be content and still have a drive for more?

Like are those things like not exactly the same time? It's like a tiny little switch.

Just flip it on at work and he drive there. It works over. I'm content now. Yeah, okay.

Yeah, yeah, I think so. To me, being content is very important.

Why is that?

It's very important because it allows. Well, just because I am really. But I've seen a lot of lives ruined by over ambition.

Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.

Which hard to do. It's a lot harder to ruin your life with over ambition than, you know, complacency, but it can happen.

Yeah, yeah, good words. Well, I'm not following up any of that. You guys are just wiser than me, I think.

But does anybody else have anything they want to add about the Iro's Ozai's Avatar, the last airbender? Why we need to watch Legend of Korra? Anything?

Yeah, I think you just should finish it. All of you should probably just finish it. It's fine. It's not as good as the last airbender, but it's cool.

Few things are, you get to see.

Zuko, you get to see Toph.

I've seen Toph. I didn't know Zuko was in it.

Yeah, yeah, he is. And he's awesome. And he looks like Avatar Roku.

Well, I think he sold me.

He's like 116.

Yeah, I think he sold me.

He's super old. But it is extremely important, in my opinion, to be quick to admit when you don't know the answer to something.

To answer your question that I never actually got asked is you should always be willing to admit that you don't know.

Is that the question of how to be an Iroh and not a Ozai? Yeah, I agree. Ozai was never going to change his mind or his ways. And Iroh was much too high a cost.

Hopefully all of us can learn to see when we're wrong. Before family members get murdered in war.

Before personally leading Your son to death in a battle.

Yeah, hopefully we can all be a little less stubborn than that. Which is crazy because Iroh. Iroh's the man. But I still hope that I would learn quicker than that. Maybe I will, because I know of Iroh.

Maybe that'll help me be quicker to change my mind.

Yeah.

Alright, well then with that, I think it's time to go ahead and start wrapping this one up. And of course, we always like to start with, well, announcing what the bonus question is gonna be.

We will be asking what kind of teacher or mentor might Zuko grow up to be? And it sounds like some of us. No. So that'll be fun. Yeah. But we're gonna talk about it anyway, because I couldn't think of another bonus question.

I thought it'd be fun. Without further ado though. Recommendations, tj? Other than Legend of Korra, what else do you think we should check out?

It keeps the spirit of the series, I think, very well. I'm not going to say it is.

As good as the other three, but.

I don't think there's a bad night at the Museum movie anymore. Yeah, shout out. Amy Adams as Amelia Earhart. Generational performance.

All right, all right, I like it. Alex, what about you? What's. Any recommendations for everybody?

Books.

Just read a book.

I've been getting back to reading.

Read the Way of Yang Chen.

All reading counts.

Read the Yang Chen book.

You know, I haven't read that one.

You get to learn about more Avatars.

Yeah, I need, I need to read those because I see them in the bookstore and I don't know, the thought of reading all the extra stuff, I. I just feel like that's a hole that I don't think I prepared to jump in just quite yet.

I think.

Oh, thank good.

She's so cool.

Well, man, my recommendation, really specific and random, I guess, but it's fine. Jak and Daxter the Last Frontier. I think everybody from like my generation understands, like Jak and Daxter. Jak 2 Jack 3 were like legendary games.

I think people sleep on Jak and Daxter the. The Lost Frontier because it came out on psp. I replayed all the Jak and Daxter games at the end of last year and God, it's just so good.

It's so underrated. More people need to check it out. Liz, any recommendations for those listening?

I just watched Nina the Starry bride. Really cute. 12 episode Rom com anime.

All right. The rom com thing actually. Guilty pleasure. I love rom com, so I might actually check it out.

Well, the stinky thing is because, you know, it's a 12 episode left on the cliffhanger, but the monster manga is still ongoing and updating. So I'm about to switch to the manga.

Nice.

I. I actually have another recommendation specifically for Liz. I think you should read Sumiki Ugami's Ordinary Life or not so ordinary.

I feel like that sounds familiar. So text that to me. I might have already seen it.

I read it also.

It's ongoing.

Just so that TJ will be proud of me. I'm on my third manga. Yeah. Yeah.

Because I read all the Kingdom Hearts and then I've been reading one piece where I'm at and I had a trip recently so I needed to download some books and I downloaded the entirety of Vinland Saga. I love that manga. That's awesome.

It's so good.

Yeah. So with that, I also recommend that Vinland Saga manga is fantastic.

Phenomenal. Top 10 all time.

So good that though we're gonna go ahead and start finish wrapping this up. We already started. We were just slow. Remember. Rate and review this show wherever you get your podcast.

It does really help us, makes people notice that we exist, which is good. It helps us with our drive to be the number one geek podcast.

Also want to thank one of our financial supporters, Gunner Burgum perhaps is how you pronounce his name. Gunner, you're awesome. I appreciate you even if I can't say your name.

And I hope anyone listening, if they want their own shout out that they remember, they can become an official member of C Smackag on our website. Website. It's in the description. Also the same website, you can get one of the faces behind us T shirts for this year's annual theme. And it's awesome.

And get ready for our next episode. It's going to be on the main feed, the next one in this series about the faces behind Optimus prime and Megatron.

And TJ will be back for that with Will Rose. So be looking for that guys. And that episode will have a link to the playlist list of the series. So there'll be more than one episode at that point.

And of course, remember, yeah, we're all a chosen people, especially Uncle Iroh, a geekdom of priest.